Scag Cantrip Questions

[ThatDuckGrant]

I have a few questions regarding GFB and BB based around a melee sorcerer I’m going to be playing in an upcoming adventure.

First, both GFB and BB have material components, which would generally require a free hand to provide, but I’m assuming that holding a weapon in one hand fixes that. Two questions about this though. 1: does shadow blade count as “a weapon” (I’m assuming yes) and 2: can unarmed strikes count as “a weapon?” In other words, could I use alter self to get the +1 d6 unarmed strikes, and use a scag cantrip with them?

Second, because we have other charisma casters (sorcerer and bard) in the party, and I’m going to play the role of a melee attacker, I was considering dumping charisma (I know this isn’t smart, but it’s doable, so I want to try it). The question I have is: would using GFB with a negative cha modifier subtract from the damage I deal to the secondary target? I want to say it shouldn't, but GFB lacks the “(minimum of 1)” clarification on other spells and class abilities. Could I actually end up doing negative damage before level 5? Would that heal the secondary target?

[Man_Over_Game]

I have a few questions regarding GFB and BB based around a melee sorcerer I’m going to be playing in an upcoming adventure.

First, both GFB and BB have material components, which would generally require a free hand to provide, but I’m assuming that holding a weapon in one hand fixes that. Two questions about this though. 1: does shadow blade count as “a weapon” (I’m assuming yes) and 2: can unarmed strikes count as “a weapon?” In other words, could I use alter self to get the +1 d6 unarmed strikes, and use a scag cantrip with them?

Second, because we have other charisma casters (sorcerer and bard) in the party, and I’m going to play the role of a melee attacker, I was considering dumping charisma (I know this isn’t smart, but it’s doable, so I want to try it). The question I have is: would using GFB with a negative cha modifier subtract from the damage I deal to the secondary target? I want to say it shouldn't, but GFB lacks the “(minimum of 1)” clarification on other spells and class abilities. Could I actually end up doing negative damage before level 5? Would that heal the secondary target?


Shadow Blade is definitely a weapon. An example of what DOESN'T work is Flame Blade
Unarmed Strikes are not a weapon. This is why they can technically surpass the damage reduction of Heavy Armor Master.
There's no such thing as "Negative Damage". Most instances subtract from the damage that you would be doing of the same type, but that doesn't work in this instance. I don't think there's any RAW that supports it, but I'd just have it deal a minimum of 0 damage.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Shadow Blade is definitely a weapon. An example of what DOESN'T work is Flame Blade
Unarmed Strikes are not a weapon. This is why they can technically surpass the damage reduction of Heavy Armor Master.
There's no such thing as "Negative Damage". Most instances subtract from the damage that you would be doing of the same type, but that doesn't work in this instance. I don't think there's any RAW that supports it, but I'd just have it deal a minimum of 0 damage.

Seconding this, on the third point though we have this excerpt from the Damage and Healing part of Chapter 9 in the PHB

With a penalty, it is possible to deal 0 damage, but never negative damage.
So with a penalty to Charisma you would deal 0 damage.

As an aside, is there a particular reason that you'd be choosing to dump charisma while playing a sorcerer? It seems to me like you would be better off playing a Paladin or even Fighter and instead taking Magic Initiate for the SCAG Cantrips.

[Trustypeaches]

Isn’t the material component of Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade the actual weapon you’re using to attack?

[ThatDuckGrant]

As an aside, is there a particular reason that you'd be choosing to dump charisma while playing a sorcerer? It seems to me like you would be better off playing a Paladin or even Fighter and instead taking Magic Initiate for the SCAG Cantrips.

I didn’t want to provide too much detail in the original post, but I’ll provide it here:

I’m actually gestalting as I’m playing in a small party. The rules we’re using allow for spell slots to stack, so I’m going to play a Druid/sorcerer and at level 3 (start level) I’ll have 8 first level slots and 4 second level slots. The plan is to use the copious number of slots to generate more sorcery points for SCAG cantrips and twinning buffs (like haste and greater invisibility

Additionally, I’m playing the old UA stone sorcerer so my AC is based on my con score. So I need con and str before casting, and I’d rather have decent Wis than Cha. So the question is between dumping Int, dex, or Cha, and I prefer the RP flavor of a low Cha character to a dumb character.

It’s complicated, but the TLDR is that I think it’d be fun to play a dwarf sorcerer who is useless at affecting others with his spells, and I’m in a position where I CAN do that so I might as well try it.

[Man_Over_Game]

Isn’t the material component of Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade the actual weapon you’re using to attack?

It does not technically have to be, it just generally is.

Booming Blade requires you to make an attack. It requires you to hold a weapon/focus for the material component. It requires you to target a creature within 5 feet of you.

That's all. If you want to use your dagger as the component but your sword for the attack, you can do that.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I didn’t want to provide too much detail in the original post, but I’ll provide it here:

I’m actually gestalting as I’m playing in a small party. The rules we’re using allow for spell slots to stack, so I’m going to play a Druid/sorcerer and at level 3 (start level) I’ll have 8 first level slots and 4 second level slots. The plan is to use the copious number of slots to generate more sorcery points for SCAG cantrips and twinning buffs (like haste and greater invisibility

Additionally, I’m playing the old UA stone sorcerer so my AC is based on my con score. So I need con and str before casting, and I’d rather have decent Wis than Cha. So the question is between dumping Int, dex, or Cha, and I prefer the RP flavor of a low Cha character to a dumb character.

It’s complicated, but the TLDR is that I think it’d be fun to play a dwarf sorcerer who is useless at affecting others with his spells, and I’m in a position where I CAN do that so I might as well try it.

Well in that case, makes sense to me. The Stone Sorcerer UA was one of my favorites, I'm pretty sad that it's not seeing print.

[nickl_2000]

I think you are going to be perfectly fine with that build. Although, I would consider a cleric instead of a Druid for your gestalt class. That way you have bless and shield of faith as an option for a buffing spell from the beginning.

I have a player in my game who runs a stone sorcerer with a lower charisma, spell sniper, and BB/GFB and is very effective.

[ThatDuckGrant]

It does not technically have to be, it just generally is.

Booming Blade requires you to make an attack. It requires you to hold a weapon/focus for the material component. It requires you to target a creature within 5 feet of you.

That's all. If you want to use your dagger as the component but your sword for the attack, you can do that.

Could I use a focus with a free hand and then make an aunarmed strike with it?

[ThatDuckGrant]

I think you are going to be perfectly fine with that build. Although, I would consider a cleric instead of a Druid for your gestalt class. That way you have bless and shield of faith as an option for a buffing spell from the beginning.

I have a player in my game who runs a stone sorcerer with a lower charisma, spell sniper, and BB/GFB and is very effective.

I thought about that, but I like Druid for their spell list. Guardian of Nature is a great alternative to greater invisibility if fighting a creature with blindsight or tremorsense, and druids also get foresight for twinning or extending at level 17. Plus natural recovery gives me more slots over the course of the day.

[Man_Over_Game]

Could I use a focus with a free hand and then make an aunarmed strike with it?

Sorry, forgot to include this "you must make a melee attack with a weapon". Technically, unarmed strikes aren't weapons.

This could be relevant to something like using an Improvised Weapon for the attack, which are technically not weapons until the attack itself.

A few JC quotes, to support this:

"An improvised weapon is, indeed, a weapon, but only the moment it's used as such. A chair/shield/etc isn't a weapon otherwise."
"In D&D, a weapon is an object. A weapon attack is a process. Sometimes the rules let you use nonweapons to engage in that process".

Since the attack doesn't occur until the spell is cast, and the spell requires you to use a weapon for the component, and a Chair isn't a weapon until you make the attack, you can't use a Chair as the material component (as that would imply that ANY object could be a valid material for the spell). However, since an object could BECOME a weapon with an attack, you could use a Chair for the attack.

So I guess you could touch your dagger to cast the spell and then hit someone with an enchanted chair. Kinda dumb, but there it is.