Sauron vs Voldemort

[Executor]

I recently got into an argument today with a friend. He's a big fan of modern, pseudo-fantasy like Harry Potter, I prefer classic high fantasy like the Wheel of Time. Being the pair of geeks we were, we inevitably got into a massive debate over who was the superior evil overlord and tyrant, Sauron of Lord of the Rings fame or Voldemort from Harry Potter.

Now I think the answer should be obvious. Sauron (going by the books) is a demi-god, the utter incarnation of all mortal evils. In physical form he's a 7 foot tall monstrosity that can kill hundreds, thousands, without breaking a sweat. In spiritual form he can see everything in the entire world, probably able to find anyone anywhere. At his beck and call are millions, possibly billions, of ferocious orcs and beasts with penchants for dismemberment and no concept of personal safety. His 9 chief servants, the Nazgul, are impervious to all weapons, cause fear in all life with their very presence and are unparrelled warriors and sorcerors. The head of the Nazgul, the Witch-King, could be an evil overlord in his own right, but he's just one of Sauron's many servants. Hell, Sauron even routinely practices genetic engineering by crossbreeding different types of orcs and trolls to create larger, faster, stronger, smarter monstrosities.

Voldemort, on the other hand, is just a man. A paticularly stubborn man that refuses to die. He's nothing but a racist with a wand and fairly formidable magic skills. The closest equivalent I can think of would be a racist with a gun and markmanship skills gunning down blacks/asians/indians/whites/whatever. His servants are nothing but a handful of other racist wizards with some serious superiority complexes. He also has soul-sucking Dementors, I think Giants but I can't quite remember clearly, and Werewolves.

So, we debated this for some time without reaching any consensus. My friend seemed to think a single "Avada Kedavra" could kill Sauron, I pointed out that Sauron was a God. He said that individually, a wizard is absolutely superior to an orc, I pointed out that Sauron has millions of orcs whilst Voldemort only has a few dozen wizards. We reached no agreement other than to disagree. But what do you guys here at Giant at the Playground think? Who would win in an all-out war, each Dark Lord having the maximum amount of possible resources. To do this, let us say that Mordor materialized in our world, orcs and all, somewhere in Europe near to Britain. So, Sauron or Voldemort?

PS: I have to say, in terms of his name, Sauron is so much cooler than 'Voldemort'

[Eita]

Voldemort would be decimated. Sauron > Voldemort and all of his henchman.

The only reason Sauron was 'killed' was because he had his ring chopped off. Voldemort of course, would not know of Ringlore, and so he would not think of chopping off Sauron's hand.

[bluewind95]

I personally think it's a bit of an unfair comparison. Their context is too different to really compare them.

I believe both are "the ultimate evil overlord" in their own respective context.

Sauron comes from a world of high magic where non-human creatures and demigods are possible. He has the greatest resources available in his context.

Voldemort comes from a much more "human" context. He does not have access to the possibility of being a demigod and such a big number of non-human creatures with such strength as Sauron's creatures. His evil comes not so much from an idealized version of "pure evil", but from a human source: a superiority complex. However, in his context, he has the highest amount of possible resources.

In an outright war between the two, I'd say Sauron is more likely to win, due to the fact his world allows him more resources than Voldemort's. However, relatively speaking (And thus fairly!) I believe they're both about the same. Trying to compare them in a "war" among them, though, is much like trying to compare a praying mantis to a cat as predators. Which is the superior predator? The cat, or the mantis? The cat can kill the mantis, yes, but in their world, in their context, both are equally awesome predators, adapted perfectly to their environments.

[Leper_Kahn]

I've always thought of Voldemort as a very, very weak villain. Nothing more than a jerk/raciest. I've haven't really thought much about LotR or read much on it, but I think that a demi-god of any sort beats Voldemort. Plus you're absolutely right. Sauron has armies and those sorts of things and all Voldemort really has is himself and a few devout helpers. I think that giants would leave Voldemort as soon as a million orcs charge them.

There's also the fact that Voldemort loses his wand and he's screwed and Sauron always has his powers. Even if he dies. (One ring.) Then again Voldemort has several soul things, but they don't corrupt and have a mind of their own like the ring does.

Also when you think about it all Voldemort needs to get put down is 100 fairly trained people with guns. There are only so many times he can yell that spell that kills people before he gets hit by heavy fire.

One final thing on the ring. If I was Sauron I'd give Voldemort the ring and then gain a pretty good servant/wait until he is really really really easy to betray.

[Turcano]

I think you put it best yourself. This isn't even a contest.

Moreover, Sauron was once himself a lieutenant; there are much, much bigger evil fish in the Middle-Earth pond.

[JonathanC]

Shortest fight ever. Voldemort is incredibly effective...in the Harry Potter universe. Drop him in a D&D campaign, and he's basically a lich with delusions of grandeur. He wouldn't last a week in a high fantasy setting. Gandalf/Elminster/whoever would send a group of mid/high level adventurers to his place and they'd have him dead in a few hours.

This is not a knock on the Harry Potter universe at all, mind you. The value of a villain has less to do with how powerful they are, but how well they fit into the story. But Sauron is on a different level of power than Voldemort, plain and simple. That said, I wouldn't bother arguing this with your friend. People take this kind of crap personally, even when they're hopelessly wrong. I once saw some kids on Gaia arguing that Sephiroth could beat Galactus. I had only brought the topic up as a joke, and bam! There go a bunch of Sephiroth fanboys/girls with no earthly idea who Galactus is arguing that he could be beateh by a guy less powerful than the cosmic heroes that Galactus creates.

[Dhavaer]

This isn't a contest at all; Sauron has overwhelming numerical superiority. If you erased Voldemort's personality and just kept his abilities he could win, but as it is his anti-muggle stance prevents him from capitalising on his world's superior technology.

Voldemort + Death Eaters + Aurors is a fairly formidadable force; between Apparition and Killing Curses they could pull of an effective guerilla war. But Sauron's upper leadership (himself + Nazgul) have some powerful magic themselves, and are sufficiently unkillable for a decapitation strategy to be implausable. They could probably do quite a number on the orc hordes with Dementors, and Potter-verse giants would appear to be superior to LotR trolls, but in the end numbers are likely to win out.

[Don Julio Anejo]

The problem is you can't really compare their resources. Sauron has his own country with millions of orcs and is himself a demigod (he's a Maia, same order of power as Gandalf, Saruman, etc, although more powerful than they are). Voldemort is just a very powerful human with spells, etc. He has a group of similarly minded henchmen fighting in a mostly secret war. Hey, if Brits really knew about him and got pissed off enough, they could knock him out with a few cruise missiles (or worst case scenario, lay a trap and blow up a tactical nuke) with help from Order of the Phoenix.

In terms of resources Sauron would be closer to Hitler circa 1939. Give Hitler superhuman powers and whatever resources he already had and he would be equal to Sauron.

[Serenity]

It reminds me of something I saw on a LJ community somewhere, a poll about who would win in a fight between Harry Potter and Cthulhu. Some snarky idiot said Cthulhu "because he represents the adult world, and Harry can't live in the adult world," or something like that Completely ignoring the fact that they're simply on entirely different power scales. It's comparing apples and Armageddon.

So, yeah, Sauron would win. He's the sort you don't bother statting out; if the party meets him face to face, they lose. Doesn't mean Voldemort is any less a dangerous or effective villain.

[blue chicken]

Voldemort...the lamest villain ever. Seriously! If you're going to take over the world, why not at least issue your sidekicks a .44 for when Potter and his band of half-baked miscreants manage to break their wands?

...or heck, better yet, why not just give them all shotguns in the first place?

^Mostly kidding, but you get the point. I just...Voldemort never seemed like a legitimate threat to me. Sauron, on the other hand, is entirely terrifying, though I don't think the books do him justice based on what my Tolkien-nerd friends have told me. (you know those people. "Well, if you look back to the First Age when the Silmarilsyada yada...")

[Leper_Kahn]

Voldemort...the lamest villain ever. Seriously! If you're going to take over the world, why not at least issue your sidekicks a .44 for when Potter and his band of half-baked miscreants manage to break their wands?

I don't think of this as a joke at all. If I wanted to kill Voldemort the first thing I'd do is grab some serious firepower as well as a swat shield. Whatever the killing spell hits it bounces off of. Now I have cover and possibly a fully automatic weapon. If I had friends with me even more than that. What the hell do I care that Voldemort can kill a person with one spell? I can shoot crap loads faster than he can yell a spell at my face.

Also if I had access to training/long range weaponry I'd fly an army blackhawk at him and end it there. If I had long range weaponry, can you say smart bomb? It takes a push of a button thousands of miles away to kill him...

[Dhavaer]

Whatever the killing spell hits it bounces off of.

Are you sure? I'm fairly sure I remember it exploding at least once.

[Em Blackleaf]

I'd say Sauron, Voldemort is powerful, but he couldn't kill a baby and continues to get thwarted by the same baby.

[kazo0ie]

sauron!!voldemort is a undernnourished racist.
think of that:if eventually voldemort runs out of mana?what then?stick poking...?

[Dhavaer]

if eventually voldemort runs out of mana?

Potter-verse magic doesn't have a cost. It doesn't tire you out any more than speaking and waving a short stick in any other way would.

[Skippy]

I'd say Sauron, Voldemort is powerful, but he couldn't kill a baby and continues to get thwarted by the same baby.

You just 0wn3d this thread.

Sauron, hands down. Voldemort is really week. Even Shadow could vanquish him.

[Nerd-o-rama]

What? How is this even a question?

Demi-god (or god, really, as he's certainly more powerful than other Maiar as presented) with entire nations at his direct beck-and-call, versus a guy with a wand, some sidekicks, and more phylacteries than is good for him.

Sauron, corporeal, just beats the **** out of him. Incorporeal, he mobs him with 10 million orcs. Seriously, what the hell is Voldy going to do? Even if Sauron dies, he's immortal unless someone chucks the One Ring into Mount Doom. Voldy, admittedly, has more phylacteries, but they are far more vulnerable.

[Justin_Bacon]

I recently got into an argument today with a friend. He's a big fan of modern, pseudo-fantasy like Harry Potter, I prefer classic high fantasy like the Wheel of Time.

I'm trying to figure out what you could possibly mean by the words "pseudo" and "classic" here, but my dictionary has spontaneously combusted under the strain.


(Re: Sauron) In spiritual form he can see everything in the entire world, probably able to find anyone anywhere.

Clearly not true. It would have been a very short book if that had been the case.


So, we debated this for some time without reaching any consensus. My friend seemed to think a single "Avada Kedavra" could kill Sauron, I pointed out that Sauron was a God. He said that individually, a wizard is absolutely superior to an orc, I pointed out that Sauron has millions of orcs whilst Voldemort only has a few dozen wizards. We reached no agreement other than to disagree. But what do you guys here at Giant at the Playground think? Who would win in an all-out war, each Dark Lord having the maximum amount of possible resources. To do this, let us say that Mordor materialized in our world, orcs and all, somewhere in Europe near to Britain. So, Sauron or Voldemort?

You've actually missed the most important thing: Sauron can't die while the Ring exists. Voldemort can't die while his horcruxes exist.

That gives Voldemort a 6-to-1 advantage over Sauron. Plus, once you've eliminated the horcruxes, you've still got to actually kill Voldemort (whereas destroying the Ring wipes out Sauron without any further ado).

I think Sauron's Achilles' heel is much larger, but -- due to the corruptive influence of the Ring -- it's actually much easier to destroy the horcruxes (assuming you can find either one). Voldemort wouldn't last half a second against the seductions of the Ring.


The only reason Sauron was 'killed' was because he had his ring chopped off. Voldemort of course, would not know of Ringlore, and so he would not think of chopping off Sauron's hand.

This seems like a poor assumption. Voldemort, fascinated with all lore likely to give him an increased lifespan, would clearly be interested in ringlore if he exited in Sauron's fictional milieu.


Shortest fight ever. Voldemort is incredibly effective...in the Harry Potter universe. Drop him in a D&D campaign, and he's basically a lich with delusions of grandeur.

Basically? He is a lich. Rowling just changed the name from "phylactery" to "horcrux" and give him six of them.

It's been clear since Chamber of Secrets that Rowling played D&D at some point. The proof? Polyjuice potion. A potion of many juices? Doesn't make a lick of sense. That's a name that only make sense if you're thinking of a polymorph spell. And the only way you're thinking of that is if you are or have been a gamer.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Basically? He is a lich. Rowling just changed the name from "phylactery" to "horcrux" and give him six of them.

It's been clear since Chamber of Secrets that Rowling played D&D at some point. The proof? Polyjuice potion. A potion of many juices? Doesn't make a lick of sense. That's a name that only make sense if you're thinking of a polymorph spell. And the only way you're thinking of that is if you are or have been a gamer.

Not true. Polymorph is a real word, not just a DnD word.

DnD majorly mirrors fantasy stories. You can easily ignore DnD and go straight for the sources DnD used.

The Phylactery thing is a very common device used by mythological wizards.

I think Voldemort actually has 7 Horcruxes.

[Greebo]

I think Voldemort actually has 7 Horcruxes.



I think someone needs to read book 7...

Anyway, Sauron, hands down.

Look, Sauron didn't need no stinking horcruxes to avoid dying. Sauron was defeated (as in, corporeally destroyed) two times in the ages before the 3rd age of man. Once when he assumed the form of a Vampire, and once after he persuaded the Numenorians to assail Valinor and Numenor was destroyed. After the 2nd time, he could no longer assume fair form, but he COULD and did come back. The third time he was destroyed, by Isuldur, he had put his power into the ring. While Sauron did this to gain power over the other races, it also created his only real, true weakness. Only by putting himself into the ring, which COULD be destroyed, could he ever truly be subject to utter destruction. In fact, even then, he lives on, but without the power of the ring, he is an ancient shade of evil unable ever to regain power.

Voldemort, on the other hand, was born a mortal, and was just avoiding death.

Honestly, your friend needs to study the Silmarillion...

[Quezovercoatl]

Executor, please head over to Spacebattles.com (www.spacebattles.com) to collect your Vlad Teaps Award for Senseless Violence and Unnecessary Cruelty.

[Winterwind]

The only way I see how Voldemort could win this contest would be if he got hold of the One Ring. He surely would be corrupted by it instantly, but on the other hand, there's not much to be corrupted about him anyway. Sufficiently powerful beings can use the One Ring to defeat Sauron, even though they turn evil by doing so. Voldemort wouldn't mind becoming evil; it's debatable whether he's powerful enough (he's, after all, not a Maiar like Gandalf and Saruman), but I imagine he might be.

Otherwise, he will be destroyed before he sees what hit him.

Though I agree with bluewind95. They do come from too different worlds for this to be a fair comparison. Also, while most people who have read the Silmarillion (including myself) will surely arrive at the impression that Sauron would shrug off an Avada Kedavra like nothing, there is no way how one could prove this. While we can argue that a demigod (or, more precisely, a high-ranking fallen angel) shouldn't have to worry about mere mortal magic, there is no way to prove to, say, Executor's friend, that an Avada Kedavra doesn't kill everything instantly, as it does in the Harry Potter setting (at least as far as I remember). That's the trouble with comparing completely different fantasy worlds.

[LordVader]

As long as Sauron has the Ring, Voldemort is doomed. And unless Voldemort plans on getting within melee range of Sauron, which is a horrible idea, Sauron is invincible.

Your friend can't really think a piddly human can beat a demi-god of evil incarnate.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I'm trying to figure out what you could possibly mean by the words "pseudo" and "classic" here, but my dictionary has spontaneously combusted under the strain.
My thoughts as well. Seems to be a bit of a bias there.


This seems like a poor assumption. Voldemort, fascinated with all lore likely to give him an increased lifespan, would clearly be interested in ringlore if he exited in Sauron's fictional milieu.
Not necessarily. Voldemort had a nasty habit of dismissing anything he thought had the slightest drawback. Part of his superiority complex. If he found one thing that seemed to imply his horcrux solution was better than the rings used by Sauron, Voldemort would probably stop his studies right there.


There's also the fact that Voldemort loses his wand and he's screwed...
Not totally screwed. Voldemort was very much hinted at being extremely strong in wandless magic. Which is saying something in the Harry Potter world.


Then again Voldemort has several soul things, but they don't corrupt and have a mind of their own like the ring does.
Uh, re-read Chamber of Secrets please. I do believe "a mind of its own" is exactly how Dumbledore described the diary in Half-Blood Prince, as well.

And, if you haven't yet, read Deathly Hallows:
That locket certainly had a corrupting influence.

In many cases, the influences of the Horcruxes were worse than the One Ring. They certainly developed their most dramatic effects far more rapidly.

[hr]n any case: yeah, there are two very different contexts here. This is a pretty silly concept. It is indeed that cat vs. praying mantis scenario described above.

[WhatIsGravity]

How can you ever take a villain in a children's book seriously?

[Shhalahr Windrider]

How can you ever take a villain in a children's book seriously?
One: Please don't dismiss a work purely because of its target age group. Many children's books portray their stories far better than those written for adults. Just because it's written for a younger audience doesn't mean it has cartoonish or otherwise less serious villains.

Two: Follow the series please. It may have started out with a simple children's book, but the Harry Potter series matured quite quickly. It seems to me, the target audience was generally about the same age as Harry was in any given book.

The Hobbit was also a pretty simple children's book, and that set the stage for The Lord of the Rings.

[DomaDoma]

In a hypothetical ass-kicking contest, Sauron would win handily. But it was never really personal with Sauron, so Voldemort is the better villain.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

In a hypothetical ass-kicking contest, Sauron would win handily. But it was never really personal with Sauron, so Voldemort is the better villain.
Depends on what you mean by "better villain".

Yeah, the ones that make things personal tend to be easier to really get into. They can go wild and easily take the audiece with them. And they are often so much more fun to write and portray. Villains that make things personal are often (but not always) so much "juicier" than those who don't. They are better villains on a meta-level since it is easier to provoke reactions from the audience.

But then those that don't make things personal are usually more effective at what they do. They don't let their prejudices cloud their judgement. These villains get things done. They are better villains on a in-world level because they can be a bigger threat.

[Aizle]

Heh, fantasy geekery at it's finest.

Aside from the fact that we might as well be arguing if Superman would win in a contest with Mighty Mouse, Sauron would own Voldemort unless he got VERY sloppy or Voldemort got VERY lucky.

[Winterwind]

On the other hand, a non-evil wizard from the Harry Potter universe would have shortened the Lord of the Rings greatly. Just apparate to the Crack of Doom, et voilà! :smallbiggrin:

[Nerd-o-rama]

On the other hand, a non-evil wizard from the Harry Potter universe would have shortened the Lord of the Rings greatly. Just apparate to the Crack of Doom, et voilà! :smallbiggrin:
Winterwind, that's a preposterous idea. That's almost as stupid as taking a ride on some of those kickass giant eagles that Gandalf was BFFs with and could have easily asked the favor of to airlift themselves to Mordor. Ridiculous!

Or, in Deathly Hallows, not wearing the goddamned evil locket after it's proven to have dangerous effects. Ludicrous!

Plus, even the good mages in Harry Potter are arrogant enough (compared to hobbits, I mean) to have been corrupted fairly quickly.

[ray53208]

oh please! sauron would use vauldemort as a toilet brush, slap his momma, and then have some pudding.

sauron is god-like. vauldemort cant beat a whiney teenage wizard-in-training in one-on-one combat.

[Thinker]

To answer the question I ask a question:

Who was beaten by love? lulz.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Sauron was almost beaten by Friendship. It was enough to get everyone to the right place, anyway.

Actually killing him took the accidental sacrifice of a crackhead monster, though.

[Porthos]

Sauron would win, but not just because of the Power Issues. He would win because he is also The Necromancer, and is implied to be the ultimate Bad Ass when it comes to controlling Undead.

So if Voldy gets killed, Sauron nabs his soul and says thenk-you-veddy-much. Horcrux's, or no horcrux.

BTW: This whole "mastery over the undead" is why it would have been a tremendously bad idea to send the Army of the Dead over to Modor after they were done helping with the Battle For Minas Tirith. :smallbiggrin:

[Greebo]

Sauron was almost beaten by Friendship. It was enough to get everyone to the right place, anyway.

Actually killing him took the accidental sacrifice of a crackhead monster, though.
Noooo, I don't think so.

I don't think Sauron was almost beaten by any emotions. Sauron was defeated by arrogance. He believed that with so much raw power in the ring, nobody who found it would dream of destroying it.

Of course, Sauron was a real Evil Overlord type - staying out of the foreground and letting his minions do his bidding for him. Voldemort was a petty thug with a talent for magic.

[CrazedGoblin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6UABZA9ZpA&mode=related&search=

right good old voldy what can he do, ok big glowey wand thing, rubbish. animate glass, slightly better.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0NIBLEa7xuw&mode=related&search=

Sauron, cool mace and kills loads of soldiers and yes he dies (kind of) during the video but he still knocks everyone over, sorry about the annoying music its all i could find haha

[Solmage]

The only way I see how Voldemort could win this contest would be if he got hold of the One Ring. He surely would be corrupted by it instantly, but on the other hand, there's not much to be corrupted about him anyway. Sufficiently powerful beings can use the One Ring to defeat Sauron, even though they turn evil by doing so. Voldemort wouldn't mind becoming evil; it's debatable whether he's powerful enough (he's, after all, not a Maiar like Gandalf and Saruman), but I imagine he might be.

Otherwise, he will be destroyed before he sees what hit him.

Though I agree with bluewind95. They do come from too different worlds for this to be a fair comparison. Also, while most people who have read the Silmarillion (including myself) will surely arrive at the impression that Sauron would shrug off an Avada Kedavra like nothing, there is no way how one could prove this. While we can argue that a demigod (or, more precisely, a high-ranking fallen angel) shouldn't have to worry about mere mortal magic, there is no way to prove to, say, Executor's friend, that an Avada Kedavra doesn't kill everything instantly, as it does in the Harry Potter setting (at least as far as I remember). That's the trouble with comparing completely different fantasy worlds.

Actually, in the Harry Potter universe there are three explicit examples of the Avada Kedavra not working on its target: Two bounce backs and one completely ineffective usage. (I don't want to spoiler it in case someone is actually planning on reading that. Voluntarily. :smallbiggrin: ) Therefore it is quite logical to assume that even more magic may exist which counters this, it just hasn't been discovered yet.

With that in mind, there is a pretty good possibility Sauron would simply ignore it, what with being a demi-god and all.

However, the LOTRs magic is very ..limited, overall. It's more subtle, there are no wizards wiping out entire cadres of enemies with fireballs, summoning fires from the sky, etc. etc. In that regard, a properly coordinated attack by twelve HP wizards who could cast stuff as varied as mass confusion (confundus), mass toxic gases(swamp by weasleys with a deadlier twist), dominate enemy commanders, invisibility, etc could likely wipe out an army of any size who is for the most part made up of bow and axemen.

Therefore, I think it's safe to discount the actual individual resources and go straight into a nazgul + sauron vs. baldy + the hooded clowns =)

At the end of the day, I'm afraid that the fact HP magic is simply without any real boundaries would seem to indicate a likely win over villains that are far scarier, but a lot less omnipotent in their individual magic.

the HP magic is so annoyingly limitless in what it can do that unless the author explicitly states that something can't be done for completely arbitrary reasons ("ex: Can't create food & water because.. you can't."), then it can actually be done.

So, just picture some possibilities: simply create a teleport-Sauron-into-mount-doom spell or some other cheese, etc. Even if we were to give Sauron 100% mortal magic immunity, they could magic themselves ad-infinitum into formidable opponents who could best him in melee. (After all, if a mortal man with no extraordinary strength managed on a fluke to do it, a superman (thanks to magic super strength, super size, impenetrable skin, super luck, super accuracy, blah blah blah) is quite likely to succeed.

Anyway, regardless of who would win, this much is clear: "Baldy" is a totally laughable, not even mildly threatening villain, who relies on a big fat deux-ex machina to be even somewhat threatening, whereas Sauron is truly scary, so in that regard Sauron wins by a landslide :smalltongue:. Heck, Snape was a significantly scarier "villain" :smallamused:

(Speaking of ridiculous ... look at me, I know the avada kedavra! It can summon rabbits out of hats! Oh wait, that's the abracadabra..)

[Winterwind]

Winterwind, that's a preposterous idea. That's almost as stupid as taking a ride on some of those kickass giant eagles that Gandalf was BFFs with and could have easily asked the favor of to airlift themselves to Mordor. Ridiculous!

Or, in Deathly Hallows, not wearing the goddamned evil locket after it's proven to have dangerous effects. Ludicrous!Yeah, I admit, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Sometimes, you know, these strange strange thoughts appear in my mind. Heretic thoughts. Thoughts about "logic". Or lemon-flavoured ice cream.
Mmmm, ice cream...


Plus, even the good mages in Harry Potter are arrogant enough (compared to hobbits, I mean) to have been corrupted fairly quickly.Indeed. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT:

Actually, in the Harry Potter universe there are three explicit examples of the Avada Kedavra not working on its target: Two bounce backs and one completely ineffective usage. (I don't want to spoiler it in case someone is actually planning on reading that. Voluntarily. :smallbiggrin: ) Therefore it is quite logical to assume that even more magic may exist which counters this, it just hasn't been discovered yet.

With that in mind, there is a pretty good possibility Sauron would simply ignore it, what with being a demi-god and all. Good point; actually, the entire series in founded on one Avada Kedavra going completely awry. And I absolutely agree that Sauron should, by all means, completely ignore that spell (and everything else Voldemort could dish out). Unfortunately, somebody could declare he believes otherwise and beyond repeating that Sauron is a transcendental being, there would be no reasonable arguments to disprove him. And even that one is highly subjective.


However, the LOTRs magic is very ..limited, overall. It's more subtle, there are no wizards wiping out entire cadres of enemies with fireballs, summoning fires from the sky, etc. etc. In that regard, a properly coordinated attack by twelve HP wizards who could cast stuff as varied as mass confusion (confundus), mass toxic gases(swamp by weasleys with a deadlier twist), dominate enemy commanders, invisibility, etc could likely wipe out an army of any size who is for the most part made up of bow and axemen. LotR magic is indeed much more subtle, though we have to keep in mind that this is at least partially because the magic-capable characters just do not use magic needlessly on a daily basis, are few, and the one with the most "screen time" amongst them, Gandalf, is greatly hampered by taking human form. Also, controlling a river to an extent as demonstrated by Elrond and Gandalf together seems like a feat HP wizards would be hard pressed to replicate. Generally, HP magic is far from omnipotent, too - while HP wizards do not hesitate to use it for just about anything, they rarely, if ever, perform any truly epic spells. So I am not so sure about a mere dozen HP wizards taking on a well-organised, disciplined army.
Still, I think you're right with

Therefore, I think it's safe to discount the actual individual resources and go straight into a nazgul + sauron vs. baldy + the hooded clowns =)especially since it simplifies matters.


At the end of the day, I'm afraid that the fact HP magic is simply without any real boundaries would seem to indicate a likely win over villains that are far scarier, but a lot less omnipotent in their individual magic.

the HP magic is so annoyingly limitless in what it can do that unless the author explicitly states that something can't be done for completely arbitrary reasons ("ex: Can't create food & water because.. you can't."), then it can actually be done.

So, just picture some possibilities: simply create a teleport-Sauron-into-mount-doom spell or some other cheese, etc. Even if we were to give Sauron 100% mortal magic immunity, they could magic themselves ad-infinitum into formidable opponents who could best him in melee. (After all, if a mortal man with no extraordinary strength managed on a fluke to do it, a superman (thanks to magic super strength, super size, impenetrable skin, super luck, super accuracy, blah blah blah) is quite likely to succeed.I'm not sure... even though there are hardly any limits for HP magic stated doesn't mean there aren't any. For instance, the fact how terrified the people in the HP universe are by the Avada Kedavra spell - which is capable of killing merely one person at a time - seems to indicate the destructive potential of spells is rather limited. Likewise, what would they need stuff like difficult to brew potions to transform themselves if they could accomplish that without problems with a mere spell? So I rather doubt HP magic is as omnipotent as you argue it is.


Anyway, regardless of who would win, this much is clear: "Baldy" is a totally laughable, not even mildly threatening villain, who relies on a big fat deux-ex machina to be even somewhat threatening, whereas Sauron is truly scary, so in that regard Sauron wins by a landslide :smalltongue:. Heck, Snape was a significantly scarier "villain" :smallamused:

(Speaking of ridiculous ... look at me, I know the avada kedavra! It can summon rabbits out of hats! Oh wait, that's the abracadabra..)I have to read Deathly Hallows yet, but so far my opinion of the Harry Potter series is much kinder than that. I actually think within the context of his own world, Voldemort makes for a pretty good Evil Overlord.

[DomaDoma]

Anyway, regardless of who would win, this much is clear: "Baldy" is a totally laughable, not even mildly threatening villain, who relies on a big fat deux-ex machina to be even somewhat threatening

Totally not sure what you're referring to there. I assume you're talking about something in GoF, but I can't for the life of me think what.

[SurlySeraph]

As said above, Sauron's got the advantage. Both of them are unkillable by normal means, but Sauron's unkillable-er. The Ring can only be destroyed in one place in the world, a place which Sauron has guarded. The Horcruxes are hard to destroy, but all you need is a minor artifact. I'd say the 16 Rings of Power that Sauron does have would be strong enough to do the job. Besides, while both of them are overconfident, Sauron has a huge army. A handful of elite soldiers, no matter how elite, aren't going to have an easy time taking out millions of slavering orcs.

[Solmage]

Hrm. I'm afraid that my growing dissatisfaction with the HP series as the newer books were released made my previous post a bit too harsh, sorry about that.



EDIT:
Good point; actually, the entire series in founded on one Avada Kedavra going completely awry. And I absolutely agree that Sauron should, by all means, completely ignore that spell (and everything else Voldemort could dish out). Unfortunately, somebody could declare he believes otherwise and beyond repeating that Sauron is a transcendental being, there would be no reasonable arguments to disprove him. And even that one is highly subjective.

Well, in a purely theoretical scenario, it is impossible to find "actual proof" so one has to rely on logic. If one is unwilling to do so, and will only concede a point upon "irrefutable proof" then it's just a waste of time, and the exercise should cease. Example:

- "He was nearly dying and therefore would have been an easy match against Y."

Without any logic, you can simply counter it with

- "but but but! Maybe He had a secret super healing power that he hasn't used yet because he can only use it once! AND he this power allows him to summon ten super friends just before!"

...

So, relying purely on observation, we have the following facts:

- Avada Kedavra can be resisted by some magic.
- Some of the HP monsters are inherently magic resistant (shown: giants and dragons)
- There were three wizards in the past more powerful than Voldemort or Dumbledore (reference D.H.)
- Merlin is strongly alluded to have been the most powerful wizard of all time, so even more powerful than those three.

Now we apply logic to those and deduce that:

- If a giant could be killed by a single avada kedavra, they would be of absolutely no use in a war against wizards. We KNOW they are magic resistant, and we KNOW they ARE useful in such a war because both sides wanted to recruit them, so therefore we can extrapolate that their magic resistance would also help them against that spell.

- If a giant can have inherent magic resistance that would block or at least hinder avada kedavra, AND there are other magics which can stop it, then it's quite possible someone like Sauron could also be immune to such magic, and even if he isn't inherently immune, he likely could have a magic aura or item(s), like say the one ring, that made him invulnerable to such.

- Since it is explicitly stated that he can't die while wearing the ring, a spell which kills without trying to cut the ring off would simply not work.

- If the most powerful HP magic can be blocked by Sauron, then it's also possible that other spells like a severing charm, which CAN be blocked by any HP wizard, can also be blocked by Sauron.

Based on all this, it's reasonable to assume that Sauron would indeed ignore most mortal magic, except for that which didn't affect him directly (destroy the ground underneath him to stop him for a few seconds, or create a landslide, or or or)



LotR magic is indeed much more subtle, though we have to keep in mind that this is at least partially because the magic-capable characters just do not use magic needlessly on a daily basis, are few, and the one with the most "screen time" amongst them, Gandalf, is greatly hampered by taking human form. Also, controlling a river to an extent as demonstrated by Elrond and Gandalf together seems like a feat HP wizards would be hard pressed to replicate. Generally, HP magic is far from omnipotent, too - while HP wizards do not hesitate to use it for just about anything, they rarely, if ever, perform any truly epic spells. So I am not so sure about a mere dozen HP wizards taking on a well-organised, disciplined army.
Still, I think you're right with especially since it simplifies matters.


Yes, but you have to realize that Gandalf the white, by his own admission "the most dangerous creature you will ever meet unless you stand face to face with the dark lord himself", relied on a SWORD to do battle in Gondor. Also, if Saruman could have blasted all the ents from his tower, he would have done so. While Gandalf has great power, and he likely could create a powerful attack hurting half a dozen of orcs, one doesn't escape the feeling that doing so would drain him or make him quite vulnerable. Otherwise, why the heck keep slashing one orc at a time when there are 100,000 to kill.

As for the river effect, actually there are TONS of inanimate objects changed to do the most varied things in the HP universe, (chess, animated armors, stomping willow, entire castle with an impenetrable magic shield, etc) so I think it would be quite possible for an accomplished HP wizard to enchant a river to act thusly. While the enchanting might be laborious, once performed the river would do that on command quite easily.

As for Epic magic, well the thing is with HP neither the bad guys nor the good guys are trying to really kill anyone. They may claim it, but if that were the goal they'd all be dead. :smallmad:

Still, consider this, one of the LEAST accomplished, MOST PATHETIC wizards in the HP series managed to kill "dozens of people" with a single spell (Wormtail), as well as knock out Sirius, who then got blamed for it.

Other examples include the blowing up of the London Bridge (I think that was the one? Well, anyway.. some bridge :smallamused: )


For instance, the fact how terrified the people in the HP universe are by the Avada Kedavra spell - which is capable of killing merely one person at a time - seems to indicate the destructive potential of spells is rather limited.

It's not the fact that the A.K can kill a single person that makes it so dangerous, the danger is that, unlike every other spell, including the other unforgivable curses, it's the only spell that CANT be blocked, and in many cases, bounced back with a shield charm. So while a wizard could likely create a powerful explosion, the chances of it killing another wizard would be slim to none, unless said wizard was caught unawares, AND there were no defensive enchantments in place.

A key point in the HP universe is that wizards are more or less superior beings when compared to muggles. A simple spell stops ALL technology from working near Hogwarts for example. Some witches liked to be burned at the stake, for fun. All non-magical injuries are easily healable. So you NEED magic to hurt a wizard. So while there may be no mass WIZARD killing spell, that does not mean the wizard can't kill 10,000 people who don't enjoy such protection by creating a rain of fire.

So to summarize, the AK is feared in the WIZARD world. In the muggle world, just about anything else is more effective against masses.



I'm not sure... even though there are hardly any limits for HP magic stated doesn't mean there aren't any. [...] Likewise, what would they need stuff like difficult to brew potions to transform themselves if they could accomplish that without problems with a mere spell? So I rather doubt HP magic is as omnipotent as you argue it is.

Well, there ARE limits, but as I tried to mention, and it got lost a bit in my exposition-turned-rant =(, these limits are arbitrarily set by the author, rather than by any logic or reason, or even homogeneous flavor. Thus you need a potion that takes months to brew to change shape into someone else, but only seconds to cast an engorgement charm to increase your height, you can polymorph someone into any animal with a simple flick of your wand, but you can only transform yourself into a single animal type, and only if you undergo the difficult and apparently dangerous process of becoming an animagus...

So therefore, anything not explicitly stated to be impossible, is indeed possible with the discovery of a spell/potion/ritual for it, and in some cases, even things which were explicitly stated as being impossible (blocking the A.K.) become possible after using X or discovering Y.

So, we know the following things already exist:

- potion of prescient luck
- enlargement charm (engorgement)
- invisibility/camouflage
- polyjuice

It's therefore quite likely that the wizard that Sauron would face would be someone who has the prescience (felix felicious) to know exactly what to say and what to do to cut off his hand, AND all the luck in the world to accomplish it even in the least unlikely of circumstances, and would likely be larger, stronger, invisible, or disguised as a loyal orc, while attempting it.

And there's nothing to stop him from actually having discovered/invented the secret potion of skin to steel, strength of the titans, potion of godly heroism, enchantment of superior speed, etc.

And if he somehow fails, well his friend uses his travel back in time gizmo and he tries again.



I have to read Deathly Hallows yet, but so far my opinion of the Harry Potter series is much kinder than that. I actually think within the context of his own world, Voldemort makes for a pretty good Evil Overlord.

I found the first book thoroughly charming and enjoyable. Fairy tale like but more fun. I really enjoyed up to book 3 I think, although in 3 there were already things that started to annoy me. (The Bus, for example..) . At least I still enjoyed the story quite a bit, and in fact it was quite dramatic while still being enjoyable. From them on it went downwards for my taste, some books I enjoyed a bit more, some a lot less, but nothing even approaching the first three. And the last installment was completely disastrous for my enjoyment. Suddenly Baldy-no-mercy philosophy changes into 'no, don't kill them, don't waste pure wizard blood, even though they are blood traitors and members of the order of the phoenix..', and that's the least of my annoyances :smallwink:

Anyway, don't mean to derail this into the merits of HP or lack thereof from my point of view, so ehh, ignore that last paragraph. :smallsmile:

[DomaDoma]

- If a giant could be killed by a single avada kedavra, they would be of absolutely no use in a war against wizards. We KNOW they are magic resistant, and we KNOW they ARE useful in such a war because both sides wanted to recruit them, so therefore we can extrapolate that their magic resistance would also help them against that spell.


All fine for a war against wizards (in the era of Barty Crouch, that is), but the giants seem to be employed against Muggles. The stun-resistance that comes with giant blood doesn't strike me as the sort of power whose essence melts metal on contact.

Foiling the Killing Curse is clearly not a matter of raw magical strength, either. The three wizards you mentioned above didn't manage that any more than anyone else did.

Nonetheless, Sauron is something like a lesser god. I'm just guessing that throws a wrench into the Killing Curse.


Still, consider this, one of the LEAST accomplished, MOST PATHETIC wizards in the HP series managed to kill "dozens of people" with a single spell (Wormtail), as well as knock out Sirius, who then got blamed for it.

Pathetic, yes, but unaccomplished wizards do not become Animagi.


So while there may be no mass WIZARD killing spell, that does not mean the wizard can't kill 10,000 people who don't enjoy such protection by creating a rain of fire.

Then what does Voldemort need giants for?


So, we know the following things already exist:

- potion of prescient luck
- enlargement charm (engorgement)
- invisibility/camouflage
- polyjuice

It's therefore quite likely that the wizard that Sauron would face would be someone who has the prescience (felix felicious) to know exactly what to say and what to do to cut off his hand, AND all the luck in the world to accomplish it even in the least unlikely of circumstances, and would likely be larger, stronger, invisible, or disguised as a loyal orc, while attempting it.

And there's nothing to stop him from actually having discovered/invented the secret potion of skin to steel, strength of the titans, potion of godly heroism, enchantment of superior speed, etc.

And if he somehow fails, well his friend uses his travel back in time gizmo and he tries again.


Ja, there's a reason JKR destroyed all the Time Turners in book five and made the Felix Felicis brewing process a six-month ordeal requiring careful, more-or-less-constant babysitting. I don't see the Death Eaters holding off the massive hordes of orcs for those six months.

[LordVader]

In a hypothetical ass-kicking contest, Sauron would win handily. But it was never really personal with Sauron, so Voldemort is the better villain.

Depends on how you look at it. Sauron slaughtered hundreds of thousands of living beings. Entire armies of fell creatures and beasts marched at his command, laying waste to all they came across. The countries of Middle-Earth burned at his whim. He even annihilated not one, but two nations. He personally
went to Numenor and corrupted the king into betraying the Valar and dooming his entire nation. He also sent his servant, the Witch-King, to crush the realm of Arnor, again killing tens of thousands of people.

Voldemort committed a few dozen murders, gathered at most a thousand followers, including all the creatures, and just scared people, for the most part.

Tell me, who is the better villian?

Also, how do you propose to take down the Ringwraiths? They are manifestations of pure evil, essentially. Have fun.

[DomaDoma]

Tell me, who is the better villian?


The one you don't need to scour through appendices and addenda to hate, says I.


Also, how do you propose to take down the Ringwraiths? They are manifestations of pure evil, essentially. Have fun.

I did say Sauron would win.

[LordVader]

You don't need to scour through appendixes to see that Sauron has wasted entire lands. And I consider reading those appendixes part of reading the book, it's vital backstory. The fact is, Voldemort's piddly murders and terror tactics just don't measure up to what Sauron has done on sheer scale and malevolency.

[DomaDoma]

But then, Harry Potter has a smaller scale to begin with. Malevolence - read the seventh book, mate.

The thing is, my main criterion for a villain is that sense of "you frickin' bastard, you are so going down." We don't really get that with Sauron until the confrontation with the Mouth.

(Saruman's side, on the other hand, had it made.)

[LordVader]

I've read the seventh book, and honestly, the fear Voldemort inspires just isn't the same. Did you see how scared those people were in the LotR movie, I believe it was The Two Towers, when that massive beacon shoots into the skies from Minas Morgul?

Oh, they are afraid of Sauron. Very much so.

And Voldemort is more personal, but simply not as, well, good at being a villain. :P

[Winterwind]

Hrm. I'm afraid that my growing dissatisfaction with the HP series as the newer books were released made my previous post a bit too harsh, sorry about that.Nevermind that, it wasn't that harsh. Besides,

I found the first book thoroughly charming and enjoyable. Fairy tale like but more fun. I really enjoyed up to book 3 I think, although in 3 there were already things that started to annoy me. (The Bus, for example..) . At least I still enjoyed the story quite a bit, and in fact it was quite dramatic while still being enjoyable. From them on it went downwards for my taste, some books I enjoyed a bit more, some a lot less, but nothing even approaching the first three. And the last installment was completely disastrous for my enjoyment. Suddenly Baldy-no-mercy philosophy changes into 'no, don't kill them, don't waste pure wizard blood, even though they are blood traitors and members of the order of the phoenix..', and that's the least of my annoyances :smallwink: is actually fairly close to my own opinions considering the Harry Potter series, except that I haven't read the seventh book yet, and that I think the 3rd book was kind of a peak: the first three were excellent, the fourth slightly worse, but still quite good, fifth and sixth I didn't enjoy nearly as much.

Now, back to the topic...



Well, in a purely theoretical scenario, it is impossible to find "actual proof" so one has to rely on logic. If one is unwilling to do so, and will only concede a point upon "irrefutable proof" then it's just a waste of time, and the exercise should cease. Example:

- "He was nearly dying and therefore would have been an easy match against Y."

Without any logic, you can simply counter it with

- "but but but! Maybe He had a secret super healing power that he hasn't used yet because he can only use it once! AND he this power allows him to summon ten super friends just before!" Yes, you're right, and I completely agree (besides, I have participated in a fair lot of these versus-discussions on this forum here); my main reason for pointing out the impossibility of definite proof of one's superiority over the other was because the OP stated this discussion originated in a debate between him and his friend, and I wanted to explain that, no matter how many of us agree that Sauron would eradicate Voldemort, we won't be able to back this up with arguments which will be likely to be accepted by someone who initially takes the Voldemort-side of this debate.



- If a giant could be killed by a single avada kedavra, they would be of absolutely no use in a war against wizards. We KNOW they are magic resistant, and we KNOW they ARE useful in such a war because both sides wanted to recruit them, so therefore we can extrapolate that their magic resistance would also help them against that spell.I'll take this one argument out, since it's the only one I do not unconditionally agree with from the next passage; I always thought the reason why the evil side wanted the giants was because they knew the good side would never use the Unforgivable Curses to kill the giants just like that, which would make them much more difficult to stop, whereas the good side wanted the giants simply so that the evil side wouldn't get them. However, the rest of your argumentation seems perfectly sound, so...

[...]
Based on all this, it's reasonable to assume that Sauron would indeed ignore most mortal magic, except for that which didn't affect him directly (destroy the ground underneath him to stop him for a few seconds, or create a landslide, or or or)Excellent argumentation. I don't know whether it would convince an HP fanatic, but if it wouldn't, likely nothing would.


Yes, but you have to realize that Gandalf the white, by his own admission "the most dangerous creature you will ever meet unless you stand face to face with the dark lord himself", relied on a SWORD to do battle in Gondor. Also, if Saruman could have blasted all the ents from his tower, he would have done so. While Gandalf has great power, and he likely could create a powerful attack hurting half a dozen of orcs, one doesn't escape the feeling that doing so would drain him or make him quite vulnerable. Otherwise, why the heck keep slashing one orc at a time when there are 100,000 to kill.I always had the impression that in the LotR world, being a truly skilled and determined swordsman, wielding a magic weapon (which, in Gandalf's case, was specifically forged for war against orcs), possibly with a bit innate magic, and if possible Numenorian, Elven or Maiar blood, was much more effective than in the real world. Like in myths and fairytales, a determined swordsman is an equally dangerous foe as a wizard, and much more so than ever possible for mere mortals. I took this as the reason why Elendil and Isildur were able to defeat Sauron, or why Fingolfin was able to give Morgoth himself a good fight.
What I am trying to say is, I always thought the reason why Gandalf chose the sword over magic was not because magic was such an ineffective solution, but because the sword was such a formidable one.


As for the river effect, actually there are TONS of inanimate objects changed to do the most varied things in the HP universe, (chess, animated armors, stomping willow, entire castle with an impenetrable magic shield, etc) so I think it would be quite possible for an accomplished HP wizard to enchant a river to act thusly. While the enchanting might be laborious, once performed the river would do that on command quite easily.Good point; I should have chosen my words better, what I actually meant is that a HP wizard would be hard pressed to produce such effects instantly. Which is, of course, actually a pointless argument, because it is implied the river was already enchanted before, so it might take a LotR wizard just as long.


As for Epic magic, well the thing is with HP neither the bad guys nor the good guys are trying to really kill anyone. They may claim it, but if that were the goal they'd all be dead. :smallmad:Heh, that's true.
What I rather meant is, we don't see - or at least I don't remember it, which is far from being the same thing - a wizard manipulating something very huge with just a flick of the wand. There are some fairly impressive magic effects there, like that chess game, but that was already present and might have well taken days or weeks to enchant.
Okay, there's one exception I can think of: Dumbledore's redecorating of the Great Hall. That was a pretty large scale spell...


Still, consider this, one of the LEAST accomplished, MOST PATHETIC wizards in the HP series managed to kill "dozens of people" with a single spell (Wormtail), as well as knock out Sirius, who then got blamed for it.You shame me. :smallredface:
I completely forgot that.
Yeah, you're right; magic against muggles and unsuspecting wizards is indeed much more effective, and by far not limited to the Avada Kedavra.


Other examples include the blowing up of the London Bridge (I think that was the one? Well, anyway.. some bridge :smallamused: ) And that one I don't remember at all... was that in Deathly Hallows? :smallconfused:


It's not the fact that the A.K can kill a single person that makes it so dangerous, the danger is that, unlike every other spell, including the other unforgivable curses, it's the only spell that CANT be blocked, and in many cases, bounced back with a shield charm. So while a wizard could likely create a powerful explosion, the chances of it killing another wizard would be slim to none, unless said wizard was caught unawares, AND there were no defensive enchantments in place.

A key point in the HP universe is that wizards are more or less superior beings when compared to muggles. A simple spell stops ALL technology from working near Hogwarts for example. Some witches liked to be burned at the stake, for fun. All non-magical injuries are easily healable. So you NEED magic to hurt a wizard. So while there may be no mass WIZARD killing spell, that does not mean the wizard can't kill 10,000 people who don't enjoy such protection by creating a rain of fire.

So to summarize, the AK is feared in the WIZARD world. In the muggle world, just about anything else is more effective against masses.You're right. I concede I was completely wrong in my assessment of the effectiveness of HP wizards.


Well, there ARE limits, but as I tried to mention, and it got lost a bit in my exposition-turned-rant =(, these limits are arbitrarily set by the author, rather than by any logic or reason, or even homogeneous flavor. Thus you need a potion that takes months to brew to change shape into someone else, but only seconds to cast an engorgement charm to increase your height, you can polymorph someone into any animal with a simple flick of your wand, but you can only transform yourself into a single animal type, and only if you undergo the difficult and apparently dangerous process of becoming an animagus...

So therefore, anything not explicitly stated to be impossible, is indeed possible with the discovery of a spell/potion/ritual for it, and in some cases, even things which were explicitly stated as being impossible (blocking the A.K.) become possible after using X or discovering Y.I just realised I gave that much less thought than I believed I had. My apologies. Yes, you're right, HP magic is much more arbitrary than it seemed to me.
My point remains, though, that there seem to be some limits concerning the overall power level of spells. It is possible to transform others into animals; but a wizard transforming an entire, I don't know, mountain or so into a living being (at least, without an extensive ritual) would seem rather unfitting into the HP world to me. Granted, that's a pretty ridiculous example, but what I mean is, all magical effects I can recall and which stem from instant spells from individual wizards do not extend beyond certain scales.


So, we know the following things already exist:

- potion of prescient luck
- enlargement charm (engorgement)
- invisibility/camouflage
- polyjuice

It's therefore quite likely that the wizard that Sauron would face would be someone who has the prescience (felix felicious) to know exactly what to say and what to do to cut off his hand, AND all the luck in the world to accomplish it even in the least unlikely of circumstances, and would likely be larger, stronger, invisible, or disguised as a loyal orc, while attempting it.Oh dear, the felix felicious potion. Now that was a moment where I thought Rowling had gone quite a bit over the top with the power level of her magic. But you're right, a wizard could do all of that. The question is whether Sauron, being a demigod and all, could see through all of this magic. Chances are, he could not, since even his truly divine master could not see through a disguise crafted by a mere human mortal and an elven princess (Beren and Luthien).


And there's nothing to stop him from actually having discovered/invented the secret potion of skin to steel, strength of the titans, potion of godly heroism, enchantment of superior speed, etc.Could well happen. We shouldn't bring too far-fetched new stuff into the versus-discussion that we have never seen in the books... unfortunately, the examples you give are far from being far-fetched, given what we have seen in the HP series.


And if he somehow fails, well his friend uses his travel back in time gizmo and he tries again.Uah... and that's even worse than felix felicious. I liked book 3, but time travel really is not something one should introduce into one's setting without thinking twice. Or better, thrice.

Anyway, you make a good point for Voldemort... now one could of course argue that Sauron's power is so tremendous it will cut right through all the magic and right into the foolish wizard's soul (we know that the Nazgul use soul-affecting weapons, why not their master), but from there, it gets completely subjective...

[LordVader]

Sauron wouldn't kill him once he knew he couldn't be killed, he'd simply subdue him and throw him in Minas Morgul after he came back the second time. Not dead, but defeated.

[Justin_Bacon]

Not true. Polymorph is a real word, not just a DnD word.

A real word which does not mean "shapechange".

Justin Alexander
http://www.thealexandrian.net

[Setra]

I see Voldemort coming out slightly ahead... In googlebattle (http://www.googlebattle.com/index.php?domain=Sauron&domain2=Voldemort&submit=Go%21)

[Eita]

@Epic magic: There's epic magic in LoTR. Fellowship of the Ring. Saruman crashed a mountain on them by sending lightning bolts to strike the peak. He was miles away from the Misty Mountains.

I'm pretty sure the only reason Gandalf doesn't do that is due to it's indiscriminate nature and the intense concentration required (Saruman was standing there, repeating the incantation over and over).

[LordVader]

I see Voldemort coming out slightly ahead... In googlebattle (http://www.googlebattle.com/index.php?domain=Sauron&domain2=Voldemort&submit=Go%21)

That's because there's lots of kids who are just like
"Voldemort totally pwnz!"
without having read the LotR, probably. :smalltongue:
You have to read the books, the movies are excellent but don't really do justice entirely.

Also, for the "personal" aspect, what about Sauron in both Denethor's palantir and the one Pippin picks up? If that's not "I'm coming to get you", I don't know what is.

[Fan]

i agree with winter wind with the way the great lord saruon loeses his ring without his ability to recover with hundreds of thousands of minions iis really disapointing and he cant even get it from a child sized 70yearold hobbit




p.s. tell me what you think of my new signature

[LordVader]

((Lose the bunny, get dancing Kirby ftw. <('-'<) (>'-')> <('-'<) (>'-')> <('-'<) (>'-')> ))

[DomaDoma]

@Epic magic: There's epic magic in LoTR. Fellowship of the Ring. Saruman crashed a mountain on them by sending lightning bolts to strike the peak. He was miles away from the Misty Mountains.


That's just the movies. Apparently they thought Caradhras being a totally unrelated malevolent being was too confusing. (Same goes for Saruman being at odds with Sauron - that and Faramir are my two real beefs with the movies.)

[bugsysservant]

Well, just a few things to think about-
1. Sauron isn't that great a fighter. He was beaten by Isildor, true, but thousands of years before that, he got his ass handed to him by Huan, a dog. A magical dog the size of a small horse, essentially the Chuck Norris of dogs, but a dog nonetheless.
2. Sauron doesn't have that great will power. He was beaten in a match by Aragorn over the Palantir. Aragorn was the true king of Gondor, which probably helped, but he still was just a human.
3. Sauron was the Lieutenant of Morgoth, a being who was far more powerful, and yet was still seriously wounded by Fingolfin, and later Thorondor, a great eagle. Both were powerful, perhaps some of the greatest beings bellow the Maiar, but both were far more effective than they would have been if Sauron was as resistant as many here believe.
4. Sauron was the lieutenant of Morgoth, who had the power to reshape the earth on vast scales, it said in the beginning of the Silmarillion that he was able to tear down mountains and empty out seas. While Sauron probably couldn't have done this, he still had a very large amount of power.
5. Sauron was held in greater esteem than Ancalagon the Black, a dragon so vast that his fall leveled Thangorodrim, perhaps the mightiest mountain on Middle Earth.
6. Even Sauron's master Morgoth wasn't immune to mortal magic, as he was shown to be very susceptible to the magic of Luthien (although the fact that angrist broke after cutting a single silmaril shows that there was probably an aspect of prophecy/fate on Beren and Luthien's side)

Thus, while I would still give the battle to Sauron, it would probably be closer than many people think.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Also, for the "personal" aspect, what about Sauron in both Denethor's palantir and the one Pippin picks up? If that's not "I'm coming to get you", I don't know what is.
But they really weren't personal beefs. Sauron couldn't have cared less about Pippin and Denethor. They just happened to be the ones to use the palantirs. I don't think he would have really gone out of his way to take out either of them specifically except as a special precaution had they ended their respective associations with their palantirs.

On the other side of the coin, Voldemort became obsessed with Harry. He took the kid's survival as a personal attack on his natural superiority over all other wizards. Even without lingering doubts about the prophecy, he'd have done everything in his power to kill Harry just to settle that score.

No, the conflict with Voldemort was much more personal in nature than the conflict with Sauron.

[Winterwind]

@bugsysservant: All of these seem to indicate primarily that, given the proper combination of skill, fate and heroism (and, unfortunately, heritage, but that's the one stain about Tolkien's fiction) mortals can attain similar power levels as angelic beings (also, Huan and Thorondor are basically angelic beings themselves, being direct servants of Valar, and Fingolfin and Luthien are immortal Noldor, so hardly qualify as mortals).
Now the question is whether Voldemort qualifies for that sort of power. And that's entirely subjective again; I would argue, he does not. Heroism is completely out, he is skilled, but whether he is skilled on the same level as Tolkien elven kings is debatable at best, and he isn't of divine or elven heritage either.

[Eita]

That's just the movies. Apparently they thought Caradhras being a totally unrelated malevolent being was too confusing. (Same goes for Saruman being at odds with Sauron - that and Faramir are my two real beefs with the movies.)

Ah. It's been awhile since I read the books. Anyways,the fact that someone did manage to crash a freaking mountain with lightning bolts (or did he do something different? Like I said, it's been awhile) says much about the sheer power of LoTR magic when used to it's highest potential.

[Winterwind]

Ah. It's been awhile since I read the books. Anyways,the fact that someone did manage to crash a freaking mountain with lightning bolts (or did he do something different? Like I said, it's been awhile) says much about the sheer power of LoTR magic when used to it's highest potential.Well, in that case, the being is the mountain, and I don't recall lightning being involved.

Or are you thinking about the battle at Helm's Deep, where lightning strikes repeatedly during the battle (but only in the background, without any importance; the wall is breached by a detonation which might have been caused by Saruman's magic, or by something like gunpowder; it's not entirely clear from the text).

[bugsysservant]

Well, in that case, the being is the mountain, and I don't recall lightning being involved.

Or are you thinking about the battle at Helm's Deep, where lightning strikes repeatedly during the battle (but only in the background, without any importance; the wall is breached by a detonation which might have been caused by Saruman's magic, or by something like gunpowder; it's not entirely clear from the text).

Actually, I believe the term was "sorcerous fire," pretty unambiguous as far as I am concerned. Although Saruman did have a large technological advantage, I really don't see him being that far ahead of the armies of Rohan that they would have no idea what he was doing or he would have just blown up the Ents.

Also, I had thought that Caradhras being described as a malevolent being was just personification of a dangerous mountain.

[Winterwind]

Actually, I believe the term was "sorcerous fire," pretty unambiguous as far as I am concerned. Although Saruman did have a large technological advantage, I really don't see him being that far ahead of the armies of Rohan that they would have no idea what he was doing or he would have just blown up the Ents.And shortly after that something like "The orcs have brought the fires of Orthanc!", implying that this "sorcerous fire" can be transported and used by orcs. Given that unknown stuff that detonates in a huge blast would seem pretty much sorcerous to people who have never seen or heard of such things, I think it could easily be interpreted as some sort of explosives (just as the movie has).
It could be interpreted like magic as well, due to the line you cited. At least to me it seems like it could go either way.


Also, I had thought that Caradhras being described as a malevolent being was just personification of a dangerous mountain.A valid interpretation. Again, both could be meant. The characters seem to take the hardness, weather, snow and the avalanche pretty personally; then again, they could do so just to vent their frustration and hatred for the way they are forced to go.

[bugsysservant]

And shortly after that something like "The orcs have brought the fires of Orthanc!", implying that this "sorcerous fire" can be transported and used by orcs. Given that unknown stuff that detonates in a huge blast would seem pretty much sorcerous to people who have never seen or heard of such things, I think it could easily be interpreted as some sort of explosives (just as the movie has).
It could be interpreted like magic as well, due to the line you cited. At least to me it seems like it could go either way.

Good point. I had always assumed Tolkien meant that figuratively, in that the magic of Saruman came with the orc army, not that they brought it per se. But yours would make more sense :smallredface:

[Winterwind]

Good point. I had always assumed Tolkien meant that figuratively, in that the magic of Saruman came with the orc army, not that they brought it per se. But yours would make more sense :smallredface:I should add that I always thought it meant Saruman using magic, too, and I still prefer that interpretation, for it seems more fitting into the magical world that is Middle Earth than gunpowder. But the wording is ambiguous at best, and at worst I think one could even make a stronger point for it being explosives. The movie seems to think so as well - remember that one orc Aragorn points to and shouts that Legolas shall kill this one instantly (and who nevertheless manages to detonate the explosives despite being shot repeatedly first)?

[Rogue 7]

One-on-one, assuming that Sauron was in his pre-fellowship form, I think it would be fairly even. Sauron isn't quite as fast as old voldy, who can dodge and dart and control the terrain better. However, the thing is, it's not one-on-one. It's...three hundred...against ten thousand... Actually more, but I felt like working in a quote there. No matter how good the wizards are, they'll either get stabbed, chopped, or arrow'd by the sheer number of orcs, trolls, and evil men.

[Arameus]

Question: Is Voldemort shorter than 5'?

If yes, then Sauron loses.

If no, then Sauron vaporizes his opponent.

I'm still putting my money on the fact that anyone with a decent firearm can take on any wizard from HP, especially considering that the text hints that nearly all wizards are completely unfamiliar with the concept of guns.

[Rockphed]

Perhaps a better comparison would be Voldemorte against Saruman. After all, Saruman is more mortal than Sauron and Sauron is some sort of Quasi Deified Creature of Death. If even Saruman is considered too powerful for Voldemorte, we could always throw Baldie up against a Balrog. That would be pretty fun.

V: Die vile creature!
Balrog: Whip-crash!

[DomaDoma]

Voldemort beats Saruman in a duel; Saruman beats Voldemort in the recruiting department.

[Eita]

*points at Saruman's and Gandalf's duel*

Or was that only in the movie as well?

[Rowanomicon]

No contest. No room for argument even. I mean you can say Voldemort would win, but you'd be wrong.

I can agree that they're form two totally different world. As someone said early in this thread it's like comparing apple and armageddon.

However, if you they were to fight (either one on one or with all their minions) Voldemort would be no match for the Witch King or for Sarumon, let alone Sauron.
I actually laughed when I read the title of this thread. Heck, I'd still have my money on a Balrog or one of The Nine (besides the Witch King) over Voldemort.

That's not to say that Voldemort a "bad villain" or to insult the Harry Potter books, universe, or fans. I must admit, however, that I do prefer Tolkien's writing to Rowling's.

Also Voldemort would never be able to defeat Sauron by destroying the ring because if he ever came into possession of thing he would become enamored with it and it's power even faster than Isildor or Smeagul and would try to keep it for his own (which never works out).

Maybe if Voldemort was smarter he'd stand a chance (against Sauron's henchmen).

[Eita]

You can only say Avada Kedavra so many times before you wish you were a D&D mage with Protection from Arrows.

[dehro]

The only way I see how Voldemort could win this contest would be if he got hold of the One Ring. He surely would be corrupted by it instantly, but on the other hand, there's not much to be corrupted about him anyway.


this doesn't really make sense... the corruption does not only lie in ..aha...corrupting the character, aims and willpower of the wearer..it also brings, ultimately, the wearer into servitude of the ring, and of Sauron...so Voldemort getting hold of the ring would only be a slower victory for Sauron..because Voldemort could never even think of destroying it.
anyway..The comparison does not make sense..
on one side we have a god (demigod?) who has at his service balrogs, nazguls, dragons, orcs, corsairs etc etc, and has considerable personal power other than being incarnated into a freaking giant with magic an phisical powers far beyond comprehension (and if we do consider Sauron to be "not incarnated" as seen in the LOTR, this makes him only harder to kill, certainly unkillable with an avada kedavra or anything close)
also he has experience and powers that date back to millennia, and is, de facto, not human..being alive or death does not really apply here...he either is or is destroyed into oblivion...life has nothing to do with it..and I doubt voldemort could even begin to understand this.

on the other hand we have a whiny bastard who has never been able to cope with the misery of his life and with the faults of his character, has a awfull temper and is not really up to date on what his motivations and goals are...he follows a desire for global domination, then he drifts of on a personal vengeance, and has never understood what it actually was all about...(Sauron on the other hand might have lost, but this is mainly because of a bad strategy..not because he didn't have a clue like Voldemort)
and I'm trying not to laugh about his minions..
a bunch of selfish buffoons with no real purpose and power, strong only as long as their opponents refrain from using the forbidden curses (which I doubt Sauron would have a problem with)..
races of demihuman and magical creatures that are really not that special, when compared to balrogs and Nazguls (I'd like to see a dementor coming up against the less powerfull of the Nazguls..they draw on fear and despair, don't they?...)

no, I don't think Voldemort stands even a slight chance to survive the first battle, let alone a full blown confrontation.

[Winterwind]

this doesn't really make sense... the corruption does not only lie in ..aha...corrupting the character, aims and willpower of the wearer..it also brings, ultimately, the wearer into servitude of the ring, and of Sauron...so Voldemort getting hold of the ring would only be a slower victory for Sauron..because Voldemort could never even think of destroying it.
anyway..The comparison does not make sense..Gandalf, Galadriel and Saruman all imply in the books they would be able to use the power the One Ring could grant them to overthrow Sauron and take his place. Saruman is actually trying to accomplish exactly that - somebody complained before that in the movies Saruman is at the odds with Sauron, but that's actually following the books: While Saruman was working for Sauron, he nevertheless tried to betray him by getting the Ring for himself (that's also the background for Sauron's orcs' conflict with the Uruk-Hai when they carry Merry and Pippin towards Isengard). That's also what Sauron fears, the very reason why Frodo's quest is successful: Sauron assumes somebody with enough power to wield the Ring will use it to help Gondor, which is why he strips Mordor of his troops for this decisive battle.
It is stated throughout the LotR books that it is possible to defeat Sauron using the One Ring, but that one would become like Sauron in the process of doing so. It's the greatest temptation the most powerful beings of Middle Earth face when they are confronted with the Ring.


on one side we have a god (demigod?) who has at his service balrogs, nazguls, dragons, orcs, corsairs etc etc, and has considerable personal power other than being incarnated into a freaking giant with magic an phisical powers far beyond comprehension (and if we do consider Sauron to be "not incarnated" as seen in the LOTR, this makes him only harder to kill, certainly unkillable with an avada kedavra or anything close)
also he has experience and powers that date back to millennia, and is, de facto, not human..being alive or death does not really apply here...he either is or is destroyed into oblivion...life has nothing to do with it..and I doubt voldemort could even begin to understand this.Balrogs and dragons? Where did you get that from? Balrogs would have little reason to obey him, seeing as they are both Maiar (and if memory serves, actually Maiar who originally pledged allegiance to the same Vala, namely Aule). And I do not recall Sauron commanding any dragons either (the beasts the Nazgul ride upon later are some primordial abominations, but not dragons).

Sauron is probably something like a high ranking angel; it is pretty much obvious that Iluvatar/Eru is God (there actually is a short story written by Tolkien about a Numenorian who falls into a magical slumber and awakens centuries later in Great Britain to become Merlin, where it is stated that by this time Eru had come personally to this world in the body of a human, to die for our sins), the Valar might hence correspond to archangels (would fit in with Melkor's fall, too), making the Maiar angelic beings.


on the other hand we have a whiny bastard who has never been able to cope with the misery of his life and with the faults of his character, has a awfull temper and is not really up to date on what his motivations and goals are...he follows a desire for global domination, then he drifts of on a personal vengeance, and has never understood what it actually was all about...(Sauron on the other hand might have lost, but this is mainly because of a bad strategy..not because he didn't have a clue like Voldemort)
and I'm trying not to laugh about his minions..
a bunch of selfish buffoons with no real purpose and power, strong only as long as their opponents refrain from using the forbidden curses (which I doubt Sauron would have a problem with)..
races of demihuman and magical creatures that are really not that special, when compared to balrogs and Nazguls (I'd like to see a dementor coming up against the less powerfull of the Nazguls..they draw on fear and despair, don't they?...)

no, I don't think Voldemort stands even a slight chance to survive the first battle, let alone a full blown confrontation.While I actually like the Harry Potter series and wouldn't scathe it as you do, I nevertheless agree with your final assessment.

[LordVader]

Balrogs were under the control of Sauron's master; when he was defeated, they fled.

And Sauron is just incredibly more...grand then Voldemort. You can't really compare them, they're leagues apart. Maybe not in power, but rather in deeds

[Winterwind]

Balrogs were under the control of Sauron's master; when he was defeated, they fled.

And Sauron is just incredibly more...grand then Voldemort. You can't really compare them, they're leagues apart. Maybe not in power, but rather in deedsNow this, I think, is undeniably true. :smallcool:

[dehro]

Gandalf, Galadriel and Saruman all imply in the books they would be able to use the power the One Ring could grant them to overthrow Sauron and take his place. spoilerized to keep it short...well..ok, shorter!Saruman is actually trying to accomplish exactly that - somebody complained before that in the movies Saruman is at the odds with Sauron, but that's actually following the books: While Saruman was working for Sauron, he nevertheless tried to betray him by getting the Ring for himself (that's also the background for Sauron's orcs' conflict with the Uruk-Hai when they carry Merry and Pippin towards Isengard). That's also what Sauron fears, the very reason why Frodo's quest is successful: Sauron assumes somebody with enough power to wield the Ring will use it to help Gondor, which is why he strips Mordor of his troops for this decisive battle.
It is stated throughout the LotR books that it is possible to defeat Sauron using the One Ring, but that one would become like Sauron in the process of doing so. It's the greatest temptation the most powerful beings of Middle Earth face when they are confronted ...with the Ring.
It is also stated that the ring is as much part of Sauron as he is a part of the ring, and since the ring would end up dominating the ever so powerful gandalf or galadriel, Sauron would still win, in the end.
as for saruman, his allegiance with Sauron wasn't all that strong even at it's best moments.
then again, the point is moot, since we are not talking about the middle earth heroes confronting Sauron, opposing his dark arts with the virtues and strenght of character of a true champion, but about Voldemort..
And I very much doubt that voldemort would be able to dominate Sauron, or the ring, enough to destroy the one or the other. Even if he got to use the ring to destroy Sauron, I doubt very much he could ever do so...if nothing else, just because the ring has had it always easier with do-no-gooders, and in that aspect, voldemort definitely qualifies.
the ring gains control by allowing the bad traits of people to take over the virtues and good qualities, and fueling the former in ways that are useful for the ring and for Sauron...how long would it take for it to control Voldemort?


Balrogs and dragons? Where did you get that from? Balrogs would have little reason to obey him, seeing as they are both Maiar (and if memory serves, actually Maiar who originally pledged allegiance to the same Vala, namely Aule). And I do not recall Sauron commanding any dragons either (the beasts the Nazgul ride upon later are some primordial abominations, but not dragons).
I wasn't referring to the beast used as mounts by the Nazgul but to the real dragons, scatha, glaurung and company... since they where created by Morgoth, I suppose that Sauron would have had some under his control, had any survived untill the last wars of the 3rd era..no?? as for the balrog, they should obey Morgoth, and thus Sauron, for the same reason Gandalf obeys the other Valar; lesser "bad maiar" following the big bad one, and lesser maiar on the other side taking orders from the valar.


While I actually like the Harry Potter series and wouldn't scathe it as you do, I nevertheless agree with your final assessment.

never said I don't like them, I do or else wouldn't have read the whole series :smallwink: I was merely depicting a scathin image of voldemort..serves him right, for being such a wanker...:smallbiggrin:


finally..allow me to add a little twist to this confrontation, absurd as it is..
does Sauron at his peak, mean that we are talking about him with all his powers, be they still part of him or in the ring on his finger or a Sauron somehow diminished by the absence of the ring?
the first option sounds like overkill...like using a rhino to trample an ant...

[Winterwind]

It is also stated that the ring is as much part of Sauron as he is a part of the ring, and since the ring would end up dominating the ever so powerful gandalf or galadriel, Sauron would still win, in the end.Well... yes, sort of. :smallwink:
But technically, he'd die in the process.


as for saruman, his allegiance with Sauron wasn't all that strong even at it's best moments.Definitely. Allegiances forged on the premise of backstabbing the other as soon as possible tend to be rather weak generally. :smallbiggrin:


then again, the point is moot, since we are not talking about the middle earth heroes confronting Sauron, opposing his dark arts with the virtues and strenght of character of a true champion, but about Voldemort..
And I very much doubt that voldemort would be able to dominate Sauron, or the ring, enough to destroy the one or the other. Even if he got to use the ring to destroy Sauron, I doubt very much he could ever do so...if nothing else, just because the ring has had it always easier with do-no-gooders, and in that aspect, voldemort definitely qualifies.
the ring gains control by allowing the bad traits of people to take over the virtues and good qualities, and fueling the former in ways that are useful for the ring and for Sauron...how long would it take for it to control Voldemort?To corrupt him, none at all. The question is, would this make him to Sauron's slave, or would it make him to Sauron's mirror image?
And that's the point where gets completely subjective.


I wasn't referring to the beast used as mounts by the Nazgul but to the real dragons, scatha, glaurung and company... since they where created by Morgoth, I suppose that Sauron would have had some under his control, had any survived untill the last wars of the 3rd era..no??I might be mistaken, and I'm not sure where to find that information right now, but I think Smaug was the last big one.


as for the balrog, they should obey Morgoth, and thus Sauron, for the same reason Gandalf obeys the other Valar; lesser "bad maiar" following the big bad one, and lesser maiar on the other side taking orders from the valar.Sauron may have been Morgoth's lieutenant, but the Balrogs were his mightiest servants as well. Whether they would accept orders from him is debatable; he is not Morgoth, after all. Then again, it's a moot point either way, since as LordVader said they fled after Morgoth's defeat.


never said I don't like them, I do or else wouldn't have read the whole series :smallwink: I was merely depicting a scathin image of voldemort..serves him right, for being such a wanker...:smallbiggrin: Ah, I see. :smallbiggrin:


finally..allow me to add a little twist to this confrontation, absurd as it is..
does Sauron at his peak, mean that we are talking about him with all his powers, be they still part of him or in the ring on his finger or a Sauron somehow diminished by the absence of the ring?
the first option sounds like overkill...like using a rhino to trample an ant...:smalleek:
I actually think that's a pretty good comparison. :smallbiggrin:

[SmartAlec]

Actually, I believe the term was "sorcerous fire," pretty unambiguous as far as I am concerned. Although Saruman did have a large technological advantage, I really don't see him being that far ahead of the armies of Rohan that they would have no idea what he was doing or he would have just blown up the Ents.

It's easy to imagine the Wizards having some knowledge that everyone else doesn't. I always imagined Saruman's 'sorcerous fire' was rooted in the same kind of magical science as Gandalf's fireworks, only turned to a more military application.

[LordVader]

Also, as we can see when Sauron sacrificied himself to bring down the realm of Numenor, he is not adverse to dying to further his cause as long as the Ring is safely in the hands of his lieutenants, namely the Witch-King. So he doesn't really have to fear death; neither does Voldemort, although his Horcruxes are admittedly more vulnerable than the Ring.

[factotum]

Also, as we can see when Sauron sacrificied himself to bring down the realm of Numenor, he is not adverse to dying to further his cause as long as the Ring is safely in the hands of his lieutenants

Sauron did nothing of the kind. He sent the Numenoreans against the Blessed Lands with every expectation that the Valar and their allies would wipe the floor with them without any assistance, and if a few of them got killed in the process, so much the better! He was in no way expecting Iluvatar to step in, and the utter destruction of Numenor was as much a surprise to him as anyone else--I'm sure he could have easily escaped from Numenor had he known of its imminent destruction.

Also, dying is not a cost-free exercise for Sauron. He wasn't able to appear in fair form anymore after the destruction of Numenor, and after Isildur cut the Ring from his hand he only appeared again as a malevolent red Eye.

[Dean Fellithor]

as long as they only met once: at the end, a 1st level Party could defeat Voldemort. the only thing that keeps Voldemort alive is his Horcruxes. Honestly, Voldy aint got much up his arsernal.

[Greebo]

It's easy to imagine the Wizards having some knowledge that everyone else doesn't. I always imagined Saruman's 'sorcerous fire' was rooted in the same kind of magical science as Gandalf's fireworks, only turned to a more military application.
To a degree, probably, but Gandalf in addition to his own abilities had the Ring of Fire - who's name eludes me. This ring gave him significant mastery over fire and would probably explain why he was able to stand up to the Balrog. My understanding is that Baulrog are corrupted Maia but that the Wizards, or Istari, are a lower grade supernatural being even than the Maia, so I think under normal circumstances, NONE of the wizards, not even Saruman, would have been able to stand up to a Balrog of Morgoth.

[Tamburlaine]

Sauron, Sauron, Sauron. Heck, the Nine could take on Voldemort and all the death eaters easily, and the Witch King could destroy Voldemort one on one:

V: Avada Kedavra!
WK: No man can kill me.
V: Er...I'm kind of half snake?
WK: Nice try *Mace* *Stab* *Mace again for good measure*

I really dont see why anyone thought this was a contest in the first place.

Also, I am in awe of all the LotR knowledge in this thread. Wow!

[Winterwind]

To a degree, probably, but Gandalf in addition to his own abilities had the Ring of Fire - who's name eludes me. This ring gave him significant mastery over fire and would probably explain why he was able to stand up to the Balrog. My understanding is that Baulrog are corrupted Maia but that the Wizards, or Istari, are a lower grade supernatural being even than the Maia, so I think under normal circumstances, NONE of the wizards, not even Saruman, would have been able to stand up to a Balrog of Morgoth.The Istari were normal Maia, but lost a lot of their power by taking mortal form. And the Balrogs were very powerful Maia to begin with. So you're probably right.

[Greebo]

The Istari were normal Maia, but lost a lot of their power by taking mortal form. And the Balrogs were very powerful Maia to begin with. So you're probably right.
Ah yes, you're right about the origins. My bad.

[WalkingTarget]

Ok, I feel like finally stepping in here alongside Greebo and Winterwind.

My readings into Tolkien have left me with the impression that magic in his universe is a zero-sum game and is almost entirely dependent on creating objects which then have some magical effect. A maia or vala who wishes to create something in the world becomes more closely tied to the world.

In Sauron's case, in order to get the effect he wanted (i.e. the ability to dominate the other ring-bearers) he had to invest a lot of his own "energy" into the ring he made. The technique for making the rings in the first place was his idea (taught to Celebrimbor whilst in disguise), but knowing how they worked wasn't enough in and of itself. The "rule them all" trick just couldn't work without his sacrifice. The way I've always read it, he wasn't defeated when Isildur cut off the ring. Elendil and Gilgalad brought him down, dieing in the process, and Isildur cut the ring from the "body". As had been stated before by others, this wasn't the first time that Sauron had lost a physical body nor the last (Gollum mentioned 4 fingers on the black hand, which at least implies that he physically saw Sauron while he was in Barad-dur). Don't be suckered into the movies' portrayal of a giant flaming eye. Sure it looks cool, but that depiction, other than in visions of other characters, isn't present in the books. Gandalf died too at one point, so comic book death isn't only a team evil power.

See also - Fëanor couldn't recreate the Silmarilli since part of his essence went into their making, every time Morgoth came up with some new trick he became less all-powerful (he started off as the greatest of the Valar who were stated to be able to take on physical form and put it off like a garment, but by the time he'd come up with orcs, trolls, and dragons he was locked into his evil-overlord form with burned hands and a limp).

Sure, there are a fair number of magic swords around, but as we don't know the smiths, we don't know how much that may have taken out of them. Saruman's loss of his staff represented great loss of power. Symbolic, possibly, but I've come to the conclusion that it might be similar to Sauron's connection to the ring as well. Gandalf can make fire do all sorts of fun stuff, but he needs something to work it on in the first place (logs, pinecones, etc), and it's never just normal fire (green or other fancy colors) and it always tires him.

As for fireworks and Saruman's sorcerous fire, I've always been of the opinion that it's mostly just gunpowder in a world that's otherwise without knowledge of it. I'd admit that some of the special effects on the fireworks are probably helped out by Narya, but that's a special case and largely cosmetic. That's an opinion of course, and I have no other basis for it in the text other than as a result of my other points given above.

On the original topic, I have to admit a lack of knowledge on Voldemort since I'm only through the second book so far. Given what I know about Tolkien and what I've seen thus far in Rowling I'd go with Sauron. I don't think Voldemort would think of destroying the ring (same reason that it didn't occur to Sauron that somebody would try). Since Sauron endures as long as the ring does, he'd never be definitively defeated. He'd just continue to bide his time and he'd eventually bring V down.

[Lord of the Helms]

To a degree, probably, but Gandalf in addition to his own abilities had the Ring of Fire - who's name eludes me. This ring gave him significant mastery over fire and would probably explain why he was able to stand up to the Balrog. My understanding is that Baulrog are corrupted Maia but that the Wizards, or Istari, are a lower grade supernatural being even than the Maia, so I think under normal circumstances, NONE of the wizards, not even Saruman, would have been able to stand up to a Balrog of Morgoth.

I don't quite think the Balrogs are that overwhlmingly strong. While among the more powerful Maiar, it is not impossible even for non-Ainu to defeat them; The Noldor of Gondolin supposedly slew dozens upon dozens (possibly hundreds) through sheer righteous fury at their last stand. And I would almost certainly rate Gandalf and Saruman among the medium or higher Maiar; they were after all the Valar's caretakers for Middle-Earth in the Third Age.

I could definitely see any remaining Balrogs working for Sauron. I'm fair sure he was clearly stated to be Morgoth's second-in-command and most powerful servant, above even the highest Balrog Gothmog; and he made a pretty good point of being Morgoth's faithful lieutenant even after his master's final fall from grace and imprisonment beyond the very gates of reality.

Finally, one should note that power lines between Ainur in Arda and Iluvatar's children were always rather blurry; Feanor was supposed to be one third as strong as Morgoth, the most powerful and second strongest being on all of Arda, and was only slain through sheer overwhelming force of a horde of Balrogs; and Sauron himself was physically defeated by Elendil and Gil-Galad together (curse the movie for completely discarding this fight).

[Mephisto]

On the other hand, a non-evil wizard from the Harry Potter universe would have shortened the Lord of the Rings greatly. Just apparate to the Crack of Doom, et voilà! :smallbiggrin:

One does not simply Apparate into Mordor.

[Ditto]

I love how someone on the first page said "Sauron is a Maia, on the level of Gandalf..." Don't we all remember the endless threads of "Gandalf is a level 3 wizard"? :smallamused: The coolest things he ever did were 1) Dimension Door in The Hobbit when his friends got attacked by goblins, and 2) Drive off the Nazgul in RotK with his staff of shiny light. This was not magic light filled with goodness, it was just a really bright light. The Nazgul said, "WTF? Is someone actually *charging* us? Guys, regroup, we have to think about this!" Then they realized it was just a flashlight, and came back. If Sauron has shiny light, woe to his enemies!

Sauron can see all, but touch little. In physical form, he's a badass, epic-level... Fighter. An epic-level Fighter is still a Fighter, though.

But, focusing: Yes, Sauron has massive numerical advantages. Voldemort & co. have a huge tactical advantage in both mobility and firepower. Apparating & brooms (Sauron only has a handful of flying units); Avada Kedavra isn't the most useful thing against an entire army, but you can kill with other things. Huge explosions with a flick of the wrist, animating some trees to dance on orcs' heads (and we know that works pretty well already), Imperius'ing the largest units (who usually have the lowest will saves... trolls and oliphaunts, heh); and that's just a few.

HP magic is big, and 'splody, and clever, and generally limitless. LOTR magic is concentrated in artefacts and barely anywhere else. A few determined wizards could wreck up a modern army; a medieval one is hardly a different challenge, especially when they *just* discovered gunpowder.

[warty goblin]

HP magic is big, and 'splody, and clever, and generally limitless. LOTR magic is concentrated in artefacts and barely anywhere else. A few determined wizards could wreck up a modern army; a medieval one is hardly a different challenge, especially when they *just* discovered gunpowder.

Except for all of those things that can't be killed by magic- like the Witch-King or the Olag-Hai which seem to be invulerable to all but a few types of physical weapon. Admittedly we never see what exactly magic does to them, but it would seem reasonable to give them serious magic resistance at the minimum.

Also don't forget that HP wizards are 100% dependant on their wands, they basically can't do jack without them. Personally if I was engaged in combat with something like an Olag-Hai I'd want my best weapon to be more than a stick of wood with a tendancy to break. We know that a wizard like Gandalf can shatter staffs, why not wands? If Gandalf can do it, its a sure bet that Sauron could

I'd give this one to Sauron hands down, he just kinda oozes power- his very thoughts can shatter minds and bend wills over vast distances, and Voldermort has never struck me as being that strong in the resisting dark urges department. I see no reason why Sauron wouldn't simply be able to make him yet another serveant without much difficulty, all that would be required is to slip him one of the dwarf rings and Voldermort's toast

edit- about imperiousing the trolls, at least for Olag-Hai they will actually have a pretty darn unbeatable will save, since they're minds are directly controlled by Sauron, so unless you think that Voldermort's got more willpower than Sauron, that's just not gonna work.
Wizard "Imperio"
Olag-Hai *Hammer*
Wizard "Slurtch"

[Nerd-o-rama]

One does not simply Apparate into Mordor.
Quoted for Win.

[Greebo]

I don't quite think the Balrogs are that overwhlmingly strong. While among the more powerful Maiar, it is not impossible even for non-Ainu to defeat them; The Noldor of Gondolin supposedly slew dozens upon dozens (possibly hundreds) through sheer righteous fury at their last stand. And I would almost certainly rate Gandalf and Saruman among the medium or higher Maiar; they were after all the Valar's caretakers for Middle-Earth in the Third Age.

But how many thousands of Noldor died while slaying a few hundred Balrogs?

[Serenity]

One does not simply Apparate into Mordor.

Yes you do! You totally do! Well, if you've got Ninja-Wizards, at any rate. So just grab the headmaster from whatever school teaches witchcraft and wizardry in Japan, and there you go!

[factotum]

But how many thousands of Noldor died while slaying a few hundred Balrogs?

I don't think it matters. The Noldor who arrived back in Middle-earth were described as being fresh from the Blessed Land with the light of the Two Trees still in their eyes, and while they presumably diminished over time, it's notable that Galadriel is still seen as something pretty special some four thousand years later. The Noldor of Gondolin were thus considerably greater than the elves who were around during the latter part of the Third Age, which is when everyone seems to be placing this battle. Note that Legolas pretty much soiled his underwear when the Balrog first appeared, and Gandalf made it pretty clear that the Balrog was a foe beyond the rest of the Fellowship put together.

[Indon]

Regarding magic: In the LotR universe, evil magic is more potent, in terms of raw power, than good magic is. Good magic is more focused on inspiring people to be heroically awesome.

[Lord of the Helms]

But how many thousands of Noldor died while slaying a few hundred Balrogs?

Actually, it was five or so Balrogs who fell for every Noldor from the elite troop that made their suicide sortie/last stand (on the back of assaulting Dragons, no less). I'm only vague on the numbers of fallen Balrogs because I don't know how large the Noldor troop was. Tons of Balrogs were downed that day; Tuor took three out himself, I believe, and he was vanilla human. Come to think of it, the battle was won by the Dragons and treachery, not the Balrogs.

[Winterwind]

Which again, I think, rather proves how powerful some of Iluvatar's Children can get, rather than how "weak" Balrogs are. So it doesn't really affect Sauron's superiority as compared to normal mortals.

[Ditto]

100% dependent on wands = problem? They're not going to *hit* anything with them... :smallconfused: Everyone needs a weapon to be effective in combat. Except that Voldemort can still cast powerful magic without a wand. So if you *somehow* get close enough to break his flimsy stick... and he'll go make a new one.

What's an Olag-Hai? Is that Uruk-Hai, the uber-orcs? If so, they aren't the biggest and smashiest things out there. Trolls don't have any will save. I don't know anything about the high-ups' magic immunities (please, tell me more...), but they are only a handful of soldiers - and are still just soldiers. Superspecialawesome soldiers, but they're flying guys with poisoned swords. In order to stop a wizard, you still need to hit him. Melee doesn't work against wizards.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/43/87366880_1b05bf99e2.jpg
That's what brooms are for. Doesn't anyone else watch How It Should Have Ended (www.howitshouldhaveended.com)? I believe this solution has been mentioned before. :smallbiggrin:

[WalkingTarget]

What's an Olag-Hai? Is that Uruk-Hai, the uber-orcs? If so, they aren't the biggest and smashiest things out there. Trolls don't have any will save. I don't know anything about the high-ups' magic immunities (please, tell me more...), but they are only a handful of soldiers - and are still just soldiers. Superspecialawesome soldiers, but they're flying guys with poisoned swords. In order to stop a wizard, you still need to hit him. Melee doesn't work against wizards.


From Wikipedia:

Olog-hai were "strong, agile, fierce, and cunning" trolls created by Sauron, not unlike the Uruk-hai, and were able to withstand sunlight while under the sway of Sauron's will. They seldom spoke and were said to know no language other than the Black Speech, in which Olog-hai means "troll-folk" (singular Olog "troll"). Because of their cunning, they were thought by some to be giant Orcs, rather than trolls. They appeared towards the end of the Third Age and could be found near Dol Guldur and in the mountains around Mordor. In the Battle of the Morannon, there appear "hill-trolls" of Gorgoroth which are implied to be Olog-hai in one of the Appendices to The Lord of the Rings (the term is not used within the story proper). These were described as being taller and wider than men, and their hide or armour was described as a mesh of horny scales. They had black blood. Peregrin Took slew one of these trolls at the Battle of the Morannon and after the destruction of the One Ring and the fall of Sauron the surviving trolls scattered as if mindless.

Tolkien != D&D. Talking about will saves in this context doesn't really fit.

As far as wizards vs. melee, I'll quote an old Jhereg saying. "No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style."

Also, Rocking into Mordor... Awesome.

[Serenity]

Hmm, it occurs to me suddenly that anyone talking about being immune to magic in Tolkien means they're immune to Tolkienian magic. For all we know, if a HP Wizard was dropped into Middle Earth, no one would have a defense against his magic.

Hey, the Judge was immune to 'any weapon forged', but it turned out that only meant the swords and such that were around when he first showed up. Blowing him up good with a rocket launcher still worked.

Just playing the devil's advocate here.

[Winterwind]

That's what I meant. We have no way to know how the different worlds translate into each other. We can only assume that, since Sauron is a mighty fallen angel, he should be immune to magic, any kind of magic. A Voldemort supporter could reply that Voldemort is one of the mightiest wizards who ever lived, and hence should be able to overcome magic-resistance, any magic resistance. It gets completely subjective from there.
We need to make such assumptions, because otherwise we'd have no debate at all, but ultimately it all comes down to saying "But I think X should win, because he's obviously sooooo much better!".

[Ditto]

Olag-hai are nifty, then. :smallsmile: He ought target other big brutes, I suppose. 'Will saves' is being used loosely to imply that the big heavy hitters don't have the most sophisticated minds and wouldn't be shaking off any mind control on their own.

Yes, the magic systems are different. That doesn't mean comparisons can't be made - 'untouchable spell resistance!' and 'uberblastysuperdeathspells!' obviously get old (just like "Protoss can glass a planet! Yeah, the Federation can glass a planet! Yeah? The Protoss can glass your mom! Ooooh!"). If it's completely beyond comparing, we leave it go. That said, 'virtually untouchable' is not the same as 'immune'. That has nothing to do with the (possibly) (completely) different magic systems in play here - except insofar as HP magic is fun and free-floating around all the time, and LOTR magic is extremely limited in its uses.

[Winterwind]

LotR magic is not quite as weak either. Melian, for instance, was able to create a protective ring around an entire forest which kept Morgoth's entire army at bay. Now if that's not powerful, I don't know what is.

[Terumitsu]

I will toss my two bits here. Because of Tolkien, and as such Sauron, We have DnD. Mildly indirectly but his works are the basis for it. And I just love his stuff... Sir John Ronald Ruel Tolken... May you rest in peace..

But yes. As for the wand things.... Those are magical focuses. So it is apparent that magic can be cast by an HP wizard but it would lack the power and/or direction that if they did have a wand. I would say that if it came down to it... Sauron would come out on top. LOTR magic isn't limited. Just subtle. He focused more on enchantments and such. The book is chock full of descriptions of them without naming them. But yes.. The 'killing curse' that Voldy likes has to connect. As shown in the books, it can be stopped by a barrier. Sauron mearly has to look at someone to completely screw over their mind... And there is that corruption thing with the ring too....

But that aside... Different universes have different things... so it really can't mech that well.

[Ditto]

I don't know anything outside the Trilogy and the Hobbit; the Silmarillion and other things y'all are referencing are beyond my ken, and (it sounds like) has magic somewhat more prominently. Definitely fill me in if my points are severely contradicted by that material. Warding a forest is most definitely serious business :smallsmile:

Wands as focuses - is there another magic-user in LOTR who doesn't use a staff or such? All I have off the top of my head is Gandalf and Saruman, and they were pretty dependent on some focus. What sort of magic can Sauron do independent of the Ring and such artefacts? Enchantments and corruption are perfectly good magic, but I don't know examples of that. And again, Voldemort has waaaay more tricks than AK. AK is less than useful against large groups, but you never see large groups in HP. That's why it's the weapon of choice.

[warty goblin]

I don't know anything outside the Trilogy and the Hobbit; the Silmarillion and other things y'all are referencing are beyond my ken, and (it sounds like) has magic somewhat more prominently. Definitely fill me in if my points are severely contradicted by that material. Warding a forest is most definitely serious business :smallsmile:

Wands as focuses - is there another magic-user in LOTR who doesn't use a staff or such? All I have off the top of my head is Gandalf and Saruman, and they were pretty dependent on some focus. What sort of magic can Sauron do independent of the Ring and such artefacts? Enchantments and corruption are perfectly good magic, but I don't know examples of that. And again, Voldemort has waaaay more tricks than AK. AK is less than useful against large groups, but you never see large groups in HP. That's why it's the weapon of choice.

Good point about wizards in LOTR needing focuses as well, although I don't think that they are quite as crippled without them as HP wizards are. Even robbed of his staff, servants and other powers, Saruman is still incrediably persuasive. Gandalf even staffless can lay out the smack with sword to a high degree I'd imagine, and Sauron ringless still has the power to shatter minds, gain the support of many nations and peoples, and nearly conquer the earth. For flashy magic like lightening strikes or something a focus seems to be necessary, but more subtle magic used to influence and control seems to be more inate to the user.

An HP wizard wandless can do pretty much nothing destructive or controlling, which is their primary advantage over LOTR magic.

I still don't see how Voldermort would have a chance despite the magic thing for the following reason. Sauron can bend people to his will without them knowing it, over great distances and do so to remarkably strong-willed people. Only a very few and exceptional people can withstand this, and not for long. The primary way that this seems to occur is acting on people's lust for power. The Ring is an agent of this, but so are Palantir, or simple exposure to the temptation to sieze power. All who are not stronger in will than Sauron who fall to this temptation end up serving him in the end, or in the case of Saruman, simply discarded for later punishment. Voldermort, I think it is safe to say, tends to disire power an inordinate degree, mostly for the purpose of making others suffer. Unless he can actually contend with the Will of Sauron, his mind will be bent to serve and he will become just another servant.

I hazard he cannot cotend with Sauron in a battle of minds for the following reasons:
- Voldermort's broken soul must weaken his ability to behave in a human and good manor, or in other words to withstand Sauron.
- He can be lied to, Several people show this throughout the books and get away with it. I don't think anybody ever lies to Sauron and gets away with it (Saruman tried, but was found out and was only protected by Sauron having more pressing problems and being in Orthanc)
- He is arrogant. So is Sauron, but Voldermort I hazard would not realize he was being controlled and manipulated until far to late for him to do anything about it, simply because he would never think of it as a possibility.
- Voldermort = human with weakened willpower. Sauron = at least a demi-god. Nuff said.

Anyway, that's how I read the battle. It simply wouldn't happen, Sauron would simply bend Voldermort to his will, and do so without significant difficulty due to the weakness of Voldermort's spirit.

[Tor the Fallen]

Voldemort was only terrorizing England, and only one sentient race, wasn't he?

Sauron was a goddamned global phenomena, who's master had been involved in the creation of the universe. I'm pretty sure Voldemort would be destroyed, though Sauron would probably just enslave him.

"Psst, Volde, check this cool ring out!"

[Eita]

Gandalf even staffless can lay out the smack with sword to a high degree I'd imagine

Case in point, his destruction of the Balrog.

Gandalf lost his staff, he was still able to royally own the Balrog with a magic sword. Balrogs are the physical manifestation of shadow and flame. I'm pretty sure you'd need a bit more then just a shiny sword (IE: Heritage or magic).


So if you *somehow* get close enough to break his flimsy stick... and he'll go make a new one.

If one could just magic a new wand into existence, Ollivander's would not exist. You need a magic item to create a wand. Thus, it is assumed that one can't just create a magical item.

[factotum]

Warding a forest is most definitely serious business :smallsmile:


Did you skip the entire section of LOTR that deals with Lothlorien, then? If you want an example of an entire forest which is warded from outside harm (even to the extent of time running differently inside), it's right there!

[Nerd-o-rama]

Voldemort was only terrorizing England, and only one sentient race, wasn't he?

Sauron was a goddamned global phenomena, who's master had been involved in the creation of the universe. I'm pretty sure Voldemort would be destroyed, though Sauron would probably just enslave him.

"Psst, Volde, check this cool ring out!"
I think you've hit on the definitive answer on how this fight would go, here.

Sauron: "Hey, Voldemort. Why fight? If you leave me alone, I'll give you this shiny Artifact of Ultimate Power I just forged."
Voldemort: "Well, I do love Artifacts of Ultimate Power. Will it let me get through Potter's plot armor?"
Sauron: "...sure, why not."
Voldemort: "Score!" *puts on ring* "I feel this sudden compulsion to serve your will for all eternity."
Sauron: "That's normal."

[Winterwind]

Sauron: "That's normal."This line is the funniest thing I have seen today. Thank you. :smallbiggrin:

[warty goblin]

I think you've hit on the definitive answer on how this fight would go, here.

Sauron: "Hey, Voldemort. Why fight? If you leave me alone, I'll give you this shiny Artifact of Ultimate Power I just forged."
Voldemort: "Well, I do love Artifacts of Ultimate Power. Will it let me get through Potter's plot armor?"
Sauron: "...sure, why not."
Voldemort: "Score!" *puts on ring* "I feel this sudden compulsion to serve your will for all eternity."
Sauron: "That's normal."


You are made of win with a touch of awesome for spice.

[Ditto]

Again, I don't know why people think "Wandless wizards are powerless" is a useful point. Jedi without the Force are powerless, too.

Gandalf owns with a sword because he's a Wizard3/*Paladin 17*. :smallamused:

It takes work to create a wand, obviously, but not necessarily the work of a wand to make a wand. I figure it's the same as D&D crafting. You get some components, sit in a room, think about it reaalllly hard, and then boom! 125 xp later, you have boots of elvenkind. Or a wand. ::shrug:: In any event, see point one.

Voldemort was pretty much bothering all the races in England. (The centaurs and goblins and such would be annoyed that you called humans the only sentient creatures. :smalltongue: ) If you're looking at 'number of people bothered', it's a question of scale in terms of available manpower. Voldemort might even get points because he's *much* more efficient in terms of people employed/people terrified-dead.

Sauron can twist people subtly, yes indeed... but he's not corrupting anyone right now; this is war. It's not really about who can convince other people to sign on, it's who's under Sauron's influence right now. In fact, that control can be broken magically and is, in the end, persuasion and not mind control. The Imperius curse it total domination.

Voldemort's fractured soul could conceivably make him *more* corruption-proof, since he is so very unlike other humans now due to his souly deformity. That one can go either way.

Voldemort doesn't make friends. He's in charge. Any deal with a demigod is going to be an uneven relationship in his eyes, methinks. :smallsmile:

[warty goblin]

The difference I see between Sauron and Voldermort in terms of mind control and persuasion is this: the Imperius Curse can dominate a single person, but can be broken by anything with exceptional willpower. Sauron however can corrupt pretty much anybody in far more subtle and elegant ways- such as causing his enemies to dispair, or playing on old rivalries between peoples, or using a people's arrrogance against them. Lust for power causes corruption, and all corruption will in the end come under the sway of Sauron, if not directly, then merely indirectly. Look what Sauron managed to do to Numenor, a land that even Sauron admitted was more powerful then he was. Sauron survived, Numenor did not, end of story. Even if Sauron can't win directly, he's pretty hard to stop indirectly.

[Eita]

Gandalf owns with a sword because he's a Wizard3/*Paladin 17*. :smallamused:

No. Just no. He was using the sword as a secondary magical focus with his staff as his primary. Even when he lost his staff he was able to use the sword to kill the Balrog. A normal blade would've been destroyed if it stabbed a Balrog. An elven blade would at least be singed. Gandalf's was pristine when the battle was said and done, most likely because he used magic through the blade.


It takes work to create a wand, obviously, but not necessarily the work of a wand to make a wand. I figure it's the same as D&D crafting. You get some components, sit in a room, think about it reaalllly hard, and then boom! 125 xp later, you have boots of elvenkind. Or a wand. ::shrug:: In any event, see point one.

Not that easy. Not that easy at all. Wandcrafting is specialty in the HPverse. Why do you think that-
everyone was scared when Voldemort captured Ollivander?
If it weren't that easy, would said event spark said reaction?

Also, if his wand breaks in the middle of a fight, he won't have time to make a new. It presumably takes hours. There's also the matter of getting the components. Phoenix feathers, unicorn horns, and dragonheart strings aren't that easy to get.

[The_Snark]

I think you've hit on the definitive answer on how this fight would go, here.

Sauron: "Hey, Voldemort. Why fight? If you leave me alone, I'll give you this shiny Artifact of Ultimate Power I just forged."
Voldemort: "Well, I do love Artifacts of Ultimate Power. Will it let me get through Potter's plot armor?"
Sauron: "...sure, why not."
Voldemort: "Score!" *puts on ring* "I feel this sudden compulsion to serve your will for all eternity."
Sauron: "That's normal."

This is a hilarious rendition of one of Sauron's favorite tactics. It's how he got the Nazgul, and he managed to mess around with the Dwarves even if it didn't corrupt them.

Also, on the minion level? Sauron wins, unquestionably. So all right, he doesn't have any Balrogs (which might have agreed to serve him, but might have been powerful enough to resist) or Dragons (which would have served him; Gandalf at some point mentions that if Thorin and Co. hadn't set out to get rid of Smaug eighty-odd years earlier, Gondor might well have fallen). Voldemort's wizards could easily rip through orcs, true, and maybe trolls; giants could also rip through orcs and beat up trolls.

Oh, wait. Mumakil. So much for the giant advantage. And then... there's the Nazgul. Who would rip through Voldemort's wizards, and possibly Voldemort himself, like tissue paper.

Why? Let's think about Voldemort and his follower's ambitions and motivations. There's lust for power, which they have in spades, but while that makes you vulnerable to Sauron's corruption, that corruption won't actually enslave you (as Sauron proves). Can't see that being a factor. so we're left with what we know of Voldemort. He went to great lengths to achieve immortality and unkillability, creating not one immortality-granting artifact but seven (and going after more in the course of the books; see Sorcerer/Philosopher's Stone). It's pretty clear that the thing driving hm most is fear (with a dash of racism and shame thrown in). What's the most powerful weapon of the Nazgul?

Oh, yeah. Fear. Paralyzing, sickening dread. Most of Voldemort's minions are not terribly loyal or brave. Consider them gone. Now, let's Voldemort and his fear of death, up against all nine Nazgul (whose power increases depending on how many are there). He's probably not going to break and run, but he's not on top of his game, either. He curses a Nazgul...

...and his wand breaks. If he's lucky, he retains use of his arm and his voice. Weapons that directly strike the Nazgul break, successful or no. Merry and Eowyn both lost the use of an arm until they received healing; while I've no doubt HP magic could do that, it's not going to be any use in combat. Frodo's dagger broke when he tried to attack the Witch-King on Weathertop, but he didn't really do anything, so there was no other injury (aside from the stab wound, of course). Aragorn never really injured the Nazgul when he drove them off; he only managed it because first, he'd surprised them with fire, and second, all they needed to do now was wait. Nobody else ever really even got past the fear to try attacking them.

The Nazgul have their own powers and magic, too; they knock Merry (a magic-resistant hobbit) out at a distance. The Witch-King got that name when he was the sorceror king of Angmar.

And that's not factoring in their abilities as immortal swordsmen-kings.

[bugsysservant]

No. Just no. He was using the sword as a secondary magical focus with his staff as his primary. Even when he lost his staff he was able to use the sword to kill the Balrog. A normal blade would've been destroyed if it stabbed a Balrog. An elven blade would at least be singed. Gandalf's was pristine when the battle was said and done, most likely because he used magic through the blade.


Not really all that true. Glamdring (Gandalf's Sword) wasn't just any elven sword. It was the elven sword. It was even used by Turgon himself at the fall of Gondolin. I can only think of two swords that would come close to it in power. Those would be Ringil (Fingolfin's) and Anglachel/Gurthang (the sword of Turin.) Frankly, Anduril doesn't even come close. And as for weapons being destroyed by Balrogs, I don't recall that ever happening. The fact that warriors could kill multiple Balrogs in one battle even strongly implies that that isn't true.

[Winterwind]

No. Just no. He was using the sword as a secondary magical focus with his staff as his primary. Even when he lost his staff he was able to use the sword to kill the Balrog. A normal blade would've been destroyed if it stabbed a Balrog. An elven blade would at least be singed. Gandalf's was pristine when the battle was said and done, most likely because he used magic through the blade.Actually, Glamdring was an elven blade. One forged in Gondolin, to be precise, so chances are this wasn't the first Balrog killed by it. :smallwink:

One thing just occured to me - on the minion level, all but the most strong-willed minions on both sides won't count. The_Snark has already described what the Nazgul would do to most of Voldemort's servants; on the other hand, Voldemort has the dementors, who would have a similar effect on all the orcs and other lesser beings in Sauron's service.

EDIT: Ninja'd. Huh, that was Turgon's sword? Didn't know that, where is that info from? (If you say The Silmarillion now I will be very, very ashamed :smalltongue: )
EDIT2: Don't answer. Found it. The Hobbit. Didn't remember it because Elrond never actually mentions Turgon by name there. Still ashamed. :smallbiggrin:

[Ditto]

Dementors are a good counterpoint to Nazgul, good call.

Wiz/Paladin is a joke, team. It's the common build suggested for Gandalf detractors.

Weapons that *physically* strike a Nazgul are broken. Gandalf 'attacked' the Nazgul with shiny light, and that worked. Just imagine what would happen if someone shot a *proper* curse at them. There's no reason a wand would break in battle. Let that item go, seriously.

If Voldemort finds his powers are *that* drained by all of the Nazguls attacking him, then he leaves. Apparition is a HUGE advantage - instant retreat saves all sorts of hopeless battles from being routs. (But I don't see that whole hopeless battle thing happening... how are orcs against flying units, again?) There are only a handful of units who could pose a threat to a wizard, and wizards can all pose a huge threat independently. Sauron unquestionably has numerical superiority, but only his few, Epic commanders can pose any sort of problem.

Turning the already-dodgy Death Eaters' ambition against them is a thought, but ultimately even one wizard is a match for anything short of the Epic team. Voldemort would take them all on alone, if it came to that, and acquit himself brilliantly.

[BanjoTheClown]

I Think Harry would Win.

[Emperor Ing]

Well....the eye of sauron vs Voldemort, then in spite of the wand superdropping voldemort's badass factor, he would win.

Normal Sauron, the voldemort, just frickin forget about it. I dont care how many black holes of badassness youve killed, you cant win against a badass. You lost against a badass (vader), and you'll lose to another badass!!

[Eita]

Not really all that true. Glamdring (Gandalf's Sword) wasn't just any elven sword. It was the elven sword. It was even used by Turgon himself at the fall of Gondolin. I can only think of two swords that would come close to it in power. Those would be Ringil (Fingolfin's) and Anglachel/Gurthang (the sword of Turin.) Frankly, Anduril doesn't even come close. And as for weapons being destroyed by Balrogs, I don't recall that ever happening. The fact that warriors could kill multiple Balrogs in one battle even strongly implies that that isn't true.

It's a freaking giant made of shadow and flame. What do you think would happen if you put a regular metal blade into it? The Balrog slayers had heritage. Those with heritage usually have elven blades. As for the other points, I concede, but still say that he probably used it to help channel magic.

[The_Snark]

Dementors are a good counterpoint to Nazgul, good call.

Skeptical. Dementors have detrimental effects, but not on a Nazgul level; they cause depression and some fear, not bone-chilling terror. They're more numerous, but that's their only advantage, and in a single mass battle it's not much of one. In every other respect the Nazgul win.


Weapons that *physically* strike a Nazgul are broken. Gandalf 'attacked' the Nazgul with shiny light, and that worked. Just imagine what would happen if someone shot a *proper* curse at them. There's no reason a wand would break in battle. Let that item go, seriously.

Possible, but I'd also doubt the effectiveness of Dark curses against the Nazgul. They're not really alive, after all. Good magic would actually work better against them. And we don't really know what would happen if a ranged weapon or magical blast struck them; the book Nazgul were never hit by arrows that I can recall, and in the books Gandalf summoned a light that drove them off, not a light that shot out and hit one of them.


If Voldemort finds his powers are *that* drained by all of the Nazguls attacking him, then he leaves. Apparition is a HUGE advantage - instant retreat saves all sorts of hopeless battles from being routs. (But I don't see that whole hopeless battle thing happening... how are orcs against flying units, again?) There are only a handful of units who could pose a threat to a wizard, and wizards can all pose a huge threat independently. Sauron unquestionably has numerical superiority, but only his few, Epic commanders can pose any sort of problem.

Granted on the apparition; that's one solid advantage, albeit one that won't save you if you're already dead or too bewitched to think of it. But flying...? Flying renders you a target for Sauron's massed army of orcs and their arrows. It would be one of the worst things the wizards could do in a pitched battle. The Nazgul would also wreak havoc on flying forces with flying mounts.

[warty goblin]

Dementors are a good counterpoint to Nazgul, good call.





... how are orcs against flying units, again?



Two things:
1) Dementors are repelled by Happy Thoughts(tm). Nazgul are repelled by a very few very ancient powers (Rivendell, Gandalf). Other than that, not much.
Also HP spells bounce off of just about everything, they have no penetrating power. Put dudes in armor and give 'em shields, magic negated.

2) Bows: One good shot from an orc and flying dudes are toast. Orcs can be given bows, generally use poisoned arrows (for extra added killingitude!) and are pretty good shots. I'll take being Sauron and commanding 1,000 orcs with bows vs. your flying wizard any day (and that's selling the orc population short by a long haul). Soon as they come in range to attack, there's ~500 arrows coming their way. HP wizards can move objects, but only by concentrating on them one at a time, and a barbed arrow through the throat will kill a wizard just as dead as anybody else (basically they don't seem to have anything like Protection from Arrows). So they apperate out of the way- that's another battle won for me in that I hold territory, wizards are driven off (assuming that they can apperate fast enough, it seems to take a minute and they can't concentrate on anything else). I can wage scorched earth warfare with my orcs. I don't care about burning stuff down. Let's see how well wizards fight without food (which they explicitly can't create). I'll keep enough farms around to feed my orcs, and enough orcs with bows around to guard my farms. Soon enough I know where the wizards will have to strike (more or less) in order to get food, every time they do, there's more chance of them getting fatally stuck with an arrow. Give it 40 - 50 years, those not killed are dead of old age, leaving only Voldermort, who hates non-humans and won't even try to recruit orcs. One random dude teleporting around trying to kill me (I can't die) doesn't bother me. Eventually I'll find the Ring and boom, world's mine, or one of my followers finds the Ring, it reaches me and boom, world's mine, or Voldermort finds the Ring, is quickly bent to my will and boom, world's mine and I get the fun of watching his eternal torment seeing it on my hand. All because of orcs with bows.

edit: why do all of my posts turn into such walls of text :smallconfused: ?

[Ditto]

You're going to keep food away from teleporters with stationary troops? :smallconfused:

Wizards absolutely are squishy once you hit them. But Protection from Arrows is a simple D&D spell, and it's been demonstrated that wizards can atomize incoming projectiles as well as conjure physical barriers. Curses often rebound from inanimate objects, but clothing has never been protection. It's more like striking a person's 'aura'; in any event, instead of a Stunner, he shoots a bolt transfiguring the armor into feathers. Or acid. Or ducks. And then he shoots another Stunner. Or just scraps the whole individual-shooting thing and launches fireballs. HP magic can do all sorts of things besides shooting laser-bullets.

Broomsticks are more manueverable than the Nazgul's beasts (marginally), and the Nazgul beasts are very much killable. No more flying Nazgul.

If finding the Ring is the ultimate definer of this battle, then Voldemort will make it his business to learn about it. Most of this is about the forces fighting for the battles, mm? Neither Voldemort or Sauron can really die, yadda yadda.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Well, both of them quite clearly can, is the thing. It's just really hard.

[The_Snark]

Yeah... Sauron, it should be noted, doesn't like to do things himself unless he's fairly sure he will win. In the books, he wasn't present at the Black Gate, but not because he couldn't have taken a physical form; it was because he didn't need to be there. If Aragorn had had the Ring, it would have been an unnecessary risk to actually go there when his armies could have wiped them off the map without him.

The Ring isn't an end-all... not for Voldemort, anyway. It's implied that getting control of it takes time and a lot of willpower, which is why he was so eager to overwhelm Gondor when he thought Aragorn might use the Ring.


But Protection from Arrows is a simple D&D spell, and it's been demonstrated that wizards can atomize incoming projectiles as well as conjure physical barriers.

Has it? When did they atomize hundreds of incoming projectiles? They've deflected enemy spells, but I see no Wall of Disintegration. As for a physical barrier, okay, but that means you're immobile, and there's a barrier between you and your enemy. In any case, the orcs only have to get lucky a few times.

Broomsticks are probably more maneuverable than the Nazgul-beasts, but that won't help if you get caught in a dive, or if you're knocked off. And attacking the Nazgul-mounts is as hard as attacking the Nazgul themselves. In the entire Return of the King, apparently only one person (Faramir) ever managed to shoot at them, even though they were flying over a city full of archers. And these are soldiers who've fought all their lives; I'd equate their bravery with that of Death Eaters, certainly.

I don't think anyone's trying to argue that armor would protect from curses... although keep in mind that Sauron is still in the business of forging powerful artifacts, as evidenced by Grond.

[warty goblin]

You're going to keep food away from teleporters with stationary troops? :smallconfused:

Wizards absolutely are squishy once you hit them. But Protection from Arrows is a simple D&D spell, and it's been demonstrated that wizards can atomize incoming projectiles as well as conjure physical barriers. Curses often rebound from inanimate objects, but clothing has never been protection. It's more like striking a person's 'aura'; in any event, instead of a Stunner, he shoots a bolt transfiguring the armor into feathers. Or acid. Or ducks. And then he shoots another Stunner. Or just scraps the whole individual-shooting thing and launches fireballs. HP magic can do all sorts of things besides shooting laser-bullets.

Broomsticks are more manueverable than the Nazgul's beasts (marginally), and the Nazgul beasts are very much killable. No more flying Nazgul.

If finding the Ring is the ultimate definer of this battle, then Voldemort will make it his business to learn about it. Most of this is about the forces fighting for the battles, mm? Neither Voldemort or Sauron can really die, yadda yadda.

Actually yes, I do intend to keep food away from the deatheaters using stationary troops. Time really doesn't phase me much, I'm an immortal being, if it takes another 50 years so what? I don't expect to actually starve my enemy into submission, but I can hold territory and limit their options. Voldermort is going to have a hellish time trying to recruit, since I'm Sauron and my motto is "Morder: Leaders in the Evil Industry since the Second Age, why settle for less pain and torment?" As I slowly kill off the Death Eaters and isolate Voldermort, the chances of him finally yeilding to the temptation to join the master of all darkness (dat's me folks!) increase until eventually he falls into my power. Queue eternity of torture in the Houses of Lamentation.

And so what if Voldermort learns of the Ring? He's not got the strength to really use it- there's no way he's got the power of Gandalf or Galadrial in terms of commanding people which seems to be what the Ring grants, and those two (plus Saruman and possibly Aragorn) are the only beings that can challenge me using the Ring. There's no way that Voldermort would have the willpower to destroy the Ring, LOTR pretty much proves that nobody can do that, so it'll bend him to its will and bring him to me. Queue eternity of torture in the Houses of Lamentation (playthings that can't die are so much fun...)

[bugsysservant]

I don't think anyone's trying to argue that armor would protect from curses... although keep in mind that Sauron is still in the business of forging powerful artifacts, as evidenced by Grond.

Wait, Sauron forged Grond? I had thought that that was made by Morgoth for himself. I was also under the impression that the forging of the one ring had used so much of Sauron's personal power that he was pretty much precluded from making anything significant again.

[warty goblin]

Wait, Sauron forged Grond? I had thought that that was made by Morgoth for himself. I was also under the impression that the forging of the one ring had used so much of Sauron's personal power that he was pretty much precluded from making anything significant again.

No Sauron forged Grond, and named it that in honor of Morgoth's Hammer of Old. I'm not sure that Grond is much more than a really really big battering ram though, but I could be wrong, its been a while since I read the books (heresy I know)

[LordVader]

Grond is basically the Big Daddy of all maces.

[Ditto]

There's two separate questions - who would win in a (somewhat) never-ending battle, and who would survive longest in empire building. Sauron wins the latter. It's a battle in a void, more or less. You run away only so long as it serves to set up your next attack. Getting into the logistics of holding territory and establishing flourishing local economies and garnering the support of the people isn't what vs. threads are all about, typically...
And stationary troops still aren't going to stop teleporters.

The Ring takes time to work its magic, and grows gradually stronger the closer you are to Mount McScaryEye. I point once again to HowItShouldHaveEnded. Voldemort apparates in, drops it, apparates out. He doesn't have to physically touch it, even. I'm not saying this is a major concern or strategy for winning, I'm just saying it's not by any means impossible to pull off. And the Ring *can* be controlled by a being of sufficient willpower... and if anyone's determined enough, I'd say Voldemort is. But that aside...

Sauron could have corporealized whenever he wanted?

Dumbledore made a barrier that dusted scads of glass shards. Wizards can conjure gusts of wind, as well solid barriers (that could - gasp! - move along with the wizard). These can be actual physical objects, or a Shield Charm (Protego), which has a physical oomph to it. Flying around behind a giant conjured shield and shooting through a peephole is a viable tactic, too, if you wanted to try it.

Wizards are tougher than humans (they bounce, actually) - not so much as you'd notice, but they could deal with it if they got hit by an arrow or two and had to duck out to recuperate. They do have healing spells that work basically on the spot, so long as they only have to deal with one injury at a time. It's damn hard to hit them as it is.

[warty goblin]

There's two separate questions - who would win in a (somewhat) never-ending battle, and who would survive longest in empire building. Sauron wins the latter. It's a battle in a void, more or less. You run away only so long as it serves to set up your next attack. Getting into the logistics of holding territory and establishing flourishing local economies and garnering the support of the people isn't what vs. threads are all about, typically...
And stationary troops still aren't going to stop teleporters.

The Ring takes time to work its magic, and grows gradually stronger the closer you are to Mount McScaryEye. I point once again to HowItShouldHaveEnded. Voldemort apparates in, drops it, apparates out. He doesn't have to physically touch it, even. I'm not saying this is a major concern or strategy for winning, I'm just saying it's not by any means impossible to pull off. And the Ring *can* be controlled by a being of sufficient willpower... and if anyone's determined enough, I'd say Voldemort is. But that aside...

Sauron could have corporealized whenever he wanted?

Dumbledore made a barrier that dusted scads of glass shards. Wizards can conjure gusts of wind, as well solid barriers (that could - gasp! - move along with the wizard). These can be actual physical objects, or a Shield Charm (Protego), which has a physical oomph to it. Flying around behind a giant conjured shield and shooting through a peephole is a viable tactic, too, if you wanted to try it.

Wizards are tougher than humans (they bounce, actually) - not so much as you'd notice, but they could deal with it if they got hit by an arrow or two and had to duck out to recuperate. They do have healing spells that work basically on the spot, so long as they only have to deal with one injury at a time. It's damn hard to hit them as it is.

I fail to see why enough stationary troops can't hold territory against teleporters by the following means:
1) Find good farmland
2) Set up well guarded farms there
3) Reduce everything else to toxic slag

Wizards can't create food, this strategy removes all non-Sauron controlled food from the equation. Voldermort might not need to eat since he cannot die (although his body can apparently, so eating is good) but the rest of the Death Eaters do. Thus they need to either a) Take up agriculture, which pins them down and is difficult to do on toxic slag or b) raid one of the orc-with-bow guarded farms (hunting is out, since everything not a farm is toxic slag devoid of life). Even if they manage to kill a thousand orcs for every Death Eater lost (which is pretty darn optimistic, remember that Death Eaters are actually threatened by House Elves with silverware) Sauron still wins in the end. Sooner or later the Death Eaters are all dead, and Voldermort seems to have a lot of difficulty reforming without aid, making him at best a minor nusiance who reforms every ten odd years until eventually he's dealt with once and for all.

And where in any of the books does it say that wizards bounce?

Ring wise, if Voldermort ever possesed it, it would destroy his mind with immense ease. The Ring preys on arrogance and lust for power, both of which Voldermort has in spades. Yes it does take some time to work, but not that long, Sam nearly succumbed to the Ring after possessing it for only a few hours, and Sam is made of far hardier moral fiber that Voldermort. Voldermort would fold up like a wet tissue to the Ring. Harry might have a chance, since he's pretty good at resisting temptation and the lure of power, but not Voldermort. Touching the Ring is not neccessary, it corrupted Boromir and he only saw it once. The best defense against the Ring is goodness of spirit and innocence backed by willpower, but willpower itself is not enough. Voldermort by splitting his soul basically has no innocence (remember his spirit is a diseases baby) and would not have much of a hope of withstanding the Ring.

[DomaDoma]

And where in any of the books does it say that wizards bounce?


I think he's talking about Neville's first sign of accidental magic?

I'll note that wizards don't appear to make healing a big focus in general training, for whatever reason. Madam Pomfrey and Snape seem to be the only ones at Hogwarts with any expertise in the subject.

[Eita]

I think he's talking about Neville's first sign of accidental magic?

I'll note that wizards don't appear to make healing a big focus in general training, for whatever reason. Madam Pomfrey and Snape seem to be the only ones at Hogwarts with any expertise in the subject.

Yeah... Neville bounced because he accidentally cast a spell that made him bounce.

Indeed. Mending bones is not task for the impatient.

[Setra]

It kinda seems like everyone is.. for lack of better words at the moment as I am tired "Tactically optimizing" Voldemort and Sauron.

Seriously, I can't see Voldemort really using hit and run tactics, he's arrogant, he likes to win, and he'd probably charge straight up to Sauron's gates, then when they open he'd..

Okay I dunno, but I doubt he'd do a lot of the things people are saying he SHOULD DO, because he is dumb.

[Eita]

Voldy: You can't kill me!

Sauron: You're right. Cursed Horcruxes. Okay, orcs, kill everyone else and give him the Ring.

[Rowanomicon]

It kinda seems like everyone is.. for lack of better words at the moment as I am tired "Tactically optimizing" Voldemort and Sauron.

Seriously, I can't see Voldemort really using hit and run tactics, he's arrogant, he likes to win, and he'd probably charge straight up to Sauron's gates, then when they open he'd..

Okay I dunno, but I doubt he'd do a lot of the things people are saying he SHOULD DO, because he is dumb.

Here here!

I totally agree. People seem to take this how they would fight given the powers of the different sides.

It's quite simple Voldemort (and his minions) might stand a chance if they weren't to freaking dumb. Also it would help if the Death Eater weren't a bunch of cowards.

Oh and that lead me to another point: considering the majority of Voldemort's followers only follow him because they're afraid they'd probably leave him for Sauron's side quite quickly. So now we're looking at Sauren et co. plus HP wizards against Voldemort and his most loyal.
It's not like Voldemort had a felines chance in the Abyss anyway.

EDIT: Eita, you're right except for one thing. Sauron has the resources and manpower that HP lacks to find and destroy the phylacteries.

[Eita]

EDIT: Eita, you're right except for one thing. Sauron has the resources and manpower that HP lacks to find and destroy the phylacteries.

He'd probably go with the ring approach because it is faster and easier. Once Voldy was corrupted, he would lead Sauron to his own Horcruxes. I imagine that Sauron would destroy all but one and bind it to his will.

[bugsysservant]

No Sauron forged Grond, and named it that in honor of Morgoth's Hammer of Old. I'm not sure that Grond is much more than a really really big battering ram though, but I could be wrong, its been a while since I read the books (heresy I know)

Oh, that Grond. I forgot that they named that ram after Morgoth's mace. :smallredface:

[Ditto]

Re: Wizards bounce - Right, Neville. I'm also alluding to Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer's famous line "Bumbles bounce!", because it's a great explanation for why Cornelius doesn't die. However you read it, wizards are magically (somewhat) hardier than Muggles. That's not to say they don't get hurt, but they don't die that easily. The can fall off of brooms sticks a hundred feet in the air and suffer a few broken bones, get slammed by whomping willows and sit up a little bruised, and so on. As far as healing, that's what they have hospitals for - of course Hogwarts doesn't have a big staff of healers. :smalltongue: That said, it's no major to-do for wizards to learn Episkey, a spell which tidies up lesser wounds. It's the equivalent of Star Trek's dermal regenerator. ('Tis only a flesh wound!)

Re: Food - "La la la, I'm an orc guarding a barrel of wine..." *poof* *poof* "What was that? Oh, dear... where the did barrel go?" :smallsigh:

That's a fair point about tactically optimizing the two sides. Still, it's common practice in vs. threads to assume the best possible strategy and tactics among both sides at the height of their power, and generalizing the whole of one sides forces from the sample demographic. That is, in Star Trek threads, you assume that every starship comes standard with a MacGyver chief engineer who can do anything with a deflector dish, and every Republic task force comes with a Jedi. The raw power of HP is indisputably higher than LOTR, and LOTR has the manpower advantage a hundreds of thousands to one over HP. It's a question of which kind of war you want to have them fighting.

What sort of powers does the Ring have in the hands of anyone but Sauron? (Besides invisibility, that is, which is no great boon to wizards.) If Voldemort says, "This is sort of nifty for me, and supernifty for Sauron... keep a sort of nifty trinket, or remove my enemy's link to the material plane... hm..." he could probably make the intelligent choice. He's only blinded by stupidity when he has a personal stake in the matter at hand, and "Kill evil overloard" doesn't have that kind of connection for him.

[warty goblin]

Re: Food - "La la la, I'm an orc guarding a barrel of wine..." *poof* *poof* "What was that? Oh, dear... where the did barrel go?" :smallsigh:

What sort of powers does the Ring have in the hands of anyone but Sauron? (Besides invisibility, that is, which is no great boon to wizards.) If Voldemort says, "This is sort of nifty for me, and supernifty for Sauron... keep a sort of nifty trinket, or remove my enemy's link to the material plane... hm..." he could probably make the intelligent choice. He's only blinded by stupidity when he has a personal stake in the matter at hand, and "Kill evil overloard" doesn't have that kind of connection for him.

RE: Hardier Wizards- I personally just thought that was plot shields, since its never mentioned that being a wizard makes you superhumanly tough.

RE: Food- A wizard needs to apperate in, either manually grab or summon the food, then apperate out. Minimum time: ~30 seconds, assuming they come in right on top of the food. Even in 95% of the time they escape, given their numbers and Sauron's numbers, that 5% is enough to kill them all eventually. Invisibility won't work against orcs, who will locate a wizard by hearing and smell (all those lovely potion ingredients)

RE: Ring- Nobody is actually capable of destroying the Ring on purpose. Even Frodo couldn't do it, and I submit that Frodo has about ten times Voldermort's willpower. People can't bear to see the Ring in danger, remember Frodo's reaction when Gandalf put the Ring in the fire? People simply can't think rationally about the Ring, only being of vast age and power can temporarily withstand it, such as Galadrial and Gandalf- and they already had Rings which might help. Sam (who's a pretty tough dude) could barely bring himself to give Frodo the Ring again, and he'd only had it for a few hours. Put it this way, in HP#4 Harry shows his will to be stronger than that of Voldermort when he overcomes him when the wands are linked. If Voldermort looses a battle of wills to a 14 year old boy, what chance do you think he has against a demi-god and the most powerful and intelligent artifact in the world?

[Ditto]

Wizards are most definitely canon tough. The first wizards playing quidditch hundreds of years ago aren't important enough to merit plot armor, but no one has ever died playing Quidditch.

Muffliato will block hearing a wizard approach, and wizards aren't any smellier than orcs are. If they *are* for some reason, they can just pull out an Odor-not-o spell. Even so... ::poof poof:: Hasn't anyone seen Nightcrawler moving around? You don't need to stand in one place to case a room.

The freaking hobbit did not have more willpower than Voldemort. If he was able to hold on because of his squeaky clean shinyhappy-ness, then that's one thing. But willpower? Most definitely not. In the graveyard vs. Harry, I'm willing to chalk that up to being extremely surprised... and that Harry had the power of looooove on his side. Stupid love.

[Winterwind]

Voldemort: "And now, with mighty magic and elaborate schemes, I shall vanquish your armies and destroy your plans!"
Sauron looks at him sternly.
Voldemort: "...Elude your forces and wait for a better day?"
Sauron keeps staring him down.
Voldemort: "...Lie down and cower in fear like a little girl?"
Sauron doesn't shift his gaze.
Voldemort: "...Serve you for all eternity while in unimaginable torment?"
Sauron nods.


Sorry, just couldn't help myself after reading all these thoughts on Sauron's corruptive powers and mind control abilities. :smallbiggrin:

[Ditto]

Heh, this scene is as good as the "That's normal." bit from last page. :smallbiggrin:

[Wizzardman]

Wizards are most definitely canon tough. The first wizards playing quidditch hundreds of years ago aren't important enough to merit plot armor, but no one has ever died playing Quidditch.

Muffliato will block hearing a wizard approach, and wizards aren't any smellier than orcs are. If they *are* for some reason, they can just pull out an Odor-not-o spell. Even so... ::poof poof:: Hasn't anyone seen Nightcrawler moving around? You don't need to stand in one place to case a room.

The freaking hobbit did not have more willpower than Voldemort. If he was able to hold on because of his squeaky clean shinyhappy-ness, then that's one thing. But willpower? Most definitely not. In the graveyard vs. Harry, I'm willing to chalk that up to being extremely surprised... and that Harry had the power of looooove on his side. Stupid love.

Sorry, but I have to repeat the statement made earlier: threatened by House Elves with silverware. I'm sorry, but preternaturally tough wizards simply aren't canon with the Harry Potter Universe. Sure, many of them have spells which help out in that regard, but to be totally honest, there are only three reasons that no one has ever died in Quidditch: number one, HP brooms are designed with several magical enhancements (including a comfy invisible cushion) that make it difficult to fall off the broom; number two, Quidditch players are surrounded by an audience made up entirely of wizards with Feather Fall always prepared; and number three, the series was originally a children's series, and thus having random people dying due to REALITY would lose a lot of the child-oriented feeling Rowling wanted magic to have. Honestly, wizards are no tougher than ordinary people with magic sticks. In some ways, they're tougher, as they have more access to magical healing and defense; in some ways, they're weaker, as they have very few physical sports and can always avoid the heavy lifting. Either way, the advantage magic gives them may make them poison resistant (due to spells), and somewhat arrow resistant (due to spells), but not death resistant. Given sufficient quantity of orcs and sufficient quantity of time, they won't last any longer than the other humans who were slaughtered by Saurons' army (many of whom had been fighting for years, and could take an arrow or two without problem).

And, again, even if Frodo only was able to safeguard the ring due to squeaky-cleanness, it still indicates that Voldemort would not be able to control the ring. Sorry, but Voldemort's about as squeaky-clean as David Duke in a mudpuddle. And sheer will alone will not contain the ring--Gandalf refused to hold it for fear of what it would do to him, and he's a friggin celestial-made-manifest. And keep in mind, Voldemort has never been shown to be captain willpower: true, he's an expert at mental defense, but he seems to have problems restraining himself when it would be tactically wise (even in the last book, he has a tendency to get overexcited when he thinks he's winning, and he's definately not the cleverest of wizards). And even though he's an expert at mental defense, I doubt he'd actually exercise that skill--being offered ultimate power tends to get any BBEG overexcited.

[Executor]

I do not agree that HP magic has more raw power than LOTR magic. It's just... HP magic is flashier, easier to see it's influence, whereas LOTR magic is much more subtle, it's more like The Force than the typical "Shoot lightning bolts from fingers" magic of fantasy like it. LOTR magic seems to be more silent, more subtle, but infinetely more powerful than HP magic. Oh sure Voldie can kill a man with one spell. Gandalf could probably do that as well, he is, afterall, the most dangerous being in Middle-Earth excluding the REAL Dark Lord, Sauron. Take Balrogs, those are beings of pure magic (shadow and flame held together and given form by magic) and so far I have yet to see anything in HP to match a Balrog. How about Tolkien Dragons? Those were created by Morgoth through sheer force of will, willpower seems to be the driving force behind Middle-Earth magic, and no HP dragon can match the Uruloki. Ancalagon the Black, largest of all dragons, was big enough to blot out the sun with his wingspan, big enough that when he died, he brought an entire mountain range down with his fall. That was created through Morgoth's magic. How about the enchantment cast by Melian that protected her huge forest home from orcs for hundreds of years? While it may be more subtle, i'd say that LOTR magic is much more powerful than HP.

[warty goblin]

Good points Wizzardman.

Further food-detention scheme details:
1) The way that food is stored- make sure its always in large awkward containers, preferably with spikes on the container to makes summoning problematic. Make these containers heavy enough that they need to be moved around by troll, even if a wizard gets ahold of one, I'm pretty sure aperition doesn't work on excessively large objects, and even if it does, they're pinned down until they can apperate. Nothing says "You loose" like summoning a barrel of pork chops and getting impaled by it.

2) Keep the food in a dark, interior place. Wizards don't see in the dark- they must creat light (and don't give me something about a "see in the dark" charm, if they could do that they would, since its far less obvious than flashlight wands), orcs need very very little light to see, and in fact operate better in darkness. Now the wizards need to teleport in, create light, find food that's not booby-trapped, get it out of its lethal containers, and teleport out, all without attracting a deadly hail of arrows.

3) Make it orc food- basically inedible to humans. Nothing lowers moral faster than risking your life for crap food.

Sure the wizards will manage to steal food frequently, probably even most of the time, that's not the point. This plan essentially robs them of their mobility advantage by forcing them to attack on Sauron's terms. Moral will drop quite rapidly, the Death Eaters are having to constantly risk their lives simply to procure food, to say nothing of winning the war. Eventually there will be desertions, deaths, and quarrelling in Death Eater central, a cosy little shack out in the middle of the barren, toxic slag. Most of the Death Eaters don't seem to want to risk much for Voldermort (how many of them denounced him to avoid Azkaban? I guarentee that Sauron has things that make Azkaban look like Disney World), how long do you really think that they will stand by him when they're starving, isolated and without apparent hope of victory?

[DomaDoma]

1) The way that food is stored- make sure its always in large awkward containers, preferably with spikes on the container to makes summoning problematic. Make these containers heavy enough that they need to be moved around by troll, even if a wizard gets ahold of one, I'm pretty sure aperition doesn't work on excessively large objects, and even if it does, they're pinned down until they can apperate. Nothing says "You loose" like summoning a barrel of pork chops and getting impaled by it.

2) Keep the food in a dark, interior place. Wizards don't see in the dark- they must creat light (and don't give me something about a "see in the dark" charm, if they could do that they would, since its far less obvious than flashlight wands), orcs need very very little light to see, and in fact operate better in darkness. Now the wizards need to teleport in, create light, find food that's not booby-trapped, get it out of its lethal containers, and teleport out, all without attracting a deadly hail of arrows.

3) Make it orc food- basically inedible to humans. Nothing lowers moral faster than risking your life for crap food.

Well, there is the Hand of Glory. For the less stealthy, a Lumos charm might grant them a split-second advantage - more, against the lesser orcs. And you don't need to Summon the food - just Vanish it, then Conjure it once you're safely away.

But we do run up against the fact that orcs prefer human flesh, don't we?

[Greebo]

You can't conjure food in the HP world because of Dues Ex Starvation rules imposed in book 7.

[Setra]

You can't conjure food in the HP world because of Dues Ex Starvation rules imposed in book 7.
In theory you could just go

"Accio Food Crate"

"Accio Wine Barrel"

Or something like that. I can't recall correctly but I am pretty sure I remember brooms going through chains so..

Now if you'll excuse me *wanders off*

Accio Catgirl!

[Winterwind]

In theory you could just go

"Accio Food Crate"

"Accio Wine Barrel"I had the same thought, but then, Harry merely says "Accio Broom", or something like that, and it gets his broom. Not some random broom elsewhere about which he doesn't even know. So I doubt you could use that without localising that food first.

But I agree with you anyway, I don't think this would become an issue because of the tactics the two sides would likely employ. I imagine it would be decided much faster than that.

I think what would happen would be that the Deatheaters would launch hit-and-run attacks on Sauron's forces, until the Nazgul find out where the Deatheaters are retreating to (as a group or individually) and kill them all before they get a chance to flee.

[warty goblin]

That's actually my guess as to what would happen as well, I was merely attempting to demonstrate that enough immobile troops could in fact counter teleporting wizards through resource deprivation. Anyway, I've made my arguments, make of them what you will.

[DomaDoma]

You can't conjure food in the HP world because of Dues Ex Starvation rules imposed in book 7.

You can Conjure it from the hyperspace you Vanish things to, or why would Mrs. Weasley Vanish the Order's plans in book five? And why would Hermione stand for Vanishing kittens in the same book? And how does Mrs. Weasley pour the white sauce out of her wand in book four?

BTW, it's spelled D-E-U-S. Deus ex Machina - the god from the machine. I've seen it wrong way too many times for it to be a coincidence.

[warty goblin]

You can Conjure it from the hyperspace you Vanish things to, or why would Mrs. Weasley Vanish the Order's plans in book five? And why would Hermione stand for Vanishing kittens in the same book? And how does Mrs. Weasley pour the white sauce out of her wand in book four?

BTW, it's spelled D-E-U-S. Deus ex Machina - the god from the machine. I've seen it wrong way too many times for it to be a coincidence.

Inconsistant magic system?
Sorry, but there are some glaring inconsistancies in the magic system in HP. Most notably is the thing with underage magic, first they can't tell who casts a spell, merely where it was cast, then in book 7 suddenly the Ministry can tell who casts a spell. I like HP a lot, and it is a good book, but as an exercise in world creation it leaves a lot to be desired.

[SITB]

Like the fact that you need to remember that "Time Travel=World Breaking"? Or at least belief breaking (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JustEatGilligan?from=Main.WhyDidntTheyJustEatGilli gan).

[Ditto]

The Vanishing spell (Evanesco) would work for swiping things. You're not conjuring food etc. out of thin air (which does, in fact, break the rules) - you're recalling the stuff you've already vanished. It's like Just Add Water! Thus, when you vanish a potion, it is whisked away to the drain, and vanishing the blueprints whisks them into the cabinet. It's perfectly possible to vanish a bushel of grain and recall it when you're safely away. Anyway: If you're spending that much time booby-trapping and spiking and sitting on and otherwise Fort Knoxing your munchies, you've wandered off the path of this thread. (I have too, admittedly.) I'd still like to see someone stop Nightcrawler with a sword. Stopping Nightcrawler with a wand isn't going to get any easier.

Accio is basically a super-Mage Hand. You can use it to grab anything if (and only if) you know exactly where it is. You can say, "History textbook!", "Book-shaped thing under a blanket!", or "Book under the pile of laundry!", but cannot go "History textbook!" wildly around the room until it flies out at you. Accio must be aimed.

HP magic is as inconsistent as people dismiss it as. (To many as's?) See my sig - I've thought about this a lot. :smallbiggrin:


Wizards are certainly not unkillable, but they *are* tough (http://www.hp-lexicon.org/essays/essay-that-had-to-hurt.html)! You have to bend them farther before they break. It's a fact. (Well, y'know. Insofar as Harry Potter has messy hair is a fact.) I like the way this essay puts it - They have the magic equivalent of airbags. They're not stronger physically than most any LOTR beastie to be sure, but they don't need to be.

If the Nazgul are what you need to take out wizards, then you're gonna be shorthanded most of the time. And it's easy to escape when you're a wizard, remember? Poof? 'Before they get a chance to flee' is a very, very silly length of time to speak of.

Frodo is squeakygood is the only reason he could survive the Ring's influence, plausibly. Willpower is an absurd argument. Again, Voldemort gets distracted when he has a personal stake in the issue at hand, which he does not in the case of "Kill this army."

[Eita]

Due to time constraints, I shall merely say this. Wizards have been killed in Quidditch. I quote.


No one's died in ages!

That means people used to die playing the game but now have safety measures such as possibly softening the ground.

[warty goblin]

If the Nazgul are what you need to take out wizards, then you're gonna be shorthanded most of the time. And it's easy to escape when you're a wizard, remember? Poof? 'Before they get a chance to flee' is a very, very silly length of time to speak of.

Frodo is squeakygood is the only reason he could survive the Ring's influence, plausibly. Willpower is an absurd argument. Again, Voldemort gets distracted when he has a personal stake in the issue at hand, which he does not in the case of "Kill this army."

Assuming you can apperate around a Nazgul. Exposure to dementors can break a wizard's ability over enough time. Dementors cause depression and a loss of happyness. The Nazgul shatter entire armies through the sheer terror of their presense- a far cry from merely sapping happiness and causing an early frost. It seems reasonable that exposure to a Nazgul would strip one of magic powers much much faster than a dementor would, and that due to the overwhelming horror of their presense, magic would pretty much flee the mind of most people- probably not Voldermort or the really powerful Death Eaters, but I'd bet that the weaker ones would simply fold up and cry, or flee blindly.

And what about Shelob? I'd say that pretty much no magic could really affect her directly- she's the daughter of a being so evil that even the gods couldn't stop her, and is a clever hunter, well capable of outthinking most opponants.

Again, wizards are threatened by house elves with kitchen knives, giants and centaurs- all of whom basically depend on some form of physical violence. Orcs own house elves up one side of Morder and down the other- orcs exist to kill and are pretty good at it, particularly the uruks. LOTR trolls (particularly the Olag-Hai) dominate HP trolls and giants, which can be hurt by clubs (book 1) and ordinary arrows (book 5). LOTR trolls are pretty much immune to anything that's not made by elves or Numenorians

As to your last point, I really don't understand it. If goodness is the only way to withstand the Ring, Voldermort is doomed- personal objective or no. In terms of wisdom in the LOTR sense such as Galadriel and Elrond's ability to percieve things about the future, Gandalf's ability to set vast forces in motion single-handedly, Aragorn's inate ability to lead men, Saruman's creation of new forms of orc-goblin men. Voldermort has exploited a fairly obvious aspect of single, long-known aspect of magic (horcruxes, really how did nobody come up with the idea of multiples before?) and started a small racist terrorist organization- even Saruman bereft of most of his power managed to control the Shire. Based on what V has done, I don't see how he could use the Ring to its full extent, and either you use the Ring or it uses you, unless you can withstand its power, which we agree he can't do because he lacks the core of goodness required to do so.

[DomaDoma]

Inconsistant magic system?
Sorry, but there are some glaring inconsistancies in the magic system in HP. Most notably is the thing with underage magic, first they can't tell who casts a spell, merely where it was cast, then in book 7 suddenly the Ministry can tell who casts a spell. I like HP a lot, and it is a good book, but as an exercise in world creation it leaves a lot to be desired.

The Trace is almost certainly a retcon, but it meshes well enough with the original idea - they only know that a spell has been cast in the vicinity of an underage wizard, else the Order would be able to use spells to take Harry from Privet Drive.

But as the Vanishing/Conjuring thing makes a lot more sense than, say, Mrs. Weasley destroying the Order's plans, I'm guessing that's what was intended to begin with.

[Serenity]

His point was that its ridiculous to claim that Voldemort lacks willpower or that Frodo was stronger-willed than him. I think Sauron would win as much the next guy, but I wish people would stop taking the fact that he can't beat a demigod as an excuse to belittle him. Does the fact that a black belt can't dismantle an oncoming tank make him any less dangerous?

[Dhavaer]

Accio is basically a super-Mage Hand. You can use it to grab anything if (and only if) you know exactly where it is. You can say, "History textbook!", "Book-shaped thing under a blanket!", or "Book under the pile of laundry!", but cannot go "History textbook!" wildly around the room until it flies out at you. Accio must be aimed.

"Accio Horcrux books". You don't need to know where the target is. Harry got his broom because he said "Accio Firebolt", and the nearest Firebolt belonged to him.

[DomaDoma]

And what about Shelob? I'd say that pretty much no magic could really affect her directly- she's the daughter of a being so evil that even the gods couldn't stop her, and is a clever hunter, well capable of outthinking most opponants.


Do we count her for Sauron's side, though? I mean, she does seem to spend most of her time snacking on orc patrols.

How did that Ungoliant thing get resolved, anyway? It's been a while since I attempted the Silmarillion.

[Ditto]

I'm agreeing with the idea of Frodo-squeakyness as a way to defend 'Voldemort couldn't handle the ring'; some suggested it was due to lack of willpower, which is patently absurd. If the goodness is specifically what grants resistance, then Voldemort would have a problem. Fair point. :smallsmile:

There is no indication that Nazgul disrupt magic. They make folks despair for psychological as much as mystical reasons. And actually, magical items are the only ones that seem to work niftily around them. I'm inclined to think magic would be perfectly potent near them. And the transfiguration attack is a seriously underrated branch of offensive magic.

LOTR magic is powerful enough, but it's all tied up in items. You can only hit so many people with a special sword at one time.

Is Shelob fighting for Sauron now? I thought she was just left alone in her cave.

That scene about house elves makes makes me very sad... house elves, with their potent sneaky magic, instead charge the wizards with forks and knives? WTF? It's a very epic image, but utterly ridiculous. And I'm inclined to believe some of the more ridiculous things in that battle as atypical, since there hasn't been a full wizard war in... well, ever. Seriously... has there ever been a big wizard war?

[Rowanomicon]

First of all: sorry, Voldemort doesn't have the willpower to handle the ring. He just plain doesn't. That combined with his utter willingness to be corrupted make it so that he wouldn't even give it a second thought.
He wouldn't think: hmm, this ring could mean my demise.
He wouldn't think: must...fight...ring.
He would think: Aha! With this ring I am unstoppable!
Of course then he'd think: must...serve...Sauron.

It's not that Nazgul have a dispel magic property (although they do have magical abilities and would therefore be able to counter magic to a certain degree). They inspire such great fear that most Death Eater, already being sniveling cowards, would curl up in the fetal position and cry for mommy in the presence of one (let alone nine).

While LOTR artifact are incredibly powerful, that is not the limit of LOTR magic. Not by any means. I have no idea where you would have gotten this idea, certainly not from the books or any posts in this thread.

While Shelob is not a servant of Sauron as The Nine are, she is a tool used by him (as a defense mostly). However that hardly matters as she would certainly not be needed to defeat Voldemort.

I still think The Nine along would be enough to take out Voldemort and all his minions. That is to say nothing of the Orcs, Uruks, Trolls, Ologs, Saruman, and, last, but certainly not least, Sauron himself.

[LordVader]

I'd have to agree with that. We don't know what effect spells would have on the Nine, but given the fact that they possess Rings of Power and are no longer mortal, I'd be inclined to doubt the effectiveness of Avada Kedavra on them. Patronuses would probably be mildly effective.

And yes, most of the Death Eaters except for maybe Bellatrix would just cut and run when they approached.

[DomaDoma]

Now that I think on it, Bellatrix would technically be able to take out the Witch-King. Heh.

[warty goblin]

His point was that its ridiculous to claim that Voldemort lacks willpower or that Frodo was stronger-willed than him. I think Sauron would win as much the next guy, but I wish people would stop taking the fact that he can't beat a demigod as an excuse to belittle him. Does the fact that a black belt can't dismantle an oncoming tank make him any less dangerous?

Ah OK, that makes sense, thanks for clarifying. And I hope I never belittled Voldermort, he's a quite effective villian for the story he's in, which is a story that I enjoy. The only way in which he falls short is that he is not near as powerful as other villians, but the Potterverse is somewhat lower powered in many respects when compared to some others.

Bellatrix vs. WitchKing- yes techically she could kill him, but let's face it, we've basically established that the Witch-King is pretty resistant to most magic, and Bellatrix's favored melee weapon is a silver dagger. I'm just not seeing her being able to out-melee the ancient undead swordsman with a dagger, given that he manages to essentially beat Eowyn, who is only saved by Merry's sneak attack. But yes, an amusing thought...

[Alex Knight]

Now that I think on it, Bellatrix would technically be able to take out the Witch-King. Heh.


But Voldy sure couldn't.

Voldemort: "Avada Kedavra!"

Witch King: "Was that supposed to do something?"

[Serenity]

Well, that's presuming one still counts as a man having irrevocably ripped one's soul into pieces to become a horrific snake-like mockery of lie. And I am of the opinion that HP wizards could probably take on most of Sauron's mooks pretty effectively. Fiendfyre would be pretty effective, even on Olag-hai, I'd wager.

[Alex Knight]

Well, that's presuming one still counts as a man having irrevocably ripped one's soul into pieces to become a horrific snake-like mockery of lie. And I am of the opinion that HP wizards could probably take on most of Sauron's mooks pretty effectively. Fiendfyre would be pretty effective, even on Olag-hai, I'd wager.

Voldemort was born a man. Thus, he qualifies.

[Rowanomicon]

Well, it could be argued how much willpower Voldemort has, but he doesn't have the willpower necessary, period.

Also, I don't think it's that people are trying to belittle Voldemort, but compared to Sauron he is quite "little." That's just how it is.

Its simply not a contest.

In fact, when I first clicked on this thread I half expected the OP to say something along the lines of:
"So Voldemort calls himself 'The Dark Lord' too? What do you think Sauron would do to him if he found out Vodlemort was infringing on his copyright?"

[bugsysservant]

Accio is basically a super-Mage Hand. You can use it to grab anything if (and only if) you know exactly where it is. You can say, "History textbook!", "Book-shaped thing under a blanket!", or "Book under the pile of laundry!", but cannot go "History textbook!" wildly around the room until it flies out at you. Accio must be aimed.

Not true. In the Goblet of Fire, Harry and Henchmen are discussing the feasibility of accio-ing an aqualung to fulfill one of the challenges, and the only reason they decided against it was that an aqualung zipping cross country would probably make some muggles curious. The only things that have proven resistant to the accio spell are heavily enchanted items, such as horcruxes. But otherwise, in theory, you could accio anything from any distance.

[Serenity]

Also, I don't think it's that people are trying to belittle Voldemort, but compared to Sauron he is quite "little." That's just how it is.

Its simply not a contest.

Nor anything I'd ever contest myself. It's just that sometimes people make particularly snarky comments that seem targeted at mocking the books and/or calling Voldemort weak. I'm sure in many cases I'm just misinterpreting, but sometimes I just feel the need to jump to his defense and remind people that no, he can't take on a demigod, but he is basically the most dangerous human being in his world, and that is something.

[Eita]

He was killed by a kid with Deus Ex Machina. I mean really, people are overestimating him if he got killed because he couldn't hold onto his wand.

[DomaDoma]

He was killed by a kid with Deus Ex Machina. I mean really, people are overestimating him if he got killed because he couldn't hold onto his wand.

It isn't Deus ex Machina unless it's not established before the hero needs it. Priori Incantatem arguably qualifies, as we don't have anything to go on beyond "the shared cores are somehow important", but wand ownership? Please.

[Shadowdweller]

How did that Ungoliant thing get resolved, anyway? It's been a while since I attempted the Silmarillion.
With Morgoth destroying her after she got too power-mad from having devoured the two trees of Valinor if I recall correctly.

[jamroar]

With Morgoth destroying her after she got too power-mad from having devoured the two trees of Valinor if I recall correctly.


Morgoth didn't destroy her. She wanted to eat the stolen Silmarils which Morgoth coveted for himself, so she attacked him and almost owned him. Morgoth screamed for his Balrogs which came to drive her away. No one knows what happened to Ungoliant afterwards, but it's suggested that she spawned the evil giant spiders of Middle-Earth (like Shelob), and eventually devoured herself in her insatiable hunger.

[Ditto]

What sort of magic do folks in LOTR throw around outside of artifacts? That is, battle-applicable non-stationary magic? I haven't read this trilogy in years, so I may be forgetting something, but I was under the impression that the only (like, 4) serious wizards in the world were busy leaving for the Grey Havens and letting Men fend for themselves. (The "fluff" reason why the supposedly-uber Gandalf didn't wreck stuff up with his Fireballs and Lightning Bolts.") Never read the 'prequel' books, but they don't really matter if we're talking about a LOTR-era battle.

What can Sauron do in battle while non-corporeal? Does he have force beams or heat rays or something?

What use is the Ring to people who are not Sauron? Again, I ask openly since I haven't read any of the pre-books and in LOTR it doesn't seem to be of any use to Frodo as an offensive weapon. If I were Voldemort, I would trash it instead of trying to unlock it, especially after I'd learned of its history. (If he went to trouble of hunting for the Ring in the first place, you can be sure his research was thorough enough to discover 'People who try to rule the Ring, lose.')

The possibility of Accio'ing an aqualung was discussed among 14-year-olds who had just learned a spell, as a joke. It's the only reference like that that is blatantly inconsistent with the spell as detailed by all of the Lexicon-style sources.

We have no reason to assume Avada Kedavra won't work against any of the LOTR baddies, and should stop dismissing it out of hand. Not that it's a win button, but this is an example of two unknown mechanics matching up with unknown results. And magic can kill people in many different ways - most suggestions I've suggested leave AK out entirely. Turning a Fell Beast into a rabbit or surrounding a Nazgul in a ball of iron sound like good tactics to me. Unleashing Fiendfyre on a field full of orcs is another wonderful idea - HP wizards are hard-put to put it out, to say nothing of the non-blaster-casting LOTR (alleged) magic users.

[warty goblin]

The reason that people (including me) have been saying that Voldermort possessing the Ring dooms him is that he can't contend with the Will of Sauron directly as only a human without any special ancestry (in LOTR terms, elven blood) and it is pretty much impossible for anybody to get rid of or destroy the Ring- the thing manages to even break Frodo by the end, and nearly broke Sam in a few hours. A few people are able to let it pass through their control without actually possessing it, but even exposure to it taxes people. Yes destroying the Ring is the rational thing to do, but it is also pretty much impossible to do- even Frodo, whom the Ring brought nothing but pain was unable to actually destroy it himself. Voldermort, being evil and lusting for power would be bent over backwards by the Ring in seconds I'd imagine- even if it did not immediately dominate him, he would be entirely incapable of even trying to damage it. Rationality has nothing to do with the Ring.

[Mr. Mud]

I recently got into an argument today with a friend. He's a big fan of modern, pseudo-fantasy like Harry Potter, I prefer classic high fantasy like the Wheel of Time. Being the pair of geeks we were, we inevitably got into a massive debate over who was the superior evil overlord and tyrant, Sauron of Lord of the Rings fame or Voldemort from Harry Potter.

Now I think the answer should be obvious. Sauron (going by the books) is a demi-god, the utter incarnation of all mortal evils. In physical form he's a 7 foot tall monstrosity that can kill hundreds, thousands, without breaking a sweat. In spiritual form he can see everything in the entire world, probably able to find anyone anywhere. At his beck and call are millions, possibly billions, of ferocious orcs and beasts with penchants for dismemberment and no concept of personal safety. His 9 chief servants, the Nazgul, are impervious to all weapons, cause fear in all life with their very presence and are unparrelled warriors and sorcerors. The head of the Nazgul, the Witch-King, could be an evil overlord in his own right, but he's just one of Sauron's many servants. Hell, Sauron even routinely practices genetic engineering by crossbreeding different types of orcs and trolls to create larger, faster, stronger, smarter monstrosities.

Voldemort, on the other hand, is just a man. A paticularly stubborn man that refuses to die. He's nothing but a racist with a wand and fairly formidable magic skills. The closest equivalent I can think of would be a racist with a gun and markmanship skills gunning down blacks/asians/indians/whites/whatever. His servants are nothing but a handful of other racist wizards with some serious superiority complexes. He also has soul-sucking Dementors, I think Giants but I can't quite remember clearly, and Werewolves.

So, we debated this for some time without reaching any consensus. My friend seemed to think a single "Avada Kedavra" could kill Sauron, I pointed out that Sauron was a God. He said that individually, a wizard is absolutely superior to an orc, I pointed out that Sauron has millions of orcs whilst Voldemort only has a few dozen wizards. We reached no agreement other than to disagree. But what do you guys here at Giant at the Playground think? Who would win in an all-out war, each Dark Lord having the maximum amount of possible resources. To do this, let us say that Mordor materialized in our world, orcs and all, somewhere in Europe near to Britain. So, Sauron or Voldemort?

PS: I have to say, in terms of his name, Sauron is so much cooler than 'Voldemort'

1.) You used alot of big words :smallbiggrin:

2.) I agree this wouldn't even be a fight.... Sauron would crush Voldemort even without any orcs and voldemort had all the death eaters... his a Demi-God and wouldnt be killed by a small beam of green light from a 15 inch stick :smalltongue:

:smalleek: (sorry if I seem byast just i love LotR =D)

[Tor the Fallen]

Wouldn't Voldemort put the Ring on and win? Any powerful wizard could use the ring to his own purposes, including destroying Sauron. Gandalf even said so. The only problem is taking it off.

[edit]
Also, remember how in the later HP books, the spells bounced off non-humanoids, like giants? Some non-humans either have spell resistance (likely), and HP spells are designed with slaying human wizards, mostly. Wasn't there a part where some wizard was like "Dominate Person!" and the thing was like, "I ain't a humanoid, bitch." Can't remember what the case was.

Anyway, Sauron would most definitely be too powerful to be affected by Voldemort's piddling human magic.

[warty goblin]

Wouldn't Voldemort put the Ring on and win? Any powerful wizard could use the ring to his own purposes, including destroying Sauron. Gandalf even said so. The only problem is taking it off.



While Voldermort gaining the Ring and using it to destroy Sauron is a legitimate point, I feel that this is unlikely for the following reasons:

The Ring grants power according to the power of its wearer. Gandalf (also Saruman)is not just a wizard, but a spirit of the same type as Sauron (although apparently less powerful). Galadrial is one of the oldest and most powerful elves in the world, who beheld the light of the Trees and has dwelled in the Undying Lands. Aragorn is the heir of Isildur, the rightful King of Men, and has some serious leadership chops. In Tolkien (and by extension to the Ring) these things count for more than overt magical ability IMO, particularly the age (things around at the dawn of the world are generally more powerful) and leadership. Voldermort by comparison is pretty young, doesn't come from a particularly distinguished bloodline (although for a HP wizard, he's pretty well off) and leads a small group of fractious terrorists. I just don't think that the Ring would enhance his power that much, since most of his power comes from himself and not from the control of others, which is what the Ring was made to do.

Hope this helps.

[dehro]

While Voldermort gaining the Ring and using it to destroy Sauron is a legitimate point, I feel that this is unlikely for the following reasons:

The Ring grants power according to the power of its wearer. Gandalf (also Saruman)is not just a wizard, but a spirit of the same type as Sauron (although apparently less powerful). Galadrial is one of the oldest and most powerful elves in the world, who beheld the light of the Trees and has dwelled in the Undying Lands. Aragorn is the heir of Isildur, the rightful King of Men, and has some serious leadership chops. In Tolkien (and by extension to the Ring) these things count for more than overt magical ability IMO, particularly the age (things around at the dawn of the world are generally more powerful) and leadership. Voldermort by comparison is pretty young, doesn't come from a particularly distinguished bloodline (although for a HP wizard, he's pretty well off) and leads a small group of fractious terrorists. I just don't think that the Ring would enhance his power that much, since most of his power comes from himself and not from the control of others, which is what the Ring was made to do.

Hope this helps.
...mmmh isn't voldemort the last descendant of one of the founders of hogwarts?...even so, still think he'dbe utterly crushed by sauron

again, sauron is a bit more and a bit "other" than just dead or alive, what with being of a non human species of extraterrestrial and divine nature.. a bit out of anyone's league, avada kedavra should not apply.
again once more...ring=sauron, sauron=ring...as long as the ring exists, sauron has always a way back... you could destroy him once, if your willpower was strong enough and your virtue sufficient as to not let the ring's influence tarnish your spirit and purpose...but eventyally you are bound to relax, fall, or simply forget about the ring, that could then plot to return to whatever hell you have banished it's master..and then the thing would start over again..

that is on the global scale..unless we are simply talking of one single battle/confrontation...even so, sauron ftw
after all, all sauron has to do is to break a small peace of wood.. what can Voldemort do without his wand? apart being butt-slapped, that is

[dehro]

His point was that its ridiculous to claim that Voldemort lacks willpower or that Frodo was stronger-willed than him. I think Sauron would win as much the next guy, but I wish people would stop taking the fact that he can't beat a demigod as an excuse to belittle him. Does the fact that a black belt can't dismantle an oncoming tank make him any less dangerous?


sure not..unless you are sitting in the tank... and that's what we are talking about.
the whole point is, can a black belt, awesome as it is(voldemort) defeat a tank?(sauron)


it is not however willpower that determines if one can control the ring.
the ring controls the wearer through his vices and fears...that's the reason wherefore gandalf, galadriel and a few others could be able to use it..they have no, or can control their vices...enough to focus the powers of the ring against even sauron..but even they are not virtuous enough to control it (and their weeknesses) forever...
I doubt the ring would have trouble in finding a way to use voldemort's maliciousness and evilness against himself

[DomaDoma]

The Ring grants power according to the power of its wearer. Gandalf (also Saruman)is not just a wizard, but a spirit of the same type as Sauron (although apparently less powerful). Galadrial is one of the oldest and most powerful elves in the world, who beheld the light of the Trees and has dwelled in the Undying Lands. Aragorn is the heir of Isildur, the rightful King of Men, and has some serious leadership chops. In Tolkien (and by extension to the Ring) these things count for more than overt magical ability IMO, particularly the age (things around at the dawn of the world are generally more powerful) and leadership. Voldermort by comparison is pretty young, doesn't come from a particularly distinguished bloodline (although for a HP wizard, he's pretty well off) and leads a small group of fractious terrorists. I just don't think that the Ring would enhance his power that much, since most of his power comes from himself and not from the control of others, which is what the Ring was made to do.

Hope this helps.

...You know, in Arda, the purity cult would be correct. Power really is diminishing because of diluted bloodlines. That's fairly disturbing.

[DragonTounge]

Sauron, army of orcs and beasts, demi-god, big mace. Nuff said.

[averagejoe]

What can Sauron do in battle while non-corporeal? Does he have force beams or heat rays or something?

What use is the Ring to people who are not Sauron? Again, I ask openly since I haven't read any of the pre-books and in LOTR it doesn't seem to be of any use to Frodo as an offensive weapon. If I were Voldemort, I would trash it instead of trying to unlock it, especially after I'd learned of its history. (If he went to trouble of hunting for the Ring in the first place, you can be sure his research was thorough enough to discover 'People who try to rule the Ring, lose.')

This actually is dealt with in the books, sort of. Gondor, for example, didn't want the ring simply so Sauron couldn't get it, but to use it as a weapon. It's kind of hazy on how this might be accomplished; Tolkien magic is, well, magic, and as such is mysterious and not well defined. However, that said, Sauron's strength seemed to be in his strong will, and in his ability to break/influence the wills of others. Again, most of the time in Tolkien this sort of thing is done like, "And then they contended with each other, and one of them fell," instead of descriptions like, "Then he used Fireball, but the other guy used Heat Ray," so in part you have to take it on faith that there is any direct battle applicibility.

[bugsysservant]

What can Sauron do in battle while non-corporeal? Does he have force beams or heat rays or something?

Well, his non-corporeality was largely a myth generated by the movies, in the books it was strongly hinted by Gollum that Sauron was in human form. Anyway, Sauron at the very least has extensive shape shifting powers, as he turned into the greatest werewolf ever in order to do battle with Huan. So, even bereft of his other powers, Sauron could go ten foot tall wolf, and rip out Voldy's throat. But, yeah, magic is generally ill established in the Tolkien universe.

[Mr. Mud]

Sauron, army of orcs and beasts, demi-god, big mace. Nuff said.

WOW he summed up what i said in 12 words! this guy is amazing :smallcool:

[Serenity]

Demi-god is really the only part of that that strikes me. A big mace in and of itself isn't much of a threat to a wizard, who's got a range advantage. Army of orcs and beasts? HP wizards have a lot of flashy battle spells. I can buy that the Olag-Hai have some resistance to the spells, but even they'd have trouble against Fiendfyre. Certainly regular mooks, especially the orcs, are just cannon fodder. The Nazgul and Sauron himself are where it breaks down for the Death Eaters.

[SmartAlec]

Sauron vs. Voldemort? What's next? David Copperfield vs. Satan?

[Skaroq]

You guys are being unfair! Whatever happened to Darth Sidious joining the fight? (You know, Sauron should have Tripods instead of Oliphaunts and Deinonychuses instead of Wargs.)

[Rogue 7]

Assuming you can apperate around a Nazgul. Exposure to dementors can break a wizard's ability over enough time. Dementors cause depression and a loss of happyness. The Nazgul shatter entire armies through the sheer terror of their presense- a far cry from merely sapping happiness and causing an early frost. It seems reasonable that exposure to a Nazgul would strip one of magic powers much much faster than a dementor would, and that due to the overwhelming horror of their presense, magic would pretty much flee the mind of most people- probably not Voldermort or the really powerful Death Eaters, but I'd bet that the weaker ones would simply fold up and cry, or flee blindly.

Nazgul would probably end up being Uber-Dementors, probably invulnerable to the patronus, but more vulnerable to more conventional tactics. Eowyn beat the Witch-King with a shiny metal stick. Ringwraiths are orders of magnitude better than your average dementor, but there are a lot more dementors, and the nazgul are a bit more vulnerable to conventional weaponry. Slight advantage Nazgul, not really as much as you're saying- after all, Death Eaters deal with Dementors many times, I assume that they're used to the feeling, or at least work through it.


And what about Shelob? I'd say that pretty much no magic could really affect her directly- she's the daughter of a being so evil that even the gods couldn't stop her, and is a clever hunter, well capable of outthinking most opponants.

Hm? Shelob was beaten off by a pissed-off hobbit with a shiny knife. Not to mention what everyone's said about her not really working for Sauron.


Again, wizards are threatened by house elves with kitchen knives, giants and centaurs- all of whom basically depend on some form of physical violence. Orcs own house elves up one side of Morder and down the other- orcs exist to kill and are pretty good at it, particularly the uruks. LOTR trolls (particularly the Olag-Hai) dominate HP trolls and giants, which can be hurt by clubs (book 1) and ordinary arrows (book 5). LOTR trolls are pretty much immune to anything that's not made by elves or Numenorians

Those arrows really just made Grawp mad. They didn't go in deep enough to do any damage. And further, how exactly are LOTR orcs and trolls not vulnerable to all of the above? They still died to conventional weapons fairly easily- there was functionally no magic at the Pelennor Fields or Helm' Deep. The Death Eaters were attacked at that point by a combination of hordes of centaurs shooting arrows, a massive force of Order reinforcements, thestrals and a hippogriff, the remaining defenders of the Castle, AND the few hundred house-elves. They couldn't apparate out, and their magic was countered by the other side. Hardly a one-on-one fight with the House-elves.


I'm not saying that Voldemort's forces would win- they wouldn't, they'd get owned, but mainly because of sheer weight of numbers than any real superiority of the troops. One-on-one, a wizard wins. It's not one-on-one, it's 500 on one, which tips the odds. Honestly, given a choice between 9 fairly powerful wizards and 9 ringwraiths, I'd go with the wizards. Much more flexibility, and all the 9 seem to be able to do is scare stuff.

[Illiterate Scribe]

It's quite simple Voldemort (and his minions) might stand a chance if they weren't to freaking dumb. Also it would help if the Death Eater weren't a bunch of cowards.

Just to play devil's advocate against the vast number of LotR gurus, here, but there's another key factor that should be brought into play here - how much can Voldemort take of current technology?


Ironically enough, probably the best tool he's got is not being an awesome magical force, but it's living in the 21st century. While I admit that it's not really in his character, he could wage a fairly effective Iraqi-insurgency campaign against Sauron, something that would be aided by having the ability to apparate across vast distances - virtual immunity to being caught, provided you were careful. Also, the power of large-scale cold war era nuclear weapons shouldn't be underestimated. I think that the Battle of the Pellenor fields would have been ended fairly quickly with a few large bombs! Also, you might be able to weaponise the 'fire of Mount Doom' - is it the place that has the effect, or the lava there? If it's the latter, then I'm sure some way could be found of targeting Sauron's ring-finger with it.

Also, Dementors = win against army of mooks. Mooks become dementors, which proceed to win against an army of mooks ... etc. One of the few ways of destroying them is by thinking happy thoughts - I'm not sure that Sauron's Empire could really muster anyone capable of doing that :smallamused: .

[DomaDoma]

Eh? Since when were Dementors The Virus? That's not what PoA, Chapter Twelve and HBP, Chapter Nine seem to say about the Kiss.

[Leper_Kahn]

Sauron vs. Voldemort? What's next? David Copperfield vs. Satan?

That is awesome. Can I put this in my signature?

[SmartAlec]

Sure. Spread the word!

[Ditto]

Voldemort can't kill Sauron without destroying the Ring. That's fine. But until Sauron has the Ring, he can't hurt Voldemort. Voldemort can get on just fine without having his horcurxes on hand. Therefore, they're both alive, but Sauron is not at all formidable, and Voldemort 'wins'.

For some reason, no one ever tried using AK against a giant or dragon or such, probably because it would define the limits of AK and that's not so much fun. :smalltongue: Stunners and jinxes bounced off, but the creatures remain vulnerable to hitting weak points for massive damage. ::shrug:: The Death Eaters won't be using AK against armies, so it's largely immaterial.

Dementors spawn based upon the amount of misery/fear they inspire. When you get a couple of thousand of orcs together and tell them they'll never have a nice mudpit to bathe in ever again, that's a lot of misery lotsafast. :smallsmile:

Not that it really makes sense to use against Nazgul, but Death Eaters wouldn't be able to conjure Patronuses. They somehow never got around to practicing the branch of magic that focuses on warm, fuzzy feelings that drive off their allies.

Voldemort has the strongest bloodline left in the Wizarding world, for what it's worth, on the order of Aragorn - the last in a long line of Different Men(TM). But he'd be more inclined to just forget about the Ring, because it is of *no offensive use*. I don't care if he's a demigod or how big his mace is, he's really not much of an individual opponent.

[Greebo]

Voldemort can't kill Sauron without destroying the Ring. That's fine. But until Sauron has the Ring, he can't hurt Voldemort. Voldemort can get on just fine without having his horcurxes on hand. Therefore, they're both alive, but Sauron is not at all formidable, and Voldemort 'wins'.

The ruler of the nine, who keeps the armies of Mordor at his command by simple sheer force of will alone is not "formidable"?

I cannot accept this claim at all.

[warty goblin]

RE: Dementors- why would they follow Voldermort anyway? Sauron could offer them quite a lot more opportunity to cause misery, and they're already shown to not have strong sense of loyalty- they abandoned the Ministry after all. And calling Nazgul "super dementors" is something of an understatement.

RE: Witch-King and battle of Pelennor Fields:
I really don't get this "no magic at Pelennor Fields" argument. Grond, the trenches filled with fire- the control of the freaking weather, all of these are bits of magic. Aragorn's return to Gondor can be seen as magic of a sort, he is after all fulfilling his destiny and rallying the world of men. Even Eowyn killing the Witch-King is a kind of magic, she's about the only person in the world who would have a chance at it, and only her intense courage and devotion to Theoden (and Merry's devotion to her) allows her to do it. I feal safe in saying that no Death Eater possesses this kind of courage -even Bellatrix runs from Dumbledore, and the Lord of the Nazgul makes Dumbledore look like, well, an old man. Tolkien's magic is more subtle and bound up with bloodlines and the world in a very different way- but its still very powerful.

RE: Voldermort's bloodline. Voldermort's bloodline only goes back a thousand years, and he's only descended from one particularly powerful wizard, with a lot of riff-raff in the middle. Aragorn's goes back to (I can't remember exactly) the First Age of the Sun (?) and is descended from a mortal hero and the most fair elf (aka powerful elf) of all time. There's really no comparison.

Also, to add complication to the mix- there's evidence that the Witch-King at least can teleport. After the breaching of the First Gate by Grond, and the appearence of the Rohirrim, he "turned from the gate, and vanished" In that scene he was on a horse, but in the next he's on a fell beast. Not conclusive, but still...

[Nerd-o-rama]

Voldemort can't kill Sauron without destroying the Ring. That's fine. But until Sauron has the Ring, he can't hurt Voldemort. Voldemort can get on just fine without having his horcurxes on hand. Therefore, they're both alive, but Sauron is not at all formidable, and Voldemort 'wins'.

...

But he'd be more inclined to just forget about the Ring, because it is of *no offensive use*. I don't care if he's a demigod or how big his mace is, he's really not much of an individual opponent.
What. What. And what. To all three statements quoted here.

Not all that formidable? Sauron is for all intents and purposes Satan. Most of his power is bound up in the Ring, sure, but he and his incredibly massive amounts of resources still threaten to take over the planet even if he doesn't get it back.

No offensive use? Everyone of even passing power in Middle-Earth seems to be under the impression they could just use the Ring to defeat Sauron and effectively conquer the world themselves. It's just Gandalf and Galdriel know better, as using its power is basically Instant Corruption Do Not Pass Go for them, and they manage to keep everyone else's hands off it. The Hobbits only ever use it to hide with because they're, well, Hobbits.

Not that much of an...you know, I'll just stop here. I'm going to go reread the Silmarillion so I can quote a page on how very wrong this statement is. This might take me a while...

[Lord of the Helms]

I don't care if he's a demigod or how big his mace is, he's really not much of an individual opponent.

Sauron was defeated twice in direct combat. First time, he was up against a half-elven, half-Maiar, all-kickass lady powerful enough to send his master (most powerful being on Arda) to sleep AND the favoured Maiar dog of the god of hunting; the second time he was up against the most powerful mortal (see below for his ancestry) and elven hero (great-grandson of Finwe, high king of the Noldor, and grandson of Fingolfin who had once challenged his master in single combat and didn't do half bad) left in Middle-Earth. Gandalf, for whom throwing lightning and fire left and right is "holding back" and "not fighting their fight for them" explicitly stated that even the weakened, non-ringed Sauron is more powerful than him.



Aragorn's goes back to (I can't remember exactly) the First Age of the Sun (?) and is descended from a mortal hero and the most fair elf (aka powerful elf) of all time. There's really no comparison.

To be more precise: Aragorn is descended from one of the most powerful Maia (Melian, who could keep all of Morgoth's minions, including Sauron, at bay), the highest of the elves that never left Middle-Earth (Thingol), the original high king of the Noldor in Valinor (Finwe) and the two arguably greatest mortal heroes in all of Tolkien's history (Beren and Tuor) - and their strongest contenders for that title, Eärendil and Elendil, were their own descendants and also Aragorn's ancestors. He's got about the most badass bloodline you could find, and definitely counts as "magical".

[Ditto]

Bloodlines: It's a question of comparison, obviously. Middle earth is older in all ways, but as far as relative geneaology goes, Voldemort has the strongest wizarding bloodline there is.

Individual opponent: Sauron can't fight unless he's corporeal, correct? Can he, personally, affect the world? Obviously he has incredible resources at his beck and call, but I think Voldemort has a strong case going already for his ability to handle all of those. When you say, "But even if he does, he can't beat Sauron!!", what does that mean?
Nerd-o-rama: Haven't read the Silmarillion, as I've said. I'm certain you'll find a very good passage demonstrating his badassery - when he's a 10-foot-tall demon-man with a mace. Right now, in LOTR, he's not. He's a floaty flamey eye thing. What can he do?

Ring's usefulness: Everyone on Middle Earth does indeed seem to think the Ring is a powerful weapon. That doesn't mean it's true - and as you point out, Those Who Know Better disagree wholeheartedly. Therefore, Voldemort would eschew its use after having done his homework.

Dementors switching sides: That's not the point. Same thing with the Death Eaters - for the purposes of this discussion, the Dementors are part of Voldemort's army.

Aragorn, Eowyn, and Pippin: Destiny is not magic. There was weather control and fire trenches? I don't recall that.

Does he keep the armies and the Nine and (etc.) under his control by force of will? I was under the impression he was in charge because he was a demigod, and He Said So. Not any sort of mind control. Otherwise, the various units of his forces would be way more coordinated in their efforts than they were - and non of that Orc infighting stuff that allowed Merry and Pippin to escape in TTT.

[Rogue 7]

RE: Dementors- why would they follow Voldermort anyway? Sauron could offer them quite a lot more opportunity to cause misery, and they're already shown to not have strong sense of loyalty- they abandoned the Ministry after all. And calling Nazgul "super dementors" is something of an understatement.

Honestly, I can't think of anything better to call them. Sure, the fell beasts are fairly nasty, but aside from the whole fear thing, what do we really see the Nazgul do besides commanding troops and stabbing hobbits? Nothing that, to me, affects things on a large scale.


RE: Witch-King and battle of Pelennor Fields:
I really don't get this "no magic at Pelennor Fields" argument. Grond, the trenches filled with fire- the control of the freaking weather, all of these are bits of magic. Aragorn's return to Gondor can be seen as magic of a sort, he is after all fulfilling his destiny and rallying the world of men. Even Eowyn killing the Witch-King is a kind of magic, she's about the only person in the world who would have a chance at it, and only her intense courage and devotion to Theoden (and Merry's devotion to her) allows her to do it. I feal safe in saying that no Death Eater possesses this kind of courage -even Bellatrix runs from Dumbledore, and the Lord of the Nazgul makes Dumbledore look like, well, an old man. Tolkien's magic is more subtle and bound up with bloodlines and the world in a very different way- but its still very powerful.

You are correct with the magic. The magic I was referring to was of the "kill you" type, not really the subtle Tolkien magic. The point I was making was that orcs and trolls still died to Gondorians and Rohirrim sticking spears and arrows into them. I think you're selling the Death Eaters a little short on the courage factor- Bellatrix ran from DD because she knew she couldn't beat him. She wouldn't know that about a Nazgul, would she, and honestly, what could a Nazgul (not on a fell beast) do? He can't get close enough to stab her, so what's left?

[WalkingTarget]

Bloodlines: It's a question of comparison, obviously. Middle earth is older in all ways, but as far as relative geneaology goes, Voldemort has the strongest wizarding bloodline there is.

Individual opponent: Sauron can't fight unless he's corporeal, correct? Can he, personally, affect the world? Obviously he has incredible resources at his beck and call, but I think Voldemort has a strong case going already for his ability to handle all of those. When you say, "But even if he does, he can't beat Sauron!!", what does that mean?
Nerd-o-rama: Haven't read the Silmarillion, as I've said. I'm certain you'll find a very good passage demonstrating his badassery - when he's a 10-foot-tall demon-man with a mace. Right now, in LOTR, he's not. He's a floaty flamey eye thing. What can he do?

Ring's usefulness: Everyone on Middle Earth does indeed seem to think the Ring is a powerful weapon. That doesn't mean it's true - and as you point out, Those Who Know Better disagree wholeheartedly. Therefore, Voldemort would eschew its use after having done his homework.

Dementors switching sides: That's not the point. Same thing with the Death Eaters - for the purposes of this discussion, the Dementors are part of Voldemort's army.

Aragorn, Eowyn, and Pippin: Destiny is not magic. There was weather control and fire trenches? I don't recall that.

Does he keep the armies and the Nine and (etc.) under his control by force of will? I was under the impression he was in charge because he was a demigod, and He Said So. Not any sort of mind control. Otherwise, the various units of his forces would be way more coordinated in their efforts than they were - and non of that Orc infighting stuff that allowed Merry and Pippin to escape in TTT.

In the book, it is heavily implied by Gollum that Sauron was corporeal by the time that LotR took place. Giant flaming eye was an invention for the films.

As for whether Voldemort would simply refuse to use the ring, you'd probably have to ask Rowling. From what I know so far of him (only on book 3 unfortunately) he seems to crave power, which the ring provides (Ring of Power being what it is). Some of the people who say that it can be used have a little experience with rings of power (Gandalf, Galadriel, and Elrond have each had rings for at least a few thousand years, for example).

Destiny - for the purposes of stories in the heroic tradition, destiny might as well be magic.

Weather control, fire trenches: once again, see the book (from Helm's Deep through the arrival of Aragorn and company at Minas Tirith, the sky was blotted out by clouds from Mordor, think volcanic ash clouds from Mount Doom, which allowed Sauron's forces to operate normally during the day, which most orcs can't stand).

Ruling by force of will - there isn't really mind control other than possibly his relationship with the Nazgul. Due to his influence over the rings (other than the 3) the wills of the nine were completely subjugated to his. As for his armies, they're with him mostly because they're scared of him and the nine (well, that and they like killing in general). Some dialog from orcs in the books implies that they don't like working for him and that things were "better" before he came back into power.

[WalkingTarget]

Honestly, I can't think of anything better to call them. Sure, the fell beasts are fairly nasty, but aside from the whole fear thing, what do we really see the Nazgul do besides commanding troops and stabbing hobbits? Nothing that, to me, affects things on a large scale.

Well, there is the issue of the point of view that the story takes place in. We don't see what, if anything, else they're doing while off-camera. We know about hobbit-stabbing because the hobbit is the narrator. If there was a chapter from the perspective of some random guy manning the fords at Osgiliath, there might be more detail of what they're capable of doing. One figure being able to inspire fear and panic in an entire company of soldiers can have a great effect on a battle, even if that's all he does.

[bugsysservant]

Individual opponent: Sauron can't fight unless he's corporeal, correct? Can he, personally, affect the world? Obviously he has incredible resources at his beck and call, but I think Voldemort has a strong case going already for his ability to handle all of those. When you say, "But even if he does, he can't beat Sauron!!", what does that mean?
Nerd-o-rama: Haven't read the Silmarillion, as I've said. I'm certain you'll find a very good passage demonstrating his badassery - when he's a 10-foot-tall demon-man with a mace. Right now, in LOTR, he's not. He's a floaty flamey eye thing. What can he do?

All right, you haven't read the Silmarillion. Thats fair. But if the best thing you're basing your arguments one are the movies, I really don't think you know enough to comment on the battle. In the LoTR trilogy it was very strongly hinted by Gollum that Sauron was a (corporeal) man. Peter Jackson made the big flaming eye because it looks cool, not because of any text reference beyond the metaphorical "eye of Sauron"


Does he keep the armies and the Nine and (etc.) under his control by force of will? I was under the impression he was in charge because he was a demigod, and He Said So. Not any sort of mind control. Otherwise, the various units of his forces would be way more coordinated in their efforts than they were - and non of that Orc infighting stuff that allowed Merry and Pippin to escape in TTT.

Again, yes he does. After Frodo destroys the one ring, the armies flee in fear, and the formerly cunning Olog-Hai are hunted down like animals as the control of their master had been broken. The Orcs shared the same fate, despite a superiority in arms and numbers, as they had lost the cohesion that Sauron had provided. Why do you think they fled when the ring was unmade? Had they stayed, they could easily have wiped out the armies of men and gone on to sack Gondor.

And as for the Nazgul, they are pretty much just extensions of Sauron. The point of the nine was that the rings of men had utterly corrupted them, giving Sauron full control of them, body and mind, not that it makes them reasonably entertain his suggestions when he asks them kindly.

Edit: damned ninjas!

[Winterwind]

I just went a bit through my LotR books to find out what the Nazgul are capable of, since I seem to remember they also used bows with cursed arrows during the siege of Minas Tirith. I haven't found this particular part, but I found a couple of interesting passages nevertheless:
- When Faramir returns to Minas Tirith, his company is attacked by the Nazgul, bringing death - so the Nazgul are perfectly capable and willing to engage in combat, not only sow fear.
- There is a confrontation between the Witch King and Gandalf, where the Witch King is perfectly confident that he can take on Gandalf (of course, he has prophecy on his side, but I doubt the prophecy would have predicted he would not be slain by any man if he would have willingly fought opponents beyond his power).
- Grond at first is unable to breach Minas Tirith's gate even after repeated attempts, until the Witch King gives of a powerful scream. He screams three times, each time when Grond hits the gate, and at the third time the gate is shattered. Ergo, he is well capable of some sort of magic.

[bugsysservant]

As I recall, the witch king also ignited his sword, so more magic still.

[SmartAlec]

Right now, in LOTR, he's not. He's a floaty flamey eye thing. What can he do?

Reduce you to a quivering, catatonic bundle of fear with his gaze; or, if that's not enough, burn you to a crisp if you get close.


Ring's usefulness: Everyone on Middle Earth does indeed seem to think the Ring is a powerful weapon. That doesn't mean it's true - and as you point out, Those Who Know Better disagree wholeheartedly.

Do they? Gandalf, Saruman and Galadriel all seem agreed that the Ring's power could be used against Sauron, and indeed could be the only thing that could let a powerful being fight him directly. The two catches are that the Rings give power according to the measure of its' possessor, so whereas Gandalf or Galadriel or even Aragorn could use it to a great extent, it's largely useless in the hands of a hobbit. And the other catch is, whoever drew upon the Ring heavily enough to defeat Sauron would be so corrupted by it, they'd just become a second Dark Lord.


Does he keep the armies and the Nine and (etc.) under his control by force of will? I was under the impression he was in charge because he was a demigod, and He Said So. Not any sort of mind control.

Sauron's sheer force of will and his power of domination - a power that the Ring has too, if one is of sufficient willpower to be able to do so - is one of the most frightening things about him, from the point of view of the world as a whole. The reason the five sentient races of Middle-Earth are referred to as 'The Free Peoples' is that they reject Sauron's control over their destiny. Contrast with Orcs, who as a people have no free will or seperate destiny of their own. That's what Sauron wants, deep down; he wants that level of control on everyone.

[Ditto]

Okay, so the Witch-King has a +1 Flaming longsword and Inspire Confidence. The Head Nazgul is a bard? :smallconfused: Hehehe...

The Nazgul are certainly capable of getting involved in the melee - and why not, when they're so certain of their invulnerability? I don't think anyone's said they're ineffectual units, just that they're pretty much just awesome, terrifying melee units. Which is not-so-much of a threat to wizards. And as someone pointed out, it's not cowardice to run from a superior opponent (Bellatrix vs. Dumbledore).

The Nazgul were obviously directly controlled by Sauron, certainly. From what I hear about the Olag-hai, it sounds like he invested himself rather carefully in developing the otherwise unremarkable base creature, so that's understandable. As far as the armies go, I think it's much more of a, "Holy Crap! Did you just see our impregnable fortress implode, immediately followed by the screaming rage and death throes of Fearless/ful Leader? We're screwed! Panic!"

EDIT:
Reduce you to a quivering, catatonic bundle of fear with his gaze; or, if that's not enough, burn you to a crisp if you get close.He can do that? Really?


...just become a second dark lord.
Wait, is *that* all? Powerful beings use it uberpowerfully, but become evil as a consequence? Voldemort can tear spoon up with the Ring, then... and he's already got the whole 'Dark Lord' thing going! :smallsmile:

[Greebo]

EDIT: He can do that? Really?
Yes, really.

Read the books. The scene from the movies where Pippin holds the palantir and almost gets his mind fried doesn't begin, IMO, to convey just how bad that action was for Pippin. There was real concern on the part of Gandalf after just that few minutes that Peregrin Took's mind would have been totally broken.

As I said earlier, Sauron is practically a God. He had to invest himself heavily into the ring to be defeatable at all, and even in the destruction of the ring, Sauron would never *die*, just be reduced to a very minor malevolent spirit.

Voldy, on the other hand, had to work awfully hard to create an artificial life support system (horcruxes).

[bugsysservant]

The Nazgul were obviously directly controlled by Sauron, certainly. From what I hear about the Olag-hai, it sounds like he invested himself rather carefully in developing the otherwise unremarkable base creature, so that's understandable. As far as the armies go, I think it's much more of a, "Holy Crap! Did you just see our impregnable fortress implode, immediately followed by the screaming rage and death throes of Fearless/ful Leader? We're screwed! Panic!"

The orcs couldn't see any of the things that died/fell except the black gate. The Nazgul and Sauron were near Mount Doom, or Barad Dur, well out of sight, and nothing else died directly from the destruction of the ring. Are you really telling me that the orcs fled because they saw a gate fall down? Aragorn had less than six thousand men. Sauron had over 60,000 soldiers, many of whom were massive Olog-Hai. There is no way that an army would flee from a battle where they outnumber the enemy by more than 10 to 1 unless something is going on, such as the sudden vanishing of Sauron's control over his armies.

[SmartAlec]

As far as the armies go, I think it's much more of a, "Holy Crap! Did you just see our impregnable fortress implode, immediately followed by the screaming rage and death throes of Fearless/ful Leader? We're screwed! Panic!"

Blast it, see what you've done? You've made me quote the books! :smallredface:


"From all [Sauron's] policies and webs of fear and treachery, from all his strategems and wars his mind shook free; and throughout his realm a tremor ran, his slaves quailed, and his armies halted, and his captains suddenly steerless, bereft of will, wavered and despaired. For they were forgotten."

- Return of the King, 'Mount Doom'

That's the point at which Sauron suddenly becomes aware of Frodo putting on the Ring in Mount Doom, but before the Ring actually goes into the fire. It describes how dependent the armies of Mordor are on their Lord's driving will, and what happens to them when they don't have it.

Edit: 'His Captains' probably refers to Orcish captains rather than the Nazgul, as the Nazgul's immediate response to this turn of events is to break off from the fight and make a beeline for Mount Doom, rather than quail and halt.


He can do that? Really?

Probably, yup. The gaze-o'-fear, someone else already mentioned. Burning people to a crisp was very much Sauron's 'thing' back in the day when he was fighting the Last Alliance, and it's how - in the books - he killed Elendil. Even if he's lacking a physical form these days, that doesn't necessarily mean he can't burn people to a crisp, especially as you pointed out that he's a flaming eye.

[warty goblin]

Okay, so the Witch-King has a +1 Flaming longsword and Inspire Confidence. The Head Nazgul is a bard? :smallconfused: Hehehe...

The Nazgul are certainly capable of getting involved in the melee - and why not, when they're so certain of their invulnerability? I don't think anyone's said they're ineffectual units, just that they're pretty much just awesome, terrifying melee units. Which is not-so-much of a threat to wizards. And as someone pointed out, it's not cowardice to run from a superior opponent (Bellatrix vs. Dumbledore).

The Nazgul were obviously directly controlled by Sauron, certainly. From what I hear about the Olag-hai, it sounds like he invested himself rather carefully in developing the otherwise unremarkable base creature, so that's understandable. As far as the armies go, I think it's much more of a, "Holy Crap! Did you just see our impregnable fortress implode, immediately followed by the screaming rage and death throes of Fearless/ful Leader? We're screwed! Panic!"

EDIT: He can do that? Really?


Wait, is *that* all? Powerful beings use it uberpowerfully, but become evil as a consequence? Voldemort can tear spoon up with the Ring, then... and he's already got the whole 'Dark Lord' thing going! :smallsmile:

Nazgul can do more than whack things with a sword- their very presence is enough to crush the will of their enemies- even the defenders of Minas Tirith who were fighting for their homes and lives were broken by the shriek of the Nazgul. The Lord of the Nazgul rode into the gate of Minas Tirith alone, with a small army arrayed before him, and only Gandalf could dare to stand before him.

As I said before it is arguable that the Witch-King possesses some form of teleportation. Personally I don't think he does, but then I don't actually think he needs it. As said earlier, they seem to be able to throw darts from their fell beasts (infered from Faramirs injury, which was explicitly stated to not have been caused by the Nazgul, otherwise he would have died of it pretty much instantly)

Troll wise, most LOTR trolls seem to pretty much completely resistant to most forms of damage- the cave troll (which would be significantly weaker than an Olag-Hai) that attacked the fellowship in Moria completely ignored Boromir hitting it with a sword (so hard that he chipped the blade IIRC) but could be injured by Sting. Similarly the Olag-Hai charge through soldiers at the Battle of the Black Gate, but can be hurt by Pippin's Westerness sword. Since the Death Eaters seem remarkably short on elven and Numenerean weapons, there's not much that they can do there, I suppose something like the Sword of Gryffindor might work, but nobody in the Potterverse really has what it takes to go 1 on 1 with a troll (wizards don't really do that sort of thing much).

Again, Voldermort is powerful in a modern make things go 'splody wizard way, which has nothing to do with LOTR magic and power, which is more subtle and works by destiny and willpower and ability to command instead of waving a stick and screaming quasi-latin phrases as fast as possible. Voldermort's power of command is dubious at best, he has relatively few actual followers, who constantly fight and try to destroy each other. Put another way, if the Ring amplifies the user's ability to command others, than it might get Voldermort up to around 100 Death Eaters instead of his twenty or so. Sauron can on his own dominate countless orcs and many human nations, with the Ring he could easily command the rest.

Voldermort lacks the ability to dominate with the Ring because his power is so tied up in 'splody stuff, not in things like moving nations to war (Gandalf) or turning aside evil and forseeing the future (Elrond and Galadrial).

Finally one more point. Although flashy and powerful, HP magic still takes time- not much but some. In close quarters a wizard will die to an orc quite quickly, by the time that the wizard can get avada kedavera articulated or thought, they will be short a hand or possibly a head. To go back to my food denial scheme all the orcs need do is store the food in tight spaces- lots of rooms about 10' - 10' or slightly bigger. Put two orcs (or more) in each room, give them swords or axes. Cover the floor in something that makes noise when you walk on it- say leaves. As soon as a wizard apperates into the room, they will land on the leaves, making noise and allerting the orcs. Mufliato won't work because they can't cast it until after they show up. Even if their invisible (and the implication is that most wizards can't make themselves invisible without a cloak, and most cloaks are flawed in some way), the orcs know that they are there and sound the alarm- then can jump the wizard. Even if nine times out of ten the wizard gets away, and half of those times does so with food, that remaining 10th of the time will result in one less enemy for Sauron, and Death Eaters, unlike orcs, are in rather limited numbers.

[Ditto]

Response time: Wizards cast at the speed of thought when it counts. A nonverbal Protego spell is Harry's best friend. Swinging a sword is definitely more awkward then thinking while holding a wand. You won't get off any curses at that speed, but there's a host of ways to not get hurt - including the old standby, apparation.

Fooding: Vanishing charm still works. That's just without getting into clever combinations of things, like distractions and freezing the whole room and turning them into wheat and eating them. I'd stick to the battle - they don't have as much time to plan. :smallwink:

Good quote on the Sauron's will thing. I'd still argue that you don't need to see Mount Doom explode to know Sauron went belly up, but the quote wins. :smallsmile:

Nazgul scare the living spoon out of their enemies, and rightfully so. That's not magic, that's being an undying avatar of evil on a giant flying dinosaur.

LOTR creatures: Those trolls and other thingies weren't hurt by regular swords... but were by magic weapons. Gee, how are wizards going to get some magic to hurt the trolls?

I'm very okay with LOTR magic being important in destiny and persuasion. Very powerful stuff, when you read it that way (which I think is stretching it just a tiny bit), but that doesn't change the fact that it's not useful in battle as such.

That halfling who got his mind near burrowed out... he was holding an evil artifact linked directly to Sauron's mind, wasn't he? Might that have been why his brain was so vulnerable? It's not like Sauron didn't think mindcrushing people at range was a good idea before - why wouldn't he do that as a matter of course?

It might just be me, but I think Sauron had to work a hell of a lot harder to create an artifact that made him uberbattley and ubermental than Voldemort did to make some hidey-holes for his soul.

[warty goblin]

Swinging a sword is more awkward than thinking in magic? I seriously doubt it. From simply holding a sword in front of meI can execute a pretty basic yet hard to avoid and almost certainly fatal chop in under a second- and do so almost entirely instinctually- and I'm neither that strong nor that skilled with swords. We already know from the cruciatus curse that wizards can't cast spells when in significant pain, so all it takes is one hit doing enough damage to distract the wizard, then the second can kill- I think a severed hand or deep thigh wound should qualify, neither of which are that hard to get against an unarmed (in sword terms, wands parry very badly) opponent. Even apperation takes time, while the wizard is thinking about where to go and getting their magic on, some orc's just planted six inches of steel through their stomach.

RE: Trolls. We know that HP giants are pretty resistant to magic (Book 5 proves even half giants are, Yay Hagrid!) and LOTR trolls are substantially tougher- again the Moria cave troll being completely impervious to a hit from Boromir,who is generally pretty good at hitting things. Grawp is at least pained by arrows, which would have far less power than Boromir's sword strike (English longbows could shoot an arrow through an oak church door ~3 inches, a very good swordsman (like say Boromir) can cut through 13 inches of plywood with a one-handed stroke), suggesting that LOTR trolls are substantially tougher than HP giants, since I'm fairly sure Grawp would have noticed somebody whacking a foot deep hole in his leg. If stunners bounce off of a half-giant, imagine what it takes to make something like an LOTR troll notice? Magic weapon supply wise, wizards can't make them, only HP goblins know how and they ain't telling, so wizards have a definite shortage in the magic sword department (I'm assuming transparency between HP magic weapons and LOTR magic weapons which if anything is an advantage to HP, since LOTR magic weapons are really powerful things).

[Skjaldbakka]

It might just be me, but I think Sauron had to work a hell of a lot harder to create an artifact that made him uberbattley and ubermental than Voldemort did to make some hidey-holes for his soul.

Actually, Sauron was already uber before making the rings. The whole rings scheme was mostly to gain control of the elves, whom he had failed to corrupt with persuasion alone, as elves are really bad-ass in LotR. Even then it failed, as the elves saw through his trickery and took off the rings when he forged the one ring.

[Rowanomicon]

Response time: Wizards cast at the speed of thought when it counts. A nonverbal Protego spell is Harry's best friend. Swinging a sword is definitely more awkward then thinking while holding a wand. You won't get off any curses at that speed, but there's a host of ways to not get hurt - including the old standby, apparation.

I hate to break it to you but Wizards aren't actually that uber. I mean, yeah, they are quite powerful. Certainly one wizard would be able to take down a dozen orcs, but not all Sauron's troops are cannon fodder (and even the ones that are fodder are plentiful enough to do some damage). Certainly Sauron himself, Saruman, and the Nine are not cannon fodder. To paraphrase wart goblin: Try casting your spells while you're stabbed in the face.


Fooding: Vanishing charm still works. That's just without getting into clever combinations of things, like distractions and freezing the whole room and turning them into wheat and eating them. I'd stick to the battle - they don't have as much time to plan. :smallwink:

From what I know about HP magic (I've read the first 6 books and part of the last one) it's not very long range usually (if at all). This means you'd have to apperate before you could cast any spells. I think the point was that, yes, the Wizards would be able to get food, but some of them (even if it's a small amount) would die in the process plus they'd be hard pressed to get enough food. Also by controlling where the food is Sauron and his forces could control where the Wizards attack and thereby be ready for them.


Nazgul scare the living spoon out of their enemies, and rightfully so. That's not magic, that's being an undying avatar of evil on a giant flying dinosaur.

Yeah, Nazgul own. I, personally, interpreted their fear inducing ability to be somewhat supernatural. However if it is not then that means that the sheer thought of the power they wield makes seasoned soldiers cry and wet themselves. Yeah, they'll be pushovers in a battle against Voldemort...


LOTR creatures: Those trolls and other thingies weren't hurt by regular swords... but were by magic weapons. Gee, how are wizards going to get some magic to hurt the trolls?

Well I have to say congratulation. You've done Voldemort well. He can hurt some of Sauron's minions.


I'm very okay with LOTR magic being important in destiny and persuasion. Very powerful stuff, when you read it that way (which I think is stretching it just a tiny bit), but that doesn't change the fact that it's not useful in battle as such.

Except for what it's the destiny of who wis a fight...

How many Death Eaters are there? I'm under the impression that there's aren't that many, but I could be wrong.

I almost feel guilt about this battle because it's so one sided. I don't want to seem like a fanboy, but seriously Voldemort hasn't a hope.

[Ditto]

Yes, wizards die when you hack them. But how did you end up 2 feet away from him, anyway? And a reflexive "Ack ack ack!" Protego takes just as much (or rather, as little) no-time-at-all as a sword stroke. They're not indestructable, but you have to get near them first.

HP weaponry isn't about casting spells at seige weapon distance, but you have enough range to thwart melee combatants. (Not that you're using individual hexes against an army!) Between Transfiguration and apparating, archers will be hard pressed to hit you. Worst comes to worst, you surround yourself in a solid bubble of something impressive and alchemical and watch as they try to hack it open with the pointy sticks. (And all of the pointy stick ones are cannon fodder, as far as wizards are concerned. Fiendfyre is a great way to let magic loose and see what happens to the poor fleshie orcs. But don't forget to bring marshmellows.

LOTR trolls have no evidence of magic resistance - to the contrary, they seem perfectly vulnerable to magic weapons. Since there is no HP-style magic in LOTR to compare vis-a-vis HP magic/magic weapons, I fail to see why magic wouldn't have the same effect as a magic weapon - namely, bypassing a trolls 'DR'. In HP, they're magical creatures. In LOTR, orcs and trolls and halflings and dwarves are just creatures with varying degrees of toughness, and not inherently magical. And opening a hole in the ground beneath them works, too. This demonstrates not just that 'Congratulations, you can hurt some of Sauron's minions', but that they can hurt nearly *all* of Sauron's minions aside from the Nazgul (and that's a maybe), and possibly other singular entities I don't have on the tip of my tongue.

I'm not saying the Nazgul are pushovers. They're just not win buttons. They're scary and invulnerable to physical weapons, but we can't say they're immune to magic (Gandalf's shiny-light beam suggests they are, in fact) and... what sort of power do they weild?

There are rather few Death Eaters - he's looking at dozens, on the outside edge. They're just the generals, though. There are a number of other wizards who are actively on his team (such as Fenrir), but don't quite qualify for full membership.

Saruman is not on Sauron's team.

[warty goblin]

Where to do we have evidence of protego stopping anything but minor spells? I don't see why it would stop an arrow, which is generally a quite different sort of thing than a spell. The most we know it can do to people is stagger them back slightly, which isn't gonna save a wizard from a spear thrust.

Magic weapons work great against trolls, but that's a very different thing than magic working on trolls. Take your example of Wormtail blowing up the street (which I think he could only do because he hit a gas line, but I'm not sure, since it seems definitately out of his power range). What's lethal about this not the magic, but the force and schrapnel flying everywhere, which is gona do exactly nothing to a troll. We already know that stunners bounce off of HP giants, and I fail to see why a LOTR troll should be weaker against them since they are generally tougher.

Voldermort's allies- how long do you think they'll stick around when things start to get rough? They're not exactly the most loyal of creatures and Sauron can offer far more attractive packages for being an evil underling- he's got all those different lands that need ruling after all. Within very short order Voldermort would end up stripped of all but his most loyal (aka deranged) followers.

[WalkingTarget]

That halfling who got his mind near burrowed out... he was holding an evil artifact linked directly to Sauron's mind, wasn't he? Might that have been why his brain was so vulnerable? It's not like Sauron didn't think mindcrushing people at range was a good idea before - why wouldn't he do that as a matter of course?

The palantíri weren't evil artifacts. They were made by the elves and seven were given to the Númenoreans before the fall. Elendil (you know, the guy who defeated Sauron alongside Gil-galad at the end of the Second Age) saved them and brought them with him and set them at various places in the realm to aid in communication/observation. They easily allow mental communication between people gazing into them, but they can, by force of will, be used to view just about anywhere one wishes. Sauron obtained the stone from Minas Ithil when it was taken (and then became Minas Morgul, for those who have only seen the films, that's the spooky city in RotK that Frodo and Sam climb to avoid). The others became dangerous to use after that because Sauron could, and indeed did, use them to show users only what he wanted them to see (not elaborated in the film, but that's one of the major contributions to Denethor's despair, Sauron didn't try to mentally dominate Denethor but just fed him misleading/depressing information). Pippen was almost broken just by Sauron asking who he was and then telling him what to say to Saruman. The near-mindcrushing was almost incidental from just being in contact with Sauron, not any native effect of the stone itself. Being questioned by him in person would probably have a similar, if not more dramatic, effect just by itself. The fact that Aragorn was able to wrest control of his away from Sauron and view what he wished is just another example of how much a badass Aragorn is supposed to be (again, scene/tone changed in the film).

[Greebo]

Ditto have you actually read the LotR series or just seen the flashy movies that aren't very good on real history?

[Ditto]

I have read LOTR, but not the pre-books. I forget some details about the trilogy, which have been mostly addressed, but I know next to nothing about the pre-book that seem to be where most people are pulling the Sauron-based evidence from.

...details such as the nature of the palantiri. You're right, of course. Mindcrush points to Sauron. Having a directish psychic access to his mind can't be good for anyone.

LOTR trolls are physically tougher than HP trolls. That *still* doesn't say anything about magic resistance, even when you state it a second time. Why would *anything* have developed a magic resistance, when there isn't magic floating around in LOTR willy-nilly? Basically ALL of the folks in Sauron's army are mundane creatures, which can be cut and stabbed just like anything else. Trolls take more stabbing, but they're not magical.

Protego is a physical force as well as a magical one. It rebuffs Hermione and Ron from coming to blows in the Tent of Holding in the 7th book, and knocks Snape across the room in the 6th book when Harry thinks he's going to hex him. Just two examples I have off the top of my head. *IF* - if if if - an orc somehow gets that close, he'll be knocked back enough for the wizard to regroup.

Vs. threads don't allow for switching sides already! If there's another evil overlord in town, it's perfectly possible for Death Eaters to switch sides. (The Dark Mark lets Voldemort find them wherever they are, though, so it's still not a terrific idea.) That can work both ways, of course - it's been established that not all of Suaron's armies are big fans. Voldemort is all about allowing different races to live together (that is, separately >.>) more or less freely, under his rule. So long as you're not against him, he's pretty chill. :smallsmile:

[Wizzardman]

LOTR trolls are physically tougher than HP trolls. That *still* doesn't say anything about magic resistance, even when you state it a second time. Why would *anything* have developed a magic resistance, when there isn't magic floating around in LOTR willy-nilly? Basically ALL of the folks in Sauron's army are mundane creatures, which can be cut and stabbed just like anything else. Trolls take more stabbing, but they're not magical.
Why would centaurs and giants have developed magic resistance? Were their ancestors getting regularly so blasted with spells that only the naturally resistant survived to breed? How did their species survive when most of its members are blasted to pieces at an early age?
And Morgoth forgot to add in 'magic resistance' when he re-engineered trolls and orcs from ents and elves? They're already pretty bloody magical, what with being 'horrendous stone beings made manifest' and 'mutilated descendants of the most overpowered race on the planet'.
I think the point you're making is that HP species are inherently magical because they've developed on a highly magical world. To be fair, orcs and trolls must also be highly magical, as both originate from highly magical species, and both have been magically shaped by Morgoth and Sauron to be tough-as-nails killing machines. They've gotta have at least the magical resistance that they're base races had, and elves were fairly well-defended in that regard.
For that matter, the Nazgul were sorcerers themselves, and many of them are heavily enchanted (such as the Witch-King, who was really only capable of being killed because Merry stabbed him with the barrow-wight blade while his back was turned--and the blade only worked because it was made by the ancient enemies of Angmar specifically to disrupt the magic of the Witch-King); how effective are a group of wizards going to be against them? Or a balrog, for that matter?


Protego is a physical force as well as a magical one. It rebuffs Hermione and Ron from coming to blows in the Tent of Holding in the 7th book, and knocks Snape across the room in the 6th book when Harry thinks he's going to hex him. Just two examples I have off the top of my head. *IF* - if if if - an orc somehow gets that close, he'll be knocked back enough for the wizard to regroup.
All right, fine, Harry Potter can knock an orc across the room. The average Death Eater, however, is not as skilled as Harry Potter, and the average Orc is not bothered by being knocked across the room (what with, you know, being a horrendously tough, axe-wielding maniac). Keep in mind, there's more than just one orc per room--even if the wizard knocks one charging orc out the way, or maybe two, I'm not placing bets on the wizard getting three or more. Also, keep in mind, it takes a few seconds to recover after apparating--particularly if you're apparating to a place you've never been before. If the room is small enough, those seconds are all the orcs need.


Vs. threads don't allow for switching sides already! If there's another evil overlord in town, it's perfectly possible for Death Eaters to switch sides. (The Dark Mark lets Voldemort find them wherever they are, though, so it's still not a terrific idea.) That can work both ways, of course - it's been established that not all of Suaron's armies are big fans. Voldemort is all about allowing different races to live together (that is, separately >.>) more or less freely, under his rule. So long as you're not against him, he's pretty chill. :smallsmile:
Even if we don't allow switching sides, there are things to keep in mind:
1. Voldemort is Captain Racism. Voldemort only wants creatures on his side if they can help him when the war, and honestly plans on betraying them later, as he is a Mage Supremicist. I don't think he'd really go for hanging out with orcs or trolls if he could avoid it. And freely is a matter of opinion (see house elves). Voldemort is not chill about nonhumans. Voldemort wants all nonmages stamped under his boot heel.
2. Voldemort only managed to acquire the Giants and the Dementors by promising them things they want (i.e. veangeance, food, etc). What exactly can Voldemort promise orcs and trolls, who would cease to exist at Sauron's whim and who have no real individuality or intelligence of their own but that which Sauron grants them? Sorry, but they can't change sides. Its not physically possible.

[Ditto]

Elves are immune to magic now? And orcs are the thrice-damned degenerate devolution of elves... I wouldn't be surprised if they're less than elfy at this point. ...actually, I think they're pretty clearly less than elfy. Also, LOTR is not a highly magical world (at least not in the same way HP is - what, they're immune to destiny and prescience now?), so there wouldn't be any such evolution.

Magic resistance is not evolution as such, it's inherent. You have natural creatures, magical creatures, dark creatures, and more... all of which have separate origins. Dark creatures are made of Mean-spiritedness... corporeal nastiness. Likewise, a Kneazle and a cat are outwardly very similar, but one of the two doesn't have a preternatural ability to unerringly sense deceit. Magical creature. Either way, there's no evidence of magic immunity, and there is evidence of a magic vulnerability. Hence, I suspect they might be vulnerable to magic...

Likewise, I'll be glad to grant that the Nazgul are immune to magical attacks when there is proof that they are, and evidence against their (demonstrated) magical vulnerability.

Apparition is instantaneous. If you've seen the fifth movie - remember the way Fred and George apparate in Grimmauld Place? That's what apparating is like. ::pop:: ::pop:: No delay to speak of. If it were more like that ridiculous black and white cloud thing, then it would be even easier. Protego isn't supposed to hurt anyone, just keep them at bay for half a second, one time, until the wizard freezes the room, or leaves, or wraps himself in a bubble of steel, or a bubble of force, or stuns them, or... wait, why was he in a small room again? Can we drop the food stealing thing? If you're forced to starve the wizards, then you've admitted direct confrontation isn't really working for you.

Voldemort is perfectly willing to use races to his own ends, yeah. And it's been stated previously that not all orcs and goblins are happy with the current state of their servitude under Sauron, so the army is *not* completely under Sauron's thrall. Ditto to the non-instant communication item. And the not-ceasing-to-exist when Sauron went splat. Orcs are people too.

[LordVader]

I really don't see Sauron being affected in the slightest by any magic Voldemort can whip up, though. He's basically a god.

And Apparating is essentially running. You can run as much as you want, but it isn't going to win battles. And the spell takes time to cast.

As far as LOTR orcs go, no, they don't have feelings. They have no choice but to obey Sauron, as far as I can tell.

[Eita]

This debate is still going on? For the love of...

Anyways, LordVader is right on Apparating. It's like Planeswalkers and Planeswalking. The spell effect is instantaneous, but it takes time to actually cast.

[LordVader]

In which you will have many arrows flying at you.

Seriously, Sauron and Voldie are worlds apart on power level, and Sauron's supporters easily trump the Death Eaters as well, through sheer numbers if nothing else. I doubt many Death Eaters would stand and fight the Nine, however.

[Rowanomicon]

If you're forced to starve the wizards, then you've admitted direct confrontation isn't really working for you.

OK, it's fine with me if you want to be wrong and say Voldemort would win, but what you just said is a logical fallacy. Just because Sauron can whoop Voldemort in many different ways doesn't make any of them less potent. he could destroy Voldemort in an all our confrontation. He could, if he wants to use such a strategy, force Voldemorts minions to attack certain spots where they will be vulnerable in order to get the food they need to survive. In other words Sauron can beat Voldemort at least six ways from sunday and each one o them will quite handily deal with this lesser "Dark lord."

Seriously, that's like saying that if a black belt chooses to shoot someone they've admitted that they can't take them in hand-to-hand combat. No, he can still kick the Sh!t out of the guy, he just decided to shoot him because it's quicker and easier.

Also no one said that Nazgul are inherently immune to magic, howver, they are all fairly powerful sorcerers (for argument's sake let say they're about equal to the average Death Eater) especially the Witch King (who, in my opinion, would be a match for Voldemort in magical ability alone).
One should also note that being the greatest and most direct servants of Sauron his will (remember this is particularly potent magic in LOTR especially since he's basically a god) protects and enhances them.

I hardly understand how you can say that a world with immortal, and magically powerful, elves and what amounts to divine entities walking among men is not a highly magical setting.
I mean, "highly magical" is a relative term, but still think any argument that HP magic overpowers Middle Earth magic a a quite futile one.

Are you saying that Middle Earth Trolls aren't magical? They turn to stone in the sunlight (see The Hobbit). Is that natural? Go ahead and say yes, I wont even bother countering the argument because it's so obviously wrong.

Olog-Hai and Uruk-Hai are both more powerful than their predecessors and, I would think, somewhat more resistant to magic.

At any rate Orcs and Trolls are hardly natural being, that is to say nothing of Ologs and Uruks.

I would say that if you want your arguments to be air tight work form the books and not the movies. That goes for both series.

I don't particularly remember any "bubbles of Force" in HP, but if they were there please let me know as that would mean that instead of being completely whooped Voldemort and his followers would be, well they'd still be completely whooped, but at least they force Sauron to pull out slightly bigger guns.

Saruman is on Sauron's team. He may not be the most loyal follower as he does have his own aspirations of greatness, but he has been bet to Sauron's will and he fights for/along side Sauron. Saying that he doesn't count as on Sauron's team would also mean that many of Voldemort's followers weren't on his team as they are not entirely loyal either. of course I can see why even that exchange would be worth it for Voldemort's sides as Saruman himself would be more than a match for Voldemort.

Why don't Vs threads allow the recruitment of the opposing side's minion? Defection is possibly in almost any battle.

[Ditto]

You're right about the starving-is-the-last-option thing; I misspoke. I meant to say that it wasn't really a strategy I expected to maintain relevance in a vs. thread, since it's really more about the two teams' extraordinary abilities, specifically in battle, that are interesting to the debate. Ability to move impedimenta around in back areas and keep troops fed isn't really material, IMO. It's a perfectly legitimate route for dealing with a wizard uprising in the backyard of your Middle Earth, if that's what we want to work on.

Same thing with switching sides. If we want to get into that, it's fine... but why not keep it to the (nominally) known factors. Death Eaters and Orcs alike have never had the opportunity to defect to another dark lord, so we don't have anything to extrapolate from, directly. Moving on! :smallsmile:

Both Sauron and Voldemort are essentially immortal, can be killed by a confluence of fate and collecting the Plot Coupons, etc. I got it. No one's trying to kill Sauron. At least, not since the Ring is either completely untouchable since Voldemort will burst into flamey mindcrush just by looking at it, or else he can kick some major butt with it (with the cost being he falls and becomes another dark lord himself... oh, wait.). Depends on who you talk to. But leaving that aside, too.

People have *repeatedly* said the Nazgul are immune to magic. I'm glad it's dying now. I'm also glad to hear they're powerful sorcerers - can someone define that? Or give a reason why their skills or power levels are comparable to Voldemort, or any competent HP wizard? As I understand it, thus far the full description of their abilities is: "They were powerful sorcerers." :smallconfused:

Highly magical world: You're right, of course - it's all very relative in what you call 'high'. I think LOTR is much more 'high fantasy' than high magic, since so-called 'vulgar' magic (to use the Mage: The Ascension term, indicating magic with a tangible display and/or effect) is rather scarce and HP high magic, but low(-er) fantasy for the same/opposite reasons. It doesn't dispel the issue of inherently magical vs. non-magical creatures. Trolls from The Hobbit certainly qualify; again, I'm misremembering terms and lumping all 'Big, stupid, smashy siege weapon creatures' under the word 'Troll'. Orcs are not natural, because they've been (basically) genetically engineered as perversions of elves (again, if I remember correctly). Uruks and Olags being Orc 2.0s just means they're sturdier perversions of elves. You don't build magic resistance into an upgrade unless they're going to be facing magic-weilding enemies, right? LOTR doesn't have armies of Men rife with those.

Protego would technically qualify as a bubble of force, but summoning any other material has the same practical effect. Apparating is not even primarily for running away, but for moving around the battlefield with terrifying facility, way faster than any swordsman can charge or archer can draw a bead and fire on. Any nonverbal magic, you might liken an immediate action in D&D terms. That's not going to do you for offense, but Protego and apparition are/can be wordless and have been demonstrably cast as reactions and are really all you need, to start.

[Rowanomicon]

I'd like to point out that while Voldemort might not care about being corrupted to evil (since he's already evil) he would also be corrupted, by The Ring, to the will of The Ring (ie. Sauron).

Also even if Voldemort somehow managed to use The Ring against Sauron Sauron cannot be permanently defeated so long as The Ring still exists.
Voldemort would not be able to destroy The Ring even after a moment of contact with it; he certainly wouldn't be able to destroy it after having it long enough to use it.

[Leper_Kahn]

The whole rings scheme was mostly to gain control of the elves, whom he had failed to corrupt with persuasion alone, as elves are really bad-ass in LotR.

http://bighugelabs.com/photos/ffd9bed573ea522cce1ecd1658e40087/motivator9578637

In other news I still don't get why this isn't resolved. There is no hint of a possibility in my mind that Voldemort could win vs. Sauron in ANY case.

On the topic of high magic, many things that are magical in LotR just don't look like they are magical. For example in the first movie/book when the Fellowship is given the cloaks they are said to, "Protect the wearer for unwanted eyes." Or something to that effect. There is not a single example of a cloak turning the company invisible or anything similar, but that doesn't make it any less magical. Maybe Sam and Frodo would have been found without the cloaks.

I think the reason that people might not find Tolkien's works magical is because it isn't blatantly magical as HP and other modern writings are. Until very recently (In the scheme of things) magic existed in the minds of many people. Romans wore bullas, or charms, around their necks until they were of age to protect themselves from the "evil eye." Witch hunts were huge part of European history. People called Fae "The Good Folk" because they were afraid of insulting something that didn't exist. People sold magic potions out of the back of wagons to cure ailments of the body. People thought toasting with water makes you lose your soul to a Greek god. Words were said (And still are sometimes said) over the dead to make them have a smooth transition into the next world.

If the magic of human perception existed in the real world, then even the mention of a wizard becomes high magic. I think the correlation isn't a difference in writing styles it is a difference in time periods. All it used to take to be a wizard was the performance of simple magic tricks and a persuasive personality.

[Rowanomicon]

In other news I still don't get why this isn't resolved. There is no hint of a possibility in my mind that Voldemort could win vs. Sauron in ANY case.


I just thought everyone should read that one more time.

[Skjaldbakka]

In the books, there are two instances of the elven cloaks granting invisibilty. When Aragorn and co. are tracking the orcs, and encounter the Rohirrim, they appear in their midst, marveling at how the Rohirrim failed to see them.

Similarly, when Frodo and Sam are captured by Faramir's rangers, it is only after they allowed themselves to be seen.

There is also the scene at the Black Gate from the movie, but I don't recall if that was in the books or not.


As for flashy magic, Gandalf did call down a firestorm to defend the Fellowship against a horde of Wargs while they were traveling from Rivendell to the Caradhras.

[Hranat]

I don't think Voldy would be able to destroy the Ring.
The good guys were awesomely lucky to find it, if Bilbo wouldn't have found the Ring in Gollems cave, it would be picked up by 'a more likely creature imaginable.'
Or perhaps it would still be there for another century. Plus, it was a combination of Gandalf luck and Bilbo's sheer stupidity that lead to the finding of the ring and the fellowship. Voldy isn't lucky, as he has the forces of fate working against him, (being beaten by a child and stuff) so Sauron would still be immortal in the end.
Even if the HP badguys would win, Sauron would just pull another Numenor and corrupt a powerful wizard country, maybe the Chinese wizards (again, superior numbers but this time with flashy quasi-chinese magic.)

[averagejoe]

I wonder if Chinese wizards use pseudo-latin. Maybe they use pseudo-ancient Chinese.

[Wizzardman]

People have *repeatedly* said the Nazgul are immune to magic. I'm glad it's dying now. I'm also glad to hear they're powerful sorcerers - can someone define that? Or give a reason why their skills or power levels are comparable to Voldemort, or any competent HP wizard? As I understand it, thus far the full description of their abilities is: "They were powerful sorcerers." :smallconfused:
Yeah, and that's because that's how abstract the books get. However, I would like to point out that the various magical scenes performed by Gandalf and the elves would qualify as probably about on-par with Nazgul sorcery.

None of us have said that they are immune to magic; I've just been saying that shooting one with Avada Kedavra is the equivalent of trying to kill a bonfire with a flamethrower. Nazgul as close to undead as things can get in LotR; shooting them with a 'killing curse' that is pretty much only designed to 'kill things' is a lesson in futility. That's why no one blasts Dementors or Inferi with Avada Kedavra in HP.

Highly magical world: You're right, of course - it's all very relative in what you call 'high'. I think LOTR is much more 'high fantasy' than high magic, since so-called 'vulgar' magic (to use the Mage: The Ascension term, indicating magic with a tangible display and/or effect) is rather scarce and HP high magic, but low(-er) fantasy for the same/opposite reasons. It doesn't dispel the issue of inherently magical vs. non-magical creatures. Trolls from The Hobbit certainly qualify; again, I'm misremembering terms and lumping all 'Big, stupid, smashy siege weapon creatures' under the word 'Troll'. Orcs are not natural, because they've been (basically) genetically engineered as perversions of elves (again, if I remember correctly). Uruks and Olags being Orc 2.0s just means they're sturdier perversions of elves. You don't build magic resistance into an upgrade unless they're going to be facing magic-weilding enemies, right? LOTR doesn't have armies of Men rife with those.

O rly? So what about these armies of elves I keep seeing about the place. Elves are highly magical, and use both magical weapons and magic effects in their fights against other races. Why wouldn't Sauron and Morgoth build defences against those in their weapons? For that matter, the fact that the hobbitses found magical blades designed to destroy Angmarian sorcery seems to support the theory that leaders use magic on/would need to give magic resistance to their troops. Why else give bunches of soldiers anti-Angmar blades if the only guy with magic is the Witch-King himself?


Protego would technically qualify as a bubble of force, but summoning any other material has the same practical effect. Apparating is not even primarily for running away, but for moving around the battlefield with terrifying facility, way faster than any swordsman can charge or archer can draw a bead and fire on. Any nonverbal magic, you might liken an immediate action in D&D terms. That's not going to do you for offense, but Protego and apparition are/can be wordless and have been demonstrably cast as reactions and are really all you need, to start.

You keep assuming every single Death Eater is a magic-mastering, Auror-slaughtering killing machine. Keep in mind, nonverbal magic is hard stuff in Harry Potter--else everyone would be kedavra-ing nonverbally, and all spells would be done silently. Nonverbal casting takes both skill and effort--and both of which would be in short supply if the Death Eaters are starving. Sometimes, sure, they'll be able to Apparate out nonverbally (provided Saruman doesn't develop some ridiculous plot-busting anti-Apparating device), and possibly even with food (that they'll have to locate), and possibly even edible food (kept in barrels cleverly hidden among barrels of Orcpoo and barrels of poisoned food), but they won't get away all the time, and that's the point.

[Ditto]

No more fooding!


In other news I still don't get why this isn't resolved. There is no hint of a possibility in my mind that Voldemort could win vs. Sauron in ANY case.
Sauron's a demigod. He has vast forces under his thrall, terrible creatures and perverse man-things among them. But Sauron was killed by a hobbit. Just because you're incredibly powerful does not mean you are invincible, and I hope it doesn't register as conceit to examine exactly *why* Sauron is supposedly invincible. Does he win every versus thread simply because he's a demigod? What would happen if he goes up against Star Trek? Or Elminster? Demigods get killed all the time in D&D. Voldemort is not the equivalent of "Sauron vs. Spam, who wins?" There's obviously something Voldemort has to bring to the fight, and I think that something is more significant than people give him credit for. It's an absurdly uphill battle, and I'm not pretending otherwise. But I don't think an orcish army can steamroll wizards - I'd choose the Harry Potter cohort over them any day. So you go on to examine the merits of the bigger guns, and the synergy among units, and so on. If it was flatly one-sided (that is, no-sided), then I can't see what the point of a vs. thread is in the first place.

Back to business... :smallsmile:

The elven cloaks are legit examples of magic items. You don't have to disappear to call it magic - 'antiscrying' or the HP equivalent of a Bedazzlement hex or the Hitchhiker's Guide's SEP. There's subtle magic in LOTR to some extent, including less vulgar examples like this, but you still have to have something more than 'prescience and destiny' to match against HP wizards' magic.

What magic do elves use in battle? I can see Sauron's army being built with less-than-full regard to elves-as-enemies, since the elves are a bunch of recluses who keep themselves busy not-being-mindcrushed rather than crusading against Overlords these days. That's why it was such a huge surprise that the elven armies showed up at Helm's Deep, yes? The anti-Angmar blades were relics of a time when elves and the ubercreatures roamed around battling each other in epic conflicts (the pre-books). That's not what things have been like for a long, long time as of LOTR. There isn't exactly a smith somewhere mass producing these blades - it's not standard issue to any but Heroes. We can't forget how large the armies of Men are, too, when considering the relative number of magic weapons. (It's a low ratio.)

Death Eaters, at least in groups, *are* Auror-killing machines. That's why you have Aurors in the first place. They're not all Harry Potter (who got by a lot more on luck than skill, but that's how duelling in HP goes...), and they're certainly not all Voldemort, but these are competent wizards who are used to war where they're forced to keep the big stuff under wraps for secrecy's sake. Now that unleashing Fiendfyre isn't a problem, you're going to see a lot more of it.

If the Ring can, in fact, be used as a weapon by a sufficiently nifty weilder (such as Gandalf and his ilk) to defeat Sauron, then the Ringbearer can win the fight. The user is corrupted by the Ring to be evilly incarnate just *like* Sauron, but he would not become Sauron's stooge - again, hence Gandalf's statements. Sure, Sauron isn't-quite-dead, but having your ultimate creation turned back on you and your forces devasted is a loss for him in my book. That being said, I don't understand the Ring to be usable in that way. It was suggested by someone who knows LOTR better than I do, though, so I'm certainly going to put it on the table.

Relative classifications of magic throughout human history don't match up when you have two works written a mere half a century apart from each other - we're not talking about witch hunts being in vogue or religious superstitions of fealty to the Greek pantheon. Harry Potter-level magical fantasy existed contemporaneously with Tolkein's works; the best sci-fi grew from both sets of traditions. We're not talking about incomparable worldviews between the two series, just two different flavors. (It is possible for a fantasy book to be written with low magic...)

If all a wizard had was card tricks and charisma, then that's a pretty weak wizard against Harry Potter. It's not anyone's fault, or a deficiency in either work, but a card trickster isn't going to win a fight against a hexer.

[warty goblin]

RE: Voldermort with the Ring- the Ring would not win Voldermort the war as far as I can tell, since the Ring seems to primarily increase power of command, which is not Voldermort's strong point- killing things is. Sauron is very good at controlling people however, even with much of his power bound up in the Ring and not directly available he can still nearly conquer the world. With the Ring the world would be his door mat. Power (particularly Sauron's power) in LOTR seems to often be a function of command- the elves are an exception to this, but the elves in Tolkein are generally unbelievibly bad-ass- they can solo balrogs with swords after all.

The Ring might give Voldermort more power or enhance his existing power, but I don't see it as granting him the ability to dominate the earth the way it does Sauron, that's just not Voldermort's strength. Also, wearing the Ring invites direct attention from Sauron, which is generally not a good thing for humans...

[Rowanomicon]

No more fooding!

Why can't we discuss the tactics that a large group can use against a small group?



Does he win every versus thread simply because he's a demigod?

Wait, are you complaining that Sauron is too powerful and therefore it's an unfair fight. If so, you're right.
In answer to your question: No, but he sure as he(double-hockey-sticks) wins this one.


Voldemort is not the equivalent of "Sauron vs. Spam, who wins?"

Must...Not...Respond...


you still have to have something more than 'prescience and destiny' to match against HP wizards' magic.

OK wait a minute. No offense, but do you even read the other posts in this thread? Even you have mention example of obvious magic in Middle Earth.


What magic do elves use in battle?

You can't possibly want us to list it, do you? Almost everything with anything to do with Middle Earth Elves is considered magic.


I can see Sauron's army being built with less-than-full regard to elves-as-enemies, since the elves are a bunch of recluses who keep themselves busy not-being-mindcrushed rather than crusading against Overlords these days.

Orcs and Trolls were created back when
ubercreatures roamed around battling each other in epic conflicts (the pre-books)

Uruks and Ologs, being improved versions of those creatures (respectively), would have at least the magic resistance that their predecessors had.


If the Ring can, in fact, be used as a weapon by a sufficiently nifty weilder (such as Gandalf and his ilk) to defeat Sauron, then the Ringbearer can win the fight. The user is corrupted by the Ring to be evilly incarnate just *like* Sauron, but he would not become Sauron's stooge - again, hence Gandalf's statements. Sure, Sauron isn't-quite-dead, but having your ultimate creation turned back on you and your forces devasted is a loss for him in my book.

Well, we know that as long as The Ring exists Sauron exist. We also know that The Ring bends its bearer to its will; this effect increases with time. Furthermore the will of The Ring is the will of Sauron.
I will rest my case with 9 examples of rings of power turning powerful people into Sauron's stooges: The Nine

Ditto, I have one simple question for you that I'd like you to answer straight forwardly with a 'yes', or a 'no': Do you actually think Voldemort has a chance to win this fight?

[Ditto]

Having Sauron-like abilities to command... like with huge armies full of orcs and other unsavory creatures? That *does* sound handy.

I'm looking through Wikipedia's list of Ring powers. First off, it does not inevitably corrupt the user to Sauron's will. It tries to return to him, and it corrupts the bearer to increased eviloscity - but no combination of the two (returning & corrupting for Sauron) is postulated. It also has the 'better part of native power', an interesting factoid.
-Increased control over others' minds. Particularly, increased ability relative to the abilities of the bearer. Voldemort is accomplished at getting in people's heads, via the Imperius curse and as the most gifted Legillimens known.
-Mastery over the Rings. That means the Nazgul are now on the side of the Ringbearer.
-(Various other cute tricks.)
-In the end, someone with a sufficient degree of control and some practice *would* be able to overthrow Sauron.

More fun Wikitrivia I found: Sauron surrendered at Az-Pharazon because he was intimidated? I mean, might king with a huge fleet, sure, good call, but that's sort of interesting.

Edits for Rowan: Fooding is fine, but that's a more mundane tactic - as you say, large groups vs. small groups. It's not peculiar to this engagement, and vs. threads typically discuss military conflict as their primary form of contention. I just think the optimizations of storage sheds (with 4 orcs per 10'x10' room guarding many decoy areas with spiked barrels across all of Middle Earth) is a bit off point. ::shrug:: We can always circle back around to it.

Demigods winning: It's not being powerful that's the problem, it's that the line is, "He's a demigod! You can't beat that!" Being a demigod doesn't necessarily have anything to do with his forces in the mortal world - people say he's a demigod, and assume that's that. That's all I'm saying on that count - it's not a reason for an auto-win.

Yes, there is a great variety of vulgar magic in LOTR - not *nearly* on the scale of HP, though. I cite prescience, destiny, hope, and protection as the prime examples because they are the powers associated with the Three Rings and the greatest magic-users of the era; all very impressive, but not helpful in a fight. Theirs are inherently more defensive magics. Nothing wrong with that, but not battle-applicable.

Orcs are the devolution of a perversion of the lower breed of elves, thousands of years back. I'm inclined to think any magical resistance they have has waned somewhat. Improved resistance would represent an infusion of elfish traits, which doesn't seem quite like what Uruks had going for them. Intelligence and raw force, sure. And though they are magical creatures, elves aren't immune to magic either. AND a wizard's weapons are not just hexes - throwing rocks and summoning blades are tactics that do not strike with magic energy, and everyone on both sides has been shown to be more or less vulnerable to stabbing.

As above: The Ring is not Sauron. It's analagous to a Horcrux, in that a substantial piece of the creators soul is baked in, allowing it a reasonable facsimile, but NOT the full abilities and connection that is implied here. The Ring is Sauron-like, but is not fully conscious and is not Sauron himself. The 9 stooges were part of the Ring's power, increased commands over the minds of others, and quite expressly the minds of the other 19 Rings.

Do I think Voldemort can win? Yes. It's not an easy fight, it's not a short fight, and if you keep running this scenario he wouldn't win it every time, not at all. But he can definitely win, one way or another.

[LordVader]

I just want to see the look on Voldie's face when Avada Kedavra bounces off Sauron's chest.:smallamused:

[landadmiral]

Who says you can't compare? All things being equal

Sauron > Voldemort

Sauron minions > Voldemort minions

Sauron resources > Voldemort resources

Sauron nation > Voldemort nation

[Winterwind]

We don't really know how the Ring helps its Bearer, if that person is powerful enough to bend it to her or his will.
My understanding was always that it enhances any innate magical powers that person might possess, but that's just a guess as good as any.
The Seven Rings helped the dwarves grow in wealth somehow, and I think the Nine granted sorcery and longeivity, but I'm not quite sure where I got this from. Appendixes or Silmarillion, probably.

Anyway, it is stated that a powerful person wielding the Ring could destroy Sauron. Whether Voldemort qualifies or not is up to everyone to decide for her/himself. I think he might.

[LordVader]

The Seven helped increase their treasure hoardes but simultaneously cursed them all. Smaug finished off the final one.

[The_Snark]

On using the Ring: Yes, Voldemort could use the Ring. Eventually. Assuming he had it, and learned how to use it. He could learn how to use it, certainly; he has the willpower/power to do that. But it's not a fast process; if Aragorn had had the Ring since Rivendell, and gone to the Black Gate with it, he still would have been crushed.

And why are we assuming Voldemort has the Ring? That's like assuming Sauron has Voldemort's wand. Or all three Deathly Hallows, really.

On the Seven: The Seven increased the wealth of the dwarves, but it (inexact quote) "needed gold to breed more gold." The dwarves couldn't be turned to Sauron's will, but the rings made them greety and mistrustful of others. Dragons consumed four of the dwarven rings, and Sauron reclaimed the other three.

On Sauron surrendering: Yeah, he surrendered. He was outnumbered, his army was vastly outclassed. And sixty years later, Numenor is annihilated due to Sauron's manipulations.

Corruption is a favorite tactic of his, so here's what Sauron could do when faced with Voldemort:

Voldemort: Surrender or die!
Sauron: We surrender! Here, to show we mean it, here are some Rings of Power. [gives Voldemort one of the Nine]

Later:
Voldemort: This Ringwraith thing kinda sucks. But at least I'm immortal.
Sauron: Yeah. Now look, my newest minion, there's this hobbit needs killing... Pretend he's got a lightning scar, or something.