Bard, College of Lore (help with the spell list)

[OKN_09]

Next week i'll start a new campaign and i am new to 5e. The party composition is Druid, Paladin, Rouge (maybe) and Bard (Human Variant). We start at level 8th and i have pretty much build the character.
My problem is about the spell list, i have chosen:
Magic Initiate (Sorcerer): Fire Bolt, Shocking Gasp and Shield
Magic Secrets: Bless and Counterspell

My goal is to cover buff/debuff/controll during combat with some poke catnips(FB, SG) and use the skill and expertise for investigation and face role out of combat.

I'd like to know your opinions if there are better spells for magic secrets or magic initiate.

[Man_Over_Game]

I've always been partial to Find Steed on Bards. Being a mobile concentration caster on a horse really helps change things up. I'd swap out Bless for it.

Everything else seems fine, so long as you grab a bunch of non-combatant Bard cantrips, as Fire Bolt and Shocking Grasp should be the only combat cantrips you need.

[Keravath]

I found that a two level multiclass into hexblade warlock worked well but it did cause a lag in spell progression. However, if you are starting at level 8 then 6 bard/2 hexblade warlock works really well and you are past the hard part.

The benefits of the warlock are the following:
- agonizing + eldritch blast for much better at will damage than firebolt - combined with the times you use hex gives you very competitive single target damage
- proficiency in medium armor, shields and martial weapons which will give you a starting AC of 18.
- warlock spells and two cantrips including hex and shield (shield taken as part of magic initiate is usable just 1/day)
- 2 1st level short rest spell slots (this means you get two extra first level spells that refresh on a short rest)
- devils sight as the second invocation since variant humans can't see in the dark
- the ability to take resilient constitution as your starting feat. This can be critically important since a lot of the bard support spells require concentration (your current character doesn't have resilient constitution and has a low AC so you can expect about a 50/50 chance of any spell you are concentrating on dropping whenever you are hit.
- it doesn't prevent 9th level spells or the 18th level magical secrets (if the game even goes that long).

The downside of 2 level warlock dip:
- the bard spells run one level behind (at level 8 you have 3rd level rather than fourth level spells)
- the higher level bard features come later

On spell selection:

Your party doesn't seem to have a wizard so the bard is left to cover AoE damage. In addition, if you have a moon druid in the party then you may also be responsible for in combat healing (mostly healing word to get folks off the ground and back into the fight).

So my suggestion for the level 6 magical secrets would tend to be counterspell and fireball.


There is an alternate way to cover some of the bard gaps and that is to start with your first level in cleric. This gets you medium armor and shields along with bless, some healing and utility spells. It requires at least a 13 in wisdom though so it can be a bit challenging stat wise but is doable with low int and strength. I'd still take resilient con. You would then be a cleric 1/lore bard 7 with better armor, cleric spells like bless and healing freeing up a couple of bard spots and still have your 4th level spells.

I'm not sure that you really get enough from magic initiate to make it worthwhile especially since shield is only 1/day and your AC will be very low to start with (likely 15 if you go with 16 dex).

Finally, some good bard spell picks along the way are:
- Dissonant whispers
- healing word (very important to have this on any bard)
- faerie fire
- blindness
- suggestion
- hypnotic pattern

[sophontteks]

Bless is a waste for you. Bards are heavy on concentration spells. Concentrating on bless requires you to throw away the majority of your spells, and practically all of your good spells. Fireball would be a great AOE non-concentration spell that doesn't compete with other bard spells.

[Aquillion]

Next week i'll start a new campaign and i am new to 5e. The party composition is Druid, Paladin, Rouge (maybe) and Bard (Human Variant). We start at level 8th and i have pretty much build the character.
My problem is about the spell list, i have chosen:
Magic Initiate (Sorcerer): Fire Bolt, Shocking Gasp and Shield
This isn't bad. But keep in mind you will only be able to cast shield once per long rest, which may make it far less useful than you're thinking.

Eldritch Blast is better than Fire Bolt (fewer things resist, and it makes multiple attacks, allowing you to split the damage and benefit more from per-attack damage boosts), but you'd have to choose Warlock instead of Sorcerer for that, which would require replacing Shocking Grasp and Shield. Hex might make a good alternative, since its long duration makes it good if you're only casting it once a day and don't want to waste your actual spells; it also has some utility when you need to ruin someone's ability checks. And it combines nicely with Eldritch Blast for when you just have to add damage.


Magic Secrets: Bless and Counterspell

My goal is to cover buff/debuff/controll during combat with some poke catnips(FB, SG) and use the skill and expertise for investigation and face role out of combat.

I'd like to know your opinions if there are better spells for magic secrets or magic initiate.
Bless is probably a bad idea. It's a good spell, but your Paladin can provide it, and you'll often have other stuff you want to spend your concentration on.

Alternatives to consider:

Animate Dead: Provides additional support with no concentration, and it does something nobody else in your party does. In addition to combat applications, loyal undead servants have a lot of utility. May not fit your concept.

Fireball: May not fit your concept, but it's nice to have a burst damage option - and your Bard spells probably already cover your "main stuff. Also, your party may lack crowd control options.

Healing Spirit: Your druid and paladin will probably be enough healing, but this is still worth considering.

Armor of Agathys: A useful non-concentration buff. The fact that its retaliation damage has no save, no attack roll, and scales well with caster level makes this surprisingly powerful when upcast; it's particularly good for Lore Bards because they can use Cutting Words to reduce the damage they take, making it last even longer (and do more damage over its lifetime.) But of course this requires that you be willing to tank melee hits sometimes.

Revivify: Your Paladin already has this, but who's going to bring them back? Of course, you can just wait a level for Raise Dead, which is on your class list and doesn't cost that much more per shot, but the higher casting time can be annoying.

Spiritual Weapon: Free extra damage without concentration, provided you spend your bonus actions on it (use your Bardic Inspiration via Cutting Words instead.)

Eldritch Blast: If you take this as a magical secret, you can replace your Magic Initiate feat with something else (of course, then you'd have to decide what.)

Mirror Image: A good defense spell that doesn't use concentration.

Shield: You mentioned you wanted this as a Magic Initiate spell; if you take it via Magical Secrets, you can cast it multiple times a day instead.


Personally, out of these, I would lean towards Fireball, since AOE damage seems like something your party lacks. Yes, it doesn't fit your stated concept - but the reality is that your existing Bard list is overflowing with stuff that fits that concept; you're going to have 11 spells that do that already. You're better off spending your limited Magical Secrets on stuff the Bard list doesn't already provide.


I've always been partial to Find Steed on Bards. Being a mobile concentration caster on a horse really helps change things up. I'd swap out Bless for it.
In two levels they can get Find Greater Steed, which allows flight. I would suggest waiting for that.


Everything else seems fine, so long as you grab a bunch of non-combatant Bard cantrips, as Fire Bolt and Shocking Grasp should be the only combat cantrips you need.Vicious Mockery is one of the best cantrips in the game and well worth taking for the disadvantage (and for enemies that are hard to hit) even if you already have a damage option.

Besides, they get three Bard cantrips (and will get a 4th in two levels); they're going to run out of worthwhile ones to take.

[OKN_09]

Thank you all for your answers.

I found that a two level multiclass into hexblade warlock worked well but it did cause a lag in spell progression. However, if you are starting at level 8 then 6 bard/2 hexblade warlock works really well and you are past the hard part.
I must admit that a 2 level dip with the Warlock is a sweet deal and on the long run don't lose any spells.

Taking all that has been written into account my spell list should be like this:
Catnips:Vicious Mockery, Message, Minor Illusion; Eldritch Blast and Booming Blade (or Sword Burst)
1st: Bane, Dissonant Whispers, Faire Fire, Healing word, Hideous Laughter; Hex and Shield
2nd: Enhance ability (or Find Steed), Suggestion
3rd: Enemies Abound, Hypnotic pattern;(magical secret) Fire Ball, Counterspell
4th: Greater invisibility, Polymorph

Four 3th level spells seem way to much, probably i should change Enemies Abound with Invisibility

Thank again.