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Aquillion
2019-03-27, 12:32 PM
This spell came up on the "useless spells" list, and it occurred to me that it has a lot more potential than people give it credit for, especially if your DM is lenient with it (which they might be, given its reputation for being weak.)

Things to consider. First, let's review the DMG definition of an object:


For the purpose of these rules, an object is a discrete, inanimate item like a window, door, sword, book, table, chair, or stone, not a building or a vehicle that is composed of many other objects.

1. It can obviously be used for tracking if you're familiar with anything the target carries, though its range is a bit short.

2. When naming a category of object, how specific can that category be? In particular, something like "a gold coin not in the possession of my party" is useful. (You can also stow your stuff in extra-dimensional storage and close it.)

3. Provided you can exclude your own stuff via one of those methods, searching for "magic items" has a lot of potential - it can both find treasure and identify potential enemies (since high-level human enemies will often have magic items.)

4. The list of objects above heavily implies that "secret door" or "pressure plate" or "tripwire" is an object. "Trap" might not qualify, sadly, since some DMs will probably tell you it's composed of many other objects. "Hidden switch" or "hidden lever" almost certainly qualifies. "Hidden mechanism" might or might not (clarify that you're searching for the category of concealed components used to activate or deactivate things - it's a discrete category of objects, if hard to describe in an all-encompassing way.)

5. Some categories of objects could get into in-depth divination territory. This is unlikely to pass most DMs (since it doesn't really fit the list of categories), but you could try eg. "something that reveals the Duke's darkest secrets" or "the object, within range, that the lich-king most wants to conceal."

6. Searching for weapons is another way to locate enemies (again, you'll need a way to conceal or hide your own weapons, either by convincing your DM you can append "not in our possession" as part of the category or by putting them outside it.) Searching for spellbooks or spell component pouches can help you locate spellcasters.

...as an interesting aside, while most people dismiss the ability to double-cast Locate Object with your mount, it actually has some valuable interactions with these tricks. If your mount is flying or stealthy, you can send it ahead (out of range of your party) and cast Locate Object through it to scan for weapons, magic items, coins, and so on. Depending on how your DM adjudicates mount-casting spells, you might even be able to have it concentrate on searching for you while you do other things.

LudicSavant
2019-03-27, 02:07 PM
Just throwing in what I already said about it in the other thread:

I think Locate Objects is sometimes underrated. I've seen creative players get some great use out of it, especially in "Combat as War" style campaigns where fights are often decided before initiative is rolled.

Not only can Locate Object drastically cut down the time searching for a very specific needle in a haystack (which can occasionally be gamechanging on its own), it can also just detect the presence of a more general type of thing coming within range of you ("Alternatively, the spell can locate the nearest object of a particular kind, such as a certain kind of apparel, jewelry, furniture, tool, or weapon"). So, for example, you can detect the nearest stormtrooper uniform within 1000 feet, no questions asked. You even know its exact location (via triangulation), speed, and direction of movement.

Stealth rolls and illusions and walls aren't going to stop you from knowing that X kind of object is within 1000 feet of you. I've seen this used to good effect to foil assassins, trailing targets undetectably for investigations (you can even plant the tracking object yourself), evade search parties or guard patrols, set up brutal ambushes (complete with a fully pre-buffed party and rigged-up terrain), and the like.

In one particular case, there was a campaign with two rival adventuring parties (at the time, they were level 6). One of the adventuring parties was highly optimized to get surprise, win initiative, and wipe the floor with basically anything in a round. Builds included things like "Deep Stalker Revised Ranger 3 / Assassin Rogue 3," (which often did over 100 damage before an enemy could act, had advantage on stealth and initiative, and couldn't be picked out by darkvision... at level 6).

The deadly alpha strike party set an ambush, and got TPKed by the rival PCs. Why? Because the rival PCs used Locate Object for something they knew everyone in the rival party had: A holy symbol of the deity they all worshiped. The ambush was completely foiled, and the users of Locate Object set up the entire field to their benefit before springing their trap, complete with stacked buffs from potions and the like. There was no question in anyone's minds that if it had not been for Locate Object, the other party would have been TPKed instead. There was also a fair deal of psychological impact to know that the emblem of their god was what caused their downfall.

Aquillion
2019-03-27, 02:12 PM
Thinking about it, the "bard with Find Greater Mount" trick (or a wizard who got one via a Ring of Spell Storing) seems most interesting to me. The really big problem with Locate Object is its short range.

Most of the guides for Mount / Greater Mount tricks I saw dismissed the interaction with Locate Object, but it's actually quite powerful, since you can eg. cast Locate Object, have your Pegasus duplicate it and maintain concentration for you, then send it flying around to search for treasure or magic objects or the BBEG's staff or whatever.

Granted there is a major problem with this, one that's shared by most divinations of this sort - you will find what the DM wants you to find. Once that meta-reasoning sinks in, knowledge and detection effects (outside of ones directly applicable in combat) seem weaker. That's another reason why its effectiveness depends on your DM - with many DMs, you could have just spent a bit more time and made some Investigation checks and turned up the same thing.

Chronos
2019-03-27, 02:19 PM
I think that "find the nearest magic item" would be out of bounds, because it's not Detect Magic, and has no way of knowing if the items it's finding are magic or not. You could do "find the nearest wand", but you might get a magical wand, or you might get a wizard's nonmagical spell focus, or you might get an orchestral conductor's baton.

Aquillion
2019-03-27, 02:31 PM
I think that "find the nearest magic item" would be out of bounds, because it's not Detect Magic, and has no way of knowing if the items it's finding are magic or not. You could do "find the nearest wand", but you might get a magical wand, or you might get a wizard's nonmagical spell focus, or you might get an orchestral conductor's baton.In terms of balance, keep in mind that it's a spell level higher than detect magic, and (used that way) has many limitations - it will only find one magic object (the nearest one), it can't spot non-object magic, it won't tell you the type of magic, and so on. Also, importantly, detect magic can be cast as a ritual.

In terms of thematics and RAW, I feel that "a magic weapon" is a type of weapon, and I don't see any reason why it couldn't determine that. It's divination magic, after all - why wouldn't be able to determine if a weapon is magic? (I mean... the entire mechanism via which it works is unclear, but I don't see why "find the nearest magic weapon" is any more implausible than "find the nearest red weapon" or "find the nearest shortsword." Nothing in the spell implies that it's using human senses. If anything, finding magic weapons seems like it might be easier than finding red ones.)

Imbalance
2019-03-27, 02:56 PM
If "find me an empty barstool" isn't valid pretext to always have it prepared, I don't know what is.

JoeJ
2019-03-27, 03:30 PM
For settings where magic is widespread, I would expect Locate Object to be one of the more common spells that mages would be hired to cast. And spell casters working for the city watch would commonly have it prepared as well. These are mostly NPCs, obviously, but it's something for the DM to keep in mind when creating the setting.

LudicSavant
2019-03-27, 03:57 PM
For settings where magic is widespread, I would expect Locate Object to be one of the more common spells that mages would be hired to cast. And spell casters working for the city watch would commonly have it prepared as well. These are mostly NPCs, obviously, but it's something for the DM to keep in mind when creating the setting.

Yeah! It's one of those low level spells that a DM should remember when worldbuilding. :smallsmile:

JackPhoenix
2019-03-27, 05:10 PM
If "find me an empty barstool" isn't valid pretext to always have it prepared, I don't know what is.

"Find my keys"?

Man_Over_Game
2019-03-27, 05:12 PM
If looking for magic items is too broad, could you specify a specific magic item?

Would looking for a Bag of Holding to steal be too out-of-bounds?

samcifer
2019-03-27, 05:17 PM
Well... In the case of my group, we had a fighter/rogue who loved to eat spam with rice (the player of that character as well) and we were sick of it so we tried to get rid of all of his spam. When he hid it on the ship, I used Locate Object to find the spam so that we could throw it all overboard.

Chronos
2019-03-27, 05:24 PM
But did you also find the spam, spam, spam, rice, and spam?

nickl_2000
2019-03-27, 07:11 PM
I just used it to find a dwarven graveyard buried under years of snow. Cast the spell, the wind walked around in the general area where we knew it was until we found it