What would you expect from a master sword-wielder in a D&D 5e world?

[Unoriginal]

I was in the process of writing something about D&D 5e combat, and couple of questions on which I wanted to hear this forum's opinions came to me:

1) If a NPC was described as a master sword-wielder, in the context of D&D 5e's rules and lore, what would you expect them to be capable of doing?

2) What would you think a PC should be able of doing to be accurately (aka no "charlatan pretends to be the greatest swordsman in the world" situation) qualified of "master sword-wielder" ?


I know those questions, as well as what constitutes being a "master", are pretty vaste and subjective, but that's exactly why I'd like to know what you think.

However, I have three requests, as I'd really wish this thread to not be derailed in those paths:

-This is not a thread about any caster-martial divide. Please refrain from comments of the type "any caster can just fry/mind-control/tanks the attacks of even the best sword user anyway".

-This is a thread about sword-users in the context of 5e. Bringing up other games/editions is fine, but please don't make them the topic of the discussion (especially with comments like "honestly 5e does it badly, in X you can play an actual master fencer who be faster than a speeding bullet and leap above tall buildings").

-Houserules are great for each individual person's table, but please don't make the topic about how X rule or Y item needs to be changed in order to make a "proper" master sword-user. Homebrewed NPCs or the like are more than fine, though.

Obviously I can't and won't try to enforce those requests, but I won't respond to those topics, and it'd be neat to avoid the discussion becoming about those topics, as it often happens on this subforum.

I sincerely apologize if I sounds demanding, that is certainly not my intent.

Thank you very much, folks.

[J-H]

I would expect them to be good at retaining their own weapon; to strike swiftly and frequently; to be able to disarm lesser opponents; and to hit exactly what they target (crits/called shots).

In 5e terms I would build a Battlemaster fighter.... lots of attacks, strength saves against disarms, a higher crit rate, and several "trick" maneuvers including disarm.

[Unoriginal]

I would expect them to be good at retaining their own weapon; to strike swiftly and frequently; to be able to disarm lesser opponents; and to hit exactly what they target (crits/called shots).

In 5e terms I would build a Battlemaster fighter.... lots of attacks, strength saves against disarms, a higher crit rate, and several "trick" maneuvers including disarm.

As far as PC options go, would you consider a Swashbuckler Rogue to qualify? They can't attack a lot, but they can defend well and do massive damage as duelists.

[Maan]

I would expect them to be good at retaining their own weapon; to strike swiftly and frequently; to be able to disarm lesser opponents; and to hit exactly what they target (crits/called shots).

In 5e terms I would build a Battlemaster fighter.... lots of attacks, strength saves against disarms, a higher crit rate, and several "trick" maneuvers including disarm.
I concur.
Fighter has the most attacks of any other martial class and it makes me think of an unmatched mastery of weapons.
And about subclasses, I think Battlemaster is the one that is focused on the "study of the art of war", including mastery of weapon techniques.
Champion could come close, but to me that feels more like the stereotypical hero of legend, based more on heroic physical prowess.

[LuccMa]

The "Blade Mastery" Feat would be a great addition to everyone who calls themselves a Sword Master. Hitting more reliable, being able to parry (an NPC would get the "Parry" reaction) and using opportunities instinctivly (advantage on AoO).

When i think of a Sword Master i somehow dont see a fighter in heavy armor and a shield. I see quick and accurate movements. Level 5 Battle Master + Level X Swashbuckler with the Blade Mastery feat would be my take.

[RSP]

I’d go Battlemaster fighter (at least level 5), with the Defensive Dualist Feat. A level of Rogue for Athletics expertise and the added Sneak Attack damage (or 3 levels for Swashbuckler as already suggested).

So a level 9 character (BM 6/Swash 3) would be a good starting point for a master swordsman. I associate longsword more with a master swordsman rather than rapier, for whatever reason, so I’d give them a longsword and just handwaive that it counts as finesse for them and their abilities.

[J-H]

Swashbuckler is good for a duel, but when I think "Master swordsman," I often picture the guy who's fighting four enemy soldiers at once and winning because he's so good. The swashbuckler is not that guy. Also, it typically goes along with being able to pick up any weapon and fight like an expert with it, including archery... Musashi with his oar, and a number of Korean drama figures who just happen to use whatever's around ("ID Tag Kung Fu"). I'm going to stick with fighter for a master swordsman.

A master duelist? Yes, swashbuckler's a good choice - especially if he's a semi-professional duelist (for a payment, he'll provoke someone to a duel, and then kill that person).

[Wuzza]

I’d go Battlemaster fighter (at least level 5), with the Defensive Dualist Feat. A level of Rogue for Athletics expertise and the added Sneak Attack damage (or 3 levels for Swashbuckler as already suggested).


Amusingly that's exactly what I came up with for my next character build. Erryl Flynnson, fastest blade in all the realm. (Rapier) :smallbiggrin:

[Naanomi]

There is more than one way to be a ‘master swordsman’... some version of battle-master, Kensai, Swashbuckler, maybe even Blade-Bard would probably fit the bill. Sounds like a pretty decent party actually, ‘the four swordmasters’

[LibraryOgre]

They should, of course, be talented with insults, both pithy and rhyming. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7a4HF3dIcuo)

[Bjarkmundur]

I agree, disarm, trip and parry feel like the signature moves of a master swordsman.

That and the "I can beat you with me sword still in its scabbard"

[Tanarii]

You are using Bonetti’s Defense against me, ah?

I thought it fitting considering the rocky terrain.

Naturally, you must suspect me to attack with Capa Ferro?

Naturally, but I find that Thibault cancels out Capa Ferro. Don’t you?

Unless the enemy has studied his Agrippa… which I have.

[Shuruke]

I think master swordsman will change based off of which culture your looking at it from

It also depends on what tier of a sword master you want

One where stories are told across land would be equivalent of level 15-20

One renowned in a kingdom that serves a king would just use champion npc stat block

Stat wise
A master swordsman is anyone who can make multiple attacks with the attack action

Be both capable of fighting one on one or against multiple enemies

Be mostly resources or get resources back quickly

Fit theatrics of being a blade master for theme your going for. Someone who has trained hard and fights harder.
Whether it be studying it as a martial art or being able to go on a full out assault with hard hitting attacks that wear down any foe


I made a blade master a while ago
Only got to level 9 but I went for the eccentric master trope.
Effortlessly fought while doing things like tossing blades in air or tying an arm behind his back when going into a dangerous situation.

Fighter 5 samurai and rogue 4 inquisitive for insightful fighting
Liked the loom through defenses aspect . was dual wielder of short swords but only used two one serious
Ie would draw it action surge do 4 attacks and bonus action for 5 all at advantage from samurai and had elven accuracy. He would then drop his extra weapon and be like "Woops got little to serious."

[Yakk]

only used two one serious
did you mean "only used two when serious"?

[MountainTiger]

"Swordmaster" as an archetype to me is about dueling with one handed swords (though the fighters may sometimes use a two-handed grip, particularly in a Japanese inspired setting). They tend to appear in groups; at a minimum, I expect a pair of rivals or a trio of teacher-student-rival (in the trio's case, being the teacher is bad for one's health). They're capable of doing massive damage with single strikes (mechanically, critical hits and sneak attack dice are good fits), of attacks that do more than just damage (Battlemaster maneuvers), and of using their blade for defense.

I like both Swashbuckler and Battlemaster as the chassis, but I would also suggest that Champion can do a lot: more criticals, two fighting styles so he can swap grips depending on the situation, and plenty of ASIs to pick up Feats.

Some less obvious feats than Defensive Duelist and Martial Adept that I would consider:

Alert for the swordsman who excels at springing into action.

Athlete and Mobile for one who is always maneuvering to find the best position.

Lucky for one who has an uncanny knack for landing or avoiding the decisive blow.

Savage Attacker has weird flavor but a good mechanic for landing strong single strikes.

I wish they had called Weapon Master something else and made a Weapon Master feat that makes you better than proficiency alone.

[Sparky McDibben]

I know I'm going to get crap for this, but I would expect a heron-mark blade.

[Unoriginal]

The Champion NPC statblock wears plate armor, has 143 HPs on average, a Second Wind, 20 in STR, and three +9 attacks per turn with their Greatsword, which with they deal increased damage if they're above 71 HPs.

Would that fit the "Swordsmaster" mold to you, or do you think they'd need to be able of more weapon-based tricks to qualify?

[RSP]

The Champion NPC statblock wears plate armor, has 143 HPs on average, a Second Wind, 20 in STR, and three +9 attacks per turn with their Greatsword, which with they deal increased damage if they're above 71 HPs.

Would that fit the "Swordsmaster" mold to you, or do you think they'd need to be able of more weapon-based tricks to qualify?

Just doing damage doesn’t fit the bill, for me personally. A swordsmaster needs some sort of parry, shoves/trips, disarms, to get the feel of being a “swordsmaster.” Any enemy can attack and do damage, you want that extra stuff.

[MountainTiger]

The Champion NPC statblock wears plate armor, has 143 HPs on average, a Second Wind, 20 in STR, and three +9 attacks per turn with their Greatsword, which with they deal increased damage if they're above 71 HPs.

Would that fit the "Swordsmaster" mold to you, or do you think they'd need to be able of more weapon-based tricks to qualify?

It's a fine chassis, but I would at least want a parry. Maybe let it do something like a Maneuver once per turn?

[Unoriginal]

Just doing damage doesn’t fit the bill, for me personally. A swordsmaster needs some sort of parry, shoves/trips, disarms, to get the feel of being a “swordsmaster.” Any enemy can attack and do damage, you want that extra stuff.


It's a fine chassis, but I would at least want a parry. Maybe let it do something like a Maneuver once per turn?

Fair enough. Though to be 100% fair, shoves as well as grapples are covered by STR (Athletics) checks (to which the Champion has +9), and Disarms (if one uses the DMG rules) are Attack vs STR (Athletics) (IIRC).

A Champion NPC statblock with a longsword, shield and Parry would be pretty terrifying.

[Shuruke]

did you mean "only used two when serious"?

Yeah on mobile and auto correct hates me

[Shuruke]

Fair enough. Though to be 100% fair, shoves as well as grapples are covered by STR (Athletics) checks (to which the Champion has +9), and Disarms (if one uses the DMG rules) are Attack vs STR (Athletics) (IIRC).

A Champion NPC statblock with a longsword, shield and Parry would be pretty terrifying.

Also using champion as a basis u could give it legendary reactions for things like parry, riposte, or other technique like things

U could also reflavor the a.c. with plate as theatrically being them swiftly defending with their weapon. Like the anime tripe where swordsman knock away tons of blows but instead itd just be their constant a.c

Had a player who did a colledge of swords bard reflavor the extra a.c from mage armor as magically enhanced reflexes. (Used magic intiate sorcerer to get it)

[PhoenixPhyre]

When I think of a swordsman (specifically, where the fact that it's a sword specifically is important), I think mainly of the Dashing Duelist archetype. Errol Flynn, Princess Bride, 3 Musketeers. Precise footwork and strikes (not necessarily more attacks, but each one counts), nimble movement, light or no armor. This is the Swashbuckler rogue to a T, maybe with a little Fighter thrown in (or the Martial Adept feat) for some maneuvers.

When I think of a weapon-master, a master combatant more generally, I think of much more the Champion (NPC) archetype. Heavy armor, either a weapon + shield or a 2H weapon. Able to face down a crowd of attacks. Parry, disarm, sweeping strikes. Definitely Fighter at the core, with GWM (for the cleave) or Shield Master or Battlemaster maneuvers.

One dances around the battlefield, fluid and nimble, while the other is the steel wall against which the tide of bodies breaks. One is like to make clever quips and swing from chandeliers (or other flashy maneuvers), while the other is terse, stoic, and only moves just as much as necessary.

[Unoriginal]

I note no one mentioned Barbarians or Barbarian-like enemies as potential swordmaster chasis. It's not surprising, though, as being good with a weapon isn't the primary trope that comes to mind about them.


What about the Cavalier Fighter? Being able to force people to focus on you or suffer is a pretty neat combat trick.

[Tanarii]

I note no one mentioned Barbarians or Barbarian-like enemies as potential swordmaster chasis. It's not surprising, though, as being good with a weapon isn't the primary trope that comes to mind about them.

Fafhrd and Conan are probably too old to inspire all these younguns ... :smallamused:

Of course, there's always the Bloody Nine.

All of them would be ridiculous Str, very high Dex (not quite rogue level but far higher than average), and deadly fast with a large & heavy blade. Plus of course Rage. Or frenzy for the bloody nine. Definitely swordsman.

Although as my quotes in my first post show, I definitely think of swashbucklers / fencing first. Followed closely by Samurai.

[KorvinStarmast]

Just doing damage doesn’t fit the bill, for me personally. A swordsmaster needs some sort of parry, shoves/trips, disarms, to get the feel of being a “swordsmaster.” Any enemy can attack and do damage, you want that extra stuff. Try the NPC Gladiator, but swap out spear and swap in longsword. You could take the shield bash and make it into a trip/shove/something, and it already has parry.

[MountainTiger]

Fafhrd and Conan are probably too old to inspire all these younguns ... :smallamused:

Of course, there's always the Bloody Nine.

All of them would be ridiculous Str, very high Dex (not quite rogue level but far higher than average), and deadly fast with a large & heavy blade. Plus of course Rage. Or frenzy for the bloody nine. Definitely swordsman.

Although as my quotes in my first post show, I definitely think of swashbucklers / fencing first. Followed closely by Samurai.

Conan is mainly a Fighter, he just took a Barbarian dip to be able to use Ahnold's pecs as armor :smalltongue:

[JoeJ]

Conan is mainly a Fighter, he just took a Barbarian dip to be able to use Ahnold's pecs as armor :smalltongue:

Conan is a barbarian in the same way that Miko Miyazaki is a samurai. :smallbiggrin:

[Tanarii]

Conan is mainly a Fighter, he just took a Barbarian dip to be able to use Ahnold's pecs as armor :smalltongue:
Not totally up to speed on the books, but what in them indicates he must be a Fighter instead of a Barbarian?

[JoeJ]

Not totally up to speed on the books, but what in them indicates he must be a Fighter instead of a Barbarian?

The lack of rage, for one thing.

[Unoriginal]

Not totally up to speed on the books, but what in them indicates he must be a Fighter instead of a Barbarian?


The lack of rage, for one thing.

Always fighting with the most protective armor he can find, too. Including full plate.

Conan's best represented as a Fighter/Rogue. "Tower of the Elephant" shows him learning the ropes of being a rogue.

[Naanomi]

Always fighting with the most protective armor he can find, too. Including full plate.

Conan's best represented as a Fighter/Rogue. "Tower of the Elephant" shows him learning the ropes of being a rogue.
Varies a lot by place in the story, of course... and he is definitely a ‘sure, you rolled all 18s, whatever’ kind of character at most points

[Unoriginal]

Varies a lot by place in the story, of course... and he is definitely a ‘sure, you rolled all 18s, whatever’ kind of character at most points

Well it's mostly if you look at the stories in chronological orders that you see his progression.

[Azgeroth]

so i would say that a swashbuckler is a master duellist, and a dex based BM Fighter is a master swordsman, both relying on their technique and precision, as opposed to raw strength.

[stoutstien]

are we talking about a master of a single sword or style or someone who can be considered a master of all sword work?

[Waazraath]

I was in the process of writing something about D&D 5e combat, and couple of questions on which I wanted to hear this forum's opinions came to me:

1) If a NPC was described as a master sword-wielder, in the context of D&D 5e's rules and lore, what would you expect them to be capable of doing?

2) What would you think a PC should be able of doing to be accurately (aka no "charlatan pretends to be the greatest swordsman in the world" situation) qualified of "master sword-wielder" ?


I know those questions, as well as what constitutes being a "master", are pretty vaste and subjective, but that's exactly why I'd like to know what you think.

[....]

Thank you very much, folks.

Three things.

First, a master sword-wielder should be good, that is, strong, able to defeat impressive foes with only his or her sword. "Master" implies some pretty impressive feats, suggest either facing a large number of weaker foes at the same time, or a big fat strong one. I'd say along the line of being able to defeat a score of weak enemies, a few strong ones (lets say three ogres) or one strong big one (a giant, young dragon, or medium devil or demon). In game terms, I'd say at least round level 10 - 12 to be a 'master'.

Second, he or she should be able to do the above with only swordplay. Obviously, a level 20 bladesinger wielding a rapier but torching 20 orcs with a meteor swarm isn't a master sword-wielder. And even when beating them with a sword and tensers transformation up, that's not good enough afaic. The char should be able to be impressive using only a sword.

Third, and this has been mentioned a lot by others, it should be able to do impressive tricks with the sword; disarming, parrying, at least. A master sword-wielder should be able to defend himself with a sword, block incoming hits, even hit arrows out of the air. This is imo the most difficult, due to 5e mechanics. And yes, these could be done narratively, without any specific mechanics (more on that later) but the best 'feel' would be if the master sword-wielder narrative would be supported by specific mechanics.

AC is almost exclusively dex and armor. Ok, there's the defense fighting style (but that's low level, only a flat +1) AC and no funky maneuver); there's the defensive duelist feat, which is something in line with what I would envision a master sword-wielder to be able to do (but that is only for finesse weapons, and I'd say a master sword-wielder wielding a huge zweihander should be able to exist); there's the dual wielder feat (but that's only for those wielding 2 weapons and only a flat +1 AC). Of course, there is also the battle master (parry) and the kensai (agileparry). Other classes / subclasses have it more difficult. Of course, one could describe the master sword-wielding rogue's uncanny dodge, or the barbarian's damage resistance and huge amount of HP as a function of its impressive swordplay - but that begs the question how this differs from that bow wielding rogue or axe-wielding barbarian, that can do exactly the same.

And that's only defense. For offense goes the same. One can narrate the spectacular maneuvers of a master sword-wielder, but without mechanics to back it up, one can wonder what the difference is with any similair character with another focus. Having actual maneuvers helps for the right feel. I'm not in the camp that thinks the champion fighter is boring, but I envision a battle master easier as a master sword-wielder. Best would be maneuvers specific for a fighting style and / or weapon. In that sense, older editions (like 3.x, but also earlier in combat an tactics splat books) made it easier. Though those had a lot of disadvantages as well.

More concrete:

for a player character, I'd envision something as:
- a level 11 greatsword wielding battle master fighter, with 3 attacks, GWM feat, and a number of appropriate maneuvers;
- a level 11 hunter ranger, wielding 2 scimitars and having the defensive duelist feat (and having additional tricks from its subclass)
- a level 12 kensai with a longsword, in a game where the DM allows optional rules on disarming etc.;

[Unoriginal]

are we talking about a master of a single sword or style or someone who can be considered a master of all sword work?

Would work for me.

[Max_Killjoy]

Agree with the above comment that a DEX-based Longsword (previous editions, "bastard sword") or Greatsword master should be more viable.


Thread ties into something I've been pondering, in wondering how a system would be able to capture the difference between, say, three characters all wielding the same weapon, none of them unskilled with it, but, one impeccably well-trained and experienced, one massively strong, and the other with lighting reaction time and speed -- and not give any one of them a total advantage in a fight with either of the other two.

[Mikal]

Meh gotta disagree with a swordmaster must be dexterous. Lancelot was the greatest swordsman of his time and stories, and he wore armor.

In the game of thrones chronology Arthur Dayne was considered one of the greatest swordsmen and knights, and he wielded (in the books) a greatsword and wore armor.

And even one of the best unarmored “dexterous” warriors such as Syrio Florel, while able to take out guardsmen, falls prey to a middling knight in armor (albeit with only a training blade which is broken)

So let’s hear it for the great knights in history, the wielders of heavy steel (arms and armor) and sex appeal!

A true swordmaster isn’t dependent on strength or agility, but pure skill, and wearing plate and wielding a sword with muscle over agility doesnt disqualify you as such.

[CTurbo]

You are using Bonetti’s Defense against me, ah?

I thought it fitting considering the rocky terrain.

Naturally, you must suspect me to attack with Capa Ferro?

Naturally, but I find that Thibault cancels out Capa Ferro. Don’t you?

Unless the enemy has studied his Agrippa… which I have.

I'm not left handed either! Hahaha

[CTurbo]

But yeah I would go Battle Master Fighter all the way with the Blade Master feat, and probably Sentinel too. May even use a Greatsword and grab GWM. Trip, disarm, riposte, and parry maneuvers