To roll or not to roll (and PB can get right out!)

[Theodoxus]

So, I was reading a question on Quora that asked how various DMs had their players generate stats. One answer kinda shocked me, but when I started thinking about it, I realized I tend to do this for my own characters...

Basically, the DM said he just lets his players pick their stats. No rolling, no Point Buy, just, if you want 6 18s, you get 6 18s. Pre-racial bonuses, of course.

His justification was that his players were mature and never really abused the idea, but even if they did, he didn't mind - presumably (it wasn't part of the answer, but it's what any decent DM would do) he'd up the challenge to the players. More HPs means harder hitting critters; better attacks means more opponents and/or better defenses, etc.

But mostly, I think his players typically have the same idea I do - one great stat, a few good ones, a mediocre one or two and probably a dump stat (or a "Stormwind" character with a 5 in Strength or Intelligence for the roleplay "LOLs")

I queried my own players, and so far the answers match both mine, and the Quora DMs - an 18, a few mid level teens, and a couple in the 10-12 range.

So, I guess I have two primary questions: Would any of you do this (or are currently doing this), and would you use it as a culling device - if someone in the group presented a character with all (or mostly) 18s in their stats, would you figure they're a munchkin and toss them from the table?

[Man_Over_Game]

So, I was reading a question on Quora that asked how various DMs had their players generate stats. One answer kinda shocked me, but when I started thinking about it, I realized I tend to do this for my own characters...

Basically, the DM said he just lets his players pick their stats. No rolling, no Point Buy, just, if you want 6 18s, you get 6 18s. Pre-racial bonuses, of course.

His justification was that his players were mature and never really abused the idea, but even if they did, he didn't mind - presumably (it wasn't part of the answer, but it's what any decent DM would do) he'd up the challenge to the players. More HPs means harder hitting critters; better attacks means more opponents and/or better defenses, etc.

But mostly, I think his players typically have the same idea I do - one great stat, a few good ones, a mediocre one or two and probably a dump stat (or a "Stormwind" character with a 5 in Strength or Intelligence for the roleplay "LOLs")

I queried my own players, and so far the answers match both mine, and the Quora DMs - an 18, a few mid level teens, and a couple in the 10-12 range.

So, I guess I have two primary questions: Would any of you do this (or are currently doing this), and would you use it as a culling device - if someone in the group presented a character with all (or mostly) 18s in their stats, would you figure they're a munchkin and toss them from the table?

It's not always wrong, though.

People like me prefer a challenge, and we like to beat those challenges. My wife plays games to feel like a badass regardless of the challenge present. Neither of us are wrong, yet we both have different preferences to how we play a game.

Choosing to have lower stats may make you a liability when everyone else is hulked out, so you may put a damper on the group if your stats are low.

Also, you can't just tell someone they're allowed to do something and then punish them for doing it.




The Point Buy system is designed to mitigate any problems of anyone overshadowing anyone else, so that players don't have to worry so much about being stronger or weaker than anyone else, and that's why people use it. Of course, you can choose to not use it, but then you have to accept that all the problems it fixes aren't problems you care about.

I care about how an individual feels in the team, so I use it, but I've heard many DMs say that success in DnD isn't about the individual but rather how the group works together, so an individual's stats don't matter in regards to the group's success. In my eyes, though, Fun is based on a per-individual basis, and Success ≠ Fun.

[Rerem115]

I'm in a similar camp when I build characters; unless the DM specifically requires us to roll in front of the table, I'll roll several sets on my own before finding an array that I like. If it looks too strong, I'll move a point or two from a secondary stat to a dump stat.

For my players, I take a different position with similar results: Roll 7x4d6(drop lowest) and keep best 6 sets, or go for 31 point buy. It winds up with a little higher than AL/average power level, allowing for a little more player excitement, while still keeping within the "normal" bounds of 5e.

[hymer]

Would any of you do this (or are currently doing this)
I have in the past had a discussion with players about how to generate stats, and gone with what they agreed on. Not quite the same.


and would you use it as a culling device - if someone in the group presented a character with all (or mostly) 18s in their stats, would you figure they're a munchkin and toss them from the table?
No. That's capricious. I would not give an unknown player such free reins to begin with. Clear expectations should be stated on both sides.

My worry for that very free system would be more for the players who mistakenly breaks their characters (one way or another), or the potential power discrepancy it could cause in the party. Aside from animosity among players, it's annoying to try to fit encounters to a party with a very weak PC. It also raises some questions of why this incompetent person is adventuring. It's clearly too dangerous, and the other people in the party are being held back trying to cover.

[Theodoxus]

The DM's reasoning was "rolling, especially when you start getting into esoteric convoluted systems (and Rerem115's is getting there), just slows down getting into the game." And around point buy, well, if you're just picking stats, and your buddy picked better stats than you, you can just pick a better one right back - yeah, it has the potential of getting into a bidding war, where everyone ends up straight 18s anyway, but I suspect that would happen with point buy - it's just you're locked into a much smaller (but not zero) range.

And while bounded accuracy helps with keeping point buy from overshadowing, it's still definitely possible to make a less effective character than the rest of the group.

I've played AL, where a wizard went with an 8 Con. He honestly didn't think he'd ever get targeted by anything, and was planning on hiding behind the tanks... but it's AL, first session he was fine - we had a S&B fighter and a Paladin taking most of the aggro. Second game though, only "tank" was a life cleric who preferred healing from the back. The wizard died.

Anecdotes aside, I get your point.

[Potato_Priest]

That doesn't sound like something I'd want to use at my table, though an amount of subjectivity is always a good idea if you're playing with people you trust.

The reason being that a lot of my players are optimizers, and enjoy one-upping each other, which would lead to a rather predictable result in that situation.

However, that doesn't mean I need to stick to a rigid and convoluted structure for generating stats. At our tables it's fairly common for the method to be "roll 4d6 drop lowest 6 times, if you don't like it ask the DM if you can roll again".

Gives some elements of random chance (which I like), variety (which I like) and the simple act of having to ask the DM for a reroll keeps players from really wanting to game it, since it'll be obvious to everyone when they do so.

[MadBear]

I can't imagine that'd be something that my players or I would ever want. I love the normal rolling system for the randomness it provides, and point buy if I want an equal and fair system for point distribution. this has neither the fun random element, nor the a fair distribution among players.

[Pelle]

I prefer standard array, but I like 'just pick stats however you want (including rolling if you want)' more than PB or rolling. If players don't want a common baseline, then completely make it the players responsibilty to obtain appropriate stats. If you like the randomness of rolling, go ahead, and reroll until you are happy. If you take all 18s, I assume you just don't like to be challenged and want to play on easy mode.

[ShadowSandbag]

As long as you trust your players I don't see any problems. It can make certain character concepts a lot more viable, like a Monk/Paladin multiclass. Not anything that would be overpowered, but requires a number of decent stats.

[Man_Over_Game]

The DM's reasoning was "rolling, especially when you start getting into esoteric convoluted systems (and Rerem115's is getting there), just slows down getting into the game." And around point buy, well, if you're just picking stats, and your buddy picked better stats than you, you can just pick a better one right back - yeah, it has the potential of getting into a bidding war, where everyone ends up straight 18s anyway, but I suspect that would happen with point buy - it's just you're locked into a much smaller (but not zero) range.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by picking better stats that someone using Point Buy. Everyone has the same budget, and singular stats can be better, but they become more expensive the higher up they go. Sure, you started with a 19, but how many 8's did you have to take to get it?

I guess I'm having a hard time seeing the problem that you're describing, and fixing it seems to create more problems that is worth it.

[MaxWilson]

So, I guess I have two primary questions: Would any of you do this (or are currently doing this), and would you use it as a culling device - if someone in the group presented a character with all (or mostly) 18s in their stats, would you figure they're a munchkin and toss them from the table?

I don't mind the idea in principle, but in practice I have two issues with the exact way you've phrased things:

(1) If I say "you can pick your stats," I'm not going to use that as a secret test of some kind. If you bring a character with all 18s to the table, I'll let you play that character, or I wouldn't have offered you that in the first place.

(2) I would worry a little bit about stat inflation. Does the all 18s guy really appreciate what Con 18 means relative to the average human, for instance, or is he just picking it because it's the highest number? Before I offered this option I would want to have some way of knowing that the players really grokked what the probability curve looks like for normal NPCs and PCs so that I know they're all making informed decisions.

For example, if you come to the table with a guy with all 18s, and that guy gets eaten by a gelatinous cube, and you make a new guy who also has all 18s... are you prepared for the public reaction and conspiracy theories that may arise about a race of genetic supermen (your PCs) who have mysteriously begun appearing?

Anyway, in practice I've found that allowing both fallback-to-point-buy-if-you-don't-like-your-rolls and donate-your-PC-to-the-DM-as-an-NPC-and-roll-a-new-one* work well enough.

* With the additional constraint that you also have to roll up some NPCs on 3d6-in-order and donate those too, to make sure you remember what average-ish people are like and that 13 is actually a pretty good score.

[Sigreid]

Um, I suppose I might be letting the players choose their stats since I don't insist that they roll in front of me and even if they do I'm likely not really paying attention. Is that one of your options?

[Shadhael]

Anyway, in practice I've found that allowing both fallback-to-point-buy-if-you-don't-like-your-rolls and donate-your-PC-to-the-DM-as-an-NPC-and-roll-a-new-one* work well enough.

* With the additional constraint that you also have to roll up some NPCs on 3d6-in-order and donate those too, to make sure you remember what average-ish people are like and that 13 is actually a pretty good score.


That's a good point about how 13 is still a good score. It's the basis for being able to multiclass. If your DEX is 13, you're nimble enough to be a rogue and not just a cut purse. If your INT is 13 you're smart enough to be a full fledged wizard and not just a petty magician.

To the original point, I have only played with people I have been friends with for years, and I trust them to know where the boundary is between having a strong and fulfilling character who is fun to play, and an unstoppable rampage machine.

[DarkKnightJin]

I don't mind the idea in principle, but in practice I have two issues with the exact way you've phrased things:

(1) If I say "you can pick your stats," I'm not going to use that as a secret test of some kind. If you bring a character with all 18s to the table, I'll let you play that character, or I wouldn't have offered you that in the first place.

(2) I would worry a little bit about stat inflation. Does the all 18s guy really appreciate what Con 18 means relative to the average human, for instance, or is he just picking it because it's the highest number? Before I offered this option I would want to have some way of knowing that the players really grokked what the probability curve looks like for normal NPCs and PCs so that I know they're all making informed decisions.

For example, if you come to the table with a guy with all 18s, and that guy gets eaten by a gelatinous cube, and you make a new guy who also has all 18s... are you prepared for the public reaction and conspiracy theories that may arise about a race of genetic supermen (your PCs) who have mysteriously begun appearing?

Anyway, in practice I've found that allowing both fallback-to-point-buy-if-you-don't-like-your-rolls and donate-your-PC-to-the-DM-as-an-NPC-and-roll-a-new-one* work well enough.

* With the additional constraint that you also have to roll up some NPCs on 3d6-in-order and donate those too, to make sure you remember what average-ish people are like and that 13 is actually a pretty good score.


I usually make a character sheet with point buy so that I have a clear baseline for any table I might play them at.
My Cleric was a 'roll stats, but you can go with your point buy if you like' deal.

My Paladin was a "roll 6 numbers with 4d6(drop lowest). Make 3 arrays, then pick the most 'average' one." It works, and the power level for my Paladin is definitely better than point buy.. But not so much that I've got maxed out stat at 4th level.

[Lunali]

It occurs to me that it might be fun to play a character with all 18s but no direction, naturally gifted but no idea what he actually wants to do so he picks up a wide variety of classes.

[sithlordnergal]

I tend to do 30 point buy, with the usual rule that you can't have higher then 15 before you apply racial modifiers. To be honest, I wouldn't trust my players with such an option...I've done enough AL games to know that one player in particular will do whatever he can to have the highest stats possible.

[MikeRoxTheBoat]

Maybe do a combo of some methods. Have all the players at the table agree on an array and go with that, or have them agree on a couple of arrays to pick between.

[djreynolds]

I roll a standard array for the table.

It works.

There really is no difference between an 8 and a 10, but it matters for the players.

Last game it was 17, 15, 14 12, 12 ,12.

I also give out max HP. A barbarian getting 7 hp out 12 is 58%, while a wizard get 4 out of 6, is 66%. So it's more reasonable.

And now I do not feel the slightest guilt about hammering the party.

I also make taking short rests mandatory.

[Ogre Mage]

I would be open to just letting players pick their stats, but if I were the DM I would reserve the right to see what they chose and adjust if I felt they had gone overboard.

As I player I have a tendency to like powerful characters, so I would have to be careful I didn't go too far with picking my stats. I would make sure I picked at least two average scores. One of the two might even be a dump stat (penalty) if I felt it was appropriate for the character.

[Bloodcloud]

Last game I had every player roll a line, and they could all use the better one. It turned out just about what you said in term of stat line. Usually we did 3 lines per person, you keep your best, but it did lead to a bit of unbalance sometime, so everyone with the same line more or less is working better.

[Snails]

My worry for that very free system would be more for the players who mistakenly breaks their characters (one way or another), or the potential power discrepancy it could cause in the party. Aside from animosity among players, it's annoying to try to fit encounters to a party with a very weak PC. It also raises some questions of why this incompetent person is adventuring. It's clearly too dangerous, and the other people in the party are being held back trying to cover.

I wonder about it, too.

IMHO, it is an unnecessary potential hindrance to fun for both the players and DM to have large intra-party power discrepancies. Some differences are inevitable, but why offer no guidance and allow differences to be very large?

I did think about allowing the players to decide their stats, but if I were to do so I would stipulate that the players were expected to choose stats that keep them on all a similar level of power, and police themselves. So, yes, you can give a little boost to the PC with the weird multiclass, but do so with your eyes open and do not bother me about the details.

At the end of the day, it seems like it is adding hassle more than adding fun. YMMV.

[Sigreid]

I wonder about it, too.

IMHO, it is an unnecessary potential hindrance to fun for both the players and DM to have large intra-party power discrepancies. Some differences are inevitable, but why offer no guidance and allow differences to be very large?

I did think about allowing the players to decide their stats, but if I were to do so I would stipulate that the players were expected to choose stats that keep them on all a similar level of power, and police themselves. So, yes, you can give a little boost to the PC with the weird multiclass, but do so with your eyes open and do not bother me about the details.

At the end of the day, it seems like it is adding hassle more than adding fun. YMMV.

Going that route would be easy enough. You just say "you can pick your stats but the maximum combined bonus before (or after race if you prefer to have race not matter much to class choices) is x. with x being whatever value you decide is appropriate for your campaign.