MitD XIII: Learning is happening

[Grey_Wolf_c]

WARNING: This Thread WILL contain spoilers.
Smallprint: If you are unwilling to hear what MitD might be, or segments from the published books (specially SoD) then this is not a thread for you.
Everyone else: don't bother spoilering or hiding that stuff in this thread. It is what we are here for

ATTENTION: Newcomers, please read:
This thread has, over the last 500+ pages, accumulated a lot of knowledge about MitD. However, you don't need to read the whole thread (and the previous ones) to get up to speed. So long as you are reasonably familiar with these first five posts, you can jump right in, with no need to read more than the last few pages. On the other hand, please don't be surprised if your insight has been proposed before.


For relevant MitD canon and in-depth analysis of central MitD scenes, check section 1
For specific characteristics of MitD, check section 2
To see all suggestions so far (and particularly, if your idea has been mentioned before), check section 3
Thread rules and FAQ, check section 4

If you want to propose a new creature, consider using the following question template:

1) How did [insert suggestion here] punch Miko and her horse through a wall?
2) Why didn't Miko or Belkar's weapons hurt [insert suggestion here]?
3) Why wouldn't a wizard recognize [insert suggestion here]?
4) Why would humans become nauseous at seeing [insert suggestion here]?
5) How did [insert suggestion here] teleport V and O-Chul to the beach with Hinjo?



Section 1: General Information
Section 1a: Directly from Rich
Rich's Words on MitD
I've been imagining the scene for MITD's eventual reveal for like nine years now

So, just so everyone is clear: I know exactly what the Monster in the Darkness is. I have (almost) always known. Its first two or three appearances were before I had worked out much of the plot's details, so at that point, I just figured it was a mystery I would never answer. Once I started developing the real story that I was telling, around strip #100, I figured out what the monster really was and have been dropping hints ever since. (Note that nothing from before strip #100 actually contradicts the truth of what it is, either.) [...]I now know exactly when and why the monster will reveal itself, too ... don't expect it any time soon, though. Sorry. There's a lot of story left, and that little tidbit will need to wait to close to the end.
I will say this much: It is possible to guess.
That is, it isn't something I just made up for the story. It wouldn't be any fun for the answer to a mystery to be something I invented just for one purpose, would it? I won't finally throw back the darkness and have someone say, "Look! It was a therblewurkersaurus the entire time!" or some other made-up monster.
I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually.

[O-Chul] breaks himself out of the cage, he drives off Redcloak with a lucky shot, and most importantly, he has won the trust of the monster in the darkness over the course of months. So much so that the monster digs deep and discovers powers that he didn't even know he had in order to save him.

A lot of people have asked me whether there is any actual answer to the mystery of the Monster in the Darkness that could possibly satisfy after so many years of wondering and guessing and weighing characteristics against existing monsters and otherwise just generally thinking about it.
The answer to that question is yes. Yes, there is.

I was able explore the idea that the monster itself isn’t really aware of all of its capabilities. In #374, it tries to tap Miko lightly, but fails.

Notes:
Strip 100 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0100.html) came out Sep 2, 2004, so no creature first published after that time can be considered.
"It is possible to guess." Any number of people have jumped to the conclusion that it means that MitD must be a famous or iconic creature. The phrase warrants no such conclusion. Instead, all it says is that MitD exists listed somewhere outside OotS - nothing more and nothing less. As such, the iconic status of an idea, or lack thereof, is of no weight whatsoever when considering its fitness as MitD's species.
"someone will figure it out": related to the above, it specifies that what Rich means by "guess" is not "throwing darts while blindfolded" type of guess, but a rational, follow the clues to a conclusion process. "A potted plant that was eaten and spat out by the Snarl, giving it eyes, a horrible appearance, great strength and the ability to teleport, and look, it can be guessed- I just did!" might fit the first meaning, but not the second.

Rich's Words on Fidelity to D&D Rules
I barely even reference the 3.5 rules anymore, using them just to determine what sort of spells or class abilities a character might have and then ignoring them the rest of the time.

Notes:

Rich has made mistakes with the powers a character can have (Tsukiko's extra school), but has admitted they are mistakes. The fact he admits it is one, in addition to this quote, indicates that Rich does not routinely give characters powers they wouldn't normally have. In addition, MitD's guessing game would require him to be more careful, not less, about what abilities and powers it displays, such as immunity to mind control.

Published Canon
Stereotyped Big Game Hunters, when they capture MitD:
Monocle: "My gods, is it talking? In Common, no less!"
Jenkins: "Unbelievable!"
Monocle: "Well, that will surely fetch a fine price."
Jenkins: "Indeed!"
Monocle: "I tell you, Jenkins, I never expected to see one of these in this part of the world."
Jenkins: "Quite!"
Monocle: "One-in-a-lifetime catch, Jenkins[...]"
Circus, when the public looks upon MitD:

Human male: "Oh my gods..."
Human Male: "It's horrible!"
Human Female: "And yet... beautiful!"
Human Female Child: "Mommy, I feel funny looking at it"
Human Male: "Blerrch!" (throwing up)
Human Male in wizard's clothing: "I've never seen anything like it!" :smallconfused:
Goblin Female Child: "Wooooooo!"
Goblin Male Child: "YEAH!"
Rest of the public:
3 Human Males, 2 Human Females and 1 Halfling Male look: :smalleek:
1 Human Male has "queasy" mouth, as if about to throw up
1 Human Male has closed his eyes and is attempting to cover them with his hands
2 Goblin Males (RightEye and his oldest son) are unimpressed

RedCloak, admitting he knows what MitD is:


I know what you are. You could kill them all if you wanted.

Xykon's first look at MitD:

:xykon: "My you're one ugly sonofabitch, aren't you?"

Xykon's wording of the mind-controlling spell on MitD:

:xykon: "And if Redcloak ever betrays me, you will devour him whole and spit out that gold amulet he wears."

Nature of the darkness around MitD:

Xykon: Did you see him yet?
RedCloak: He's permanently shrouded in magical darkness. How exactly was I supposed to "see him yet"?


Section 1b: The Circus SceneThe circus scene is, as befits the most MitD-centric moment in the comic, full of clues:
The public's reactions: note they are not fear, but disgust. Vomiting, queasy faces and exclamations of ugliness do not match reactions of people scared (that would be brown pants, yellow pools under the stands, and attempts to run away).
MitD's Actions: none. it is quite explicitly told he is doing nothing. Activated abilities thus are unlikely to explain this scene
Recognition: The show depends on MitD not being recognisable (billed as such), and this aspect reinforced with the guy in robes saying he's never seen anything like MitD before.
Section 1c: The Escape
Link to the scene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html)
It can't be dimension door or blink because those spells have pityable ranges (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0812.html).
Teleport and Greater Teleport in the standard rules require the caster to go along with the other subjects of the spell. We have seen teleport work this way in OOTS here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0366.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0377.html), and also here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html) we get to see two teleports work this way. In fact there, there are two casters, presumably one divine (raise dead) and one arcane (teleport). Then Soul Spliced V casts (presumably) Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0649.html) and travels along too (though we don't actually see the spell cast, just the resultant "pop"). Finally when we see Epic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0643.html) Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html), even then the caster (and his spliced spirits) go along for the ride. So although it doesn't absolutely prove that Rich insists the caster always goes along when they Teleport, it really seems to suggest that is the way it works in OOTS, which is the standard D&D rules. Teleport also requires the caster to know the destination, although when that is not the case, a lucky (i.e. plot-induced) roll in the missed teleportation table could have delivered V & O'Chul to the right place anyway.
It has been suggested that a dimensional anchor/lock cast on MitD's box would prevent him from teleporting, but not from casting it. There is no evidence that such spell has been cast on the box, since the visual effect is a green aura and coloring (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html) that is not present on either, but MitD himself may have been hit by the stray (Quickened) Dimensional Anchor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html) cast by V during the preceding battle.
In the Scruf and Tumble short story (in GDGU), the carbuncle befriended by Mr. Scruffy teleported (likely with a SU-type Dimension Door (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/carbuncle/)) him without going along, suggesting that at least Dimension Door in OotS doesn't require the caster to go along
Alternatively, the Forbiddance spell provides a similar effect to that of dimension lock without the visual component, but would require it to be awkwardly placed to only cover MitD's box, since it doesn't hurt V - this would be a very strange use of a spell designed to cover a whole area from teleport. The chance of MitD remembering the password are slight, too, which would mean he'd be damaged every time he entered the box.
Standard teleporting rules do require the caster to touch any other travelers, but the rule is not observed in OotS (see any of the prior examples)
MitD could have the ability to grant Greater Teleport or its equivalent to its target, rather than cast it himself, thus leading to V or O-Chul casting it to get them out of there (although O-Chul wouldn't know where to take them anymore than MitD would, and it seems unlikely MitD would target V with that ability)
Standard 3.5 edition D&D rules say Plane Shift can be cast so that the caster does not travel along for the ride. However it also says you MUST go to another plane, not another place on the same plane and that "precise accuracy as to a particular arrival point on the intended plane is nigh impossible". Also that "creatures must find their own way back". O-Chul and V make no mention of "getting back" and have no apparent means to plane shift. Note that in most occasions plane shift has been depicted with a kind of "window (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html)" opening, but not always (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html). It has been suggested that MitD could have plane-shifted them to a good plane (e.g. Souther Gods' domain), and then where teleported back by an agent of good.
Wish and the psionic ability "reality revision" are stated as being able to "Transport Travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions".
Miracle can "Move you and your allies along with your and thier gear from one plane to another through planar barriers to a specific locale with no chance of error".
Limited Wish doesn't say anything about travelling or transportation explicitly.
The Epic Spell "Dreamscape" could be interpreted as providing the "Escape" capabilitiy, (see Dream Larva)
Psionics has equivalent teleportation abilities to all of the above. DaggerPen compiled a fairly complete list here.
Creatures who have the ability might have captured Ganonron after he was expelled from V, and forced him to cast the teleport (other than being theoretically possible, no monster has been found capable of doing so other than the Parshendi that came out in 2014, and there is no evidence that this scenario took place)
Selecting the Destination: Wish and Miracle have no issues with the destination of the escape. Teleport and Greater Teleport, on the other hand, do not easily explain how MitD was able to send them to a place he does not know about (teleport can only target places, not individuals). Possibilities:
MitD also used some form of Trace Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/traceTeleport.htm) to send them to where V came from
MitD "rolled" on the Mishap table due to False destination, and got 'Similar Area', which placed them in the right place


Section 1d: The Tower Scene
Link to the scene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html)
It is likely that Rich bent the rules of D&D to show the point about MitD being both amazingly strong and a credible threat to the OotS. Nevertheless, Nerdanel has done an analysis of the feats and strength necessary for the scene to work in accordance to the rules. Find the relevant posts here, here and here.

Section 1e: MitD's Alignment
The best that can be said about MitD's species' alignment is that it is unlikely to be Good, since RedCloak would not have recruited a Good creature to protect the goblin village given his rather dim views on the Good alignment.

This, however, is a very weak argument, since it can be argued that MitD was not, at the time, Good. Also, consider that MitD's alignment and his species' need not match (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html). As such, knowing MitD's actual alignment brings us no closer to knowing his species' alignment and, thus, for the purposes of this thread, this is a barren path of inquiry.

The only exception to this is alignment when applied to morality plane denizens (i.e. angels, demons, etc.). Rich commented on this topic in DStP:

It's important to note that this doesn't necessarily make Celia right in her views. Heck, they're not even all that consistent, considering she has been known to fly off the handle and zap people from time to time. Because, see, Celia isn't a deva or an angel; she's not an embodiment of Law or Good. She can mistakes and screw up, and she can fail to live up to her own ideals, as she does later when she finds herself cheering while Haley shoots people. She wants to be a pacifist, but she can get caught up in the excitement of battle the same as anyone else.


The entire point of their organization is to blur the lines between the the three fiendish races (demon, daemon, devil) and depict cooperation where normally one would expect backbiting and betrayal. So here, we have a slightly less neutral daemon, a slightly more chaotic devil, and a slightly more lawful demon (one who went to college with devils, even).

From the above, we know that angels and demons (unlike other outsiders) are embodiments of their own morality planes. Yes, they can change their alignment, but only slightly, and when doing so it serves the purposes of their other alignment. And even then, it is a very rare and line-pushing experiment. The embodiments of the morality planes are as follows:



Lawful Evil: Baatezu/Devils
Lawful Neutral: Formians, Inevitables, Modrons
Lawful Good: Archons


Neutral Evil: Yugoloths/Daemons
True Neutral: Rilmani
Neutral Good: Guardinals


Chaotic Evil: Tanar'ri/Demons
Chaotic Neutral: Slaadi
Chaotic Good: Eladrin



Since MitD has performed both good and evil acts, it is very unlikely he is an embodiment of either Good or Evil.
Section 1f: MitD's ScoresIt has proven almost impossible to nail down what MitD's scores might be. The general agreement is that his strength must be past 30, his INT must be high (to account for his ability to learn quickly), his Wisdom be low (to account with his innocence and bad judgement) and his Charisma high (to account for the "beautiful" comment).

However, it is equally likely that he will be a near-epic creature, and as such his scores are going to be all-around high (by human standards).
Section 1g: (Not) Seeing the Gates
MitD's inability to "see" the gates is felt by several participants to be a "clue" about MitD (rather than the alternative possibility, Rule of Funny). However, no explanation that ties MitD's species to the gates has been forthcoming, except when contemplating the idea of MitD being part of the Snarl.

Alternatively, it has been proposed that since the demiplane in which the Snarl is trapped is designed to null divine magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html), and it is third-handedly established in SoD that the gods have difficulty in detecting the rifts, there might be some connection between MitD and the gods that makes him, too, unaware of the rift. Note, however, that MitD has an issue seeing the definitely-not-Snarl-related gate that Xykon installed to stop his zombies from walking into and being destroyed by the rift, so this connection is quite far-fetched.

Finally, it must be pointed out that MitD doesn't have a problem actually seeing the physical object that is the gate. Instead, his words seem to suggest that he doesn't know it is one. It has been suggested this might be because he thinks the only definition of "gate" is the portal that opens when the spell gate is cast. If he has been told that is a gate (and he probably had seen the spell before, when he previously saw the Astral Plane (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html)), he would be confused as to why he can't see one near the massive wooden thing Xykon and RC keep pointing at.
Section 1h: Recognising MitD (in-comic)There have been two alternative explanations for the Hunter's + Circus scene and the differing reactions to MitD when looked at.

On one hand, the Hunter's scene can be seen as a lampshade hanging of MitD's ability to talk, i.e. an express admission of Rich that he shouldn't, just to get it over with and ignored thereafter. The hunters see a creature that is rare, powerful, strangely non-threatening and decide to sell it. They mention it talks, and from then on Rich need not keep pointing out this fact. The circus scene builds on this, letting us know MitD is revolting to look at (or smelled, or some other passive characteristic).

On the other hand, MitD could be a shifter. The Hunters may have seen a creature that couldn't talk, because MitD was adopting the shape of one, and was sold under the guise of one such creature. The circus crowd would likewise see either a revolting creature, or one that is shifting uncontrollably, such that the change is both revolting and, for some, beautiful (like a kaleidoscope). RC would recognise MitD for what he is, a creature that both shifts and can talk, explaining why he is not surprised by this last fact. Note that while this works on paper as an explanation, no creature that fits it has ever been proposed.
Section 1i: Recognising MitD (by readers)Some people have argued that the MitD must be easily recognized because they feel it would detract from the eventual reveal if the readers cannot immediately identify its species (usually, this is countered by the argument that the reveal will likely be a dramatic moment for MitD which, while it might require a specific ability, will not be centered upon MitD's species, but his growth as a character).

Other people have argued that the MitD cannot be easily-recognized because it seems unlikely that Rich would select something easily guessable when part of the purpose of MitD was to provide a challenge to what, at the time, was a very D&D-centric readership. Faced with such an audience, Rich, they argue, would likely go for a challenging creature that would keep them (us) guessing for years to come.

Finally, some more people think that the fame of the creature is irrelevant, because nothing in Rich's words suggest that he must be famous or must be obscure and thus, unless he chooses to clarify, it is not a demonstrable characteristic upon which to build a hypothesis.
Section 1j: Suspicion of MitD's involvement in the escapeWhy wasn't MitD suspected for the escape beyond the demon roaches? RC, the resident know-it-all and most likely to connect the dots was not present for the escape - he used Word of Recall and only returned once the action was over. We also do not know how much Xykon knows about MitD. We only have MitD's word that Xykon knows what he is, and even then, given Xykon's attitude towards book knowledge, he probably only knows MitD's species name and the fact that he is strong, and thus powerful (power (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html) is all Xykon cares about). If so, Xykon would not know MitD can teleport, and likely thinks him too incompetent (and too asleep) to be responsible. All in all, the scene seems carefully orchestrated so that MitD could save O-Chul and V without giving himself away.
Section 1k: The meaning of Fine LineFor a wide variety of reasons, a number of participants feel that the "fine line" comment is meant to be a clue about MitD's authorship:

I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one
The reasoning goes that the phrase itself is unnecesary, the general understanding of it (i.e. Rich didn't create MitD) is addressed well enough in the context, and thus the retreading of the point actually hints to something not quite so clear cut - usually interpreted that Rich did have a hand in MitD's creation (because he helped craft the manual it is in, for example) or because he created it, but not for OotS.

On a strictly logical way, it is true that the sentence is somewhat redundant in context. However, it is also Rich's way of admitting that, to most of his readers, his assurance that he personally didn't create MitD is a cop-out since when MitD is revealed, he might as well have - the line he intends to draw between fantasy monsters created by him and others is fine indeed.

As a practical matter, even if the above interpretation is correct, and it is a subtle hint that Rich did in fact create MitD is some indirect way, it has never as a theory born fruit. To date no creatures have been brought forth with "partially authored by Rich" as a point in their favour.
Section 1l: MitD's Hand in #555?Unfortunately, what we see in Panel 1 in strip 555 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) is not MitD's hand, but the bucket's handle

Version History

1 - MitD - What We Know (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?114313)
2 - MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?134194)
3 - MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?156178)
4 - MitD IV: I Can't Believe it's Not Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?189676)
5 - MitD V: MitD and the Templates of Doom (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?231404)
6 - MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?253731)
7 - MitD 007: GoldenEyes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?293047)
8 - MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?347800)
9 - Summon MitD IX: Roll in Section 3a (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?488773)
10 - MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?494708)
11 - MitD XI: A Good Man (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?563198)
12 - MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?578378-MitD-XII-This-Space-Intentionally-Left-Dark)
13 - MitD XIII: Learning is happening

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Section 2: MitD
Section 2a: Physical Characteristics
AgeMitD's first appearance in SoD happens "29 years ago" (SoD pg. 49). This is measured back from comic 1, so MitD is at least 30 years old.

From his keeper's comments about how long he has been fed stew every day, we know MitD spent more than five years in the circus.
AppearanceMitD's appearance is both disgusting and beautiful, to judge from the reactions of the circus crowd (see 1a SoD Canon). It is ugly enough to provoke vomiting in the stands, but still cause someone to exclaim "And yet... beautiful".
Oona the Beastmaster compares him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html) to a creature out of a spicy meat-induced nightmare, although she also calls him magnificent.

It has been suggested it could be because in 1st edition, an evil creature with CHA -1 had the same CHAR bonus as a good one with CHA 24
BodyRedCloak suggests (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html) that he could use MitD as material to create undead, which suggests he has a physical body (e.g. not a fire elemental)
MitD's ability to laugh (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0097.html) indicates he has lungs
DietMitD is almost constantly hungry (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), thus probably indicating a species that requires food (but it isn't stated).
Take into account:

He is not at all picky about his food, having been shown to eat almost anything ("His palate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) can't be that refined", dibs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) on a moldy cheeseburguer in sock drawer).
He has preference for stew (See SoD, and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html)).
He feels weird to eat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0549.html) babies (including veal), but not adults (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0117.html).
He has eaten scrabble (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) tiles, and apparently didn't find them to his taste (but he was expecting donuts)

GenderMitD self-identifies as male, forming clubs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0549.html) that don't allow girls. Also, O'Chul calls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0654.html) him "a good man"
Head

Eyes: MitD has two yellow eyes, next to each other. They are consistently drawn as larger than those of medium-sized creatures, closer to that of ogres (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0215.html) (while still being more or less at medium-sized height, but he might be crouched under the umbrella)
Face: RC makes reference to stabbing him in the face (War and XPs, page 415a)
Mouth: MitD presumably has a mouth, since he has a tongue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html) and teeth (that leave toothmarks in a taco in SoD). It must be rather large, since Xykon instructs him to "devour [RedCloak] whole"
Olfactory organ: smells by sniffing while holding the bag close to below his two eyes (but could be his mouth, rather than a nose)
Teeth: munches its food. And its voice is deformed while speaking with its mouth full


LimbsMitD has got stomping (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html) ability while holding an umbrella. No specific limbs are identified (feet/paws/tail?), but the use of the verb stomp requires physical limbs, whatever they are. The limbs are also dextrous enough to hold crayons (War and XPs page 415a) and draw (lack of quality may indicate clumsy apendages, or lack of maturity).

Since he was able to both step on and pull on the rope (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html) at the same time, he must have or be able to produce at least two limbs, one of which must be prehensile.

He is capable of holding a bucket of paint and a brush on opposite sides of his face, suggesting he probably has two symmetrical prehensile appendages.

In the Earthquake scene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), the stomp suggests he is either bipedal and crouched over, or quadrupedal.

Finally, what is visible in Panel 1 of strip 555 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) is not a limb, but the bucket's handle.
MaturityMitD has consistently acted in very immature fashion, which could be his personality, or it could indicate he is a child of his species.
Take into account:

Oona the Beastmaster believes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html) he will grow bigger
He is over 30 years old (see Age)
He hasn't changed all that much in size or personality since his earliest appearance
Many creatures (including demons and angels) have a really hard time fitting as MitD because of his child-like behaviour.
Rich is unlikely to have him be too young - he dislikes the idea of creatures with the personality of a 4 year old having an alignment. MitD acts more like a 12 year old.

Personal Odor MitD has frequently apologized for his personal odor. This could explain the reaction in the circus, although it would need to address the reason why the odor doesn't affect the public until after he is lighted up.
It has been suggested that MitD's personal smell could be a hint towards the Stench (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/troglodyte.htm) ability
SizeSince his first appearance, MitD has fit in a box this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0541.html) size, and under this umbrella (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0147.html). This makes him human-sized or large (http://dnd.wikia.com/wiki/Large). He is also shorter than Oona (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html), who is Medium (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bugbear.htm) sized.
Take into account:

Rich has been known to mess around with sizes of creatures in the comic (Inexplicably large (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0617.html) faeries), but to this date he has only made small creatures larger, never larger ones smaller than they should be.
MitD could be a young member of his race (see Maturity)
Oona the Beastmaster believes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html) he will grow bigger
He's probably taller than a kobold:

Mitd: "I know! Maybe I'm a kobold!"
BlueCloak: "You're pretty tall for a kobold"
MitD: "Maybe I'm two kobolds?"
If you do not object to using templates (see 3a: Templated Creature), the Dungeonbred template can be used to reduce his size by one category, theoretically allowing for huge creatures (but does carry the disadvantages of templates)

SleepMitD has been shown sleeping in various occasions (in SoD, and after O'chul's and V's teleportation), and has admitted to becoming sleepy, so it is reasonable to assume he requires sleep (but it isn't stated).
WeightRC was able to lift both MitD and his box onto a cart. This is almost certainly an exaggeration of RC's lifting ability for the purposes of moving the plot forwards, but a detailed examination of the issue was attempted starting here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13829249#post13829249). The conclusion reached is that if Rich wasn't bending the rules, and if the box was made of a light wood (such as pine), and RC was using a spell to boost his strength [Divine Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm) gives +6], and he has average or slightly above average strength for a goblin (he is unlikely to have more than that, since he is a pure caster), MitD's weight should be that of a medium creature, tops. (See my numbers here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13842268&postcount=102))

Section 2b: Abilities
AttackMitD attempts to "hit as lightly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) as possible" and still sends both Miko and her horse flying through a wall, off a tower and long distance (the tower in nowhere to be seen, the mountains are far away).
Take into account:

If proposing a "child" or "runt" of a species known for great strength, the dissonance between his undeveloped personality and adult strength needs to be addressed.
See here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7838816&postcount=629) a post examining possible ways the punch could have happened by the rules.


DefencesMitD did not notice 5 attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html) from Belkar and feels tickles (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) when attacked by Miko.
Take into account:

It could indicate piercing/slashing resistance, DR, high AC, high HP or a combination thereof.
He got a paper cut (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html) from trying to eat a letter, indicating he can hurt himself (e.g. overcoming epic resistance, if he himself is epic, or indicating a natural armour that doesn't protect his insides), or Rule of Funny
Miko believes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) he has DR
RC knows he cannot possibly injure MitD by stabbing him in the face (see War and XPs, page 415a)

Earth CrackingMitD cracks the earth by stomping on it.
Suggestions:

Consequence of his great strength: sending horses flying through walls and for kilometers take about as much strength as causing the Earth to crack.
Earthquake ability: like that of an Earth Elemental, or some other specific spell-like ability in that sense such as Wreck Earth (http://dndtools.eu/spells/players-handbook-ii--80/wrack-earth--2982/)

KnowledgeEven though MitD displays lack of maturity (see 2a: Maturity), he has displayed flashes of brilliance:
O'Chul's comment he learnt Go! quickly
His ability to tell that a ritual (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html) was only the second half of a whole
His right-on-the-money Political Analysis (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html)
He admits (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html) he doesn't actually try to think, and that he lets Xykon and RedCloak think for him
If MitD is psionic, it can be explained by hypercognition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hypercognition.htm)
O'Chul's EscapeWe know from Rich's words (see section 1a) that MitD was responsible for O'Chul's and V's escape (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html).
Suggestions:

Teleportation Spell: in D&D, teleportation requires the spell caster to travel with the targets, and more often than not to be touching the other targets.
Wish: Very few creatures can cast wish, but would explain the situation well. In its favour, MitD is surprised (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html) when his wishes don't come true (but that could be his child personality).
Plane shifting: Many creatures have this spell, but has most of the disadvantages of teleportation, plus O'Chul's and V's escape does not match the effect of plane shift (in that they ended up in the same plane)
See also Section 1b for an in-depth analysis of teleportation options in D&D

Take into account:

MitD may have been hit by V's missed dimension anchor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html), explaining why he didn't go along if it was a teleportation effect.
Plane Shift, in particular, doesn't necessarily affect the caster (it has succesfully been used offensively in OotS)
It has been pointed out that if it were a spell, MitD would have had to say its name out loud, which typically a spell requires (but not an extraordinary, spell-like ability or supernatural ability, nor a psionic power). On the other hand, not all spells have been said out loud in-comic (example: Xykon's mental suggestion in SoD, Redcloak passing his Trial Of Becoming A Hobgoblin with a silent Slay Living), so it doesn't discard a spell either.
Other systems have spells or abilities named "Escape"

PsionicsIt has been suggested that MitD may have psionic abilities since we never see his limbs holding up objects, and as an avenue to explain his other powers. If he only starts to actively use psionics at the time of escape ("unshackling" his mind due to the stress of the situation), it would also tie with Rich's comment about discovering powers deep inside himself (see Section 1a - Rich's Words). Also, it would explain why he tends to be tired after using his powers.
Take into account:

Most psionics featured in the comic (goblin mind reader (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html), the story of the little psion that could (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0494.html) and a guest appearance in SSaDT), had a purplish aura around their entire heads. However, Laurin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0910.html) has a yellow aura. In both cases, though, the aura surrounds the entire head, where MitD, at best, illuminates his eyes briefly.
During the Go game (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html), his turn starts and end, and yet we don't see him place a counter. Rich may have skipped the dialogue where MitD told O'Chul were to place his counter just to reduce the wordiness of that page, though. There is also no psionic effect line like the ones radiating from Laurin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0930.html)
MitD is unaware of most of his powers, which doesn't suggest his mind is making them happen (so it would only explain the escape, if at all).
RedCloak, who knows what MitD is, had to research (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html) if psionics existed in OotS-verse. If MitD is psionic, why was it so difficult to know? (it has been suggested he may have templated psionic ability, and as such his psionics not be part of his species). On the other hand, creatures can be psionic or not depending on the setting. RC could have known about the mind flayer in Dorukan's Dungeon, and still not know if psionic powers did exist.
If MitD wasn't actively psionic until the escape, it would also constitute an explanation: RC tested him for psionic powers and, finding none, couldn't decide if psionics existed or not.
The lack of visible limbs is likely a combination of the minimalistic drawing style of the comic and Rich's desire to not show us what MitD is.
MitD had to tip the circus cage to get to the bucket of stew; presumably a psionic creature could simply levitate the bucket (but MitD may be unaware of his abilities)
The fact that no hand is seen holding the umbrella is a style issue where the hand is behind the object, rather than around it. Belkar holds his daggers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html) in the same way

RainIt has been suggested that MitD could have (inadvertently) caused rain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) to help O'Chul rest
Raising undeadMitD probably does not have the ability to raise undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html), but might be used as raw material. At the very least, he does not have 5 levels of cleric, although it has been pointed out he may have the capability but due to his innocence/incompetence he has never used it, leading RC to believe he cannot without gaining cleric levels first. That said, RC would probably have checked MitD's MM entry, and be aware of all its powers, regardless of which one MitD uses.
SightMitD's sight is keen enough to be able to recognise Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html) on top of a dragon a catapult-max-range away, without the benefit of a telescope, but does nto see him until he becomes visible, indicating he does not have natural See Invisible ability
SpeechThe Stereotyped Big Game Hunters were surpised MitD could speak, and in common (see 1b SoD Cannon)

This is usually interpreted as a lampshade: his species can't or won't talk, but Rich changed it for plot purposes.
Alternatively, MitD's species could have been confused with a similar species, which while rare and valuable, is not capable of speech.
Note that the wording could indicate both species incapable of speech, and species that normally wouldn't talk (like Zodars).

It has been pointed out that MitD's speech bubbles are black text on white background, unlike demons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html), who tend to have red-on-black and undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0832.html), who tend to have white-on-black. However, there is one demon who has a normal voice, Sabine (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html), so it is probably not a good indicator of species. Rich has confirmed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14733452&postcount=190) that voice "colour" can mislead.
ShoutMitD can shout (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) loud enough that it gives Belkar pause. This may or may not be an actual shout attack, although neither Belkar nor Haley were damaged, but they may have been Shaken, as in Frightful Presence.
Summoning Demon RoachesMitD was not responsible for the Demon Roaches (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0095.html) following team evil - as per SoD, they first attached to Xykon and RC in an evil dinner where Xykon used to get his coffee (in his pre-Lich days). MitD may have attracted more of them, but not the original group. As such, it is unlikely that their presence indicates anything about MitD. That said, the Demon Roaches are 4th-wall breaking rule of funny most of the time, regardless of their origin.
Swallow Whole?In SoD, Xykon orders a mind controlled MitD to devour whole RC if RC double-crosses Xykon. This might indicate that MitD has a swallow whole ability.
Take in account:
Xykon uses the word devour, not swallow, which allows MitD to chew.
Xykon had only just met MitD, and since he isn't interested in reading, he probably would not know what MitD is precisely. Nevertheless, something about MitD (probably a big mouth or similar) suggested to Xykon that MitD would be able to carry out the order.


Section 2c: Other Characteristics
CategoriesMitD cannot belong to any of the following without being an exception to the listed characteristic:

Not a deity (vulnerable to mind-affecting effects)
Not Construct (eats, and desires to eat; sleeps)
Not Elemental (eats, and desires to eat; sleeps)
Not Ooze (has a body)
Not Plant (vulnerable to mind-affecting effects)
Not Undead (eats, sleeps, etc)
Not Vermin (vulnerable to mind-affecting effects)

Several people have remarked that Oona's knowledge of MitD makes it unlikely he is an Outsider - but Oona may have better-than-average knowledge skills from her extended familiarity with Kraagor's Tomb.


Challenge Rating
Rich intends the MitD to be a credible challenge for the heroes - the watchtower scene was included for that reason, as explained by Rich. Since Rich likely has a target level the party will achieve by the time they face MitD, MitD must have a CR at or above this level. As a rule of thumb, CR18 or higher is preferred, Epic levels being better.
See also lothos' analysis (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6669234&postcount=795) of MitD's CR

Connection to the Astral PlaneMitD seems to know the Astral Plane's characteristics (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html).
Considerations:

He doesn't remember having been there
Xykon is surprised at this
It could be just a successful knowledge roll, or that he was taken there at some point in the past
In the past, it displayed extreme ignorance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0699.html) of the planes

DarknessAs per NCftPB (see section 1a - Published Canon), the darkness that surrounds MitD is magical in its nature. Xykon's instructions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0103.html) imply that they are independent of MitD, since he can step or leap out of them (i.e. leave them behind).
Note that D&D rules for line of sight allow for creatures at the edge of magical darkness to see out of it, while remaining concealed.
Drawing CluesEven though MitD is always in darkness, it has been suggested that by carefully noting the placement of his eyes, and of anything he manipulates, his general shape can be deduced. The general consensus is that he is either walking crouched or has four legs on the floor (from the placing of the stomp (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html)), and that he has a long reach (as when pulling on the rope: 9th panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html)). Take into account that this is debatable, and that MitD has not necesarily been drawn consistently (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0105.html)

Since he can turn his eyes around (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html) (panel 11) without turning his entire body, it is possible that MitD has a neck or similar (such as eyestalks) that can move independently of the rest of the body.

Also, it has been brought up multiple times that the go board is a cryptoclue about MitD. Unfortunately, there is no agreement on what image they show, with people having identified it as Tarrasque, PvP's Skull, a demon, or an 8-bit sprite from some NES game (also, one jokingly suggested it looked like Pepe le Pew due to the color scheme). It is likely a case of pareidolia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia)
EnvironmentThe Stereotyped Big Game Hunters were surprised to find him deep in a rainforest. This discards rainforest as his environment, but leaves everything else open.
FamilyMitD remembers his dad "sort of (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html)" as BIG and even a bigger eater than he is.
Considerations:

MitD could have been "adopted" (or even created) by a member of another species completely, just as he is in the wrong environment. If this adoptive parent is of a different alignment from MitD's base species, it could explain MitD's conflict between good and evil.
MitD is still young and will eventually be as big as he remembers his father to have been
MitD might have a warped mental image of his father, from remembering as "big" when MitD himself was smaller; as such, he may already be as big as his father used to be.
MitD is mixed breed, and his father is larger than he will ever be

Knowledge of MitDMitD is very difficult to identify. Only a few individuals have claimed to know what he is:

The Stereotyped Big Game Hunters (SoD) knew he was "one of those" and that it was surprising he could talk (and in common, even)
RedCloak (SoD) stated he knew what MitD is
Oona (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html) compared him to a majestic monster comparable to a kebab-induced nightmare, but smaller than he could be
O-Chul (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1042.html), after his long imprisonment and friendship with MitD, still needed the help of the most knowledgeable scribe available to the Azurites, and even after that, he only has "a theory" (which he does not think Lien or MitD would believe).
MitD believes Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html) also knows what he is, but it's likely Xykon only cares about MitD's strength and looks, rather than detailed knowledge of what MitD can do
What looks like a wizard (SoD) in the circus audience admits he'd never seen anything like it.


It has been suggested that the hunters may have confused MitD with a different, less powerful but similar looking species that nevertheless is still rare. There have been no practical examples of this yet. Stereotypical Big Game Hunters, however, are seldom wrong about their prey.
Mental ResistanceIn SoD (pg.96), Xykon was able to command MitD (as evidenced by MitD's swirly eyes), indicating MitD is not immune to mind-affecting spells.
ReachMitD cannot reach stew or meat left outside his box, but can reach the doors in Kraagor's wall enough to paint them, suggesting his reach is based on free movement rather than long appendages or telekinesis.
SpeciesMitD was declared by the Stereotyped Big Game Hunters to be "one of these", indicating that there are more than one of him.
TracksMitD leaves tracks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0474.html), which Belkar can't identify (but he's a lousy tracker, and even if he wasn't, MitD might have been carrying table, chairs, stuffed animals and a paralized O-Chul at the time, which might have obscured the tracks). However, he leaves no tracks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1041.html) in the snow. The following possibilities have been suggested as an explanation:

He floats/flies
He has some form of permanent pass without trace (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/passWithoutTrace.htm) or water walk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/waterWalk.htm) (note that despite its name, it works on plenty of non-water surfaces, including snow and lava)
The umbrella hides the tracks, in the same way it hides MitD's limbs even when they should be visible (e.g. around the handle) (i.e. it's part of the "we don't get to see any part of MitD until the reveal)


Section 2d: Abilities Augmentation: Templates, Class Levels, etc.A number of ways to increase creatures capabilities to match those shown by MitD have been proposed. All of them have the same general problem: they likely violate Rich's assurance that he didn't invent MitD and that it can be figure out. To illustrate these issues, consider two examples:
BingosaurusThe argument most commonly cited in favour of augmentations is that it is not a Rich creation if Rich merely uses already existing rules to create MitD, such as adding tempaltes, feats, class levels, etc. But there are rules for making your own monsters, spells, etc.

Nothing is stopping Rich from making what is for all intents and purposes a Bingosaurus* complete with an insatiable hunger for stew and yellow eyes, using rules that were published prior to comic #100. He will then furnish it with Bingo's epic earthquake (which functions like a regular earthquake except it is much more awesome and can be aimed in a direction), Wish and Bingo's Commanding You To Stop ability, DC100, at will

*Named after Lord Bingo, original proponent of this counterexample.
Binks' Mystery SwordRelated to the above, the second most common argument in favour of augmentations is that since the rules exist, it can be figured out. By the same logic, a DM could hand a character a custom magic item like Binks' Mystery Sword* and not tell his player what it does because the DM didn't invent it, instead followed the rules, so clearly the player can figure out what it does on his own.

*Named after Binks, original proponent of this counterexample.

The augmentation ideas presented so far are:
FeatsWhen a creature is promoted beyond its base CR, with every 3 HD added, the DM can also add a feat. Of interest to this thread are the two following feats:

Mighty Roar: allows a creature, once per day, to make a dreadful roar that renders everyone nearby shaken for x rounds. Pre-requisite: be an animal or magical beast of at least large size.
Stamp: allows a creature to make a shockwave with a radius of a number of squares equal to their HD. Creatures within the radius that fail a balance check vs the stamper's attack roll are knocked down; structures are also damaged by the shockwave, which could explain the ground being torn up if one is generous with the definition of 'structure'. Prerequisites: have feet, be at least huge size, and have the trample attack.

Cons:

No Wish feat
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since the exact number of extra HD added by "the DM" is not really guessable.
Size issues: MitD is likely Medium sized; while large is possible, huge is likely too big.
MitD is clearly lazy, and thus has little canon support for the idea that he has developed beyond the average of his species (quite the opposite, in fact). His father being bigger than he is also argues against this (more HD eventually makes the monster bigger).


Templated/Mixed lineage Creature
In D&D, a template is not a creature, but rather a number of changes that can be made to any creature meeting the requirements. The changes usually are around a theme. For example, the half-dragon template (applied to creatures with partial draconic parentage) make the creature more draconic, giving it a breath weapon, claws, a bite attack, and some draconic immunities, along with making the creature physically and mentally stronger.

Some templates function more generally, the fiendish template, for example, is used to create races of fauna native to the lower planes, and never originally were the base creature, but instead are a separate (but similar) species. Therefore, not all templates are once-in-a-lifetime combinations fluff-wise (although a half-fiend, half-celestial, half-red, half-blue, half-green, half-silver, fiendish living fireball could hardly be considered anything but a once-in-a-lifetime combination).

More practically, templates can provide practically every ability the MitD has demonstrated (teleportation, strange appearance, physical defenses, great strength, etc). Due to the ability of templates to make practically anything the MitD, this thread has moved away from analyzing specific monster template combinations (of which there are many), and instead will evaluate templates alone as what they could contribute (if there is a published example of a creature with a template, it can be proposed as a creature).

However, templates, like all augmentation, has its drawbacks:

No Wish template before strip #100 (Amidah (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16766329&postcount=994) and other Immortal's Handbook variants came out later)
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since the exact base type and templates use is not really guessable.
Unless the exact combination of templates and base creature has been used elsewhere, it can be argued that an original template stack would be a Rich invention.
Its unlikely that a one-in-a-lifetime combination of templates would be so common that the hunters call it "one of these" (although not all templates require mixed parentage)
No actual evidence of MitD having different species parents (although not all templates require mixed parentage)


Below is a list of templates that can provide abilities the MitD has demonstrated.
Beast of Xvim (Monster Compendium: Monsters of Faerûn)
Summary: A monster blessed by Xvim (and evil god in Forgotten Realms). While it doesn't give any abilities that make it a good candidate to be the MitD, it has a Feed ability similar to that of the Barghest (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/barghest.htm) (only increases HD, but the HD increase is uncapped). See the entry on Phrenic Creature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) for how this is useful. The fluff would need to be redone, as Xvim does not exist in OoTSverse, although the Dark One could be a suitable replacement. Has moderate DR that might be able to explain tower scene defenses, although on its own it cannot explain any other scene.

Advances HD by 1 automatically, gains an additional HD per 8 HD of humanoids slain and eaten.
Makes explicit mention of glowing green eyes. The eyes of the MitD glow yellow. With the adaptation to a different god, arguably the appearance like this could be altered.
In any case, there would be some alteration (which could violate the "not Rich's creation" rule) to make a Beast of Xvim without Xvim.
Gives moderate DR (scaled on HD, /+1, +2, or +3, so unclear what would overcome it after upgrade, which could explain tower scene defense.
Can be applied to any creature, although Xvim prefers "bats, black dogs, black cats, hawks, and vultures, or in monsters such as beholders, green or blue dragons, hell hounds, cockatrices, imps, dark nagas, and undead creatures."

Dungeonbred (Dungeonscape)
Summary: Creature was raised in a dungeon and is smaller than normal. Applied to corporeal aberration, animal, magical beast, or vermin. Makes the creature slightly weaker physically. Doesn't explain any scene, but can allow the MitD to fit in the box or under the umbrella.

Rich was involved in the creation of Dungeonscape, therefore could be his creation, no real way to figure out.
Essentially gives -4 Strength, so it is harder to fit the tower scene.
Eats less than a normal member of his race, as the MitD eats a lot, not all that good a fit.

Fiendish Creature (SRD/MMI) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/fiendishCreature.htm)
Summary: Like normal creature, but native to lower planes. Gets DR/magic, energy resistance, SR, and Smite Good, all scaled with HD. Always evil. Doesn't explain any scenes, although the DR arguably could help provide defenses for Tower Scene (although it is at most 10/magic, so not unlikely Milko would overcome it). Can be applied to corporeal nongood aberrations, animals, dragons, fey, giants, humanoids, magical beasts, monstrous humanoids, oozes, plants, or vermin. Animals and vermin become magical beasts.

Half-Dragon (SRD, MMI, various other books) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm)
Summary: Applied to any corporeal living creature to make it more draconic. Gets breath, claws, bite, and some draconic immunities (paralysis, sleep). Also gets wings if large or larger. Big bonus to Strength (+8), small bonuses (+2) to Con, Int, and Cha. There is a type of half-dragon for practically each type of true dragon, although none of them really do much. The +8 Str means if the base creature's strength is ≥22, it'd have get sufficient tower scene offensive, but other than that, the template doesn't generally help much (there are a bunch of types, it is possible one of them adds something else, if so, bring it up).

Half-Elemental (Manual of the Planes)
Summary: Creature has various elemental traits. Doesn't change appearance much (minor elemental themed things, like an half-earth elemental might get gemstone eyes. Gives a number of SLAs based on HD, none of which really are useful (with the exception of half-earth, which gives earthquake at 13 HD, and could explain the stomp scene). Earth and Water give minor boosts to strength. Can be applied to any corporeal creature with an Int of 4+. Changes type to outsider, gives appropriate elemental subtype. With the exception of the strength boost (+4 and +2 for earth and water respectively), doesn't allow creatures to explain the big scenes, although Half-earth can explain the the stomp with earthquake.

Half-Troll (Fiend Folio)
Summary: Boosts strength, gives a bit of fast healing, bite attack, claw attacks. Can be added to any animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, or outsider, and changes type to giant. Strength boost (+6) lowers the required strength of the base creature (with this template) to explain the tower scene to 24. The fast healing (5) arguably could explain the tower scene defense, although somewhat dubious. The changing type away from outsider allows lots of template stacking, if one so desires. Furthermore, half-trolls are pretty ugly, which could explain the circus scene (but what kind of wizard hasn't heard of trolls?).

Monster of Legend (MMII)
Summary: An animal, magical beast, or monstrous humanoid has a divinely appointed task, and special powers to back it up in accomplishing said task. Changes type to outsider (native). They are unique, so all those things kind of make the (seemingly purposeless and lazy) MitD not seem to fit. The template increases physical strength (+10), and can give fast heal 5 and DR 10/+1 as well, which arguably could explain the escape scene (the strength boost certainly helps, although the fast healing and DR is rather on the low end). Nothing to explain escape. Can get frightful presence, which could explain circus scene, although it is triggered by making "a loud sound (a roar, growl, or other sound appropriate to its form)," hardly what the MitD did.

Paragon Creature (SRD/ELH) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm)
Summary: Generally makes the creature stronger, better faster. Gives fast healing and DR which can explain the tower scene. Boosts ability scores, attacks, damage, AC, saves, skill checks which can qualify an otherwise weaker monster (ex: Genie) as a threat to a near epic-level party. Does not change physical appearance or grant teleportation ability, so cannot explain escape or circus scene. Does not change creature type. Can be added to anything.

+15 Strength allows any base creature with Strength ≥15 meet strength requirement for tower scene offense.
Fast healing 20, DR 10/epic, maximized HP, +15 Con, and +12 HP/HD on top of that (along with +12 luck and +12 insight bonus to AC) can explain the defenses in the tower scene for pretty much anything.
The +25 luck bonus to hit and +20 luck bonus to damage could be argued to be a cause for the MitD "accidentally" hitting a horse through the wall.
There is no real evidence of the MitD being exceptionally competent for a member of his species. In fact, Team Evil seems to think of him as sort of a disappointment. Without saying the MitD is exceptional, there is no real way to convey it is Paragon.

Phrenic Creature (SRD/Expanded Psionics Handbook) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm)
Summary: The creature happens to be psionic. It can be applied to any not mindless creature that doesn't already have the psionic subtype. It provides various PLAs (Psi-like abilities) based off HD. The important thing for the MitD is psionic teleport 3/day (just like normal teleport, but psionic) at 15+ HD, which can explain the escape scene. It does not say it alters appearance (although larger than normal brains is a common trait to denote psionic ability), but probably cannot explain the circus scene, and provides no boosts to physical attack or defense to explain the tower scene.

Gives PLAs, ML=HD. At 15 HD, gives psionic teleport 3/day which serves as an adequate explanation (likely arriving at a "similar area", possibly the MitD originally had a false destination making it more likely.
It has been argued the MitD's eyes glowing with the Escape are more similar to psionics than other magic.
We had no real evidence of the MitD being psionic, and the template makes no physical distinction between the base creature, potentially violating "can be figured out" even more than templates in general.

Pseudonatural Creature (SRD/ELH) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/pseudonaturalCreature.htm)
Summary: Makes the creature a cosmic horror. Explains circus scene with alternate form. It can fit tower scene for ~90% of proposed candidates (Strength ≥8), but can't explain the escape. Can be applied to any corporeal creature. Makes the creature an Outsider (extraplanar)

Can be added to any corporeal creature.
Gives +22 strength, at least 35 natural armor, and DR/epic scaling with HD. This allows pretty much any creature with over 8 strength to fit the tower scene (although the more HD initially, the better).
Has an alternate form specified to be "a grotesque, tentacled mass (or another appropriately gruesome form)," which can explain the circus scene. Alternate form imposes morale penalty on attacks against the monster, but nothing huge like dying of fright or confusion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html).
Does not provide explanation for the Escape (its Dimensional Door ability has a range of 1200 ft).



Radiant Creature (DR321)
Summary: Creature native to the "plane of radiance." Gets DR/magic and fast healing 2 (while in light), which kind of poorly explains defenses in tower scene. Gives some light-based SLAs (nothing we've seen the MitD use). Main draw is dazzling aura (dazzles creatures within 30 ft that fail a will save) to explain the circus scene. Boost to charisma (+6) might make it more beautiful. Strobe lights can cause dizziness and other such things, so that could explain why some people had a negative reaction. The template can be added to any Aberration, Animal, Dragon, Fey, Giant, Humanoid, Magical Beast, or Monstrous Humanoid, and changes type to outsider.
Proposed combinations:

The Adversary (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Illithid#Legends): a illithid merged via "faulty ceremorphosis" with a powerful sorcerer.
Half-giant war troll of legend
Half-Earth Elemental Half-Dragon (Crystal) Tarrasque
Baby Awakened Fiendish Half-Efreeti Tarrasque
Paragon!something
Phrenic Ephemeral Hangman
Phrenic Half-Dragon (Crystal) Tarrasque Wilder 1
Phrenic Tarrasque Wilder 1
Half-Orc Half-Dragon
Radiant Phrenic Half-Earth Elemental Half-Dragon (Crystal) Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7590835&postcount=200)
Pseudonatural Phrenic Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10319127&postcount=1349)
Pseudonatural greater barghast servitor of the Dark One
Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm) Phrenic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) Pseudonatural (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/pseudonaturalCreature.htm) Tauric Werewolf Lord Hybrid Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm#WerewolfLord)/Chimeric Giant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-template-giant-cr-1) Giant Shadow Awoken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm) Bonsai aka Potted Plant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15747023&postcount=236)

Pimp my Tarrasque
Given the huge number of such combinations suggested for the Tarrasque, this approach is also known as Pimp my Tarrasque:
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w130/superbongos/pimptarrasque.jpg

Class Levels Only useful to explain the escape scene, it suggests MitD has 18+ class levels of Sorcerer, which would allow him to cast wish even if the base creature normally wouldn't (assuming it has at least 18 CHA).
Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since MitD has not shown any other spell from those 18 levels
It is unexplained how MitD would even gain 18 levels, given his general lazyness
It would require MitD to have forgotten he gained those levels ("discovers powers that he didn't even know he had")

Proposed class levels:

18 levels of sorcerer would give him access to wish.
2 levels of fighter with the alternate class feature Dungeoncrasher might be used to explain the tower scene (although he would have had to rush Miko and her horse, which doesn't quite fit the "hit lightly" rule he himself imposed).

ReincarnationThis idea suggests that MitD used to be a powerful spellcaster (level 18 or more) that dies and used a Reincarnation spell to reincarnate as a rare animal.
Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since there has been no mention of the possibility of reincarnation in the comic, and it would make figuring out what MitD almost impossible
AbominationIt has been claimed that there is a way for Rich to create his own abomination. Some abomination traits are similar in their description to MitD's eating habits.

Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words
Almost certainly violates the "didn't create it" clause in Rich's words
Abominations are immune to mind control

PsychicFrom a third-party book published just months before strip 100, if offers a number of powers similar to teleport and others, except using "psychic powers".

Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since MitD has shown no psychic abilities, and if he did, they are too easily confused with psionics
Unbridled ShapeshifterBy RAW, a shapeshifting creature can gain a large number of abilities by successive shapeshifting into the correct creatures, gaining their magical powers and access to ways to make those changes permanent. The ur-example of this is Pun Pun, the shapeshifting all-powerful kobold. Combined with some form of convenient amnesia you could create a creature very much like MitD, no matter what powers MitD turns out to posses.

Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a)
Rich has been very outspoken about his views on this kind of shapeshifting, including a series of articles (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172910) on how to fix it.


Book of Vile Darkness Demon LordAs per BoVD, demon lords each have a unique look and a unique set of abilities. While a few examples are given (such as Demogorgon, a demon prince), they are explicitly by no means exhaustive. The proposed demon lord, as such, fits the big scenes in whatever way we wish.
Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a)
Demons may or may not have parents in OotS (general cosmology used doesn't have them, but the demon summoned by Qarr claimed to have one - but he was under the Despair spell, and therefore his idea of being a disappointment to his father might have been spell-induced)
Demon Lords are embodiments of their respective Evil plains, and as per Rich's words on the topic, should not be able to change their moral position more than slightly - nowhere near the range demonstrated by MitD (see section 1e)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Section 3: Proposed Ideas

Section 3a: Suggestions that Fit the Big Scenes (FBS)This category groups ideas that fit the clues in the major scenes of MitD, with the following characteristics (as per thread consensus):
1) Has a plausible explanation for the Escape
2) Has a plausible explanation for the Tower (both his attack and his defence)
3) Has a plausible explanation for the Circus (both his act, and the reactions)
4) Isn't one of the impossible categories (unless it is an exception)
5) Existed before strip #100 in a form accessible to Rich.
6) Size no bigger than Huge ("fits in the box")
7) Is vulnerable to mind-affecting effects (SoD)

The proposals may still have other objections (such as that the above explanations require stretching the rules of D&D).

Athasian Nightmare Beast (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20077752&postcount=944)
Pros:
30 Strength
Psionic teleport
Fairly ugly and unique
CR18, decent defences
Dominated by its voracious appetite, can eat anything
Despite spell-like abilities and intelligence appears to have no listed languages or even forms of communication

Cons:
Posted publicly a few months after MitD's decision, but the designer could have sent an advance copy to other designers, such as Rich.

Glabrezu (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#Glabrezu) (SRD or MM 43)Pros: Access to wish 1/month, explains the escape and why the goblin wasn't teleported. It also cannot grant its own wishes, further explaining the lack of later success.
31 STR
20 CHA, but still rather disturbing looking (http://img04.deviantart.net/0731/i/2013/107/3/8/glabrezu_by_vegasmike-d622krv.jpg), while not being immediately recognisable as a demon
Surprising it can speak common (not in its language list)
The stronger limbs are probably not dextrous. The human-like ones are probably not strong enough to pull on a rope.

Cons: Huge would not really fit under the umbrella
Not surprising it can speak
Depending on canon interpretation, cannot have a parent
Embodiment of Chaotic Evil plane - should not be able to be as Good as MitD is.
Low CR
Hagunemnon (Protean) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hagunemnon.htm) (SRD or ELH 196)Pros:

Great strength (53)
Access to Planar Travel through convenient partial shapeshift into e.g. Umbral Blot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/umbralBlot.htm), which includes greater teleport
As a psionic creature, it may have been converted by the means described in the Expanded Psionics handbook, which would give him psionic teleport
adequate size
his shapeshifting sounds disturbing, but has 34 CHA.
Normally speak only ever-evolving language impossible for any non-protean to understand, thus being surprising it talks in common.
Its psionic ability to detect thoughts would explain his knowledge of the ritual, probably having heard RC's thoughts on the subject.
Fluff implies there are protean newborns, so presumably they have some form of parentage ("Even newborns are tides of flesh, ever changing")

Cons:

Plane shift doesn't fit well with the escape as shown (see 1b: The Escape), and while greater teleport fits slightly better, it requires a timely shapeshift into the exact appropriate creature. There is no evidence that psionic-class creatures have been converted as per EP handbook.
Its constant shapeshifting has not been reflected in a change of MitD (mouth and eyes stay roughly the same)

Hunting Horror (CoC)Pros:

CR 20 - powerful enough to be MitD.
Strength of 34 - on the lower side, but within acceptable bounds for the tower scene.
Hideous form - looks like a "black ropy worm or serpent, rather like a legless dragon... with a single wing rising from the middle of the back and a long sinuous tail trailing behind," but are also "mutable, as some have reported them with two wings instead of one, or two eyes instead of a single three-lobed yellow eye." 6th edition of CoC describes them as "hard to look at" and "continually changing, twitching and writhing".
Accompanied by a permanent foul stench that causes Nausea.
Has a Roar ability, but that causes damage, so perhaps that doesn't explain the "STOP" after all.
Can understand speech, but "rarely speaks," according to the D20 version.
Has a Swallow Whole ability, so more than capable of devouring Redcloak.
Has a tail that it can use as an appendage, allowing him to smack the ground and "punch" Miko and Windstriker through a wall, but making pulling things or holding small objects difficult.
Rare to see it on Earth at all, let alone in a rainforest in the middle of the day.
Acquires spells by rolling dice, and picking from a list

Cons:

Defences not that great: AC of 19, plus DR 5/+1, fast healing of 10 - only the last can help explain the "tickle" comment, and not well at that.
Acquires spells by rolling dice, and picking from a list
Access to teleportation a bit dodgy - some older versions give it more random spell access, but D20 specifies a list of spells that does not include teleportation
Damaged by light - explanations vary as to whether it can tolerate a few hours worth of light or if light damages it outright, but a problem either way
Too big to fit under either umbrella or box.
The total lack of non-wing limbs in the official description doesn't fit the art clues. It's of variable form, though, so it might have limbs.
Alternatively, it has been suggested that the HH could be following the CoC rules, rather than the d20 rules, in which case he could use Avert Harm to resist the attacks, but in that case, the creature does not have a means to explain the escape. As a workaround, it has been suggested it could have learnt a heavily modified Word of Recall that teleports to a random destination, although this has no canon support (that such WoR exists, nor that MitD has learnt it).
Schlock Mercenary's Carbosilicate Amorph (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/)Pros:
Can interface with a teraport to teleport
Incredible strength and fighting abilities. Invulnerable to anything short of plasma weapons.
Looks like a pile of poo
Endearing and adorable
Fits under the umbrella easily, but his dad could have been bigger if he had eaten recently
Famous for his unbridled appetite.
As per Shining Wrath's Weak Carbosilicate Amorphic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21046037&postcount=132) principle, "If MitD is in fact a Carbosilicate Amorph, it is because Rich has brought Carbosilicate Amorphs into OotSverse, and therefore they are as recognizable as any other monster of similar rarity"
Rich could probably secure copyright from Howard Tayler, since they are friends (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19691244&postcount=115)
Cons:
Rich probably wouldn't use a SF character from another comic in his fantasy comic.

Slaad (ELH 217)White/Black slaads only.
Pros:
Very strong, epic defences
Can teleport others
Disgusting appearance (humanoid toad)
Not inmune to mind-affecting spells
White one fits in the box/umbrella. Black only in the box.

Cons:
Tricky reproduction cycle means black/white slaads are unlikely to have a "father" (unless it is of the foundling variety).
MitD would have to be over 300 years old, having evolved through green, grey and death slaad varieties. This does not mesh well with his mental characteristics. (unless Rich has bent the reproduction flavor text)
It may be Product Identity (listed as such in d20.org, but not in the WotC legal documentation).
Even if it is, it may not be impossible for Rich to use it for free, unlike trademarked creatures.
Can talk common, and thus wouldn't surprise the hunters that he can talk.
It may be too recognisable as a humanoid toad to fit the wizard's comment in the circus scene.


Uvuudaum (https://web.archive.org/web/20170102222135/http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/epicNonAbominations.html)Pros:

greater teleport available 3 times a day as an SLA explains the escape
very high strength (39), is very ugly but has extremely high charisma (46)
large bonuses to knowledge:arcana and spellcraft explains understanding of the ritual
Large size, so fits in the box (not so much under the umbrella)
Normally communicates with telepathy, not by speaking, so it's surprising it talks.
A confusion aura could explain reactions in the circus, particularly if it's weakened by MitD being a youngster of the species.

Cons:
Might not have eyes or mouth (unmentioned in description, not present in pictures)
His confusion aura should give everyone missing saves around him swirly eyes, but no such thing is visible in the circus scene.



Section 3b: Frequently Proposed Unlikely Ideas
These ideas have been frequently brought up, but they fail in a major way that presents a major problem. If you are considering them, please address the problem listed in your initial post.

DeityFirst, note that "a god" is not a specific proposal. There are hundreds to pick from, many with wildly different capabilities. Furthermore:

If they have D&D stats, they will have Divine Ranks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#divineCharacteristics), which automatically gives them immunity to mind control (see Section 2c: Categories). This applies even to demigods (rank 1-5).
They can speak every language - unsurprising they can talk
Why would the SBGH think there is a market in selling deities?
Any deity RC would consider appropriate for his team (Evil/Neutral ones) can Animate Dead, or copy it through Miracle.


GrueCan challenge any lone adventurer, has insatiable appetite and sparse descriptions mention it being horrible. However, it wouldn't desire to be lighted as MitD does, and it is not known to have magic (e.g. teleportation). Note that MitD has been in the light before joining team evil, both in the jungle and specially in the circus, and has never shown any discomfort from being in the light.
Pun-Pun & FamilyPun-Pun isn't really something that can be classified as "one of those", and it seems likely that Rich made a joke of this idea when MitD suggested he might be a kobold, only to be told he's to tall for a kobold

Rich "The Giant" Burlew
Rich does not fit any of MitD's characteristics - neither physical (e.g. great strength), nor mental (e.g. personality), nor supernatural (e.g. teleportation powers). Claims that he could give himself the powers needed because he is the author are effectively accusations that MitD is a Mary Sue (unfounded), but also if that were the case, it would be something Rich invented for the story.

A frequent defence is that OotS people would react poorly to people from our world, but we have seen RL people in the comic, and they are stickified, so Rich would not fit the circus scene. Claims that he'd retain his RL nose are baseless, and furthermore the reactions to noses in-comic do not match the circus scene anyway. Rich is also a vegetarian, while MitD eats meat

Snarl jrProbably the #1 proposed idea, the "son-of-Snarl" has a major problem: it does not match Rich's words that MitD is a monster someone else (i.e. not him) invented (see Section 1a: "it isn't something I just made up for the story" & "I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually"). Snarl has also not displayed any form of teleportation magic, nor any particular appetite (except maybe for souls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1139.html), although it could equally be a figure of speech of the destruction it brings to mortals), nor need to sleep.

Furthermore, Snarl has been kept a major secret - it's unlikely that the hunters would know, or that they have seen so many Snarl Jr.s running around they can talk about not having seen "one of these".
Tarrasque (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm) (SRD or MM 240)Tarrasque is an iconic creature, famed for eating a lot and sleeping a lot. Unfortunately, there is no particular reason to think that MitD is an iconic creature, and Tarrasque brings several other issues to the table, the most important of which is its lack of teleportation/wishing abilities. Other issues: Tarrasque is traditionally unique and non-reproducing (not part of a species) and far bigger than can fit under an umbrella.

Section 3c: Copyrighted IdeasAll ideas listed here, regardless of how well they fit, have a major problem: they are trademarked, or otherwise unavailable for Rich's use due to legal issues (see Section 4a: Inappropriate Topics)

Boggart (Harry Potter)
Claydol(Pokemon™)
Danica (Star Power)
Diawolf
Domo-kun (NHK)
Father (KND)
Black Mage (Final Fantasy)
Red Mage (Final Fantasy)
Godzilla & pals (Godzilla)
Goku (Dragon Ball)
Gozer (Ghostbusters)
Haggunenon (HHGTTG)
Heffalump(Winnie the Pooh)
Kirby(Kirby)
Pervect (MYTH Adventures)
Plastic Man (DC Comics)
Lord Ochu (FinalFantasyX)
My Little Pony(My Little Pony)
Q (from Star Trek)
Rawhead Sidhe (Dresden Files)
Roger Rabbit (Who framed Roger Rabbit?)
Snorlax (Pokemon™)A great fit, since:

"They can throw incredibly powerful punches and cause immense earthquakes",
is known for its huge appetite (including his ability to eat moldy food) and its sleeping.
It grows from a much smaller pokemon, Munchlax, and fits in the box as an adult (6' 11'').
Using Metronome, it could have a plot-casuality induced access to "escape from battle" abilities.
When not drawn anime style, pokemons can be downright disturbing (non-Snorlax example (http://oyster.ignimgs.com/wordpress/stg.ign.com/2012/10/druddigon_RJPalmer.jpg)).
When you fight a static-encounter Snorlax in the games, if you do not capture it, when the fight ends the game text tells you that it has 'stomped off back to the mountains.'
Has Fissure as an egg move, whose in-game description reads: 'The user opens up a fissure in the ground and drops the foe in. The target instantly faints if it hits.' (picture (https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/File:Fissure_VII.png))


Shadow (Babylon 5)
SMT3 and Persona 3 and 4 (Megami Tensei)
Skull (PvP)
Tonberri (Final fantasy)
Vatch (Witches of Karres)
Vorlon (Babylon 5)
Weeping Angel (Dr. Who)
Ygramul (Neverending Story)
Yoshi (Super Mario Brothers)
Zoidberg (Futurama)

Section 3d: Light-Hearted Ideas
These ideas are not meant to be taken seriously, and were added to this post only because they amused me enough I wanted them recorded for posterity. Please don't read too much into them (or what they say about my sense of humour)

Inmune to blades, including scissors, but suffers from papercuts? Must be a Rock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock-paper-scissors)
The most dangerous box ever (https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/2178863360/h9D2EAC6A/)
The fearsome Gazebo (http://www.brunchma.com/archives/Forum13/HTML/000133.html)HotAndCold (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=48090) explained (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7390002&postcount=1344):

A gazebo is obviously a powerful monster, devouring the story's PC without any chance of rebuttal.
It takes no damage from a +3 arrow, just as MitD apparently takes no damage from Miko's or Belkar's attacks.
Would you recognize a gazebo's tracks?
Or expect to find one in a jungle and even speaking in Common, for that matter?
It is, of course, a juvenile gazebo, explaining its roughly Medium size, rather than its being large enough for, y'know, people to hang out in it.
I... guess he could be a particularly ugly gazebo? Although technically speaking, the gazebo's never actually described in the story beyond its dimensions, color, and the pointiness of its top. So I guess one could argue the gazebo's horrific appearance.
The description states that the PC "awakened" the gazebo, implying that it was sleeping. Perhaps it had recently used one of its mighty and tiring abilities!

A FanboyTruly grotesque creatures, Fanboys have been known to consume vast quantities of whatever they get their hands on (including mouldy cheeseburgers), while skulking in the darkness of their 'boxes'. When inserted into fantasy fiction, they often wield great quantities of inexplicable power (Mary Sue Syndrome) and have difficulty remembering minor plot details (Gate? What gate?) They are truly the most fearsome creature any Creator can face, and yet are beautiful in that a Creator would be nothing without them. And of course, the monstrous and twisted exterior hides an innocence ill-befitting a horrendous beast, and a niceness of character little understood by those around, often causing them to be bullied by lesser souls in the vicinity.

We are all MitD in the quiet corners of our souls.
Grey_Wolf_c
1) How did Grey_Wolf_c punch Miko and her horse through a wall?
- She suggested a Tarrasque should be added, and her horse said Snarl Jr. An adrenaline-fueled rage took over.
2) Why didn't Miko or Belkar's weapons hurt Grey_Wolf_c ?
- Maintaining these threads has made him impervious to pain.
3) Why wouldn't a wizard recognize Grey_Wolf_c ?
- Keeping up with the thread means he doesn't have time to keep up his appearance so looks like a human-sasquatch mix wearing clothing.
4) Why would humans become nauseous at seeing Grey_Wolf_c ?
- No time to shower either.
5) How did Grey_Wolf_c teleport V and O-Chul to the beach with Hinjo?
- Well, you got me there.
The GiantNo, not that Giant, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?14856-The-Giant) this Giant (http://photos.imageevent.com/supplex55/supplex55vintagenwawcwpromophotos/95%20giant) Former WCW World Champion. Latterly The Big Show, and played by Paul Wight.

An actual fairy-tale Giant, a wild-haired mountain-savage, who wrestled in World Championship Wrestling from 1995 to 1999, and was booked as the son of the late Andre The Giant (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/Andre_in_the_late_'80s.jpg).

1) The Escape: Can The Giant teleport?... Bizarrely enough, yes. The Giant debuted in 1995 in World Championship Wrestling as part of the 'Dungeon Of Doom (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dungeon_of_Doom)' stable, portraying a similar role that the MITD has in OOTS. The powerful dragon controlled by 'The Taskmaster' Kevin Sullivan (http://lzimages.lazygirls.info/dungeon_of_doom_the_taskmaster_kevin_sullivan_HD7S 58BQ.sized). In this role, he actually could teleport. And teleported to and from the titular 'Dungeon of Doom.'

2) The attack and defense portrayed in the tower scene: At Halloween Havok 1995 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween_Havoc#1995), he attacked Hulk Hogan on the roof of the Cobo Arena in Detroit. He fell from the roof of a 12,000 seater stadium straight to the concrete parking lot below, and not only lived to tell the tale, but wrestled later that night. Talk about damage reduction. As for attack? Well... He's been showed to flip cars and throw "350 Pounds, solid steel ring-steps" in his time... I think you'd need at least a Strength of 28 to do that last one if you had the Hulking Hurler Prestige Class's ability 'Really Throw Anything.' He's choke-slammed two large men at once, in real life, where the men are resisting, rather than helping you lift them up, that's basically dead-lifting around 500 pounds at once.
Also, he beat Hulk Hogan. No one beats Hulk Hogan. Ever. Seriously. Because Hulk Hogan is an arrogant, selfish old c-... Never mind.

3) Has a plausible explanation for the Circus: He's been portrayed as gross, scary, impressive and interesting. And plenty of people paid to watch him.

4) Isn't one of the impossible categories: He's definitely a humanoid.

5) Existed before strip #100 in a form accessible to Rich: Debuted on US TV in 1995

6) Size no bigger than Huge: Only seven foot tall, 484 or so pounds.

7) Is vulnerable to mind-affecting effects: Yup.

8) Smaller and eats less than his father: He was portrayed as the son of Andre The Giant (http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/13/135089/4673684-5125271151-Andre.png) a seven foot four, 520 pound man who is said to have consumed 7,000 calories a day in wine alone.

9) Small, but will get much bigger: The Big Show is significantly fatter now than he was when he was known as The Giant.

10) Could he eat Redcloak whole?: Well... He has the appetite of a Giant, soon after his debut, he became tremendously fat, and since he was booked as a literal Giant, a mountain-dwelling savage from 'Parts Unknown,' he probably isn't above eating moldy cheeseburgers.

11) 'Wouldn't expect to see on of these here [In The Jungle]': You wouldn't expect to bump into a wrestler in a jungle... Well, you wouldn't! Would you? I wouldn't!

12: Surprised he can speak, and in common?: Weirdly enough, despite speaking English very well, the interviewers and commentators would often pretend that they couldn't tell what The Giant was saying, kind of like Stewie in Family Guy.
Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Young Adult Green Dragon
The MitD is a green dragon that also has five different green dragon ancestors in his family, so he has five instances of the Half-Dragon template.

Pros:
Template combination is guessable, because it's not unusual for the Stickyverse. Half-dragon hybrids are common: Girard is half-dragon, Enor is half-dragon ogre, Durkon's parents fought a half-dragon troll. The ancient black dragon says in #628 that she's expected that her son invites "that nice green dragon girl", showing that green dragons sometimes interbreed with dragons. #555 has a joke about a half-orc half-orc orc.
63 strength to explain tower scene.
Two claw attacks for 1d6 damage and a bite attack of 1d8 damage, weaker than the attacks of an ordinary young adult green dragon. Lets Miko and horse survive tower scene.
36 natural armor, 25 base armor class, 5/magic DR explains why Belkar's and Miko's attacks fail. Half-Dragon template says "Natural armor improves by +4" so the bonus from multiple instances will stack.
"Elongated features […] and exaggerated teeth and claws" and "more formidable" both stacked five times to explain circus scene. The wizard in circus has seen green dragons, but not one with such grotesque features. He's just the kind of misshapen mutant that a freak show wants to show off. Xykon finds him ugly.
Misshapen features explain why Belkar can't recognize his tracks.
Overly long claws and 10 dexterity makes it difficult to pull the rope.
People can still recognize that he is a dragon, explaining "one of these".
29 intelligence, 19 wisdom, and 29 charisma, may have skills in Bluff and Knowledge. That is why he can bluff Xykon once he actually starts to think, and recognize the half a ritual.
Large size to fit in box.
Can fly, which is how he can get up to the entrances higher up in the mountain without leaving a trace.
Dragons grow as they age, which explain that MitD's father was BIG.
Two eyes.
Not immune to mind affecting effects.

Con:
Doesn't explain escape scene.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Section 3: Continued

Section 3e: Proposed ideas
Ideas that have been proposed, but cannot explain all major MitD scenes (See 3a)
Aboleth Mage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/aboleth.htm)Pros:

28 Strength
Effective caster level 10th would allow him to have teleport
Appearance: "The aboleth is a revolting fishlike amphibian" but charisma 14 could count as "beautiful" for someone that isn't too nauseated by fish-like beings
Can only speak languages that are used underwater - would be surprising to hear him speak out of the water, and in common no less.
Very rare to be found outside of their natural environment (water)
Grows bigger as it ages - father would be bigger than MitD
Eating creatures gives him their memories, which would explain why he doesn't like to eat babies (no memories - bland and boring food) and why he likes stew (he never knows what he's going to get, it's a big surprise!)

Cons:
This creature could be considered the "almost" FBS suggestion.

Strength is almost to the 30 used as rule of thumb for the tower scene, but not quite there
Huge, almost small enough to fit in the box - and if made any smaller by age or template, he'd be too weak
CR17 is almost to the rule of thumb expected power level
3 eyes - almost the right amount - vertically stacked.
Study-based spellcasting is a poor fit for MitD, who is never seen studying spells

Akvan Div Prince (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary3/div.html)Too tall. probably not ugly enough. Might be too recent.
Alhoon (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Alhoon)Undead, not strong enough
Anaxim (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#anaxim) (SRD or ELH 158)Construct, no teleportation.
Andeloid (http://www.lomion.de/cmm/andeloid.php)Can absorb the powers of other creatures, virtually explaining everything with the right set of creatures, but seems unlikely that MitD has had a chance to do so
Angel of DecayUndead
Astral DragonToo big when powerful enough (if it ever is powerful enough - top strength of 24 is insufficient); too weak when the right size. Too recognisable due to being a dragon for it to fit the circus scene. Fluff about staying a child until mating does fit MitD.
Astral Dreadnaught (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/converted/crypt/astral_dreadnaught.htm)only one eye, gargantuan, can't explain the escape
Asura (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Asura_%283.5e_Creature%29) (high CR homebrew)Can cause earthquake, looks weird. Can't explain the escape. Unsurprising to hear it speak in common. Too many eyes.
Atropal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#atropal) (SRD or ELH 159)Undead: doesn't eat or sleep.
Audrey IINot that ugly (people flock to see it), unclear if it can teleport others/grant wishes (up for interpretation), unclear if its strength is sufficient to punch people through walls and send them flying.
Bauhei (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?66577-Creature-Catalog-new-3-5-conversions/page39&p=4301770#post4301770)Unclear if it can be called "one of these". Doesn't fit the circus scene (awe doesn't induce vomiting)
Aurumach RilmaniToo humanoid looking to fit the circus scene.
Baku (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=643)28 STR, probability travel works as teleport or a critical roll, fairly unrecognisable. However, also not specially disgusting looking.
Barghest (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/barghest.htm) (SRD or MM 22)Pros:

Eats a lot, and gets stronger as he eats (reference (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html))
Greater Barghest has dimension door

Cons:

Not really all that strong, (max 20)
No earthquake ability
Dimension door doesn't explain the escape well
can speak (but not in common)


Black Troll (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=506)Large, ugly as every troll, but looking demonic on top. Can cast Teleportation without error, explaining the escape (but not what the hell a troll is doing with that spell and 10 INT and CHA). Unfortunately, not quite strong enough.
Brachyurus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/brachyurus.htm) (SRD or ELH 170)Strong and relatively ugly, but can't explain the escape
Brainstealer DragonOld ones are strong and have spells that can explain the escape, but are too big to fit in the box. Young ones that do fit are too weak. All of them can explain the circus scene. Published a year after strip #100
Braxat (MM2 37)Not particularly strong, CR9 and can only explain the escape with Dimension Door.
Brood Keeper (MM3) Can't explain the escape, the fear aura doesn't fit the circus scene, too big, not strong enough. Rich may have had a hand in their creation.
Bigfoot Very strong, presumed ugly even though no-one ever manages to see him. However, no magic, and thus doesn't explain the escape.
CerebrilithCan´t explain the escape. Insufficient Strength
Centaur (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/centaur.htm) (SRD or MM 32)Not strong enough, can't explain the earthquake, the tower scene, the circus scene or the escape.
Cherub (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=1478) (four-faced version)Pros:

Strength of 36.
"four-sided head with the faces of a lion, ox, eagle, and man," which can be disgusting
Wish as an SLA, easily explains the escape
Has earthquake as a power, could explain the stomp.
Large size
Can be advanced to gargantuan, meaning that MitD's "father" could be either another larger cherub who was raising him or just a god specifically.
Strange to find a cherub in a rainforest.

Cons:

Like most angelic hosts and demonic armies, it is hard to understand how it went unrecognised in the circus act - most people would have heard of them at their religious service of choice.
OotS Cherubs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html) don't look like that.
Four sets of eyes
Unsurprising it can talk common (can talk all languages)
SBGH would probably not likely sell divine beings into slavery
Immune to mind-affecting spells and abilities.
Doesn't really fit with why Xykon and Redcloak expect him to be "scary" and eat children


Chi You (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi_You)Vaguely defined. Weird looking, but not particularly revolting. Can speak.
ChichimecNo explanation for the escape
CoeurlCR4, nowhere near powerful enough. Can't explain the escape
Concordant Killer (MM4)Created too late to be MitD. Not strong enough. Can't explain the escape
Corpse Tearer Linnorm (MM2 141)Strong and with access to miracle, but only through cleric spells, which would give him Animate Dead, which MitD is known not to be able to cast
Couatl (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/couatl.htm)Cannot explain the escape (caster level not high enough) the tower or the circus (not particularly revolting). CR10, nowhere near powerful enough. Since it has cleric abilities, should be able to help RC
Crypt ThingUndead, can't explain the tower scene. Unclear how somone could claim not to have seen a human skeleton before. Unsurprising it can talk
CrystalleCan cast Wish, but limited since the ioun stone has limited charges. STR 33. Cons: appearance not particularly disgusting; Elemental: doesn't eat or sleep.
Dao (MoP 172)aka "earth genie". Pros:
Can grant wishes
Can cast earthquake
Has a "shove" ability to push enemies
Cons:
Unsurprising it can talk
CR6, little strength, no defences
Not unusually ugly
Unclear how father would be "bigger and hungrier"
Deus Ex Machina personifiedWould be a Rich creation
DisenchanterNot strong enough, cannot explain the escape, not powerful enough to be Xykon's Ace in the Hole.
Displacer Beast (MM 60)Can't explain the escape, not strong enough
Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm) (SRD or MM 68 + most MMs)Pros:

Decent defences
they like to eat and sleep

Cons:

They don't get the kind of strength and powers needed until they are way too big for the box.
They are very recognisable, and thus don't match the circus' reactions.

Draknor (http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=1061)Sprouts from the ground, but we have seen MitD in high floors of towers.
DraedenLudicrously large (1,000ft per HD), would not fit in the box. Can raise the dead
Dread Linnorm (MM2 141)Pros:

Huge Strength
Wish (Sorcerer Levels)
Ugly (with high Charisma)

Cons:

Colossal - requires him to be a runt, which brings problems re: high-level spell access
Two Heads - requires a reason why it lost one (e.g. decapitation)
Immunity to all spells of the enchantment school

Dream Larva (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#dreamLarva) (SRD or ELH 161)Pros:

Worst Nightmare ability explains circus' reactions (as long as it is a 'young' dream larva, so that it is not immediately lethal)
Very strong (42), high CR, defences and DR
Dreamscape allows teleportation, with a certain amount or rules bending (see here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7485816&postcount=77) for an explanation)

Cons:

Immune to mind-affecting effects
Dreamscape doesn't explain the escape all that well
Not known for its appetite, or its need to sleep
Unclear if a young dream larva can even exist, and would be less lethal than an adult one.


Earth Elemental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm) (SRD or MM 97)Unstated how it would cause the escape, it cannot provide material for undead
EfreetNot powerful enough in D&D, regardless of how powerful they were in the original mythology
Empyrean5e monster, and therefore published way too late for MitD
Enveloper (1e FF)Insufficient strength, it's main ability of absorbing powers (thus explaining the escape scene), would also give MitD knowledge that would be at odds with his known naïvety and ignorance. Difficulty explaining the circus scene.
Ephemeral Hangman (ToM 161)Pros:
Looks like a mass of black tentacles centered around a large maw and a trunklike body.
Large, but when in darkness or shadowy illumination, it can fit into spaces that appear too small for it
The base species prefers eating children "and others too small and weak to fight back"
Cons:
Can't explain the escape scene
Probably too weak: CR7, STR 22
Epic Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonepic.htm) (SRD or ELH 181)Pros:

Have access to Wish
Very strong
Like most dragons, it likes to eat and sleep

Cons:

They don't get the kind of strength and powers needed until they are way too big for the box.
Beautiful (sp. prismatic)
They are very recognisable, and thus don't match the circus' reactions.

Essence ReaverPublished in 2007, too late for MitD.
Fhoimoren GiantNo explanation for the escape. Weak defences.
Fiendwurm (MM2 99)strong and known for eating constantly, can't talk, can send people to the Abyss, but that explains the escape very badly if at all, and lack of limbs and gargantuan size are problematic.
Fihyr, Greater (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/Monsters.php?ID=822)too many eyes, not strong enough, not challenging enough, can't explain the escape.
Formian Myrmarch (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Formian_Myrmarch)Not strong enough to explain the tower scene
Gelatinous CubeFits none of the major scenes
General Ox (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=1912)Sorcerer with access to 9th level spells, and STR 36. Doesn't quite match the circus scene's public reactions
Genie/Djinn (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm) (SRD or MM 114)while able to cast wish, they can talk, they are not particularly ugly, and they're nowhere near powerful enough for MitD
GeriviarNo good explanation for the Escape. Not strong enough.
Ghour (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Ghour)Decently strong, but insufficient CR and too big. Being a demon, it's morality and 'father' doesn't match well MitD's.
Giant Snowman (http://www.giantitp.com/Images/gitpkick/MustHaveBeenSomeMagic.png)Large strength and high HP, but no other known powers to explain the other scenes (especially the escape).
Giant Space Hamster (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/converted/pdf/animal/giant_space_hamster.pdf)Not strong enough, no magical powers, not ugly enough for the circus scene
Gibbering Orb (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/gibberingOrb.htm) (SRD or ELH 191)Can't stomp due to lack of limbs. Shouldn't leave tracks. Too many eyes and mouths. No explanation for Escape, except far-fetched "ate someone with access to wish the day before".
Girard (Member of the Order of the Scribble)Unsurprising it can talk, wouldn't be exhibited as a circus freak, wouldn't be hunted by the SBGH, is now known to be dead.
Gloom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/gloom.htm)Fairly strong, very powerful, but has no eyes, shadow walk isn't quite good enough to explain the escape and "tall, very dark, elf-eared person with a cloak" is not exactly "I've never seen anything like it before"
GoristroHuge, and can't teleport, or explain the escape in any other way. See also Pit Fiend.
Gray Render (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/grayRender.htm) (SRD or MM 138)can't explain the escape, or the tower. Not particularly good at explaining the circus. Too many eyes (6).
GrendelOriginal text says it is immune to weapons. Unclear how it accounts for the escape scene, except if it were demon-spawn due to conversion to D&D, which is a very big stretch. Difficulty addressing its strength (enough to break benches, but not the full hall).
Grey Slaad (MM 231)can teleport people both within a plane and between planes, but so-so strength
GrootslangCannot explain the escape. Did not exist when #100 was posted
Guardinal, Leonal Not strong enough, aura of fear for evil creatures should have been seen in the comic.
Gug (CoC)(From Call of Cthulhu) Very ugly, and causes loss of sanity when looked at. Has a small chance of knowing how to teleport, but is not strong enough, particularly if young version is assumed due to size problems.
Ha-Naga (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/haNaga.htm) (SRD or ELH 195)Access to wish, and fairly strong although, being Colossal, too big for the umbrella (when moving), and lack of limbs make several scenes difficult to explain (like pulling on the rope). Not particularly vomit-inducing. Proposing a child version reduces the strength bellow appropriate amount. Can raise undead (or could by retraining upon level up), which MitD cannot "without gaining 5 levels of cleric".
Half-Giant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/halfGiant.htm) (SRD or XPH 200)Strong and psionic, but can talk, unclear how it accounts for circus scene and the escape.
Hellfire Wyrm (MM2 125)Dragon, and thus can't explain the circus scene properly. Too big (huge)
HephaestusGod: Immune to mind control
Hoary Hunter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hoaryHunter.htm) (SRD or ELH 197)Very strong, can plane shift, but not revolting enough to explain the circus' reactions
HollyphantNot quite strong enough, can't explain the escape, too adorably cute for the circus scene
Hunefer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hunefer.htm)Undead; due to paralysing aura can't explain the circus scene.
IllithidNot strong enough, can't explain the escape
Illithid Elder BrainHas good explanations for the Escape and Circus, but not quite enough strength for the Tower (while still having good defences). Does not have teeth or eyes. Requires a pool of water to live in.
Illurien (MM5)Female, Insufficient strength
Ilsidaur (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?66577-Creature-Catalog-new-3-5-conversions/page25&p=4025832&viewfull=1#post4025832)Demonic (difficulty explaining alignment, probably no parent), difficulty explaining the circus scene. Specific stats linked are too recent for MitD (older versions may exist, but have not been presented)
Incubus Not powerful enough, difficulty changing alignments, can't explain the circus scene
Infernal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#infernal) (SRD or ELH 164)Immune to mind affecting spells, unclear how it accounts for the escape scene (it's greater teleport is self-only). Can animate dead, which RC claims MitD cannot.
Intellect DevourerStrength too low. No explanation for the Escape
JabberwockDifficult to gauge if it fits or not, since the jabberwock is never really described. However, being unique, it doesn't fit the comment of MitD being "one of these". D&D versions tend to be too weak, and lack teleportation.
JuiblexPros:

High strength.
High DR
Teleport without error
Appearance matches the Circus scene and there is even the fact that some people get obsessed with Juiblex and become thralls to explain the bit about beauty.
Eats everything. Yeah. Everything.
High knowledge skills that would explain the MitD knowing unexpected things. i.e. the ritual.

Cons:

Unique creature (likely, his children wouldn't have the above powers)
No reason, assuming the BGH were not confused, for it to be surprising he can speak common.
Attacks are always acidic in nature - does not match the Tower scene
Too many eyes, no teeth
Alignment issues (see section 1e)

King-Kong descendantProblem addressing strength and size at the same time. Cannot explain the escape scene.
KlickerNo explanation for the escape, didn't exist before comic #100
KlurichirSeveral versions exists: the one that are strong enough cant explain the escape, and viceversa. Demonic, so has some issues with Mit'd morality.
Kyton, Eremite (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/kyton/kyton-eremite)Can't explain the escape, since it can only self-teleport. Created after strip #100
Lammassu, CelestialNot strong enough, can cast cleric spells.
Lammassu, GreaterThe 2e 'Greater Lammasu' looked promising, but the 3 or 3.5 versions that have been reviewed fell short across the board.
LaogzedDemigod: can be mind controlled
Lava ChildrenCan't explain the circus scene (neither ugly nor particularly strange), unclear if it can explain the escape
Lethus Dragonpublication date 7 years after strip #100. Otherwise, fits the FBS rather nicely, but not the general fluff of MitD
Li Lung (Earth Dragon) (OA)Pros:
Yellow eyes
Reasonably strong, potentially challenging, and correctly sized up to young adult
Damage reduction
Earthquake AND a powerful roar
Plane Shift
Cons:
plane shift doesn't explain the escape well
Personality (sleepiness, constant desire to consume, etc) doesn't match typical li lung's description
As a young adult, it is not powerful enough
Marut (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm#marut)Construct, has a vendetta against undead, embodiment of a morality plane
MyrmixicusTeleport self+objects only (although with a very generous weight limit). 33 strength. Demonic looking, which might not quite explain the circus scene. Embodiment of a morality plane. Might not have the ability to breath air, since it's a aquatic demon.
Nabassu (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060605a) (WotC book previews or Fiendish Codex 1)Not particularly strong, can only teleport themselves, and kill any level-1s that look at them, thus having difficulty explaining its success as a circus act.
Neh-Thalggu (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/nehThalggu.htm) (SRD or ELH 206)incorporeal - meaning it has 0 STR and can't explain the punching of Miko or her horse (it could have bitten them, but not hit them)
Neo-otyugh (2e MM?)Can't explain the escape. Unclear strength (otyugh is definitely too weak). Too many eyes (3).
Neothelid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/neothelid.htm) (SRD or XPH 204)Pros:
Fairly high strength (30)
Psionic Teleport at will
Vomit-inducing, since it's a gigantic worm with tentacles
Heavy eating
Rarely communicates in a meaningful way
Its ability to Trace Teleport would explain how it knew where to send O'Chul and V
Cons:
Difficulty explaining the earthquake and the stomp, lacking legs.
Defences not that great
No eyes
Gargantuan
Nessie the Loch Ness MonsterToo big for the umbrella, can't explain the escape scene, difficulty existing in dry land
Nightmare Beast (MM2 161)Pros:

Fairly strong
spends most of its time looking for food, and then sleeping
Dimension door
Can't talk

Cons:

Not defensively impressive - Miko would not have had trouble hurting it.
Dimension door doesn't explain the escape well.
Red eyes
Everyone in the city should've been having terrible nightmares

Nightscape Battlemage (http://magiccards.info/ps/en/47.html)Can't explain the circus scene or the tower scene. Unsurprising it can talk
NycalothInsufficient strength, no good explanation for the circus scene or the tower scene.
Oni, Go-Zu and Me-ZuSeveral varieties, none really strong enough, and with no way to explain the escape.
Onyx Worm (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psb/20020808a)not strong enough, can't explain the escape.
Ophan AngelGood stats, but hundreds of eyes, and no good explanation for the escape.
Outsider, The (H.P. Lovecraft)undead
Paizo Golem Construct. Can't explain the escape scene or the circus scene. Created 5 years after strip #100
Phaerimm (Monsters of Faerun 70)Very, very ugly, access to wish through sorcerer levels, but not strong enough for the tower scene, and has no eyes.
Phasm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/phasm.htm)Telepathic, so surprising it can speak. Not strong enough, can't explain the escape.
Pit Fiend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#pitFiend) (SRD or MM 57)Pros:
Strong, good defences
Highly skilled in Knowledge Arcane, -Religion, -Planes and in Spellcraft which would explain how the MitD could identify the ritual with merely a glance.
Access to Wish

Cons:

Pit Fiends probably don't have children and aren't child-like. (From Roy's Archon's words here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0493.html), it seems OotS-verse has normal "advancement" of celestial beings. On the other hand, two demons have mentioned parents)
It is not surprising it can talk.
It can reanimate the dead
Circus scene presents two problems: demonic creatures are not difficult to recognise (in a broad sense, if not the specific type), and the reaction one would expect is fear, not vomiting.
Rich's comments in W&XPs seem to indicate that morality planes creatures can't change alignments more than slightly.

Planetar Angel (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelPlanetar) (SRD or MM 11)Has cleric levels
Pooka (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Púca)No good explanations for the escape or the tower, being of the trickster fairy archetype
Prismasaurus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/prismasaurus.htm)No explanation for the escape, immune to mind-affecting "attacks" (which may or may not include what Xykon did to MitD). In the circus scene, people aren't being blinded or hit by prismatic sprays
Psammead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Children_and_It#The_Psammead)Can grant wishes, but is not strong, is too small and being damage by water is something that does not match well with MitD's life in the rainforest. Also, Psammeads cannot grant their own wishes, so it cannot explain the earthquake or the tower scene.
Qlippoth (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/additionalMonsters/qlippoth.html)Specifically, the Augnagar: explains circus and tower, but can't explain the escape. Immune to mind control.
Quaraphon Bully(MM3)Not strong enough, no explanation for the Escape, too many eyes.
Reality warper (e.g. Superman's Fifth-Dimensional Imp)Their reality revision power would explain the escape scene, but not the tower scene. A reality warper can cause anything they desire to become true, but in the tower scene, the exact opposite of MitD's desires (to hit as lightly as possible) happened.
SarrukhNot strange enough for the circus scene. Not strong enough for the Tower Scene. Not surprising it can speak.
SCP-682 (http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-682)Published in 2007, didn't exist during comic #100. Can't explain the escape (except by an undefined unrestricted ability to adapt). The personalities are very different. Arguably too powerful to be MitD.
ShadeCan't explain the escape, nor the tower scene. It only fits the circus scene if it is a shade with no light sensitivity. Don't eat, breath or age. Their lack of metabolism means they also do not emit odors. The best fitting version is also a homebrew which didn't exist when MitD was picked.
Shadow Dragon (Draconomicon 191)
Pros:
It can cast Dimension Door as a supernatural ability once per day.
Its size is Large as a young adult and adult, and Medium if it is juvenile.
It has damage resistance 5 when it becomes a young adult.
It's Shadowy and gets 9/10ths concealment from this....
Cons:
Not incredibly strong
Doesn't explain the earthquake or the escape

Shadowcloak ElderShadow Blend doesn't match MitD's instructions to stay in the shadows (other than in Xykon's tower), not quite strong enough, can't talk, can't explain the escape.
Shedu, Greater (http://dedpihto.narod.ru/games/Monsters1/MM00260.htm) (FF) Not strong enough. Unclear what its stats are in 3.5. Not surprising it can talk.
Shoggoth (CoC)Unclear if it can explain the escape, it may drive the public of the circus insane.
Shirokinukatsukami Not enough strength (20), can't explain the escape due to only self-teleporting
Siabrie (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20020817a)Insufficient strength, female, beautiful, can't account for the escape.
Slime ChildPublished after #100
Smiling MedinaHomebrewed after strip 100. Not strong enough for the tower scene.
SnarkCannot explain the escape scene, and most likely cannot explain the earthquake or tower scenes (although the descriptions are vague)
Solar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelSolar) (SRD or MM 12)Cons:

Solars don't really have children and aren't child-like.
It is not surprising it can talk.
It can reanimate the dead

Sphinx (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sphinx.htm) (SRD or MM 232)Not really strong enough; the suggested idea was a kind of rock sphinx, but that can't be found in the stat'ed lists.
Starspawn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9404200&postcount=811) (aka Son of Cthulhu)Drives people looking at him insane, thus having difficulty explaining its success as a circus act. Strength high, but not impressively so.
Stench KowWith a CR 3-4, it is not a credible threat to the order. Can't explain the escape or the tower scenes.
Sun Wukong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_wukong)Talks, no father, not part of a group, vegetarian.
Tarasque, original mythological version (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarasque)Probably would be the Tarrasque in OotS. Can't explain the escape
Titan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/titan.htm) (SRD or MM 242)Pros: High Strength, mythologically, the Titan Uranus ate his children.
Cons: The only way to rescue O'Chul is by using Maze, which fits badly. It wouldn't be surprising it can talk.
Titan, Elder (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Elder_Titan)Not surprising it can talk. Can't explain the circus.
TrollNot strong enough, can't explain the escape, has difficulty explaining the circus (trolls are fairly common creatures, not something that unrecognisable).
Truly Horrid Umber Hulk (MM 248)Fairly strong, confusing gaze might explain the circus' reactions. However, doesn't have teleportation abilities, or earthquake.
Tulani EledrinToo pretty and elf-looking for the circus scene. Not quite strong enough. Can cast clerical spells.
Two-headed CyclopsTwo heads, but only one eye each, lazy & fairly ugly, but can't explain the escape and are not that strong. They can also speak, but only elven, not common.
Ulgurstasta SorcererUndead. Eats (swallows whole) bodies to produce undead, so should have been able to help RC. Gargantuan. Defences too weak to explain the Tower scene or Belkar's attack.
UltrolothDemonic (morality problems), insufficient strength & defences, can't explain the escape
Uluu ThalonghNot surprising to be found in a jungle/rainforest. Unclear if it accounts for the escape.
Umbral Blot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/umbralBlot.htm)(Blackball)Construct, too weak (Str 10) for the tower scene. Can't explain the earthquake's stomp. Appearance doesn't match circus reactions.
Umpleby (1st ed FF)Can't explain the circus scene, or the escape.
UnbodiedCannot explain the escape nor the tower
Utukku (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?66577-Creature-Catalog-new-3-5-conversions/page3&p=1294154&viewfull=1#post1294154)Insufficient strength. 2nd ed version has poor defences, 3rd ed. version can't explain the escape.
Vasuthant (MM3 182)Undead. Can't explain the escape
VaarsuviusCreated for the comic. Doesn't eat meat. Not strong enough. Explanation that turns a wizard into MitD by means of the Snarl is completely unlikely and unsupported by evidence
Vermiurge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/vermiurge.htm) (SRD or ELH 226)revolting sight, but can't explain the escape, can speak and is immune to mind-affecting spells.
VelociraptorCannot explain the escape or the tower scene
Void Yai OniCan't explain the escape
Warforged (Eberron or MM3 190)Construct
Wendigo (FF 186)Very strong, fairly ugly, famously hungry creatures. However, no magic, and thus doesn't explain the escape.
WharlyskLives in the rainforest. Huge. No explanation for the escape. Not strong enough
Wild ThingsCannot explain the escape
Wolf-in-sheep's-clothing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/wolf-in-sheep-s-clothing)Can't explain the escape. Can't explain the circus, since he explicitly does nothing during his act, so all the public would see is a tree stump with maybe a dead animal on top. Can't explain the tower scene (STR 17, CR 8)
Wumpus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wumpus)Doesn't explain the escape.
YaliStrong, can psionic teleport, but cannot explain the circus scene.
Yeti Very strong, presumed ugly even though no-one ever manages to see him. However, no magic, and thus doesn't explain the escape.
Xor-Yost (Planar Handbook 122)Can't explain the escape
Zodar (http://lost.spelljammer.org/ShatteredFractine/critters/monsters/zodar.html) (FF 199)Pros:
Very strong
Can cast wish once in a lifetime, and any spell three times in a lifetime
Human-sized
Invulnerable to all damage except bludgeoning explains his resistance to Belkar's and Miko's attacks.
Cons:
Does not explain the circus scene, since it basically looks like a man in a black armor
The official version of Zodar is a construct, which would discard him; there is, however, an unofficial version (http://lost.spelljammer.org/ShatteredFractine/critters/monsters/zodar.html) that retains the 2.0 version that was monstrous, and that existed before the official one.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Section 4: Thread Information

Section 4a: Thread Rules
This is a curated thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12577293&postcount=2), and as such obeys the following rules:

CuratorI, Grey Wolf, am the curator of the thread.
Responsibilities:

Maintain the thread
Remember arguments and canon
Answer polite questions about MitD and the thread


What I can't do

I have no official authority
I am not a moderator
I cannot ban discussion of issues I consider settled
I cannot prevent certain topics from being discussed (but I can publicly withdraw from them); however, see also section on Inappropriate Topics below
I cannot prevent any given poster from participating (but can Ignore them)
I cannot make executive decisions on what is or is not included in the first post outside the guidelines stated in this post.


Adding information to the first post
To add something to the first post needs two positive votes to do so. "Positive votes" means two more people in favour of the idea than against it.

In normal operation, that essentially means convincing me to add it. The original proponent and me make the 2 votes, assuming no-one objects. If I disagree, the proponent will then need two other posters to agree with him/her (assuming no-one else but me disagrees). And so on: if 3 people are opposed, five need to be in favour, etc.

Why not simple majority? Because that is perilously close to a draw. With only one vote up or down, someone might come in a day later and vote against the idea would mean that we open the door to having to continually add and remove things from the first post - I want to prevent that as much as possible. This way, a vote against the change coming after the change still leaves a simple majority in favour of it (if would take two votes against the change after the fact for it to be reverted).

The only exception to the rule is the refreshes. When I do a refresh of the first post (usually at the end of every page divisible by 10), I will not require to get anyone to agree with me; instead, I will publish a list of all changes as I make them, and when it is over, two objections will be enough to remove a change. For those doing the math at home, that is only one positive vote to remove it (I'd naturally be opposed, since I just added it), but since it got added only with one vote (mine), it's fair to remove it also with only one vote.

For major reworking of the first post, such as the issue with the definition of FBS, removing or adding whole sections, etc, it will need to be put to general vote. To request a vote to make a change to the OP, a proponent must obtain the backing of two other participants. The vote will then be held when the curator can set it up, or at refresh, whichever comes soonest.

Inappropriate Topics
The following topics are considered by consensus inappropriate for the thread. Note that no mod has weighted on either, so the easiest way forward if you want to discuss them is to first get mod approval:

Intellectual Property ("copyrighted") creatures not belonging to WotC. Due to section "Inappropriate Topics", subsection "Professional Advice" of board rules, discussion of laws is verboten in this forum. Since the biggest objection to copyrighted creatures is whether or not Rich would be legally allowed to use them, every such creature proposed quickly devolved into a discussion of applicable laws, which is not allowed. For the purposes of this thread, any creature created after Mickey Mouse (1923) is currently under copyright in the US.
Please also see this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18959523&postcount=2) explaining the rationale behind the blankiet ban on all copyright and copyright discussion, and especially the section on fair use.
MitD's personal alignment: not that of his species, but his personally. Consensus is that his alignment cannot be tied to that of his species (see section 1e). It is a separate enough topic that it should have its own thread. If V can have a thread for gender and a separate one for alignment, MitD can have one for his species (this one) and a separate one for his alignment. At least until the mods say otherwise.

Section 4b: Voting Rules
Major changes to the first post may be put to consensus vote. In those cases, the following rules will be followed:

Semi-public vote: votes will be PM'ed to me, the curator, to prevent the thread from being spammed by multiple short "vote for X" posts. I will compile all votes in the original voting post for verification and record keeping. To prevent fraud, please be ready to reaffirm your vote if someone else PMs you to ask about it.
Multiple votes per person: you can vote for more than one option. Do so in order of preference.
Vote counting: will not be first past the post; instead, alternative vote system (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y3jE3B8HsE) will be used.
Vote length: Until a day passes without anyone else voting.
Voting is binding: if you vote for extra work, be prepared to do the extra work. If extra work is voted for, but no-one does it, the option will be discarded and runner-up will be done instead.
Voting options: If you feel the options are not to your liking, you can vote for a new option by describing it in your post. Give it a letter for ease of voting.
Changing Votes: You can change your vote at any time before the end of the voting.


Section 4c: FAQ

Do I have to read all of the first post before jumping in?No, but you should exercise good sense and read the sections most likely to be related to what you are about to post.

If you want to propose a creature, scan the proposed creatures list to see if it is already there, and read both section 3a (to see how your idea stacks up against the current "best of the crop") and the frequently proposed (in case your idea is already there - in this last case, you need to address all the cons listed in your first post).

If you want to propose an explanation for a MitD characteristic, check section 2 for it, and see what the general consensus of the thread for the characteristic is. If it is a scene, rather than a characteristic, you may have read the whole section to see where that scene is involved.

For other situations, reading section 4 and this FAQ is a good start. If in doubt, you can ask me, the curator, for guidance to the best sections to read.
When is the first post updated?Updates of details that strike me as important, typos, small corrections and other quick things can happen at any time. But, time permitting, every ten pages (at the end of page 10, 20, 30 & 40) I do "first post refreshes" where I add all new proposed ideas, and I may add entire new sections. See rules for the refreshes in section 4a.
When is a proposal added to the first post?Proposals are added during first post refreshes (every 10 pages, unless I am very busy). For a proposal to be added, it needs to meet the following:

Be minimally defended. If just the name is mentioned, it won't get added
Not meant as a joke. If it was meant as one, it will only be added if I find it exceptionally funny (or with two positive votes).
Not retracted by the author. If the author retracts it and no-one else is in favour, it won't get added.

Why is my idea not a FBS?Probably because it doesn't meet the requirements which by current consensus are:
1) Has a plausible explanation for the Escape
2) Has a plausible explanation for the Tower (both his attack and his defence)
3) Has a plausible explanation for the Circus (both his act, and the reactions)
4) Isn't one of the impossible categories (unless it is an exception)
5) Existed before strip #100 in a form accessible to Rich.
6) Size no bigger than Huge ("fits in the box")
7) Is vulnerable to mind-affecting effects (SoD)
Wouldn't a non-D&D copyrighted creature be legal under fair use or parody?A detailed answer would count as legal advice, and can't therefore be further discussed (see Section 4a - Inappropriate topics). Thread consensus is that neither fair use nor parody are applicable to MitD, but agree or disagree, discussion of IP non-D&D monsters is not allowed in this thread per the board rules.
Can't a non-D&D copyrighted creature be discussed, ignoring the legal status and only discussing its pros and cons?In theory, yes, but in practice the biggest con is its legal status, especially if the creature is a half-decent fit. The fact of the matter is that in practice, any non-D&D IP creature quickly descends into a legal discussion.
Isn't every idea guessable? I mean, if someone just guessed it?"Guess" has two meanings. One is "random chance", like throwing a dart at a board. The other is "deduce". Rich intended the second one, as he clarified when he says "I trust that someone will figure it out eventually". He is dropping clues, and expects us to be able to eventually figure it out, presumably once we have all the clues.
Since you haven't found the solution yet, is it possible you are doing something wrong?Not necessarily. Ideas come to this thread slowly. For example, our current best fits were not suggested until late in the second thread and early third, and the explanations for the escape only included the stray dimensional lock as of start of the fifth thread. Besides, there is no way to know if we have found the solution. Balloons won't fall from the ceiling the moment someone says the correct species; for all we know, we have already found the creature Rich thought of.
Haven't you checked all D&D creatures by now?Not even close. There are literally thousand of official creatures, and beyond counting for third-party creatures published in all manner splatbooks. To illustrate just how deep the search space goes, consider that Crusher (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13164767&postcount=1078), in the space of an afternoon, checked one new source and found 5 new better-than-average candidates, and then repeated (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14497821&postcount=279) the feat a few pages later. There remains a lot of material to explore.
Does MitD have to be a D&D creature?No, not at all. Rich has never said that MitD is a D&D creature, only that, whatever he is, he didn't make his species up.
Does MitD have to be a 3.5 D&D creature?If he was updated to 3.5, yes, since conversion is automatic. But if he was never updated, he could be a 1st Ed or 2ed creature (although the latter would need a reason why he wasn't trapped in Dorukan's Dungeon with the rest of never-updated creatures).


Section 6: Appearances of the MitD (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23811525&postcount=28)

[Crusher]

Tracking MitD guesses

We've been thinking about the MitD's identity for quite some time now. The unmasking is probably not nigh, but its definitely getting closer. Since these threads sometimes run for a long time (a recent one ran for almost 2 years), its entirely possible the great unveiling will occur before this thread finishes so its time to get formal about it.

This spot will track the guesses of anyone who cares to make a guess, along with when they made the guess (and I'll probably track people's guess history as well, unless people object). If you want to make a guess, you can either post it in the thread or message me. I'm pretty thorough about reading the thread, but I miss things so feel free to remind me.

For now, I'll organize them chronologically by guess but I may switch to alphabetical. Date is whatever day the forum tells me it was when the note was posted. Also, I'm already getting tired of typing out "Athasian Nightmare Beast", so it will be abbreviated ANB. You can guess up to three candidates.

List of guesses
DaggerPen - Protean 5/21/16, Protean > Hunting Horror 5/28/16, Protean > ANB > Hunting Horror 4/29/2018
Ranagrande - Extremely heavily templated Giant Space Hamster 5/22/16
Grey_Wolf_c - Protean > Zodar > Aboleth 5/22/16
Kish - Infernal > Slaad 5/22/16, Infernal > Slaad > Protean 7/17/16, Slaad > Protean 8/31/18
Ron Miel - Púca 5/22/16
Sniffnoy - Uvuudaum 5/22/16
TraceHyde - Protean > Barghest > Something copywrited 5/23/16
Magesmiley - Prismatic Dragon (very young or young) 5/23/16
Michaeler - heavily templated Protean 5/23/16, young Protean = something Snarl-related (perhaps a Protean) 4/20/2018
RWeird - Protean > Neh-Thalggu > Uvuudaum 5/23/16
nihil8r - Glabrezu 5/24/16
Yanisa - ANB 5/27/16
Crusher - ANB > Prismasaurus > Glabrezu 5/27/16, ANB > Glabrezu > Neh-Thalggu 6/22/2016, ANB > Glabrezu > Slaad 1/11/17, Slaad > Glabrezu 1/23/17
HarryMcB - Protean 5/28/16
Lord Bingo - Zodar 5/29/16
Lombard - Couatl 5/31/16, Li Lung (templated) 7/11/18, Li Lung with Wilder levels 4/10/19
Quartz - ANB 5/31/16, ANB = Uvuudaum 4/25/20
Halfeye - Boojum 6/1/16, Black Hole > Boojum 7/24/18, Nightcrawler 3/19/19
Ruck - Protean > ANB > Snorlax 6/2/16, Protean > Uvuudaum > ANB 12/3/19
GM_3826 - Protean > ANB > Uvuudaum 6/2/16
dancrilis - Grey Render 6/3/16
Vendanna - Half-dragon 6/3/16, Half-dragon/demon 11/15/17
IrishMusician - Protean 6/22/16
thereaper - Protean 6/22/16
ReaderAt2046 - Protean > Zodar > Carbosilicate Amorph 6/22/16, Protean > ANB > Carbosilicate Amorph 7/17/16, ANB > Carbosilicate Amorph 11/17/17
theinsulabot - ANB 6/22/16
Onyavar - Protean 6/22/16
Dark Matter - Protean 6/22/16
Humanist Geek - Protean > ANB > something templated 6/22/16
littlebum2002 - Protean 6/23/16, Slaad > Protean 8/25/2017
voiceofreason - the author 7/1/16
SirKazum - Slaad 7/12/16
Bestigle - Protean 7/12/16
ShiningWrath - ANB 7/17/16, Dread Linnorm (runty, minus a head) 4/28/18
Qwertystop - Protean > Zodar 7/17/16
Hardcore - Imentesh (its a kind of Protean) 7/17/16
Darth V - Protean 7/20/16
Peelee - Protean 7/20/16
Throknor - Uvuudaum > Glabrezu 7/28/16
Knight.Anon - Young Titan 8/3/16
Rosstin - Protean 11/22/16
Outliar - ANB 11/23/16
Darth Paul - Slaad 1/20/17, Slaad > ANB 11/19/17, ANB > Uvuudaum 1/12/19, ANB > Protean, 1/13/19, Protean 3/31/19
Kythia - Slaad 8/9/17
Sniccups - Slaad = ANB 10/15/17
Thermophille - Slaad (White > Black) 11/6/17
Monation - Protean 11/15/17
Zenzis - Glabrezu 11/15/17
Shashakiro - ANB 11/15/17, Slaad 8/28/18
Clockshock - ANB 11/20/17
Djinnocide - Enveloper 7/6/18
Jaxzan Proditor- Protean > Zodar 7/11/18
godsflunky - Protean (because of the nice character-development resonances) 7/11/18
woweedd - Protean = Zodar 7/12/18
redgoblin - Hephaestus - 7/18/18
Father Miles - ANB > Protean > Snorlax 7/19/18
3Power - Ha-Naga 7/28/18, Ha-Naga > anything not on FBS list > Zodar 3/20/19
Calavera - Zeus 8/15/18
Synesthesy - “pure” Black Slaad 9/16/18
Qzin - Snarl, Jr 9/29/18
SpoonR - Baby Deity 9/29/18
Riarra - Slaad > Protean 9/30/18
EmperorSarda - Kandra/Mistwraith 10/22/18
thelivingmonkey - Glabrezu 10/25/18, Protean > Glabrezu > Snorlax 3/13/19
Mightymosy - Something not yet guessed > Protean > Carbosilicate Amorph 1/8/19, Something not yet guessed > Protean 3/31/19
NobleCuriosity - Protean > ANB 1/12/19
The Aboleth - ANB 3/5/19, Protean > ANB 12/5/19
Son of a Lich! - Protean 3/7/19
Mariele - Protean = ANB 3/14/19
Squire Doodad - Protean > Slaad 3/21/19
Jineon - 9-times blinded Beholder 3/29/19
Sir_Norbert - Uvuudaum 3/29/19
cinderrain - Protean 3/29/19
KrankenWagon - ANB > Black Slaad 3/29/19
Angrith - ANB > Haunting Horror 3/30/19
Mad Humanist - Protean 3/30/19
locksmith of io - Protean > ANB 3/31/19
gooddragon1 - Galeb Duhr 6/18/19
BasilisksSoldier - ANB - 8/30/19
pwning doodes - Uvuudaum 9/25/19
Fish - thesaurus 10/1/19
Schroeswald - Red Cloak's niece 10/1/19
Rollin - Protean 12/5/19
DLcygnet - Protean 12/10/19
Scizor - Protean 12/16/19
Iskar Jarak - Protean 4/1/20
trtl - Protean > Gazebo 4/4/20
Emanick - Frankenstein 4/5/20

I will also compile a list of the top vote-getters, which I will update infrequently. If you have 1 guess, it gets 1 point. 2 ordered guesses split 0.6/0.4 and 3 ordered guesses split 0.5/0.3/0.2. 2 non-ordered guesses "It is either X or Y, with no favorite" will be awarded 0.5/0.5 and 3 non-ordered guesses will go 0.33/0.33/0.33. If you guess more than 3, I'll discard 4th and after if possible. If not possible ("its one of these 5...") then I'll exclude the entire guess.

In the ancient past, when dinosaurs roamed the forums, I used a slightly different scoring system. However, it had a slight improportionality in points awarded based on numbers of monsters guessed. Over time it slowly started bugging me, so I eventually fixed it.

Last updated 3/7/19

Its been six months with a smattering of changes so it felt like time for an update. This feeling turned out to be wrong as essentially nothing has changed since then. The Protean remains the very strong leader and the ANB remains second over the Slaad. The ANB's hold on 2nd had been a little tenuous, but it's support has firmed up lately and its now solidly in 2nd. The Slaad (I grouped votes for White, Black, and any kind of transmutation between forms) may have lost a little ground on the ANB but its hold on 3rd remains firm.

Pretty much everything below third remained reasonably static, at least in the sense that I don't really keep track of whether Aboleth or Enveloper is currently in 8th or whatever. Worth noting is that, as with last time, if I took all of the generic "dragon" suggestions (prismatic dragon, half-dragon, Linnorm, etc) and added them together they'd have a score of 3.0 and be narrowly in 4th. Similarly, all the generic "deity" suggestions (Hephestus, Zeus, etc) combined also have a score of 3.0 so they'd be tied for 4th. Perhaps surprisingly, all the generic "Snarl" suggestions only have a combined score of 1.5. I hadn't looked at its total in a long time, but given how that's kind of a running joke, I'd have thought it'd be higher.

The ranking currently goes:

#1 - Protean (or some variant of Protean) - 20.5
#2 - ANB - 9.8
#3 - Slaad - 7.9
#4 - Glabrezu - 2.8
#5 - Zodar - 2.6

[Angrith]

I'm going to toss my hat into the ring. Put me down for the ANB as vote 1 and Haunting Horror as vote 2. Protean just doesn't feel right for the escape scene since the Giant talks about the MitD discovering his own powers. Shifting shape to gain teleport, to my mind at least, is borrowing a power, not finding your own.

[Ruck]

the last thread ran for almost 2 years

Might want to update this.


I'm going to toss my hat into the ring. Put me down for the ANB as vote 1 and Haunting Horror as vote 2. Protean just doesn't feel right for the escape scene since the Giant talks about the MitD discovering his own powers. Shifting shape to gain teleport, to my mind at least, is borrowing a power, not finding your own.

Consciously shifting into something particular is a power.

[3Power]

For all new readers of this thread, I will be including an alternate list of MitD contenders to the FBS/Proposed Ideas list that exists in the OP. This list does not contain any creatures past the cut-off date, nor any non-D&D creatures, including those from call of cthulu, pathfinder, or homebrew. It is my hope that this list will provide a more accurate summary of what the MitD could be. It also does not take Creature Size into account, as it has been suggested on multiple occasions that the MitD is smaller than it usually would be.


:smallsmile: Has wish 1/month
:smallfrown: Can only grant other peoples' wishes and they have to bring suffering to the world.
:smallfrown: No Earthquake
:smallsmile: 31 STR
:smallsmile: Ugly with high charisma.
:smallsmile: Telepathy rules a little unclear, but doesn't appear to be able to speak common.
:smallfrown: Can speak other languages
:smallfrown: Demons don't have children and parents.
:smallfrown: Is an embodiment of pure evil. (Always Chaotic Evil)
:smallfrown: CR weaker than the order, not something Xykon would consider powerful.
:smallsmile: Damage Reduction
:smallsmile: Two eyes.
:smallconfused: Not Really beast like
:smallfrown: No wish.
:smallfrown: Access to greater teleport, but only via complicated borrowing of other creatures' extraordinary abilities
:smallfrown:No Earthquake
:smallsmile: 53 STR
:smallsmile: Ugly with high CHA
:smallfrown: By default, doesn't have two eyes. Constantly maintaining the same form goes against fluff and stretches believability.
:smallfrown: Speak and understand all languages.
:smallsmile: Parents and Children
:smallconfused: Mind reading might explain some knowledge, but no foreshadowing of mind-reading ability.
:smallsmile: Has DR
:smallconfused: Hard to consider beastlike unless it's holding it's form that way.
:smallsmile: High CR
:smallsmile:Always Chaotic Neutral
:smallsmile:36/42 STR
:smallfrown: No wish, but has greater teleport.
:smallfrown: No Earthquake
:smallfrown: Speaks language, including common.
:smallsmile: Can be mind controlled
:smallsmile: Ugly with high CHA
:smallsmile: In oots-verse at least, has parent/children.
:smallfrown: Would have to be very old.
:smallfrown: Slaad in general have appeared elsewhere in OOTS, and the eyes don't match up.
:smallsmile: Damage Reduction
:smallsmile: Beastlike (Monstrous Frog)
:smallsmile: High CR
:smallsmile: Always/Usually Chaotic Neutral

:smallsmile: 39 STR
:smallfrown: No wish, but has greater teleport.
:smallfrown: No Earthquake
:smallsmile: Ugly with high CHA
:smallconfused: Speaks telepathically.
:smallfrown:No eyes or mouth
:smallsmile: Spellcraft and various Knowledge ranks.
:smallconfused: Confusion aura might tie into circus scene.
:smallsmile: Damage Reduction
:smallsmile: Has the general shape of a beast, even though its legs are arms.
:smallconfused: Parent/Child?
:smallsmile: High CR
:smallsmile: Usually Neutral Evil

:smallconfused: 27 STR
:smallsmile: Wish
:smallsmile: Earthquake
:smallsmile: Horrifying abberation with beautiful human face.
:smallsmile: Not listed as speaking any language.
:smallsmile: Lack of arms suggests difficulty pulling.
:smallsmile: Knowledge(Arcana/Religion/History) and Spellcraft ranks.
:smallsmile: Damage Reduction
:smallsmile: Two eyes
:smallsmile: Beast-like
:smallsmile: High CR
:smallsmile: Usually Chaotic Evil

:smallsmile: High CR
:smallsmile: Access to Miracle
:smallsmile: Earthquake
:smallsmile: 24 Strength but can launch people 70 feet.
:smallsmile: Ugly with semi-high CHA (17)
:smallsmile: Fluff says young ones are rarely seen and the species might be dying out.
:smallsmile: Has spellcraft and Arcana ranks.
:smallsmile: USUALLY chaotic evil.
:smallsmile: Dragon evolutionary offshoot, so Beast-like.
:smallsmile: Two eyes
:smallsmile: Doesn't speak common.
:smallfrown: Speaks Infernal and Draconic

Anaxim (Construct, No teleportation, speaks common)
Astral Dreadnaught (Eyes are wrong, no teleportation)
Atropal (Doesn't eat or Sleep)
Barghest(Dimension door is highest possible teleportation)
Braxat (CR 9, only dimension door)
Cerebrilith (SR)
Corpse Tearer Linnorm (MM2 141)
Dao (MoP)
True Dragon (SRD)
Dream Larva (SRD or ELH 161)
Dread Linnorm (MM2 141)
Dream Larva (SRD or ELH 161)
Efreet (SRD)
Epic Dragon (SRD or ELH 181)
Fiendwurm (MM2 99) (Borderline No Escape Explanation)
Formian Myrmarch (SRD)
Genie/Djinn (SRD or MM 114)
Ghour (MoF)
Gibbering Orb (SRD or ELH 191) (Borderline No Escape Explanation)
Gloom (SRD)(Borderline No Escape Explanation)
Grey Slaad (MM 231)
Guardinal, Leonal (SRD)
Half-Giant (SRD or XPH 200)
Hellfire Wyrm (MM2 125)
Hoary Hunter (SRD or ELH 197)
Hunefer(SRD)
(Under Construction)


Aboleth Mage (SRD)
Brachyurus (SRD)
Brood Keeper (MM3)
Centaur (SRD)
Chichimec (SRD)
Couatl (SRD)
Disenchanter (FF)
Displacer Beast (MM 60)
Earth Elemental (SRD or MM 97)
Fhoimoren Giant (?)
Fihyr, Greater (MM2)
Gelatinous Cube (SRD)
Geriviar(MM3)
Gray Render (SRD or MM 138)
Hollyphant(BoED)
Illithid (MM)
(Under Construction)

Athasian Nightmare Beast (year late, never officially released. Exists only on defunct forums.)
Alhoon (Lords of Madness is too late.)
Angel of Decay (Libris Mortis is too late)
Astral Dragon (Dragon 344 is too late)
Brainstealer Dragon (Dragon 337)
Concordant Killer (MM4)
Ephemeral Hangman (ToM 161)
Essence Reaver (?)
Goristro(FC1)
Grootslang(5e?)
(Under Construction)


Aurumach Rilmani
Bauhei
Crystalle
Giant Snowman
Girard (Member of the Order of the Scribble)
Hephaestus
(Under Construction)

Andeloid
Baku
Black Troll
Cherub
Chiyou (Chinese mythical figure, Has D&D stats?)
Coeurl
Draknor
Draeden
Enveloper (1e)
General Ox
Giant Space Hamster
(Under Construction)


In addition, this is a list of all official D&D 3rd edition products that the MitD could be hiding in.

Player's Handbook: Core Rulebook I July 2, 2000
Dungeon Master's Guide: Core Rulebook II September 1, 2000
Monster Manual: Core Rulebook III October 1, 2000
Monster Manual II September 1, 2002
Player's Handbook: Core Rulebook I v.3.5 July 1, 2003
Dungeon Master's Guide: Core Rulebook II v.3.5 July 1, 2003
Monster Manual: Core Rulebook III v.3.5 July 1, 2003
Monster Manual III April 1, 2003
Arms and Equipment Guide March 1, 2003 Mounts and Transport Creatures. Includes a few CR 20 but none fit.
Book of Challenges: Dungeon Rooms, Puzzles, and Traps June 1, 2002
Book of Exalted Deeds October 1, 2003
Book of Vile Darkness October 1, 2002
Complete Divine May 1, 2004 (Bogun only, doesn't fit.)
Complete Warrior December 1, 2003
Defenders of the Faith May 1, 2001
Deities and Demigods February 1, 2002 Olympian, Egyptian, and Asgardian Monsters only, none fit.
Draconomicon November 1, 2003
Enemies and Allies October 1, 2001 - You'd think so, but no. Just standard monsters with class levels.
Epic Level Handbook July 1, 2002
Expanded Psionics Handbook April 1, 2004
Fiend Folio April 1, 2003
Ghostwalk June 1, 2003 None fit.
Hero Builder's Guidebook December 1, 2000
Manual of the Planes September 1, 2001
Masters of the Wild February 1, 2002 Dire and Legendary animals, none fit.
Miniatures Handbook October 1, 2003
Oriental Adventures October 1, 2001
Planar Handbook July 1, 2004
Psionics Handbook March 1, 2001
Races of Stone August 1, 2004 192 Races only, none fit.
Savage Species February 1, 2003 Small section, most of this is templates and monster classes (as well as prestiege classes for monsters.
Song and Silence December 1, 2001
Stronghold Builder's Guidebook May 1, 2002
Sword and Fist January 1, 2001
Tome and Blood July 1, 2001
Unearthed Arcana February 1, 2004 Races only, none fit.

Faerun:
Faiths and Pantheons May 2002
Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 2001
Lords of Darkness 2001
Magic of Faerûn 2001 Very few
Monsters of Faerûn 2001
Player's Guide to Faerûn March 2004
Races of Faerûn March 2003 A few.
Serpent Kingdoms July 2004
Silver Marches 2002 Very few
Unapproachable East May 2003
Underdark October 2003

Eberron:
Eberron Campaign Setting June 2004

Dragonlance:
Dragonlance Campaign Settling, August 2003
Bestiary of Krynn, 2004 Revised 2006
Age of Mortals 2003 (Races only)
Towers of High Sorcery 2004

Magazines
Dragon Magazine: 274-322
Dungeon Magazine: 82 to 113


Also coming soon is a list of creatures capable of performing Wish, Miracle, or Reality Revision.

[Hardcore]

Reserved for whatever i want.

[CriticalFailure]

Athasian nightmare beast or ha naga seem most likely to me so far.

Query: given the very strong implications that MiTD is a child, why is size considered a con?

He behaves like a child and is frequently seen playing games and often mentions toys. The child like personality seemed to really become a big thing around when I gather the author confirmed that it could be guessed and had a species. Characters comment on it as well, with Oona saying he'll grow and Haley noting his behavior obviously meant he's a child. The evidence that MiTD is of a smaller size than the stats for a full grown member of his species is overwhelming.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Query: given the very strong implications that MiTD is a child, why is size considered a con?

He behaves like a child and is frequently seen playing games and often mentions toys. The child like personality seemed to really become a big thing around when I gather the author confirmed that it could be guessed and had a species. Characters comment on it as well, with Oona saying he'll grow and Haley noting his behavior obviously meant he's a child. The evidence that MiTD is of a smaller size than the stats for a full grown member of his species is overwhelming.

I would imagine for many of the ideas it's considered a con, MitD is below the minimum size for a child of those ideas.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Query: given the very strong implications that MiTD is a child, why is size considered a con?

He behaves like a child and is frequently seen playing games and often mentions toys. The child like personality seemed to really become a big thing around when I gather the author confirmed that it could be guessed and had a species. Characters comment on it as well, with Oona saying he'll grow and Haley noting his behavior obviously meant he's a child. The evidence that MiTD is of a smaller size than the stats for a full grown member of his species is overwhelming.

Because anything larger than Huge would require MitD to be about newborn sized or smaller. MitD might be a bit childish, but we're talking "pre-teen", not "baby" or "mid-pregnancy fetus".

Kish made a nice chart (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kBsZNOOTZQnIb5IF0iGV6m3VZyUkQ39fZhrZRktW7h0/edit#gid=0) comparing sizes of various creatures in discussion. The Ha-naga is the massive snake in the middle. The idea that a Ha-naga small enough to be MitD could have enough strength to punch a horse through a wall is rather unbelievable, given that a full-grown Ha-naga is already barely stronger than Roy. Similar issues for all other creatures. If the full-grown had, say, 60 strength and some kind of fluff that explained why it grew ten-fold from childhood to adulthood, maybe. But most creatures don't have that, and the few that do (mostly dragons) are too weak when they are MitD-sized (i.e. they don't have the spells/abilities or the strength).

This is a chart comparing sizes for bipeds. MitD is Medium, or maybe small Large (about human sized, maybe a bit over if he's quadruped or hunched). Compare it to the sizes beyond Huge to see just how ludicrously big those creatures are (FTR, the Ha-naga is colossal, the largest possible size, whilst the ANB is a [weirdly light] Huge)

http://d20pfsrd.opengamingnetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/2017/01/size-comparisons-1.png

The black shadow represents the smallest creatures in the category (think Dwarves for Medium) whereas the grey shadow are the largest (tallest human is about 8 feet tall, most are about 5-6). Or, put another way, the black shadow is about child-sized for the grey shadow. If MitD is about 8 feet tall, as he appears to be, he might be a small Large, which would be about right for a child-sized large, or about knee-tall to a Huge, which really pushes "child" into "baby".

Grey Wolf

[CriticalFailure]

Yeah I was thinking of the Huge ANB when I posted: it has "size" listed as a con thought it seems to me large for a pre-teen one sounds pretty reasonable and likely, it is the next size category after all. The size and str seems off for a ha naga though.

or the mitd is actually half ha naga, half drangon, and half tarrasque

[Mightymosy]

I preferred the picture in the other thread, where different monsters and a human (I think) were compared for the size categories. For me, it made it clearer what the size categories meant.


If we can finally drop the whole Ha Naga discussion for a bit: Has there ever been a candidate for which the size has been the ONLY, or at most important, contra?
I'd simply like to know so I can consider changing my guess or not :-)

[CriticalFailure]

ANB has size and being released after announcement as the cons. The latter of which comes with a caveat. It just seems odd to have size be a concern when it would be a large child growing into a huge adult, which seems pretty reasonable.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I preferred the picture in the other thread, where different monsters and a human (I think) were compared for the size categories. For me, it made it clearer what the size categories meant.
I linked to it in my post. It was made by Kish.


If we can finally drop the whole Ha Naga discussion for a bit: Has there ever been a candidate for which the size has been the ONLY, or at most important, contra?
I'd simply like to know so I can consider changing my guess or not :-)
Sort of. The Dread Linnorm was dropped from the FBS list due to size, but it did have a slight problem in that it had two heads, so it also had the issue of too many eyes (but maybe the other head is blind, or got cut off at some point).

However, I believe it was also unclear if it could be mentally dominated. It's been a while since we've discussed it.


Yeah I was thinking of the Huge ANB when I posted: it has "size" listed as a con thought it seems to me large for a pre-teen one sounds pretty reasonable and likely, it is the next size category after all.
But that's my point: pre-teen humans are NOT one category smaller than human adults. Shorter, certainly, but still taller than a dwarf, and definitely larger than a true Small creature such as a halfling. For MitD, adult being Huge is pushing it: not quite bad enough to knock it out of the FBS category, but still a con. Put another way: would ANB fit better as MitD if it was a bit smaller? Yes, I think is the clear answer, thus it's a con. How much of one, and whether it's a deal breaker or not, that's your personal opinion. I just classify things, and enough people objected to its size that I recorded it as a con. Crusher is the one you want for logging preferred creatures.

Grey Wolf

[3Power]

If we can finally drop the whole Ha Naga discussion for a bit: Has there ever been a candidate for which the size has been the ONLY, or at most important, contra?You mean besides the Ha-naga? Not to get back into it, but that was the only non-subjective concern.



Sort of. The Dread Linnorm was dropped from the FBS list due to size, but it did have a slight problem in that it had two heads, so it also had the slight issue of too many eyes (but maybe the other head is blind, or got cut off at some point).

However, I believe it was also unclear if it could be mentally dominated. It's been a while since we've discussed it.

HOLD THE PHONE

In the SAME SECTION is the Grey Linnorm, CR 20, casts spells as a 17th level cleric, giving access to earthquake and miracle. Has a version of snatch that lets it hurl people 70 feet. Huge, but long, thin, and snakelike. Pretty ugly. Fluff says young ones are rarely seen and the species might be dying out. Only speaks Draconic and Abyssal. Has spellcraft and Arcana ranks. USUALLY chaotic evil.

The only thing standing in its way is selective interpretation of Redcloak's Cleric line. And strength I guess if you want to assume it can hurl someone 70 feet but not go through a wall at 24 STR.

[Mightymosy]

@GW: the link leads to something that seems to be an excel file......doesn't show any picture, much less any monsters. Maybe that's because I am on smartphone.

[Crusher]

You mean besides the Ha-naga? Not to get back into it, but that was the only non-subjective concern.



HOLD THE PHONE

In the SAME SECTION is the Grey Linnorm, CR 20, casts spells as a 17th level cleric, giving access to earthquake and miracle. Has a version of snatch that lets it hurl people 70 feet. Huge, but long, thin, and snakelike. Pretty ugly. Fluff says young ones are rarely seen and the species might be dying out. Only speaks Draconic and Abyssal. Has spellcraft and Arcana ranks. USUALLY chaotic evil.

The only thing standing in its way is selective interpretation of Redcloak's Cleric line. And strength I guess if you want to assume it can hurl someone 70 feet but not go through a wall at 24 STR.

You might want to go back to some early versions of this thread and check out the FBS lists. They’re pretty different from today.

Also, I’m surprised you changed your mind on the Glabrezu. Maybe you could call your list the “Shadow FBS” for the day the masses (or the lotsey ninjas) turn on GW.

[Mad Humanist]

I'm going to toss my hat into the ring. Put me down for the ANB as vote 1 and Haunting Horror as vote 2. Protean just doesn't feel right for the escape scene since the Giant talks about the MitD discovering his own powers. Shifting shape to gain teleport, to my mind at least, is borrowing a power, not finding your own.


Well it seems to me that "what is it like to be an authentic Protean?" is just the sort of thing the Giant would humorously explore. So you have persuaded me. Put me down for Protean.

[Hardcore]

I suspect Rich Burlew (how do one pronounce that Btw?) did not gave that much thought about getting the size right. He had a problem to solve; how to bring the monster out of the cave so it could continue being part of the story, while also keep its identity hidden until the big reveal. Making it a child under an umbrella would solve that and also add a source of jokes.
Thus I am of the opinion that discusing size is probably to over thinking it. MitD got the size plot demanded and that was that.

[Peelee]

You might want to go back to some early versions of this thread and check out the FBS lists. They’re pretty different from today.

Also, I’m surprised you changed your mind on the Glabrezu. Maybe you could call your list the “Shadow FBS” for the day the masses (or the lotsey ninjas) turn on GW.
Nothing to fear from the lotseys; GW would still have a high-ranking administrative role and be in charge of all the curation and whatnot. Really, I just want power for the sake of power. Truly it is the purest of goals.

All glory to the Hypnotoad Silver Dragon!

I suspect Rich Burlew (how do one pronounce that Btw?)

Burr - loo. Possibly burr - lyoo.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

@GW: the link leads to something that seems to be an excel file......doesn't show any picture, much less any monsters. Maybe that's because I am on smartphone.

Yep, that's the one. You may need to scroll the spreadsheet up a bit.

Grey Wolf

[Squire Doodad]

This post reserved for comments on how wasn't there a section 6 on administrative history or something before?

[Crusher]

Might want to update this.

Well, it sure felt like 2 years.

Its funny, I edited a fair bit of that post this time (minor grammar things and a couple points that had gotten out of date), but that wasn’t one!

Ty for pointing it out.

Edit - I’m on my phone (about to get on a plane), but is the ANB link dead for everyone else?

[b_jonas]

Section 6: Appearances of the MitD

Section 6a: Appearances in online strips.

#23: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0023.html) Xykon says MitD is his secret weapon, will reveal him when the time is right.
#37: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0037.html) Xykon and MitD watch Roy set off the booby-trapped door.
#47: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0047.html) More crystal ball watching.
#82: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0082.html) Redcloak tells MitD off for leaving mess in kitchen. More crystal ball watching. MitD is in magical darkness.
#96: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0096.html) MitD can't see gate.
#97: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0097.html) MitD joins Redcloak in evil laugh.
#103: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0103.html) Xykon practices big reveal of MitD. Xykon is not satisfied, MitD listing spices to cook OotS with isn't scary enough.
#105: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0105.html) Nothing.
#106: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0106.html) Doesn't see gate again.
#109, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0109.html) #110, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0110.html) #113: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0113.html) Nothing notable.
#114: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html) Xykon prepares to reveal MitD, gets interrupted. MitD is anxious.
#117: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0117.html) MitD wants to get revealed, Redcloak and Xykon stops him.
#120: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html) Nothing notable.
#147: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0147.html) MitD asks to hold Xykon's phylactery. Redcloak refuses, MitD had broken all his toys, including “Power Ranger figures”. MitD gets fanged Hello Kitty umbrella.
#148: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0148.html) Nothing notable.
#149: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0149.html) MitD does exposition about the initiation rituals.
#190: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0190.html) MitD teaches Redcloak evil leadership.
#191: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0191.html) MitD doesn't want to go into abandoned castle. Xykon tells MitD should be scary and powerful.
#192: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0192.html) Nothing notable.
#194: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0194.html) MitD asks lantern archons to light him up.
#195: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0195.html) MitD asks why Serini's diary is useful, knows about magical books.
#196: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html) MitD knows about Dorukan. Doesn't know about gates.
#259: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0259.html) Reader question time. Hobgoblin Kodrog the Slayer knows what the MitD is, took a peek under his umbrella. Dies before he answers.
#299: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html) MitD wants to be a valuable member. Redcloak says he can't help in making zombies.
#331: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) Still confused about gate.
#368: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0368.html) “Sometimes I eat to fill the loneliness.”
#369, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0369.html) #371: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0371.html) Nothing notable.
#373: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0373.html) Miko meets MitD.
#374: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) MitD has to stop Miko. Feels Miko's full attack as only tickles. Plays “Who Can Hit the Lightest”, hits Miko and his horse far through the tower wall, but they survive. Wall now has holes in the shape of Miko and horse.
#375: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html) MitD finds Miko's purse with letter from High Priest of Thor to Durkon, paper cuts his tongue.
#376: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0376.html) Xykon had asked MitD to not let Miko get away, and this was Xykon's idea.
#414: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0414.html) Nothing notable.
#415: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0415.html) MitD crystal ball watching on Miko. Confused about gate.
#422: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0422.html) MitD confused about Redcloak chewing out on decoy Xykon.
#426: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0426.html) MitD confused about three Xykons.
#428: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html) Nothing.
#431: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html) MitD confused about four Xykons. Understands the distinction between arcane and divine spells. Redcloak explains the decoy strategy to him. MitD still doesn't understand.
#447: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0447.html) Nothing notable.
#451: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html) MitD grumbles.
#463: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html) MitD plays tea party with toy green dragon. Paralyzed O-Chul arrives.
#474: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0474.html) When Belkar is trying to track down Roy's corpse, he sees weird tracks that he can't recognize. They're definitely not hobgoblin footprints, or Roy's, but doesn't know what made them. MitD is still having tea party, now with dead Roy too.
#475: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) Haley and Durkon wants to retrieve Roy's body. MitD doesn't allow, shouts “Stop!” As alternate plan, Haley offers stew in exchange for Roy. Flashback to MitD eating moldy cheeseburger.
#476: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0476.html) MitD enjoys Belkar's half-cooked vulture stew. As Haley and Belkar starts to leave, MitD hears they're the Order of the Stick, who he's supposed to devour.
#477: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html) MitD thinks about whether he should eat Haley and Belkar without Xykon introducing him first. Doesn't seem to notice Belkar's attack. Haley and Belkar escape while he's still thinking. MitD stomps after demon roach's advice, causes earthquake and huge cracks in ground. “Wow! I didn't know I could do that!” Belkar lets O-Chul go, O-Chul falls back to MitD. MitD is “really tired all of a sudden. And still hungry.”
#484: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html) MitD carries the paralyzed O-Chul.
#541: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0541.html) MitD is now in a large box with barred window. Wants to join Team Evil in betting game. Again bets on O-Chul escaping.
#543: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html) MitD says he hoped O-Chul would escape, but it didn't work. Still doesn't know gates. Wants to get out of the box, Xykon doesn't let him.
#549: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0549.html) MitD is friends with O-Chul, trades food with him. Tells he eats anything but babies. Wants to start a club that girls can't join.
#550: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) O-Chul questions MitD about why he's friends with Team Evil. MitD wants to play, O-Chul promises to play go with him in the morning.
#651: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html) MitD tells O-Chul about his youth. He always lived in the rainforest, although need not have been born there. His dad was BIG and a big eater. The MitD doesn't know what species he is or where he belongs, but thinks Redcloak and Xykon know. O-Chul convinces the MitD to start to think for himself, with a cheesy go metaphor. We see the go board. Fart joke at MitD's expense when Vaarsuvius arrives with a bang.
#652: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html) MitD does not appear. Vaarsuvius casts Quickened Dimensional Anchor spell, its ray misses Xykon.
#654: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0654.html) MitD still wants to get the darkness lit up. O-Chul escapes, and in his parting words, reminds the MitD of the lesson from #651. MitD calls O-Chul his real name for the first time.
#658: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0658.html) MitD is worried about O-Chul.
#661: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html) MitD says O-Chul needs to escape now, because Xykon will be really angry. Calls O-Chul his friend again. Shouts “ESCAPE”, O-Chul and Vaarsuvius disappear. Xykon doesn't seem to realize it was the MitD's doing.
#662: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html) MitD is sleeping (or pretending to).
#663: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0663.html) (MitD not present.) Vaarsuvius and O-Chul turn out to have arrived in Hinjo's camp. O-Chul requests the most learned scribe because he has questions about the escape.
#699: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0699.html) MitD tries to replicate the escape on a hobgoblin. Deliberately misinterpreted Redcloak's words to bother someone else. Hobgoblin tells him he'd need to use magic for that to work, MitD says he's too dumb for that. MitD is worried about where he sent his friends and if they're safe. Mentions the other planes.
#700: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html) MitD is not allowed in Tsukiko's room. MitD asks Tsukiko's help because she knows both types of magic. They discuss Tsukiko's fascination with the undead. MitD recognizes ritual scroll as “half a ritual”. Tsukiko promises she'll try to help him find his friend.
#701: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html) Hobgoblin from #699 asks MitD to open the curtains before Redcloak's speech. MitD warns him about clumsiness with pulling a rope. MitD thinks the goblins are cheering for his performance with the curtain.
#702: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html) Nothing.
#703: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0703.html) MitD reads Gobbotopia history booklet. Joke about how Jirix was dead.
#704: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html) Redcloak thinks MitD doesn't know what a prime minister is.
#709: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0709.html) MitD meets up with Tsukiko to call in her promise to find his friends. Tsukiko tells him he shouldn't be friends with paladins, and that she can't help because the Cloister spell protects O-Chul from divination. Joke about Xykon's balls. Even if Tsukiko and Xykon can't help, MitD hopes he'll find O-Chul eventually, and recalls the detail O-Chul said about rain.
#828: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0828.html) (MitD not present.) Redcloak says MitD still watches the crystal ball.
#831: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0831.html) MitD (still in box) informs Redcloak that Xykon is angry. (The reason is that the resistance acquired his phylactery.)
#832: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0832.html) MitD now under umbrella. (Team evil is preparing to leave.)
#833: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html) MitD still thinks of Tsukiko as a friend. Xykon says they'll take a quick detour to the Astral Plane before they go to Girard's gate. Redcloak opens portal to the Astral Plane. MitD: “Oooo! I love the Astral Plane! It's so silvery and weightless!” Xykon: “When the hell were YOU ever on the Astral Plane?” MitD: “…I don't remember. Maybe I wasn't?”
#886: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0886.html) MitD does not appear in OotS's illusionary imagination of confrontation with Team Evil.
#887: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0887.html) In tiny picture in illusion montage, MitD under umbrella drinking tea with O-Chul, while Elan, Roy and Durkon are present.
#899: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0899.html) Team Evil arrives to Girard's pyramid, MitD under umbrella.
#900: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0900.html) MitD's umbrella damaged after pyramid explodes. He asks which pelvis Xykon is looking for.
#901: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html) MitD recognizes the Order of the Stick, knows they are O-Chul's friends. MitD refers to the paralyzed O-Chul accidentally falling to his tea party as him having captured O-Chul. Worried about the party, bluffs to Xykon that O-Chul and Vaarsuvius are more dangerous and must be already at Kraagor's dungeon, while Roy's party distracts Team Evil here. He cleverly uses the fact that Xykon never remembers Roy. The bluff works, they depart to Kraagor's dungeon immediately.
#1036: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1036.html) MitD shows off his new umbrella to Oona, with drawings of duckies.
#1037: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html) Oona calls him “Great Beast in Shadow”, magnificent and majestic, “like in wildest dreams”. He saw MitD under umbrella. He and Greyview the dog treats him as if he was Xykon's pet who should obey Xykon, but MitD isn't willing to accept that idea. Oona says he almost bought two humans as food to MitD, seems to have heard that a human was MitD's best friend, but misunderstood as if he was his favourite snack. He also says he'd seen under the umbrella, he's a “magnificent monster”, envies Xykon for owning him, and thinks it's a waste keeping him in the shadows. Also says that the MitD is small but will grow.
#1038: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html) MitD understands that Redcloak needs to prepare his spells. Shows suspicious understanding of goblin culture with big words, demon roach lampshades that as clue to MitD puzzle.
#1039: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html) MitD gets permission to do the painting tonight.
#1040: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1040.html) MitD feels lucky about new company, picks a door. Joke about adventure being off-screen.
#1041: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1041.html) MitD falls back, paints cross on multiple doors, including ones not on the ground floor. Holds paint can and brush as if he had two hands. Seems to leave no footprints in the snow, unlike rest of the team.
#1042: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1042.html) O-Chul and Lien covertly observe MitD doing that. O-Chul is happy that the MitD is not always obedient to Team Evil. O-Chul has a theory about MitD, but doesn't tell because nobody would believe it. O-Chul brought a go game board.
#1189: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1189.html) To be described later.
Section 6b: Appearances in Start of Darkness (http://www.giantitp.com/GIPOTS99.html) (prequel book).
page 49: MitD is sleeping then waking up. He's in the jungle and loves it there. Naively baited by a giant steak on a hook, he gets trapped in a box.
Page 50: MitD asks hunters to let him out of the box, since it doesn't open from the inside. Hunters are surprised that he talks, and talks in Common. They believe he's a rare and expensive catch. “I never expected” They'll load him into the cargo hold of a boat.
Page 83: MitD is about to perform in circus, has stage fright. He likes stew.
Page 84: The ringmaster announces him as “Prepare to feast your eyes on ‘IT!’”. Circus audience reactions: “Oh my gods…”, “It's horrible!” (closing eyes), “And yet beautiful!”, “Mommy, I feel funny looking at it.”, “Blerrrch!” (vomiting), “I've never seen anything like it!”, “Woooooo!” (Redcloak's niece), “YEAH!” (Redcloak's nephew). MitD found the performance tough. The lady who cares for him doesn't understand, because every show he just “stands out on the stage and gets gawked at”. She gives him stew and has prepared his box. The lady also says the MitD's dinner was the same stew every day for over five years. MitD still likes stew.
Page 84: After performance, Redcloak's brother Right-Eye and his children meet MitD. MitD is in the box eating the stew from a bucket. The box seems to be the same one as the one in #541. We see the box from its narrower side too: it has a window without bars there. MitD remains in this box for the rest of the book. MitD recognizes the family and plays with the younger children with his toy plush dragon from #463. Right-Eye: “Almost everyone else who spends a silver piece to get into the sideshow recoils in abject horror at the sight of you”. They leave but will return tomorrow.
Page 85: Right-Eye says that no, they can't take the MitD home. He affirms that the MitD eats a lot of stew, and can sleep.
Page 88: Presumably the next day, Redcloak, newly arrived in town, is supervising Right-Eye's children in the circus. They meet the MitD behind stage in his box again. Redcloak was impressed seeing him. MitD: “I don't fit into the leotards the trapeze artists wear. Probably has something to do with all the stew.” Redcloak affirms that the MitD could leave the circus and kill all the guards if he wanted, but MitD says that would be rude. Redcloak invites the MitD to work for him. Work involves “Being scary, mostly. Maybe some fighting.” MitD is not paid by circus, Redcloak will pay three times as much.
Page 89: In Right-Eye's home, Redcloak tells him he wants to recruit the MitD for the Plan, because he's powerful.
Page 90: During the night, Redcloak steals the monster from the circus. Lifts MitD's box onto a cart with great difficulties. MitD rocks the box to reach the bucket of stew.
Pages 91, 92, 93: Still escaping from circus. MitD doesn't help, except he can lean his weight to steer the cart.
Page 94: MitD eats cotton candy.
Page 95: Nothing notable.
Page 96: Xykon observes the MitD. Xykon says the MitD is ugly, and is his “secret weapon” now, to deal with any heroes who try to stop Xykon and the Plan, as in #103. They're unclear about the details: “Well… what do you do that really terrifies people?” “Um… let's see… I eat a lot?” “OK, then, when the heroes show up, you'll eat them!” “I've never eaten a hero before.” Xykon also magically charms the MitD to eat Redcloak if he ever betrays Xykon. MitD has swirly eyes, reacts out of character: “Yes, master”. Xykon promises him all the stew he can eat and toys, but refuses to let him out of the box when the MitD asks.
Page 100: Redcloak orders MitD to lead the zombies to attack the castle of Dorukan.
Page 101: MitD has no idea how to storm the castle. Asks zombies to bring him tacos instead.
Page 103: A zombie has brought taco. MitD eats, with bite marks. MitD abuses the authority that Redcloak left him in charge.
Page 104: MitD has a feast with a zombie bringing more taco and a goblin band playing music.
Page 105: MitD still feasting. Xykon questions Redcloak about that.
Page 109: MitD reacts to the news that Right-Eye died and won't be resurrected: “Awwwww, that sucks. He was fun.”. Offers taco to Redcloak.
Page 110, 112: Nothing notable.

Section 6c: Appearance in Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (book -1/2).
In the Scruffy story “Scruff and Tumble”, which happens in Gobbotopia while Haley leads the resistance, around the time of #514.
Page 28: In a house, a tiny psionic teleporting elephant beetle is leashed and captured in a magic circle. Redcloak enters to find the beetle gone, the leash torn. Redcloak is angry, blames the MitD for it. MitD is under the Hello Kitty umbrella.

Section 6d: Administrative notes about this list and version history.These lists try to list all appearances of the MitD and references to him in all comic strips that the Giant considers canonical for the story. I mention strips where the MitD is visible even if he's not doing anything, and strips where someone else is talking about the MitD in his absence. I do not collect appearances in non-canonical material such as calendars and ornaments and shirts.

If you find any mistakes or omissions in this list, please point it out in the active MitD thread. I will edit the list in place so that we always have the freshest information on the first page of the thread. In particular, I know there are appearances of the MitD in bonus strips of some of the books I don't have, and one appearance in Snips, Snails and Dragon Tales, and would like your help in writing entries for them. I am trying to make the list give an objective description of what we see in the comic without interpreting the scene in any particular way, so please try to stick to that style when writing entries.

Version history.
Until 2014 Back in MitD threads number 5, 6, 7, 8, Savannah posted a list of all appearances of the MitD in the comic on the first page (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17449929)
2017-11-17 I ask why this practice stopped in threads 9 and 10. Grey_Wolf_c explains that it is because Savannah refused to give permission to copy his post in later threads (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22579608). I decide to take the matter in my own hands and post a list that covers the first half of the online strips, and try to make it better than Savannah's list. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22580072) Doug Lampert also starts one, but I don't like its style so I mostly ignore it, except for making sure I haven't missed any strip. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22579903)
2017-11-19: I post an updated list that covers all online strips up to that point (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22585133)
2018-05-09: I post an updated list that also covers all of Start of Darkness (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23056887), edit it in place with last update on 2018-05-29
2018-07-08: I post the list on the first page of the new MitD thread (number 11), with prior permission of the thread curator Grey_Wolf_c. I add this administrative notes, but make no changes from the 2018-05-19 version in the actual list.
2018-07-10: Add literal quotes into #833. Previous description was brief “MitD still thinks of Tsukiko as a friend. Remark about the astral plane.” I left it like that because this is a strip I have a very strong opinion about, opposing that of some others of the thread, and didn't want to be too subjective.
2018-07-31: Fix #374. Last sentence used to say "Plays “Who Can Hit the Lightest”, hits Miko and his far through the wall, but they survive." which is both missing the word "horse" and the important information that there are new holes on the wall. Edited #477 to explicitly mention an earthquake, since the circular waves on the ground seem a clear enough sign. Also added bold keywords to the main panel of the four scenes that we seem to have clear consensus that they are key scenes (tower, ESCAPE, circus) so they're easier to find.
2018-08-22: Add entry for #652 with Dimensional Anchor.
2018-09-03: Mention Power Ranger figures explicitly in #147.
2018-10-11: Extended #474 with Belkar seeing tracks. Old text was just: “Still tea party, now with dead Roy too.”
2018-11-17: Link to #113 was incorrect.
2019-01-30: Add #259. Add new section 6c for book -1/2; other books with only few appearances can go here too.
2019-03-30: Copied post to new thread: MitD XIII: Learning is happening (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?584536).
2019-08-18: In #1037, mention that Oona thinks the MitD is small but will grow.
2019-08-21: In #1041, add sentence about footprints.


Thanks.
At least the following forum users gave helpful hints for this list, so I'm hereby thanking them: Doug Lampert, Windscion, D.One, Yendor.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Edit - I’m on my phone (about to get on a plane), but is the ANB link dead for everyone else?

The original post in the D&D forum went away, but i made a copy to a random post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20077752&postcount=944), and that is still there.

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

Okay. I realize we just had a vote, but I thought of something to add to it on Sunday (i.e., the day before it was to close), so I figured it would be better to put it off to a later vote, and then I thought of something else as well.

I would like to formally propose a vote for two changes to the FBS.

First, I would like to propose that no D&D creature with a Challenge Rating below 18 should be considered.

Every scene that showcases the creature's power suggests he's massively powerful in some way. Unveiling a CR 13 glabrezu before a level 9 party and saying "you foolish mortals can never prevail...while I have the power of this on my side" would be dubious at best; telling that same CR 13 creature "we all know how powerful you are, there's nothing in there scarier than you should be" and expecting one to deal with an ancient silver dragon is downright absurd.

Second, I would like to propose that the "must not be immune to mind-affecting" requirement be revised to "must not have mind-affecting immunity on the level of a god."

It's been made clear, with Durkon and Malack's homebrew Mass Death Ward (which, yes, I know is an official D&D spell, but Rich spelled out that he had forgotten that at the time and was treating it as a pure homebrew spell), that the OotS universe is amenable to creating homebrew spells. The spell Xykon used to hypnotize the creature in the darkness already has to be one, since there is no published spell that would have a "like Suggestion, but with a duration in years or longer" effect, and spells that are "mind-affecting, except they also affect undead/affect golems/affect X creature immune to mind-affecting effects" are common; it would be an unusually harsh DM who would declare a spell that was "like Suggestion, but with a duration of [caster level] years and also works on X creature immune to mind-affecting effects" higher than ninth level. However, a spell that could Suggest a god would be high epic.

[Mightymosy]

I vote A. Same reason as last vote.

[thelivingmonkey]

Uh too early to vote bc no one has seconded a vote yet (I think).

If the lotseys ever rise up or something I will unlurk and make some impassioned speech about how violence is never the answer but that I know I cannot stop what the people truly want, I just want no part in it (as thinking about the long term consequences make me queasy).

If I were to ever make an alternate FBS list, and I wanted any sort of public approval, or at least acknowledgement, I would put at least one con for my pet favorite creature, just saying. Also I appreciate the list of appropriate sources there, that is a great resource for the thread that I think everyone should thank you for.

Also I think it's funny that a thread about a monster shrouded in darkness has so many people lurking in it who voted at the last second.

[Joerg]

I tend to second Kish's second suggestion, but I don't know if it would currently change anything. Is there a creature which has been excluded from the FBS solely because of this?

For the first suggestion, I don't know enough about CR to know whether 18 or 15 or 22 would be a good lower limit. And what about creatures which do not have a D&D CR?

I'd like to suggest that 'huge' size is no longer listed as a con for the FBS creatures. Also, the protean entry should mention (as a con?) that proteans can speak all languages. I don't know whether we need a vote for this.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I would like to propose that no D&D creature with a Challenge Rating below 18 should be considered.

This has been suggested before, and IIRC, at the time I was told that CR, especially in 3rd parties, tends to be so broken that it is not a realiable indicator of power level.


I would like to propose that the "must not be immune to mind-affecting" requirement be revised to "must not have mind-affecting immunity on the level of a god."

It's been made clear, with Durkon and Malack's homebrew Mass Death Ward (which, yes, I know is an official D&D spell, but Rich spelled out that he had forgotten that at the time and was treating it as a pure homebrew spell), that the OotS universe is amenable to creating homebrew spells. The spell Xykon used to hypnotize the creature in the darkness already has to be one, since there is no published spell that would have a "like Suggestion, but with a duration in years or longer" effect, and spells that are "mind-affecting, except they also affect undead/affect golems/affect X creature immune to mind-affecting effects" are common; it would be an unusually harsh DM who would declare a spell that was "like Suggestion, but with a duration of [caster level] years and also works on X creature immune to mind-affecting effects" higher than ninth level. However, a spell that could Suggest a god would be high epic.

My problem with this is that this is a very specialised spell that, if Xkon has spent resources developing and taking up one of his precious spell known slots, you'd think would see more use, but Xykon isn't surrounded by more mind-controlled creatures than he is.


I'd like to suggest that 'huge' size is no longer listed as a con for the FBS creatures.
I'm on the fence about this. Any other takers?


the protean entry should mention (as a con?) that proteans can speak all languages.

The fluff says that proteans speak a constantly changing language that only proteans can figure out.

Grey Wolf

[Rob Redblade]

Okay. I realize we just had a vote, but I thought of something to add to it on Sunday (i.e., the day before it was to close), so I figured it would be better to put it off to a later vote, and then I thought of something else as well.

I would like to formally propose a vote for two changes to the FBS.

First, I would like to propose that no D&D creature with a Challenge Rating below 18 should be considered.

Every scene that showcases the creature's power suggests he's massively powerful in some way. Unveiling a CR 13 glabrezu before a level 9 party and saying "you foolish mortals can never prevail...while I have the power of this on my side" would be dubious at best; telling that same CR 13 creature "we all know how powerful you are, there's nothing in there scarier than you should be" and expecting one to deal with an ancient silver dragon is downright absurd.

Second, I would like to propose that the "must not be immune to mind-affecting" requirement be revised to "must not have mind-affecting immunity on the level of a god."

It's been made clear, with Durkon and Malack's homebrew Mass Death Ward (which, yes, I know is an official D&D spell, but Rich spelled out that he had forgotten that at the time and was treating it as a pure homebrew spell), that the OotS universe is amenable to creating homebrew spells. The spell Xykon used to hypnotize the creature in the darkness already has to be one, since there is no published spell that would have a "like Suggestion, but with a duration in years or longer" effect, and spells that are "mind-affecting, except they also affect undead/affect golems/affect X creature immune to mind-affecting effects" are common; it would be an unusually harsh DM who would declare a spell that was "like Suggestion, but with a duration of [caster level] years and also works on X creature immune to mind-affecting effects" higher than ninth level. However, a spell that could Suggest a god would be high epic.

I support the vote for the Challenge Rating change; in my few searches, I tend to ignore anything below 15. Not sure about the mind-affecting thing. If it's home brewed and powerful enough, it can work as is, I think.


I'm on the fence about this. Any other takers?Grey Wolf

/raises hand "Here!"


2nd edit: What was the purpose of the "mind-controlling scene" then? I mean, if there are no spells in D&D that could work like that, what was the point of using it on MitD? I know Xykon is not the most knowledgeable/savvy guy, it's quite possible he used a new thing he learned to do without knowing that if the betrayal didn't happen in the next fortnight, it would fizzle. I have a feeling that everything "Start of Darkness" has some importance, but I have a hard time justifying the mind-control. Maybe it was simply to show us that Xykon suspects Redcloak might/will betray him? Maybe it was to telegraph that MitD is not a deity of any kind? Maybe it was to show how dumb Xykon is, really? That scene is the more perplexing to me, to be honest.

[3Power]

Okay. I realize we just had a vote, but I thought of something to add to it on Sunday (i.e., the day before it was to close), so I figured it would be better to put it off to a later vote, and then I thought of something else as well.

I would like to formally propose a vote for two changes to the FBS.

First, I would like to propose that no D&D creature with a Challenge Rating below 18 should be considered.

Every scene that showcases the creature's power suggests he's massively powerful in some way. Unveiling a CR 13 glabrezu before a level 9 party and saying "you foolish mortals can never prevail...while I have the power of this on my side" would be dubious at best; telling that same CR 13 creature "we all know how powerful you are, there's nothing in there scarier than you should be" and expecting one to deal with an ancient silver dragon is downright absurd.
I agree, but I would prefer CR 15 "To be safe." OOTS ultimately appears to be a level 12-17ish campaign, and the party seems to be eternally around level 15.



Second, I would like to propose that the "must not be immune to mind-affecting" requirement be revised to "must not have mind-affecting immunity on the level of a god."

It's been made clear, with Durkon and Malack's homebrew Mass Death Ward (which, yes, I know is an official D&D spell, but Rich spelled out that he had forgotten that at the time and was treating it as a pure homebrew spell), that the OotS universe is amenable to creating homebrew spells. The spell Xykon used to hypnotize the creature in the darkness already has to be one, since there is no published spell that would have a "like Suggestion, but with a duration in years or longer" effect, and spells that are "mind-affecting, except they also affect undead/affect golems/affect X creature immune to mind-affecting effects" are common; it would be an unusually harsh DM who would declare a spell that was "like Suggestion, but with a duration of [caster level] years and also works on X creature immune to mind-affecting effects" higher than ninth level. However, a spell that could Suggest a god would be high epic.I agree with the homebrew. Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage is also a thing. The idea of "Xykon's contingent suggestion/command undead" isn't that far-fetched.

I am in agreement that non-divine mind-effect immunity is not an automatic dealbreaker.

EDIT:


The fluff says that proteans speak a constantly changing language that only proteans can figure out.
This is true, but they also speak and understand all languages as per the Epic Level Handbook.

[thereaper]

But if they normally speak a language that no one can understand, it would be surprising that one would speak in Common. So that would actually be a point in favor of the Protean.

[Kish]

My problem with this is that this is a very specialised spell that, if Xkon has spent resources developing and taking up one of his precious spell known slots, you'd think would see more use, but Xykon isn't surrounded by more mind-controlled creatures than he is.
Because if it functions like by-the-book Suggestion, what Vaarsuvius did to the young adult dragon aside, it's not mind control--it's just "you'll take this one course of action in response to a trigger." Who else would that be useful on?

Redcloak, maybe, but Xykon took pains to set up a "will you act to defend me without your mind being influenced by magic?" test for him. And no one else I can think of.

And what about creatures which do not have a D&D CR?
My proposal deliberately excludes non-D&D monsters from any change at all. If it passes, people can go right on proposing Godzilla.


I'd like to suggest that 'huge' size is no longer listed as a con for the FBS creatures.
Wasn't that just voted down?

[Peelee]

Because if it functions like by-the-book Suggestion, what Vaarsuvius did to the young adult dragon aside, it's not mind control--it's just "you'll take this one course of action in response to a trigger." Who else would that be useful on?

By RAW/RAI, is there a functional difference between mind control and a spell with the Mind-Affecting and Compulsion tags?

[Kish]

Let me rephrase: The spell Xykon demonstrated in Start of Darkness does not make it a plot hole that Xykon is not surrounded by people with swirly eyes who do nothing but whatever he tells them to do.

If every hobgoblin in Gobbotopia has the same "if Redcloak betrays Xykon eat him and spit out his holy symbol" trigger the creature in the darkness does, how would anyone but Rich even know?

[Squire Doodad]

Let me rephrase: The spell Xykon demonstrated in Start of Darkness does not make it a plot hole that Xykon is not surrounded by people with swirly eyes who do nothing but whatever he tells them to do.

If every hobgoblin in Gobbotopia has the same "if Redcloak betrays Xykon eat him and spit out his holy symbol" trigger the creature in the darkness does, how would anyone but Rich even know?


...
...
Magic

[Sir_Norbert]

Wasn't that just voted down?

No. The options related to Size in the previous vote (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?578378-MitD-XII-This-Space-Intentionally-Left-Dark/page35) were B: "Remove Upper Size Limit" and C: "Add minimum Size Limit: Large".

C is clearly distinct from Joerg's proposal.

If you were thinking of B, then the effect of B would be that creatures of any size can be included in FBS. Joerg's proposal wouldn't allow any new creatures to enter FBS (Huge is already within the acceptable size range), it would just stop "Huge" from being listed as a con in each creature's write-up.

I agree with the proposal, since MitD does say that his father was "BIG" in capitals, suggesting there may be a size category difference between them -- while I would (and did) disagree with B, since I don't think that opens the door to MitD's species being any size.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Wasn't that just voted down?

Not really; they just mean "size is neither a pro nor a con to a Huge creature". I feel it is a con, though, which is why it's there, but it's not a hill I'll die on if enough people think otherwise.

Re: mind control: the other argument (sorry, should've mentioned it in my first post on the topic) is the "why was that scene included in the book, given the lack of pay-off?" The usual answer, according to the Giant, tends to be "there is a reason, just wait", so honestly I'd rather take it at face value ("MitD is mind controllable") until it does come up, and then revise. If Xykon suddenly mind controls another non-mind-controllable creature, sure. Otherwise, I'm not sure we have enough evidence to assume he has a epic spell to mind control non-mind-controllable creatures he happened to develop at great personal cost before he needed it and has had the chance to use exactly once.

As to another vote, I'm going to be honest: I'm completely opposed because it is exhausting to run one of those things, and I just had to do two in a row.

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

Not really; they just mean "size is neither a pro nor a con to a Huge creature". I feel it is a con, though, which is why it's there, but it's not a hill I'll die on if enough people think otherwise.

Re: mind control: the other argument (sorry, should've mentioned it in my first post on the topic) is the "why was that scene included in the book, given the lack of pay-off?" The usual answer, according to the Giant, tends to be "there is a reason, just wait", so honestly I'd rather take it at face value ("MitD is mind controllable") until it does come up, and then revise.
I'm certain there will be a payoff, involving the command being triggered.

I am equally certain that it did take effect (in light of the creature's reaction, swirly eyes and otherwise).

I am less certain that that scene was aimed at the benefit of us in this thread (I'm guessing here that this is the implication of there being no payoff if it was a spell that could mind control a creature that couldn't normally be mind-controlled, since as far as the story goes I'm not seeing the difference between "Xykon casts his homebrewed Years-Long Works-On-Golems Suggestion and the zodar MitD is Suggested" and "Xykon casts his homebrewed Years-Long Suggestion and the slaad MitD is Suggested").

About the second vote so soon...sorry. If I could go back in time and suggest adding those two options to the previous vote a day in, I absolutely would.

[Rob Redblade]

Re: mind control: the other argument (sorry, should've mentioned it in my first post on the topic) is the "why was that scene included in the book, given the lack of pay-off?" The usual answer, according to the Giant, tends to be "there is a reason, just wait", so honestly I'd rather take it at face value ("MitD is mind controllable") until it does come up, and then revise.

Grey Wolf

That's a really good point. I trust Rich this is going somewhere and I remember his "outburst" about calling for plot holes before the end.


As to another vote, I'm going to be honest: I'm completely opposed because it is exhausting to run one of those things, and I just had to do two in a row.

Yeah. That's also a very good point.

[Mightymosy]

[...]


Yeah. That's also a very good point.

See, that's why I voted for A in advance :smallwink:

[CriticalFailure]

I'd agree with huge size not being a con

[thereaper]

Not really; they just mean "size is neither a pro nor a con to a Huge creature". I feel it is a con, though, which is why it's there, but it's not a hill I'll die on if enough people think otherwise.

Re: mind control: the other argument (sorry, should've mentioned it in my first post on the topic) is the "why was that scene included in the book, given the lack of pay-off?" The usual answer, according to the Giant, tends to be "there is a reason, just wait", so honestly I'd rather take it at face value ("MitD is mind controllable") until it does come up, and then revise. If Xykon suddenly mind controls another non-mind-controllable creature, sure. Otherwise, I'm not sure we have enough evidence to assume he has a epic spell to mind control non-mind-controllable creatures he happened to develop at great personal cost before he needed it and has had the chance to use exactly once.

As to another vote, I'm going to be honest: I'm completely opposed because it is exhausting to run one of those things, and I just had to do two in a row.

Grey Wolf

In fairness, I'm almost certain that what Xykon used was a custom epic spell, simply because of the duration. Any creature powerful enough to be MitD is going to have a will save so high that a standard suggestion spell would almost certainly fail. So unless we assume Xykon is burning 20 spell slots every day or so forcing a nat 1 on MitD, we can assume that whatever he's using is of permanent (or at least arbitrarily long) duration. Then we need only assume a single natural 1 on MitD's side, and no additional resources spent on Xykon's side. This implies an epic spell.

It doesn't, however, necessarily imply that the spell in question works on things immune to mind control.

[Joerg]

But if they normally speak a language that no one can understand, it would be surprising that one would speak in Common. So that would actually be a point in favor of the Protean.
But the entry currently reads as if they could only speak their own language, which is misleading. I guess the 'normally' was meant as "they can, but choose not to speak common" but I interpreted it as "they can't if they are a normal protean".



As to another vote, I'm going to be honest: I'm completely opposed because it is exhausting to run one of those things, and I just had to do two in a row.


I totally understand. I was hoping my suggestions would need no vote (since they don't change the FBS criteria) or one could just integrate them into another vote (about Kish's suggestions). But I don't need a vote for them now and can table them until another vote is on the way (if they need a vote).

[Kish]

My suggestions will only be voted on if two people formally second the call for a vote.

[Aveline]

Out of curiosity, are there terribly many contenders known to reproduce non-biologically (e.g. magically or psionically or something else I understand exactly as little of)?

What I'm trying to suggest is some kind of construct or outsider (etc) whose progenitor could have accidentally created it extra-small, sidestepping the STR-based size reduction test by saying that its strength doesn't come from its body, per se.

A creature like that would also have to answer the questions of how it can be mind-controlled and why it eats food, but depending on the creature those answers could be as simple as "because it's not passively mindblanked, and because it likes eating".

[Rob Redblade]

My suggestions will only be voted on if two people formally second the call for a vote.

I would contend that 3Powers and myself provided that for the challenge rating part. Albeit with a modification that CR15 would be a reasonable lower limit. However, I side with Grey Wolf that a vote right now isn't a good idea. The last 15 pages of the previous thread were kinda hellish, with a complicated vote, followed immediately by the new thread title vote and posting the new thread. He deserves a break.

[Kish]

Would it help if I volunteer to track the votes? I do feel guilty about putting another vote on Grey Wolf so soon.

[Mightymosy]

In fairness, I'm almost certain that what Xykon used was a custom epic spell, simply because of the duration. Any creature powerful enough to be MitD is going to have a will save so high that a standard suggestion spell would almost certainly fail. So unless we assume Xykon is burning 20 spell slots every day or so forcing a nat 1 on MitD, we can assume that whatever he's using is of permanent (or at least arbitrarily long) duration. Then we need only assume a single natural 1 on MitD's side, and no additional resources spent on Xykon's side. This implies an epic spell.

It doesn't, however, necessarily imply that the spell in question works on things immune to mind control.

Alternative: The monster is not statted in the D&D version OotS uses and thus doesn't even HAVE a will save to defend against Xykon's spell (like the creatures in the dungeon of Dorukan).

Would that help in Xykon not needing a super special Epic spell he never used again?

[Crusher]

I say we impose a temporary vote moratorium of a couple weeks or something. Seriously, didn’t we just do an FBS criteria vote this week?

Lets just discuss for a bit. If memory serves, thats how past votes have typically come about. Someone says “Hey, what do people think about X?” Then a discussion happens around it and if people generally gravitate to a particular point of view (which might not be the original proposal) then everyone kinda says “hey, this is a good idea, we should do this” and we have a vote.

Voting should be the end of the process, not the beginning in a “Lets see if people like X” kind of way. This last time, we didn’t necessarily come to a consensus before voting but we had like 30 pages of discussion to establish battle-lines so that was good enough.

[Squire Doodad]

I say we impose a temporary vote moratorium of a couple weeks or something. Seriously, didn’t we just do an FBS criteria vote this week?
Sure. How about 2 weeks?


Someone says “Hey, what do people think about X?” Then a discussion happens around it and if people generally gravitate to a particular point of view (which might not be the original proposal) then everyone kinda says “hey, this is a good idea, we should do this” and we have a vote.

Ooh, me me! No really, give me a moment to find my notes...
I'm not kidding, I have a proposal for a candidate.
ETA: Found it.
Mythological Tarasque
I'd actually like to add the Tarasque to the list of proposals. The mythological Tarasque, which is extremely different in comparison to the version found in D&D.
I wrote this on the last thread towards the end, but because of the name vote it kind of got swept under the carpet so to speak.
I do not think it would be an FBS due to a lack of ability to teleport among a few other issues, but it has many other viable aspects.
The Tarasque is a beast from French mythology. I even have 13 reason why it could be a Tarasque. I actually have more reasons, but I stopped because it felt appropriate.


The Tarasque is found in a marsh and is from the highlands, meaning that finding it in a jungle is quite bizarre.
The Tarasque generally does not speak, meaning that seeing it speak in Common is surprising.
The Tarasque looks weird as heck. It has a turtle like shell covered with spikes, an assortment of legs, and a vaguely humanoid to completely monstrous face depending on the depiction. The most normal thing about it is that it has two typically yellow eyes.
Six legs and a tail means weird tracks.
Some depictions show it being able to walk on its hind legs, but even if it couldn't it could plausibly use either its tail (long enough for grabbing short ranged things, but not too long to invalidate the lack of limbs shown in certain scenes) or walk with four legs and grab with the other two.
The Tarasque does not have any D&D stats giving it some leeway, but it is incredibly strong, capable of sinking boats and devouring people. If it can easily sink a boat, I would imagine that it should have fairly little trouble punching someone through a wall.
Furthermore, it was capable of withstanding assaults from knights and catapults, suggesting it is strong enough to take negligible damage from Miko's assault.
Lack of preset D&D levels means it cannot help out with reanimating without leveling up.
It does not seem to be immune to mind altering effects as it was calmed and charmed by Saint Martha.
The Tarasque is very big, but not overwhelmingly so and a young one would fit just fine in a box.
Speaking of which, if they are devouring anyone who crosses a marsh then they would be eating a lot which fits in with the "MitD's dad ate a LOT" bit.
Is from a text that predates Rich Burlew. And D&D. It's plenty old enough.
Is not the embodiment of anything.




Since the Tarrasque exists as a D&D monster (albeit a very different one), it might seem like cheating for the Giant to use it.
No way to explain the Escape scene that I am aware of.


Anyone willing to second this as a proposal? Not FBS or anything, just a run of the mill proposal.

[Crusher]

I'm not kidding, I have a proposal for a candidate.

Oooh, really?

Edit - Hmm, I see. Do you have a link to depixtions of it in folklore?

[thelivingmonkey]

I say we impose a temporary vote moratorium of a couple weeks or something. Seriously, didn’t we just do an FBS criteria vote this week?

Lets just discuss for a bit. If memory serves, thats how past votes have typically come about. Someone says “Hey, what do people think about X?” Then a discussion happens around it and if people generally gravitate to a particular point of view (which might not be the original proposal) then everyone kinda says “hey, this is a good idea, we should do this” and we have a vote.

Voting should be the end of the process, not the beginning in a “Lets see if people like X” kind of way. This last time, we didn’t necessarily come to a consensus before voting but we had like 30 pages of discussion to establish battle-lines so that was good enough.

Funny. If we had a vote about what we should do now I'd vote for this option (the no more vote).

Seriously, we just had a vote where we decided on exactly 0 changes. Give it a rest people. If you come up with a great idea, people will voice their opinions on it and if the consensus is in your favor, that's when you CONSIDER calling a vote.

I'm down for a lot of the smaller changes (alignment embodiment rec, some of the text in pros/cons being altered/added), but since they are so small there is little to no urgency.

I would really like to see someone make a good argument for why an embodiment of evil could be MitD, because then my pet pick the Glabrezu becomes more viable. The current evidence is pretty nonexistent (a possible LG deva messed with some slaads, roy's archon (LG) did a single chaotic thing once, that's it), but it seems like it could be an interesting debate.

[Squire Doodad]

Oooh, really?

Edit - Hmm, I see. Do you have a link to depixtions of it in folklore?

Not on hand, though the wikipedia page does have a couple images. I'm aware that wikipedia isn't exactly a reliable source, but I was looking for imagery not information. The images basically show it as being roughly like a ankylosaurid creature with six legs and a lion's head, though I have seen a picture that shows it with a more human head. Either way, its in line with what I read as a child.
If you need a specific link, I found this (http://allaboutdragons.com/dragons/File:Tarasque.jpg) which appears to be a contemporary depiction.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Do you have a link to depixtions of it in folklore?

https://assets.atlasobscura.com/media/W1siZiIsInVwbG9hZHMvcGxhY2VfaW1hZ2VzL2ZiOWI2YzU3NT M2N2FlODY3Y2VhMGQ2MDAwMzVkMDM5NTU0ZDQ4NzEuanBnIl0s WyJwIiwidGh1bWIiLCJ4MzkwPiJdLFsicCIsImNvbnZlcnQiLC ItcXVhbGl0eSA4MSAtYXV0by1vcmllbnQiXV0/fb9b6c575367ae867cea0d600035d039554d4871.jpg.

In any case, added it to 3e.

Grey Wolf

[Squire Doodad]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarasque#/media/File:TarasqueStatue.jpg.

In any case, added it to 3e.

Grey Wolf

Alright, thank you very much :smallbiggrin:
What does it mean by "Probably would be the Tarrasque in OotS."?

Oh and while I'm here "Tonberri" (Section 3c) is mispelled - it should be "Tonberry". Unless it is referring to a specific one, but the Tonberry's abilities don't vary much and as such using the general spelling should work better.

[CriticalFailure]

ok. My argument is that when it comes to size:

It's extremely likely that the MiTD's species is at least one size category larger than it is drawn, based on 1) Oona's statement that MiTD is "so small... but will grow in time," 2) MiTD is clearly a child, meaning that more likely than not he's smaller than an adult (especially since the MiTD seemed to truly get his child personality cemented around the time his species would have been firmly decided - making him a child could've been related to the discrepancy between MiTD's size versus its species stats), 3) MiTD says his father was larger than he is, and 4) the comic has taken a number of liberties with creature size as it is (goblins, sylphs, etc) and it wouldn't be surprising if there was some bending of size with MiTD.

[Squire Doodad]

ok. My argument is that when it comes to size:

It's extremely likely that the MiTD's species is at least one size category larger than it is drawn, based on 1) Oona's statement that MiTD is "so small... but will grow in time," 2) MiTD is clearly a child, meaning that more likely than not he's smaller than an adult (especially since the MiTD seemed to truly get his child personality cemented around the time his species would have been firmly decided - making him a child could've been related to the discrepancy between MiTD's size versus its species stats), 3) MiTD says his father was larger than he is, and 4) the comic has taken a number of liberties with creature size as it is (goblins, sylphs, etc) and it wouldn't be surprising if there was some bending of size with MiTD.
I mean, it would be understandable if MitD is large or huge and the creature is huge or maybe on of the smaller Gargantuans. If MitD is a bit small for his species and the adult of the species is towards the lower end of a size category, it makes sense that he would be akin to the larger end of the next size category down. Scale for being young, and the maximum size category (at least in my mind) is fairly broad.

However, it would still be absurd for him to be a Colossal creature. It is certainly possible, and if the only issue is that the creature is colossal it would be quite the candidate. However, said creature would probably need to also have astronomical STR or remarkably specific fluff (i.e. "the [creature] boasts impressive might even as a newborn, getting even stronger as it ages" or "[creature]s experience rapid growth as they begin to near maturity, swiftly reaching the power they are known for in legend.") in order for it to also be able to have enough power when it is a child.

As we spent OVER 12 PAGES ARGUING ABOUT, if a creature barely reaches the lower end of the viable spectrum and is vastly larger than the MitD shown, then it can't be resized to fit. The same applies even to things a good way into the "Tower Scene" zone - if it has 40 STR but is large enough to squish a small village with its feet, then I doubt a young version would actually be able to have enough STR for the scene.

[CriticalFailure]

I agree that colossal is still very unlikely. I think colossal size should still be considered a con.

With this information huge creatures definitely shouldn't have their size be considered a con. Based on Oona's comments about how MiTD is so small and will grow, and MiTD's statement that his father is much larger, it seems more likely that MiTD is a juvenile of a Huge species than a Large species.

Gargantuan is less likely, but I think it's possible given that MiTD is expected to grow and the comic plays fast and loose with creature sizes.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I agree that colossal is still very unlikely. I think colossal size should still be considered a con.

With this information huge creatures definitely shouldn't have their size be considered a con. Based on Oona's comments about how MiTD is so small and will grow, and MiTD's statement that his father is much larger, it seems more likely that MiTD is a juvenile of a Huge species than a Large species.

Gargantuan is less likely, but I think it's possible given that MiTD is expected to grow and the comic plays fast and loose with creature sizes.

Even if that is true - and I'm far from convinced it would do so for MitD beyond one step (and reminder, MitD is currently a large Medium, or a really small (sub-8 feet) Large) - the comic does NOT play fast an loose with strength. Human children are not as strong as adults.

Reminder that there exists (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm) a table to make creatures bigger that grants them very significant strength gains as they climb beyond Large. It seems perfectly reasonable to run the table in reverse, at which point a creature that as an adult is Huge would have -16 strength as a Normal sized child. It gets even worse from there, just as it gets worse to imagine how MitD could be baby or fetus-sized after 30 years and have the attitude of a 10 year old.

Repeating over and over "well the dad is much bigger" doesn't magically justify that the species has ten year-olds grow fivefold before becoming adults. A "much bigger" dad can describe an adult that is 50% to 100% larger that MitD currently is - and that is still only Large, or maybe a tiny Huge. And anything beyond that, one has to wonder what kind of absurd growth spurts would be awaiting MitD.

Grey Wolf

[Squire Doodad]

And anything beyond that, one has to wonder what kind of absurd growth spurts would be awaiting MitD.

Grey Wolf

Turns out the next page after the current scene is MitD suddenly being the size of a small house and wondering how he still fits in the darkness.

[CriticalFailure]

I mean, I agree that MiTD probably won't grow into a colossal creature but it's also not reasonable to apply the growth time line of real life humans to the situation either. I don't see why "humans don't grow that much from pre-teen to adult" is supposed to rule out MiTD being a member of a Huge species here.

Also, what age range equivalent is the MiTD pinned down as? I don't really know what range "young enough to play with transformers and have tea parties, old enough to be interested in dwarf sex" translates to.

[Crusher]

Turns out the next page after the current scene is MitD suddenly being the size of a small house and wondering how he still fits in the darkness.

That would be funny and require a pretty serious revision in how we view size. But as it stands, we don’t have that data point to work with.

[Squire Doodad]

That would be funny and require a pretty serious revision in how we view size. But as it stands, we don’t have that data point to work with.

And Protean would still technically work fine! Assuming he was shapeshifting to a new species.


I mean, I agree that MiTD probably won't grow into a colossal creature but it's also not reasonable to apply the growth time line of real life humans to the situation either. I don't see why "humans don't grow that much from pre-teen to adult" is supposed to rule out MiTD being a member of a Huge species here.

Also, what age range equivalent is the MiTD pinned down as? I don't really know what range "young enough to play with transformers and have tea parties, old enough to be interested in dwarf sex" translates to.

I think it's been assumed (and therefore established as an informal standard) that MitD is somewhere from 11-14, being either somewhat mature or extremely childish depending on which end of that spectrum, but childish nonetheless.

I think Grey Wolf's point is that while it sounds easy to project a child going from one age group to the next being like one size category to the next, you would only see a change in any size category at all from newborn to adult (assuming a species is not specifically on the cusp of a certain size). Most animals have significant changes in growth, but going from a being that is nearing but not quite at maturity to an adult would not usually mean a size category change unless they are already on the border.
Think of it in human terms: while humans go through significant growth spurts around puberty, they aren't nearly as big as a size category difference. We might grow over 20% of the original height (from a preteen to a fully grown person), but the change from one size category to the next is double the size. A shift in size that significant is like instead of your 11 year old cousin going from 5'3'' to 6'2'' by the time he is 18, he inexplicably goes from 5'3'' to 9'8''.
So if MitD is a very big Large now, and the adult size is unknown, it could plausibly turn out to be a moderate Huge with some margin of error. But if MitD is a very small Huge now (or even anything that is not a very big Huge), he cannot turn out to be a Gargantuan when he is an adult.
Huh, it makes sense to me now.

[Peelee]

Even if that is true - and I'm far from convinced it would do so for MitD beyond one step (and reminder, MitD is currently a large Normal
A large Medium, you mean?

the comic does NOT play fast an loose with strength. Human children are not as strong as adults.

The Young Adult Black Dragon also was not as strong as the Ancient mother, for another example.

[Doug Lampert]

I'll agree that no vote should yet take place, but I think both of Kish's suggestions are reasonable and will back a vote at some point in the future.

The MitD must be fairly powerful to work, I'd be surprised if it was as low as CR 18. I could see some debate over what the limit should be, since it's best to err on the side of too low rather than too high, but if it's a D&D 3.x creature I'd really expect it to be epic. Xylon still treats the MitD as significant.

Similarly, the spell used on the MitD MUST, of necessity, be a homebrew spell, and we know that Xylon uses such spells (Xylon's moderately escapable forcecage).

Given that we know it is homebrew, and we additionally know that spells that work like a mind-affecting spell on creatures immune to such exist (control undead and command undead just in the SRD), so we have no reason to assume it is NOT a homebrew version of control or command undead with longer duration rather than a homebrew version of an actual mind control spell.

I'd also be willing to vote for huge size not being a con. We have a handful of creatures with multiple sizes at different ages. Giants as infants have no listed size or combat ability, but juveniles are -2 size categories and adolescents are -1 size category and both ages are treated as combat capable. I find the MitD as an adolescent entirely believable and the scaling/age rules for giants indicate a full size category for this. Dragons show even more extreme size growth as they age, humans not growing as much is largely irrelevant to D&D creatures.

I'd be willing to accept any size, as long as scaling down to large size still leaves a minimum of 30 strength.

[Darth Paul]

I second or fifth or sixth the motion to hold no new votes for a few weeks. We're up to page 3 already. Good grief.

3Power, your list is interesting, but I notice you state the Protean has no inherent damage reduction. The link to the description in the SRD gives it a DR 10/epic. Something seems to be amiss somewhere. Also, you list "Always CN" as a drawback. Almost every creature has an alignment listed. I think the point of MitD's character is that it doesn't matter what the base creature type's alignment is, he's choosing his own.

EDIT: Actually I see you've given it a smiley face for alignment, so I'm not sure what to make of it. What's your vetting system anyway? :smallconfused:

Crusher: I'm going to put all my chips in the stack for the Protean. (Not to spite anyone, just because I think it works best of all the candidates I've seen or contemplated.) Officially change my guess to Protean, please!

[Jineon]

I wanted to post a montage of V's children vs V vs Belkar vs Ancien Black Dragon Size but can't do it because I can't yet achieve my adult form powers of displaying links or images so, instead, I'll just go eat more stew and spout things without visual back-up.

Bottom line is: I don't think we should put too much weight on the size of the MitD and its species: in order to draw everything in an indentifiable size in the same panel, small things tend to be drawn bigger (and the reverse that big things are drawn smaller could be true).

V's children are roughly 2/3rds of an elven adult (V or Inkyrius) but a whole 1 of a Belkar (small size). The Belkster is a tall halfling, though. Meanwhile, the Ancient Black Dragon (ABD) (Huge) does appear huge relative to the medium V and I. (Strips used for comparison are #639, #636 and #645).

I have no trouble picturing the MitD as a large four-legged creature due to the size of its eyes and where the "stomp!" originates from in #477. Likewise, I can picture an ABD sized creature as filling the BIG description the MitD has for his father.

So, my bet would be that the MitD itself is Large and the specie is Huge or bigger (definite size depending on the specie's life duration and growth through it). That being said, I still think that size is a poor criterium when evaluating what species the MitD could be.

ETA: If posting modified images of the comic (shrunk, rotated, cut and pasted) is unwelcome, please let me know. My purpose isn't to denature Rich's art or go against the mods, it's just that I think that visual means are a useful tool to convey things.

[3Power]

3Power, your list is interesting, but I notice you state the Protean has no inherent damage reduction. The link to the description in the SRD gives it a DR 10/epic. Something seems to be amiss somewhere. Also, you list "Always CN" as a drawback. Almost every creature has an alignment listed. I think the point of MitD's character is that it doesn't matter what the base creature type's alignment is, he's choosing his own.

EDIT: Actually I see you've given it a smiley face for alignment, so I'm not sure what to make of it. What's your vetting system anyway? :smallconfused:

DR thing was a mistake. I looked for it and couldn't find it even when it was right in front of me. Fixed.

Also, always CN is not a drawback, the general idea is that a creature inherently good or evil is unlikely to be as conflicted as the MitD is. So moral-neutral alignments and "Usually" good or evil are :smallsmile:, "always" good or evil would be :smallconfused:, and "always" good or evil with the relevant subtype would be :smallfrown:, because that makes them an embodiment of that alignment.

Even a succubus can become a LG paladin though (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a), so it's not a dealbreaker.

[Aspheric]

So I've been lurking around this thread for a while, and there's something I've been wondering about.

I don't think it would be controversial to say that OotS has been fairly consistent in how spells and magical abilities are portrayed. Spell names are spoken by the caster, and a coloured aura emanates from the caster's hands, which we see with V and basically every other caster in OotS. There's no indication of any spellcasting when MitD smacks Miko and her horse out of the tower, resists her and Belkar's attacks, or in creating the earthquake. The only time where it seems like he explicitly uses magic is in the Escape scene, which admittedly does break with OotS' spellcasting rules; but it's the only time in the comic that this is the case, possibly to further complicate the mystery of who MitD "really is." So much of the MitD's capacities are described as physical actions (i.e. "swallow him whole," "stomp the ground," "pull on this rope," etc.) that I don't think it makes much sense to say that it's the product of Telekinesis, Earthquake, and so on.

There's another thing that bugs me about this that involves Redcloak's plan regarding the ritual. We know for certain that Redcloak needs Xykon for the ritual because it demands a powerful arcane spellcaster as well as a divine one. Most monsters with spellcasting, as I understand it, are arcane spellcasters, and the ones powerful enough to explain the Escape seem powerful enough to complete the arcane component of the ritual. This creates the following plot-related predicament: why would Redcloak betray his own brother for Xykon, if the MitD has the capacity to handle the arcane spellcasting himself? I don't think that the answer to that can be Redcloak turning around and saying, "oh whoops, MitD is powerful monster and a sorcerer, I was wrong about him after all!" I personally think this disqualifies candidates with extensive spellcasting more than anything, since it forms a real plot hole, but maybe that's just me.

Separately, I wonder if MitD actually is a child. People keep citing his immature behaviour, as if Elan hasn't done and said any of the same things as MitD. We know Elan is an adult. MitD is immature as well, yes, but I don't see why that means he's a child, besides his own admission that his dad is a lot bigger than he is now. All that really suggests for me is that MitD is, at best, not fully grown up. It seems like a stretch to interpret that as him potentially being a Gargantuan- or Colossal-sized creature, given what the actual statistics of those size categories suggest, as Grey Wolf and Kish pointed out earlier.

[3Power]

So I've been lurking around this thread for a while, and there's something I've been wondering about.

I don't think it would be controversial to say that OotS has been fairly consistent in how spells and magical abilities are portrayed. Spell names are spoken by the caster, and a coloured aura emanates from the caster's hands, which we see with V and basically every other caster in OotS. There's no indication of any spellcasting when MitD smacks Miko and her horse out of the tower, resists her and Belkar's attacks, or in creating the earthquake. The only time where it seems like he explicitly uses magic is in the Escape scene, which admittedly does break with OotS' spellcasting rules; but it's the only time in the comic that this is the case, possibly to further complicate the mystery of who MitD "really is." So much of the MitD's capacities are described as physical actions (i.e. "swallow him whole," "stomp the ground," "pull on this rope," etc.) that I don't think it makes much sense to say that it's the product of Telekinesis, Earthquake, and so on. Him appearing to explicitly use magic seems to be intended as a big plot twist, so it being hidden until then makes sense. Also, there are multiple occasions in the comic where magic is not explicitly accompanied by the spell name. Several of which include Xykon, namely, him animating the corpse of his dog as a child, him putting a sleeper trigger command on the MitD, and I seem to remember him zapping Haley during the big battle with something.


There's another thing that bugs me about this that involves Redcloak's plan regarding the ritual. We know for certain that Redcloak needs Xykon for the ritual because it demands a powerful arcane spellcaster as well as a divine one. Most monsters with spellcasting, as I understand it, are arcane spellcasters, and the ones powerful enough to explain the Escape seem powerful enough to complete the arcane component of the ritual. This creates the following plot-related predicament: why would Redcloak betray his own brother for Xykon, if the MitD has the capacity to handle the arcane spellcasting himself? I don't think that the answer to that can be Redcloak turning around and saying, "oh whoops, MitD is powerful monster and a sorcerer, I was wrong about him after all!" I personally think this disqualifies candidates with extensive spellcasting more than anything, since it forms a real plot hole, but maybe that's just me.Consider for a moment that Redcloak knows the MitD's species can cast spells. This may be his primary motive for freeing MitD from the circus, as Xykon has been MIA for an extended period of time. Then two things happen: Xykon shows up, and the MitD ends up displaying as much magic as a sedimentary rock. Xykon remains his best option because there's no guarantee the MitD will gain his spellcasting anytime soon.


Separately, I wonder if MitD actually is a child. People keep citing his immature behaviour, as if Elan hasn't done and said any of the same things as MitD. We know Elan is an adult. MitD is immature as well, yes, but I don't see why that means he's a child, besides his own admission that his dad is a lot bigger than he is now. All that really suggests for me is that MitD is, at best, not fully grown up. It seems like a stretch to interpret that as him potentially being a Gargantuan- or Colossal-sized creature, given what the actual statistics of those size categories suggest, as Grey Wolf and Kish pointed out earlier.I have liked the idea that his growth is stunted due to malnourishment. Him being constantly hungry is a well defined character trait.

[Mightymosy]

@Aspheric:
I think this is a good observation, and for me similar thoughts have made me think it unlikely that MitD is a Ha Naga or other creatures that are "real casters", in the sense of having a huge spell list.

I think MitD likely ONLY has some form of (D&D or no D&D) "wish" ability, or a very short list of "spell like abilities" of some sort.

To me, it just doesn't make that someone is secretly a wizard, without knowing, and then they "accidentally" cast a super high level spell by "wanting really hard", and THEN never managing it again, not even any form of smaller spell or anything.

To me, this just doesn't fit with how the story is written.

Does it help finding a better fit yet? Unfortunately no. It just means what I personally find likely and what not.

I haven't thought about your reasoning with RC, though. That makes even more sense, I think!

While we are at it:
One of my guesses is the Carbosilicate Amorph, which I like specifically because it can teleport but does NOT have other magic. Which fits extremely well with how I read the hints. Also, "Rich probably wouldn't..." seems like the weakest Con in the entire list, and it's the ONLY Con listed.

But I haven't read that comic, and Wikipedia doesn't help much in this regard, and I would like to understand how this teraport stuff works.
Maybe it doesn't fit so well after all?
For me, the most important thing is that MitD can teleport others without touching them and without going with them.
Can teraports be used that way?

[Squire Doodad]

@Aspheric:
While we are at it:
One of my guesses is the Carbosilicate Amorph, which I like specifically because it can teleport but does NOT have other magic. Which fits extremely well with how I read the hints. Also, "Rich probably wouldn't..." seems like the weakest Con in the entire list, and it's the ONLY Con listed.

But I haven't read that comic, and Wikipedia doesn't help much in this regard, and I would like to understand how this teraport stuff works.
Maybe it doesn't fit so well after all?
For me, the most important thing is that MitD can teleport others without touching them and without going with them.
Can teraports be used that way?

Is "teraport" something indigenous to where the Carbosilicate Amorph is from?
Anyways...
While OotS does bend the rules with teleporting quite often (Teleport is a fairly close range spell unless a high end version, as opposed to being touch range), there are theories specifically about the MitD not going with them.
The first one is of course that he bestowed a wish onto V or O-Chul, who would then be sent somewhere safe i.e. where Hinjo is.
The second one allows for more things to happen. When the Escape scene begins and V breaks through the wall, he flings a Dimensional Anchor at Xykon. He misses, Xykon makes a snappy comeback, and it is disregarded for the rest of the fight. Given how the Giant writes stories, it has been suggested that the Dimensional Anchor actually hit MitD, meaning that when he accidentally teleported O-Chul and V, he did so while under Dimensional Anchor and therefore was unable to go with them.

[locksmith of lo]

well, while i do not have much direct knowlege from game-playing experience, i have been researching and trying my hand at guessing what the MitD is.

my current opinion from the most likely roster is: Hagunemnon (Protean) fits for me the most, though the eyes and speech are my biggest doubts. the Athasian Nightmare Beast is my second choice.

today, while exploring around the internets, i wondered if we were somehow barking up the wrong tree. if there was any possibility of the MitD was some sort of parasite/host, possession, or fungal infection/host? for example if the MitD was actually a very small, juvenile, psionic parasite that was attached to an epic host, and therefore combining a small-sized or invisible psionic to some powerfully strong but horrifyingly ugly monster. a sort of master/blaster combo. the host may be large sized, and still growing. since the parasite is a juvenile, but very small, small enough that it may not be detected as seperate from the host, and undetectable as a psion. i do not know if something like this exists, but it might explain why it was not even suspected of greater teleport or wish, since its host does not have access to something like that. why it may be seriously underestimated in regards to its intelligence and knowlege, of say the astral plane for example. if we are prejudiced to see something as dumb, it is hard to see when it acts intelligently.

after some reading i found that the illithids (mind flayers) usually implant their tadpoles in humanoids, they have been known to experiment with the occasional sucess in other animals. the brain-stealer dragon, for example. there is also the possibility of only partial transformations, where the original outward characteristics are kept though with the internal transformation of a full, though juvenile, mind flayer is completed, ie. brain and digestive system. there are even the more rare and powerful form of illithid called the ulitharid.

so, my stab in the dark and totally wild guess is that the MitD is some form of seemingly failed, and possibly abandoned, experiment. an ulitharid implanted in some extrememly powerful, maybe epic, monster but failed in some aspect. sort of like the brain-stealer dragon, but without the need to eat brains? (i know that the BSD appeared after #100 but not sure if they were theoretically possible before then) so the ulitharid aspects and psionics, but mixed with a creature that can stomp, slam, and shout (maybe?). a creature that can be mistaken for one thing, but in essence is another altogether.

i don't know... i know i am grasping at straws. i have no idea if someone has already suggested this, other than the BSD. but i feel like we might be kind of looking too hard in the wrong place. hell, it might even be a monster that has all the strength, etc, and still have four-six face tentacles, further hiding its mind flayer origins. so in the first encounter it may be mistakenly identified for MONSTER X, because it resembles one closely enough. but the first time it manifests some psionic abilities, everyone will be surprised and confused.

i know it's a stretch, but why not? :smallsmile:

[Aspheric]

Him appearing to explicitly use magic seems to be intended as a big plot twist, so it being hidden until then makes sense. Also, there are multiple occasions in the comic where magic is not explicitly accompanied by the spell name. Several of which include Xykon, namely, him animating the corpse of his dog as a child, him putting a sleeper trigger command on the MitD, and I seem to remember him zapping Haley during the big battle with something.

So there are other places where this happens, my mistake. But no, it doesn't make sense for MitD to have been using magic all this time, if the "tell" for his magic in the Escape was his eyes glowing. As far as I can recall, there's no other scene where his eyes glow in response to an action he makes. My point is that magic in OotS relies on specific "tells" that indicate someone is using magic or not. If MitD was using magic in other scenes, I would expect the "tell" to be the same, or at least similarly explicit, to how it manifests in the Escape.


Consider for a moment that Redcloak knows the MitD's species can cast spells. This may be his primary motive for freeing MitD from the circus, as Xykon has been MIA for an extended period of time. Then two things happen: Xykon shows up, and the MitD ends up displaying as much magic as a sedimentary rock. Xykon remains his best option because there's no guarantee the MitD will gain his spellcasting anytime soon.

It's true that MitD hasn't been aware of the extent of his abilities, but I'm not convinced by this interpretation. If it was specifically the MitD's magical prowess that motivated Redcloak to rescue him, why didn't Redcloak state anything to that effect? Why would no one in this thread think of that, if it was actually in the text of the comic itself? Granted I haven't read SoD, so I can't really comment on anything with specifity here, but I would think that a creature that depends upon spellcasting for their power wouldn't hide it.


I have liked the idea that his growth is stunted due to malnourishment. Him being constantly hungry is a well defined character trait.

Out of curiosity, how do MitD's actions indicate he is stunted or unhealthy? His appetite itself could speak to any number of things, and I could be wrong, but I don't see anywhere in the comic where people wonder if he's ill, or unwell, or malnourished. Oona says in #1037 that he "will grow in time," though, so I might be wrong about there not being people who refer to him as a kid and such in the comic.

[Joerg]

The teraport is somewhat like a science fiction teleport. It needs a device. I also don't know how the carbosilicate amorph should know where to send V and O-Chul.

Another con of the carbosilicate amorph in my eyes is the size. A medium sized amorph is perfectly normal, and I don't know why Oona should expect it to grow larger. Yet setting a minimum size for the FBS failed in the recent vote, so it still fulfills the criteria.

[Squire Doodad]

So there are other places where this happens, my mistake. But no, it doesn't make sense for MitD to have been using magic all this time, if the "tell" for his magic in the Escape was his eyes glowing. As far as I can recall, there's no other scene where his eyes glow in response to an action he makes. My point is that magic in OotS relies on specific "tells" that indicate someone is using magic or not. If MitD was using magic in other scenes, I would expect the "tell" to be the same, or at least similarly explicit, to how it manifests in the Escape.

Yeah, it seems unlikely that MitD has been using magic at any other point.


It's true that MitD hasn't been aware of the extent of his abilities, but I'm not convinced by this interpretation. If it was specifically the MitD's magical prowess that motivated Redcloak to rescue him, why didn't Redcloak state anything to that effect? Why would no one in this thread think of that, if it was actually in the text of the comic itself? Granted I haven't read SoD, so I can't really comment on anything with specifity here, but I would think that a creature that depends upon spellcasting for their power wouldn't hide it.

I mean it is possible that the MitD's species's most powerful abilities are magical, but they can't be anything that is a result of having Cleric levels and probably not anything from a spell list that has Animate Undead as RC would ask him why he doesn't level up as a [Class] to learn Animate Dead. It is possible that RC went with Cleric instead of anything else because he was more certain of it, but that's still unlikely. Anything that inherently knows or can easily know Animate Dead without leveling up in a class should be out of the picture, or at least have a serious Con.


Out of curiosity, how do MitD's actions indicate he is stunted or unhealthy? His appetite itself could speak to any number of things, and I could be wrong, but I don't see anywhere in the comic where people wonder if he's ill, or unwell, or malnourished. Oona says in #1037 that he "will grow in time," though, so I might be wrong about there not being people who refer to him as a kid and such in the comic.

Aside from it being plausible that MitD wasn't fed much in the circus because he would devour anything they gave him, there's nothing to suggest he is stunted as opposed to a voracious eater. It is possible that he is stunted, but there is very little evidence to suggest as such that isn't far more easily seen as "he eats a lot".


The teraport is somewhat like a science fiction teleport. It needs a device. I also don't know how the carbosilicate amorph should know where to send V and O-Chul.
Ah okay, thanks for clearing that up. I guess if it was teleporting them to "where the Paladins are", that would work.


-snippity-
i know it's a stretch, but why not? :smallsmile:
I mean that sounds interesting, but you are having enough ideas flung around that MitD would either be seen as unguessable or a homebrew.

[Darth Paul]

So I've been lurking around this thread for a while, and there's something I've been wondering about.

(snip)The only time where it seems like he explicitly uses magic is in the Escape scene, which admittedly does break with OotS' spellcasting rules; but it's the only time in the comic that this is the case, possibly to further complicate the mystery of who MitD "really is." So much of the MitD's capacities are described as physical actions (i.e. "swallow him whole," "stomp the ground," "pull on this rope," etc.) that I don't think it makes much sense to say that it's the product of Telekinesis, Earthquake, and so on.

There's another thing that bugs me about this that involves Redcloak's plan regarding the ritual. We know for certain that Redcloak needs Xykon for the ritual because it demands a powerful arcane spellcaster as well as a divine one. Most monsters with spellcasting, as I understand it, are arcane spellcasters, and the ones powerful enough to explain the Escape seem powerful enough to complete the arcane component of the ritual. This creates the following plot-related predicament: why would Redcloak betray his own brother for Xykon, if the MitD has the capacity to handle the arcane spellcasting himself? I don't think that the answer to that can be Redcloak turning around and saying, "oh whoops, MitD is powerful monster and a sorcerer, I was wrong about him after all!" I personally think this disqualifies candidates with extensive spellcasting more than anything, since it forms a real plot hole, but maybe that's just me.

These are both good points, to me. And spellcasting is different from SLA or psionics, which Redcloak was still not even sure existed in the world, so those are both possibilities for the Escape scene.

[DeathChallenged]

I think an upper limit to size shouldn't be a consideration for FBS. Reason being that we know that MITD is smaller than he should be. There are animals in real life that start off tiny and end up large, like an aligator or croc. There is at least one case where an aligator was confined in a small area for most of it's life and stayed a small size and shows juvinille colourations despite it's age. I think it's possible MitD may have had a similar issue, being confined in a box and not able to grow any larger.

(If interested it's Rex the aligator from Snake discovery)

[Squire Doodad]

I think an upper limit to size shouldn't be a consideration for FBS. Reason being that we know that MITD is smaller than he should be. There are animals in real life that start off tiny and end up large, like an aligator or croc. There is at least one case where an aligator was confined in a small area for most of it's life and stayed a small size and shows juvinille colourations despite it's age. I think it's possible MitD may have had a similar issue, being confined in a box and not able to grow any larger.

(If interested it's Rex the aligator from Snake discovery)

How do I link to a particular post? I made a really good explanation of this earlier on this page but I want to make a single link so I can put a link to an edited version onto my signature.
It's 8 or so posts from the top of this page, very large text with a couple of bold numbers. Read that.
Found it; you're supposed to click on the number on the upper right corner of the post. Read this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23812856&postcount=68).
I'm going to post an edited version fairly soon to put onto my signature. Sound good?

[Throknor]

A vote call within the first two pages??? "... and the votes don't matter" was meant as snarkiness, not a suggestion.

If I had the energy, I'd go through all of the old threads to catalogue all votes and their results. I'd then propose a "No votes on issues decided within two threads without new comic-based information" rule.

Maybe I should have gone with "...and the FBS doesn't matter" so people would stop getting hung up on it so much.

[Squire Doodad]

I mean, I agree that MiTD probably won't grow into a colossal creature but it's also not reasonable to apply the growth time line of real life humans to the situation either. I don't see why "humans don't grow that much from pre-teen to adult" is supposed to rule out MiTD being a member of a Huge species here.

Also, what age range equivalent is the MiTD pinned down as? I don't really know what range "young enough to play with transformers and have tea parties, old enough to be interested in dwarf sex" translates to.

I think it's been assumed (and therefore established as an informal standard) that MitD's mental age is equivalent to a human that is somewhere from 11-14, being either somewhat mature or extremely childish depending on which end of that spectrum, but childish nonetheless.

While it sounds easy to project a child going from one age group to the next being like one size category to the next, you would only see a change in any size category at all from newborn to adult (assuming a species is not specifically on the cusp of a certain size). Most animals have significant changes in growth, but going from near maturity (say, a preteen) to an adult would not usually mean a size category change unless they are already on the border.
Think of it in human terms: while humans go through significant growth spurts around puberty, the growth spurts aren't nearly as big as a size category difference. We might grow over 20% of the original height (from a preteen to a fully grown person), but the change from one size category to the next is double the size. A shift in size that significant is like instead of your 11 year old cousin going from 5'3'' to 6'2'' by the time he is 18, he inexplicably goes from 5'3'' to 9'8''. This just gets worse as you go higher, with going from Large to Colossal being tantamount to that 5'3'' kid growing to 40 feet. (For reference, from Large to Gargantuan would be 20 feet. Still implausible.)
So if MitD is a very big Large now, and the adult size is unknown, he could plausibly turn out to be a moderate Huge with some margin of error. But if MitD is a very small Huge now (or even anything that is not a very big Huge), he cannot turn out to be a Gargantuan when he is an adult based on "normal" animal growth.

A reference that illustrates this visually:
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-HCOp5Un3vpw/VHl1tdGYUaI/AAAAAAAACV0/xChJKt1gk_8/s1600/5e%2Bsize.jpg
MitD is most likely somewhere between the knight and the good-sized ogre. Colossal, which is not shown here, is over double the size of Gargantuan.

Another example of this, courtesy of Grey Wolf

Let me put it like this: MitD is currently, barely, Medium sized, almost tall enough to be Large, but not quite there. His eyes, however, are the size of an ogre's, which is a Large creature. If I show you a creature on the verge of Large, with Large eyes, and I tell you it is not fully grown, what is more plausible, that it is not quite full grown and might have another two feet more height to gain (so about the same growth from a 12 year of to an adult human), or that MitD is 1/8th his full grown size (i.e. the same proportion as an 18 week human fetus to a grown man) and will gain some 50 feet in height before he is full grown?

Grey Wolf

[CriticalFailure]

I still doubt the MiTD’s species growth as depicted in the comic will be based on how much and when humans grow. It’s most likely a mythological creature/d&d monster and it’s in a fantasy webcomic that takes liberties with creature size as it is; given the context Oona’s statement about MiTD being so small and the statement about his father being very large are both more significant pieces of info than “well humans don’t grow like that”

[Squire Doodad]

I still doubt the MiTD’s species growth as depicted in the comic will be based on how much and when humans grow. It’s most likely a mythological creature/d&d monster and it’s in a fantasy webcomic that takes liberties with creature size as it is; given the context Oona’s statement about MiTD being so small and the statement about his father being very large are both more significant pieces of info than “well humans don’t grow like that”

The point is that few animals that aren't incredibly small do most of their growth on the way to maturity as opposed to shortly after birth. If MitD was a newborn at the beginning of the comic, then he could become something quite big by the end! But still, I don't see him growing more than a fraction of his current size and as I have said a change in category requires the size to double.
Also, if Oona doesn't actually know what he is (possibly because she misinterpreted it, or saw him shapeshifted instead of what he is if MitD is a Protean), then for all we know he is going to grow a small amount more then stop. If you are going with the "mindwiped Outsider" idea, then he could be fully grown and just a dwarf of his species. And if he was raised by a gargantuan monster that is a different species, then while that would undermine the validity of some clues it would mean that he could just not grow that big.

Also, the vast majority of mythological creatures were loosely based on or were misinterpretations of real animals, meaning they would have growth rates reminiscent of real animals. It would probably be far greater, but still a far cry from doubling in size unless it is a creature specifically known for doing that (like a little innocent red dog that grows and grows and becomes a humongous monster in a few weeks).

[CriticalFailure]

The MiTD is more likely to grow at the speed of the plot/artistic convenience than at the speed of real life human species.

And what would be the point of Oona saying he’ll grow a lot and that how father was much larger if they just meant a 10% size increase?

[Squire Doodad]

And what would be the point of Oona saying he’ll grow a lot and that how father was much larger if they just meant a 10% size increase?

That's my issue with the idea that MitD was raised by a different creature. Incidentally it's more likely that he doesn't actually know how big his species is and saw his father as being vastly larger because he was young at the time.

...I should probably learn to not bring up secondary arguments I don't agree with to point out that I know they are there.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The MiTD is more likely to grow at the speed of the plot/artistic convenience than at the speed of real life human species.

And what would be the point of Oona saying he’ll grow a lot and that how father was much larger if they just meant a 10% size increase?

"The point" would be to indicate that MitD's species is one category larger than MitD. Not that size doesn't matter.

You are dismissive of "10% increase", but I get the feeling you don't understand just how absurd it is for anything to grow more than 50%. Whether or not MitD follows human growth patterns or not, humans are well understood so they serve as a reference point. Do you know how old you were when you were half your current size? 3. Human beings double their size between the age of 3 and adulthood. That's how brutal a doubling of size is.

Meanwhile, I think of a ten year old pre-teen and look at their parent, and can think "his dad is much larger than he is", where it literally just means "his dad is maybe 20-40% larger"

So yes, I dislike this idea that "his dad is much larger" can possibly mean "his dad is three, four or five categories larger" because that requires an absurd growth spurt. Especially, when you consider that strength requirements that carries with it, something I see no-one addressing in the "lets just ignore size categories" side of things.

Grey Wolf

[CriticalFailure]

I’m not saying that MITD’s species is 5 size categories larger in saying that it’s likely a huge species and huge shouldn’t be considered a con.

[Mightymosy]

For me, the more important question would still be: is any creature fitting perfectly except for being two size categories too big?

So far I just don't see it.


I could see mythical/magical creatures have absurd growth spurts, but as of yet I just haven't noticed a creature that would fit all other parameters I consider important for my guess (for the Ha Naga, for example, size and the required Strength penalty, are lesser cons to me than the described environment and that they are high level spellcasters with a huge list of spells - I just don't see this being much in line with the narrative so far).

So, rather than arguing about the use of a size restriction, I'd much rather look for other monsters, and THEN discuss whether their size is a problem.


@Crusher: please remove the Amorph from my list. I thought the Teraport was intrinsic to the creature. I don't see MitD pulling out an electronic device to teleport someone else.....so I guess it is not an Amorph after some consideration.

[Aveline]

Isn't it true that the MitD must be a size-reduced example of his kind, based on his comment about how big his dad was? Since if we decide that that's a red herring, we could say that some arbitrary other clue is a red herring instead and out-gotcha the red herring possibility.

[Squire Doodad]

I could see mythical/magical creatures have absurd growth spurts, but as of yet I just haven't noticed a creature that would fit all other parameters I consider important for my guess (for the Ha Naga, for example, size and the required Strength penalty, are lesser cons to me than the described environment and that they are high level spellcasters with a huge list of spells - I just don't see this being much in line with the narrative so far).

So, rather than arguing about the use of a size restriction, I'd much rather look for other monsters, and THEN discuss whether their size is a problem.

@Crusher: please remove the Amorph from my list. I thought the Teraport was intrinsic to the creature. I don't see MitD pulling out an electronic device to teleport someone else.....so I guess it is not an Amorph after some consideration.


Isn't it true that the MitD must be a size-reduced example of his kind, based on his comment about how big his dad was? Since if we decide that that's a red herring, we could say that some arbitrary other clue is a red herring instead and out-gotcha the red herring possibility.

I can see them having ridiculous growth spurts, but in the level of 50-60% growth as opposed to doubling in size. MitD is smaller than the fully grown version of his kind, but that only makes the low end of Huge perfectly viable while anything above Huge is improbable.

You have any suggestions for monsters? I'd rather not do a mythological one because that lends itself to arguments over interpretations, but I did bring up the Tarasque. That one is pretty clear cut though, there's little argument to be made aside from "can it hurl someone through a wall if it can sink a boat with its own power" and "is there some archaic text that suggests it could teleport or bestow a wish?".
There might be a size debate, but if an ox can fit into the box I don't see why a young Tarasque couldn't.
So...next candidate please.

[Joerg]

I guess if it was teleporting them to "where the Paladins are", that would work.

Yeah, but not with the teraport. There's no AI behind it that can understand such a wish and moreover knows where the paladins are. I imagine you need some kind of coordinates.

Well, the amorph could use a communication device to get in touch with one of Schlock Mercenary's uber Als which could then teraport the guys, but postulating their existence in the OotS world is really too much for me.

[Squire Doodad]

Yeah, but not with the teraport. There's no AI behind it that can understand such a wish and moreover knows where the paladins are. I imagine you need some kind of coordinates.

Well, the amorph could use a communication device to get in touch with one of Schlock Mercenary's uber Als which could then teraport the guys, but postulating their existence in the OotS world is really too much for me.

What if it is an Amorph with the tech implanted into it at birth, giving it a more limited and emotion driven but still functional version of teleportation? Or is that too much to still be guessable? It's just a single modification, and one that basically amounts to integrating a creature's ability into themselves as opposed to technology, which is fairly common when transferring robotic entities into fantasy settings - they tend to become magically powered golems that just so happen to look like robots.

[LadyEowyn]

"The point" would be to indicate that MitD's species is one category larger than MitD. Not that size doesn't matter.

You are dismissive of "10% increase", but I get the feeling you don't understand just how absurd it is for anything to grow more than 50%. Whether or not MitD follows human growth patterns or not, humans are well understood so they serve as a reference point. Do you know how old you were when you were half your current size? 3. Human beings double their size between the age of 3 and adulthood. That's how brutal a doubling of size is.
Maybe think of something non-human. Leatherback sea turtles are maybe 5 inches long when they hatch, and grow to up to 9 feet. That’s a 20X - not 2X - increase in size.

[Rob Redblade]

I have a feeling the creature HAS to be D&D related or, at the very least, be in the public domain. Using a intellectual property of another person/company would mean that to solve the guessing game, we would have to read EVERYTHING ever published. I find this idea preposterous, not to mention the copyright/trademark quagmire. The amount of published stuff in D&D is already astonishing.

[Squire Doodad]

I have a feeling the creature HAS to be D&D related or, at the very least, be in the public domain. Using a intellectual property of another person/company would mean that to solve the guessing game, we would have to read EVERYTHING ever published. I find this idea preposterous, not to mention the copyright/trademark quagmire. The amount of published stuff in D&D is already astonishing.
I think one of the sections on the first page covers that, with the Amorph being an exception because the two authors here are friends. There's one or two other exceptions. Outside of that, anything that is D&D related or Public Domain (including most mythological entities) is fair game.


Maybe think of something non-human. Leatherback sea turtles are maybe 5 inches long when they hatch, and grow to up to 9 feet. That’s a 20X - not 2X - increase in size.

EDIT: Didn't follow the line of communication, sorry.
Still, even if a turtle increases in size twenty-fold by adulthood, how much of that occurs as it is nearing adulthood? The phrasing gets kind of complicated with non-human examples, but if most of the growth occurs in the transition into a juvenile, and then it grows a little larger, then that is roughly in line with the idea suggested. Just taking two endpoints and saying "the growth from here to here is much bigger than yours" is a valid argument, but in this case its a matter of growth over a specific period of development.

I'm disregarding the idea of a creature that reaches maturity and then continues to grow, albeit very slowly, for the sake of the argument. That said, it is plausible that MitD is from a species that is gargantuan or even colossal as long as it is one that keeps on growing and remains fertile for all of its lifespan. In such a case, his father would be hundreds if not thousands of years old, possibly almost as old as the world. I can't think of many D&D monsters that could do that though.

[CriticalFailure]

based on "normal" animal growth.

Still confused why “normal animal growth” is being assumed

[Peelee]

Maybe think of something non-human. Leatherback sea turtles are maybe 5 inches long when they hatch, and grow to up to 9 feet. That’s a 20X - not 2X - increase in size.

Size categories double the size for each consecutive category. It's not multiplicative growth, it's exponential growth. The numbers get really big really fast.

[Squire Doodad]

Still confused why “normal animal growth” is being assumed

Even if you want it to be greater than average, you can't just jump to doubling its size during the transition to adulthood without evidence that it does so to back it up.

[Sir_Norbert]

Size categories double the size for each consecutive category. It's not multiplicative growth, it's exponential growth. The numbers get really big really fast.

That's not a refutation of Eowyn's point. A 20x increase, like the turtles cited, would be a leap of four size categories.

(Squire Doodad already made a better refutation, namely that it's unfair to look at the baby/adult ratio when MitD is clearly not a baby. But hey, I'm a maths teacher, I feel the need to step in when people are misunderstanding mathematical arguments :P )

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Maybe think of something non-human. Leatherback sea turtles are maybe 5 inches long when they hatch, and grow to up to 9 feet. That’s a 20X - not 2X - increase in size.

I love how the answer to "humans double in size from age three to adulthood" is somehow "countered" (and I use that word quite wrongly) with "baby to adult". You might as well tell me that a 20 week development human fetus to adult also increases 20x. MitD is not a baby, and he's not a new born, and he is not a fetus. How much does this sea turtle grow from late childhood to adulthood?

Grey Wolf

[Rob Redblade]

I love how the answer to "humans double in size from age three to adulthood" is somehow "countered" (and I use that word quite wrongly) with "baby to adult". You might as well tell me that a 20 week development human fetus to adult also increases 20x. MitD is not a baby, and he's not a new born, and he is not a fetus. How much does this sea turtle grow from late childhood to adulthood?

Grey Wolf

I don't like all those references to "child" either. A hatchling is not the same as a 3 year old. Take any juvenile/adolescent of any species and I'd bet the difference in size to their adult version isn't as stark as people would like MitD to be to his dad.

Even that, MitD doesn't seem to be the equivalent maturity level of a 3 year old. Is there any other indication of his "immaturity" other than the tea set and the "no girls club"?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't like all those references to "child" either. A hatchling is not the same as a 3 year old. Take any juvenile/adolescent of any species and I'd bet the difference in size to their adult version isn't as stark as people would like MitD to be to his dad.

Even that, MitD doesn't seem to be the equivalent maturity level of a 3 year old. Is there any other indication of his "immaturity" other than the tea set and the "no girls club"?

I said 3 year old because I was trying to illustrate what it takes for a human to double in size; I was not, nor have I ever, suggested MitD is a three year old. Only that "50% growth" (i.e. half a size category) is sufficient to describe an adult as "much bigger" than a child. Although, for the record, since this is MitD speaking from his memories of his dad, it could very well be he is recalling his dad's size form the time when he was the equivalent size-wise of a three-year-old human.

The no-girls club suggests he is still in the "girls are icky" phase, but his interests in dwarven sex suggests he is not that far from puberty. The tea party is a bit harder to pin down, not being all that familiar with how the US sees that trope. I had the closest equivalent in my own culture to that all the way into late puberty, but it slowly morphed from "pretend food" to "actual food" to "pizza and D&D", so it's hard for me to measure when I switched from pretend to real.

Grey Wolf

[Rob Redblade]

I said 3 year old because I was trying to illustrate what it takes for a human to double in size; I was not, nor have I ever, suggested MitD is a three year old. Only that "50% growth (i.e. half a size category) is sufficient to describe an adult as "much bigger" than a child. Although, for the record, since this is MitD speaking from his memories of his dad, it could very well be he is recalling his dad's size form the time when he was the equivalent size-wise of a three-year-old human.

I got your comparison was to demonstrate the size and not the maturity level. The relativity of size that you mention is quite a point. As example, a few years ago former neighbours came to visit my parents' house and it happened that I was present. Mrs So-and-so was TINY. I mean, she was about the same size as my mom but back when I was 5 or 6, she was towering me and I saw her so much more intimidating than my own mother.


The no-girls club suggests he is still in the "girls are icky" phase, but his interests in dwarven sex suggests he is not that far from puberty. The tea party is a bit harder to pin down, not being all that familiar with how the US sees that trope. I had the closest equivalent in my own culture to that all the way into late puberty, but it slowly morphed from "pretend food" to "actual food" to "pizza and D&D", so it's hard for me to measure when I switched from pretend to real.

Grey Wolf

Well, tea is more a thing in the UK, anyway. I'm not American either (well, I am, but in the literal sense that I'm from North America) but from movies and stuff I would say it's something that passes away when one starts notice the opposite sex. It's almost always depicted as a "little girl" game.

[Squire Doodad]

I got your comparison was to demonstrate the size and not the maturity level. The relativity of size that you mention is quite a point. As example, a few years ago former neighbours came to visit my parents' house and it happened that I was present. Mrs So-and-so was TINY. I mean, she was about the same size as my mom but back when I was 5 or 6, she was towering me and I saw her so much more intimidating than my own mother.


Well, tea is more a thing in the UK, anyway. I'm not American either (well, I am, but in the literal sense that I'm from North America) but from movies and stuff I would say it's something that passes away when one starts notice the opposite sex. It's almost always depicted as a "little girl" game.

The 10 or so age is appropriate if you ask me. He's beginning to care about things outside of what happens over the next few days, but only just.
I agree that MitD's dad is bigger than he is, just not necessarily as much as he thinks. It's been decades since MitD last saw his dad, right? He was presumably much, much smaller then (assuming he's not a GENERICFILLERION that takes 600 years to reach maturity, in which case he was probably not much smaller) and even if he wasn't, MitD probably would have fuzzier memories by now allowing for warping and inaccuracies. Though he seems to recite all of his backstory to O-Chul, so who knows.
Hey, maybe "hyper accurate memory" is the species trait we should be looking for after all :smallwink:

[Rob Redblade]

Hey, maybe "hyper accurate memory" is the species trait we should be looking for after all :smallwink:

This ties back to my first post in the previous thread, re: clues we must ignore for now because we can't quantify them. Monster-san's deep analysis of pan-goblin politics was something. What was it? I have no idea. Maybe it means something akin to have sense motive: infinite or mind-reading or something else entirely. That and recognizing half a ritual by a single glance.

[Doug Lampert]

But I haven't read that comic, and Wikipedia doesn't help much in this regard, and I would like to understand how this teraport stuff works.
Maybe it doesn't fit so well after all?
For me, the most important thing is that MitD can teleport others without touching them and without going with them.
Can teraports be used that way?

Teraports can be done without the gear moving or touching either end although they typically take the gadget with the thing teraporting, but this is mostly because you don't want to leave your ride behind and the gear is relatively cheap.

Teraport gear could easily fit inside an amorph. I'm mildly surprised that we've never had a scene where Schlock has one internal, but most of the time when he'd want to teraport on his own he's been in a Teraport Area Denial field (nearly universal now anyplace with any security at all in his universe).

Just who is maintaining the TAD field over the OotS universe? It would work.

Gear can be designed to allow Schlock to directly interface with the gear, thus he or another amorph could be given an internal teraport that he controls via thought and that can move things other than Schlock.

Such gear would be more advanced than was available in Schlock Mercenary when the Escape scene happened, but Howard Tayler might well have been asked by Rich if such gear was possible and been told yes.

The big problem, is that a teraport does require that you know where you want to go. That might be solvable, but spell-like wish is simply so much simpler as an explanation.

[Squire Doodad]

Teraports can be done without the gear moving or touching either end although they typically take the gadget with the thing teraporting, but this is mostly because you don't want to leave your ride behind and the gear is relatively cheap.

Teraport gear could easily fit inside an amorph. I'm mildly surprised that we've never had a scene where Schlock has one internal, but most of the time when he'd want to teraport on his own he's been in a Teraport Area Denial field (nearly universal now anyplace with any security at all in his universe).

Just who is maintaining the TAD field over the OotS universe? It would work.

Gear can be designed to allow Schlock to directly interface with the gear, thus he or another amorph could be given an internal teraport that he controls via thought and that can move things other than Schlock.

Such gear would be more advanced than was available in Schlock Mercenary when the Escape scene happened, but Howard Tayler might well have been asked by Rich if such gear was possible and been told yes.

The big problem, is that a teraport does require that you know where you want to go. That might be solvable, but spell-like wish is simply so much simpler as an explanation.

You lost me at "albuquerque". I don't know anything about Schlock Mercenary, is it good?

[Doug Lampert]

I love how the answer to "humans double in size from age three to adulthood" is somehow "countered" (and I use that word quite wrongly) with "baby to adult". You might as well tell me that a 20 week development human fetus to adult also increases 20x. MitD is not a baby, and he's not a new born, and he is not a fetus. How much does this sea turtle grow from late childhood to adulthood?

Grey Wolf

We have a grand total of TWO classes of species in D&D land where we know the growth pattern.

A juvenile (explicitly pre-adolescent) giant grows two size categories to reach adulthood.
Dragon juveniles vary, but can all grow 2-3 size categories from juvenile to great wyrm.

Now, in both cases, the scaling back of strength and other capabilities is substantial. But in D&D land the available precedent is that you can grow at least 2 additional size categories from a combat capable pre-adolescent juvenile.

Admittedly, the sample size is highly biased, because all the species that don't become combat capable till full sized or that reach their normal size as juveniles have no need to have juvenile forms described in game mechanical terms and thus the EXISTENCE of a juvenile description implies that juveniles are both much smaller and yet combat capable. So I'd not draw any real conclusions from the "evidence" above.

[Peelee]

You lost me at "albuquerque".

Better call Saul, then.

[Doug Lampert]

You lost me at "albuquerque". I don't know anything about Schlock Mercenary, is it good?

I think so, or I'd not have read enough of it to have an opinion about the practicality of an amorph having an internal teraport.

If I lost you at Albuquerque then the TLDR version is that a teraport is a gadget, but it can be entirely internal to an amorph, controlled by thought, and perform as shown if you are willing to handwave that the amorph needs to know where it wants to send someone for this to work.

Also, there's no reason teraporting someone should be particularly tiring. You're using a hypothetical thought controlled gadget, not a limited use D&D power.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think so, or I'd not have read enough of it to have an opinion about the practicality of an amorph having an internal teraport.

If I lost you at Albuquerque then the TLDR version is that a teraport is a gadget, but it can be entirely internal to an amorph, controlled by thought, and perform as shown if you are willing to handwave that the amorph needs to know where it wants to send someone for this to work.

Also, there's no reason teraporting someone should be particularly tiring. You're using a hypothetical thought controlled gadget, not a limited use D&D power.

The early teraports, which were a handheld doodad that a carbosilicate amorph could conceivably learn to interface with drew energy from their environment randomly - if it drew from the carb amorph, that'd translate into an amoprh that has lost a small but not insubstantial amount of matter, which makes them sluggish, tired and hungry.

Grey Wolf

[Squire Doodad]

Better call Saul, then.
I was headed for Magrathea, but I gave him a call anyways. Told him to meet me at that fancy restaurant. You know, the one way over on 8.8×10^23th Street? Great place, they don't do burgers very well but the performances are amazing.

I think so, or I'd not have read enough of it to have an opinion about the practicality of an amorph having an internal teraport.

If I lost you at Albuquerque then the TLDR version is that a teraport is a gadget, but it can be entirely internal to an amorph, controlled by thought, and perform as shown if you are willing to handwave that the amorph needs to know where it wants to send someone for this to work.

Also, there's no reason teraporting someone should be particularly tiring. You're using a hypothetical thought controlled gadget, not a limited use D&D power.

I suppose it not being tiring is a minor boon. If MitD had a slightly modified version (or maybe Dimensional Anchor messed with it) then maybe it worked and while MitD didn't go with due to DA, but the machinery did (but was smashed or otherwise teleported incorrectly) then I guess that would work. Still kinda iffy for a few other reasons, but a valid enough argument.


The early teraports, which were a handheld doodad that a carbosilicate amorph could conceivably learn to interface with drew energy from their environment randomly - if it drew from the carb amorph, that'd translate into an amoprh that has lost a small but not insubstantial amount of matter, which makes them sluggish, tired and hungry.

Grey Wolf

There we go. Carb Amorph puns aside, that makes sense at face value and explains a few other things. Coordinates is still an issue, but not a particularly big one. Sounds like a great way to drop a couple pounds too!

[Rob Redblade]

I was headed for Magrathea, but I gave him a call anyways. Told him to meet me at that fancy restaurant. You know, the one way over on 8.8×10^23th Street? Great place, they don't do burgers very well but the performances are amazing.

Sounds interesting, do I need a prior reservation?

[Darth Paul]

The early teraports, which were a handheld doodad that a carbosilicate amorph could conceivably learn to interface with drew energy from their environment randomly - if it drew from the carb amorph, that'd translate into an amoprh that has lost a small but not insubstantial amount of matter, which makes them sluggish, tired and hungry.

Grey Wolf

Which would fit in (sluggish and tired) with the post-Escape sleeping. Interesting.

[Quebbster]

Regarding the watch dwarves have sex (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0082.html) bit, wouldn't strip 82 be Before the MitD's identity was decided? If so, it may be one of those things that don't really support the chosen identity but don't contradict it either.

[Edreyn]

Can he be a creature from a children folklore and fairy tales?

I tried to use Akinator to try if it finds out who MitD can be. Of course, the first result was Monster in the Dark, so I chose this as "wrong" answer, and kept on guessing.
So, after about 70 questions, Akinator twice gave the "Boogeyman" answer. At this stage, I stopped, and moved to Wikipedia.
And, I found out about creature named "Coco".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coco_(folklore)

I will copy what I find most relevant:

The Coco is a male being while Coca is the female version of the mythical monster, although it is not possible to distinguish one from the other as both are the representation of the same being.

This means that there is more then creature. Potentially, they can even have children.


It is not the way the Coco looks but what it does that scares most. It is a child eater and a kidnapper

Remember MitD compaining, that Xykon forces him to eat children? And also Xykon tells to devour Redcloak is he misbehaves.


it may immediately devour the child, leaving no trace, or it may spirit the child away to a place of no return

Can be an explanation to teleport scene. Which is one of most hard.


There is no general description of the cucuy, as far as facial or body descriptions, but it is stated that this shapeshifting being is extremely horrible to look at. The coco is variously described as a shapeless figure, sometimes a hairy monster, that hides in closets or under beds and eats children that misbehave when they are told to go to bed

Explains circus scene.


In Catalonia the "Cuca fera de Tortosa" was first documented in 1457. It is a zoomorphic figure, looks like a tortoise with a horned spine, it has dragon claws and a dragon head.[33][34] The legend says she had to dine every night on three cats and three children. The legend of the Coca can be compared to the one of Peluda or Tarasque.

Can explain constant appetite and strength.


As for other aspects:
1) I didn't find information if they can talk or not.
2) Have Spanish and\or Carribean origin. MitD was found in the jungle, which fits the scene. Though, yes, hunter were surprised to see him. Maybe because those species are from continental Spain climate, and not Carribean?
3) Expected to be VERY evil
4) If you follow the link and see the photos, you can see that it can be almost any size - from human shaped, to much larger.

[Squire Doodad]

snip

Interesting! Yes it can be mythological creature, the Tarasque was sent through a short time ago.
Is there evidence to suggests that the Coco is particularly strong, and that it is capable of withstanding major blows? The Tower Scene is still relevant after all.

[Kish]

Dragon juveniles vary, but can all grow 2-3 size categories from juvenile to great wyrm.
I don't think that's the proper analogy. Growing from juvenile to adult is the proper analogy for "creature smaller than listed racial size becomes listed racial size." And that's always one size category, for any dragon.

[Squire Doodad]

I don't think that's the proper analogy. Growing from juvenile to adult is the proper analogy for "creature smaller than listed racial size becomes listed racial size." And that's always one size category, for any dragon.

Dragon would fall into the "continues to grow even after it reaches maturity, if slowly" category, unless I'm missing something about their biology.

The Akinator reminded me of Akantor, which reminded me that Monster Hunter has a lot of monsters that would make GREAT candidates if they are the explicitly elder members of their species ones, which reminded me that none of them can teleport, which reminded me that they aren't old enough.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think Kish’s second proposal is interesting and worth voting on, but I agree that having another vote again so soon might not be terribly productive. Therefore, I’ll hold off on seconding it until at least some time has passed.

I’m hoping that, with the sixth book appearing to reach a close soon enough, we’ll see the MitD soon (in strip terms if not real time). I think at this point we’re not likely to see Team Evil again this book, nor at the beginning of the next, but I’m holding out hope for “soon”. :smalltongue:

[Squire Doodad]

I think Kish’s second proposal is interesting and worth voting on, but I agree that having another vote again so soon might not be terribly productive. Therefore, I’ll hold off on seconding it until at least some time has passed.

I’m hoping that, with the sixth book appearing to reach a close soon enough, we’ll see the MitD soon (in strip terms if not real time). I think at this point we’re not likely to see Team Evil again this book, nor at the beginning of the next, but I’m holding out hope for “soon”. :smalltongue:

50/50 of the end of the text, 90/10 of seeing them at the beginning of the next, even if it is just to confirm that while they have not found the gate, they have indeed cleared most of the areas.

[Rob Redblade]

50/50 of the end of the text, 90/10 of seeing them at the beginning of the next, even if it is just to confirm that while they have not found the gate, they have indeed cleared most of the areas.

I don't want to go into wild speculation, but I kinda hope that "most of the areas" means "all the doors are marked, but we haven't found it?!?". I'd like for MitD's plan to work.

[Doug Lampert]

I don't think that's the proper analogy. Growing from juvenile to adult is the proper analogy for "creature smaller than listed racial size becomes listed racial size." And that's always one size category, for any dragon.

Why is adult the right larger size? Dragons remain fertile up to and including great wyrms. And for giants (where we have a rule rather than a bunch of examples), it's always 2 categories.

[CriticalFailure]

Regarding the watch dwarves have sex (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0082.html) bit, wouldn't strip 82 be Before the MitD's identity was decided? If so, it may be one of those things that don't really support the chosen identity but don't contradict it either.

Yeah I think so, and I think MiTD only began to be truly *childish* rather than just oblivious etc was around when it was decided.

The way MiTD is portrayed he doesn’t seem like he’s young enough to make his behavior in that scene weird. Or at least weirder than it already was. Redcloak deciding to join him, on the other hand...

[Elves]

For MitD, adult being Huge is pushing it: not quite bad enough to knock it out of the FBS category, but still a con.


So small though! But will grow in time

On the basis of this quote it is totally reasonable to expect that the MITD is 1 size category smaller than the adult creature.

It would actually be visually un-dramatic if it stayed the same size as an adult, so being huge should be a pro if anything. And if we're talking about whether it's a child vs a teen, it's clearly a young child -- "Rainbow Brite, Mr Stiffly" -- for most of the comic and would only now be verging on a kind of moral adolescence that has no necessary correspondence to physical adolescence -- if it even shares a human growth pattern instead of the common trope of monsters having linear growth over time.

Also remember that the size chart you link is biased by assuming a vertical human body plan; a more horizontal body plan would vary much less in mass per extra square of groundspace.

Huge should be removed as a con and grey linnorm should be re-introduced to the list. Colossal could perhaps be pushing it, but I think by cartoon visual logic even Gargantuan would be easily acceptable.

[CriticalFailure]

On the basis of this quote it is totally reasonable to expect that the MITD is 1 size category smaller than the adult creature.

It would actually be visually un-dramatic if it stayed the same size as an adult, so being huge should be a pro if anything. And if we're talking about whether it's a child vs a teen, it's clearly a young child -- "Rainbow Brite, Mr Stiffly" -- for most of the comic and would only now be verging on a kind of moral adolescence that has no necessary correspondence to physical adolescence -- if it even shares a human growth pattern instead of the common trope of monsters having linear growth over time.

Also remember that the size chart you link is biased by assuming a vertical human body plan; a more horizontal body plan would vary much less in mass per extra square of groundspace.

Agree, the fact that MiTD is significantly smaller than adults if his species has definitely been built up, and cartoon visual logic + artistic lisence definitely are more important than human growth patterns here.

In terms of guesses I’m withyou here:

[/QUOTE] Huge should be removed as a con and grey linnorm should be re-introduced to the list. Colossal could perhaps be pushing it, but I think by cartoon visual logic even Gargantuan would be easily acceptable.[/QUOTE]

[Kish]

Why is adult the right larger size? Dragons remain fertile up to and including great wyrms. And for giants (where we have a rule rather than a bunch of examples), it's always 2 categories.
To be clear, I'm saying adult is the right larger size for the species' default size. I'm not saying anything about the "my father was bigger" line, which I think generally has way too much weight put on it here.

[Aspheric]

Also remember that the size chart you link is biased by assuming a vertical human body plan; a more horizontal body plan would vary much less in mass per extra square of groundspace.

Huge should be removed as a con and grey linnorm should be re-introduced to the list. Colossal could perhaps be pushing it, but I think by cartoon visual logic even Gargantuan would be easily acceptable.

I disagree with this, because MitD is still not that wide for what the umbrella suggests. If he was a creature that grows more horizontally than vertically, as you suggest, that would still create a potentially greater problem for him to stay under the umbrella; since it would be harder for him to stay under the (relatively small) shadowy area that the umbrella provides.

I think early adolescence is a fair age category to place MitD in, but I'd caution against positing anything more concrete when our only judge of MitD's age seems to be his mental and emotional maturity. Elan is, still, just as immature as MitD acts, but as far as I know Elan is an adult human, so I'm not sure MitD's naivete makes good evidence for judging his age, given how many silly, immature adults appear in the comic.

As for judging in-comic sizes, does anyone know what kind of demon is summoned by Qarr on #584? It looks large enough to be Gargantuan, I'd say, but if we knew what its size is on its statblock, that could prove useful in gauging size for other creatures as far as their in-comic representation is concerned...

[halfeye]

The dark worm in the current (1160, 1159, 1158) comics is being said to be a Nightcrawler, but those are by the text people have found 7 ft in diameter and 100 ft long, the monster in the comics is big, but it's not that big, it's at most 25-35 ft long and about 4ft around, about the same height as the dwarf vampires.

I do like this monster as an alternate for the MitD, because it behaves a lot like him, I'm not sure whether it could coil up under the umbrella, I'd like to see it reveal eyes, that would make it a much better candidate.

[Elves]

I disagree with this, because MitD is still not that wide for what the umbrella suggests (+ low medium eye level).

Yeah, I guess you're right it is medium. I'll fix that statement then: Large isn't a con and Colossal may be pushing it. Huge and Gargantuan I still don't see any reason to object to. A complaint that compares its growth to human growth patterns is completely speculative and not enough to keep something off the list.


As for judging in-comic sizes, does anyone know what kind of demon is summoned by Qarr on #584? It looks large enough to be Gargantuan

Colossal or colossal+. (See Lien next to its foot here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0586.html)).

[Ruck]

On the basis of this quote it is totally reasonable to expect that the MITD is 1 size category smaller than the adult creature.

...

Huge should be removed as a con and grey linnorm should be re-introduced to the list. Colossal could perhaps be pushing it, but I think by cartoon visual logic even Gargantuan would be easily acceptable.

I think the people supporting Huge as a con are saying MitD is Medium now, and they expect it to grow to Large.


As for judging in-comic sizes, does anyone know what kind of demon is summoned by Qarr on #584? It looks large enough to be Gargantuan, I'd say, but if we knew what its size is on its statblock, that could prove useful in gauging size for other creatures as far as their in-comic representation is concerned...

I've seen it referred to a lot as a Pit Fiend, so I assumed that's what it was, but they are listed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm) as Large and described as "about 12 feet tall and 800 pounds." Whatever Qarr summoned is... significantly bigger than that.

[CriticalFailure]

MiTD could currently be large though

[3Power]

I've seen it referred to a lot as a Pit Fiend, so I assumed that's what it was, but they are listed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm) as Large and described as "about 12 feet tall and 800 pounds." Whatever Qarr summoned is... significantly bigger than that.

It's a strangely colossal pit fiend that is nevertheless somehow defeated by a level 15ish party. More proof that size is meaningless.

[Aspheric]

Yeah, I guess you're right it is medium. I'll fix that statement then: Colossal is probably too big (unless it's a famous grower like a dragon etc). Huge I still don't see any reason to object to, nor depending on the species Gargantuan. A complaint that compares its growth to human growth patterns is completely speculative and not enough to keep something off the list.

Er, what? I never said what size I thought it was, only that its width still must fit within the umbrella. If I had to guess, the MitD currently can't be any bigger than Large, regardless of what its actual proportions are or however big it may become. I wasn't objecting to Huge, or suggesting Medium, and I'm not sure where you extropolated this from my post, but I'm sorry if I suggested otherwise. (Also, may I request you not include things I didn't write in your quotes? It's a bit disorienting...)


Colossal or colossal+. (See Lien next to its foot here).

I've seen it referred to a lot as a Pit Fiend, so I assumed that's what it was, but they are listed as Large and described as "about 12 feet tall and 800 pounds." Whatever Qarr summoned is... significantly bigger than that.

Strange! Compared to Lien, I'm inclined to agree with Elves as far as the size goes, so maybe it's a different kind of devil/demon/whatever? I don't think size should be thrown completely out the window, even if MitD might be smaller than the usual size of his species.

[Elves]

I think the people supporting Huge as a con are saying MitD is Medium now, and they expect it to grow to Large.

But the main points are the same:

1) Cartoon visual logic trumps pedantic size measurement; eg the giant devil just being discussed
2) Judging his expected growth by comparison to human (or any mammal's) growth patterns is baseless
3) Even if it were in human terms, there's no evidence he's pubertal or adult

So I'll say Large doesn't have to be a con, but there's no evidence for calling Huge and even Garg cons, either.

[Crusher]

So I'll say Large doesn't have to be a con, but there's no evidence for calling Huge and even Garg cons, either.

I’m ok with making Huge no longer a Con, and while I think making Gargantuan or Colossal no longer Cons is too much of a stretch, I am ok with making them acceptable at all which is a significant change.

That having been said, its worth keeping in mind that STR gets scaled down as size reduces. So a Gargantuan creature is going to need to be REALLY strong.

Edit - also, just fyi I’m out of town on my phone and a but busy so I won’t be able to get the voting caught up until this weekend or early next week.

[Doug Lampert]

I’m ok with making Huge no longer a Con, and while I think making Gargantuan or Colossal no longer Cons is too much of a stretch, I am ok with making them acceptable at all which is a significant change.

That having been said, its worth keeping in mind that STR gets scaled down as size reduces. So a Gargantuan creature is going to need to be REALLY strong.

Edit - also, just fyi I’m out of town on my phone and a but busy so I won’t be able to get the voting caught up until this weekend or early next week.

Yep, I don't consider Gargantuan or Huge a con, but for Huge I wand the strength to be 38+, and for Gargantuan I want the strength to be 46+, because strength does scale with size. Yes, there are ways to reduce size that don't reduce strength by a full 8 points, but then 30 is pretty minimal strength already.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

50/50 of the end of the text, 90/10 of seeing them at the beginning of the next, even if it is just to confirm that while they have not found the gate, they have indeed cleared most of the areas.

I think it’s unlikely we see them at the beginning of the next, just because it’s rare for the books to start out with Team Evil and not the Order. I would put more odds on seeing them before this book wraps up, but I kind of feel that The Giant will just want to get this arc finished without also throwing them in. I’m open to convincing otherwise, however!

[Jineon]

Waiting for a Team Evil appearance, we can settle for the little clues we have.

I'm still trying to understand the art of the Escape scene (the glowing eyes). That's not how magic usually works and Laurin's psionics didn't really work that way either.

#1160 has:
- a spell-like ability cast without speaking its name (no eyes, so neither glow nor no-glow);
- Roy's eyes glowing when using his sword's powers;
- Durkon's eyes not glowing when using the returning property of his hammer.

Do the powers of an ancestral weapon come from the bearer rather than the weapon? Would Durkon's eyes not glow because he's using his weapon's magic while Roy's eyes do because the magic he uses comes from him (and is channeled in some way through the weapon)?

The color of the eyes and the glowing when using magic seems somewhat inconsistent to me and I can't really see a pattern there. Maybe I'm just trying too hard and this is just some artistic glitter ink on some magic effects thrown in for awesomeness sake.

[Ruck]

But the main points are the same:

1) Cartoon visual logic trumps pedantic size measurement; eg the giant devil just being discussed
2) Judging his expected growth by comparison to human (or any mammal's) growth patterns is baseless
3) Even if it were in human terms, there's no evidence he's pubertal or adult

So I'll say Large doesn't have to be a con, but there's no evidence for calling Huge and even Garg cons, either.

1) I don't agree with. Rich has specifically said "It is possible to guess" what the MitD is; all his statements on the subject indicate the clues he gives in strip are consistent with the species of the character. I fully disagree that he will provide inaccurate details of MitD's species then handwave those details away with "It's cartoon logic."

2) We can judge his expected growth by how species tend to grow in D&D, though.

3) I'm not sure what your point is, but we're making the best assumptions we can about MitD's relative age and state of maturation based on what we've seen of him in the comic.


50/50 of the end of the text, 90/10 of seeing them at the beginning of the next, even if it is just to confirm that while they have not found the gate, they have indeed cleared most of the areas.


I think it’s unlikely we see them at the beginning of the next, just because it’s rare for the books to start out with Team Evil and not the Order. I would put more odds on seeing them before this book wraps up, but I kind of feel that The Giant will just want to get this arc finished without also throwing them in. I’m open to convincing otherwise, however!

I think we're pretty likely to get one more scene of Team Evil in the denouement, an update on their progress. Wouldn't bet on much more than that, though.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think we're pretty likely to get one more scene of Team Evil in the denouement, an update on their progress. Wouldn't bet on much more than that, though.

I think we already got the "update on progress" scene for Team Evil for this book. I'd expect the next we meet them would be at the start of the next book, to re-center the narrative on them.

But I cannot discard a "breakthrough" moment at the end of this book either sort of like the "Next stop, Azure City" splash page.

Grey Wolf

[Throknor]

Can he be a creature from a children folklore and fairy tales?

I tried to use Akinator to try if it finds out who MitD can be. Of course, the first result was Monster in the Dark, so I chose this as "wrong" answer, and kept on guessing.
So, after about 70 questions, Akinator twice gave the "Boogeyman" answer. At this stage, I stopped, and moved to Wikipedia.
And, I found out about creature named "Coco".

Yes. An interesting find, and I'm sorry you are buried in yet another fruitless* discussion about sizes.


Waiting for a Team Evil appearance, we can settle for the little clues we have.

I'm still trying to understand the art of the Escape scene (the glowing eyes). That's not how magic usually works and Laurin's psionics didn't really work that way either.

#1160 has:
- a spell-like ability cast without speaking its name (no eyes, so neither glow nor no-glow);
- Roy's eyes glowing when using his sword's powers;
- Durkon's eyes not glowing when using the returning property of his hammer.

Do the powers of an ancestral weapon come from the bearer rather than the weapon? Would Durkon's eyes not glow because he's using his weapon's magic while Roy's eyes do because the magic he uses comes from him (and is channeled in some way through the weapon)?

The color of the eyes and the glowing when using magic seems somewhat inconsistent to me and I can't really see a pattern there. Maybe I'm just trying too hard and this is just some artistic glitter ink on some magic effects thrown in for awesomeness sake.

The legacy item description could be taken to describe a power that develops within oneself with the item as a focal point. So I wouldn't think it too much of a stretch to get to 'glowing eyes mean an internal power unlike cleric, wizard or sorcerer spells or psionic abilities or abilities embedded directly within an item'. Not sure if there is an index of 'glowing eye' occurrences; I can't dig deeper until after work. But I like this line of thinking.

* "fruitless" because no one seems to be changing anyone else's mind, the size limit for the FBS was just voted on, and the FBS doesn't really matter in the end. If I get bored tonight I'm going to work on a replacement suggestion I just thought of...

[monomer]

In regards to size vs age, for snakes in particular, the only decent resource I've found is this chart (http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae298/Kelfezond/weight1.jpg)on a Ball (or Royal) Python forum (http://www.theroyalpython.co.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4437). It basically shows the ball python at roughly 180 grams at 4 months of age, growing up to 1800 grams by about 35 months, or a 10x growth from childhood to elderly.

According to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_python#Reproduction), in the wild, male royal pythons reach sexual maturity at 11-18 months, but don't generally start breeding until at about 600g, which according to the above referenced chart is at roughly 11-months old. It also notes that in captivity some Ball Pythons have begun breeding at 300-400g, which is about 8-10 moths of age.

Now, making a bunch of wild assumptions, it seems like they reach puberty at around 8, and adulthood around 11. If we consider the MitD as pre-pubescent, though not a newborn or young child (let's say equivalent to a 6-month old, ~200g ball python), then a 10x change in size isn't out of the realms of possibility. So that accounts for one whole size class, if it were to follow an Earth snake-like growth. Extrapolating that to D&D doesn't really work that great, since monsters can live for thousands of years, and if they never stop growing, similar to snakes or dragons, then they could conceivably reach larger and larger size classes.

For the Ha-Naga, The Epic Handbook fluff is not really indicative of how old they are, or even what their reproductive cycle is like. Serpent Kingdoms, however, notes (page 25) that Ha-Nagas came about from some Dark and Spirit Nagas seeking out ancient Sarrukh rituals and transforming themselves into Ha-Nagas.

Another interesting note from Serpent Kingdoms (page 26) says that Nagas are hermaphroditic and are capable of reproduction through either self-fertilization or copulation with another Naga, depending on the individual's preference. The young are raised by their parent until they are strong enough to survive on their own, at which point the parent leaves for good.

[Ruck]

I think we already got the "update on progress" scene for Team Evil for this book. I'd expect the next we meet them would be at the start of the next book, to re-center the narrative on them.

But I cannot discard a "breakthrough" moment at the end of this book either sort of like the "Next stop, Azure City" splash page.

Grey Wolf

I think that would count. The previous scene of Team Evil we'd seen at that point was of Xykon and Redcloak locating Serini's diary and discovering just how large their hobgoblin army was; the next time we saw them, they'd decided on a course for which Gate to target next and had mobilized the army.

Something similar at the end of this book might be that they actually discover Kraagor's Gate, or discover something else that changes their course of action.

[CriticalFailure]

Hasn’t this current one had the least Team Evil appearances so far? It would make sense for them to come up again.

[Brumagris]

Can he be a creature from a children folklore and fairy tales?

I tried to use Akinator to try if it finds out who MitD can be. Of course, the first result was Monster in the Dark, so I chose this as "wrong" answer, and kept on guessing.
So, after about 70 questions, Akinator twice gave the "Boogeyman" answer. At this stage, I stopped, and moved to Wikipedia.
And, I found out about creature named "Coco".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coco_(folklore)

I will copy what I find most relevant:


This means that there is more then creature. Potentially, they can even have children.



Remember MitD compaining, that Xykon forces him to eat children? And also Xykon tells to devour Redcloak is he misbehaves.



Can be an explanation to teleport scene. Which is one of most hard.



Explains circus scene.


As for other aspects:
1) I didn't find information if they can talk or not.
2) Have Spanish and\or Carribean origin. MitD was found in the jungle, which fits the scene. Though, yes, hunter were surprised to see him. Maybe because those species are from continental Spain climate, and not Carribean?
3) Expected to be VERY evil
4) If you follow the link and see the photos, you can see that it can be almost any size - from human shaped, to much larger.

Spaniard here, and delighted that you are bringing this piece from our childhood to the board :) thank you!


A few notes to complement:
1. el Coco is always hidden in the shadows. Let it be the dark basement, behind heavy furniture or under an odd umbrella... waiting for the misbehaving children
2. el Coco is not supposed to talk... just to come and take you for a late evening snack! Hence quite surprising if it has MITD loquacity

[Joerg]

1) I don't agree with. Rich has specifically said "It is possible to guess" what the MitD is; all his statements on the subject indicate the clues he gives in strip are consistent with the species of the character. I fully disagree that he will provide inaccurate details of MitD's species then handwave those details away with "It's cartoon logic."

But he has now lampshaded several times that the MitD is smaller than its species, so there actually are clues that the size shown in the comic should be disregarded. I am pretty convinced that it's larger than medium, and while I personally don't believe it could grow to be gargantuan (or larger), I wouldn't cry foul either if it turned out to have such a species.

[Edreyn]

A few notes to complement:
1. el Coco is always hidden in the shadows. Let it be the dark basement, behind heavy furniture or under an odd umbrella... waiting for the misbehaving children
2. el Coco is not supposed to talk... just to come and take you for a late evening snack! Hence quite surprising if it has MITD loquacity

1) That's exactly what MitD is doing all the time
2) Exactly - MitD is surprising to everyone who sees him for the first time, but is familiar with his species

So, what remains is to find either a proof or a contradiction to Coco's great strength.
I didn't find it in the wiki. Maybe you, as someone familiar with original stories, can help here?

[Ruck]

But he has now lampshaded several times that the MitD is smaller than its species, so there actually are clues that the size shown in the comic should be disregarded. I am pretty convinced that it's larger than medium, and while I personally don't believe it could grow to be gargantuan (or larger), I wouldn't cry foul either if it turned out to have such a species.

And has been mentioned repeatedly, given the behavior of MitD, he's probably some sort of juvenile/adolescent of his species, as opposed to a small child or newborn, so we should expect the difference between his current size and his full-grown adult size to be roughly proportional to whatever that would be.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think we already got the "update on progress" scene for Team Evil for this book. I'd expect the next we meet them would be at the start of the next book, to re-center the narrative on them.

But I cannot discard a "breakthrough" moment at the end of this book either sort of like the "Next stop, Azure City" splash page.

Grey Wolf

I could definitely see that sort of thing happening. Could be something along the lines of them actually getting to the last Gate, which sets a clock for the Order to get to them.

[LeSwordfish]

I could definitely see that sort of thing happening. Could be something along the lines of them actually getting to the last Gate, which sets a clock for the Order to get to them.

My personal prediction is that O'Chul and Lien won't make it to the end of the book. Just to remind you how serious Team Evil can be - like the death of Tsukiko or the destruction of the resistance.

[Joerg]

And has been mentioned repeatedly, given the behavior of MitD, he's probably some sort of juvenile/adolescent of his species, as opposed to a small child or newborn, so we should expect the difference between his current size and his full-grown adult size to be roughly proportional to whatever that would be.
Which has already been said that it could easily be one size category based on D&D giants, real snakes and the general opinion that imaginary monsters may work differently, so now the discussion is going in circles and I will stop here. Besides, his small size may be because he's a child, but that needs not be the only reason. He could be a dungeonbred child for example, and already two size categories are possible.

Regarding Kish's second suggestion, I am still interested in whether there is actually a creature which would enter the FBS category if we change that.

[Kish]

Regarding Kish's second suggestion, I am still interested in whether there is actually a creature which would enter the FBS category if we change that.
All would involve a judgment call by Grey Wolf, but glancing over the thread-starting posts, cherub, dream larva, and infernal all might.

[CriticalFailure]

My personal prediction is that O'Chul and Lien won't make it to the end of the book. Just to remind you how serious Team Evil can be - like the death of Tsukiko or the destruction of the resistance.


If O-Chul’s in danger I think mitd will save him.

[Darc_Vader]

If O-Chul’s in danger I think mitd will save him.

Either that, or O-Chul’s death will motivate MitD to fully turn against Team Evil

[Squire Doodad]

Either that, or O-Chul’s death will motivate MitD to fully turn against Team Evil


If O-Chul’s in danger I think mitd will save him.

Both of these are plausible courses of actions, I don't think O-Chul or Lien will die though. Either way, if someone so much as slaps O-Chul, MitD will probably make them dead quite soon. Or Soon, if the case may be.
(No significance in that last line, just puns)

[Jaxzan Proditor]

My personal prediction is that O'Chul and Lien won't make it to the end of the book. Just to remind you how serious Team Evil can be - like the death of Tsukiko or the destruction of the resistance.
Interestingly enough, I had considered putting that in as another example, but I feel like that might be a little too dark for OOTS. Not that it’s impossible for major characters to die, of course, but I lean towards it being unlikely.

If O-Chul’s in danger I think mitd will save him.
That, on the other hand, I could see, and it might give this thread some nice material.

[Ruck]

I don't think O-Chul or Lien will die, though I can't rule it out. I have long had my money on MitD's reveal being to save O-Chul's life.

[Crusher]

Spaniard here, and delighted that you are bringing this piece from our childhood to the board :) thank you!


A few notes to complement:
1. el Coco is always hidden in the shadows. Let it be the dark basement, behind heavy furniture or under an odd umbrella... waiting for the misbehaving children
2. el Coco is not supposed to talk... just to come and take you for a late evening snack! Hence quite surprising if it has MITD loquacity

Ok, that link to El Coco is pretty awesome. Coconuts might have been named after it! Really a cool suggestion.

[CriticalFailure]

I don't think O-Chul or Lien will die, though I can't rule it out. I have long had my money on MitD's reveal being to save O-Chul's life.

That’s a cool idea. Also doubt they’ll die.

[Crusher]

Also interesting from the link to El Coco is a link to the Peluda from french folklore, which is also a decent candidate. I need to look into it more (probably next week), but some of its abilities:

- Immense strength (it makes a river split just by stomping)
- Near invulnerability (it is impervious to damage except for cutting off its tail which kills it)
- Weird looking (I forget exactly, but its a bunch of things stuck together. Its also covered with tentacles)
- Dangerous in a bunch of ways: fire breath, poisonous stingers which it can shoot from its tentacles, and maybe acid breath

If it had a good Escape answer I’d be proposing it as an FBS candidate.

Edit - As a side-note, I think the discussion around MitD’s size is actually proving very fruitful. In time, there are a couple other points I hope we can similarly discuss, but I don’t want to sidetrack us.

[Jineon]

The change in the shape of the eyes is at #109
ETA: #117: bigger than goblin's eyes
ETA2: #181: the young black dragon wouldn't fit under the umbrella
ETA3: #202: Miko, Detect Evil, Blue eyes
ETA4: #208: Miko, Detect Evil, Black eyes
ETA5: #214: Ogre's eyes are wider apart than human's ones
ETA5: #281: Miko, Detect Evil, Blue eyes, failure(lead)
ETA6: #475: two Haleys barely fit under the umbrella
ETA7: #477: stomp shape + didn't know he could do something he'd already done once

[Hardcore]

The problem with MitD being a creature of folklore is that it will make people go "-Que?" at the time of reveal. I really doubt that was the idea. Of course, Americans have a tendency of assuming the generality of their culture so it could very well be something from American folklore.

It is most likely MitD is a D&D creature, with a possibility for something from popular culture.

[Vendanna]

Also interesting from the link to El Coco is a link to the Peluda from french folklore, which is also a decent candidate. I need to look into it more (probably next week), but some of its abilities:

- Immense strength (it makes a river split just by stomping)
- Near invulnerability (it is impervious to damage except for cutting off its tail which kills it)
- Weird looking (I forget exactly, but its a bunch of things stuck together. Its also covered with tentacles)
- Dangerous in a bunch of ways: fire breath, poisonous stingers which it can shoot from its tentacles, and maybe acid breath

If it had a good Escape answer I’d be proposing it as an FBS candidate.

Edit - As a side-note, I think the discussion around MitD’s size is actually proving very fruitful. In time, there are a couple other points I hope we can similarly discuss, but I don’t want to sidetrack us.

having Spanish origin could also explain why "5 de mayo" happened on the battlefield as Xykon bursted out, with all those mexican zombies mariachis? :o

[Grey_Wolf_c]

having Spanish origin could also explain why "5 de mayo" happened on the battlefield as Xykon bursted out, with all those mexican zombies mariachis? :o

...

It really isn't. 5 de Mayo (https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/cinco-de-mayo/) is not a pan-Mexican celebration. It is not their independence day, or anything like that.

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

It really isn't. 5 de Mayo (https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/cinco-de-mayo/) is not a pan-Mexican celebration. It is not their independence day, or anything like that.Tacos are delicious regardless of the date, in any event. Even if that event is Cinco de Mayo and associated promotional discounts.

[Aspheric]

The problem with MitD being a creature of folklore is that it will make people go "-Que?" at the time of reveal. I really doubt that was the idea. Of course, Americans have a tendency of assuming the generality of their culture so it could very well be something from American folklore.

It is most likely MitD is a D&D creature, with a possibility for something from popular culture.

I can't see how MitD being a recognizable creature means anything, given that there aren't really any recognizable creatures that are a) super strong, b) capable of the escape, and c), as small (and possibly as young) as MitD is indicated to be. Besides, how many people outside of this forum are familiar with the appearances of any of the FBS candidates? The fact that we still don't exactly know what the worm was that Hel provided her priest with on #1158 (and most of us certainly couldn't be able to identify it without the aid of whichever Monster's Manual provided its stablock) should be indication enough that recognizability isn't a factor in the reveal that Rich has in mind.

Also, I don't feel like the general ignorance Americans possess of other culture's folklore has anything to do with the choice Rich made for who MitD is. I'm inclined to agree that it will be a D&D creature, though that's no more a con for El Coco as it is for the Carbosilicate Amorph.

On a different note, I feel like O-Chul might survive after MitD reveals himself. It would make sense for him to have an "Aha!" moment, and reveal for the readers (or potentially to the Order and/or Lien) what MitD actually is. At least, it makes sense to me!

[Squire Doodad]

A D&D monster is more probable simply because of the setting of the work and little more. There are mythological entities so obscure that they would not be probable since not even Rich would have heard of them, but for the most part lots of things are fair game. For all we know, Rich went on an encyclopedia binge a week before deciding on MitD and dug up some relatively unusual lore that contained what he chose MitD to be.

[Brumagris]

1) That's exactly what MitD is doing all the time
2) Exactly - MitD is surprising to everyone who sees him for the first time, but is familiar with his species

So, what remains is to find either a proof or a contradiction to Coco's great strength.
I didn't find it in the wiki. Maybe you, as someone familiar with original stories, can help here?

Sadly I don't recall much about his strength, just that it is nearly unbeatable (damage reduction? :) ). You can just avoid it by behaving well/eating your veggies/going to bed on time, but there isn't a real chance to defeat it

[KrankenWagon]

Tacos are delicious regardless of the date, in any event.


https://youtu.be/7XGX64XfSkU?t=5343

[woweedd]

Spaniard here, and delighted that you are bringing this piece from our childhood to the board :) thank you!


A few notes to complement:
1. el Coco is always hidden in the shadows. Let it be the dark basement, behind heavy furniture or under an odd umbrella... waiting for the misbehaving children
2. el Coco is not supposed to talk... just to come and take you for a late evening snack! Hence quite surprising if it has MITD loquacity
Wait...MITD HATES being in the shadows. He wants nothing more then to leave them.

[Squire Doodad]

Wait...MITD HATES being in the shadows. He wants nothing more then to leave them.

Yes, but that may well be unusual for his kind. It's a character trait, not a species trait. Wanting light in particular (as opposed to just leaving the shadows) is also a character trait but does rule out photophobic candidates such as Grues.

[Edreyn]

Wait...MITD HATES being in the shadows. He wants nothing more then to leave them.

Many people hate what parents forced upon them. If MitD is a son of male el Coco and female la Coca, it's possible that they forced him to love darkness, and in result he now hates it.

[Kish]

If MitD is a son of male el Coco and female el Coca,
If you want to gender the words, remember that every word in Spanish has a gender, including the articles. It should be "female la Coca."

[Edreyn]

If you want to gender the words, remember that every word in Spanish has a gender, including the articles. It should be "female la Coca."

Thank you, fixed.

[Squire Doodad]

If you want to gender the words, remember that every word in Spanish has a gender, including the articles. It should be "female la Coca."

There are exceptions though- all giraffes have a feminine article, for example, meaning that it could just be "el Coco" regardless of the gender unless there is a female form that exists. This also may well not be the case, but my point is that every language is largely built on the exceptions of rules.

[Darth Paul]

every language is largely built on the exceptions of rules.

What about "I before E except after C"?

[Qwertystop]

What about "I before E except after C"?
More exceptions than matches. (https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/i-before-e-except-after-c)

[Aspheric]

English is terrible at following its own rules, isn't it?

[Darth Paul]

Rules are made to be broken. :smallamused:

[Qwertystop]

Language rules are written long after they're established, and anyone who thinks they'll hold is kidding themselves. Languages are written by their speakers.

[Crusher]

I think all the votes and changes are included (and Darth Paul has now moved into first place for most times changing vote). If I missed yours, please let me know.

I’ll retabulate the leaders again in a few weeks.

[Kastor]

It's been a while since I've been on this thread. I'd like to formally cast my vote for Protean please!:smalltongue:

[Keltest]

English is terrible at following its own rules, isn't it?

I think it was Grey Wolf who said that English rules were so badly written that its basically impossible to speak it wrong.

[Darth Paul]

I think all the votes and changes are included (and Darth Paul has now moved into first place for most times changing vote).

https://i.imgflip.com/1627be.jpg

[3Power]

Waiting for a Team Evil appearance, we can settle for the little clues we have.

I'm still trying to understand the art of the Escape scene (the glowing eyes). That's not how magic usually works and Laurin's psionics didn't really work that way either.

#1160 has:
- a spell-like ability cast without speaking its name (no eyes, so neither glow nor no-glow);
- Roy's eyes glowing when using his sword's powers;
- Durkon's eyes not glowing when using the returning property of his hammer.

Do the powers of an ancestral weapon come from the bearer rather than the weapon? Would Durkon's eyes not glow because he's using his weapon's magic while Roy's eyes do because the magic he uses comes from him (and is channeled in some way through the weapon)?

The color of the eyes and the glowing when using magic seems somewhat inconsistent to me and I can't really see a pattern there. Maybe I'm just trying too hard and this is just some artistic glitter ink on some magic effects thrown in for awesomeness sake.

FWIW, V's eyes glow on several occassions, especially when angry, like when he threatened Elan on the boat, or in this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0884.html) comic that I just found by chance.

[Quebbster]

More exceptions than matches. (https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/i-before-e-except-after-c)

Indeed (https://teespring.com/shop/i-before-e-except-when-your-fo#pid=527&cid=101949&sid=front).

[Jineon]

FWIW, V's eyes glow on several occassions, especially when angry, like when he threatened Elan on the boat, or in this [Jineon's note : link cut - less than 10 posts] comic that I just found by chance.
Indeed. There is very little consistency in the way glowing eyes are drawn. Miko's eyes glow blue in #281 but are still black in the same circumstances (Detect Evil stopped by a lead sheet) in #208. It could be emotion based but Miko seems to have cooled down a bit in #281 so I'm not sure I'd want to consider it's that.

So much for this idea, I guess. Thanks for pointing out these occurences.

[Squire Doodad]

Indeed. There is very little consistency in the way glowing eyes are drawn. Miko's eyes glow blue in #281 but are still black in the same circumstances (Detect Evil stopped by a lead sheet) in #208. It could be emotion based but Miko seems to have cooled down a bit in #281 so I'm not sure I'd want to consider it's that.

So much for this idea, I guess. Thanks for pointing out these occurences.

For spellcasters, its less a matter of "eyes will glow under this circumstance" and more of a "these circumstances may cause eyes to glow".

[Aspheric]

I think it was Grey Wolf who said that English rules were so badly written that its basically impossible to speak it wrong.

Sounds about right!


For spellcasters, its less a matter of "eyes will glow under this circumstance" and more of a "these circumstances may cause eyes to glow".

As the one who brought up the glowing eyes thing, my point was more that they seemed to indicate that MitD (and possibly but not necessarily anyone else) used some kind of magical ability. It's probably worth noting that the comic's art style has changed, but characters who use spells or replicate spells through other effects still give some sort of visual indication that they're using some kind of magic. The distinct glow of MitD's eyes in the Escape scene suggests he's using magic explicitly, since we wouldn't be able to see any colourful aura surrounding his limbs, as with V, Durkon, or any other spellcaster in the story. Or, at least, I believe that to be the case. Of course, this is complicated by the fact that we don't know exactly what spell/ability MitD used...

Regarding the Escape, something that I've been thinking about recently is how I'm not sure it can be the Protean. Its explanation obviously has the problems of being extremely coincidental, which I suppose is fine, but that seems to conflict with this quote from Rich, as swiped from the first post:


[O-Chul] breaks himself out of the cage, he drives off Redcloak with a lucky shot, and most importantly, he has won the trust of the monster in the darkness over the course of months. So much so that the monster digs deep and discovers powers that he didn't even know he had in order to save him.

Would the MitD really have discovered a power "he didn't know he had," if as a Protean, he just happened to have it in that moment? The phrasing here suggests that he had the capacity to "escape" O-Chul all along, at any point until Xykon was about to kill him, and tapped into this power when he became desperate. That doesn't really make sense as far as the Hegunemnon is concerned, as it requires a coincidental shifting to have the right ability for the scene. Now, I realize this could be reading too much into Rich's quote, but I'm not sure why he would phrase the above comment as he did if he knew that the Protean wouldn't otherwise have the power to make the Escape work.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Would the MitD really have discovered a power "he didn't know he had," if as a Protean, he just happened to have it in that moment?

Yes, if the power he discovered inside himself is the Alter Shape ability - i.e. the ability to control what he morphs into, rather than it being completely random. It also explains why later he can't teleport the goblin: he might be morphing into a creature on purpose, he just doesn't know which creature can teleport.

Grey Wolf

[Squire Doodad]

Yes, if the power he discovered inside himself is the Alter Shape ability - i.e. the ability to control what he morphs into, rather than it being completely random. It also explains why later he can't teleport the goblin: he might be morphing into a creature on purpose, he just doesn't know which creature can teleport.

Grey Wolf

It could, of course, be that he literally didn't know he was in a form that let him use the relevant power (or that he can use the powers of the creatures he morphs into) but the Alter Shape thing works too. Basically, is a weird one for the Protean but doesn't really hamper it much at all.

[Keltest]

Yes, if the power he discovered inside himself is the Alter Shape ability - i.e. the ability to control what he morphs into, rather than it being completely random. It also explains why later he can't teleport the goblin: he might be morphing into a creature on purpose, he just doesn't know which creature can teleport.

Grey Wolf

Isnt that mutually exclusive with the idea that he's deliberately holding a specific shape or partial shape out of politeness or whatever?

[Peelee]

Isnt that mutually exclusive with the idea that he's deliberately holding a specific shape or partial shape out of politeness or whatever?

Regardless, it fits perfectly fine with the Peeleean Protean Theory.

[Squire Doodad]

Regardless, it fits perfectly fine with the Peeleean Protean Theory.

Is that the Italian Protean one, or the Norwegian one?

[lio45]

I would like to formally propose a vote for two changes to the FBS.

First, I would like to propose that no D&D creature with a Challenge Rating below 18 should be considered.

Every scene that showcases the creature's power suggests he's massively powerful in some way. Unveiling a CR 13 glabrezu before a level 9 party and saying "you foolish mortals can never prevail...while I have the power of this on my side" would be dubious at best; telling that same CR 13 creature "we all know how powerful you are, there's nothing in there scarier than you should be" and expecting one to deal with an ancient silver dragon is downright absurd.
I support the vote for the Challenge Rating change
Would it help if I volunteer to track the votes? I do feel guilty about putting another vote on Grey Wolf so soon.
I agree 100% with Kish's reasoning, do support the vote (with Rob Redblade, that makes two of us), and will yet again point out that there's zero reason we have to use a ridiculous, cumbersome, misapplied, and needlessly "exhausting" for the curator (his own word) system in order to run it.

How about a simple binary choice between

"YES, I would like to raise the CR requirement to 18."
"NO, I would like that requirement to stay where it is."

It would be pretty easy to run. Could even be run publicly, if we ask people to just include their binary vote as part of whatever ongoing discussion is taking place (put them in bold or in color, if you want to be sure).

I'd volunteer to compile these votes, if Kish doesn't.

Oh and BTW, I would vote YES <---- this is how people can vote while posting; pretty seamless no?

[Peelee]

I
It would be pretty easy to run. Could even be run publicly, if we ask people to just include their binary vote as part of whatever ongoing discussion is taking place (put them in bold or in color, if you want to be sure).

I'd volunteer to compile these votes, if Kish doesn't.

Oh and BTW, I would vote YES <---- this is how people can vote while posting; pretty seamless no?

Unless one has nothing to post other than a vote, which I susoect would be the case for a significant percentage, which gets us right back to the reason GW does the quasi-public vote.

[thelivingmonkey]

I agree 100% with Kish's reasoning, do support the vote (with Rob Redblade, that makes two of us), and will yet again point out that there's zero reason we have to use a ridiculous, cumbersome, misapplied, and needlessly "exhausting" for the curator (his own word) system in order to run it.

How about a simple binary choice between

"YES, I would like to raise the CR requirement to 18."
"NO, I would like that requirement to stay where it is."

It would be pretty easy to run. Could even be run publicly, if we ask people to just include their binary vote as part of whatever ongoing discussion is taking place (put them in bold or in color, if you want to be sure).

I'd volunteer to compile these votes, if Kish doesn't.

Oh and BTW, I would vote YES <---- this is how people can vote while posting; pretty seamless no?

I don't know what makes you think seconding the call for a vote at this time is a wise decision, after so many people have voiced their opinion that we shouldn't have a vote.

There is such a small chance that a vote for ANY change will pass right now. If there is a vote, my vote is for no change and yes, don't worry, I'll DM GW ASAP.

EDIT: Or I guess ASAN (As Soon As Needed)

[Darth Paul]

Isnt that mutually exclusive with the idea that he's deliberately holding a specific shape or partial shape out of politeness or whatever?

Holding a specific shape (or partial shape), rather than letting himself coalesce into a constant boiling mass of protoplasmic flesh (I just came up with that phrase, I think, unless I read it somewhere, but either way I really like the way it rolls off the keyboard) is different from specifically changing into the shape of a creature with the extraordinary powers he needs at a critical moment. I think the "discovery of his powers" would be that he can choose a specific creature, not just freeze himself into a shape which doesn't represent any specific creature at all.

[Squire Doodad]

Holding a specific shape (or partial shape), rather than letting himself coalesce into a constant boiling mass of protoplasmic flesh (I just came up with that phrase, I think, unless I read it somewhere, but either way I really like the way it rolls off the keyboard) is different from specifically changing into the shape of a creature with the extraordinary powers he needs at a critical moment. I think the "discovery of his powers" would be that he can choose a specific creature, not just freeze himself into a shape which doesn't represent any specific creature at all.

That is a real word, but it doesn't quite mean that. Close but not exactly.

In other news: Yeah, pretty much. For all we know, a Protean MitD hadn't assumed a specific form- he had stopped in whatever mode he was at, in between or not.

[lio45]

I don't know what makes you think seconding the call for a vote at this time is a wise decisionThe fact that I've personally found the CR requirements to be unacceptably low for about a decade now. I'm always going to be in favor of raising them, and if I happen to be around whenever someone has the good sense of suggesting that particular change, I'll always give them my support and my vote.

Plus, I've been arguing for a while that there's no fundamental reason why running a vote should be "exhausting" on the curator, so, to be coherent with my position, I'm not treating this community having a vote (on a binary matter) as a huge deal that requires lots of work.

As for Peelee's point, I don't necessarily disagree; it could be via PMs as well. However, I happen to think it would probably be okay even if done in the thread. But even via PMs, it's easily compiled, especially if we ask voters to just use the PM Subject for their "yes" or "no".

[Aspheric]

Yes, if the power he discovered inside himself is the Alter Shape ability - i.e. the ability to control what he morphs into, rather than it being completely random. It also explains why later he can't teleport the goblin: he might be morphing into a creature on purpose, he just doesn't know which creature can teleport.

I think the "discovery of his powers" would be that he can choose a specific creature, not just freeze himself into a shape which doesn't represent any specific creature at all.

I suppose this suffices as a technical explanation, but I don't know. Wouldn't he still need to know the creature he's transforming into for the Protean's Alter Shape to satisfy the Escape? I don't know if that is knowledge MitD possesses, since he doesn't seem to know what he is himself, though I guess that's too subjective to judge either way.

I don't have opinions on the Protean either way, though I'd be surprised if MitD revealed himself to be the shifting mass of flesh that is the Hagunemnon, since I've been reading the descriptions of his capabilities (i.e. the stomp, swallowing Redcloak whole) as suggestive of appendages that aren't constantly changing. That's my personal read, though, and I admit it would be kind of amusing for RC to betray Xykon, and MitD having an, "ugh, hold on, one second," moment as he morphs back into having a mouth to satisfy Xykon's command for him.

Unrelated: I looked back at the SRD page for the Hagunemnon and noticed it has "immunities," though the page doesn't articulate what they're actually immune to. Does anyone know what it's immunities actually are? I'm curious!


There is such a small chance that a vote for ANY change will pass right now.

It's also not great to have voting periods follow one another so closely, especially when the last one was against making any changes. I think it'd be better to wait, especially since the last one was so contentious.

[Darth Paul]

My theory (unless it's better phrased as an hypothesis) goes something like this:

The Monster has been hanging around Team Evil, specifically Redcloak, the knowledge guy, for years. MitD has this Detect Thoughts power (assuming he is a Protean). He doesn't really have much to do, because they don't trust him to do much, but sometimes, he reads thoughts. It's a power he's not really aware of having because he's always had it. So, without fully realizing it, he's picked up a lot of Redcloak's knowledge.

Now comes the time when he needs to find the power to help O-Chul Escape. Where should O-Chul Escape to? In V's mind, MitD can see an Azurite settlement. O-Chul's other friends! Cool! How will he Escape? If only there were some creature MitD could turn into that had the ability to teleport everybody to that place! Well... Redcloak was thinking about psionic powers just the other day, and he was reading about a creature that has the psionic ability to teleport... so... try really hard... and.... change...

Is it a huge stretch? Perhaps. Does it make a sort of sense? Perhaps.

EDIT: I see the SRD lists a +47 Intimidate skill. Would that account for the instance of shouting at Haley and Belkar, rather than a Shout spell of some kind? Even at a lower level of skill due to his youth?

[Mightymosy]

There's another thing:

I just read that the Protean can only copy extraordinal abilities, but not spell like ones.
What is Wish?
Or "Teleport others"?

[Keltest]

There's another thing:

I just read that the Protean can only copy extraordinal abilities, but not spell like ones.
What is Wish?
Or "Teleport others"?

Depends on the monster. Different monsters cast different effects as different types. Part of the challenge with the Protean has been finding monsters with extraordinary abilities to do what we need it to do.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

There's another thing:

I just read that the Protean can only copy extraordinal abilities, but not spell like ones.
What is Wish?
Or "Teleport others"?

This is addressed in the protean's entry in 3a.

Grey Wolf

[Squire Doodad]

My theory (unless it's better phrased as an hypothesis) goes something like this:

The Monster has been hanging around Team Evil, specifically Redcloak, the knowledge guy, for years. MitD has this Detect Thoughts power (assuming he is a Protean). He doesn't really have much to do, because they don't trust him to do much, but sometimes, he reads thoughts. It's a power he's not really aware of having because he's always had it. So, without fully realizing it, he's picked up a lot of Redcloak's knowledge.

Now comes the time when he needs to find the power to help O-Chul Escape. Where should O-Chul Escape to? In V's mind, MitD can see an Azurite settlement. O-Chul's other friends! Cool! How will he Escape? If only there were some creature MitD could turn into that had the ability to teleport everybody to that place! Well... Redcloak was thinking about psionic powers just the other day, and he was reading about a creature that has the psionic ability to teleport... so... try really hard... and.... change...

Is it a huge stretch? Perhaps. Does it make a sort of sense? Perhaps.

EDIT: I see the SRD lists a +47 Intimidate skill. Would that account for the instance of shouting at Haley and Belkar, rather than a Shout spell of some kind? Even at a lower level of skill due to his youth?
First set of things: I think that's roughly what the canon headcanon for the Protean hypothesis.
For the Edit: that would make sense. I take it that's a skill for the Protean's inherent form? If so, and if it is not on the list of pros already, its worth noting. It isn't particularly important but is an extra unique pro, which is nice.

[Darth Paul]

For the Edit: that would make sense. I take it that's a skill for the Protean's inherent form? If so, and if it is not on the list of pros already, its worth noting. It isn't particularly important but is an extra unique pro, which is nice.

It's not considered a Big Scene, I don't believe so anyway, but it is a nice added factor. Other candidates may have similar skills, I haven't trawled the entries. +47 is rather impressive, though.
It is listed as a base skill for the Protean, not something that comes from shapeshifting. My understanding is that only extraordinary abilities are gained through shifting, skills would have to be inherently known.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

First set of things: I think that's roughly what the canon headcanon for the Protean hypothesis.
For the Edit: that would make sense. I take it that's a skill for the Protean's inherent form? If so, and if it is not on the list of pros already, its worth noting. It isn't particularly important but is an extra unique pro, which is nice.

It is hardly unique, and in fact it can be considered that a natural intimidation skill is a con: "He's about as scary as musty styrofoam", after all (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0191.html).

Grey Wolf

[NoHaxJustPi]

Correction: Any scarier than he SHOULD be (+47 Intimidate)

[Keltest]

Correction: Any scarier than he SHOULD be (+47 Intimidate)

Given the results of his deliberate attempts to be scary, I think its safe to say that intimidate is not one of his strong points.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Correction: Any scarier than he SHOULD be (+47 Intimidate)

Yes, but if the scariness is due to a sine-qua-non skill, it begs the question of why MitD is not inherently scary (in the same way that Haley can't help to be believed when she lies while hopped up on the glib potion).

Now, I'm personally on your side, I think that the +47 is indicative of the fact that a protean is a boiling mass of mutation, which is probably scary and intimidating as all get-out, but then, why is it that MitD is so terrible at it? Well, presumably because of his attitude and speech and personality... but I can see people looking at the evidence and saying "a protean cannot help but be intimidating" (ETA: see Keltest above). Bottom line, it's a nice supporting detail, but I'm not sure it rates as enough of a "pro" to add. That said, like with the size of the ANB, I'll add it if enough people seem to be in favour of it.

Grey Wolf

[b_jonas]

Yes, but if the scariness is due to a sine-qua-non skill, it begs the question of why MitD is not inherently scary (in the same way that Haley can't help to be believed when she lies while hopped up on the glib potion). That may be because his scaryness isn't an always active aura, but an attack for which he has to spend a deliberate action. The Eye of fear and flame has such an ability, as #469 shows (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0469.html). And the only time the MitD tried to use that ability was in #103, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0103.html) when he tried it on Xykon, and Xykon is immune to that ability on account of being undead.

Update: unless perhaps he also used the fear attack on the lantern archons in #194 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0194.html), prompted by the conversation in #191.

[The Aboleth]

Update: unless perhaps he also used the fear attack on the lantern archons in #194 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0194.html), prompted by the conversation in #191.

You know, I just realized that MitD tells the lantern archons that he'd be "flatfooted" if they hit him. Proof that he has feet, perhaps?

Between that and the recent calendar scene implying he has a waist, we're starting to construct a vague outline* of MitD's anatomy!

*Mostly kidding, of course, but worth noting anyway.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

You know, I just realized that MitD tells the lantern archons that he'd be "flatfooted" if they hit him. Proof that he has feet, perhaps?

As far as I know, the condition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm) of flat-footed applies even to creatures that don't have feet and nevertheless can be surprised or start a combat low on the initiative scale.

Grey Wolf

[Darth Paul]

That may be because his scaryness isn't an always active aura, but an attack for which he has to spend a deliberate action.

Isn't using a skill considered a standard action?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Isn't using a skill considered a standard action?

Isn't that what b_jonas said?

Grey Wolf

[Darth Paul]

b_jonas suggested "attack". That's one possibility. "Intimidation" is a skill use, and then again there are fear auras and such which would fit the description as well. I'm verging on the pedantic here, I realize, but it could be a distinction that matters in reading a creature stat block.

[The Aboleth]

As far as I know, the condition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm) of flat-footed applies even to creatures that don't have feet and nevertheless can be surprised or start a combat low on the initiative scale.

Grey Wolf

I had no idea that "flat-footed" was a condition. Thanks for this!

[Jineon]

Between that and the recent calendar scene implying he has a waist, we're starting to construct a vague outline* of MitD's anatomy!

*Mostly kidding, of course, but worth noting anyway.

If constructing a vague outline of the MitD's anatomy is the name of the game, have you looked at #701? 'Tis a shame I can't post images because I'd have some nice photo montages of various creatures trying to play with that rope the way the MitD does.

Suffice to say, look at the 10th panel. What kind of creature can give a rope these kind of angles ? One with at least two grasping appendages, sure, and one with psionics. Now, that reduces the list of fit candidates by a lot !

#703 has it holding a book in various poses. There again, psionics or appendages.

And #477 tells us it has something able to stomp the ground on the back of its figure (rather than straight under the head as an humanoid would).

There's much to learn from the art. Is the place where it holds things (ex. O-Chul's foot in #477) consistent? Is the umbrella magically following it everywhere or does it hold it? What about its mouth placement?

Please, don't get me started.

[Ruck]

That may be because his scaryness isn't an always active aura, but an attack for which he has to spend a deliberate action.

I don't know a whole lot about D&D mechanics, but I figured Intimidate was a skill check, and so MitD would have to actually try to intimidate someone in order for any bonuses to apply.


If constructing a vague outline of the MitD's anatomy is the name of the game, have you looked at #701? 'Tis a shame I can't post images because I'd have some nice photo montages of various creatures trying to play with that rope the way the MitD does.

Speaking of #701, you know what makes "holding something AND moving it at the same time" difficult? Using a move-equivalent action to hold a form. Especially if you needed to do so to have appendages capable of pulling.

[Aveline]

Speaking of #701, you know what makes "holding something AND moving it at the same time" difficult? Using a move-equivalent action to hold a form. Especially if you needed to do so to have appendages capable of pulling.

Mm, yeah, "holding things" is a clue that I think is significant but hard to make anything of. At Kraagor's Tomb he holds the umbrella, paintbrush and paint can at the same time. Maybe he's holding the umbrella with his neck, but I think it's most likely he has more than two arms, which can also stretch/change shape/unfurl to great lengths based on the height of some of the X's he draws on screen. (Or he hovers. Or he has latent psionic abilities.)

I like the Protean, and I definitely can't assess what is unreasonable for a Protean to be able to do. I'm just continuing your train of thought for a bit.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Mm, yeah, "holding things" is a clue that I think is significant but hard to make anything of. At Kraagor's Tomb he holds the umbrella, paintbrush and paint can at the same time. Maybe he's holding the umbrella with his neck, but I think it's most likely he has more than two arms, which can also stretch/change shape/unfurl to great lengths based on the height of some of the X's he draws on screen. (Or he hovers. Or he has latent psionic abilities.)

It's not impossible to hold both an umbrella and a can of paint in one hand, especially when one has 40+ strength and thus it's like holding the umbrella and your keys.

I do like that the hypothetical MitD!protean would find it hard to grab things with appendages that keep changing shapes, though. And thus that he'd find it easier to just walk into anything he would want to move (because, again, when one has 40-ish strength, things you push tend to move. Even if they where bolted to the ground beforehand)

Grey Wolf

[Jineon]

Speaking of #701, you know what makes "holding something AND moving it at the same time" difficult? Using a move-equivalent action to hold a form. Especially if you needed to do so to have appendages capable of pulling.
The problem I see with the Protean is that it can meet most requirements we can throw at it by default. The Escape scene was maybe the hardest for it to meet it and we have an explanation for that (which I can find fitting enough).

So, the Protean is a winner by default, which I find a bit anti-climactic, so I like to ask myself the question, may there be another winner? I like the idea of White Slaad turning Black upon reveal but we've seen a Slaad (albeit a Red one) and the eyes don't match like, at all.

The ANB can't pull a rope for it's life but maybe it can use some kind of psionic telekinesis to do so? Can Telekinetic Thrust be used for something else than a thrust?

The Glabrezu could fit as far as I'm concerned, though it's a bit low on Strength for both the Tower and the Stomp scenes.

The Hunting Horror lacks limbs and I don't see it handling the rope, though as is well stated in the opening posts (thanks for putting them so orderly!), it could very well have limbs.

The Carbosilicate Amorph shares its situation with the Protean. Not being stated in DnD, it's easy to have him reach the requirements as long as the Escape scene matches. Plus, I don't buy the Teraport explanation (but that's just me, though, of course, all this speech is just me - I'm not trying to invalidate any proposal here).

And the Uvuudaum... no, just no. I really can't see Rich going for a creature with no eyes when deciding what the MitD would be, especially since he could still choose what abilities he'd want it to display at the time (so wasn't bound by the Big Scenes).

I'm still looking through the other proposals so I may still pick a winner in there. I still have to go through all the Monsters for any Season too, in order to maybe pick a winner based on physical apearance and gut feeling.

EDIT: Regarding the umbrella: I've been trying to think what kind of shadows could take the shape they do under it, specifically assessing if they could graphically be emited by the MitD. I've come to the conclusion that they're probably magical shadows, which could very well be cast by the umbrella itself, which would then be magical and, hey, if it's magical, why not also enchant it to magically follow the beast it's meant to hide while we (Xykon or Redcloak) are at it?

I mean, the MitD does drop it from time to time, but that's when there's shadows around so that may be part of the enchantment of the umbrella.

I've checked, by the way. The umbrella has the exact same length when covering the MitD and when lying on the ground so it's not holding it in its mouth.

[Peelee]

The problem I see with the Protean is that it can meet most requirements we can throw at it by default.

What do you mean, it meets most requirements by default? And double what do you mean by that being a problem?

[Jineon]

What do you mean, it meets most requirements by default? And double what do you mean by that being a problem?

When we're considering other creatures, we are looking for one creature with all the abilities to fit the big scenes. When we're considering the Protean, all we have to do is find one of them with one ability as an Ex for each of the big scenes. If we were able to find a creature with a fitting Teleport ability as an Ex ability, I'm willing to think we can find a creature allowing the Protean to partially morph into to fit whatever next scene Rich will throw at us. But once again, that's just me and a belief, just because I think it doesn't mean it's true.

It's not really a problem as much as "not funny". I mean, until we have a new Big Scene to work with, what's the funnier thing to do: wait for it doing nothing because we have a/some potential winner(s) already or search for other contenders?

I mean, beside talking about Star Wars and designing the perfect voting system, of course.:smallbiggrin:

[Ruck]

I have to admit, this is the first time I've ever heard the argument "It can't be the Protean because it fits too well."

[Joerg]

One could make that argument based on O-Chul's "you would not believe it". But I think the argument here is more that the protean can fit any scene, meaning that clues are largely irrelevant besides excluding other candidates. Or in other words, if the MitD had shown totally different abilities, the protean would probably still be a very good fit.

[Peelee]

I have to admit, this is the first time I've ever heard the argument "It can't be the Protean because it fits too well."

I know, I was expecting that to be saved for the Ha-Naga!

[Ruck]

One could make that argument based on O-Chul's "you would not believe it". But I think the argument here is more that the protean can fit any scene, meaning that clues are largely irrelevant besides excluding other candidates. Or in other words, if the MitD had shown totally different abilities, the protean would probably still be a very good fit.

My counterargument to that is that the Protean's innate abilities are a better fit for certain scenes than anything else on the FBS list (the Circus and Tower scenes specifically).

[Jineon]

I have to admit, this is the first time I've ever heard the argument "It can't be the Protean because it fits too well."
Well, it can very well be the Protean. Also, I don't think it fits "too well", if it did, we'd not need to tap into subjective interpretations of its personality to have it fit the eyes thingy, it's just that it can fit almost anything "good enough" so we can (ETA: me included) basically rationalize any con as something still in the realm of the acceptable.

Basically, what Joerg said.

Note also that I'm willing to see the Protean as a workable candidate but it doesn't have that dream forged in glitter ink (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1134.html) ring to me.

Also, I've reached 10 posts, so:
http://www.jeancarron.ch/images/MitD1.png
Because this one cracks me up.

[Squire Doodad]

My take on the intimidation bit:
It would appear that, assuming MitD is a Protean, either
a) Rich is interpreting the intimidate skill to be either an ability that must be manually used or is otherwise not always in effect
b) MitD is really poor at using it, meaning the given his youth and ineptness, his intimidation is of the "whining child dragging and kicking their heels" variety instead of the "Half-Dragon Demon Warlord is brandishing their axe in your direction" variety. He's not only bad at it, he doesn't get how to use it right.
c) Rich is seeing the skill as one that requires the entity to be seen for most of the effect (works with the "roiling mass of flesh" bit, maybe its a "inherent +5 if not visible" instead)

[Kish]

I think the Intimidate thing is being overthought.

Behold (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html), a wildly successful Intimidate check against two high-level adventurers, even with the circumstance penalty from the "please?" afterward.

[Ruck]

I think the Intimidate thing is being overthought.

Behold (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html), a wildly successful Intimidate check against two high-level adventurers, even with the circumstance penalty from the "please?" afterward.

I thought that's where we started, with Darth Paul's comment, and I agree-- especially insofar as "The Protean's +47 to Intimidate easily explains this result."

[Aspheric]

If the shout in that scene is MitD using the Intimidate skill, it's worth remembering everything Haley was able to do with that +20 Bluff Skill potion. I don't think it's unfeasible that the MitD's shout could result from a high Intimidate skill, or another skill that has a similar effect of, "allow me to resolve this conversation as I desire." On #965, Roy even remarks that "magic makes sense. What [Haley] does defies the natural order," presumably in reference to her liberal use of the Bluff skill. It's a joke, yes, but it also seems to suggest that it's one of the ways the comic treats high skill checks.

Does no one know what the Hagunemnon's immunities are, though? It's odd that they're not included in its own statblock... and I still want to know!

[Darth Paul]

Does no one know what the Hagunemnon's immunities are, though? It's odd that they're not included in its own statblock... and I still want to know!

Now we're truly back where we started, because it was reading over the stat block that made me notice that Intimidate skill. And the reason I was reading? Trying to find the list of immunities, and failing completely. :smalltongue:

The Pathfinder version online has immunity to acid and polymorph attacks, as well as resistance (10) to electricity and sonic attacks. It also has a 50% chance to avoid added damage from sneak attacks and critical hits due to the shifting nature and location of its vital organs. However, this protean is considerably different from the 3.5 protean. The Pathfinder Protean is a serpent-like Outsider. link (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/protean/)

[Aspheric]

Now we're truly back where we started, because it was reading over the stat block that made me notice that Intimidate skill. And the reason I was reading? Trying to find the list of immunities, and failing completely. :smalltongue:

The Pathfinder version online has immunity to acid and polymorph attacks, as well as resistance (10) to electricity and sonic attacks. It also has a 50% chance to avoid added damage from sneak attacks and critical hits due to the shifting nature and location of its vital organs. However, this protean is considerably different from the 3.5 protean. The Pathfinder Protean is a serpent-like Outsider. link (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/protean/)

My tactics of diversion have succeeded! I AM CHAOS!! *backflips into a river*

... but yeah, Pathfinder Proteans are the main Chaos-aligned beings in that world, or so I believe? Why they're specifically serpentine, as opposed to formless, shifting beings like the 3.5 Hagunemnon, I think is strange, since the latter version of the Protean seems more fitting for an embodiement of the forces of Chaos, and more interesting as well. Still wondering about those immunities though, if anyone finds the answer!

[Vendanna]

My tactics of diversion have succeeded! I AM CHAOS!! *backflips into a river*

... but yeah, Pathfinder Proteans are the main Chaos-aligned beings in that world, or so I believe? Why they're specifically serpentine, as opposed to formless, shifting beings like the 3.5 Hagunemnon, I think is strange, since the latter version of the Protean seems more fitting for an embodiement of the forces of Chaos, and more interesting as well. Still wondering about those immunities though, if anyone finds the answer!

Probably because the original was designed based on one of the HP lovecraft horrors (the shoggot?) and they changed it to another one of the HP lovecraft horrors which are serpentine in form. since most of the creatures designed on D&D are adaptation of creatures of literature or similar (I recall a monster that is a flying shrimp based on a french cuisine plate) Oo

[Sir_Norbert]

It was originally based on the Hagunemnons from The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, the original radio series (they don't appear in the books).

[Throknor]

It was originally based on the Hagunemnons from The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, the original radio series (they don't appear in the books).

Hitchhiker's Wiki: Haggunenons (https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Haggunenons)

Man, I really need to find the radio broadcasts (or their scripts).

[Peelee]

Hitchhiker's Wiki: Haggunenons (https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Haggunenons)

Man, I really need to find the radio broadcasts (or their scripts).

Mp3s do exist, as that's how I heard em back in the day, but don't ask me how to obtain them anymore. The old ways are lost.

[InvisibleBison]

Does no one know what the Hagunemnon's immunities are, though? It's odd that they're not included in its own statblock... and I still want to know!

As far as I can tell, the Haguemnon's immunities were never listed. They're left out of the Epic Level Handbook, and neither the ELH errata nor the ELH 3.5 update booklet say anything about them.

[hamishspence]

As far as I can tell, the Haguemnon's immunities were never listed. They're left out of the Epic Level Handbook, and neither the ELH errata nor the ELH 3.5 update booklet say anything about them.
Maybe, as a 3rd ed monster, it had the Shapechanger Type rather than subtype, and Shapechangers in 3rd ed had specific type-based immunities - perhaps to polymorphing?

[Mightymosy]

This is addressed in the protean's entry in 3a.

Grey Wolf
Thanks!

The problem I see with the Protean is that it can meet most requirements we can throw at it by default. The Escape scene was maybe the hardest for it to meet it and we have an explanation for that (which I can find fitting enough).

So, the Protean is a winner by default, which I find a bit anti-climactic, so I like to ask myself the question, may there be another winner? I like the idea of White Slaad turning Black upon reveal but we've seen a Slaad (albeit a Red one) and the eyes don't match like, at all.

The ANB can't pull a rope for it's life but maybe it can use some kind of psionic telekinesis to do so? Can Telekinetic Thrust be used for something else than a thrust?

The Glabrezu could fit as far as I'm concerned, though it's a bit low on Strength for both the Tower and the Stomp scenes.

The Hunting Horror lacks limbs and I don't see it handling the rope, though as is well stated in the opening posts (thanks for putting them so orderly!), it could very well have limbs.

The Carbosilicate Amorph shares its situation with the Protean. Not being stated in DnD, it's easy to have him reach the requirements as long as the Escape scene matches. Plus, I don't buy the Teraport explanation (but that's just me, though, of course, all this speech is just me - I'm not trying to invalidate any proposal here).

And the Uvuudaum... no, just no. I really can't see Rich going for a creature with no eyes when deciding what the MitD would be, especially since he could still choose what abilities he'd want it to display at the time (so wasn't bound by the Big Scenes).

I'm still looking through the other proposals so I may still pick a winner in there. I still have to go through all the Monsters for any Season too, in order to maybe pick a winner based on physical apearance and gut feeling.

EDIT: Regarding the umbrella: I've been trying to think what kind of shadows could take the shape they do under it, specifically assessing if they could graphically be emited by the MitD. I've come to the conclusion that they're probably magical shadows, which could very well be cast by the umbrella itself, which would then be magical and, hey, if it's magical, why not also enchant it to magically follow the beast it's meant to hide while we (Xykon or Redcloak) are at it?

I mean, the MitD does drop it from time to time, but that's when there's shadows around so that may be part of the enchantment of the umbrella.

I've checked, by the way. The umbrella has the exact same length when covering the MitD and when lying on the ground so it's not holding it in its mouth.
See, that's what I find highly problematic with the Protean as described..



It was originally based on the Hagunemnons from The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, the original radio series (they don't appear in the books).

Oh, THAT is interesting! I only know the books. And it's also sooooo close! Apperantly, it even has an ESCAPE scene, helping the protagonists escape. Unfortunately, thr mechanics don't match up.


But being from a radio series would fit the "Have I ever been drawn?" VEEEERY well, which I think is a huge clue anyways.

[Darth Paul]

See, that's what I find highly problematic with the Protean as described..


I'm puzzled by the sudden spate of "the Protean is problematic because it fits too well" posts.

I'm about to come up with a proposal for a templated half-goblin red-dragon; that should avoid that issue, at least.