How optimized is Power Point regeneration?

[gogogome]

In my 8 years of DMing I have never encountered a psionic PC before, nor have I even looked at any psionic book. But recent topics on the playground piqued my curiosity and i've been learning psionics.

So as I understand it, Psions are tier 2. Furthermore their gamebreaking potential is their action economy. There exists several loops stacking temporal acceleration, schism, fission, and synchronicity linked with synchronicity that allows a Psion to blow their entire PP reserve in one round. I attribute this optimization level behind the mailman since the mailman can last more than one encounter and still deal as much damage as this psion.

But power point regeneration. I attribute this trick behind DMM:Persistent Spell, and I was wondering if this was a correct analysis. My reasoning is that this trick does not increase a psion's direct fighting power. A fully rested psion is just as strong as a psion with power point regeneration and the only difference is endurance. One needs to rest after 4 encounters on average, the other can go all day, kind of like DMM:Persistent Spell with Mass Lesser Vigor. And if the campaign never throws more than 4 encounters in a day at the party, the entire advantage of power point regeneration is moot other than the potential to start an encounter pre-buffed, but psion's buffs are, well, less than ideal so even if a DMM:Persistent Spell cleric has fewer buffs at the start of the fight, their buffs are far more devastating than any number of psion's buffs like Righteous Wrath of the Faithful or Divine Power. This is assuming each character can only benefit from one nightstick.

A lot of topics I've read however have a lot of people say don't do power point regeneration in a real game so i was wondering if I was missing something. Is there some angle of power point regeneration I'm not seeing here? Because if it's worse than DMM:Persistent Spell, and if DMM:Persistent Spell is incredibly common, I'm not seeing a reason to ban this trick.

This is just for curiosity. I don't have any players that plan on playing a psion anytime soon.

[magic9mushroom]

Is there some angle of power point regeneration I'm not seeing here? Because if it's worse than DMM:Persistent Spell, and if DMM:Persistent Spell is incredibly common, I'm not seeing a reason to ban this trick.

The main issue is the "nova" you mentioned. A 20th-level psion has about 450 PP/day, which means they can ordinarily only afford to blow 110 or so per encounter. With recharge tricks, they can blow 400 per encounter without a care, and their various "PP for actions" tricks mean that's quite practical.

[TiaC]

In addition, if your recharge is fast enough, you can keep min/level or even round/level buffs up all day.

[Psyren]

So as I understand it, Psions are tier 2. Furthermore their gamebreaking potential is their action economy.

Let's be clear here, even if no PP recharge tricks existed Psions would still be Tier 2. Sure they don't (easily) get the likes of Gate or Planar Binding, but things like domination and shapeshifting are still potential gamebreakers too. In fact, Psion shapeshifting is even stronger than that of spellcasters in a couple of ways:

1) They can turn into objects, not just creatures.They can't turn into magic items, but there's still a lot of powerful choices out there (including potentially gamebreaking favorites like Devices and Technology.)

2) They can use supernatural abilities of the things they turn into much earlier than spellcasters. While a caster has to wait until Shapechange to do that, the psion can use Metamorphic Transfer and get supernatural abilities as many as 8-9 levels earlier.

[Crake]

So as I understand it, Psions are tier 2.

Psions are arguably teetering on the edge of t1, considering when they hit level 7, they get access to psychic reformation, which lets them re-pick their powers at the cost of a little bit of xp, so at a minor expense, they too can have access to whatever power they need, including cross-list powers of 1 level lower than their max, via expanded knowledge, since psychic reformation covers feats, skills and power selection.

[Troacctid]

Infinite spell slots is like DMM: Persist if you didn't have to spend turning attempts and could just persist 100% of your spells.

The reason warlocks aren't overpowered is because they have a small number of invocations known and those invocations are individually weaker than what a normal spellcaster of the same level can do. Psions have a lot of powers known, and they're as strong or stronger than spells.

[gogogome]

The main issue is the "nova" you mentioned. A 20th-level psion has about 450 PP/day, which means they can ordinarily only afford to blow 110 or so per encounter. With recharge tricks, they can blow 400 per encounter without a care, and their various "PP for actions" tricks mean that's quite practical.

I think the problem here is more the action economy breakers rather than the power point regeneration. If I had to ban one or the other I'm siding towards the action economy breaking. One schism or One fission, never both, and no synchronicity linked power, or something like that. I need more experience to come up with a fair limit.


In addition, if your recharge is fast enough, you can keep min/level or even round/level buffs up all day.

Which makes it on a similar level as DMM:Persistent spell, but cleric buffs are far superior than psion buffs.


Let's be clear here, even if no PP recharge tricks existed Psions would still be Tier 2..

I never equated the Psion's tier with its ability to recharge PP.


Infinite spell slots is like DMM: Persist if you didn't have to spend turning attempts and could just persist 100% of your spells.

The reason warlocks aren't overpowered is because they have a small number of invocations known and those invocations are individually weaker than what a normal spellcaster of the same level can do. Psions have a lot of powers known, and they're as strong or stronger than spells.

I thought about this, but regeneration isn't free. You need to constantly consume your move and standard action for 1 PP. Or depending on the trick, two move actions and a standard action, which means you aren't really moving while you're spending all your actions keeping buffs up. I don't think moving at a quarter of your speed to keep your buffs up is practical where as with DMM:Persistent Spell you don't need to constantly spend actions every round to maintain it.

[Troacctid]

I think the problem here is more the action economy breakers rather than the power point regeneration. If I had to ban one or the other I'm siding towards the action economy breaking. One schism or One fission, never both, and no synchronicity linked power, or something like that. I need more experience to come up with a fair limit.
No, it's definitely the power point regeneration. Even without any way to gain extra actions, there are more than enough swift and immediate action powers for you to easily blow twice your ML in power points every round—not to mention that having your buffs always active is its own form of action economy.


Which makes it on a similar level as DMM:Persistent spell, but cleric buffs are far superior than psion buffs.
Clerics are getting two or three all-day buffs. Psions get all of them at once, plus unlimited castings of everything else.


I thought about this, but regeneration isn't free. You need to constantly consume your move and standard action for 1 PP. Or depending on the trick, two move actions, which means you aren't really moving while you're spending all your actions keeping buffs up. I don't think moving at a quarter of your speed to keep your buffs up is practical where as with DMM:Persistent Spell you don't need to constantly spend actions every round to maintain it.
Actions don't matter outside of combat. At all. And the recharge time is trivial. It's comparable to the time initiators use to refresh maneuvers. If you have a mount, you don't even have to slow down.

[gogogome]

Clerics are getting two or three all-day buffs. Psions get all of them at once, plus unlimited castings of everything else.

I've never seen a cleric not go Extended Persistent Spell, so that's 4-6 all day buffs.


No, it's definitely the power point regeneration. Even without any way to gain extra actions, there are more than enough swift and immediate action powers for you to easily blow twice your ML in power points every round—not to mention that having your buffs always active is its own form of action economy.
...
Actions don't matter outside of combat. At all. And the recharge time is trivial. It's comparable to the time initiators use to refresh maneuvers. If you have a mount, you don't even have to slow down.

If we look at Schism, it costs 7 power points to maintain for 1round/level. Even with a mount, it takes two move actions and a standard action to regenerate one point of PP. With Schism this can be achieved in one round. So you need to spend 7 rounds of those 1round/level recharging PP and 1 extra round to manifest the Schism. I don't see a Psion maintaining more than 2 round/level buffs, which is the vast majority of psion buffs, so to me DMM:Persistent Spell clerics are the clear winner here. More buffs and stronger buffs. Psions don't even compare.

I don't think a Warlock is a good comparision since I am comparing the Psion with Tier1s like Clerics and Wizards. Warlocks cannot be compared to DMM Clerics and wizards by themselves so using them as a measuring stick to Psions seems like a poor choice.

Power Point regeneration allowing a Psion to spend 100% of his power points every encounter might be a problem and that's what seems to be the problem everyone is concerned about. The "nova" as magic9mushroom puts it. Without Nova power point regeneration seems inconsequential. And "every encounter" might be an exaggeration as the Psion requires 45 minutes to recharge 450 PP, or 90 minutes if they take 2 rounds to regenerate 1 PP, and a 2nd encounter can happen in that time.

I still think the action economy breaker is the real problem here rather than the power point regeneration. Without the nova power point regeneration seems 1/3rd of the strength of DMM:Persistent Spell.

[RoboEmperor]

I've never seen a cleric not go Extended Persistent Spell, so that's 4-6 all day buffs.



If we look at Schism, it costs 7 power points to maintain for 1round/level. Even with a mount, it takes two move actions and a standard action to regenerate one point of PP. With Schism this can be achieved in one round. So you need to spend 7 rounds of those 1round/level recharging PP and 1 extra round to manifest the Schism. I don't see a Psion maintaining more than 2 round/level buffs, which is the vast majority of psion buffs, so to me DMM:Persistent Spell clerics are the clear winner here. More buffs and stronger buffs. Psions don't even compare.

I don't think a Warlock is a good comparision since I am comparing the Psion with Tier1s like Clerics and Wizards. Warlocks cannot be compared to DMM Clerics and wizards by themselves so using them as a measuring stick to Psions seems like a poor choice.

Power Point regeneration allowing a Psion to spend 100% of his power points every encounter might be a problem and that's what seems to be the problem everyone is concerned about. The "nova" as magic9mushroom puts it. Without Nova power point regeneration seems inconsequential. And "every encounter" might be an exaggeration as the Psion requires 45 minutes to recharge 450 PP, or 90 minutes if they take 2 rounds to regenerate 1 PP, and a 2nd encounter can happen in that time.

I still think the action economy breaker is the real problem here rather than the power point regeneration. Without the nova power point regeneration seems 1/3rd of the strength of DMM:Persistent Spell.

With Extend Power you can double that to 3-4 buffs. And if those buffs are Fission and Schism you can manifest two anticipatory strikes to always go first even against a celerity spellcaster and get all the buffs you want up turn 1 and nova.

Just make the two mutually exclusive. Nova Psions can't go PP regeneration, and PP regeneration Psions can't go nova.


No, it's definitely the power point regeneration. Even without any way to gain extra actions, there are more than enough swift and immediate action powers for you to easily blow twice your ML in power points every round—not to mention that having your buffs always active is its own form of action economy.

Just because you can blow all your PP really quickly doesn't mean it's good. The action economy breakers are good because you can spam as many no PR/SR damage powers until everything is dead before they get a chance to act. If it's just about manifesting augmented swift action stuff I doubt it's OP.

[magic9mushroom]

And "every encounter" might be an exaggeration as the Psion requires 45 minutes to recharge 450 PP, or 90 minutes if they take 2 rounds to regenerate 1 PP, and a 2nd encounter can happen in that time.
There are ways to do it faster. The obvious one, though it requires ML 19, is to manifest Fission, manifest Affinity Field with both bodies, and spam augmented Bestow Powers on each other (or just one, if Affinity Field pong is in play). With pong, this obviously refills you in 1 round; without, it's 12 PP per round (18 for 12 + 12 for each of you). That's without any feats. With Twin Power, it's 28 PP per round (18 for 8 + 8 + 8 + 8). With Twin Power + Metapower, it's 42 PP per round (19 for 10 + 10 + 10 + 10).

[gogogome]

There are ways to do it faster. The obvious one, though it requires ML 19, is to manifest Fission, manifest Affinity Field with both bodies, and spam augmented Bestow Powers on each other (or just one, if Affinity Field pong is in play). With pong, this obviously refills you in 1 round; without, it's 12 PP per round (18 for 12 + 12 for each of you). That's without any feats. With Twin Power, it's 28 PP per round (18 for 8 + 8 + 8 + 8). With Twin Power + Metapower, it's 42 PP per round (19 for 10 + 10 + 10 + 10).

I see. Didn't know that. That does seem very fast. Ok so yeah, I think I might take Robo's suggestion and make Bestow Power mutually exclusive with Schism and Fission. I think that is probably best.

[sorcererlover]

None. Like zero. Nada. Zilch.

I mean, if a 7th level Wilder can achieve infinite PP just by knowing the one power...

Like, honestly. You can't call something optimized if there is literally no optimization going on. Would you call a wizard grabbing Fireball optimized? Or a sorcerer grabbing scorching ray optimized?

[Psyren]

I never equated the Psion's tier with its ability to recharge PP.

You're right - what you said was their gamebreaking potential was their action economy. But my point still stands - they would be T2 (i.e. potentially gamebreaking) without that too.

[Phillyg]

Divine Metamagic is not broken. It's the shenanigans that players use to get umpteen hundred turn attempts that are broken.

[Red Fel]

People talking about a Psion going nova or expending all of his PP in one encounter are forgetting a very crucial point here:

You can't spend more points on a power than your manifester level.

Once more, for the people in the back:

You can't spend more points on a power than your manifester level.

Say you're a level 20 Psion. Your ML is 20. That means you can spend 20 points on a power. Yes, if you have Overchannel, you can increase that to 23 in exchange for taking damage, but still, that's an upper limit.

If your combat lasts for five rounds, then yes, you could expend 20 PP per round, for a total of 100 PP, more than a quarter of your daily allotment (counting only PP from class levels, not other sources). But at level 20... That's not happening. Combat at level 20 and up becomes rocket tag; if your team goes first, you win in one round, generally speaking. That means you're using one power, maybe two, in an encounter. That's a total of about 40 PP. You can easily soak that loss at level 20, without the need for any kind of PP recovery.

So, no. I don't see this as being highly optimized, or dramatically altering a Psion's power or versatility.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Red Fel, remember that it's not ML points per round; it's ML points per manifestation. And given the absurd amount of action economy shenanigans manifesters get with likewise absurd ease, it's not terribly hard to get numerous standard actions per turn and NI turns per round, especially at high levels.

So that 20 pp per round you said? Multiply it by NI.

[RoboEmperor]

People talking about a Psion going nova or expending all of his PP in one encounter are forgetting a very crucial point here:

You can't spend more points on a power than your manifester level.

Once more, for the people in the back:

You can't spend more points on a power than your manifester level.

Say you're a level 20 Psion. Your ML is 20. That means you can spend 20 points on a power. Yes, if you have Overchannel, you can increase that to 23 in exchange for taking damage, but still, that's an upper limit.

If your combat lasts for five rounds, then yes, you could expend 20 PP per round, for a total of 100 PP, more than a quarter of your daily allotment (counting only PP from class levels, not other sources). But at level 20... That's not happening. Combat at level 20 and up becomes rocket tag; if your team goes first, you win in one round, generally speaking. That means you're using one power, maybe two, in an encounter. That's a total of about 40 PP. You can easily soak that loss at level 20, without the need for any kind of PP recovery.

So, no. I don't see this as being highly optimized, or dramatically altering a Psion's power or versatility.

Fission gives you two PCs to do two full round of actions. Schism gives each fission one extra standard action. So that's four standard actions and 2 move actions. Temporal Acceleration is time stop. Synchronicity Linked to a 2nd Synchronicity gives you a free 2nd standard action next round. Anticipatory Strike is Celerity. Combine all of this and you can make a loop of infinite actions. In other words, you keep spamming a ML20 power over and over until you run out of PP all before anyone in the encounter gets a turn. That's what gogogome is referring to. Spending 450 power points on the first round of combat to get 99 actions be it buffing, spamming no-save no-PR damage spells at ML20, etc.

[Piggy Knowles]

In practice: assuming you banned all action-granting powers, a psion with PP regeneration, without going nova, would likely keep one or two rounds/level buffs (such as greater concealing amorpha for constant total concealment that isn't actually invisibility and therefore doesn't show up via see invisibility) constantly active, and would probably spend about 40-50 PP per round just with swift action + standard action manifesting. That definitely breaks a key limitation for psions, but whether it's actually broken or not is really going to depend heavily on the rest of the party and the campaign. I do consider PP regeneration more valuable than DMM persist, though; even assuming a half-dozen persisted buffs on the part of the cleric, the ability to constantly manifest your highest level powers without concern for daily limits is just really good. Banning schism, temporal acceleration, fission and synchronicity definitely makes PP regeneration less insane, but psions still have enough decent swift/immediate action options even without those to still want to manifest multiple powers a round if PP regen is on the table.

If you had to only ban one or the other, though, I'd definitely go for the action-granting abuse. I find that heavy action manipulation is way worse for actual gameplay than just being able to go all day long. It almost always takes forever to resolve (less of a concern in a play-by-post than in an IRL game, but still a concern), and is almost always used to just completely end an encounter in one fell swoop, whereas a psion who constantly regenerates PP isn't necessarily breaking the game, depending on how they use those power points. This is just personal opinion, but I find it a lot easier to respect the social contract that is necessary to keep a good game running with something like PP regeneration or persistent spells than with nova tactics.

[gogogome]

None. Like zero. Nada. Zilch.

I mean, if a 7th level Wilder can achieve infinite PP just by knowing the one power...

Like, honestly. You can't call something optimized if there is literally no optimization going on. Would you call a wizard grabbing Fireball optimized? Or a sorcerer grabbing scorching ray optimized?

This is hilarious. Yet I cannot see the flaw in this logic. So I'll have to agree. If a naked core class without any gear or feats grabbing a single power results in the trick, that trick is not cheese or OP.


Divine Metamagic is not broken. It's the shenanigans that players use to get umpteen hundred turn attempts that are broken.

That is what I was saying. Divine Metamagic is not broken, power point regeneration is worse than Divine Metamagic, therefore power point regeneration is not broken.


People talking about a Psion going nova or expending all of his PP in one encounter are forgetting a very crucial point here:

You can't spend more points on a power than your manifester level.

Once more, for the people in the back:

You can't spend more points on a power than your manifester level.

Say you're a level 20 Psion. Your ML is 20. That means you can spend 20 points on a power. Yes, if you have Overchannel, you can increase that to 23 in exchange for taking damage, but still, that's an upper limit.

If your combat lasts for five rounds, then yes, you could expend 20 PP per round, for a total of 100 PP, more than a quarter of your daily allotment (counting only PP from class levels, not other sources). But at level 20... That's not happening. Combat at level 20 and up becomes rocket tag; if your team goes first, you win in one round, generally speaking. That means you're using one power, maybe two, in an encounter. That's a total of about 40 PP. You can easily soak that loss at level 20, without the need for any kind of PP recovery.

So, no. I don't see this as being highly optimized, or dramatically altering a Psion's power or versatility.

This post suggests it's the action economy breakers that is the problem here not the power point regeneration.

At this point I am thoroughly convinced that I was right about power point regeneration being normal op and i should allow it in my game should a player ask for it, and ban grabbing fission and schism on the same character.

[Phillyg]

At this point I am thoroughly convinced that I was right about power point regeneration being normal op and i should allow it in my game should a player ask for it, and ban grabbing fission and schism on the same character.

Problem? What is the problem?

The ability to Nova is what separates Psionics from Magic, and should not be banned! Power point regeneration is shenanigans to let Psions eat their cake, puke it out, rinse and repeat ad infinitum. BAN THAT!

[Piggy Knowles]

One quick clarification. You mentioned just banning the combination of fission + schism. I'd say that allowing even just one of these makes PP regeneration actually broken and not just potentially broken. Consider that with just schism, every single round you can manifest a fully augmented power, a swift/immediate action power and a power of up to your ML -6. That's really really good in practice, and certainly far above what your typical DMM persist buffbot is going to be doing. Without PP regeneration, a psion who tried that would blow through their daily PP in a single encounter. Just something to keep in mind if you're considering houserules for actual games.

But again, it really depends on how you use it. I DM'd a game with someone who played a variant on RadicalTaoist's Psycarnum Warrior, a PsyWar that uses Psycarnum Infusion shenanigans to stay buffed constantly. (I know there's recently been debate on whether this actually works that I'm not trying to reopen at this point, just using it as an example from an actual game.) I had no issues with the character at all. The game ended before he got access to form of doom, so maybe my tune would have changed once he started combining form of doom with maximally augmented psionic lion's charge, but in general he was fine. But in that same campaign, I definitely WOULD have had a problem with even a moderately optimized psion with PP regeneration using schism to spam three powers a round.

[Troacctid]

People talking about a Psion going nova or expending all of his PP in one encounter are forgetting a very crucial point here:

You can't spend more points on a power than your manifester level.
Come on, man, I literally referenced the cap in my post about it. There's no need to patronize.


This is hilarious. Yet I cannot see the flaw in this logic. So I'll have to agree. If a naked core class without any gear or feats grabbing a single power results in the trick, that trick is not cheese or OP.
The logic falls right apart once you remember psychic enervation. 85% of the time, you gain 1 PP, and the other 15%, you lose 7 (or more). That maths out to a net loss of power points.


That is what I was saying. Divine Metamagic is not broken, power point regeneration is worse than Divine Metamagic, therefore power point regeneration is not broken.
Recharging PP is functionally equivalent to near-infinite turning attempts for this purpose.


This post suggests it's the action economy breakers that is the problem here not the power point regeneration.

At this point I am thoroughly convinced that I was right about power point regeneration being normal op and i should allow it in my game should a player ask for it, and ban grabbing fission and schism on the same character.
And why is everyone so fixated on level 20? It's the level where you need recharging the least and you're basically supposed to be overpowered anyway. At level 6, you can use up your entire reserve in 6–7 rounds even if all you do is manifest a single power per round.

[gogogome]

One quick clarification. You mentioned just banning the combination of fission + schism. I'd say that allowing even just one of these makes PP regeneration actually broken and not just potentially broken. Consider that with just schism, every single round you can manifest a fully augmented power, a swift/immediate action power and a power of up to your ML -6. That's really really good in practice, and certainly far above what your typical DMM persist buffbot is going to be doing. Without PP regeneration, a psion who tried that would blow through their daily PP in a single encounter. Just something to keep in mind if you're considering houserules for actual games.

Could you give an example? I am quite familiar with DMM so I know how strong they are, but I don't know that many psionics combos so what would be a typical 1 round action of a psion with schism? All I can think of is 3 max augment crystal shards: one quickened, one schism, and one normal.


But again, it really depends on how you use it. I DM'd a game with someone who played a variant on RadicalTaoist's Psycarnum Warrior, a PsyWar that uses Psycarnum Infusion shenanigans to stay buffed constantly. (I know there's recently been debate on whether this actually works that I'm not trying to reopen at this point, just using it as an example from an actual game.) I had no issues with the character at all. The game ended before he got access to form of doom, so maybe my tune would have changed once he started combining form of doom with maximally augmented psionic lion's charge, but in general he was fine. But in that same campaign, I definitely WOULD have had a problem with even a moderately optimized psion with PP regeneration using schism to spam three powers a round.

That is true. I banned DMM:Persistent Spell when I first started DMing but after looking at all the cool non-OP tricks it opened up for creative players, I changed my tune and allowed it.

[Psyren]

The Pathfinder version (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/b/bestow-power/) closes off most of the PP recharge abuses.

[gogogome]

The logic falls right apart once you remember psychic enervation. 85% of the time, you gain 1 PP, and the other 15%, you lose 7 (or more). That maths out to a net loss of power points.

That is true. At no-op it is a net loss that grows worse. This can be optimized around like in Robo's build where he goes 1 level in Wilder and increases the Wild Surge by going Anarchic Initiate. But how high op would such a trick be? How about grabbing Midnight Augmentation from Magic of Incarnum? That feat will make it a net gain. How high op would just grabbing that feat be? And whatever level of optimization we agree on, how does it compare to DMM:Persistent Spell?


Recharging PP is functionally equivalent to near-infinite turning attempts for this purpose.

I disagree. A 1 round/level spell, lets say CL10, you need 1440 spell slots to keep it up 24 hours. So DMM:Persistent Spell gave you 1440 spell slots. At level 10, I believe you can recharge 1 power point in 2 rounds so spending the entire day recharging power points results in 7200 power points, which equates to 1440 3rd level spell slots. Persist a higher level spell, or more than one spell and the amount of resources you get from recharging is dwarfed.


And why is everyone so fixated on level 20? It's the level where you need recharging the least and you're basically supposed to be overpowered anyway. At level 6, you can use up your entire reserve in 6–7 rounds even if all you do is manifest a single power per round.

I agree. By 15th level everything is a rocket tag so whether one rocket is bigger than the other is irrelevant, so we should be focusing on the lower levels. By my estimation, 12th level or lower.

[Rebel7284]

As people have mentioned in the past, what is broken depends heavily on your game.


This is hilarious. Yet I cannot see the flaw in this logic. So I'll have to agree. If a naked core class without any gear or feats grabbing a single power results in the trick, that trick is not cheese or OP.


Shapechange is (for many games) broken and OP even if it's a CORE spell that a single classed naked wizard can cast. 3.5 is notoriously poorly balanced.

[gogogome]

As people have mentioned in the past, what is broken depends heavily on your game.



Shapechange is (for many games) broken and OP even if it's a CORE spell that a single classed naked wizard can cast. 3.5 is notoriously poorly balanced.

I don't count shapechange, polymorph, or any calling spell like Gate or Planar Binding because monsters break the game wide open. Bestow Power doesn't give you access to the broken monsters which is why I equate it to fireball or scorching ray.

[martixy]

People talking about a Psion going nova or expending all of his PP in one encounter are forgetting a very crucial point here:

You can't spend more points on a power than your manifester level.

You're a bit off the discussion here.

Which is about action economy abuse. The nova potential is a side effect of that.

@OP:
IMO PP regeneration is not enough to push psions out of their tier. And based on your analysis, it's even less raw resource than DMM/Persist in many cases.

Frankly, I'm perfectly fine letting psionics have its action economy shtick, given how many other goodies casters get.

[Piggy Knowles]

Could you give an example? I am quite familiar with DMM so I know how strong they are, but I don't know that many psionics combos so what would be a typical 1 round action of a psion with schism? All I can think of is 3 max augment crystal shards: one quickened, one schism, and one normal.


It really depends on the level and the particular psion build. Assuming you aren't talking about level 20 and you completely take metamorphosis shenanigans off the table based on your above comments, psions still have a good spread of offensive powers including direct damage (I've never liked blasters, but psions certainly do it better than most even without going full nova), save-or-loses (my personal favorites are ectoplasmic cocoon and the mass version, psionic telekinetic sphere, psionic plane shift and crystallize, but they actually have a ton of options here) and BFC (walls and astral constructs in particular, plus the various telekinetic maneuvers, some of which also double as direct damage). Don't forget that solicit psicrystal means you never need to be afraid of taking concentration-based powers (heck, I consider going full Jean Grey and having your psicrystal maintain a telekinetic sphere while you use Burrowing Power to fire off powerful force effects about as iconic as it gets for a psion).

[Troacctid]

Okay, first off, not all buffs are rounds/level. There are some very strong minute/level buffs, like touchsight and metamorphosis , and even 10 minute/level spells like detect hostile intent, which become trivial to keep up all day (sometimes even on the whole party e.g. levitate). Second, Persistent Spell is overpowered, so it's weird that you're pointing to it as your benchmark for not-overpowered. Third, crystal shard, really?

[Red Fel]

You're a bit off the discussion here.

Which is about action economy abuse. The nova potential is a side effect of that.

Actually, that's precisely my point. Specifically...


This post suggests it's the action economy breakers that is the problem here not the power point regeneration.

This. Breaking the action economy, more than nova and more than PP regeneration and more than basically anything else, is what breaks the game wide open. When you have NI actions per round, you can resolve basically any situation in that one round. At that point, yes, PP regeneration is going to make it easier for you to exploit the gamebreaking effects of NI actions per round, but the problem is still having NI actions per round.

Others have correctly noted that the manifester level cap is per manifestation, not per round. That's right. But there are typically limits to just how many powers you can manifest in a single round. When these limits are in place, PP regeneration isn't going to significantly influence the decision as to whether to go nova.

It is only when we remove those limits, when we break the action economy, that PP regeneration becomes something to consider. But when that happens, the PP regeneration isn't the real issue - it's the broken action economy.

Here's an illustration. Say your Fighter has a Longsword. A special artifact Longsword that deals +5 additional damage per hit each round. If it hits once per round, it deals normal damage; if it hits twice, the second hit deals +5 damage; if it hits three times, the third hit deals +10; and so forth. That's not gamebreaking. If, however, your Fighter had an ability that let him perform NI attacks per round, that number would appropriately increment to NI damage, guaranteeing a kill on every target (barring some kind of immunity to HP damage). The problem isn't the artifact Longsword with an uncapped incremental damage increase; the problem is that your Fighter has NI attacks per round.

That's my point. PP regeneration isn't gamebreaking; it's not an issue. The issue is cracking the action economy like an egg and then adding PP regeneration to the already volatile mix.

[gogogome]

Okay, first off, not all buffs are rounds/level. There are some very strong minute/level buffs, like touchsight and metamorphosis , and even 10 minute/level spells like detect hostile intent, which become trivial to keep up all day (sometimes even on the whole party e.g. levitate).

My point was you have to compare the amount of spell slots DMM:Persistent Spell gives instead of how many turn undead it consumes. So PP regeneration does not equate to infinite turn undead charges, and a psion trying to copy DMM:Persistent Spell with PP regeneration will fail, which is why I don't consider it to be an OP tactic at this time. And whether you use PP for 1min/level buff does not matter because DMM:Persistent Spell is mainly used on round/level buffs and we're trying to compare how much resource we get from each trick.

On the other hand, PP is not restricted to buffs like DMM:Persistent Spell so when you use those 1440 spell slots for action economy breakers instead of buffs the result is very different. Which goes back to it all depending on how you use it. PP regeneration breaks action economy breakers, but it doesn't break perpetual buffs. Considering how warlocks and reserve feats at-will blasting does not break games even if you triple their damage output or give them iterative attacks, I'm gonna say using that 7200 power points for triple blasting a round is high-op but far from broken, which is why I keep insisting it's the action economy breakers that are the problem here, not the PP regeneration


Second, Persistent Spell is overpowered, so it's weird that you're pointing to it as your benchmark for not-overpowered. Third, crystal shard, really?

I don't consider it overpowered perhaps because I've adapted to it. I can't seem to recall the last time I played with a cleric that didn't have DMM:Persistent spell, even if it's just 1/day. If you believe DMM:Persistent Spell is overpowered and must be banned from every table, then perhaps that is why we are disagreeing here. Our tables play on different power levels. I cannot seem to recall the last time a DMM:Persistent cleric gave me trouble. I recall one used persistent cloud knives and darkfire to be an all day blaster and was far superior to the party wizard in performance but he was within normal range compared to a mundane archer and higher levels the cleric was an excellent beatstick but the wizard was an excellent beatstick too with minionmancy and he would do BFC on top of that. I do realize some spells when persisted are problematic like consumptive field but that's a problem with the spell not DMM:Persistent Spell.

[Telok]

Power point regeneration is about as optimized as DMM with nightsticks. If you grab the low end (wilder 4, bestow power, other manifester classes OR the 1 pp/2 rounds that sucks up about 4 feats) then it's closer to a DMM cleric with one nightstick.

The real issue, as others have said, is the linked power combos. Just realize that 90% of the CPsi splat is garbage and gate that content behind DM permission on a per character / per level basis.

[RoboEmperor]

The logic falls right apart once you remember psychic enervation. 85% of the time, you gain 1 PP, and the other 15%, you lose 7 (or more). That maths out to a net loss of power points..

I'd like to point out grabbing something as simple as Enervation Endurance also turns this into a profit. No incarnum stuff.

[Ramza00]

Power Point Regeneration is not really that optimized when you consider Power Link Shards.

(For the sake of Argument lets limit Power Link Shards to not increasing your PP by more than your HD+2.)

Power Link Shards cost 3,000 GP and 1 HP per Shard if you buy them or 1,500 GP and HP per Shard if you craft them (Requires Craft Universal Item, bestow power power, 1,500 gp, 120 XP, 3 days.) Oh you also have to be the Kalashtar Race but that is an awesome psionic race which is LA 0. It is a generally good psionic race but it gets even better if you do a 1 LVL dip into thrallherd. Kalashtar allows you to be any discipline and still do thrallherd with a single feat dip of Inquisitor, while if you were a different race you have to be a Telepath and a single feat dip (Inquisitor), or you be another race and do 2 feats.

In return Power Link Shards give you 6 PP a day for those 3,000 GP items (or 1,500 GP if you craft them) and can boost your ML 2 above its normal amount. (In theory you can go much higher like cast 9th level astral constructs at character level 6 but that is why I say you should self impose your ML to only be 2 higher than your normal amount effectively similar to the overchannel feat. This is why in my 2nd sentence lets pretend you only can boost your ML 2 above your hit dice.)

So 3,000 GP and 1 Hit Point gives you a form of overchannel like the feat, except it is numerically superior since it also gives you 6 free power points.

-----

Well is infinite Power Points even better the answer is "yes" :smallwink: but the thing is you have to expend more resources either wealth by level or more feats to get this infinite power points :smalltongue:

It is a trade off and you have to choose if the trade off is worth the extra cost of optimization vs the benefit of taking the easy power that is less powerful but also with less downsides.

At higher character levels (lets say lvl 13+) power link shards are losing their shine for you have more feats and more wealth, but at lower levels of gameplay choosing to make your own power link shards with the awesome feat craft universal item seems the way to go. That is because craft universal item can craft other things besides power link shards. So lvls 3 to 7 I would definitely choose and prefer Power Link Shards, and with Lvl 8 to 13 being a transition zone where it is kind of worth it and kind of not depending on your build.

[TiaC]

Power Point Regeneration is not really that optimized when you consider Power Link Shards.

And Power Link Shards are not really that optimized when you consider Pun-Pun. However, comparing an option to another option that is gamebreakingly powerful says almost nothing about its power.

[Crichton]

And Power Link Shards are not really that optimized when you consider Pun-Pun. However, comparing an option to another option that is gamebreakingly powerful says almost nothing about its power.


I don't think that's entirely fair.

Pretty sure his point was that Power Link Shards are an unquestionably legit and intended aspect of the psionic system, so comparing PP regen tricks to them is a way to point out that they, while marginally more questionable, aren't outside the intended power level of psionic options.


It's not like he compared them to some completely unrelated, unquestionably overpowered exploit or trick.

[TiaC]

I don't think that's entirely fair.

Pretty sure his point was that Power Link Shards are an unquestionably legit and intended aspect of the psionic system, so comparing PP regen tricks to them is a way to point out that they, while marginally more questionable, aren't outside the intended power level of psionic options.


It's not like he compared them to some completely unrelated, unquestionably overpowered exploit or trick.

Power Link Shards are semi-obscure setting-specific material that leads to far greater power than non-Tippy games work with. It's like saying that Turn Undead lets you control Shadows and Shadows can create unlimited chains of spawn, so allowing Leadership chains is fine because a 3rd level cleric can easily have an army of thousands of undead. There's tons of material that is "intended" and still broken. Diplomacy, Gate, Ice Assassin, Dark Speech, Thought Bottle, Chain-binding...

[Ramza00]

Power Link Shards are semi-obscure setting-specific material that leads to far greater power than non-Tippy games work with. It's like saying that Turn Undead lets you control Shadows and Shadows can create unlimited chains of spawn, so allowing Leadership chains is fine because a 3rd level cleric can easily have an army of thousands of undead. There's tons of material that is "intended" and still broken. Diplomacy, Gate, Ice Assassin, Dark Speech, Thought Bottle, Chain-binding...

You are reflexively arguing with a phantasm for my 2nd sentence was this.


(For the sake of Argument lets limit Power Link Shards to not increasing your PP by more than your HD+2.)

Aka no infinite loops or easily breaking the CR system for it is boosting your ML no higher than what Overchannel or Wild Surge can do.


I don't think that's entirely fair.

Pretty sure his point was that Power Link Shards are an unquestionably legit and intended aspect of the psionic system, so comparing PP regen tricks to them is a way to point out that they, while marginally more questionable, aren't outside the intended power level of psionic options.


It's not like he compared them to some completely unrelated, unquestionably overpowered exploit or trick.

Exactly! And I would argue Power Link Shards works more like the the designers intended (even though 3.5 is a mixture of designers not with a single will or idea of balance) while mixing and matching feats, magic items, etc is more breaking the idea of what was considered possible via using bestow power and other things to create infinite PP.

One is trying to create an exploit on purpose, the other is a magic item that may or may not **should** be allowed in your own personal game.

[Quertus]

I've been in 2 games with psions with recovery mechanics; in neither was the recovery particularly noteworthy. One psion's greatest accomplishment cost 7 pp; another's cost 0 pp. So I don't think it's likely to break anything on its own.

(Balance to the table)

[Crichton]

Power Link Shards are semi-obscure setting-specific material that leads to far greater power than non-Tippy games work with. It's like saying that Turn Undead lets you control Shadows and Shadows can create unlimited chains of spawn, so allowing Leadership chains is fine because a 3rd level cleric can easily have an army of thousands of undead. There's tons of material that is "intended" and still broken. Diplomacy, Gate, Ice Assassin, Dark Speech, Thought Bottle, Chain-binding...

It's not like that at all. You're throwing up an extreme exploit loop (your reference to PunPun) as a way to dismiss his entire argument. The original question was what level of optimization is PP regen. His answer was that it's not that high, when compared to taking a (not that overpowered) published feature and using it as intended. You bringing in extreme exploits as examples, or even trying to use as examples features that are perhaps broken when cheesed or abused, is an unfair way to dismiss the validity of his response.