Homebrew skill system modification idea: Weighted skill ranks?

[Ellrin]

Reading another thread, I was suddenly struck by an idea for a homebrew modification to the skill system. Now, it's 3:30 in the morning for me, so this may be stupid, but whatever, I'm gonna post it anyway, you're not the boss of me.

One of the most common issues with the skill system is granularity. Too many skills that may be commonly tied together (e.g., spot and listen), and your skill points feel undervalued, forcing even highly skilled classes to specialize. If you start lumping too many functions into the same skill (e.g. perception), and not only do you lose a certain level of accurate mechanical representation, but you also end up with some weird side effects like invisibility potentially making it harder to be heard.

So what if, instead of reducing granularity, we increase the number of skill points every class gets, but make certain skills cost more per rank than others? Or perhaps offer a discount in skill points required to increase rank if you're investing points in a "related" skill? Now, I'm not really sure offhand what skills should be worth more than others or how exactly to weight them; like I said, nearly 3:40 AM and I just thought of this like ten minutes ago. I'm also not sure how this would work for balance, though I can't imagine it being a major issue except for maybe making some combinations of prestige classes easier/possible that might not have been before.

It seems so obvious that I'd be surprised if anyone hadn't thought of something like that before, though. Has it been discussed before? Are there any major disadvantages other than a little extra bookkeeping? Or balance problems?

[Biggus]

It's not an uncommon houserule to give classes more skill points; often once even a high-skill-point class has taken all their "essential" skills they have few if any points left to customise their character with, leading to a tendency for most members of a given class to look very similar.

As for what skills should be related to other skills, the skill synergy table seems like a good place to start. Presumably the related-skill price changes would replace the synergy mechanic?

The whole skills costing different amounts/ making other skills cheaper thing sounds like it has the potential to get quite messy and complex though, I'm not sure if the advantages would outweigh the downsides.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You could try creating graphs of related skills, and then providing synergy bonuses and skill point discounts/cap increases based on distance.

For example, Spot is one hop away from Search, Sense Motive, and Listen. Search is one hop away from Disable Device, Decipher Script, and Survival. I have 5 HD, and Spot is a class skill for me, so I buy maximum ranks in it (+8). Search is not a class skill, but I can buy an extra rank in it because it's next to a class skill, and I get a +2 synergy bonus, so I have +7. Survival is not a class skill, but I do get a synergy bonus from Search (thanks to the extra maximum rank), so it's at +6. And so on.

[radthemad4]

My favorite skill hack is Skill Groups (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=56277) which tackles the problem you mentioned, though it takes a different approach. It sorts the skills into groups, e.g. Perception has Spot, Listen, Hide, Move Silently and Skulduggery has Sleight of Hand, Use Rope, Open Lock, Disable Device, Bluff, Disguise but does not consolidate or merge them.

Every class gets a number of ranks (equal to their normal skill ranks per level divided by 2) to spend on skills in each group separately, so ranks in Appraise or Profession (Civilization group) don't cost you ranks in Spot or Listen (Perception group). Int bonuses grant bonus ranks into any skill, and Int penalties reduce the total number of points overall (so you get less points in some groups).

I like how it forces a little versatility onto characters.


D&D has a lot of ****ing skills. And those range from the absolutely bull**** game breaking such as Diplomacy and UMD, to the essential such as Spot, Listen, Spellcraft, to the absolutely ****ing worthless such as Craft, Forgery, and Appraise. To be precise, it has 36 ****ing skills even before getting into things like Knowledge and Craft being 10 different skills, or Autohypnosis. Meanwhile characters may have somewhere between 1 and maybe 10 skills they can put ranks in. Unsurprisingly, appraise is rarely even given the time of day.

So this system 1) Gives people more skills. 2) Gives them skills distributed across different groups, so that the main change isn't that people that already had Spot and Listen add Spellcraft to their list.

You should probably use something like the Pathfinder, Class skills get +3 ranks at level 1, and non class skills have a cap equal to Character Level, but everything is one for one, because people are probably going to be putting a lot of ranks into non class skills. Or you could plausibly give everyone all skills as class skills, though it might make the results more samey.

Level 1 Skills

At level 1 you either get four times the number to put into each skill group like you always would as a 3.5 character, or you get a +3 training bonus to each skill you train at level 1. Adjust skill prereqs for classes if you do so.

Class skills

You should just assume that everyone has the same class skills, but that you either don't get the +3 training in things that are not class skills but can have the same ranks and cost the same, or you can have the non class skills have a cap three less than the class skills, and cost the same.

Skills on level up

The first thing to do is half their class based skill points, so Rogues go from 8 to 4, Bards from 6 to 3, Druids from 4 to 2, and Wizards drop to 1. This new number is then the number of skill ranks to get on level up in every single skill group.

After you have made your choices based on skill group, you then move on to Int based skill points, which are flexible across skill groups. If you have an Int penalty, find one or more skills you just put ranks in, and get rid of that(those) rank(s). If you have an Int bonus, you can assign those skill points to any skills, ignoring the skill groups.

This makes int penalties much less penalizing, because if the main disadvantage to having an Int of 6 is that you don't have any ranks in appraise or Craft or survival, you are going to care very little. On the other hand, Int bonuses remain important, because very few people can get ranks in Listen, Spot, and Spellcraft without an Int bonus.

The skill groups are as follows:

Perception:
Hide, MS, Spot, Listen, Spellcraft, Search, Sense Motive

Knowledge:
All knowledge skills, taken individually.

Skulduggery:
Sleight of Hand, Use Rope, Open Lock, Disable Device, Bluff, Disguise

Interaction:
Sense Motive, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Heal, Intimidate, Speak Language

Physical Fitness:
Balance, Concentration, Climb, Escape Artist, Jump, Ride, Tumble, Swim

Wilderness:
Handle Animal, Survival, Ride, Swim, Climb, Jump, Heal

Civilization:
Appraise, Craft (all skills taken individually), Decipher Script, Forgery, Perform (However you want to use Perform), Profession (all skills taken individually)

Not a skill group: UMD.

That's right, if you want UMD, better spend a precious Int bonus point on it.

Sample Characters

Wizard the Wizard

He is a filthy Grey Elf Wizard with an 20 Int at level 1, I apply retroactive skill points because I don't feel like doing math. At level 8 he has an Int of 22 inherent. Assuming you still care about class skills, but use a pathfinderish system he has the following ranks:

Spellcraft 11, Knowledge Arcana 11, Disguise 8, Speaks either 5 or 8 additional languages, Concentration 11, Ride 8, Craft (Alchemy) 11

One from each skillgroup.

Then, From his Int Bonus: Knowledge Religion 11, Knowledge Planes 11, Knowledge Nature 11, Knowledge Dungeoneering 11, Spot 8, Listen 8

Druid the Druid

He is an Anthopomorphic Bat Druid, or something else, it doesn't matter. He has an Int of 14, because he doesn't care about Str or Dex, because he is a Druid. He probably also has a Cha of 14, because again, why not, so he is more prone to Cha based checks than Mr. Wizard. He is level 10.

Assuming Pathfinderish system, he has ranks from class of:

Spot 13, Listen 13, Knowledge Nature 13, Knowledge Geography 10, Disguise 10, Bluff 10, Diplomacy 13, Sense Motive 10, Concentration 13, Escape Artist 10, Handle Animal 13, Survival 13, Craft Arms and Armor 13 (two different skills)

Then from Int: Spellcraft 13, MS 10.

Rogue the Rogue

He is a rogue, so he doesn't really have a lot in the way of spare points to put in Int, but he makes room for a 14, because ****ing UMD and Spellcraft bby. He is level 15 because why not.

Perception: Hide 18, MS 18, Spot 18, Search 18
Knowledge: Local 18, History 15, Architecture 10, Planes 15, Arcana 5
Skulduggery: Disguise 18, Bluff 18, Disable Device 18, Sleight of Hand 18
Interaction: Gather Information 18, Diplomacy 18, Sense Motive 18, and All The Languages.
Physical Fitness: Escape Artist 18, Tumble 18, Balance 18, Climb 18
Wilderness: Ride 15, Swim 18, Survival 15, Handle Animal 15
Civilization: Appraise 18, Forgery 18, Decipher Script 18, Craft Traps 18
From Int: Spellcraft 15, UMD 18