Hidden Shrine of Tamochan: To DMNPC or not to DMPC?

[Fishyninja]

Hello all.

I'll be running the Hidden Shrine of Tamochan from TYP in about a month or two and I was re-reading through the dungeon to familiarise myself with it.

Since we are playing in the Forgotton Realms setting I will be setting the dungeon in Chult.

From what I have noticed, a lot of the clues and hints are written in Olman or spoken in Olman etc, which is a language none of the party know and have no need to, therefore I was thinking of letting them potentially hire a guide, native to the region who can speak the language.

Now I am presented with 2 options as far as I can see:


Make them just a commoner, who knows some of the local lore and is a translator. I.e. make him a non combat participant and give him a high risk of death.
Make them a DMNPC at a similar level to the party (5-6)


Now if I go with the second option I would need to think of a class that would fit as a guide/translator etc. I had a decent life cleric in a ToA campaign I could use or I was thinking a ranger.

My real fear is.....DMNPC's are they a good idea, I feel that they are there to basically babysit the group from all the nasty things in dungeons, which kinda negates the point of the dungeon.

So what should I do in your opinion?

[Matuka]

If you choose two, let him/her tell them the info they need and nothing more, don't let him share all your knowledge. Also, remember to only make him do basic tactics, don't let him lead them straight to the monsters weakness.

[Unoriginal]

You could use a Scout NPC.

ToA has several guide NPCs, including one (in the Omu chapter, not at the beginning where the other guides are presented) who is a translator.

[Yora]

I am of the opinion that the GM controlling a full party member is never a good idea. Don't do the player's work for them. Giving them a commoner or tribal warrior guide isn't generally an issue, though.

Also, this is exactly the situation the spell comprehend languages exists for. If the party has a wizard, you can arrange for them to find a scroll. Perhaps even an employer or local sage recommending that the wizard should learn it when exploring ruins in this part of the world.

Or alternatively, the players not being able to read any inscriptions is always an option if they don't take any steps to prepare for this situation.

[Fishyninja]

Also, this is exactly the situation the spell comprehend languages exists for. If the party has a wizard, you can arrange for them to find a scroll. Perhaps even an employer or local sage recommending that the wizard should learn it when exploring ruins in this part of the world.


How could I forget about that scroll!

Yeah I have to admit I am a little loathe to have a DMNPC as I feel I have enough going on anyway. The reason why I wanted them to have some foreshadowing is the last dungeon they were in was Dwarvish and no-one could understand any of the history etc which felt a little flat to me. I don't expect them to know everything but when you are in a 3 or 4 session dungeon and you cannot read anything seems a bit 'meh' to me.


You could use a Scout NPC.

ToA has several guide NPCs, including one (in the Omu chapter, not at the beginning where the other guides are presented) who is a translator.

Hmm Ok local warrior type or a guide, and/or scroll of comprehend languages etc, handy I'll look up some guides in ToA.


If you choose two, let him/her tell them the info they need and nothing more, don't let him share all your knowledge. Also, remember to only make him do basic tactics, don't let him lead them straight to the monsters weakness.

Agreed, I am not playing the game for them, that's why I am loathe to go for option 2.

Good ideas, thanks!

[Aquillion]

You could also have the wizard (or most scholarly character) find a book on the language, and allow them to make knowledge checks to use it to translate.

[Matuka]

You could also have the wizard (or most scholarly character) find a book on the language, and allow them to make knowledge checks to use it to translate.

And let the mistranslation comedy flow.

[awa]

if you have a small party having the npc be controlled by the pcs in combat works well for me. I generally find pcs enjoy a support character npc because they don't steal the show and make the pcs life easier. Usually i make them a bit weaker then the pcs so if your pcs are level 5 or 6 id make the npc level 4.

[Whit]

I would suggest
1. They have to buy a comprehend languages scroll. Have the caster learn it. It’s a ritual, so after 10 minutes casting it it does. It count vs spell slot
2. Hire a guide but will be screwed by trying to protect it all the time or it dies. Some places would be deadly. Is it targetable? How many hit points ? Do they leave him alone outside of combats? does the dm forget he’s there? Etc etc.

[some guy]

Other than Comprehend Languages, you can also replace the Olman language with Common. I was a player in one-shot in the first level of the Hidden Shrine and the dm just did this. It didn't feel off, at least for the first level.
If there are large hints you want to be more obscure, hide them with other means (behind a layer of grime, in the possession of a npc, e.g.).

[Keravath]

It seems to me, all you are looking for is a plot device in the story to allow the characters to read the language used in the tomb. You aren't actually looking for anything more than some explanation for why the characters can read/understand the information.

There are tons of ways for you to simply explain why the characters can understand the inscriptions.

1) As suggested, just make them written in common.
2) If you want to keep the flavour of another language (it is only fluff) and want an explanation for why the characters can understand it then.

- translator guide - this option gives you the possibility of removing the translation ability if you want to for some reason - they could be killed or decide to leave. Also Tomb of Annihilation provides some guides in Port Nyanzaru that might be suitable.

Possible guides from ToA would be Azaka from Port Nyanzaru - just play her as much weaker and not using her abilities. She is a weretiger working as a guide. When I played ToA we had Azaka as a guide and we didn't learn about her abilities for several months of actual game play. In your game, since she would be an even less significant NPC, the characters may never learn about her.

Orvex from chapter 3 might be another option. This character is actually in the game as a translator used by the Red Wizards in the city of Omu. He is a lot weaker but should still be able to survive if he stays at the back.

- comprehend languages - if there is a wizard, they could find this spell and put it in their spellbook. It then takes a spell slot or 10 minutes whenever they need to read something but otherwise there is no issue just narrating it.

Magic items:
- charm of comprehend languages - allows casting of comprehend languages a specified number of times before the item is exhausted
- Helm of comprehend languages - cast comprehend languages at will

Warlock invocation (if you have a warlock they could be encouraged to take the following for this current adventure ... but warlocks are often short on invocations).
- eyes of the rune keeper

However, the bottom line is that you are really just looking for a logical explanation for why the party can ready the writing in the tomb. So any reasonable explanation will do ... you could even have a magic item inhabited by the spirit of a former citizen that can provide some translation ability with some other side effect.

[Contrast]

Agree with others who suggest simplest solution is to just make available a 'Dummies guide to translating Olman'.

Edit - I don't know if this fits otherwise with the theme of the temple but bonus points for it being in the form of a journal on a dead explorer with the final words being 'I finally figured out how to disarm the dart trap!' and his skeletal remains being riddled with darts or something similar :smallbiggrin: /edit


Now I am presented with 2 options as far as I can see:


Make them just a commoner, who knows some of the local lore and is a translator. I.e. make him a non combat participant and give him a high risk of death.
Make them a DMNPC at a similar level to the party (5-6)


The two main risks with NPCs accompanying the party are overshadowing a player (which the second option risks) or the NPC feeling like they need to be babysat/a liability (which the first option risks). Is there a reason a middle ground isn't an option?

A level 2 ranger is a very good guide. Alternatively you could make a scout rogue (very good at keeping themselves out of trouble so the PCs don't need to babysit them) but be flexible on what their expertise is in (cooking utensils, stealth, nature and survival?) and maybe swap out the sneak attack feature and give them the mastermind rogue help ability instead.

This assume that no-one in the party is interested in having exploration as their schtick of course.

[Grod_The_Giant]

You could also have the wizard (or most scholarly character) find a book on the language, and allow them to make knowledge checks to use it to translate.
I think this is your best bet. It makes the scholar-character feel great, it maintains the mystique of stuff being written in an obscure ancient language, it lets you convey as much of the background as you want, and-- as Matuka noted-- it gives you the chance to screw with the party by rolling the translation checks secretly.

[Fishyninja]

Wow I wasn't expecting this thread to be so popular!


You could also have the wizard (or most scholarly character) find a book on the language, and allow them to make knowledge checks to use it to translate.

I like this


bonus points for it being in the form of a journal on a dead explorer with the final words being 'I finally figured out how to disarm the dart trap!' and his skeletal remains being riddled with darts or something similar :smallbiggrin:

I really like this!



[SPOILER=ToA Spoiler]Possible guides from ToA would be Azaka from Port Nyanzaru - just play her as much weaker and not using her abilities. She is a weretiger working as a guide. When I played ToA we had Azaka as a guide and we didn't learn about her abilities for several months of actual game play. In your game, since she would be an even less significant NPC, the characters may never learn about her.

Also a handy suggestion!

For those who have suggested translating it to common, I do see where you are coming from however I do like that element of Mystery. In my opinion, THSOT is a more dungeon-esque type dungeon, i.e. more traps and puzzles than combat which will be nice for them. I also like how the dungeon is quite nasty I don't know, the idea that sometimes having that extra element of danger by having to translate the language correctly appeals to me.

[Mjolnirbear]

I ran it set in Eberron, and the language was Giant.

Assuming a standard Forgotten Realms setting, draconic would work. Given the various totems, you could also try Orc, Goblin, or Halfling. Given who the temple is dedicated too, a dark language such as Goblin, Undercommon, or Drow might work. Vampires don't have their own language, but given Orcus, a fiendish language would work as well.

Have a plan for the lycanthropy and the 1000-year curses. The tree-as-roper will also be a tough fight.

The ball court might be fun, but my players didn't stick around long enough. Maybe revise the mechanics for something simpler.

[Fishyninja]

I ran it set in Eberron, and the language was Giant.

Assuming a standard Forgotten Realms setting, draconic would work. Given the various totems, you could also try Orc, Goblin, or Halfling. Given who the temple is dedicated too, a dark language such as Goblin, Undercommon, or Drow might work. Vampires don't have their own language, but given Orcus, a fiendish language would work as well.

Have a plan for the lycanthropy and the 1000-year curses. The tree-as-roper will also be a tough fight.

The ball court might be fun, but my players didn't stick around long enough. Maybe revise the mechanics for something simpler.

You mean 5000 year curses!
Yeah I've been rolling that one around. They have a Pally so I was thinking that I could maybe allow the Pally to cure it using Lay On Hands if it's done immediately. What did you do?

The one thing I might change and this is my personal bias, is the Gas Spore. I am not a fan of 'Save or Die' mechanics

[opaopajr]

DMPC is a loaded term.

Just make them a Skilled or Unskilled Hireling and be done with it. Sometimes hirelings may have levels, but they work for money and have morale. This way if PCs and NPCs don't get along, the PCs can always opt for another Hireling who knows Olman and continue adventuring.

Less attached-to-the-hip, voice-from-the-DM extension, more NPC employee who should be treated like a person. :smallsmile:

[SirGraystone]

You could also have the wizard (or most scholarly character) find a book on the language, and allow them to make knowledge checks to use it to translate.

And depending on the PC rolls you can give them a complete or partial translation.

[Guy Lombard-O]

The two main risks with NPCs accompanying the party are overshadowing a player (which the second option risks) or the NPC feeling like they need to be babysat/a liability (which the first option risks). Is there a reason a middle ground isn't an option?

Alternatively you could make a scout rogue (very good at keeping themselves out of trouble so the PCs don't need to babysit them)

Both of these.

We had Azaka as a "guide" in our ToA campaign, and she ended up being the party's main tank due to her damage resistance. It was frankly sort of annoying, despite being handy and probably preventing a TPK or two. We were all pleased when we were strong enough to send her away and still progress through the adventure.

I think the idea of a cowardly translator/rogue who instantly hides at the first sign of trouble might be pretty fun(ny), if played correctly. Make the party locate him (nearby) after each combat, and then have him give an assortment of excuses for why he abandoned them (yet again).