Heal, mass: the ultimate answer vs undead nPcs?

[Mrark]

So I am overthinking about this uber war against this huge lich army, and all the possibile spell and tactics to prepare. So basically, we are gonna bait this whole huge army for a massive battle right outside a stronghold (You could argue: why are they coming out if it is a stronghold? The answer is that those structures are thought as safe caveaus more than fortesses: adventurers (even high levelled ones) can not enter there easily, as they must spend some time breaking through the defenses. So you can’t melt your enemies from inside, the objective is to keep enemies outside as long as help arrives)


Sooo, bypassing the introduction and all the protective spells our army should have to fight a 400 liches army, i just thought about Heal, mass.
This spell uses a 9th level slot, yes, but a single 17+ level cleric might be able to destroy a good dozen of liches every time. Am I missing something? Like this actually seems too good to me. Give a powerful cleric a rod of quicken metamagic: superior, and every round he can deal from 170 up to 340 damage to almost every damn lich in the nearbies, since the will save only halves the damage. Is that it?

[Cygnia]

A (competent) sentient undead like a lich would probably have contingencies set up to severely hamper with that sort of plan.

[frogglesmash]

Wait, are you fighting an army of 400 liches, or a lich's army that is 400 strong?

[Mrark]

Wait, are you fighting an army of 400 liches, or a lich's army that is 400 strong?

The first one.

[Mrark]

A (competent) sentient undead like a lich would probably have contingencies set up to severely hamper with that sort of plan.

Our Dm houseruled a limit of max 1 contingency for balance purposes, so even in that scenario it is not that bad

[Torpin]

wait never mind wrong edition.

but it will be stopped by the liches using greater dispe to counter

[Helluin]

Wait, are you fighting an army of 400 liches, or a lich's army that is 400 strong?

It sounds like the former, which leads me to the question: just what level is your party playing at???

Also, Life Ward & Spell Turning (although the latter wouldn’t harm the cleric casting Heal, it does protect the liches).

Mass Heal damage caps at 250 btw

[Cygnia]

Our Dm houseruled a limit of max 1 contingency for balance purposes, so even in that scenario it is not that bad

Per NPC? Because I'd want my minions/allies/dominated cannon fodder throwing themselves at the PCs/counterspelling/focus firing on clerics/buffing me with negative energy. And that's just with ONE lich in play.

400 liches?

Each one SHOULD then be backed by their own army!

[Mrark]

sorry to break it to you

Where did you find this? In every source I’ve been looking for it is stated that it works like heal, pointing the fact that against undead it works like harm

[Mrark]

Per NPC? Because I'd want my minions/allies/dominated cannon fodder throwing themselves at the PCs/counterspelling/focus firing on clerics/buffing me with negative energy. And that's just with ONE lich in play.

400 liches?

Each one SHOULD then be backed by their own army!

Ok so let me be clearer ahahah we also have an army, we are a lvl 18 party, and it Will be a clash between two big armies, the evil one with slightly more casters, and ours with a good amount of fighters more than them. So pretty equal (In the campaign, the dm managed to almost level the differences between casters and mundanes)

[Mrark]

It sounds like the former, which leads me to the question: just what level is your party playing at???

Also, Life Ward & Spell Turning (although the latter wouldn’t harm the cleric casting Heal, it does protect the liches).

Mass Heal damage caps at 250 btw

Spell turning won’t work I Guess, it’s an AoE effect. Why should life ward do it?
Yes I know the cap, i was thinking about heal, mass + quicken heal, mass

[Mrark]

wait never mind wrong edition.

but it will be stopped by the liches using greater dispe to counter

Well maybe. Still a caster level check

[ericgrau]

Well maybe. Still a caster level check

And a readied action. Which would be smart because there are so many liches. But also all this supposed planning may be beyond a lone DM. They might just have some basic buffs and jump in with attack spells blazing. In fact, don't forget about mass harm. I'm hoping these 400 liches aren't level 18 too, but even at lower level multiple liches spamming mass ILW can be deadly. (1d8+10) x 400 or even a small fraction of that to 10ish of the PCs or your allies is ouch. In general watch for area/mass spells and scatter a bit. Employ area/mass spells of your own. Heck spamming wall of fire might do more than even mass heal due to the area, if enemies are too tightly packed. 1/3rd the damage, no save, but SR yes. 360' long (72 squares) instead of 18 targets. Plus some lesser damage 20' away from the wall. And it's level 5. You can empower, quicken and/or etc. for way more.

[Mrark]

And a readied action. Which would be smart because there are so many liches. But also all this supposed planning may be beyond a lone DM. They might just have some basic buffs and jump in with attack spells blazing. In fact, don't forget about mass harm. I'm hoping these 400 liches aren't level 18 too, but even at lower level multiple liches spamming mass ILW can be deadly. (1d8+10) x 400 or even a small fraction of that to 10ish of the PCs or your allies is ouch. In general watch for area/mass spells and scatter a bit. Employ area/mass spells of your own. Heck spamming wall of fire might do more than even mass heal due to the area, if enemies are too tightly packed. 1/3rd the damage, no save, but SR yes. 360' long (72 squares) instead of 18 targets. Plus some lesser damage 20' away from the wall. And it's level 5. You can empower, quicken and/or etc. for way more.

Mass harm is not a spell in 3.5 actually.

A part from that, i like your advice, and I will follow it, but see the battle more like a “huge amount of groups fighting groups”, because we will teleport the great majority in the middle of their army, a big surprise. Also, take for granted that eveybody will fly. If you have any other ideas I’d be glad to hear them :P

[Mechalich]

Mass Heal requires the various targets to be within 30 ft. of each other, a trait that it shares with numerous other multi-target spells capable of harming your average lich, such as Meteor Swarm. Liches are intelligent opponents capable of moving in three dimensions and striking from extremely long range. They aren't going to march in formation like infantry, and should in fact maintain considerable dispersion to avoid any and all possible overlapping AoE effects. Even in a very low-op scenario with the liches physically present and acting as blasters, you should think of their deployment as resembling a large unit of helicopters. They may move in an overall formation, but each one is an individual target.

[Mrark]

Mass Heal requires the various targets to be within 30 ft. of each other, a trait that it shares with numerous other multi-target spells capable of harming your average lich, such as Meteor Swarm. Liches are intelligent opponents capable of moving in three dimensions and striking from extremely long range. They aren't going to march in formation like infantry, and should in fact maintain considerable dispersion to avoid any and all possible overlapping AoE effects. Even in a very low-op scenario with the liches physically present and acting as blasters, you should think of their deployment as resembling a large unit of helicopters. They may move in an overall formation, but each one is an individual target.

I generally agree, though it depends on the battlefield composition. And such large numbers can not be easily spread without losing “fire power”, there aren’t much low range spells

[Helluin]

Spell turning won’t work I Guess, it’s an AoE effect. Why should life ward do it?
Yes I know the cap, i was thinking about heal, mass + quicken heal, mass

It does work, because Mass Heal is not an AoE effect; it targets multiple individuals. There is a difference.

Life Ward protects against all positive energy effects.

[Jack_Simth]

So I am overthinking about this uber war against this huge lich army, and all the possibile spell and tactics to prepare. So basically, we are gonna bait this whole huge army for a massive battle right outside a stronghold (You could argue: why are they coming out if it is a stronghold? The answer is that those structures are thought as safe caveaus more than fortesses: adventurers (even high levelled ones) can not enter there easily, as they must spend some time breaking through the defenses. So you can’t melt your enemies from inside, the objective is to keep enemies outside as long as help arrives)


Sooo, bypassing the introduction and all the protective spells our army should have to fight a 400 liches army, i just thought about Heal, mass.
This spell uses a 9th level slot, yes, but a single 17+ level cleric might be able to destroy a good dozen of liches every time. Am I missing something? Like this actually seems too good to me. Give a powerful cleric a rod of quicken metamagic: superior, and every round he can deal from 170 up to 340 damage to almost every damn lich in the nearbies, since the will save only halves the damage. Is that it?

Nah. If you're facing an army of liches, put the fear of you into them. Do a Scry & Fry with Miracle (to bypass the casting time), duplicating Charnel Fire (Book of Vile Darkness) . Possibly with a Greater Rod of Chain Spell. Hit a bunch of them, vanish... and then do nothing for eleven days. After that, send a letter to those who remain offering them a chance to surrender and continue to exist. Something along the lines of abandoning their leader to his fate, and staying away from this prime material plane for the next 1,000 years or some such.

Per Charnel fire: "If the undead creature fails its save, it is destroyed forever." (Emphasis added)

Which means their phylacteries don't help.

[Remuko]

Mass harm is not a spell in 3.5 actually.

I looked it up. Its in Heroes of Horror. I'm guessing thats 3.0 but 3.0 material is part of 3.5. I dont think Harm, Mass has a 3.5 update, but its quite clear what it should do if updated.

[Psyren]

I looked it up. Its in Heroes of Horror. I'm guessing thats 3.0 but 3.0 material is part of 3.5. I dont think Harm, Mass has a 3.5 update, but its quite clear what it should do if updated.

Heroes of Horror is 3.5 (published in 2005) so you're all set.

[Mrark]

It does work, because Mass Heal is not an AoE effect; it targets multiple individuals. There is a difference.

Life Ward protects against all positive energy effects.

Uh I confused it with death ward ahahah that might be a problem. Guess we Will have to disjunction the whole situation before.
Regarding spell turning, interesting thing to know, but still I don’t mind making them waste the full spell. More, it’s 1d4+6, so it might not work against a 9 level spell. A good 50%

[Mrark]

Heroes of Horror is 3.5 (published in 2005) so you're all set.

Stil looks very less powerful than Mass heal, why did they make it work different??

[Mrark]

Nah. If you're facing an army of liches, put the fear of you into them. Do a Scry & Fry with Miracle (to bypass the casting time), duplicating Charnel Fire (Book of Vile Darkness) . Possibly with a Greater Rod of Chain Spell. Hit a bunch of them, vanish... and then do nothing for eleven days. After that, send a letter to those who remain offering them a chance to surrender and continue to exist. Something along the lines of abandoning their leader to his fate, and staying away from this prime material plane for the next 1,000 years or some such.

Per Charnel fire: "If the undead creature fails its save, it is destroyed forever." (Emphasis added)

Which means their phylacteries don't help.

This, my brother, is very interesting

[Jack_Simth]

This, my brother, is very interesting

Lichhood is fundamentally selfish, and about avoiding risk. When Death just means a 1d10 day setback, it's not a big deal, and Lich's will be ready to risk it. Often. Demonstrate that when you do it, it's forever, and all that readiness evaporates. Mind you: Your DM has to go along with it for it to work, but it's a story-solution, so he might.

Oh, you will need some way to get Reach spell on there to make it chain-able, though. Shouldn't be a problem - a 5th level spell metamagic'd by +2 is still a 7th level spell slot, well within Miracle's limitations.