3.5e - Do you use Hide/Move Silent, or houserule into Stealth? Why?

[Albions_Angel]

Hi all,

Just fancied hearing some other peoples thoughts as to what they do. Not looking for a "better/worse" situation, just interested who uses these skills as designed, and who houserules them into 1, if other houserules around them are in play, and why.

For my part, I love them being separate. I can see the sense in Hide and Move Silently being different. There are items and enhancements and spells that affect 1 and not the other, and they make sense to me. I even go a little further and remove armor check penalty from Hide, because it requires cover anyway (without the feat). A man in full place SHOULD be able to hide behind a wall if he stands very still. He shouldnt be able to move silently with ease. Thats just how I run my games though, and its certainly not the only way :)

[Saintheart]

When I've gummed them together, it's been mostly for convenience.

But I can see how separate Move Silently and Listen checks can be pretty good. After all, you could easily have someone who's trained himself to remain perfectly immobile such that to the human eye he disappears. How could you detect such a creature except by the noises he makes?

http://www.48min.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/14-Infinity-War-GIF-Drax-creepy-how-long-standing-there.gif

[Eldan]

I've actually expanded the list of skills, I always thought it was a bit short. Of course, I also give everyone considerably more skill points. What can I say, I like granularity.

[Albions_Angel]

I've actually expanded the list of skills, I always thought it was a bit short. Of course, I also give everyone considerably more skill points. What can I say, I like granularity.

I would be interested to see that list...

[Morty]

I see no reason to treat them separately and I can't think of other games that do, except maybe GURPS. Yes, technically they're not the same thing, but in practice if you want to be good at getting to places unnoticed you'll need both. So splitting them just means a character who wants to be stealthy has to spend twice as many skill points.

[awa]

now I could see a special ability like freeze or camouflage that grant a bonus to stealth when the target is not moving. But as two skills it make stealth twice as expensive and doubles the chance of failure because you need to pass two skill checks to hide rather than one.

Considering the number of hard counters to stealth it is not so op that it needs to be crippled like that.

[Zaq]

The argument for splitting H/MS is basically that people want Spot and Listen to be separate. Which, like, I guess I can see where that desire is coming from—it makes sense for some effects to boost one but not the other. The trouble is that the result is, well, too many skills and too few points. Even if you give more skill points, I don’t like rolling twice for each attempt at being stealthy.

I’m in favor of Stealth/Perception versus Hide/MS/Spot/Listen. What value is added by rolling twice when you really only need to roll once?

[Telonius]

We houserule them into Stealth. One less "Skill Tax" for your typical Rogue. Rogue standards like UMD, Hide, Move Silently, Search, and Disable - well, that's five of those 8+Int skills, 3+Int spare doesn't feel like all that much wiggle room. Speeds up gameplay, too - just one roll instead of two.

[frogglesmash]

I consolidate them, but will occasionally treat then as separate for the purpose of some rolls/bonuses. For example, invisibility obviously makes your very hard to see, but hearing you shouldn't be any more difficult than normal.

[Ashtagon]

I consolidate them (and Spot/Listen are consolidated too). However, I tally up the DCs for vision-based and sound-based Stealth vs. Perception, and the stealther uses whichever DC check would end up harder.

[awa]

I consolidate them, but will occasionally treat then as separate for the purpose of some rolls/bonuses. For example, invisibility obviously makes your very hard to see, but hearing you shouldn't be any more difficult than normal.

I do something similar but only when the modifier would be big such as that invisibility you mentioned.
I'm curious though it seems every one who posted here combines them unless I'm miss remembering, but I'm wondering how much of that is related to only people who care about that posted to this thread. I know i only made this change in the last few years (along with a large number of other house rules) and i have never been a player in a game that did that.

[frogglesmash]

I do something similar but only when the modifier would be big such as that invisibility you mentioned.
I'm curious though it seems every one who posted here combines them unless I'm miss remembering, but I'm wondering how much of that is related to only people who care about that posted to this thread. I know i only made this change in the last few years (along with a large number of other house rules) and i have never been a player in a game that did that.

There's definitely some selection bias, though I suspect it's more common than other house rules due to it being RAW in Pathfinder.

[Luccan]

I'm in a group that squishes them into Stealth and Listen/Spot into Perception. At first, I wasn't sure I liked it. Then I played 5e, where skills are fairly limited even for the skill monkeys. But those skills now do just enough more on their own to make them worth it. And in thinking on it for 3.5, it's probably better. First, when do you ever take just one? How often do you cross-class MS and/or Hide? And how many classes just have one? Maybe 3 base classes in the entire game. And honestly, I think that might be higher than in reality. Some prestige classes might too, but that seems more a kick in the butt than an actual boon. So we know the vast majority of players are taking both any way, if they're taking them at all. It's a tax and not a fun one. In my 3.5 game, my psychic rogue can actually be a decent face and do psionic stuff better because I don't have to worry about pumping extra skills.

That said, it's probably true that being good at quite movement and being good at remaining unseen probably don't have a huge overlap. Seeing and hearing are separate senses. And when a class, character, or monster only has one of the skills, it tells me something about it. I'm glad it's a lost artifact to later editions, but I probably won't complain about seeing the separation in my next 3.5 game.

[Albions_Angel]

Cool :) Im seeing a common theme in those that do join them. And yeah, with it being Core Pathfinder and 5e, I expected a lot of people to do it. One of the reasons I specified 3.5 in the title.

I wonder if its a playstyle thing. The groups I play are typically very low op, and the games I run and play are face-light - ie there isnt much social rolling going on. So people tend to take 5 ranks in balance and then sink the same core skills every time. And rogues, scouts, ninjas etc all get ample skill points to max out search, spot, listen, disable device, open lock, hide, move silently, and one other (and nearly all skill monkies I have ever seen have had positive Int). I also rarely see people roll their stealth checks. They all take 10s. So with that surety, maybe its easier for my heavy armour guys to know they will be able to hide behind the wall if they dont move (take 10 in hide only, untrained or with a few skill points, no ACP), while the rogue sneaks across the room and opens the door (take 10 in hide and move silent, likely both the same number, both high). If the heavy armour guy needs to follow, they can either take a 10 in the ACP'ed move silent, likely a fail, or chance it with a roll.

I think my players are also more likely to buy non-optimal things. There is an armour addon (non magical) that helps with move silently armour checks I think. So then the cleric can stealth just fine.

Still, its interesting. Its pretty much the main thing I hate about 5th so good to see so many other like the change :)

[Eldariel]

I see no reason to treat them separately and I can't think of other games that do, except maybe GURPS. Yes, technically they're not the same thing, but in practice if you want to be good at getting to places unnoticed you'll need both. So splitting them just means a character who wants to be stealthy has to spend twice as many skill points.

There's one big thing: classes can have one but not the other as class skills. Trickery Cleric has Hide but not Move Silently, Swordsage has Listen but not Spot, etc. That makes for a character who has one part covered but has to do something for the other (in Cleric's case, at least; you can use Silence to negate the need for Move Silently, but it comes at a cost; and you can of course try to crossclass it or stalk stationarily but Move Silently would expand your options).

[Clistenes]

I think it doesn't make much sense to have Listen/Spot as two separate skills, and the same goes for Hide/Move Silently... I mean, what would be the point of learning to Hide without trying to Move Silently at the same time? To sneak on a group made entirely of deaf people?

As for Spot and Listen, if you are searching for hidden enemies, you will use both sight and hearing... Search covers seeking stuff using your eyes only...

But it makes sense to make separate rolls for Hide and Move Silently and for Spot and Listen... if you are dressed in a flashy party outfit, but you remove your boots and walk on a thick carpet, you would have a penalty to Hide but a bonus to Move Silently...

[frogglesmash]

I think it doesn't make much sense to have Listen/Spot as two separate skills, and the same goes for Hide/Move Silently... I mean, what would be the point of learning to Hide without trying to Move Silently at the same time? To sneak on a group made entirely of deaf people?

As for Spot and Listen, if you are searching for hidden enemies, you will use both sight and hearing... Search covers seeking stuff using your eyes only...

But it makes sense to make separate rolls for Hide and Move Silently and for Spot and Listen... if you are dressed in a flashy party outfit, but you remove your boots and walk on a thick carpet, you would have a penalty to Hide but a bonus to Move Silently...

The logic for separating spot and listen is that binoculars help you see, not hear, and no matter how carefully you listen at a door, you'll never see what's on the other side.
My reasoning for consolidating them is they're both generally used in tandem, and it provides a nice boost for mundanes by freeing up some skill points, and done magic item slots. I do however, recognize the need for treating them as separate in some cases, and will do so when the occasion calls for it.

[Zaq]

The logic for separating spot and listen is that binoculars help you see, not hear, and no matter how carefully you listen at a door, you'll never see what's on the other side.
My reasoning for consolidating them is they're both generally used in tandem, and it provides a nice boost for mundanes by freeing up some skill points, and done magic item slots. I do however, recognize the need for treating them as separate in some cases, and will do so when the occasion calls for it.

Yeah, this. I get why it’s kind of intuitive to want to split them, but the real effects at the table are pretty much just annoying. I agree with the solution of making bonuses that really should just affect one or the other just affect one or the other. There’s no shortage of RAW game elements that boost skill checks for specific purposes but not for others, so saying that an effect that only boosts your vision gives a bonus to “Perception checks to spot things” makes sense to me. You still only roll one Perception check against one Stealth check, but you bring only the appropriate circumstantial bonuses to bear.

[skunk3]

We combine listen and spot as well as hide and move silently into Perception and Stealth. The end result is making characters a bit more capable in terms of skills without seriously imbalancing the game. Ever since I started playing like this I don't want to go back because I feel like skill points are so precious and few.

[Necroticplague]

I keep them as two skills for simple mechanical reason: bonus stacking. I don't want to have to constantly ad-hoc whether a bonus to Stealth/Perception applies in this scenario, simply because part of it would have before. For example, do i have bonuses to hide and bonuses to move silently both work with this new skill? Then vampires get a +16 to it right off the bat, unless I go ad-hocking every source of Hide or Move Silently (and, by extension, Spot and Listen) ahead of time. If they don't all, then i have to go through and constantly make rulings.

[frogglesmash]

I keep them as two skills for simple mechanical reason: bonus stacking. I don't want to have to constantly ad-hoc whether a bonus to Stealth/Perception applies in this scenario, simply because part of it would have before. For example, do i have bonuses to hide and bonuses to move silently both work with this new skill? Then vampires get a +16 to it right off the bat, unless I go ad-hocking every source of Hide or Move Silently (and, by extension, Spot and Listen) ahead of time. If they don't all, then i have to go through and constantly make rulings.

This is really easy to adjudicate, if a source gives bonuses to both, you only use the best one. Most other problems are solved by the rules on bonus types and stacking, leaving only a few edge cases like invisibility.

[Eldan]

I would be interested to see that list...

I don't have one list. I tend to make one for every campaign I run, depending on what it is based on and what the world is like. Mostly, it's new knowledge and craft skills, but occasionally more. That said, I generally try to make sure everyone gets at least 8 skill points per level.

[Luccan]

I don't have one list. I tend to make one for every campaign I run, depending on what it is based on and what the world is like. Mostly, it's new knowledge and craft skills, but occasionally more. That said, I generally try to make sure everyone gets at least 8 skill points per level.

What are some non-craft/Knowledge skills you've implemented, then? I feel like those two do tend to get expanded on in different settings, but they're also fairly generic skills. What's a situation where you felt the need to implement an entirely new skill the game was lacking?

[Quertus]

Well, I'm lazy, so I'll not make a house rule if I don't have to.

On the one hand, what do you roll to see if the PCs notice a smell? OTOH, it's cool to be an unseen sound, or a Silent Image. "He's clearly just an illusion - there's no sound. It's just an illusion of someone sneaking past us. Ignore it, and be on the lookout for the Wizard.".

[Eldan]

What are some non-craft/Knowledge skills you've implemented, then? I feel like those two do tend to get expanded on in different settings, but they're also fairly generic skills. What's a situation where you felt the need to implement an entirely new skill the game was lacking?

Well, thing is, most could conceivably be covered under Profession or Craft, those are so dang broad. But I've had a skill called Aethershaping, once, that allowed drawing small amounts of aether from the air and forming it into useful objects. Quite setting dependent. Once I split Survival into different skills for survival/tracking and navigation, because i wanted one, but not the other, available to seafarers. Uh, there's probably more.

[Psychoalpha]

When we were still playing 3.x, we pretty much immediately used Stealth and Perception. It seemed like a really bad design choice to use both, and I don't really get some of the objections. Binoculars give you a bonus to Perception when trying to see things far away, they don't give you any kind of bonus to other uses of Perception. Plenty of magic items give a bonus to X when Y, instead of all the time, so what's the problem?

Same with monsters. Vampires in 3.5 get a +8 to Hide and +8 to Move Silently, so they get a +8 to Stealth. How is that even remotely a problem to figure out? o.O If the values are different, use the highest: Again, this is something we did years before Paizo ever came out with Pathfinder.

[Luccan]

Well, thing is, most could conceivably be covered under Profession or Craft, those are so dang broad. But I've had a skill called Aethershaping, once, that allowed drawing small amounts of aether from the air and forming it into useful objects. Quite setting dependent. Once I split Survival into different skills for survival/tracking and navigation, because i wanted one, but not the other, available to seafarers. Uh, there's probably more.

Fairly setting specific, so fair I guess. Although I don't know if that's a "too few" problem and more a "didn't have this specific thing one game needed" problem. As for the Survival split, they did that in 3.0 and then pushed them together in 3.5 presumably because no one was taking Intuit Direction or Wilderness Lore on their own. Well, maybe the second one, but I certainly never had a 3.0 character that took ID, including my Rangers (which I think were one of two classes that could take it anyway) and I never saw anybody else take it either.

I agree that if you're going for a certain type of verisimilitude all sailors being excellent survivalists is a bit weird. On the other hand, someone clearly noticed there were too many skills people just didn't care about on their own. I think you have to make exceptions like that or you'll find situations where either:

no one can tell which way north is at 10 in the morning despite the sun always rising from east
or
all your survivalists are only sort of good at most aspects of survival because they don't have enough skill points

Neither of which is really desirable for a heroic adventure game, most times.

Slight tangent: Intuit Direction, as written, was a stupid skill. Trained only, DC 15 every time, only to determine North, nat 1 makes you think it's the wrong direction regardless of circumstance. You have to use that roll for an entire day.

[Biggus]

now I could see a special ability like freeze or camouflage that grant a bonus to stealth when the target is not moving. But as two skills it make stealth twice as expensive and doubles the chance of failure because you need to pass two skill checks to hide rather than one.

Considering the number of hard counters to stealth it is not so op that it needs to be crippled like that.

Yeah, this is the main problem that I've experienced with keeping them as two skills: unless your Hide and MS are extremely optimised, there's very little chance of you not being noticed at all, especially if there's a whole group of people making Spot and Listen checks. I'm currently still playing with them as two separate skills, but I'm considering folding them together primarily for this reason.

[Eldan]

Slight tangent: Intuit Direction, as written, was a stupid skill. Trained only, DC 15 every time, only to determine North, nat 1 makes you think it's the wrong direction regardless of circumstance. You have to use that roll for an entire day.

Oh, I remember, I played 3.0 too. Navigation was a bit broader. I folded in cartography and some astronomy too.

[Endarire]

I prefer the consolidated skills since they're inherently connected. Making one roll for each is faster, simpler, and probably far more fair to the one making the skill check. Certain things only apply to audio or visual like silence or invisibility, but they're the exception.

[awa]

Yeah, this is the main problem that I've experienced with keeping them as two skills: unless your Hide and MS are extremely optimised, there's very little chance of you not being noticed at all, especially if there's a whole group of people making Spot and Listen checks. I'm currently still playing with them as two separate skills, but I'm considering folding them together primarily for this reason.

yes that another thing sneaking past say 40 guards is almost impossible unless you are vastly better than them that's 80 chances to roll a nat 20 per rnd, so you had better hope you are massively better than them which turns stealth into an all or nothing affair either you put a ton of resources into it or you don't even bother. Worse stealth is one of those things where the rest of the party drags you down.

The odds of 4 pcs sneaking past those same 40 guards is vastly worse. Combining the skills does not completely fix this but it does make it a lot less painful inflicting less chances to fail and requiring fewer resources be spent.

In regards to people who complain about realism well maybe consider all those old men with eagle eyes from their high wisdom scores, and the fact that bookish nerds are better at climbing, jumping, swiming then dumb jocks because of the extra skill points. D&D is not perfectly realistic and that's a good thing the real world is messy and complicated and would make a lousy game. Just because it is realistic does not mean it is fun. Oh sure realism can be good but you need to decide where to spend your efforts and where the extra complexity is more hindrance then help.

The early comment about finding directions and wilderness lore is the same thing.

[frogglesmash]

yes that another thing sneaking past say 40 guards is almost impossible unless you are vastly better than them that's 80 chances to roll a nat 20 per rnd, so you had better hope you are massively better than them which turns stealth into an all or nothing affair either you put a ton of resources into it or you don't even bother. Worse stealth is one of those things where the rest of the party drags you down.

My aim when consolidating hide with move silently, and spot with listen is to free up more build resources for mundanes. I find that a far more effective solution to the problem you've brought up is to import the passive perception rules from 5e, i.e. anyone who's not actively searching is treated as taking 10 on their perception check.

[Yahzi]

I use them separately but for different roles.

Move Silently is what I use for sneaking past guards, setting ambushes, etc. - i.e. what most people mean by stealth.

Hide is more of a passive skill. For random encounters I have each party roll their highest Spot check against the other party's lowest Hide check, to determine if either party has surprise.

Admittedly it's a weak difference but I was trying to preserve the original skill list. Although I went ahead and dropped Listen, because it's just silly. You can give a bonus for sound-based spot checks, but you can't actually train yourself to be better at hearing.

[frogglesmash]

Although I went ahead and dropped Listen, because it's just silly. You can give a bonus for sound-based spot checks, but you can't actually train yourself to be better at hearing.

You can definitely train yourself to be better at hearing. Obviously you can't train yourself to have better hearing, but you can learn to better differentiate one sound from another, thus identifying which sounds are out of place. Ear training is a very similar exercise that musicians engage in to increase their ability to differentiate between different pitches.

[Biggus]

I find that a far more effective solution to the problem you've brought up is to import the passive perception rules from 5e, i.e. anyone who's not actively searching is treated as taking 10 on their perception check.

That's a good idea, nice one, I may well adopt that.


You can definitely train yourself to be better at hearing. Obviously you can't train yourself to have better hearing, but you can learn to better differentiate one sound from another, thus identifying which sounds are out of place. Ear training is a very similar exercise that musicians engage in to increase their ability to differentiate between different pitches.

Yeah, I was going to say similar. It's debatable whether the ear can be trained, but the brain definitely can.

[Albions_Angel]

Yeah, I dont make rolls for everyone in a large group. I didnt think people actually did that. While I dont take a 10, I simply make 1 roll for each spot and listen, using the average check of all the NPCs, at -2 if there are 3 of them, and an additional -2 for every 5 additional NPCs. Replicates them quietly chatting, slacking off, etc. Easier to sneak past a large group despite the many eyes and ears, because of all the distraction they generate.

[Biggus]

yes that another thing sneaking past say 40 guards is almost impossible unless you are vastly better than them that's 80 chances to roll a nat 20 per rnd


Yeah, I dont make rolls for everyone in a large group. I didnt think people actually did that.

I wasn't actually thinking of a group that large, rolling for 40 people separately would be tedious and time-consuming apart from anything else. Also, if they're all on the alert it should be difficult to get past that many people without being noticed. But even with a group of 4-5 people who are reasonably alert there's a good chance of being detected under the standard rules unless your Hide and MS results are so high most of them can't make it even on a natural 20.

For example, take a Rogue trying to sneak past a group of just 4 people who each need a natural 20 to detect him on both Spot and Listen; the odds of success are only just over 66%. If they're combined into one roll, the odds increase to over 81%.

[Psyren]

I find the situations where one being higher than the other matters are usually far rarer than the ones where someone trying to be sneaky needs both. So I'd be in favor of consolidation even if everyone had twice as many skill points to go around.

For those rarer situations, I find it more helpful to apply a circumstance modifier to the combined skill (bonus or penalty depending on the scenario), rather than keeping them as separate skills.

[Phillyg]

So we know the vast majority of players are taking both any way, if they're taking them at all.

I prefer Perception over Listen/Spot; but I usually spend more ranks on Spot than on Listen when they are cross-class. My PCs rarely have enough ranks and mods to compete with a rogue. Spot is more useful than Listen against other encounters.

[Luccan]

I prefer Perception over Listen/Spot; but I usually spend more ranks on Spot than on Listen when they are cross-class. My PCs rarely have enough ranks and mods to compete with a rogue. Spot is more useful than Listen against other encounters.

I'd actually argue Listen is the better skill. It seems to me that there are more ways to fool the eye than the ear in the game. Plus Listen can give you warning when there are solid barriers, so long as they aren't too thick. Not so much more useful that it's always the go to pick, but if I could only have one...

[GreatDane]

My group house-rules them into a single skill (Spot/Listen, too), simply because no player/character ever wants to rank up just one. If everybody who maxes Spot also maxes Listen, why bother dividing them?

[BassoonHero]

I combine both stealth and perception skills. I think it's good for playability, but Quertus's point is what motivated me:


On the one hand, what do you roll to see if the PCs notice a smell?

Humans have two "major" senses: vision and hearing. They also have "minor" senses: smell, touch, and taste (plus more obscure senses like proprioception and a sense of time). In a human-centric game, it makes sense to give special treatment to vision and hearing. But D&D is chock-full of extraordinary senses: blindsight/blindsense, tremorsense, darkvision and low-light vision, scent, various magical detection spells, and so on. In a stereotypical high-level game, an adventurer may rely more on extraordinary senses than on the ones they were born with (the ones for which the rules are chiefly designed).

There is no "sniff" skill. If there were, then no would would have any ranks in the corresponding perception skill ("deodorize", one presumes). There are no skill checks for blindsight or tremorsense. These abilities interact very poorly with the existing perception/stealth skills. Blindsight is an absolute defense against Hide and Move Silently -- unless the opponent took the Darkstalker feat (as any high-level rogue should), in which case the abilities cancel out. Broad, absolute defenses are boring. Silver bullets that negate abilities are boring. Mandatory feat taxes are boring. A mandatory feat tax required to negate a common monster ability that would otherwise negate your primary schtick is just awful.

D&D really needs a unified perception system. It doesn't have to be complicated -- in fact, it can and should be simpler than the current mess of special cases. I've looked at Mutants and Masterminds for inspiration, although that's more granular than even 3.5 should need. In the absence of such a system, a single Perception skill at provides an answer to Quertus's question.

[Psyren]

Pathfinder's "Perception" uses all 5 senses. It's up to the GM to determine whether a given sense can be used at all (some smells are too faint for creatures without Scent to even discern) and, even if it's possible, whether to apply a bonus or penalty depending on the situation.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

D&D really needs a unified perception system. It doesn't have to be complicated -- in fact, it can and should be simpler than the current mess of special cases. I've looked at Mutants and Masterminds for inspiration, although that's more granular than even 3.5 should need. In the absence of such a system, a single Perception skill at provides an answer to Quertus's question.

I've 'brewed up a unified perception system myself, pretty much as you've described. Creature senses are given a category (either primary, secondary, or tertiary, which basically correspond to vision, hearing, and smell in humans, and respectively let you draw line of sight, locate things but not draw LoS, and detect but not locate things, with exceptions for particularly strong stimulus), a scope (either directed like human vision or omnidirectional like human hearing), and an activity (passive like most senses or active like magical senses), and there are standard rules for how checks work when you can't apply any primary/secondary/tertiary senses, sane distance modifiers instead of the "-1 per 10 feet" rule intended for determining encounter distances, and so forth.

Senses in general are classified in terms of source (what can be sensed), intensity (equivalent to blinding/daylight/normal lighting/shadowy light/darkness for vision), and obstruction (what can be done to hide from those senses, in terms of cover, concealment, and camouflage). Darkstalker is no longer necessary if you want to hide from any non-human senses, Blindsight has been removed in favor of primary hearing/scent/tremorsense/etc. (and Blindsense in favor of secondary or tertiary senses), and the Perception and Stealth rules are a lot more intuitive.

[BassoonHero]

I've been considering a similar tiered system — with “primary”, “major”, and “minor” senses — but probably with a little less detail (e.g. probably not worrying about scope).

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Scope is basically there as a way to describe corner cases like detect X spells and beholder eye rays caring about vision cones, monsters with lots of eyes being able to ignore flanking, and such in a consistent way; describing a xorn's vision as "Sight (Primary, Omnidirectional)" instead of giving it an "All-Around Vision (Ex)" trait, or saying that detect thoughts grants you "Mindsight (Secondary, 60-foot Cone)" instead of describing how you move the spell's area each round, doesn't really add any complexity and actually cuts down on the verbiage in most cases.

One thing I did do with it, though, is add variable alertness states to handle things like "I want to sneak up behind him" or "I press myself against the ceiling so the guard doesn't see me" or "I stare at the door, crossbow ready" without introducing full-on facing rules. Having a single system for Focused characters with a very narrow zone of awareness, Alert characters with a wider arc of awareness, or Wary characters who are looking in every direction, all with varying Perception bonuses and penalties for things within and outside of their awareness ranges, allows for transitioning fluidly from stealth to chases to combat and back again.

[RedWarlock]

If we're talking extensive houserules, for my game, the Perception skill becomes character-core, while the Stealth skill becomes heavily investment-based.

So for me, using a difference-based measurement, my homebrew system replaces Wisdom with Perception, and promotes "Notice" into a base save, alongside Reflex AKA "Quick", Fortitude AKA "Tough", and Will (now Charisma-based), alongside Brawn and Focus (for Strength and Intellect). Those base saves are also used for any and all active checks (aside from attacks), and Notice is also the Initiative check.

Stealth is a kind of knowledge (ranks are d6s, and usually used in non-combat checks), but has two relevant derived combat powers, "Hide" (Notice check, for staying unseen under cover) and "Sneak" (Quick check, for moving around). Those powers are also super-cheap to learn, and add ranks of Stealth to the basic check, but they also have easy ways of sharing Stealth to other party members in the system (each rank of a knowledge grants a knowledge-based feat, and one of the options basically reduces your effective Stealth by a rank to add half your total Stealth ranks, rounded up, to all allies, their effective ranks not to exceed your total ranks).