PDA

View Full Version : A Fighter Fix So Simple, It's Not Even Homebrew



Quellian-dyrae
2007-09-30, 11:09 PM
So I was just thinking, maybe the fear of opening the floodgates to such things as 8,000 gold rings of Constant True Strike or 1,800 gold Holy Symbols of Cure Light Wounds on Command (also known as the "never go into battle wounded again" item) has caused us to overlook an easy fix for fighting characters. The guidelines for magic item creation, used wisely, can provide items that can counter some of the obvious limitations of the classes often deemed weak (except the CW samurai, of course; there's no helping them). Add in the rules for sentient magic items, and you have an easy and efficient solution that you can incorporate immediately. One idea is a sentient item (least sentience costs 1,000 gold) of dimension hop (from Complete Psionic, 1,800 gold per caster level) on command. Say 5th manifester level, a respectable 10,000 gold cost, and you get 30' of teleportation each round using the item's action. I figure if the main problem with the fighter is reliance on the full attack, well, problem solved. Also solves the Forcecage Combo Of Wizards Win, for that matter.

Of course, teleportation creates other issues, such as the potentiality of having the item ready an action to avoid attacks every round, making grappling useless, getting past obstructions, etc. Myself, I'm not sure I mind the idea of fighters blinking in and out of combat trying to attack each other, but still, it creates issues. The alternative, thus, would be Hustle on command. Only costs 1,800 gold more, and if you have speed boosters, it helps with them (also good for mundane move actions). Myself, I tend to use a lot of big maps, so I favor the combo of Hustle on command with constant Expeditious Retreat (putting it all into one item would be a total of 17,800; a 12th level char could get it and force the wizard to make up for it by casting Greater Magic Weapon each day).

This tactic can even make monks credible. Turn the cleric's cheese into the monk's balancer; Divine Power on command, sentient item, usable only to a monk. Monks have to be lawful aligned, so you get the alignment restriction cost reduction inherent. That's a touch more than 25,000 gold after the two reductions. Add it to Hustle (you don't need Expeditious Retreat) and it'll cover most of the main problems of the monk: mediocre BAB, difficulty using flurry (and inability to combine flurry with speed), and inability to prioritize Str (+6 enhancement, and it's not strictly unbalanced, since the divine favor on command costs over 50,000 before the class/alignment required reductions, more than a +6 belt of giant strength). With reductions, the total for divine power + hustle + sentience is around 30,000 gold. That's doable (but hurts) at 10th level, viable by 12th, and reasonable at 15th. Just don't make this option available to druids. I mean it. ::Glare::

Naturally, a DM could very well rule that letting the sentient item do those things is equivalent to making it a constant effect item (for rounds-duration effects, X4 cost). Frankly, this sort of thing could probably qualify as cheese, except when used to bring to par underpowered classes. Anyway, thoughts? Corrections? Favored "everyone should have these" items?

Toliudar
2007-10-01, 02:22 AM
snip

Frankly, this sort of thing could probably qualify as cheese, except when used to bring to par underpowered classes. Anyway, thoughts? Corrections? Favored "everyone should have these" items?

Yup, that pretty much sums it up. Divine Power on command - essentially, a continuous item with a bonus to your attack that scales up with you leveling, a +6 bonus to strength, and a few extra hit points. Even with the class restriction (as a DM, at the very least, I'd never allow an alignment restriction that overlaps another restriction), I'd price this item in the artifact range. Access to this item would make a one-level dip in monk attractive. And that's saying a great deal.

Saying that widely available at-will short-range teleportation "creates issues" is a bit like saying that kendar "borrows things". It's true, without fully capturing the magnitude of the change in game play that these items would bring about. With the campaigns I've been involved with, party-wide flying starts to become prevalent around level 8-10, and group teleportation (even short distances) around 10-12. To have the ability to bypass pit traps, zip up mountainsides (by popping from ledge to ledge), avoid grapples, tactical maneuvers, etc. Not to mention, make a mockery of the idea of a "guard". At level 5 or so.

I haven't played the ToB classes enough myself to speak confidently, but having seen them in action a bit, they seem to have gone a long way to fix difficulties with the paladin, monk and fighter, by giving a range of possible responses to a range of situations. Creating inexpensive sentient items doesn't feel like a good way to do that.

Arbitrarity
2007-10-01, 06:29 AM
Hmm...

50 ft teleport, without homebrewed items?

This looks like a job for: Shadow Hands!

Citizen Joe
2007-10-01, 06:37 AM
Of course, teleportation creates other issues, such as the potentiality of having the item ready an action to avoid attacks every round, making grappling useless, getting past obstructions, etc. Myself, I'm not sure I mind the idea of fighters blinking in and out of combat trying to attack each other, but still, it creates issues.

I believe the BBEG in the movie Chronicles of Riddick (sequel to Pitch Black, with Vin Diesel) did that very trick. Riddick was able to predict where the guy was going to be and attacked there, thus killing him when he ported.

Skjaldbakka
2007-10-01, 06:58 AM
Access to this item would make a one-level dip in monk attractive.

One and two level dips in monk are attractive anyway. Two levels for Evasion, all saves +3, wisdom to AC, improved unarmed strike, stunning fist, flurry of blows, and deflect arrows? Monk is pretty happy in terms of a two-level dip.

Green Bean
2007-10-01, 07:13 AM
I believe the BBEG in the movie Chronicles of Riddick (sequel to Pitch Black, with Vin Diesel) did that very trick. Riddick was able to predict where the guy was going to be and attacked there, thus killing him when he ported.

Unfortunately, not every player is Vin Diesel. :smalltongue:

Citizen Joe
2007-10-01, 07:32 AM
Well, the assumption is that you can only port away once per round. So if you escape one person, the second might still be able to get to you to attack, particularly if they ready an action to do so.

PlatinumJester
2007-10-01, 07:48 AM
Just use ToB.

Roderick_BR
2007-10-01, 09:31 AM
It'll bring back the reliance of the fighter on gear, that can be nullified with a Dispel Magic, or completely destroyed with a Mage's Disjunction.
And part of the Forcecage combo is using Dimensional Anchor to prevent characters with teleport or plane shifting itens to escape.

Indon
2007-10-01, 10:02 AM
Well, in a world in which pretty much everyone is already reliant on magic items, it wouldn't much hurt to add more, so long as it was done carefully.

And fortunately, since the major problem with power isn't Fighter vs. Wizard combat, but instead Fighter vs. Wizard _usefulness_, cheaper, creative magic items could indeed help fix that.

Kurald Galain
2007-10-01, 10:02 AM
I figure if the main problem with the fighter is reliance on the full attack, well, problem solved. Also solves the Forcecage Combo Of Wizards Win, for that matter.

Actually, that combo traditionally includes a Dimensional Lock spell, so you're still screwed against the wizard.

It is a decent idea, except that a fighter who teleports each round doesn't feel like a fighter much. Unless you're playing Smoke from mortal kombat.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-10-01, 10:33 AM
Not to mention, make a mockery of the idea of a "guard". At level 5 or so.
Do remember that the purpose of a guard is to keep out the rabble that can't just magically bypass said guard. Rabble that supposedly far outnumbers the folks that can magically bypass said guard.

There are other methods for protecting people and things from those exceptional few cases.


It is a decent idea, except that a fighter who teleports each round doesn't feel like a fighter much.
Perhaps we need to re-conceptualize what it means to be a fighter, then.

Especially since it seems that any solution that actually lets a fighter compete with spellcasters will have the same "problem."

Citizen Joe
2007-10-01, 10:50 AM
Keep in mind that Force Cage is level 7 spell... which means level 13 caster at least (ignoring magic items). So against a comparable level opponent, a rod of cancellation could be a handy ace in the hole. Yes, it is 11K gold, but that isn't too bad a back up for a fighter knowing he's dealing with a wizard.

Disintegrate also works... so a custom ring of disintegrate would be (1800 gp X 6 X 11 X 1/2 (50 charges)) = 59,400 gp for command word 50 charges of disintegrate. A little over a thousand gold per 'get out of force trap' card. Of course, kill crazy fighters would do stupid stuff like disintegrating people.

Yuki Akuma
2007-10-01, 11:14 AM
I fail to see how this isn't homebrew.

Sure, you're following the guidelines for creating custom magic items... it's still homebrew.

And fighters are already over-reliant on gear as it is. What happens when the mage drops a Dispel Magic? Or, Celestia forbid, Mordenkainen's Disjunction.

Anteros
2007-10-01, 11:22 AM
I fail to see how this isn't homebrew.

Sure, you're following the guidelines for creating custom magic items... it's still homebrew.

And fighters are already over-reliant on gear as it is. What happens when the mage drops a Dispel Magic? Or, Celestia forbid, Mordenkainen's Disjunction.

I dont get why every time someone suggests an improvement to fighters someone else will say something like "well if a wizard does this they can still win!"

I'm not entirely sure you guys understand this...but the point is not to make fighters invincible against wizards, it's to improve their utility.

Afraidofsharpie
2007-10-01, 11:23 AM
Same thing that happens to a fighter when his normal magic gear gets dispelled/disjunction'd he's still screwed.

Citizen Joe
2007-10-01, 11:24 AM
QD is saying that you don't have to home brew new feats or rework the fighter, there are existing rules for creating items that will fill the gaps in his skillset.

Of course, magic items usable by fighters are typically usable by anyone. So it doesn't really fix the fighter but rather power creeps the whole system.

Yuki Akuma
2007-10-01, 11:26 AM
But why do they need more versatility? They don't need to be versatile. They have casters and skillmonkeys for versatility.

D&D is, after all, based around the idea of a four-man party, each with their own speciality. The Fighter's speciality just happens to be hitting things really hard and not much else.

Anteros
2007-10-01, 11:32 AM
But why do they need more versatility? They don't need to be versatile. They have casters and skillmonkeys for versatility.

D&D is, after all, based around the idea of a four-man party, each with their own speciality. The Fighter's speciality just happens to be hitting things really hard and not much else.

Which is exactly the problem. There is almost no reason to be a fighter past a certain level. (aside from fluff) Anything you can do, someone else can do it better. It's supposed to be a 4 man party right? But past a certain level it's really just a one man wizard party while everyone else carries his stuff.

Indon
2007-10-01, 11:32 AM
Of course, magic items usable by fighters are typically usable by anyone. So it doesn't really fix the fighter but rather power creeps the whole system.

But someone playing a utility class isn't likely to get magical items for the same utility.

What need does a sorceror have for a Ring of Feather Fall?

Citizen Joe
2007-10-01, 11:47 AM
This reminds me of an Earthdawn group I was in. In Earthdawn, you can form groups and then other members of the group can strengthen you with their abilities. This was cheaper than advancing yourself, so you get some haggling back and forth to make an equitable arrangement. The drawback was that if you ever betrayed or through inaction allowed harm to befall a member of the group you get screwed hard. So I came up with this arrangement. We had four people in the group and then a fifth person outside the group that traveled with us. He was our 'champion'. We would help each other and then focus our abilities on the champion making him MUCH stronger than he should be for his circle (level). Since he wasn't actually in the group, we could send him into danger. If he ever betrayed us, we'd simply yank all our buffs and he's weak as a kitten. Pretty effective, actually.

KoDT69
2007-10-01, 11:57 AM
But why do they need more versatility? They don't need to be versatile. They have casters and skillmonkeys for versatility.

D&D is, after all, based around the idea of a four-man party, each with their own speciality. The Fighter's speciality just happens to be hitting things really hard and not much else.

Yes, by default the system leans that way, but that doesn't mean it HAS to be that way. I don't know about the rest of you, but I've seen PLENTY of movies where a Knight trains in DEFENSE just as much if not more than offense. Any skilled warrior has good defense, but D&D 3.x does not reflect that. D&D only offers offense to the fighter and pigeon-holes them into that big stong guy with a poky-stick role. A good defensive fighter would learn to duck and dodge as much or more than a rogue would, so why doesn't a fighter get evasion? And why almost no skill points? The great warriors in all our stories normally are masters of a trade as well which did not decrease their combat alertness (Spot, Listen, maybe Sense Motive)... So that's like 4 skill points alone for a single trade skill and the senses (which I won't even get into it but why are spot and listen even skills? they're senses!!!).

And since every character is dependant on their magic items whether you want to admit it or not, this is a good idea. I always try to get Rods of Cancellation for melee types. A dispel Magic is not a permanent fix for the low-level wizard anyway, it last only 1d4 rounds and must be targetted, so the wizard has to know which item invokes the power he's trying to counter. That's hardly likely for him to identify that kind of info on the spot especially while keeping out of sword reach! Disjunction is likely not going to do much better. By the time the wizards gain access to 9th level spells, the fighters would (or should have anyway) long ago taken Steadfast Determination and will more than likely have some sort of saving throw bonus granted from magic items (or Pally saves FTW), and hope to heck the 17th+ level fighter does NOT weild an artifact of some sort!

I don't agree with the WotC vision of the fighter and have done many fun things to improve them without ToB in my own campaigns. My fixes must be good to some degree because the same group of players went for 3/4 full casters last campaign to 3/4 melee classes in the newly started campaign. I don't restrict casters at all in my games either, so nobody can say I'm biased against casters (I prefer clerics myself :smallsmile:). I just think that all these fighter vs. wizard (combat or utility) always end badly because those biased toward wizards become militant that the wizard wins no matter what. Not in my games, sorry. No deity or outer-planar power with any amount of self-respect would EVER let some paranoid wizard hide in an extra-dimensional space and play 215 questions with them, nor would any decent fighter get trapped with a forcecage every time the wizard sees him. That whole freedom of movement isn't even an issue... Why grapple when close enough? Just cleave that fragile old dork and take his pointy hat! :smallbiggrin:

Yuki Akuma
2007-10-01, 12:00 PM
Not every front-line combatent is a Fighter. Many are Barbarians, Rangers, Knights and Rogues.

The Fighter does represent an offensive combatent. If you want defense, play a different class?

Chronos
2007-10-01, 12:08 PM
There's already a perfectly good counter for Forcecage, that really is RAW. If you use the windowless cell version of Forcecage, then you can't do anything to the target, either (unless you used a Timestop to stick something nasty in there with him, but that's really a problem with Timestop, not Forcecage). Sure, it's useful for splitting up your opponents to take them on a few at a time, but it won't actually give you the victory. And if you use the Barred Cage version, so you can cast through the bars, well, a potion of Gaseous Form costs half as much as the material component for Forcecage.

Keld Denar
2007-10-01, 12:20 PM
I have 2 words for your snazzy teleport fighter

Anticipate Teleport

3rd level spell, anyone who teleports within 5ft/level of you gets "trapped in the aether" for 1 round. You know where and when they will appear. Duration of 24 hours. NO wizard of higher than 8th level should ever NOT have this up. It's STUPID not too. It gives your whole party a round to reposition, buff if needed, and ready actions to shred the unlucky fellow whos gonna be dead before he fully materializes. And that's only the level 3 version. Greater Anticipate Teleport gives you three (3) rounds!!!!! Even if you have nothing better to do, you can still tap your foot impatiently while the rest of your party does whatever.

This spell makes encounters with phase spiders, ethereal marauders, manifesting ghosts, and anything else that uses extra planar travel to get a surprise ambush on the party.

Stupid good. Amazingly and obscenely good. Don't leave home without it.

KoDT69
2007-10-01, 12:25 PM
Not every front-line combatent is a Fighter. Many are Barbarians, Rangers, Knights and Rogues.

The Fighter does represent an offensive combatent. If you want defense, play a different class?

I'm not going to argue this point too much. If ANY melee class has no defense, they will inherently suck. If you can do 300 damage a round but have only 30hp, a low AC, and no defensive moves in your reppertoire, you will bite the dirt quick. A fighter has many combat options and most require more than just "I hit it, then I hit it again". Any good leader will tell you, the best offense is a good defense. The fighter can use battlefield control, ranged combat, be a charge-monkey all in a short amount of time. Sure a Knight is more defensive, but that does not exclude a good defense from the fighter. If you really want a defensive melee guy, go with a dwarven defender, paladin, or a crusader. So really I'm saying that just because one class is better at something doesn't mean a different class can't fill that role to some degree.


Potion of Gaseous Form FTW!

Draz74
2007-10-01, 12:29 PM
I have one thing to say to the original idea of this thread:

YAY FOR UMD USERS!

The party Rogue is very very happy that these "monk-buffing" items are showing up. Now he can pretend to be a lawful monk using Use Magic Device, and bing! he's got full BAB and +6 Strength! The Warlock too!

And if you think that's bad, try it with classes that are already way more powerful than the rogue or warlock and have UMD, like the Artificer!

Ooof. That hurt just to imagine. (Of course, since artificers go around crafting items all the time -- custom items, if they can get away with it -- DMs allowing Artificers already should know that they're going to have to make sure not to let any too-good custom items get made.)

KoDT69
2007-10-01, 12:36 PM
I have 2 words for your snazzy teleport fighter

Anticipate Teleport

And that trick will only work once. Once a good fighter is duped that way he'll be ready the next time. Since it's non-core I can't check right now, but I'm willing to bet that it doesn't prevent the affected creature from acting for that round in the aether, so the fighter can chug his potion of gaseous form while waiting, or likewise just teleport again someplace else! :smalleek:

Yuki Akuma
2007-10-01, 12:43 PM
You can't act while teleporting. If you end up taking two rounds to teleport somewhere, well, too bad, you've wasted a round.

Guess what? This is from the Anticipate Teleport spell description.

KoDT69
2007-10-01, 01:06 PM
I dont get why every time someone suggests an improvement to fighters someone else will say something like "well if a wizard does this they can still win!"

I don't know why they do, but it's inevitable. There are an unlimited number of ways for the wizard to win because WotC can't help themselves. They print more and more spells at every given opportunity. WE GET IT. Please stop rubbing every spell in existance into the face of our fighter option in question.


You can't act while teleporting. If you end up taking two rounds to teleport somewhere, well, too bad, you've wasted a round.

Guess what? This is from the Anticipate Teleport spell description.

And as stated, NON-CORE and I don't have the description. Please include a description (even a brief one covering all major points) of anything not included in the SRD if you plan to use it as any proof/evidence in a debate.

Besides, arguing that the wizard wins is not only against the spirit of this thread, it's kind of redundant. People do it every time a fighter is mentioned... :smallfurious:

Yuki Akuma
2007-10-01, 01:14 PM
Besides, arguing that the wizard wins is not only against the spirit of this thread, it's kind of redundant. People do it every time a fighter is mentioned... :smallfurious:

That's because, every time someone posts a thread about 'fixing' the Fighter, it's because they heard that Wizards are more powerful than them.

KoDT69
2007-10-01, 01:19 PM
Yah, I guess you're right there. Maybe this thread should be more of a Spell vs. Counter-measure. There is always a way to counter any tactic. You just gotta be patient and open-minded enough to see it.