cavalier/forge cleric thoughts?

[stoutstien]

I don't get much table time other than behind screen but i do like coming up with fun character concepts and file them away for the hopeful day i get more ppl wanting to DM.
mountain dwarf cavalier 12/ forge cleric 8.
lv 1-5 fighter for all the standard goodies.
lv 6 take first lv in forge
lv 7-8 back to fighter for asi and warding maneuver
at his point i cant decide if i want to go fighter until 3 attack at 11 or start adding cleric levels for more slots and other cleric fun. spirt guardian is going to be a huge boost in dealing with hordes but 3rd attack can also means more marks and hold the line so i think this will depend on what i see more.


it would play like a cleric assigned to the Gutbusters. a frontline caster that is begging you to try to ignore them. prof in brewery, smith tools and the channel that forge means they are ready to patch up armor as well as wounds. it ends up with 6 ASI and a few slots less than a half caster but some cantrips to cover any holes in utility the party has.

has anyone tried a similar idea?

[Nhorianscum]

Non EK fighter is ride-or-die to 11 and you're pretty open after that.

That said 1 level cleric dips are always worth losing a level of progression. Guidance + bless is huge.

Fighter 5/cleric 1/fighter 11/whatever is pretty solid in any campaign going to 12+

[stoutstien]

Non EK fighter is ride-or-die to 11 and you're pretty open after that.

That said 1 level cleric dips are always worth losing a level of progression. Guidance + bless is huge.

Fighter 5/cleric 1/fighter 11/whatever is pretty solid in any campaign going to 12+

same thought progress. casting bless would free up the "real" casters concentration and make them an even richer target for enemies.

[CTurbo]

I think I'd either go Fighter 5, then take the next 8 levels in Cleric, then finish out Fighter from there

or

Go Fighter 1, Cleric 1, Fighter 4, Cleric 7, Fighter 7 so you get Bless and other Cleric goodies earlier.

Either way, I'd prefer to take all(or most) Cleric levels at once dividing all the Fighter levels in two lumps.

If you're really wanting Warding maneuver, I'd probably go Fighter 1, Cleric 1, Fighter 6, Cleric 7, Fighter 5

[stoutstien]

I've yet have a player who actually pick cavalier. The whole load out looks great but the 5ft range on a lot of it worries me

[Nhorianscum]

Cav has a semi-unique and effective lite tool box built in.

[Malifice]

I like Cavalier + Paladin personally.

Not only is it crazy thematic and fluffy, but they synergise well.

Paladin 2 or 6 or 11

Cavalier 7 or 11

Splashing levels in Valor bard (for that Warlord feel) works if you need more slots.

Probs Cav 9/ Pal 11.

Max Cha, Con and Str. Take Inspiring leader, Mounted combatant and Sentinel for feats.

[Willie the Duck]

I don't get much table time other than behind screen but i do like coming up with fun character concepts and file them away for the hopeful day i get more ppl wanting to DM.
mountain dwarf cavalier 12/ forge cleric 8.
lv 1-5 fighter for all the standard goodies.
lv 6 take first lv in forge
lv 7-8 back to fighter for asi and warding maneuver
at his point i cant decide if i want to go fighter until 3 attack at 11 or start adding cleric levels for more slots and other cleric fun. spirt guardian is going to be a huge boost in dealing with hordes but 3rd attack can also means more marks and hold the line so i think this will depend on what i see more.

has anyone tried a similar idea?


Non EK fighter is ride-or-die to 11 and you're pretty open after that.


I am inclined to agree with NHorianscum, from a mechanics perspective. If you're not going for 3+ attacks (at a reasonable level, justifying fighter is iffy. So go fighter or go home. A 1 level dip for guidance and a ranged cantrip on a high Str, med-high Wis, low Dex character makes all the sense in the world (frees up the ASI I'd otherwise be spending on Magic initiate). However, making a whole multiclass over it-- it seems like you end up spending all your cleric resources on keeping up with the fighter resources you are putting off (and thus not doing any real cleric-ing anyways).

Mind you, I really want this to work. Despite paladins existing, I want martial cleric to be a thing that works. I've toyed with EK/War Cleric, Battlemaster/War Cleric (so maximized chance to improve to-hit when needed for GWM or SS), even Hunter Ranger/Forge Cleric (A Blessed Rgr5/Clr1 with XBE and SS and a domain-granted +1 hand Xbow is the definition of a glass-cannon death-bringer). I just don't feel it works all that well (during the first 12 levels, as anything other than a 1-level dip).

[stoutstien]

I am inclined to agree with NHorianscum, from a mechanics perspective. If you're not going for 3+ attacks (at a reasonable level, justifying fighter is iffy. So go fighter or go home. A 1 level dip for guidance and a ranged cantrip on a high Str, med-high Wis, low Dex character makes all the sense in the world (frees up the ASI I'd otherwise be spending on Magic initiate). However, making a whole multiclass over it-- it seems like you end up spending all your cleric resources on keeping up with the fighter resources you are putting off (and thus not doing any real cleric-ing anyways).

Mind you, I really want this to work. Despite paladins existing, I want martial cleric to be a thing that works. I've toyed with EK/War Cleric, Battlemaster/War Cleric (so maximized chance to improve to-hit when needed for GWM or SS), even Hunter Ranger/Forge Cleric (A Blessed Rgr5/Clr1 with XBE and SS and a domain-granted +1 hand Xbow is the definition of a glass-cannon death-bringer). I just don't feel it works all that well (during the first 12 levels, as anything other than a 1-level dip).
Yea, I've yet to figure out why they just didn't give war cleric extra attack like Lord/sword and bladesinger.

[Willie the Duck]

Yea, I've yet to figure out why they just didn't give war cleric extra attack like Lord/sword and bladesinger.

Oh, I'm pretty sure I know why -- fear that the already martially decked-out cleric with multiple attacks would be a 3e CoDzilla repeat. I think the fears were unfounded*, mind you, but I get the presumed reasoning.
*Although, at exactly level 9, a battlemaster3/Cleric6 with two attacks from cleric would be a SS/GWM gawd with amazing spell support.

[stoutstien]

Oh, I'm pretty sure I know why -- fear that the already martially decked-out cleric with multiple attacks would be a 3e CoDzilla repeat. I think the fears were unfounded*, mind you, but I get the presumed reasoning.
*Although, at exactly level 9, a battlemaster3/Cleric6 with two attacks from cleric would be a SS/GWM gawd with amazing spell support.
So they trading it for ChAzilla 🤣. I see your point though. I am Trying to avoid battle master as a fighter base but it's hard to justify not taken it. Like I said I haven't seen a cavalier in action at all so for all I know it's a bad idea.

[Nhorianscum]

Ignoring all the sweet cav abilities for a moment. (they are good)

Bless boosted full attack makes any fighter base roughly equivilant to a BM blowing all of their manuver dice in one go.

[PeteNutButter]

Cavalier is one of the fighter subclasses that really is worth sticking to. It's level 18 feature is one of very few that just break the action economy. If you aren't going that far, the level 10 feature is great as well, picking great parts of sentinel + PAM and putting them together in one feature.

That being said if I were to build a Cavalier/Cleric, it'd probably be mostly fighter, with just a dip in cleric for cantrips, bless and healing word.

If I wanted to go a martial character with more cleric levels, I tend to prefer ranger over fighter. It takes a 13 dex, but otherwise plays very well together. You get extra attack at 5, and have basically no incentive to take more than 5 ranger levels. The upside is you have slots as if you had two more cleric levels! Bonus cheese if you take Life Cleric and combine it with Good Berry and Healing Spirit.

[Willie the Duck]

Bless boosted full attack makes any fighter base roughly equivilant to a BM blowing all of their manuver dice in one go.

Well, there are lots of instances where a few +1d8s and lots of +1d4s play out differently, but overall, they are both used in similar situations (use either against high-AC opponents, or against low/mid-AC opponents along with GWM/SS). However, Bless takes a (non-bonus) action. The decision on which fights to take the round to do this (by a front liner) is going to be a lot of careful weighing of pros and cons.

[Nhorianscum]

Well, there are lots of instances where a few +1d8s and lots of +1d4s play out differently, but overall, they are both used in similar situations (use either against high-AC opponents, or against low/mid-AC opponents along with GWM/SS). However, Bless takes a (non-bonus) action. The decision on which fights to take the round to do this (by a front liner) is going to be a lot of careful weighing of pros and cons.

Nah. 3 surges/day and 2-3 uses of bless until CL 15 plus makes this a pretty easy choice. See hard fight, bless turn 1.

With good magic items and a higher caster level it gets a bit more complex but if a spell isn't always worth OOC casting or turn one casting and uses an action why are we prepping it?

[Willie the Duck]

With good magic items and a higher caster level it gets a bit more complex but if a spell isn't always worth OOC casting or turn one casting and uses an action why are we prepping it?

It's not a question of whether it is good, or why we are prepping it. I simply don't see them as "roughly equivilant." A couple of +1d8s (eventually 10s and 12s) per short rest that require no action in and of themselves is a different beast than a +1d4 on all actions (including saves, to make it even more different) for a minute, gated by a turn one casting and concentration and recharging as a long-rest spell slot.

[stoutstien]

Cavalier is one of the fighter subclasses that really is worth sticking to. It's level 18 feature is one of very few that just break the action economy. If you aren't going that far, the level 10 feature is great as well, picking great parts of sentinel + PAM and putting them together in one feature.

That being said if I were to build a Cavalier/Cleric, it'd probably be mostly fighter, with just a dip in cleric for cantrips, bless and healing word.

If I wanted to go a martial character with more cleric levels, I tend to prefer ranger over fighter. It takes a 13 dex, but otherwise plays very well together. You get extra attack at 5, and have basically no incentive to take more than 5 ranger levels. The upside is you have slots as if you had two more cleric levels! Bonus cheese if you take Life Cleric and combine it with Good Berry and Healing Spirit.
I keep looking at the lv 18 feature and dream but 18 is a long haul until it comes online. It's strange that the Pam reaction is considered an AOO but sentinel's isn't. If that wasn't the case I wouldn't hesitate to go cavalier 18/cleric 2.

[Nhorianscum]

It's not a question of whether it is good, or why we are prepping it. I simply don't see them as "roughly equivilant." A couple of +1d8s (eventually 10s and 12s) per short rest that require no action in and of themselves is a different beast than a +1d4 on all actions (including saves, to make it even more different) for a minute, gated by a turn one casting and concentration and recharging as a long-rest spell slot.

I'm viewing this only as a 1d4 to attack rolls on 3 PC's vs 1dwhatever 5 times on the BM over 3 turns.

Other uses of spells/dice get Cray Cray but spells scale way better than dice over time so this is a whiteroom that favors BM dramatically.

Ignoring feats and assuming 2 are a is per PC before 11 (our main fighter progression) we're looking at 22.5 added to-hit on the BM 3day vs (assuming 2 rounds before concentration breaks) vs 30 2/day for cleric 1. This slightly favors BM but bless can go as high as 45/use if we hold for 3 rounds.

So assuming we bless turn 1 in deadly fights and spend dice hard in deadly fights we can assume that for the purpose of boosting party DPR bless = dice spam.

BM was chosen as a highly popular and effective fighter to compare to anyfighter+cleric 1.

--------------

Past 12th level I'm a fan of jumping the hell out of most fighters, capstones and 17's don't matter.

[stoutstien]

i just realized that the cavalier might be the best way to take advantage of the climb onto bigger creature rules. you are always close enough to cause disadvantage on attacks and the way hold the line is worded if they move you wack them and they are locked down again.