Let's Read: Gods and Monsters Vaporware

[Karl Aegis]

Go to immortalshandbook.com , go to the "20th December 2010 Gods & Monsters (3.5E) free pdf release!" announcement and download the unfinished pdf.

After finishing the Immortals Handbook: Epic Bestiary, calls were made to read the next book in the series: Ascension. I decided it would be better to move onto a different bestiary instead of what amounts to a bunch of feats and portfolios and general sloppiness. Gods and Monsters was supposed to be the scribblings of a madman for Immortals Handbook: Epic Bestiary 2 and Immortals Handbook: Epic Bestiary 3, but the scribblings were never finished and most of them are nonexistent or only appear in the Table of Contents. Speaking of the Table of Contents, let's get right into it!

We get a bunch of names, but don't expect more than a handful to show up in this pdf. Only the Thunderbird from the Monsters section is mentioned at all. The Introduction doesn't exist and most of the Gods are copies of Surtr's entry. But, from the names of the monsters we can see the ambition of the author: She-dragons, Gigantes, Titans, Space Vampires, Star Demons, Doom and Lunar dragons, Sir Not-Appearing-In-This-Book the Zombie King and the two-dimensional Chalk Golem. All of these would have taken a lot of time to create, but trying to figure out the math of 3.5e was deemed too time consuming compared to creating content for 4e. Yes, the author said 3.5e epic play was borked and said, "I'm outta here!" as soon as he realized it.

The Pantheons section appears again in the glossary, so we're dealing with that when we get to the glossary. Gotta avoid redundancy somehow.

Next time: Morgan Le Fay! She's a disciple, at Divine Rank 1.

[remetagross]

Darn, they tried producing a 3.5 book in 2010! What a nonsensical idea...no wonder they gave up halfway through.

[Kalkra]

There were a few things I liked about Ascension, but yeah this makes for a better "Lets Read:".

[Karl Aegis]

Morgan Le Fay
Mor-Gan-La-Fey

This stunningly beautiful, raven-tressed woman has piecing gray eyes and an inviting smile. Her long, dark hair kept from her face by a circlet of gold about her forehead. She is dressed head to toe in black: black boots, black bodice and cowled black robe, yet for all that she seems to flash quite a lot of flesh. The occasional glimmer of golden trinkets catch the light.


Morgan Le Fay is a CR 14 Disciple with class levels of Sorceror 3/Cleric 3/ Mystic Theurge 10 from the Celtic Pantheon. She seems to be missing... quite a few of the goodies the Disciple Template is supposed to give you like +10 Foot land speed, a handful of spell-like abilities, and the weaknesses her portfolios are supposed to give her: -1 Strength, - 1 Constitution, -1 to all checks while on Holy Ground and vulnerability to Holy damage. She's also missing the top spell-like abilities of her portfolios: Summon Monster IX and Disjunction at-will. She doesn't have Turn Undead or Familiar for reasons unknown. She's missing stuff, okay?

Her feats are bad. Her spell selection is okay. Her Evil Portfolio gives her At-Will Blasphemy at Caster Level 17 and she can create mummies at-will. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I have no reason to believe her saves were calculated correctly. Her artifacts are mostly normal items gestalted together. I would probably feel good fighting her as a boss at level 12 or so, as long as I had the proper immunities. CR 14 seems about right.

Next Time: Yanauluha the Prophet.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Karl Aegis
This stunningly beautiful, raven-tressed woman....

Huh, I always imagined she was a redhead.

[SaveOrDye]

You know, we could probably finish the book ourselves.

[noob]

You know, we could probably finish the book ourselves.

What is the point when anyone can write random numbers between 100 and 4923^4355 and then put 3 random abilities from the following list: "immortal(comes back to life when killed by something of lower rank),spell immunity except against epic divination spells,at will all the spells ever, a whole bunch of randomly picked slas, this pick counts as 3 picks and gives nothing, unavoidable huge aoe nova, some interesting ability, a boring unbreakable defence that is too specific"
The only times you need any imagination if when you fall on the "some interesting ability" roll but the rest is possible to automate.

[danielxcutter]

What is the point when anyone can write random numbers between 100 and 4923^4355 and then put 3 random abilities from the following list: "immortal(comes back to life when killed by something of lower rank),spell immunity except against epic divination spells,at will all the spells ever, a whole bunch of randomly picked slas, this pick counts as 3 picks and gives nothing, unavoidable huge aoe nova, some interesting ability, a boring unbreakable defence that is too specific"
The only times you need any imagination if when you fall on the "some interesting ability" roll but the rest is possible to automate.

Well, fair, but considering how... sloppy the Immortal Handbook line appears to be in general, I think we'd at least do a decent job, probably more so at the lower-ish epic levels. Well, depending on what you call "lower-end Epic", but from what I've seen, the twenty-something range does seem to be close enough for people to talk about. You know, some of the titular Elder Evils, high-age category dragons... that kind of stuff.

[Scrollreader]

So she's CR 14 ... With 16 class levels and a template? How well balanced.

[Lleban]

Well, fair, but considering how... sloppy the Immortal Handbook line appears to be in general, I think we'd at least do a decent job, probably more so at the lower-ish epic levels. Well, depending on what you call "lower-end Epic", but from what I've seen, the twenty-something range does seem to be close enough for people to talk about. You know, some of the titular Elder Evils, high-age category dragons... that kind of stuff.

I do think we could have a thread where we tried to design epic monsters. It'd be a fun thought experiment if nothing else and I'm pretty sure the forum is creative to come up with interesting abilities and scenario's.

[unseenmage]

I do think we could have a thread where we tried to design epic monsters. It'd be a fun thought experiment if nothing else and I'm pretty sure the forum is creative to come up with interesting abilities and scenario's.
My only concern would be what benchmarks to agree on.

Like how much homebrew would be too much and how much epic spellcasting vs not-having-any-spellcasting arguementating would be allowed?

[Karl Aegis]

Yanauluha
Ya-nol-oo-Ha

The man before you has has weatherbeaten, coarse red skin. While his face is deniably old, his body is that of a much younger man in the prime of his life. However, his piercing blue eyes stare past you as if gazing into time immemorial. His long grey hair is tied in two pony-tails decorated by bright plumed feathers. His presence is commanding, yet strangely comforting.


Yanauluha is a CR 28 Prophet with class levels of Cleric 22/Druid 11 from the North American Pantheon. He has spell-like abilities from the Community and Nature Animal Portfolios which include a handful of bigshot spells:

Spell-like Abilities: At will - animal shapes, anti-life shell, bless, calm animals, commune with nature, dominate animal, heroes feast, hold animal,
imbue with spell ability, magnificent mansion, prayer, prismatic sphere, shapechange, status, summon nature’s ally IV, summon nature’s ally VIII, sympathy, telepathic bond. Caster level 35th. The save DCs are Charisma based.

Some are better than others, but that's what you get. He's missing quite a few things from the Prophet template as well. His divine abilities are better than Morgan La Fay's "I saved some money on Tomes".

Divine Abilities:
• Adjuration: Yanauluha can summon up to 66 hit die of creatures per day (no single creature can have more than 24 hit die).
• Superior Summoning: Any creatures summoned by Yanauluha has 50% more hit dice than normal.

His spells aren't bad for core spells, his feats are... lackluster and his artifacts aren't even that good. His prismatic weapon shoots prismatic ray at your target if it scores a critical hit, more rays depending on your critical multiplier. One nifty thing he can do is summon a 48 hit dice Thunderbird which has a small area of effect stun that a fortitude save does not negate. I think he is supposed to have Turn Undead and Wild Shape, but doesn't for some reason. His Community portfolio is supposed to make him unable to be magically transported, so I have no idea why he has Transport via Plants.

Overall, beat him down before you get buried in a horde of angels. Seriously, this dude has more summons than he'll ever need and they all have a ton of hit dice.

Next time: The Wakinyan, pronounced Thunderbird.

[Malphegor]

Huh, I always imagined she was a redhead.

I suspect they're doing the fairly common thing of mixing bits of the Morrígan with Morgan La Fey, especially with calling her hair 'raven-tressed'. (they are different, but enough people have smooshed the two into each other in the great mess of fanfiction and reinterpretations of Arthurian tales and Celtic myth that I guess they've become linked irl)

[Karl Aegis]

Huge Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Good)
Hit Dice: 32d8+352 (608 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares), fly 360 ft. (average)
Armor Class: 38 (-2 size, +30 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 38
Base Attack/Grapple: +32/+70 Attack: Talon +52 melee (4d8+22 plus 4d8 divine electricity/18-20; x3)
Full Attack: Bite +52 melee (4d8+11 plus 4d8 divine electricity/18-20; x3), 2 talons +52 melee (4d8+22 plus 4d8 divine electricity/18-20; x3), 2 wings +52 melee (2d8+11 plus 2d8 divine electricity/18-20; x3)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Breath weapon, divine electricity, rend, thunderclap
Special Qualities: Augmented criticals, damage reduction 15/epic and good, low light vision, outsider traits, spell resistance 42
Saves: Fort +29, Ref +18, Will +23
Abilities: Str 54, Dex 11, Con 32, Int 8, Wis 20, Cha 12
Skills: Listen +35, Spot +43
Feats: Alertness, Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack (x3: bite, talon, wing), Improved Toughness (x5)
Environment: Happy Hunting Grounds
Organization: Solitary or with Flock (2-20 Legendary Eagles)
Challenge Rating: 25
Treasure: None
Alignment: Chaotic Good
Advancement: 33-63 HD (Huge), 64-127 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment:

This great eagle

The wakinyan, more commonly referred to as the thunderbird, although the name wakinyan more accurately translates as ‘winged sacred power’, is a powerful spirit in the form of a great eagle. There are thought to be four thunderbirds at any one time, representing the four winds, each of a different color and ethos.
• Wazinyan (West Wind): The most powerful of the thunderbirds. This white plumed bird is of chaotic good alignment.
• Waziya (North Wind): Known as the ‘killing north wind’. This vicious black thunderbird is chaotic evil in alignment.
• Wowchowsen (East Wind): Also known as the enemy bird, this red plumed thunderbird is lawful evil aligned.
• ? (South Wind): The mysterious blue bird that represents the south wind has no eyes or ears. It is thought to be of lawful good alignment.

COMBAT The wakinyan will employ its ranged powers initially (thunderclap if it can catch more than one opponent in the area of effect, breath weapon against single opponents), before resorting to melee. Yanauluha’s natural attacks or any weapons he wields, are treated as chaotic-aligned, epic and good-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Augmented Criticals (Ex): Wakinyan scores a critical hit on a roll of 18-20 and deal x3 damage on a critical hit.
Breath Weapon (Su): 80-foot line, once every 1d4 rounds, damage 32d6 divine electricity, Reflex save (DC 37) half. The save DC is Constitution-based.
Divine Electricity (Su): The wakinyan deals an amount of divine electricity damage equal to the melee attacks base damage dice. F
ast Healing (Ex): A wakinyan possesses fast healing 15.
Rend (Ex): Any opponent struck by both the wakinyan’s talons in a single round are rended for an additional 8d6+33 plus 8d6 divine electricity damage.
Skills (Ex): Wakinyan gain a +8 racial bonus on Spot checks.
Thunderclap (Su): By beating its wings the wakinyan can produce a thunderclap. This manifests as a cone of sound 40 ft. long. Anyone caught within the area of effect suffers 32d6 divine sonic damage, is stunned for 1d4 rounds and deafened for 8d6 rounds. A successful Fortitude save (DC 37) can halve the damage, stunning and deafening.


You can summon one of these guys with the equivalent of Summon Monster XII. The epic spell has a spellcraft DC of 80, minus 30 for burning 3000 XP for a total of 50. It's easier to take Heighten Spell and the Epic Feat Automatic Metamagic Capacity multiple times until you can Heighten a Summon Monster spell to XII. You summon them for their Thunderclap ability, a point-blank cone-based attack that is no save, just stun versus creatures without immunity to stunning or a mettle-equivalent ability.

Next time: Achilles the Hero-Deity

[Telok]

Le Fay has CR under her hit dice because of those ten levels of mystic theurge without any optimization. Can't speak to the template tho.

And how are those two summons abilities supposed to work together? He can summon 66 hd a day, max 24 on one critter, the summons have +50% hd... So he summons two 16 hd critters that have +8 hd each and then one 12 hd critter with +6 hd? What's he doing? Bringing slightly buff planetars and astral devas to a level 30+ fight to serve as body pillows?

[Karl Aegis]

Le Fay has CR under her hit dice because of those ten levels of mystic theurge without any optimization. Can't speak to the template tho.

And how are those two summons abilities supposed to work together? He can summon 66 hd a day, max 24 on one critter, the summons have +50% hd... So he summons two 16 hd critters that have +8 hd each and then one 12 hd critter with +6 hd? What's he doing? Bringing slightly buff planetars and astral devas to a level 30+ fight to serve as body pillows?

CR = 2/3 ECL

Nah, he can summon 3 33 hit dice Solar Angels with that Adjuration ability. Takes him a standard action for each one and he has Gate to supplement it. He's CR 28, so you probably shouldn't be smashing his face in with level 30+ characters. Summoning isn't a very good strategy, so you shouldn't have any trouble dealing with him at level 25.

[JMS]

I for one would most certainly look forward to new epic monsters, that actually work!

[Karl Aegis]

Achilles
A-Kill-ease

The daunting figure before you is a tanned, muscular man. He is clad in majestic golden armor, in fact all his equipment: spear, shield and sword are of gold. A great black plumed helm makes him appear even more imposing. He strides towards you with a confidence that is somewhat unnerving.

Achilles is a CR 26 Hero-Deity with class levels of Fighter 25 of the Greek Pantheon. He "enjoys" the Strength and War Portfolios and their spell-like abilities. Add the following to make him on par with a normal Hero-Deity:
Spell-like Abilities(Sp): At will - commune, dream, ethereal jaunt, geas/quest, greater dispel magic, greater teleport, magic jar, sending, tongues 3/day - limited wish
Speed(Ex): All movement mode tripled
Divine Senses: The senses of Achilles are triple that of a normal human.
Divine Aura: Achilles has a divine aura which extends out to 350 feet.
Achilles can sense when his aura comes in contact with another divine aura and both being will be able to sense the other's divine status.
Achilles can choose between the following effects each round as a free action:
Daze: Enemies must pass a Will save(DC 20) or be unable to act, other than defend themselves, for 1 round. (Like the condition, but not a condition??)
Fear: Enemies must make a Will save(DC 20) or be shaken.
Heroism: Allies within the aura gain a +2 morale bonus to attack rolls, saves, and skill checks.

He can fly at-will from his armor and he hits things with a spear. Honestly, just watch out for his crushing hand spell-like ability and keep your health high to avoid the power words. Honestly, I don't see how a prepared level 15 party couldn't take him down. He gets things done with his leadership feat and Divine Retinue. Be prepared to be absolutely buried in myrmidons if you try to take him on.

His avatar is nothing special, either.

Next time: Vainamoinen the Quasi-Deity. He's Finnish.

[Karl Aegis]

Vainamoinen
Vay-Na-Moy-Nen

The man before you appears at first glance in his fifties or perhaps older. His long hair and even longer beard are the color of morning snow. He wears a dark green tunic, a black hat; banded with red, and a bright red cloak. In his hands he carries a bright, glowing sword that competes to outshine even his hoary hair.

Vainamoinen is a CR 37 quasi-deity of the Finnish Pantheon. He's got at-will Polymorph, Shapechange and Mind Blank as supernatural abilities and a handful of weapons as artifacts. Watch out for those and maybe some bardic music and you're pretty much set. Not much else to say about him.

Next time: No-Cha. He can throw a brick at you.

[remetagross]

Dang, at least they made some effort to dig pretty deep into exotic pantheons! Vainamoinen, really?

[Malphegor]

The Achilles’ Heel ability on his Manfiestation seems about right. If you crit on him, you do an automatic maximum damage disregarding his damage reduction bit weirdly worded though, but seems ok.

Also his avatar doesn't mention his weakness under the same ability, merely gives him the DR. I guess the godly avatar of Achilles doesn't have the one thing everyone knows about Achilles, but a more human-ish version does? I guess that works out kinda.

Kinda interesting reading through an unfinished book though, seeing where they had placeholder text and all that.

I... guess if you were going to fight Achilles, you'd want a crit-fishing build.

[Karl Aegis]

No-Cha
No-Cha

The bizarre silver-skinned individual before you has three faces, eight arms and carries an eclectic array of items including: a flaming spear, a golden brick, two black shortswords, a panther skin bag and a bronze bracelet. The figure is garbed in black and red with what appears at first glance to be a fourth face adorning its chest is in fact a silver mask, although you could swear it just winked at you. Each of its faces bears a mischievous grin as if stifling some joke at your expense.


No-Cha is a CR 46 Demi-Diety with class levels of 26 Rogue and 13 Sorcerer of the Chinese Pantheon. He has six extra arms, each with 7 Strength when he is at Medium size. This strength increases or decreases when No-Cha changes size, up to 37 Strength at Gargantuan size. He has the portfolios of Fire and Thievery, giving him a suite of spell-like abilities. His extra heads let him cast 2 additional spells without somatic components or use two additional spell-like abilities per round. He's got at-will Greater Teleport and Time Stop, so even readying actions between his two Greater Teleports per round might not even work all the time. Oh, and he gets an attack when he "leaves the fight", so he can simply teleport in and out, sneak attack as he leaves and steal one of your spells when he does. Self-concealment means he's hard to see and/or hit. Amazing Pockets is a [SU] ability that lets him pocket objects the same size as him in an effect similar to the Maze spell. That includes you, the player.

For items he has a brick, a spade, a bracelet and a mask. The mask apparently changes properties depending on which face wears it to... a different face. Incomplete item. The brick can be thrown and deals a small handful of damage and takes your wealth from you. This is usually an epic spell or an artifact at the level you would fight him. He can throw it every round. The bracelet steals your life instead of your wealth. Get it off with a wish or a miracle or hope your fortitude save is high enough to last forever. The spade is a Fading weapon: make a really low save when it hits you or you disappear forever. The save increases if he keeps hitting you with it. Oh, and he has a bag that controls air elementals. Cool.

All in all, I don't see a surefire way to take him down solo. Hard to pin down and he can just pocket you if you get out of hand. He has a ton of hit points and self-concealment, so fighting him head-on isn't an option, either. Decent for a demi-deity.

Next time: The Lesser Goddess Hecate of the Greek Pantheon. She has infinite epic spells.

[Khedrac]

All in all, I don't see a surefire way to take him down solo. Hard to pin down and he can just pocket you if you get out of hand. He has a ton of hit points and self-concealment, so fighting him head-on isn't an option, either. Decent for a demi-deity.
I think the answer is that for 1 v 1 whoever sees the other first probably wins.

Next time: The Lesser Goddess Hecate of the Greek Pantheon. She has infinite epic spells.
Lesser goddess? Eeek.

[danielxcutter]

Well, not sure how well it ended up, but they sure had a bunch of cool ideas and made the effort to use pantheons that haven't been rehashed literally hundreds if not more times, I'll say that. Which is honestly more than WotC did.

[Karl Aegis]

Hecate
Hey-Ca-Tay

This incredibly beautiful woman has long black hair down to her waist. But for her cloak and jewelry she stands unashamedly naked before you.


Hecate is a CR 62 Lesser Diety with class levels of 54 Sorcerer of the Greek Pantheon. She is privileged enough to have the Magic and Moon Portfolios. She traded most of her Divine abilities for the Cosmic ability to cast infinite spells per day. She also knows all spells. As such, she has the ability to counterspell any spells you try to cast at her, for what that's worth. She has artifacts, an avatar, an aspect and quite a few metamagic feats. But, no. She's essentially a high-op epic spellcaster. She basically has no reason to not have every spell going at the same time. Her vulnerabilities are "make one". Her one opening is she doesn't have enough wisdom for the epic feat that lets you replay enough rounds each day to essentially make you invulnerable. Good luck, young space pirate.

Next:
The Intermediate Deity Horus. He has a +69 sword. He has no trouble hitting other deities, for what that's worth.

[remetagross]

It's interesting to see these dudes are less of a pushover given their CR than most of what all the previous Epic monsters were.

[danielxcutter]

It's interesting to see these dudes are less of a pushover given their CR than most of what all the previous Epic monsters were.

If we set the bar lower, we'd need a 50 ft. burrow speed to pass under it.