MoI Recharge Trick Confusion

[Zombulian]

Hey all, I was just looking at the Psionic Tricks handbook and had a question about the first trick in the list.


The Recharge Trick uses Midnight Augmentation, Linked Power and Metapower to manifest Bestow Power (linked to a 1st level power) with a lower power point cost than power points bestowed by Bestow Power. This allows your psychic to do his thing, all day long.
Feats: Midnight Augmentation, Linked Power, Metapower, Psicrystal Containment
Powers: Bestow Power, a first level power (Here I use Synchronicity)
Method:
1. Focus yourself and your Psicrystal

2. You choose Synchronicity to be effected by Midnight Augmentation, investing one essentia

3. Expend your Psychic Focus to manifest a Synchronicity (which you have chosen to permanently join Linked Power to by Metapower)

4. Expend your Psicrystal's Psychic Focus to manifest Synchronicity, linked to Bestow Power (Costs reduced by Midnight Augmentation for -1, and Metapower for -2, reducing the cost of the Hustle/Bestow Power combo to 1 PP)

5. Refocus yourself and your Psicrystal (Doable in one round, if you choose Synchronicity as your 1st level power)

6. Repeat 3-6

Minimum Level: 3 (Higher without Flaws + Human)

While I could be posting in the thread, Adonis53 already asked part of my question and no one seemed to answer him, so here I am.
For one, why is Synchronicity required to be manifested twice? Or is it just that step 3&4 are specifying each time you expend your Psionic Focus on the same manifestation?
Additionally, does this trick even work? It specifies use of Midnight Augmentation, but the trick doesn’t actually involve any augmenting. Are we just assuming that MA counts towards metapsionics as well? Is there text to support that?

[Darrin]

While I could be posting in the thread, Adonis53 already asked part of my question and no one seemed to answer him, so here I am.
For one, why is Synchronicity required to be manifested twice? Or is it just that step 3&4 are specifying each time you expend your Psionic Focus on the same manifestation?
Additionally, does this trick even work? It specifies use of Midnight Augmentation, but the trick doesn’t actually involve any augmenting. Are we just assuming that MA counts towards metapsionics as well? Is there text to support that?

The trick is described badly, and whoever wrote it may not understand how Linked Power, Metapower, and Midnight Augmentation works. (They also mention hustle, which isn't supposed to be part of the combo?) You're only manifesting synchronicity once. However, since you're using two metapsionic feats on it, you have to spend your psionic focus twice, once for Linked Power and once for Midnight Augmentation. Hence why you need Psicrystal Containment (Psicrystal Affinity is a prereq but not listed in the trick). Here's my take on what the trick is trying to do:

1. Focus yourself and your psicrystal.

2. In the morning when you do your soulmeld stuff, invest 1 essentia into Midnight Augmentation, selecting synchronicity as the power you want to augment.

3. Synchronicity has already been modified by Metapower to Linked Power. This is a permanent modification, although it's not clear from the rules if you have to assign the second power permanently. My take on it is you can choose a different second power each time you manifest synchronicity, but presumably bestow power is your default choice and you don't often have an excuse to pick any other power. The total cost to manifest synchronicity + bestow power = 1 + 3 - 2 = 2 PP.

4. Manifest synchronicity, paying 1 PP to manifest it due to Midnight Augmentation (2 - 1 = 1 PP). You need to expend your psionic focus twice, once for yourself to activate Linked Power, and once from your psicrystal to activate Midnight Augmentation.

5. Next round, bestow power manifests as per Linked Power, and gives you 2 PP back. You get an extra readied action from synchronicity and your usual allotment of actions, and can use them to regain your psionic focii. However, you'll need another feat, Psionic Meditation, to regain both focii in the same round.

6. Rinse & Repeat.

Now... does the trick work? Well... maybe not exactly? The rules aren't entirely clear... the 1 PP provided by Midnight Augmentation can only be used to pay the *augmentation* costs for the selected power, not the basic activation cost. But due to the vague wording of Linked Power/Metapower, it's not clear if paying the additional PP cost of the second linked power is an *augmentation* or just part of the basic cost.

If you're looking for a more ironclad way to recharge your PP this way, invest 2 essentia into Midnight Augmentation and then *augment* bestow power by 3 PP to get 4 PP. Then the cost is 1 PP for synchronicity, 1 PP for bestow power (-2 PP via Metapower), and 1 PP to augment bestow power (-2 PP via Midnight Augmentation). So spending 3 PP gets you back 4 PP next round.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Unless you've got all of those powers and feats already, or your DM won't let you do the others, try one of the myriad other ways to recharge your power point pool. Many of them are far less resource intensive and work MUCH faster.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?177889-Brainstorm-for-Psionic-Tricks-Tactics-and-Combos-Handbook&p=20249100&viewfull=1#post20249100), for instance, refills your pp pool much more quickly, and it only takes 1 feat and about 10,300 gp for a +1 powerleech sap. It does require your psicrystal to take a [Host] feat, though.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Bestow Power doesn't say you can't target yourself with it. Just Midnight Augmentation 2 essentia into Bestow Power, and for every 1 additional powerpoint you augment it with, it bestows an extra 2 powerpoints. If you spend 5 powerpoints on it, it will give back 6, and it only gets more efficient at higher levels.

[Zombulian]

The trick is described badly, and whoever wrote it may not understand how Linked Power, Metapower, and Midnight Augmentation works. (They also mention hustle, which isn't supposed to be part of the combo?) You're only manifesting synchronicity once. However, since you're using two metapsionic feats on it, you have to spend your psionic focus twice, once for Linked Power and once for Midnight Augmentation. Hence why you need Psicrystal Containment (Psicrystal Affinity is a prereq but not listed in the trick). Here's my take on what the trick is trying to do:

1. Focus yourself and your psicrystal.

2. In the morning when you do your soulmeld stuff, invest 1 essentia into Midnight Augmentation, selecting synchronicity as the power you want to augment.

3. Synchronicity has already been modified by Metapower to Linked Power. This is a permanent modification, although it's not clear from the rules if you have to assign the second power permanently. My take on it is you can choose a different second power each time you manifest synchronicity, but presumably bestow power is your default choice and you don't often have an excuse to pick any other power. The total cost to manifest synchronicity + bestow power = 1 + 3 - 2 = 2 PP.

4. Manifest synchronicity, paying 1 PP to manifest it due to Midnight Augmentation (2 - 1 = 1 PP). You need to expend your psionic focus twice, once for yourself to activate Linked Power, and once from your psicrystal to activate Midnight Augmentation.

5. Next round, bestow power manifests as per Linked Power, and gives you 2 PP back. You get an extra readied action from synchronicity and your usual allotment of actions, and can use them to regain your psionic focii. However, you'll need another feat, Psionic Meditation, to regain both focii in the same round.

6. Rinse & Repeat.

Now... does the trick work? Well... maybe not exactly? The rules aren't entirely clear... the 1 PP provided by Midnight Augmentation can only be used to pay the *augmentation* costs for the selected power, not the basic activation cost. But due to the vague wording of Linked Power/Metapower, it's not clear if paying the additional PP cost of the second linked power is an *augmentation* or just part of the basic cost.

If you're looking for a more ironclad way to recharge your PP this way, invest 2 essentia into Midnight Augmentation and then *augment* bestow power by 3 PP to get 4 PP. Then the cost is 1 PP for synchronicity, 1 PP for bestow power (-2 PP via Metapower), and 1 PP to augment bestow power (-2 PP via Midnight Augmentation). So spending 3 PP gets you back 4 PP next round.

The second one was the answer I found on a different thread, but my lunch break was ending at work so I didn’t have time to edit my post. The second one seems much more reasonable to me, as the first requires a few assumptions about the definition of augmented powers that I’m not comfortable with. Also obviously the description from that thread was poorly done. Thanks for clarifying!


Bestow Power doesn't say you can't target yourself with it. Just Midnight Augmentation 2 essentia into Bestow Power, and for every 1 additional powerpoint you augment it with, it bestows an extra 2 powerpoints. If you spend 5 powerpoints on it, it will give back 6, and it only gets more efficient at higher levels.

Unfortunately the augment cost of Bestow Power is 3pp, not 1. Unless you mean to say that having 2 essentia in MA means that each 3pp block of augmentation is reduced? I’ve always considered PP in augmentation to be continuous, not discrete units.


Unless you've got all of those powers and feats already, or your DM won't let you do the others, try one of the myriad other ways to recharge your power point pool. Many of them are far less resource intensive and work MUCH faster.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?177889-Brainstorm-for-Psionic-Tricks-Tactics-and-Combos-Handbook&p=20249100&viewfull=1#post20249100), for instance, refills your pp pool much more quickly, and it only takes 1 feat and about 10,300 gp for a +1 powerleech sap. It does require your psicrystal to take a [Host] feat, though.

Heh, that’s a pretty goofy one.

[Zombulian]

Wait wait wait wait wait wait

Are you saying a Psion at level 6 (for Essentia Capacity 2 and Manifester Level 6) with the following two feats
1 Random Incarnum Feat that gives 1 Essentia
3 Midnight Augmentation

has INFINITE POWER POINTS?

WHY AM I JUST LEARNING ABOUT THIS NOW????

Because I think it’s wrong.

[Darrin]

Wait wait wait wait wait wait

Are you saying a Psion at level 6 (for Essentia Capacity 2) with the following two feats
1 Random Incarnum Feat that gives 1 Essentia
3 Midnight Augmentation

has INFINITE POWER POINTS?


Only if you consider each augment step as a separate augmentation cost, and not the entire augmentation as a single cost. Based on the way I read the text of Midnight Augmentation... I believe the reduction is only applied once. So:

A) Bestow power augmented once = 3 PP + 3 PP - 2 PP = spend 4 PP, get 4 PP (break even).
B) Bestow power augmented twice = 3 PP + 6 PP - 2 PP = spend 7 PP, get 6 PP (losing PP).
etc.

I think Biff is arguing that you could apply the -2 PP to each augment separately...

A) Bestow power augmented once = 3 PP + (3 PP - 2 PP) = spend 4 PP, get 4 PP (break even).
B) Bestow power augmented twice = 3 PP + (3 PP - 2 PP) + (3 PP - 2 PP) = spend 5 PP, get 6 PP (infinite combo).
etc.

I don't think it works that way.

Although if you're a Wilder, you can Wild Surge for 1 PP, use Midnight Augmentation for 2 PP, and get infinite PP that way: 3 PP + 1 PP (Wild Surge) + 2 PP (Midnight) = spend 3 PP, get 4 PP. You may have to deal with some psychic enervation, but you will get more PP than you lose in the long run. Wilder 4 can pull this off with Wild Surge +2 (2 PP) and Midnight Augmentation (1 PP), averaging about 5 PP per minute.

[Zombulian]

Ooh that Wilder trick is very nice. Very resource efficient feat-wise.

[Darrin]

There's got to be a clarification somewhere. An official example or something like that.

Nope. MoI came out towards the tail end of 3.5, and if there was any errata for it, then it probably wound up in the same place as the ToB errata.


Ooh that Wilder trick is very nice. Very resource efficient feat-wise.

Well, yeah, but it still doesn't solve any of the basic problems with Wilders: your power selection stinks, and you get punished for trying to use your class abilities.

[frogglesmash]

One of the simplest recharge tricks, and my personal favourite, is using Earth Tower, and a Torc of Power Preservation to reduce the cost of all powers you manifest by 2, including bestow power.

[frogglesmash]

Torc is like 36,000gp man, you ain't getting that until well into high levels.

Never said it was cheap.

[Darrin]

So... Midnight doesn't say I need to expend the focus to use the feat. Only that if I do expend it I get the cost reduction. So... by this language, I can expend the focus for Linked Power and Midnight Augmentation's effect kicks in because of it resulting in a grand total of 4 PP reduction. Am I wrong?


You could be. It's not clear if expending your psionic focus for Linked Power also satisfies the cost of using Midnight Augmentation. It's just as easy to argue that Midnight Augmentation requires its own expenditure of a psionic focus to gain the benefits.

Psicrystal Containment can provide an additional psionic focus, but that requires an additional two psionic feats to get the combo going.

Strictly by RAW... Midnight Augmentation doesn't explicitly require you to expend your psionic focus just to activate Midnight Augmentation. If you expend your psionic focus for some other reason, such as using Linked Power (or any other [metapsionic] feat), then this would appear to satisfy the conditions for using Midnight Augmentation. However, when I try to use that reasoning in Iron Chef... I usually get reamed on my Elegance score.

[Quertus]

Wait wait wait wait wait wait

Are you saying a Psion at level 6 (for Essentia Capacity 2 and Manifester Level 6) with the following two feats
1 Random Incarnum Feat that gives 1 Essentia
3 Midnight Augmentation

has INFINITE POWER POINTS?

WHY AM I JUST LEARNING ABOUT THIS NOW????

Psionics have anyways had numerous ways to achieve INFINITE POWER (points). My table was going infinite within minutes of getting the books.

(Well, it was days before we played, but you get the idea)

[Troacctid]

So I don't think it works with synchronicity, but I do think it works with bestow power linked to another bestow power.

The first bestow power, augmented once with Midnight Augmentation, costs (3 + 3 - 2). Link it with a second bestow power, unaugmented, for an extra (3 - 2) thanks to Metapower. Total cost is (3 + 3 - 2) + (3 - 2) = 5, total power points regained (2 + 2 + 2) = 6. I would rule that Midnight Metamagic does require you to expend psionic focus, but that's easy enough to fix with Psicrystal Containment.


Awesome! Reality Revision gives me access to scrolls of Simulacrum so I'm gonna give psionics a real try!
Reality revision produces psionic items, not magic items. You can't make a scroll of simulacrum as a psionic item because there is no psionic simulacrum spell to base it off of. Relevant rule:

If an item includes a spell prerequisite, but the effect of the item does not directly implement that spell, then a psionic power of similar flavor can be substituted. If the item replicates a spell effect, then only the psionic version of that spell or a psionic power that replicates the same effect can be used to satisfy the prerequisite.
You could try mind seed, though. It has a similar result, albeit through much more evil means.

[Crichton]

You forgot this part



Create a nonpsionic item of up to 25,000 gp in value.


I think the only way you could make a case for that is if your campaign is using the nonstandard 'psionics is different' in place of the standard psionics/magic transparency.

Even then it'd be a tough sell to most DMs


Not to say I wouldn't try, though.

[Darrin]

So if I understand this correctly....
1. Expend Psionic Focus to make Azure Talent (0 essentia) to Azure Talent (1 essentia) for 1 round.
2. As Azure Talent now has 1 essentia, it provides you 2 bonus power points.
3. Use those two power points and 1 of your own power points to manifest Bestow Power on yourself to gain 2 power points (net +1 PP)
4. Round ends, Azure Talent goes back to 0 essentia.
5. Repeat 1.

Is my interpretation correct? And does this work?


Feels a bit dodgy... but rules-wise, this is somewhat more straightforward than using Midnight Augmentation. The key text is, "treated as if it had essentia invested in it equal to its maximum essentia capacity", and I'm not finding a lot of ambiguity there.

If MoI had gotten a little more time invested in editing and playtesting, the designers might have caught this and done something about it, but by RAW it looks like it works.

[martixy]

Been there already, so I'll just quote myself:


Here's the thing though:

Midnight targets augmentation cost.
Metapower targets metapsionic cost.

I have not been able to find a definitive statement that metapsionic cost counts as an augmentation.
And if they are separate... the trick does not work. (Midnight has nothing to target, therefore you gain no cost reduction from it and come up even instead of ahead.)

What you need to do then is:
Manifest Augmented bestow power linked to bestow power.
Aug. BP = 6 (-2, Midnight), +4PP
Linked BP = 3 (-2 Metapower), +2PP
Total cost after deductions: 5
PP gained: 6

What this requires is:
1. Another feat to grant you an additional essentia point you can put into Midnight.
2. Character level 6 or above, so Midnight's essentia capacity rises above 1.

TBH, I'd love for the cheaper version to work, but...

As far as time goes(in rounds):
1. Focus yourself
2. Focus your psycrystal.
3. Manifest your sequence.

This does indeed result in a 1/3 pp per round effective recharge speed.
Psionic meditation increases the rate to 1/2 per round.
Further, if the syncronicty version is deigned to work... then you can do it at a rate of 1 per round.
0. Focus x2
1. Use standard action to manifest Syncronicity combo.
1.5. Use sync action to gain 1st focus.
2. Use move action to gain 2nd focus. Go to 1.

Epic allows further improvements, but that's a whole 'nother ballpark.

[Troacctid]

To further add to this, Azure Talent renews its bonus points every time you reinvest essentia. That's why it has a 24 hour limit. So saying re-applying PI doesn't grant you new BPP in a 24 hour window is false because the feat is designed to give you more BPP when its essentia drops down to 0 and back up again. PI just does this once a round.
The bonus power points aren't spent first like temporary hit points are. You start with 20 pp, go up to 24, spend 3 down to 21, gain 2 up to 23, and then lose the 4 again when the feat wears off, down to 19.

[Crichton]

The bonus power points aren't spent first like temporary hit points are. You start with 20 pp, go up to 24, spend 3 down to 21, gain 2 up to 23, and then lose the 4 again when the feat wears off, down to 19.

Clarification: It's not printed in the rules that they're spent first. But nor is it printed in the rules that they aren't. It's an undefined aspect of manifesting.




But you do raise a good point about whether power points from separate pools are tracked separately so I will look into that.



So far as I know, it's not printed anywhere. The only mention of how 'bonus power points' work that I could find is the Ability Scores and Bonus Power Points chart. And even there it doesn't outline what happens when the numbers change in the middle of an adventuring day.


What happens to an 8th level Psion with 18 natural Int who's wearing a Headband of Intellect +2 if he takes it off mid day, for example? He has 20 PP total to start with, 4 of which are 'bonus power points' from his increase in Int due to the Headband.

Say he spends half of those points and is at 10PP, then he takes off the Headband, returning his Int to 18. Does he lose those 4 points, because 4 points is the difference the Int made in his total PP reserve? Does he lose half (2) of the 'bonus' points, since he took off the Headband when he was at half his reserve, returning him to half of the 16 PP reserve his 18 Int gives him? Or does he lose no PP, since he already spent those 4 'bonus' points?


The answer is: The rules don't say.

Same goes (I think) for 'bonus power points' gained from Azure Talent, unless someone has a citation elsewhere? I admit, I only used the SRD, and my (often faulty) memory of other sources.

[Troacctid]

Interesting. But according to you this will happen.
20 PP, 4 BPP from feat
Use all your PP to 0
Rest and regain 20 PP
Once 24 hours are up you go down to 16 PP.
According to you, you must rest after the 24 hours are up to receive the benefit of this feat.

My original point was, the feat is designed to generate additional PP when its essentia goes down to 0 and back up again, and all PI does is change that 24 hours to 1 round. I don't think your interpretation is quite right because your interpretation is devastating when the feat is used normally. But you do raise a good point about whether power points from separate pools are tracked separately so I will look into that.

But by RAW, the feat does not say you lose 2 PP for every essentia it loses after the 24 hours, so to me it looks like the gain is one way.
You recover all your power points, including bonus power points, when you rest for 8 hours. So it's not an issue.


Clarification: It's not printed in the rules that they're spent first. But nor is it printed in the rules that they aren't. It's an undefined aspect of manifesting.

So far as I know, it's not printed anywhere. The only mention of how 'bonus power points' work that I could find is the Ability Scores and Bonus Power Points chart. And even there it doesn't outline what happens when the numbers change in the middle of an adventuring day.


What happens to an 8th level Psion with 18 natural Int who's wearing a Headband of Intellect +2 if he takes it off mid day, for example? He has 20 PP total to start with, 4 of which are 'bonus power points' from his increase in Int due to the Headband.

Say he spends half of those points and is at 10PP, then he takes off the Headband, returning his Int to 18. Does he lose those 4 points, because 4 points is the difference the Int made in his total PP reserve? Does he lose half (2) of the 'bonus' points, since he took off the Headband when he was at half his reserve, returning him to half of the 16 PP reserve his 18 Int gives him? Or does he lose no PP, since he already spent those 4 'bonus' points?


The answer is: The rules don't say.

Same goes (I think) for 'bonus power points' gained from Azure Talent, unless someone has a citation elsewhere? I admit, I only used the SRD, and my (often faulty) memory of other sources.
There's two possibilities as I see it.

1. The bonus power points only affect your power point maximum, not your current power points. You do not lose power points when the essentia leaves the feat; however, you also do not gain power points when you invest essentia in the feat, unless you recover your power points for the day afterwards.

2. The bonus power points affect both your current and maximum power points. You gain power points when you invest essentia in the feat; however, since it affects your current PP total, you also lose power points if the feat loses essentia.

I prefer the second ruling because it matches the precedent of bonus hit points from Constitution.

The infinite PP trick here is trying to have it both ways—when you add essentia, Azure Talent affects your current and maximum PP, but when you take the essentia away, suddenly it only affects your maximum. But you can't have your cake and eat it too. Ambiguous RAW doesn't mean you get to have rulings that aren't consistent with themselves.

[Crichton]

There's two possibilities as I see it.

1. The bonus power points only affect your power point maximum, not your current power points. You do not lose power points when the essentia leaves the feat; however, you also do not gain power points when you invest essentia in the feat, unless you recover your power points for the day afterwards.

That would be consistent with gaining PP from high ability score modifiers, and I guess I've always assumed that's how it works when you increase your manifesting score from some source, such as the Headband of Intellect, though I can't point to a citation for that, off the top of my head. It's not consistent with the wording of Azure Talent, though, since it's pretty clear they don't expect you to invest your essentia in Azure Talent and THEN rest before gaining the benefit of it, then lose it all again the next day, since it's (normally) a 24 hour effect.


2. The bonus power points affect both your current and maximum power points. You gain power points when you invest essentia in the feat; however, since it affects your current PP total, you also lose power points if the feat loses essentia.

This would account for Azure Talent expecting you to have immediate access to the PP it gives, but it doesn't answer the question of how to calculate your remaining PP after the bonus effect ends.



The infinite PP trick here is trying to have it both ways—when you add essentia, Azure Talent affects your current and maximum PP, but when you take the essentia away, suddenly it only affects your maximum. But you can't have your cake and eat it too. Ambiguous RAW doesn't mean you get to have rulings that aren't consistent with themselves.


I'm not sure I'd go quite that far. You're saying you don't use the temp PP first, but you're implying by your calculations that that means you must use them last, thus if the source of the temp PP ceases, you subtract the entire bonus amount from your current total.

Since there isn't an actual rule about it, there is no RAW to cite, but I'd say it's more fair (and more math, sadly), to lose a fraction of them proportionate to your total PP reserve. Thus in my previous example, if you took off the Headband after spending half your reserve, you wouldn't subtract the whole 4 PP from your current PP, but since you had spent half your Int-boosted PP reserve(20), you'd reset your current PP to half your unboosted reserve(16), leaving you with 8 current PP, instead of the 6 PP you'd have under your math (20-4=16, therefore 10-4=6).

[Troacctid]

That would be consistent with gaining PP from high ability score modifiers, and I guess I've always assumed that's how it works when you increase your manifesting score from some source, such as the Headband of Intellect, though I can't point to a citation for that, off the top of my head. It's not consistent with the wording of Azure Talent, though, since it's pretty clear they don't expect you to invest your essentia in Azure Talent and THEN rest before gaining the benefit of it, then lose it all again the next day, since it's (normally) a 24 hour effect.
You don't actually recover power points by resting for 8 hours, you recover them by taking a full-round action to do so after resting for 8 hours. So it works fine.


This would account for Azure Talent expecting you to have immediate access to the PP it gives, but it doesn't answer the question of how to calculate your remaining PP after the bonus effect ends.





I'm not sure I'd go quite that far. You're saying you don't use the temp PP first, but you're implying by your calculations that that means you must use them last, thus if the source of the temp PP ceases, you subtract the entire bonus amount from your current total.
There isn't any first or last. They're from the same pool. These aren't temporary power points. Temporary hit points are only lost first because they're a separate pool (and they specifically say they work that way).


Since there isn't an actual rule about it, there is no RAW to cite, but I'd say it's more fair (and more math, sadly), to lose a fraction of them proportionate to your total PP reserve. Thus in my previous example, if you took off the Headband after spending half your reserve, you wouldn't subtract the whole 4 PP from your current PP, but since you had spent half your Int-boosted PP reserve(20), you'd reset your current PP to half your unboosted reserve(16), leaving you with 8 current PP, instead of the 6 PP you'd have under your math (20-4=16, therefore 10-4=6).
I think literally nothing else in the game works that way? Resource pools aren't tracked as percentages, they're tracked as scalar quantities. We already have very strong precedents in bonus hit points and the eagle's splendor + turn undead interaction.

[Crichton]

You don't actually recover power points by resting for 8 hours, you recover them by taking a full-round action to do so after resting for 8 hours. So it works fine.

That's true, so I guess yeah, you're right. No reason then that AT can't give you access to them right away. Good catch.



There isn't any first or last. They're from the same pool. These aren't temporary power points. Temporary hit points are only lost first because they're a separate pool (and they specifically say they work that way).

Apologies. I referred to them as 'temp PP' not because I equated them with the concept of temp HP, but because using this PI/AT trick, they are, in the literal sense, temporary. Using PI to trigger the benefit of AT only gives you access to the bonus PP for 1 round. I should have used a different term, to avoid confusion with the specific exception rules regarding temp HP, which I wasn't referencing.

If 'they're all from the same pool' as you say, then how can you account for whether it was the bonus PP you had access to during that round that got spent, or your normally accessible PP points that got spent?



Let's compare 2 examples:

A)Psion has a reserve of 20/20 PP. Psion spends 10 PP on manifesting powers. Psion now has 10/20 PP remaining in his PP reserve.

B)Psion has a reserve of 20/20 PP. Psion uses a trick that gives him access to the 2 'bonus PP' from AT, but only for 1 round. Psion now has a reserve of 22/22 PP. Psion spends 10 PP on manifesting powers. Psion now has 12/22 PP remaining in his PP reserve. The round ends, and his max PP reserve is now 20. What's his remaining PP?


If the answer is 10/20 PP, then the bonus PP he had during that round didn't get spent on his manifesting, and he gained zero benefit from them, and the only way he could ever gain any benefit from them would be to manifest all 22PP of his (bonused) PP reserve in that single round before it ended and the bonus PP went away. This is mechanically the same as saying the bonus PP get spent last.

If the answer is 12/20 PP, because he had 22 when he did the manifesting and spent 10, then while there isn't a specific rule saying the bonus PP get used first, that's essentially how it would work.





There has to be some kind of first or last ruling, or some kind of compromise therein, if there are methods for temporarily increasing the Psion's PP reserve, because there has to be some way to account for whether or not those temporarily accessible PP got used while they were there. If there isn't, then they effectively aren't accessible unless you spend the entire reserve before the temporary access to the bonus PP expires.

If it's as you say, +2Current/+2Max at the onset of the bonus, then -2Current/-2Max at the end of the bonus, then the Psion's remaining PP will be the same either way, which makes any source of bonus PP that is in any way temporary pretty much useless, doesn't it?

While the PI/AT trick may or may not be valid(I'm pretty undecided on it, personally), that's not the only source of 'bonus PP' that isn't permanent. Wearing/removing ability-boosting magic items is the first I can think of, but there may be others. I would be quite interested to see your breakdown of my earlier example of taking off a Headband of Intellect, just to see your thought process there.


I think literally nothing else in the game works that way? Resource pools aren't tracked as percentages, they're tracked as scalar quantities. We already have very strong precedents in bonus hit points and the eagle's splendor + turn undead interaction.

Perhaps not. It was merely an off-the-cuff attempt to find a fair compromise to the issue(spent half your reserve? then you have half your reserve remaining, even if the max has been reduced).


Having said that, your mention of the Eagle's Splendor/Turn Undead interaction does shed some light on your logic. In essence, you're saying you aren't tracking how many PP the Psion has remaining, but rather tracking how many he's spent, and then comparing that to whatever his max PP is at the moment to determine how many remain? That's my understanding of how the ES/TU interaction works, anyway. Not sure I agree with that logic for PP, but I can see where you'd be coming from.

[Troacctid]

Apologies. I referred to them as 'temp PP' not because I equated them with the concept of temp HP, but because using this PI/AT trick, they are, in the literal sense, temporary. Using PI to trigger the benefit of AT only gives you access to the bonus PP for 1 round. I should have used a different term, to avoid confusion with the specific exception rules regarding temp HP, which I wasn't referencing.

If 'they're all from the same pool' as you say, then how can you account for whether it was the bonus PP you had access to during that round that got spent, or your normally accessible PP points that got spent?



Let's compare 2 examples:

A)Psion has a reserve of 20/20 PP. Psion spends 10 PP on manifesting powers. Psion now has 10/20 PP remaining in his PP reserve.

B)Psion has a reserve of 20/20 PP. Psion uses a trick that gives him access to the 2 'bonus PP' from AT, but only for 1 round. Psion now has a reserve of 22/22 PP. Psion spends 10 PP on manifesting powers. Psion now has 12/22 PP remaining in his PP reserve. The round ends, and his max PP reserve is now 20. What's his remaining PP?


If the answer is 10/20 PP, then the bonus PP he had during that round didn't get spent on his manifesting, and he gained zero benefit from them, and the only way he could ever gain any benefit from them would be to manifest all 22PP of his (bonused) PP reserve in that single round before it ended and the bonus PP went away. This is mechanically the same as saying the bonus PP get spent last.

If the answer is 12/20 PP, because he had 22 when he did the manifesting and spent 10, then while there isn't a specific rule saying the bonus PP get used first, that's essentially how it would work.





There has to be some kind of first or last ruling, or some kind of compromise therein, if there are methods for temporarily increasing the Psion's PP reserve, because there has to be some way to account for whether or not those temporarily accessible PP got used while they were there. If there isn't, then they effectively aren't accessible unless you spend the entire reserve before the temporary access to the bonus PP expires.

If it's as you say, +2Current/+2Max at the onset of the bonus, then -2Current/-2Max at the end of the bonus, then the Psion's remaining PP will be the same either way, which makes any source of bonus PP that is in any way temporary pretty much useless, doesn't it?

While the PI/AT trick may or may not be valid(I'm pretty undecided on it, personally), that's not the only source of 'bonus PP' that isn't permanent. Wearing/removing ability-boosting magic items is the first I can think of, but there may be others. I would be quite interested to see your breakdown of my earlier example of taking off a Headband of Intellect, just to see your thought process there.
Okay, see, the thing is, temporary power points do exist, for exactly this purpose. Azure Talent doesn't use them.

Temporary Power Points

Temporary power points are just like bonus power points, except that they last for only a short time if not used up. Whenever a character with temporary power points spends or loses power points, use the temporary points first.

When a character gains temporary power points, note his current power point reserve, then add the temporary points. When the temporary power points go away, the character's reserve points drop to the previous total score. If the character's power point reserve is already below that total at that time, all the temporary power points have already been lost and the character's power point reserve does not drop.

When temporary power points are lost, they cannot be restored as real power points can be (except with another infusion of temporary power points). Temporary power points do not stack. When a character already has temporary power points and receives another infusion of temporary points, use only the higher number of temporary power points (unless noted otherwise). For example, a character gains 10 temporary power points, then spends 7 points, leaving 3 temporary power points. If the same character then receives another 10 temporary power points, the character winds up with only 10 temporary power points, not 13.

[Crichton]

Okay, see, the thing is, temporary power points do exist, for exactly this purpose. Azure Talent doesn't use them.

Yes, and because Azure Talent doesn't use them, we're stuck trying to figure out how it (and other sources of non-temporary but still not permanent power points) works, interacts, and is otherwise handled.

[Crichton]

Why unequipping and re-equipping headbands of intellect doesn't work:

Wasn't ever talking about un-equipping/re-equipping as a recharge method. Just as an example to try to determine how many PP were left if a character's max PP went down while their reserve wasn't full.




Because you need to wear the headband of intellect for a while to receive bonus power points from it (presumably 8 hours).


As far as I can tell, that's not in the rules anywhere. While it uses Fox's Cunning/Animal Affinity as a prerequisite for crafting, it doesn't inherit any of its rules from that spell/power's text. The magic item's effects are defined entirely and solely by the text entry in the magic item description. In this case that text just says it grants a bonus to Int, and doesn't increase skill points. Nothing else.

Given the lack of exceptions then, an increased Int would immediately grant 'bonus power points' according to the chart.

I've always ruled that it increases your max immediately but doesn't refill current PP up to your new max until you refill normally after rest or from some other source, but that's just my houserule. The text just says a psion gains bonus power points according to their ability score.





This is why the FAQ is also wrong. FAQ says you gain the ability bonuses immediately instead of requiring the ability score bonus to persist for a long time before affecting the creature so the FAQ made up a house rule on the spot and I took that entry seriously.



I don't have any idea what the FAQ says, but as far as I can tell from magic item descriptions, you DO gain the ability bonuses immediately upon putting on the Headband, and the Ability and Manifesters section doesn't add anything regarding a delay in gaining the bonus power points from increasing Int.

[Crichton]

It was bothering me why un-equipping/re-equipping wasn't a recharge method so i looked into it and shared why it can't be used as a recharge method. It has nothing to do with you, other than your comment putting the scenario in my head.

Ah, that makes sense.




This is where you experience just how terribly d&d's rules are written. Animal affinity gave us a general rule that you need to receive an ability bonus for longer than 1min/level to receive benefits like bonus power points. It's not in the general rules you mentioned, but it should be. So who is right here? The spell description or the general rules from the same book? I have to go with spell description because nothing in the general rules contradict that spell description.

I'm not sure I can agree on that whole argument.

1) I don't think a specific spell/power effect has the authority to provide a general rule that then applies to everything else that has a similar effect. Spell/power descriptions outline the specific effects of that spell/power, and nothing else. Unless there's a rule somewhere that says it does, the Animal Affinity text can have no bearing at all on what a magic item of Int bonus can do.

2) A Headband of Intellect takes as its primary crafting prerequisite the spell Fox's Cunning as its prerequisite, so having the alternate psionic prerequisite supply an overriding set of general rules text is an even further stretch, never mind that a crafting prerequisite doesn't actually supply any rules text to the functioning of the item.

3) The general rule for increasing an ability score comes from the SRD entry on ability scores:



When an ability score changes, all attributes associated with that score change accordingly.

So until there's a specific rule that can trump that, putting on a Headband of Intellect results in an immediate bonus to Int, and everything that is associated with the increased score (with the provided exception of no extra skill points).

[Crichton]

We'll just agree to disagree. I believe you get +2/+4/+6 intelligence the moment you equip a headband of intellect and receive an increase to your save DCs immediately. But as for increase in spells per day or power points per day, i think you need to wear the headband longer than 1min/cl for it to take effect. How long? Dunno. If you disagree and believe you immediately get the bonus power points, ok. One thing for sure is that Animal Affinity's enhancement bonus won't be giving you bonus power points.


Fox's Cunning wont be giving you bonus pp either, but if your only source for believing you have to wear the headband longer before you receive the bonus pp from the increased Int score is the text inside a spell/power, then yes, we'll have to agree to disagree. Spell/power descriptions don't have the rules authority to reach outside the spell/power they're describing.

[Crake]

Couldn't you just save yourself all the trouble and just invest 3 essentia in midnight augmentation, then just augment bestow power for 3 free points, getting 4 power points for the cost of 3? Azure talent with your level 1 bonus psionic feat gets you 1 essentia, pick any other midnight feat at level 1 or 3 for 2 essentia, pick up midnight augmentation at level 3 or 5 with your bonus psionic feat for 3 essentia, then level 6 grab improved essentia capacity, boom, 3 essentia in midnight augmentation, apply to bestow power, augment to 6, reduced by 3, get 4 points. 4 feats and absolutely no contention. You've got a feat to spare between level 1-6 as well, so you can grab psionic meditation to regain your focus as a move action, and boom, a reliable 1 power point per round without any magic items and absolutely no room for contention.


We'll just agree to disagree. I believe you get +2/+4/+6 intelligence the moment you equip a headband of intellect and receive an increase to your save DCs immediately. But as for increase in spells per day or power points per day, i think you need to wear the headband longer than 1min/cl for it to take effect. How long? Dunno. If you disagree and believe you immediately get the bonus power points, ok. One thing for sure is that Animal Affinity's enhancement bonus won't be giving you bonus power points.

The int bonus provides an increase to power point capacity, so you could apply the int bonus, then use a recharge trick to give you a temporarily higher pool of power points, but increasing int itself doesn't grant you extra power points, merely just increases your pool, which means when you meditate to get back power points you end up with a larger sum of points.

[Troacctid]

Nothing you've said has actually countered any of my points AFAICT so 🤷


Couldn't you just save yourself all the trouble and just invest 3 essentia in midnight augmentation, then just augment bestow power for 3 free points, getting 4 power points for the cost of 3? Azure talent with your level 1 bonus psionic feat gets you 1 essentia, pick any other midnight feat at level 1 or 3 for 2 essentia, pick up midnight augmentation at level 3 or 5 with your bonus psionic feat for 3 essentia, then level 6 grab improved essentia capacity, boom, 3 essentia in midnight augmentation, apply to bestow power, augment to 6, reduced by 3, get 4 points. 4 feats and absolutely no contention. You've got a feat to spare between level 1-6 as well, so you can grab psionic meditation to regain your focus as a move action, and boom, a reliable 1 power point per round without any magic items and absolutely no room for contention.
You can't invest more essentia in the feat than the level of the power it's keyed to.

[Crake]

You can't invest more essentia in the feat than the level of the power it's keyed to.

Ah there you go, missed that bit.

[Crake]

I don't think there is any room for contention here. You get bonus power points. You lose bonus power points. It's like getting a rocket launcher and then losing the rocket launcher regardless of whether you fired the rocket or not. The confusion started because Troacctid was treating the bonus power points like hitpoints instead of spell slots. I can see how she interpreted power points that way because... well... there's temporary power points even! But yeah, by RAW power points are identical to spell slots so I firmly believe she is incorrect here.

It doesn't work like that, the same way you don't get bonus spell slots when you put on an int item until you regain your spell slots. It's not like con and hp, where the hp comes in from the bottom, an increase in int doesn't grant you bonus power points, it increases your power point capacity, but you have to gain the power points in some other manner, usually meditating at the start of the day to regain your power points.

Otherwise, if it functioned the way you described, you wouldn't need fancy tricks, just when you run out of power points take your headband of int off, then put it back on, you'd "lose" the bonus power points, but since you can't have negative power points, you'd still be at 0, then when you put the headband back on, you'd gain extra power points from increased int, boom, infinite power points.

Except it doesn't work that way.

[gogogome]

Do ability enhancing items (such as the headband of intellect, cloak of charisma, and periapt of wisdom) grant bonus spells to the appropriate spellcasters? The spells these items are based on would seem to prohibit it, but the only things specifically addressed in the item descriptions are skill points.
Yes, you can get extra bonus spells if you have an item that increases the ability score that governs your spellcasting. To get the extra bonus spells, you must wear the item while resting to regain spells and all through your initial daily preparations for spellcasting. (Even characters who don’t prepare spells need to meditate a little while at the beginning of the day; see Daily Readying of spells under the Sorcerers and bards section of Chapter 10 in the PH.)
If you lose the item, you immediately lose the bonus spell slots the item gave you, starting with any uncast spells you have of the appropriate levels.

FAQ agrees with Troacctid. Loss of bonus spell slots start with uncast spell slots.

[Pippin]

The FAQ should not be used to prove or disprove anything though.

[Crichton]

The int bonus provides an increase to power point capacity, so you could apply the int bonus, then use a recharge trick to give you a temporarily higher pool of power points, but increasing int itself doesn't grant you extra power points, merely just increases your pool, which means when you meditate to get back power points you end up with a larger sum of points.


an increase in int doesn't grant you bonus power points, it increases your power point capacity, but you have to gain the power points in some other manner, usually meditating at the start of the day to regain your power points.


Can you provide a rule citation for that?

As I posted earlier, that's how I've always houseruled it, but the more I look at the rules while looking things up for this thread, the more it seems the rules don't say that. They just say 'a character who manifests powers (psions, psychic warriors, and wilders) gains bonus power points according to his key ability score.' Note that it says 'bonus power points' not 'an increased power point capacity.'



It doesn't work like that, the same way you don't get bonus spell slots when you put on an int item until you regain your spell slots.

For that matter, can you link the rules for that? I mean, for a wizard, it makes sense that the bonus slot would be empty until a spell is prepared into it, but the wording in 'Abilities and Spellcasters,' (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#abilitiesAndSpellcasters) where the bonus spells by ability score chart it, doesn't say anything like that.

(This isn't me being obstinate or combative, btw. If there is a rules citation for it, I genuinely would like it. Looking just in the SRD, I haven't found one)


Otherwise, if it functioned the way you described, you wouldn't need fancy tricks, just when you run out of power points take your headband of int off, then put it back on, you'd "lose" the bonus power points, but since you can't have negative power points, you'd still be at 0, then when you put the headband back on, you'd gain extra power points from increased int, boom, infinite power points.

Except it doesn't work that way.

I agree wholeheartedly that it isn't meant to work that way, and I sure don't allow it to at our table, but I've yet to see the rules citation to prove it.


The FAQ should not be used to prove or disprove anything though.

Also this. Good for insight, good for inspiration for houserules, but not rules themselves.

Besides that, the section in the PHB the FAQ that gogogome quoted clearly states that it refers to Sorcerers regaining 'the spell slots he used up the day before' which is a different thing from gaining a bonus spell slot in the middle of a day (or power points, if those are indeed RAW equivalent. Still haven't seen a citation that power points are exact equivalents. They sure don't function that way.)

[Troacctid]

I don't need to prove anything. I've already presented two readings of the text that are consistent with themselves, the RAW, the RAI, and existing precedents. You're the one trying to justify a cheesy overpowered interpretation—you prove it.

[gogogome]

I don't need to prove anything. I've already presented two readings of the text that are consistent with themselves, the RAW, the RAI, and existing precedents. You're the one trying to justify a cheesy overpowered interpretation—you prove it.

He conceded. And he was talking to Crake.


Now concerning this


If Midnight said "You can expend your psionic focus when manifesting that power to reduce the power point cost to augment that power..." I'd agree but it doesn't. In fact, the way Midnight is worded, you can't expend a focus to activate only Midnight. You have to use it in conjunction with something that consumes the psionic focus. You MUST.

Also it doesn't have the textbook description of exclusive psionic focus use for the feat.


The first one is from the same book. Considering the facts I presented here I don't think I'm rule lawyering here when I say Midnight Augmentation must be used with something that consumes psionic foci.?

Here are some similar powers I could dig up


If you expend your psionic focus when you imbue your mind blade with a psychic strike, the destructive energy instilled in your blade deals one more die of damage. For example, when a 7th-level soulknife charges his blade with a psychic strike in conjunction with expending his psionic focus, the damage potential of the blade is +3d8 points (instead of +2d8 points).

With rays and ranged touch attack powers that deal damage, you deal an extra 2 points of damage. If you expend your psionic focus when you manifest a ray or a ranged touch attack power that deals damage, you add your key ability bonus to the damage (instead of adding 2).

If you expend your psionic focus, you can fuse the essence of an astral construct that you have personally manifested with your own body. You choose to do this when you first manifest the power to gain this effect (instead of creating an astral construct normally).

I think Mind Strike and Skin of the Construct is pretty clear it means that you have to expend the focus for the feat.

[Crake]

Can you provide a rule citation for that?

If you actually read the beginning of the classes section where it describes how many power points you get from high int, it actually says that high int increases a psion's power point reserve, their maximum power points per day, not that they actually grant bonus power points.

As for why it doesn't work for a wizard, it's a similar reason. Increasing int grants you bonus spell daily spellslots, but you need to actually rest to regain your daily spell slot alotment to gain those slots.

[Crichton]

If you actually read...
That's both dismissive/condescending, and really not called for. I've attempted to be polite and friendly in all my posts here, and I was genuinely asking out of curiosity. Additionally, I asked for a rules citation, and instead you seem to have just described how you thought the rules worked, but clearly didn't actually cite or quote any rules text.


...the beginning of the classes section where it describes how many power points you get from high int...
So, the beginning of the class's section isn't where it describes how many power points you get from a high score. It says that you get get bonus power points, and links to the chart in the Abilities and Manifesters section, which is where it describes how many power points you get. That's the same text I quoted in my earlier response to you.


...it actually says that high int increases a psion's power point reserve, their maximum power points per day, not that they actually grant bonus power points.
It actually doesn't say that at all. It never mentions anything about the power point reserve, or maximum power points, or power point capacity. What it does say is exactly what you claim it doesn't. What it does say is exactly the words 'bonus power points.'


Here, let's take a look at what it does say:


In addition, he receives bonus power points per day if he has a high Intelligence score (see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Power Points).


In addition, he receives bonus power points per day if he has a high Wisdom score (see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Power Points).


In addition, she receives bonus power points per day if she has a high Charisma score (see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Power Points).


And for good measure, here's the text from the section each of those refers you to:


a character who manifests powers (psions, psychic warriors, and wilders) gains bonus power points according to his key ability score.
Your key ability score grants you additional power points equal to your key ability modifier × your manifester level ×½. Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Power Points shows these calculations for class levels 1st through 20th and key ability scores from 10 to 41.



Where in any of that text does it say that the psion only gains an increased power point reserve, not actual power points, from an increase in ability score? I'm not seeing it, either in the class description, nor in the Ability Modifiers and Bonus Power Points section. I don't see it in the Psionic Classes overview where it defines what a power point reserve is, and I don't see it in the Psionic Powers Overview, where it defines how to regain used power points after resting. So I'll ask again: if there's a rule somewhere that says a psion doesn't gain the power points from an increased ability score immediately, where is it? That's a genuine question, I'd really like to know. We all seem to think that's how it works, or should work, but the text seems to say the opposite.

As I've said before, I've always houseruled that a character gaining a score (particularly from a Headband of Intellect, but really from wherever), doesn't gain the points/spell slots until after resting, but as far as I can tell, that's just a houserule, because the rules seem to pretty clearly state the opposite.



As for why it doesn't work for a wizard, it's a similar reason. Increasing int grants you bonus spell daily spellslots, but you need to actually rest to regain your daily spell slot alotment to gain those slots.



Are you sure? I'm not. The wording is pretty equivalent to the psionic classes:


In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Intelligence score.
For a Wizard, a 'bonus spell per day' would be a spell slot that was empty and ready to have a spell prepared into it, yes? Unless there's rules text elsewhere?


In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score.
For a Sorcerer, though, a 'bonus spell per day' wouldn't need preparation, so I don't see any rules text saying it's not immediately available for use.

The only supposed citation I've heard to the contrary is the one used (erroneously) in that FAQ that was quoted earlier, from the section in the PHB on a Sorcerer's Daily Readying of Spells, but that section, found on page 179 of the PHB, specifically only refers to the process used to "regain the spell slots he used up the day before" and so that has no bearing on bonus spells, since bonus spells aren't the same as spell slots used up the day before.






I feel like I must be overlooking some key bit of rules text here, but I haven't found it yet, and I've asked a couple times if others can help and share it, but no one has, so maybe there isn't one?

[Crake]

That's both dismissive/condescending, and really not called for. I've attempted to be polite and friendly in all my posts here, and I was genuinely asking out of curiosity. Additionally, I asked for a rules citation, and instead you seem to have just described how you thought the rules worked, but clearly didn't actually cite or quote any rules text.

V--- This down there is exactly why I said "If you actually read" (and why it's neither dismissive nor condescending) because you see, most people don't go and read the books, they just read the SRD or just go off what they've been told/memory. The power point reserve, and how many bonus power points you get to your reserve is in fact at the beginning of the classes section in the book.



So, the beginning of the class's section isn't where it describes how many power points you get from a high score. It says that you get get bonus power points, and links to the chart in the Abilities and Manifesters section, which is where it describes how many power points you get. That's the same text I quoted in my earlier response to you.

[Crichton]

V--- This down there is exactly why I said "If you actually read" (and why it's neither dismissive nor condescending) because you see, most people don't go and read the books, they just read the SRD or just go off what they've been told/memory. The power point reserve, and how many bonus power points you get to your reserve is in fact at the beginning of the classes section in the book.

Are you talking about this little gem of text?


Psionic characters fuel their abilities through a pool, or reserve, of power points. Your power point reserve is equal to your base power points gained from your class, bonus power points from a high key ability score (see Abilities and Manifesters, below), and any additional bonus power points from sources such as your character race and feat selections.

Which, by the way, is exactly the same in the XPH as it is in the SRD in the section Psionic Classes, and which, while I didn't post the quote from it, I did directly reference it, so I'm not sure why you're accusing me of not 'actually reading.' To boot, you referred to it as 'the classes section' instead of 'the chapter on classes' or 'the section on classes in the EPH' or some other less ambiguous term. I very much took your words to mean you were referring to the beginning of the section describing each class.


So if I'm understanding your brief and not really clear response, your entire claim is that 'bonus power points' only and ever refers to an empty increase in a characters power point reserve, and never an increase in their actually available power points?

Seems questionable:

I'm not sure why they'd call them that if that's the case, but I guess it wouldn't be the first time they used confusing wording. Seems like shaky ground for such an argument.
The words 'bonus power points' seem to have a pretty clear meaning.
If they're going to use that exact phrase as a precisely defined rules-term, they really need to precisely define their meaning for that exact phrase somewhere, but they don't.
Also, if 'bonus power points' is to be their legalese term for what you claim, why do they, in the Abilities and Manifesters section, switch from saying 'bonus power point's to saying "Your key ability score grants you additional power points"?? If 'bonus power points' is their technical term for what you claim, then 'additional power points' isn't, so does this line then mean something different?
And why in your previous post did you say "not that they actually grant bonus power points" if 'bonus power points' doesn't actually refer to a characters actual level of power points??






Even if it's as you say, that still doesn't answer the question for magical casters. As I posted above, it doesn't say the ability score grants them an expended spell slot, it says it grants them bonus spells per day, which is a different thing.




(This isn't me trying to 'win' an argument. I don't need to be right here (as I've said a couple times already, I houserule it differently anyway), but I haven't seen any particularly convincing argument to the contrary, let alone a clear rules citation)

[gogogome]

Alright, thanks, as airtight as always.

Ok, so Troacctid was right 100% of the time in this thread. Ok. Sad my street cred tanked here, but at least we now we know the truth for sure and have direct RAW (and FAQ) that supports Troacctid's claims instead of just speculation.



This is a Wilder build I thought of that achieves Recharge at level 4 (because Wilders get 2nd level powers at 4)
Azurin Wilder
1 Earth Sense
A1 Earth Power
3 Expanded Knowledge: Astral Construct

Bestow Power Augmented once with Wild Surge is 3 + 1 (two PP substituted by Wild Surge) - 1 (Earth Power) = 3 PP, and gain 4PP.

The reason for going Earth Power instead of Midnight Augmentation or Linked Power is because:
1. Wilder needs Expanded Knowledge to grab Astral Construct at 3
2. Don't need to waste rounds regaining Psionic Focus which speeds this up quite a bit.

Now just need to optimize psychic enervation mitigation. Definitely gonna grab Enervation Endurance and maybe PrC out even if it means grabbing Practiced Manifester.



Here's an interesting combo I thought of.
You have 0 PP
1. Use a Cognizance Crystal to manifest Bestow Power on myself
2. Get Psionic Focus
3. Use Psycarnum Infusion on Azure Talent, which is optimized for maximum capacity. At level 12 it's 10 points with Psionic Open Chakra (Crown) and Improved Essentia Capacity and 18 CON.
4. Use the bonus power points and your 2 Bestow Power power points to manifest a power, or recharge the cognizance crystal
5. Once the round ends, since you have 0 PP, when Azure Talent reverts to 0 essentia, only spent power points are removed.
Just for kicks add in Wild Surge and even if psychic enervation hits you you can't go under 0 PP so the only downside is the daze. Can't lose what you don't have like if your empty coin purse springs a leak you lose nothing.

I think I can put something together here.... There is the Soul Crystal power that stores PP and lets whoever wields said crystal manifest Bestow Power.... And there's always Psiforged...

This is good. This is fun. I think DMs are more amenable to this trick than just regenerating infinite PP because it takes several actions to manifest 1 power this way and it's really hard to manifest higher power powers with this trick.

Why don't you just grab a Psicrystal?