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View Full Version : Adamantine Weapons/Armor are (not) impossible.



Paragon Badger
2007-10-01, 04:23 AM
Adamantine has a hardness of 20 and HP for 40/per inch of thickness.

Fire damage is divided by half against objects.

Steel becomes forge-able at 1652° to 2012° Farenheit.


Mithral
Mithral is a very rare silvery, glistening metal that is lighter than iron but just as hard. When worked like steel, it becomes a wonderful material from which to create armor and is occasionally used for other items as well.

Mithral is essentially steel, no? -so steel has a hardness of 15.

Adamantine has a hardness of 20.... so it is 1.33x more resistent to heat than Mithral and/or steel.

Thus, temperature between 2197° and 2676° Farenheit is required to make Adamantine pliable.

Contact with lava (1,300 °F to 2,200 °F) deals 2d6 damage per round.

So you would need some source of heat that is STRONGER than lava if you just place it atop the source, (usually a fanned fire) like most forges.

Submersion in hot lava deals 20d6 damage per round. Okay, so we've found a way to superheat the adamantine to a temperature that makes it ripe for molding. Although this is a very big IF, since total submersion would most likely outright melt it, being about 10 times as damaging as mere contact with lava.

Okay, so EVEN if you got the coolest possible lava EVER (Also theoretically known as 20 natural ones in a row) that's still hot enough to make adamantine pliable and submerged the piece of admantine in the lava, it would equal, but not surpass hardness. Oh yeah, fire damage is halved. No, it woulden't even equal it. So you need 20 natural twos! ...Or some equivalent. Okay, it equals hardness. If that means its pliable or just a little warm, whatever...

20 natural 3s... Which will be the average damage/temperature = one round of submersion will make an inch-thick sheet of adamantine half-way damaged. Another round will make it totally destroyed. In most cases, melted.

20 natural 4s, melted in one round of submersion!

Now, how many of our adamantine blacksmiths would be lucky enough to find some source of lava that is JUST perfect for crafting this material?

Statistically, in thousands of years, it may just never happen. Also, forging takes hours. And spells like fireball do not leave flames, or any noticeble heat. Additionally, you would need to do at least 41 damage to even bypass hardness. If a wizard can keep constant 41+ flame damage on a piece of adamantine for HOURS, then maybe it's possible.

Or he could take a break every day to replenish his spells, which would take years, even decades, to forge ONE item. Plus, it would be a little hard to forge something while the epic level wizard next to you is throwing fireballs at your work.

Don't get me started on how profounding pathetic the Heat Metal spell would be in this case. 2d4 damage doesn't even come close to bypassing Hardness.

So, short of submerging the whole piece of adamantine into a perfect vat of lav-

No wait- you need tongs to put the piece of adamantine in... And the only thing that could withstand the heat of submersing in lava without melting instantly.... adamantine tongs! Now- How do you make the adamantine tongs?

Rachel Lorelei
2007-10-01, 04:30 AM
Now- How do you make the adamantine tongs?

How about magic?

Hecore
2007-10-01, 04:42 AM
Polymorph Any Object would allow you turn turn a roughly tong-sized chunk of adamantine into a permenant set of adamantine tongs. You'd have to start out with a chunk of adamantine to do this, as the spell can't create adamantine, but it should have no trouble simply morphing it.

Actually, as long as your chunk on adamantine is basically the same size as the item your trying to make it should be really easy to polymorph it into the correct form. Since adamantine counts as masterwork, this neatly wraps up how all adamantine items are created.

A wizard did it. :smallamused:

Paragon Badger
2007-10-01, 04:48 AM
Oh yeah...





That'll teach me to try and think at 4 AM!

Ulzgoroth
2007-10-01, 04:51 AM
While this is somewhat of a 'combat rules aren't fully compatible with life' argument, which I normally don't like...

Asserting that heating that does not inflict enough damage to bypass hardness does nothing whatsoever is absurd. If you're going to go calculating melting temperatures for things, I'll tell you that given time an object will thermally equilibrate with its surroundings.

Also, your equating heat with fire damage is a bit questionable.

Attilargh
2007-10-01, 05:01 AM
Clearly, all adamantium smiths dabble in planar real estate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#elementalPlaneOfFire).

Quietus
2007-10-01, 06:22 AM
Clearly they just use a method that involves contact with more lava than just "contact", but less than full immersion. Like, say, the 10d6 you get for a few rounds after full immersion - max of 60, /2 is 30. Just gotta find a way to give the sword-in-the-making fire resistance of 10 and you're good; The only time the sword WOULDN'T get hotter is if you rolled 10 1's, which wouldn't happen often.

Clearly, you'll need special gloves to do this - or, in the case of characters like my half-red-dragon smith, just be immune to fire.

Roderick_BR
2007-10-01, 06:38 AM
They use dwarven forges.:smalltongue:
Besides, Heat Metal doesn't deal damage to the armor, but to the guy wearing it :smallamused:
So, even if you can't make enough heat to melt it, it'll be still scorching hot the touch.

Citizen Joe
2007-10-01, 06:55 AM
First of all, I don't think that it is SOLID adamantine. It is an alloy. I know 3.0 had a copper(?)/adamantite alloy. I believe that there is a raw adamantite ore that can be added to iron ore that could then be poured into a mold to form the parts you want. Once these cool, and the metallic lattices form, then it becomes adamantine and has the huge hardness. So, making adamantine things isn't so much the problem as repairing them. Since it is unlikely to be able heat it up enough to reforge it.

Keld Denar
2007-10-01, 07:15 AM
Also of note, metals aren't worked at their melting point. This would be impractical. Most modern day forging (with a brake press, drop press, etc) is conducted at temperatures around 1/2 the melting temperature (900-1100 F for steel). (thanks wikipedia) If you actually brought the metal up to melting temperature, it would melt (*gasp*) and you'd need a ladle to handle it, and it would not be sword shaped.

Also, just because adamantine is harder (higher Young's Modulus) doesn't correlate to a direct increase in melting temperature.

sikyon
2007-10-01, 07:43 AM
Also of note, metals aren't worked at their melting point. This would be impractical. Most modern day forging (with a brake press, drop press, etc) is conducted at temperatures around 1/2 the melting temperature (900-1100 F for steel). (thanks wikipedia) If you actually brought the metal up to melting temperature, it would melt (*gasp*) and you'd need a ladle to handle it, and it would not be sword shaped.

Also, just because adamantine is harder (higher Young's Modulus) doesn't correlate to a direct increase in melting temperature.

Typically the metal is melted first, then poured into rods or ignots or whatever, and are then worked. Also, refining requires melting or electrolysis.

Apparently candles burn at 1,400 °C (2552 °F) (by thermal imaging). While obviously the total heat is not enough to melt steel...

blowtorches go 100 K below candles though. It's enough.

Edit: Also, force effects like wall of force are immune to damage. Predigestation can move small things, as can any number of telekentic abilities.

Citizen Joe
2007-10-01, 07:54 AM
Also, just because adamantine is harder (higher Young's Modulus) doesn't correlate to a direct increase in melting temperature.

Unfortunately, DND doesn't model that. It simply states that MOST items take double damage from fire. Of course it could be ignored by the concept that forging isn't about sudden shock damage from high temperature, but rather from prolonged lower level temperature. Likewise the rules state that SOME items are more vulnerable to certain energies, which ignores hardness and doubles damage. That puts it squarely in the DM interpretation category.

Still, just look at how long it would take to Mundanely craft an Adamantine weapon. Even the best crafters would take almost a year to craft ONE adamantine weapon. The cost/price/raw materials formulae combined with the time it takes make Adamantine stuff prohibitively expensive unless it is a commissioned work.

goat
2007-10-01, 12:20 PM
But when would adamantine equipment NOT be a commissioned work? Most people will never have enough money to buy something made of it, so there's not going to be much value in just having pieces lying around. If they only person who wants some Adamantine full-plate from you that year turns up, and it's a halfling, your suit of medium sized armour is going to be useless.

A large house costs in the region of 5000GP, an adamantine suit of full plate costs 16,500GP, and that's before you start magicking it up. There aren't going to be that many people searching for a suit at any one time.

Indon
2007-10-01, 12:23 PM
How do you make the adamantine tongs?

Carve them out of a block of adamantine with acid-energy substituted Scorching Rays.

Moogle0119
2007-10-01, 12:33 PM
The solution is simple as stated above already. Find a sizable chunk of Adamntine and cast Polymorph Object or even Fabricate might work.

Citizen Joe
2007-10-01, 12:42 PM
By commissioned I mean the normal sale price for an item is half list price. If it were a merchant, then you could buy it from them at full price. But a dedicated craftsman isn't going to have time to hock wares. So, when I say commissioned, I mean that you (the purchaser) goes to smith and ask for said item. The smith then says he'll make it for full price. You then say but if I make it, I could only sell it for half that. The smith then says "Look, Buddy... I'm busy here... I'm charging full price, take it or leave it."

If you were passing by the smithy and he said "Hey, I got some nice axeheads here, would you like some?"
You: "I don't really need any right now. How much?"
Smith: "Full price of course."
You: "WHAT!? Screw that... Why should I pay so much for something I'm not even gonna use?"
Smith: "You could sell them?"
You: "I could sell them at half price you mean."
Smith: "Ya, I guess you're right. I'll sell them to you for half price."
You: "OK, we got a deal."
*buys all the axeheads*
*woodsman walks up*
Woodsman: "Hey Smithy... I lost my axe down a well. Got any axeheads?"
Smith: "Sorry Bud, just sold the last of them to that guy."
You: "I could sell you one for full price."
Woodsman: "Screw that, you're some stranger... I'll give you half price."
You: "Look Buddy, I'm busy here, you want the axehead or no?"

So it is a lot of supply and demand. If you want something, you're at the mercy of the seller. If you want to sell something, you're at the mercy of the buyer.

Anyway... it's like 44 weeks to make a MW Adamantine weapon... MW Adamantine heavy armor would be about 4 years work, so yea... you better have that commission set in stone.

WhiteHarness
2007-10-01, 02:04 PM
Typically the metal is melted first, then poured into rods or ignots or whatever, and are then worked. Also, refining requires melting or electrolysis.


Not necessarily.

In the preindustrial age, iron wasn't fully melted and poured into ingots; it was made as "wrought iron."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrought_iron

Blast furnaces were unable to reach temperatures sufficient to melt it completely back then.

John Campbell
2007-10-01, 02:36 PM
Dubious rules interpretations aside, adamantine is extremely difficult and time-consuming to work, as examination of the applicable Craft rules will demonstrate.

This is why I fabricated my adamantine full plate. A lump of raw adamantine, a few rounds of casting, a couple of Craft (armorsmithing) checks, and it was good to go.

Archpaladin Zousha
2007-10-01, 04:06 PM
By commissioned I mean the normal sale price for an item is half list price. If it were a merchant, then you could buy it from them at full price. But a dedicated craftsman isn't going to have time to hock wares. So, when I say commissioned, I mean that you (the purchaser) goes to smith and ask for said item. The smith then says he'll make it for full price. You then say but if I make it, I could only sell it for half that. The smith then says "Look, Buddy... I'm busy here... I'm charging full price, take it or leave it."

If you were passing by the smithy and he said "Hey, I got some nice axeheads here, would you like some?"
You: "I don't really need any right now. How much?"
Smith: "Full price of course."
You: "WHAT!? Screw that... Why should I pay so much for something I'm not even gonna use?"
Smith: "You could sell them?"
You: "I could sell them at half price you mean."
Smith: "Ya, I guess you're right. I'll sell them to you for half price."
You: "OK, we got a deal."
*buys all the axeheads*
*woodsman walks up*
Woodsman: "Hey Smithy... I lost my axe down a well. Got any axeheads?"
Smith: "Sorry Bud, just sold the last of them to that guy."
You: "I could sell you one for full price."
Woodsman: "Screw that, you're some stranger... I'll give you half price."
You: "Look Buddy, I'm busy here, you want the axehead or no?"

So it is a lot of supply and demand. If you want something, you're at the mercy of the seller. If you want to sell something, you're at the mercy of the buyer.

Anyway... it's like 44 weeks to make a MW Adamantine weapon... MW Adamantine heavy armor would be about 4 years work, so yea... you better have that commission set in stone.

Wouldn't adamantine axeheads kind of be out of the price range of the average woodcutter?

Mewtarthio
2007-10-01, 04:24 PM
If you were passing by the smithy and he said "Hey, I got some nice axeheads here, would you like some?"
You: "I don't really need any right now. How much?"
Smith: "Full price of course."
You: "WHAT!? Screw that... Why should I pay so much for something I'm not even gonna use?"
Smith: "You could sell them?"
You: "I could sell them at half price you mean."
Smith: "Ya, I guess you're right. I'll sell them to you for half price."
You: "OK, we got a deal."
*buys all the axeheads*
*woodsman walks up*
Woodsman: "Hey Smithy... I lost my axe down a well. Got any axeheads?"
Smith: "Sorry Bud, just sold the last of them to that guy."
You: "I could sell you one for full price."
Woodsman: "Screw that, you're some stranger... I'll give you half price."
You: "Look Buddy, I'm busy here, you want the axehead or no?"

Er... Why would the smith sell anything to you? He knows that there are woodsmen out there who'll pay him more. You can haggle a bit, but he's going to be very unwilling to sell for less than what a woodsman will pay. Additionally, the woodsman wouldn't buy the expensive axes from you unless you were the cheapest/only source in town. Your example assumes that you somehow gain both a monopoly and a monopsony in axeheads: You start out as the only potential customer, and then you transform into the only potential supplier.

Indon
2007-10-01, 05:19 PM
The solution is simple as stated above already. Find a sizable chunk of Adamntine and cast Polymorph Object or even Fabricate might work.

Acid Substituted Scorching Ray would be _way_ easier to get than Polymorph Any Object (Probably Fabricate, too, as the ray's a level 2 spell).

Tor the Fallen
2007-10-01, 05:25 PM
Adamantine has a hardness of 20 and HP for 40/per inch of thickness.

Fire damage is divided by half against objects.

Steel becomes forge-able at 1652° to 2012° Farenheit.



Mithral is essentially steel, no? -so steel has a hardness of 15.

Adamantine has a hardness of 20.... so it is 1.33x more resistent to heat than Mithral and/or steel.

Thus, temperature between 2197° and 2676° Farenheit is required to make Adamantine pliable.

Contact with lava (1,300 °F to 2,200 °F) deals 2d6 damage per round.

So you would need some source of heat that is STRONGER than lava if you just place it atop the source, (usually a fanned fire) like most forges.

Submersion in hot lava deals 20d6 damage per round. Okay, so we've found a way to superheat the adamantine to a temperature that makes it ripe for molding. Although this is a very big IF, since total submersion would most likely outright melt it, being about 10 times as damaging as mere contact with lava.

Okay, so EVEN if you got the coolest possible lava EVER (Also theoretically known as 20 natural ones in a row) that's still hot enough to make adamantine pliable and submerged the piece of admantine in the lava, it would equal, but not surpass hardness. Oh yeah, fire damage is halved. No, it woulden't even equal it. So you need 20 natural twos! ...Or some equivalent. Okay, it equals hardness. If that means its pliable or just a little warm, whatever...

20 natural 3s... Which will be the average damage/temperature = one round of submersion will make an inch-thick sheet of adamantine half-way damaged. Another round will make it totally destroyed. In most cases, melted.

20 natural 4s, melted in one round of submersion!

Now, how many of our adamantine blacksmiths would be lucky enough to find some source of lava that is JUST perfect for crafting this material?

Statistically, in thousands of years, it may just never happen. Also, forging takes hours. And spells like fireball do not leave flames, or any noticeble heat. Additionally, you would need to do at least 41 damage to even bypass hardness. If a wizard can keep constant 41+ flame damage on a piece of adamantine for HOURS, then maybe it's possible.

Or he could take a break every day to replenish his spells, which would take years, even decades, to forge ONE item. Plus, it would be a little hard to forge something while the epic level wizard next to you is throwing fireballs at your work.

Don't get me started on how profounding pathetic the Heat Metal spell would be in this case. 2d4 damage doesn't even come close to bypassing Hardness.

So, short of submerging the whole piece of adamantine into a perfect vat of lav-

No wait- you need tongs to put the piece of adamantine in... And the only thing that could withstand the heat of submersing in lava without melting instantly.... adamantine tongs! Now- How do you make the adamantine tongs?

Well, that explains why the stuff costs so darn much.