Stats: Rolling / Point Buy choice, OR, Rolling with Point Buy as fallback?

[Merudo]

I'm a DM. Some of my players want to Roll for stats, some of them want to use Point Buy.

I'm debating between two options:


Players pick one option (Rolling or Point Buy) & commit to it. If they roll poorly, they are stuck with it and can't go back to Point Buy
Players roll for stats, and if they do not like their results, they can switch to Point Buy


Any reason why I should prefer one of these options?

[Man_Over_Game]

I'm a DM. Some of my players want to Roll for stats, some of them want to use Point Buy.

I'm debating between two options:


Players pick one option (Rolling or Point Buy) & commit to it. If they roll poorly, they are stuck with it and can't go back to Point Buy
Players roll for stats, and if they do not like their results, they can switch to Point Buy


Any reason why I should prefer one of these options?

Option 1 is a "Suck it up, buttercup" solution, good for letting your players know that they have to deal with their decisions, even if they don't like it. It also gives off a strong sense of identity, even if they hate themselves.
Option 2 is better for having the system catered for their comfort. Playing a game doesn't always have to be harsh. On the flipside, though, it does create less "color", as you'll have no players with stats that they don't want.

[MaxWilson]

I'm a DM. Some of my players want to Roll for stats, some of them want to use Point Buy.

I'm debating between two options:


Players pick one option (Rolling or Point Buy) & commit to it. If they roll poorly, they are stuck with it and can't go back to Point Buy
Players roll for stats, and if they do not like their results, they can switch to Point Buy


Any reason why I should prefer one of these options?

If you expect players to be stuck with their PCs for longer than a month or so, I'd err on the side of #2. If you're running a one-shot, or a campaign where they're allowed to have multiple PCs and just pick which one they bring on any given adventure, then the stakes are lower and you can afford to require #1.

[CTurbo]

I'd let them roll, and let them use point buy as a fallback option

But when my players roll, anybody can use anybody's rolls. This usually ensures everybody is on equal footing which is more important to me than anything else.

I don't care if everybody is 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 13 as long as they're relatively even. What I DON'T want is for one player to be 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 13 and another player to be 15, 14, 14, 10, 10, 8

[Lunali]

IMO, its far more important that stats be roughly equal between characters than what their stats actually are. I give the players the choice between point buy and everyone rolling and anyone can use any of the arrays of stats rolled, they all have to agree on one method or the other.

[Stygofthedump]

We used 3d6 straight up. With an option to reroll all once and keep result. Scary but we all agree this is a lot more fun. We all have at least one bad stat but overall it hasn’t affected gameplay. If you find the CR ratings to low then player stats are too high.

[KorvinStarmast]

Any reason why I should prefer one of these options? No, since you are the DM, you tell them the options.
So, which one do YOU like?
If you lack the fortitude to proceed in that manner, fine, because you have another option that GiTP folks have discussed for the last four or five years.

Here is how it works:
All players roll their set of ability scores 4d6drop1.
Examine the results.
They are then asked: "which set of scores to you all want?"

Make Them Choose. As a Group. Until they, as a group, can come to a consensus on something this simple you are wasting your time as a DM with them. Don't fall into that trap.

This is step one in them bonding as a group.
You need that anyway, so this is your golden opportunity as a DM to let them begin to build their little small group consensus method.

[Aquillion]

I'm a DM. Some of my players want to Roll for stats, some of them want to use Point Buy.

I'm debating between two options:


Players pick one option (Rolling or Point Buy) & commit to it. If they roll poorly, they are stuck with it and can't go back to Point Buy
Players roll for stats, and if they do not like their results, they can switch to Point Buy


Any reason why I should prefer one of these options?Mathematically, rolling produces, on average, stats similar to point buy. Of course, this is cold comfort when you have a sharp disparity in actual results that unbalances your game.

Rolling with point buy as a fallback will, on average, make your party stronger than they would be otherwise (obviously), which might cause problems with balancing encounters, especially at low levels where most of the players' numbers come from their stats and ASIs haven't had enough time to even things out by letting everyone who wants to hit their cap in their most important stat.

That said, it's not so big of a deal, so the more important question might be to ask your players why they prefer one or the other and to devise a compromise from that. For example...

Players who prefer point buy may not like the potential imbalance that comes from rolling stats.

Players who prefer rolling may really really want to have an 18 and prefer to roll in hopes of getting one.

...in that case, you could fix things by just offering point buy or arrays with higher caps or somesuch.

[Pharaon]

I'd let them roll, and let them use point buy as a fallback option

But when my players roll, anybody can use anybody's rolls. This usually ensures everybody is on equal footing which is more important to me than anything else.

I don't care if everybody is 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 13 as long as they're relatively even. What I DON'T want is for one player to be 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 13 and another player to be 15, 14, 14, 10, 10, 8

This is what I do, and the reason I do it. I've been the player that's rolled really well with everyone else below average. It was fun for me but not the other players, and that killed the fun pretty quickly.

(I actually have players roll 7 sets of 4d6, then drop any set of the roller's choice. I've been surprised how often players willingly take a 6 in a stat, mostly because it would make the other players take it if they borrowed the set!)

[JumboWheat01]

I would say, instead of Rolling with Point Buy as a fallback, have Rolling with Standard Array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) as a fallback. Decent enough characters can be made wit the Standard array without being super focused, still having a bad point, and what-not.

[KyleG]

No, since you are the DM, you tell them the options.
So, which one do YOU like?
If you lack the fortitude to proceed in that manner, fine, because you have another option that GiTP folks have discussed for the last four or five years.

Here is how it works:
All players roll their set of ability scores 4d6drop1.
Examine the results.
They are then asked: "which set of scores to you all want?"

Make Them Choose. As a Group. Until they, as a group, can come to a consensus on something this simple you are wasting your time as a DM with them. Don't fall into that trap.

This is step one in them bonding as a group.
You need that anyway, so this is your golden opportunity as a DM to let them begin to build their little small group consensus method.

Love this.

[ChiefBigFeather]

The problem is with the variance of the results. If you have the chance as a player, always roll: If you roll poorly, make a moon druid. If you roll really well, do something else (Paladins tend to profit disproportionately much from very good rolls). This is the reason I wouldn't allow rolling at my table.

[Zhorn]

As a player I'm always in favor of rolling, but as a DM I offer both options.

Point buy I use the expanded costs that are default on the chicken dinner point buy calculator (3 to 18 instead of just 8 to 15).

Rolls are 4d6 drop lowest six times, with a forced reroll if:

You don't have at least one score of 15+
Your total modifiers tallied up are negative


But if someone has opted to roll, I lock them in to rolling. None of this "I'll try for a roll and fall back on point buy if I don't get a great roll". If they can switch then it undermines the risk/reward fun of rolling.

My latest group has been pretty happy with what they've had so far. 3 point buys, three rolls (only 1 reroll).

[Jophiel]

Option 2 just leads to higher overall scores by eliminating any risk to rolling. I never saw the point of rolling if you're just going to cheese it into "Well, see if you're average or above average". I'd go with Option 1 (or would more likely want them to all just use point buy).

[Gilrad]

An important thing to remember about rolling versus point buy is that PB has an inherent cap (15 base, 17 after racial boosts). That low starting cap leaves lots of ASI pressure, kind of a "you can't get everything you want by level 12" feeling.

That level 4 ASI is slam dunk going to be a feat if you're at 18, 19 or especially 20 in your primary stat. Choosing a feat is a much more difficult choice if it means another four levels of a piddly +3 in your primary stat.

I've seen it suggested a lot when DMs want to give players something special at level one (feats, higher PB, ect.), Respect the starting cap of 17.

[Aquillion]

I would add to this that allowing players to start with 20 in a stat absolutely unbalances the early levels a bit. The game is designed under the assumption of a 17 max - if your entire party has 20's, they will stomp level-appropriate challenges for their first few levels a lot more thoroughly than they would otherwise.

Like, say... your chance of missing a 12 AC monster goes from 30% to 20%. One out of every three "intended" misses now hits.

Similarly, when your save DC goes from 13 to 15, a monster with a +0 save mod goes from a 40% chance of saving to 30% - one in four missed saves becomes a success.

(People summarize the numbers as "5% per point", but that's not necessarily the most useful way of looking at it, as the above shows - going from a 20% chance of missing to a 10% chance effectively halves the risk that you'll miss. And when talking about saves in particular, where one failed save can change the entire encounter, that can be a big deal.)

At higher levels this evens out somewhat because the game assumes you'll hit the cap anyway, and the numbers are large enough that high secondary stats has less relative impact.

[LuccMa]

I have tried different methods and by FAR the best was pooling.

Have every player roll 4d6, drop lowest. After everyone is done, put all those rolls into one big pool - than every player gets to pick one score until everyone has picked one - then it goes back around the other way. Repeat that until everyone has 6 scores.

Using this method the ability scores for the players are not exactly the same (every character having a 6 is kinda stupid) but are pretty much equal in strength. My players and i cant think of a different way of rolling for attributes.
One thing to note is that you have to make sure not everyone rolls 10-14, those pools get boring and should be discarded.

If you are a inexperienced DM i would suggest you point-buy, though. That way the CR-calculations have more use to you.

[Keravath]

An important thing to remember about rolling versus point buy is that PB has an inherent cap (15 base, 17 after racial boosts). That low starting cap leaves lots of ASI pressure, kind of a "you can't get everything you want by level 12" feeling.

That level 4 ASI is slam dunk going to be a feat if you're at 18, 19 or especially 20 in your primary stat. Choosing a feat is a much more difficult choice if it means another four levels of a piddly +3 in your primary stat.

I've seen it suggested a lot when DMs want to give players something special at level one (feats, higher PB, ect.), Respect the starting cap of 17.

This is actually the main balance consideration of rolling vs point buy or standard array.

The MOST any character can have in the primary stat in tier 1 is an 18 or 19 after the level 4 ASI using the point buy or standard array systems. The highest they can start with is a 16 or 17.

Using rolled scores, if a variant human starts with a 17 in their primary stat then a 1/2 feat and ASI at level 4 will boost them to 20. This will typically put them ahead of the power curve for to hit, damage and spell DCs all the way to level 8 when most characters who don't take a feat will have the opportunity to hit 20 in their primary stat. If they take a feat along the way this typically gets pushed back to level 12.

P.S. I liked the rolling suggestions with constraints as opposed to rolling with point buy as a fallback.
e.g.
- at least one 15+
- total modifier value at least equal to some number (e.g. 0, 1, 2 etc)
- minium score in any stat of 6 or 8 (whatever you like but I find characters with a very low stat aren't really playable from a role playing perspective ... of course you can walk the character around .. but, in my opinion, a 3 or a 4 in any stat might be expected to severely constrain role playing options ... though some folks don't bother with the significance of stats unless they need to make a roll affected by that stat).

[Laserlight]

An important thing to remember about rolling versus point buy is that PB has an inherent cap (15 base, 17 after racial boosts). That low starting cap leaves lots of ASI pressure, kind of a "you can't get everything you want by level 12" feeling.


And you can't get it after L12 either, because most campaigns don't last that long. Which is why I tend to be generous with feats.

I'd say "everyone rolls, you can use anyone's rolls."

I have done "roll with point buy backup"; the guy who rolled 12 12 12 11 11 11 used PB. The group I DM for all prefer to roll. I think arithmetic is a bit of a strain for a couple of them.

[Sigreid]

I would and do let my players chose between rolling, point buy and standard array. Everyone rolls, but you don't roll and then decide that you're unhappy with your rolls you get to pick one of the other options. To me that would defeat the purpose and appeal of rolling. You'd have to roll really, really atrociously for me to void your rolls.

[2D8HP]

"..All players roll their set of ability scores 4d6drop1.
Examine the results.
They are then asked: "which set of scores to you all want?"..."


That's brilliant!

[Tanarii]

I would add to this that allowing players to start with 20 in a stat absolutely unbalances the early levels a bit. The game is designed under the assumption of a 17 max - if your entire party has 20's, they will stomp level-appropriate challenges for their first few levels a lot more thoroughly than they would otherwise.
Given the PHB presents the choice as rolling, or if you prefer standard array, a claim that the game isn't balanced around rolling flies in the face of what's printed.

[ccjmk]

If you expect players to be stuck with their PCs for longer than a month or so, I'd err on the side of #2. If you're running a one-shot, or a campaign where they're allowed to have multiple PCs and just pick which one they bring on any given adventure, then the stakes are lower and you can afford to require #1.

I'd actually default to Standard Array if they don't want their rolls.. So roll, else Standard Array. Point Buy is just too good, and would be an un fair plan B.

[Jophiel]

Given the PHB presents the choice as rolling, or if you prefer standard array, a claim that the game isn't balanced around rolling flies in the face of what's printed.
On the other hand, what the PHB says is to roll (4d6k3)x6 which gives, on average, an array close to the standard array (and puts you close to the 17 max under most circumstances). What it doesn't say is to Roll (4d6k3)x9, keep the best six unless none are better than a 15 or your neighbor has even better numbers before totaling them up and seeing if they equal at least 90, yadda yadda as people tend to cheese the "rolling" process. That results in significantly higher average arrays than the PHB presumably intends and that is what becomes unbalancing.