Swashbuckler- Cool, but annoyingly structured

[Human Paragon 3]

Swashbuckler is a cool class with some useful abilities, but it has some major design flaws, in my mind, that really bug me.

Dead level at 4? Right after you get your best class feature (precise strike) at 3? They're begging you to drop the class after 3, especially considering

Dead level at 6! After a brief break for a +1 dodge bonus you're back to getting nothing for your level up except for BAB and HP.

While we're on the topic of dead levels, Grace. Lamest class feature, ever. Might as well be a dead level, and its all you get at level 2.

Lucky is useful, but once per day with no improvement is sad. Should at least be once per encounter.

Dead level at 9, 12, 16, 18. You don't even get a feat at 16, so it's a dead, dead level like 4. Pretty frustrating. I'd accept a downgrade to d8 hit die in exchange for some real features.

[slexlollar89]

I know how you feel... I love the class personally, and have tried all sort of things to "revive" those dead levels. One way I do it is to add a class feature called riposte (I know there is another feature called this, but don't know if the two are the same). Basically, at fourth lvl, and every 4 levels afterward, they get riposte 10% which allows them to make a single attack at their highest BAB against EACH oponent that misses them in a round (guy attacks, misses, so you roll %, if succesful you get the riposte). the attack counts as an attak of oportunity, so all those ruls apply, and the target is considered flat footed for that one attack.

Thats my favorite way of fixing the eptiness of the swash buckler, and it makes it more duelist-ish to me.

[BardicDuelist]

Actually, just adding the class feature for scout in Cityscape works really well. Better AC, bonus damage when being defensive, etc.

[slexlollar89]

I don;t hve cityscape, but I've heard of the ability... besides I made a homebrew deulist class that fits me better than the swashbuckler, and that's where I got the riposte thing from.

However, I figure with a name like bardic duelst you probably know what you are talking about.

[BardicDuelist]

You don't need Cityscape, it is in the web enhancement.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a

Start the progression at level 4 instead of 1, so that you don't overshadow the scout feature and you also hit every dead level except 9. One dead level isn't bad, especially if it is one where you get a feat.

To get rid of that dead level, I give Int to AC (does not stack with armor, applies to touch and flatfooted, like monk's wisdom bonus). This is not overpowered, because 9 levels is hardly a dip.

I also gave d8 HD, 6 skills per level and good Ref saves.

Now you have a solid(ish) class.

[Human Paragon 3]

So the finished product would look something like this:

1 Weapon Finesse
2 Grace
3 Insightful Strike
4 Riposte +1d6
5 Dodge bonus +1
6 Riposte +1AC
7 Acrobatic Charge
8 Improved Flanking, Riposte +2d6
9 Insightful Stance
10 Dodge Bonus +2, Riposte +2AC
11 Grace +2, Lucky
12 Riposte +3d6
13 Acrobatic Skill Mastery
14 Weakening Critical, Riposte +3AC
15 Dodge Bonus +3
16 Riposte +4d6
17 Slippery Mind
18 Riposte +4AC
19 Wounding Critical
20 Dodge Bonus +4, Grace +3

Might all that riposting be a bit powerful with Daring Outlaw?

[BardicDuelist]

So the finished product would look something like this:

1 Weapon Finesse
2 Grace
3 Insightful Strike
4 Riposte +1d6
5 Dodge bonus +1
6 Riposte +1AC
7 Acrobatic Charge
8 Improved Flanking, Riposte +2d6
9 Insightful Stance
10 Dodge Bonus +2, Riposte +2AC
11 Grace +2, Lucky
12 Riposte +3d6
13 Acrobatic Skill Mastery
14 Weakening Critical, Riposte +3AC
15 Dodge Bonus +3
16 Riposte +4d6
17 Slippery Mind
18 Riposte +4AC
19 Wounding Critical
20 Dodge Bonus +4, Grace +3

Might all that riposting be a bit powerful with Daring Outlaw?

First Question: Yes, that is how it looks.
Second Question: Even with daring outlaw, it is worse than many of the ToB combinations, The Shock Trooper Combo, etc. Also, not of it affects creature's immune to critical hits. It is also not really better than a rogue with Swift Tracker (which would actually have a better skirmish bonus).

I should also say that the Riposte for Swashbucklers should be only for melee attacks (unlike the one for scouts). This means that you can't spam Greater Manyshot like a rogue/scout can.

Spoler Tags mine.

[Human Paragon 3]

Swift Tracker... the ranger class feature? I don't follow.

Edit: You meant Swift Ambusher, I think. But what you're missing from the equation is full BAB, which means many more successful sneak attacks and ripostes than the swift ambushing rogue.

[BardicDuelist]

Swift Tracker... the ranger class feature? I don't follow.

Edit: You meant Swift Ambusher, I think. But what you're missing from the equation is full BAB, which means many more successful sneak attacks and ripostes than the swift ambushing rogue.

True, but again, it isn't any better than some ToB combos, or the Shock Trooper thing. Also, when I DM, we don't use daring outlaw, since I effectively gave swashbucklers somthing very similar for free.

[Dr. Weasel]

So the finished product would look something like this:



1 Weapon Finesse
2 Grace
3 Insightful Strike
4 Riposte +1d6
5 Dodge bonus +1
6 Riposte +1AC
7 Acrobatic Charge
8 Improved Flanking, Riposte +2d6
9 Insightful Stance
10 Dodge Bonus +2, Riposte +2AC
11 Grace +2, Lucky
12 Riposte +3d6
13 Acrobatic Skill Mastery
14 Weakening Critical, Riposte +3AC
15 Dodge Bonus +3
16 Riposte +4d6
17 Slippery Mind
18 Riposte +4AC
19 Wounding Critical
20 Dodge Bonus +4, Grace +3
Might all that riposting be a bit powerful with Daring Outlaw?

You could just drop the feat if you find it to be too much; I actually like this progression quite a bit.
Shouldn't that hit 5d6 at 20th, though?

[Human Paragon 3]

True, but again, it isn't any better than some ToB combos, or the Shock Trooper thing. Also, when I DM, we don't use daring outlaw, since I effectively gave swashbucklers somthing very similar for free.



This is true to a given value of true. Comparing a house rule to the most overpowered RAW may not be the best standard.

As it happens, I'm already using the daring outlaw feat, so I don't think it would be very honorable to retroactively houserule in the class feature.

In other circumstances, though, I think the fix is actually a very good one, i.e. a sweet class that is not overpowered.

Know what else would be cool? A capstone ability that lets you full attack after an acrobatic charge.


Edit: The weasel is correct, you SHOULD hit +5d6 at level 20.

[Renegade Paladin]

Here you go. (http://dsenchuk.googlepages.com/swashbuckler) Problem solved.

[BardicDuelist]

Here you go. (http://dsenchuk.googlepages.com/swashbuckler) Problem solved.

The rules are too complicated and too special situational. A sleeker class structure is better as it keeps the game moving. Then again, I'll use mine, you'll use yours and we'll both have fun.

[Renegade Paladin]

The rules are too complicated and too special situational. A sleeker class structure is better as it keeps the game moving. Then again, I'll use mine, you'll use yours and we'll both have fun.
How are they too complicated? Oh no, you have to do actual swashbuckling? :smallconfused: This is all stuff the two swashbuckler characters in one of my campaigns were doing anyway before I found this; rebuilding into it just rewarded them for it.

[Dr. Weasel]

Even though Otto's behind that class, it's clunky and seems to exaggerate some of the problems with the combat system (even more extra attacks that are going to miss anyway, but which the player feels the need to roll anyway in case he gets a 20).

The effects really aren't too 'cinematic' if your daring swashbuckler is leaping up and down for no apparent reason each and every round of every combat.

[Renegade Paladin]

If your player starts bunny-hopping for the bonus, smack him in the face and make him pay for the pizza. Duh. :smalltongue: That's what the DM is for.

[Human Paragon 3]

Also, it seems a bit fueled-by-the-power-of-plot. He gets bonus damage for his cinematic moves because... they're cinematic. And it's precision damage, because jumping off a balcony makes your strikes more precise?

I think adding sneak attack (or riposte) would be more appropriate. Many of the actions described in that class description would deny an opponent his dex bonus to AC, such as balancing, feinting, or surprising him (say, you had conceilment from your opponent before leaping off the balcony).

Don't want it to seem like you're being ganged up on, I'm sure it's actually a blast to play with the right group, it just seems a bit specific.

[Renegade Paladin]

You're playing a game with magic, cubical unicellular organisms ten feet on a side, honest-to-God dragons actually capable of flight and breathing fire, unnatural monsters from parallel dimensions, and multiple species of humanoid filling the same niche in the same general geographic area without one becoming dominant and breeding the other out (just for starters) and you can't accept getting bonus damage for swinging off a chandelier? :smallamused:

[Dr. Weasel]

The problem is if the point of the class is to disregard the rules given (very specific actions which all would be ridiculous if a player went out of his way to obtain) and leave everything to DM fiat, the class appears very cumbersome in use.

The class does look like it would work in the proper sorts of groups, but it isn't a version which could be universally implemented.

[Human Paragon 3]

Not exactly a solid argument. By that logic, I should accept that sometimes everybody's head explodes with no explanation because their are dragons. Or that because I'm willing to accept that Spiderman can shoot webs and has super strength, that I should also be willing to accept that Mary Jane is impervious to all forms of attack due to her Power of Prettiness. Just because something unbelievable A is accepted doesn't mean that all unbelievable things B-Z must also be accepted.

Just sick of that argument, sorry.



The class does look like it would work in the proper sorts of groups, but it isn't a version which could be universally implemented.

This.

Lastly, the list of what can be done to achieve the precision damage is just so exhaustive and forgiving that it stretches credibility. Basically, as the class is written, you get bonus damage for doing almost anything in combat besides moving and attacking. Climb a flight of stairs? Bonus damage! Crawl (tumble) under a table? Bonus damage! Jump over a log? Bonus damage! Use any of the combat expertise feats? Bonus damage!

[Renegade Paladin]

Okay. How would it be ridiculous? Shipboard combat requires more Balance checks than you can shake a stick at, fighting while climbing isn't something that should never come up, demoralizing an opponent with Intimidate is RAW, jumping over stuff is an excellent maneuver in an area with difficult terrain (and just jumping at the enemy, I might add, is the entire point of the Leap Attack feat that's such an integral part of an ubercharging fighter build), tumbling to avoid AoOs is bog-standard for any class with Tumble as a class skill, feinting is RAW (and is also a situation that gives sneak attack, so it's not like doing it is an unprecedented means of getting bonus damage), disarming and tripping are both legitimate combat tactics (and are staples of the swashbuckling genre, which is why they're on the list), if your enemy is ten feet below you then you'll have to jump down there if you want to hit him anyway, and riposte is a class feature that they get and I would expect them to use regardless. None of these are things that won't come up if the DM varies his combat areas to include difficult or uneven terrain and various issues with bad footing.

Lastly, the list of what can be done to achieve the precision damage is just so exhaustive and forgiving that it stretches credibility. Basically, as the class is written, you get bonus damage for doing almost anything in combat besides moving and attacking. Climb a flight of stairs? Bonus damage! Crawl (tumble) under a table? Bonus damage! Jump over a log? Bonus damage! Use any of the combat expertise feats? Bonus damage!
Climbing a flight of stairs doesn't require a Climb check; that's the point of stairs. The tumbling provision specifies tumbling to avoid an AoO, not any Tumble check you ever make. Frankly, clearing a log big enough to require a standing jump that high should be surprising enough. :smalltongue: And finally, nothing on the list says you get the bonus damage for using Combat Expertise. Am I missing something?

[Kaelik]

Even more extra attacks that are going to miss anyway, but which the player feels the need to roll anyway in case he gets a 20

Um? Notice that those attacks have the exact likely hood to hit as a Full Attack from a comparable level fighter? The whole point of Celerity is that it guarantees that if they aren't TWF they have no incentive to try for a full attack, and therefore are more likely to do something Swashbucklery.

If the lack of dependence on a full attack is what hurts melee characters (other then ToB) then why is dropping that flaw a bad thing?

[BardicDuelist]

Like I said man: You use yours, I'll use mine. We will both be happy. I'm not saying that mine is better than yours, but just that I prefer mine to yours for my style of play, both as a player and as a DM.

To give bonuses for Cinematic moves, I give a +1 circumstance bonus for fighting from atop a table or elevated surface. Things like that, available to all characters, help out considerably.

[Renegade Paladin]

Well, yeah, but any random fool gets a +1 bonus to attack rolls for having the high ground. :smalltongue: It doesn't do anything for the class.

[Draz74]

Well, yeah, but any random fool gets a +1 bonus to attack rolls for having the high ground. :smalltongue: It doesn't do anything for the class.

You could just increase the high-ground bonus for Swashbucklers to encourage them to act "cinematically" and use their Acrobatic Charge. Actually, that's a really good idea. I think I'm stealing it.

[Dr. Weasel]

Um? Notice that those attacks have the exact likely hood to hit as a Full Attack from a comparable level fighter? The whole point of Celerity is that it guarantees that if they aren't TWF they have no incentive to try for a full attack, and therefore are more likely to do something Swashbucklery.
Ah, I misread that. For some reason I thought it said "you may make an extra melee attack at your lowest Base Attack Bonus with a -5 penalty."

My main problem with using this myself is I can very easily see endless arguments over what is "cinematic enough" to qualify.

[bosssmiley]

You're playing a game with magic, cubical unicellular organisms ten feet on a side, honest-to-God dragons actually capable of flight and breathing fire, unnatural monsters from parallel dimensions, and multiple species of humanoid filling the same niche in the same general geographic area without one becoming dominant and breeding the other out (just for starters) and you can't accept getting bonus damage for swinging off a chandelier? :smallamused:

What liar says that swinging from things and leaping over balconies makes you a *worse* fighter? This fool flies in the face of all that cinema has ever taught us about combat! :smallamused:

Like this revised swashbuckler. Might start using this as the standard issue for the class in my own games (3 level class dips make Eggy a sad huevo). GJ Gaurd Juris.

[Hawriel]

I read swashbubler class when I got the book. Didnt like it at all. I like having a Rogue/Fight or Bard/Fighter and calling it a swashbucker better. Use fighter feats for mobility stuff.

[Rex Blunder]

Also, as OoTS has noted, it's really weird that charisma is a swashbuckler dump stat.

[Human Paragon 3]

Like this revised swashbuckler. Might start using this as the standard issue for the class in my own games (3 level class dips make Eggy a sad huevo). GJ Gaurd Juris.

The credit belongs to the other kind people in this thread. All I did was bitch about the CW Swashbuckler, and Giant Forum delivered.

[dr.cello]

I definitely like Swashbuckler a lot more with Daring Outlaw, but I agree--there's far too many dead levels/lackluster character abilities early on--after third level, it's not until about seventh or eighth level that you get any really good abilities. I think just adding some bonus feats would make the class more viable, or possibly moving 'lucky' to a lot earlier and giving it the d20 Scoundrel's progression (so you can get it 2/day, and so on).

Melee-only Riposte also seems like a good idea. And I don't see it being that powerful even when coupled with Daring Outlaw, and it would make the class a lot more fun to take straight.

I think I like adding some bonus feats, though. Not sure at what levels or what list.