Build help level 3-5 rogue, wbl and feats.

[bean illus]

The game is pbp here on gitp. It's a nostalgia crawl with limited books. No exceptions.

Player's Handbook
Dungeon Master's Guide
Complete Adventurer
Complete Arcane
Complete Champion
Complete Divine
Complete Mage
Complete Scoundrel
Complete Warrior
Eldritch Sorcery (Necromancer Games)
Arms and Equipment Guide

Starting at 3rd, running to 5th, possibly more modules after. Minimum to zero cheese.

My build is simple. Swift Ambusher
Rogue 2, fighter 1, scout 3, cleric 1, rogue +
Maxing perception, stealth, etc, but with only moderate to minimal social skills ranks.

Human
8 16 14 , 14 14 12
The bold ones I'm sure of, the others less so.

H, quick reconnoiter
1, improved initiative
2, fighter, weapon finesse
3, twf

Obviously I'm wanting to minimize my own exposure during surprise rounds. The weapon and hit point upgrade are nice, but if I could find a better way to get those feats by 3rd level, i would say yes.

I might think of more things I need help on as I go along, but mostly I think I'm looking for help spending my wbl of 2,700 GP.
I'll mention that umd wand use is in play. I'd love to carry around one perfect little rogue-ish wand. This might be a wasted investment in skill points, as it won't be much use till the next module.

I'm building the sheet here.
https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1871931

[Zaq]

Swift Ambusher is challenging because it's hard to get both sneak attack and skirmish at the same time without being invisible. What's your intended/preferred method of qualifying for sneak attack? Flanking (who's your buddy, and how sure are you that you can move into a flanking spot reliably?), hiding (do you have a way to re-hide once the battle has started and you've revealed yourself with your first attack?), proactively inflicting flat-footedness (how?), something else? I imagine that the answer to that question is going to drive a way the majority of your build resources are spent.

Might consider moving TWF later in the build if you're getting 3 levels of scout before cleric. Cleric is for Travel Devotion, right? It'll be hard/impossible for you to use TWF at the same time as skirmish until you get a way to move and full attack.

I'm not sure how best to spend your gold. When you say "one perfect little rogue-ish wand," what do you mean? Something that helps you hide? Helps you get into places you shouldn't be? Helps you stay alive against all odds? Helps you attack? Helps you do rogue-style things you didn't spend skill points on? We can probably find an answer for any one of those (or at least most any one of those), but not for all of them with that budget.

[skunk3]

You might also want to consider Shadowdancer for HIPS once you hit level 7. Also worthy of consideration is Assassin/Avenger if you want death attacks, poison use, etc.

As far as wealth goes, I'd keep it simple for now since you don't have that much money. Definitely get masterwork lockpicks. I'd probably stick with leather or studded leather armor for now and simple, cheap weapons because you don't really have much gold to throw around. Just get your bases covered and save the rest of your wealth until you can start really investing.

I would also consider maybe not going with two weapon fighting because it is feat intensive to pull off well and it's also very expensive enchanting two separate weapons. TWF flavor-wise is awesome but in my experience it kinda sucks unless you build specifically for it. You will need your BAB to be as high as possible and if you're multiclassing a lot that can really hurt. If you insist upon TWF do it later on. You will definitely also want to take the Craven feat at some point, and possibly Darkstalker depending upon your character.

[bean illus]

That's all good advice, though it kinda sounded to me like what not to do, but didn't quite tell me what TO do.

So if I don't take twf till 6th, what to take early?

I'll try to ask the dm about saving money for later, or re-selling items. It sounds smart, until you realize we might never play past level 3-4.

I'm considering a +2 umd ring, 400gp. It would bring my bonus up to + 9, thereby reducing my chance of mishap to 10%, and 1/20 at 4th.
Of, course that's silly, unless i find a wand i want.

[Darrin]

I'm not sure I like Quick Reconnoiter all that much. You already get a free spot and listen check every round, how often do you think you'll need another check?

I also disagree about waiting to take TWF. If the game starts at 3rd, and you're only expected to play until 5th level... waiting until 6th doesn't make much sense. You've planned your built out to 7th/8th, but it sounds like you probably won't spend much time at those higher levels... so I'd say you want to focus your build on 3rd through 5th. Anything that happens after that is basically gravy.

{Note: This next paragraph is probably useless to you. You may want to ignore it entirely.}
So... with that in mind... I'm not sure I agree with Swift Ambusher. You can't get the feat until ECL 5 (Rogue 1/Scout 4), and once you get it... how long would you actually get to enjoy it? Also, even assuming you started Rogue 1/Scout 4, you don't get another sneak attack die until Rogue 1/Scout 4/Rogue +2, which is 2d6 SA and 2d6 skirmish. A Rogue 7 gets 4d6 SA, which is comparable. I guess with Improved Skirmish it's 2d6SA + 4d6 skirmish, but then you need Travel Devotion up and running, which is another level.
{/Note}

Anyway. Assuming this is a low-level game that doesn't get too far into the mid-levels...

Stats:
14, 16, 14, 14, 8, 12

My reasoning: You shouldn't be dumping Str on a TWF build, you need all of the damage bonus you can get. Str 14 gives you +2 Str damage on your primary attack and +1 Str on your offhand. With the fighter level, you can wield a greatsword (or some other two-handed weapon) for +3 Str damage and use armor spikes as your offhand. Yes, I know, it doesn't *feel* like a rogue build that way, but numbers-wise the damage output is better. If you want to go for style... then Oversized TWF might be nice to pick up at 3rd.

I prefer Wisdom or Charisma as a dump stat on rogues, although Will saves become a huge weakness for you... but that kinda makes sense for a Rogue to have a weak Will save, it's at least part of the trope of being a rogue. Charisma is actually the better dump stat for Rogues, since they generally have more than enough skill points to make up for the penalty on social skills. You're welcome to disagree. Actually I'm kind of waffling on putting the 8 under Charisma... you can always buy more ranks in Bluff, but you can't put skill ranks towards your Will save.

Feats:

H, Improved Initiative. It's not absolutely required, but it's a decent feat, and you can take it at 1st level.
1, TWF. It has no BAB requirement, so you can start with it.
2, fighter, Weapon Finesse is ok here, although with the stats I recommend it's only giving you a +1 attack bonus over your 14 Str. However, Weapon Finesse is generally considered a "Rogue" feat (even though it has that stupid BAB +1 requirement). Presumably you're going to be buffing Dex (via spells/items) more than your Str.
3, hmmm.

I've been having trouble with your 3rd level feat, because I already told you I didn't like Quick Reconnoiter, and yet... I haven't quite found anything better to replace it. Well, ok, I did find something, but you may disagree:

Domain Affinity (Eldritch Sorcery). You can use this to pick up a domain ability like Travel, Celerity, Luck, or Magic. Actually I think I like the Magic domain ability best: you can activate spell-trigger and spell completion items as a 1st level wizard. This allows you to stock up on wands/scrolls without waiting until you can auto-succeed a DC 20 on UMD. And there are quite a few 1st-level wands that would be really useful to a rogue.

Another feat selection I'm also tempted to suggest:

H, Combat Reflexes
1, TWF
2, fighter, Weapon Focus Halberd
3, Spinning Halberd (Complete Warrior)

This gives you a two-handed weapon, offhand armor spikes, and a third attack with a -5 penalty. So you've got -2 primary/-2 offhand/-5 butt-end of the halberd (TWF penalty doesn't apply to this third attack because it's not a primary attack and not an offhand attack). However, this is probably not the direction you wanted to take the build.

Equipment... ok, 2700 GP. Several ideas here...

That's enough to get a +1 weapon and some masterwork armor... but not enough to buy two +1 weapons for a TWF build. So buying a magic weapon is probably not the best strategy.

You could get a chain shirt +1, two masterwork weapons, and (assuming you pick up the Magic domain) spend the rest on some consumables like wands/scrolls.

Or just go all masterwork chain shirt, masterwork weapons, and spend a little more on consumables/equipment. Kind of a toss-up whether the 1000 GP you could spend on a magical chain shirt is worth a 1st level wand, or 20 potions, or ... etc.

I was going to suggest putting together some basics from Shax's Haversack, but your list of available sourcebooks is kind of limited... I will need to put some more thought into equipment.

[skunk3]

I wouldn't recommend wasting your money on the +2 to UMD ring. First of all I've never heard of that ring and don't know how it's only 400 GP, but IMHO it's not really that useful and if the game does progress past level 5 you'll be selling it in no time. Sure, it's good for a temporary skill bump now but it will be virtually meaningless in no time.

At low levels like this I always make sure to have a backpack full of cheap and useful mundane items as well as a few alchemical ones. Alchemist's Fire and Acid Flasks are always handy to have at low levels. As far as mundane items go, you'll want the basics: rope, grappling hook, small steel mirror (useful for lots of things), some chalk, vials of oil, marbles, a glass cutter, caltrops, blank parchment and something to write with, flint and steel, a crowbar, etc. Of course most of this stuff is useless as you get higher in level but at low levels they are indispensable.

[Particle_Man]

You could go rogue/swashbuckler and take the feat that lets you get rogue sneak attack with the full bab and better hp of the swashbuckler levels. You could also work towards the tactical feat that lets you make bad guy a hit bad guy b in case you get pinned between them.

[Malphegor]

A wand of Blockade might be handy for a rogue. You'd be amazed at how often a 5ft wooden cube that weighs 2 tonne is the right solution to certain puzzles, plus it floats in water, allowing it to be a panic button to help you if you are at sea.

I'm going to second Marbles. Marbles are like the spell grease- make a check every turn to stand up in that square. It's worth having your marbles in battle, because almost no monster puts points in Balance afaik. Enemies busy balancing are flat-footed. They lose their dex bonus to AC. That means they're viable to be sneak attacked whilst they try to maneuver around your marbles. Plus it's in the junior woodchuck guidebook!