OOTS #1160 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[The DM]

Boomerang buddies! :roy::durkon:

[Resileaf]

Y'all April's fools people are gonna have to talk about the actual comic now. :D

I think we can confirm that Durkon got what is probably a new belt of giant's strength. It's a different one from the one he wore before.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Some character growth for V, perhaps they increased their constitution since they gained a level from that last encounter?

the LOKI SUCKS hammer is literally Mjolnir,

And judging by how they flung their weapons and returned them to their hands in one round, the bridge is at least 50 feet long and Gontor is ~10th level.

[KrankenWagon]

Guess Durkon's new weapon is all but confirmed to be a hammer of thunderbolts now as it has a returning enchantment

[Malfarian]

EXCELLENT WORK! Great way to start the week.

[Psyren]

Mid-air evasion! Dang OP rogues :smalltongue:
And it's nice to see the Order actually making their concentration checks for a change.

*heads to Geekery thread to check stat speculations on Durkon's new toy*

[Reboot]

And so soon after the April Fools thread. Heh.

Roy look kinda weird in the "throwing" panel to anyone else?

Also, is Minrah not here? Giant makes a point of showing Hilgya in the "so much for surprise" panel, but not her.

[IntelectPaladin]

Goodness Gracious.

[KrankenWagon]

And so soon after the April Fools thread. Heh

I wonder if he was waiting for it :smallwink:

[Giscard76]

Hope this update isn't an April fools joke

[librisrouge]

Just what I needed on the worst day of the year. Thanks Giant!

[Arkku]

Is it wrong to feel bad for the death worm?

[CriticalFailure]

Maybe they should’ve consulted Hilgya on the planning

[Hiro Quester]

Love Belkar’s returning breakfast *gag*.

[schmunzel]

Love Belkar’s returning breakfast *gag*.

Boomerang roll :)

sch

[137beth]

Ah, good, now we have both Roy and Durkon to glare at Elan!

[Hiro Quester]

Also enjoying the many new sound effects onomatopoeia in this one.

[Doug Lampert]

Is it wrong to feel bad for the death worm?

It's not down yet. No Xs in the eyes, so it may well be unkillable.

Note: The Hammer of Loki Sucks is almost certainly this (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Hammer_of_Thunderbolts).
The death worm is almost certainly the first entry here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightshade.htm).

[KrankenWagon]

It's not down yet. No Xs in the eyes, so it may well be unkillable.

Technically it doesn't seem to have eyes, so it must be unkillable as there's nowhere for the Xs to go :smallbiggrin:

[thorr-kan]

Is it wrong to feel bad for the death worm?
Yes it is. You may only show sympathy for the protaganists' summoned creatures.

:smallcool:

[Roland Itiative]

First, they come back from the dead, and now, their weapons come back from throws. They really are boomerang buddies :smalltongue:

[Peelee]

I'm sad the Zim armor prophecy didn't come to pass.

[Hiro Quester]

Trying to figure out the turn mechanics.

Worm readies it’s breath attack to interrupt V when casting a spell

V aims a forcecage at Gontor, who is not in the barrier yet.

Worm’s readied attack goes off.

The interruption and successful concentration check somehow also delays the spell, giving Gontor an (out of turn) moment to dodge a forcecage, and escape behind the barrier.

How does Gontor get to move after V aims the spell? He dodges the spell aimed at him, when Forcecage is a “saving throw (none)” spell.

I know, expcting regular turn-by-turn gameplay mechanics would detract from a dramatic moment in a great story. It still it bugs me that Gontor can escape during V’s turn.

[MartianInvader]

Great comic, but what's a "Forcecaage"? I guess it summons some kind of "caage" of force? According to Google it's a Coalition of Asian American Government Employees? I mean, I know no one wants to deal with government employees, but how would they help against vampires?

[Grey Watcher]

the LOKI SUCKS hammer is literally Mjolnir,

Not quite literally. I believe Mjolnir is still hanging on Thor's belt. This is the Just for Kids Mortals version. Still awesome though. :smallbiggrin:

[hroþila]

Be careful, Wormie!

I know, expcting regular turn-by-turn gameplay mechanics would detract from a dramatic moment in a great story. It still it bugs me that Gondor can escape during V’s turn.
It would bug me more if D&D doesn't have a way to deal with simultaneous actions.

[anonynos]

Maybe they should’ve consulted Hilgya on the planning

I mean... she's right there... what makes you think they didn't consult her?

[2D8HP]

First, they come back from the dead, and now, their weapons come back from throws. They really are boomerang buddies :smalltongue:


Oh yeah, they both have visited the afterlife, they share that as well as Alignment.

[Arkku]

No Xs in the eyes, so it may well be unkillable.

Interesting point. Since it doesn't actually have eyes, it can never have Xs in them. One would therefore expect that in such a world many eyeless creatures would have been produced by natural selection, since despite the obvious disadvantage in the beginning (before they evolve magical sight), they would simply be unkillable… (edit: At least by regular means, perhaps disintegration etc still counts.)

[CriticalFailure]

Well maybe they did since LEEROY JENKINS was plan B andnot plan A

[Gnoman]

Way to ruin the moment, Elan.

[Peelee]

Oh yeah, they both have visited the afterlife, they share that as well as Alignment.

Also their hairlines.

[dtilque]

And judging by how they flung their weapons and returned them to their hands in one round, the bridge is at least 50 feet long and Gontor is ~10th level.

Is the reasoning for this in the Geekery thread? I usually don't read that and I don't understand how you came up with a general level for Gontula. Not that I think it wrong, I had him pegged for 11-12th level.



Also, is Minrah not here? Giant makes a point of showing Hilgya in the "so much for surprise" panel, but not her.

Maybe she has a secret mission.

[Fyraltari]

I'm sad the Zim armor prophecy didn't come to pass.

Me too, but then again it makes sense that Durkon's new armor would be identical to the previous one as they both (presumably) came from the same temple.

[Angrith]

It's so good to see Durkon back in action again. Wonderful update Giant!

[Fyraltari]

I'd like to nominate the hammer's strap as most useless feature on a magic item ever.

[ThomasMink]

Just noticed the copyright at the bottom of this one is 2018.. weird. :)

[Kantaki]

Way to ruin the moment, Elan.

Eh, Roy's just annoyed Elan is right.:smalltongue:

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Is the reasoning for this in the Geekery thread? I usually don't read that and I don't understand how you came up with a general level for Gontula. Not that I think it wrong, I had him pegged for 11-12th level.

Someone on the geekery thread figured it out using pixel heights (comparing Haley's height far away to her full height and comparing that ratio to the pixel height of Gontor*) to be about 8th level, however everyone's height is a bit off and Belkar is actually shorter than he looks.

Invisibility Purge is 5ft range/CL, and judging how Durkon got to about the middle of the bridge I'm estimating the bridge to be 50 feet long, so we can confirm Gontor* can be as low as 8th level considering Haley was a bit into the room.

[Peelee]

I'd like to nominate the hammer's strap as most useless feature on a magic item ever.

It's how Durkon throws it.

[Hiro Quester]

Just noticed the copyright at the bottom of this one is 2018.. weird. :)

Perhaps that’s the April Fool part of today’s comic?

[Larre Gannd]

Also their hairlines.

Shhh. They are very sensitive about their baldness.

[Kish]

Perhaps that’s the April Fool part of today’s comic?
Let's not look too hard for something that isn't there.

[Heksefatter]

Awwww, poor Wormy. :frown:

[Malphegor]

Also their hairlines.

We can deduce from this that there is a inverse correlation between length of hair and martial might!

Beards, presumably, do not count.

[JT]

Perhaps that’s the April Fool part of today’s comic?

The Giant drew this comic a year ago, and has been filling in the backstory so the sudden jump in the plot wasn't so jarring.

[Crusher]

All of a sudden, the Order feels like an actual high-level party.

[Anarion]

Exciting battle, and the different sound effects for each weapon were a nice touch. I was half expecting every returning weapon to make a “return!” noise.

[understatement]

Yeahhhhhhhhhh

Awesome

[Verappo]

I will put this down as more proof that Roy would be the first on Durkon's marriage list.

[AutomatedTeller]

Fun comic. Nice to have the heroes in action. What's Hilgya doing, anyway?

[Lhynard]

Trying to figure out the turn mechanics.

I know, expcting regular turn-by-turn gameplay mechanics would detract from a dramatic moment in a great story. It still it bugs me that Gontor can escape during V’s turn.

I think you misunderstand turn-by-turn gameplay mechanics. The rules directly state that all action during a round is meant to happen simultaneously in the game world, and a good DM is supposed to take this into account for the purposes of better storytelling even in a PnP game.

[eilandesq]

Good start with two solid hits from Roy and Durkon. AC 35 isn't easy to hit, even for loaded up physical combatants with levels in the mid-teens. It won't be easy to put down.

[gatemansgc]

hammer of thunderbolts confirmed!

shame V didn't get the forcecage off in time tho

[Riftwolf]

Exciting battle, and the different sound effects for each weapon were a nice touch. I was half expecting every returning weapon to make a “return!” noise.

See I'm imagining Tom Baker in Golden Voyage of Sinbad shouting 'return!'
I know this makes me old

[JumboWheat01]

That smile on Durkon's face when his hammer comes back to him really sells it.

[gatemansgc]

I think you misunderstand turn-by-turn gameplay mechanics. The rules directly state that all action during a round is meant to happen simultaneously in the game world, and a good DM is supposed to take this into account for the purposes of better storytelling even in a PnP game.

also the giant basically follows the rules of the game except when not following them exactly makes a better story.

[Syncrogti]

Is it OK that I would have called this strip "Second Breakfast", a reference to hobbits/LOTR and to Belkar's comment?

V got thrashed by the worm, what was its attack?

[Quebbster]

V got thrashed by the worm, what was its attack?

I assume Cone of Cold.

[kiapet]

I'm proud of V for making that Concentration check. Considering how their inability to do that was a major issue in the fight with Xykon, it shows character growth on V's part.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Pretty cool to see what Durkon‘s new toy can do. Also, love how the Exarch realizes how much of a bad fight this is for them; that’s real panic there.

[Bilbo Baggins]

Cone of cold, which it can cast 3 times per day (if it is, in fact, a nightcrawler).

Also, looks like we have confirmation in this strip that spells can't be cast through the orange barrier from outside it.

[HandofShadows]

So the death worm is going to get hammered and not in a good way for it. But it IS a good way for the Order.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Also, I just noticed the April Fools thread. A beautiful prank, only to be ruined by truly excellent timing by The Giant. :smallamused:

[Sniccups]

Interesting point. Since it doesn't actually have eyes, it can never have Xs in them. One would therefore expect that in such a world many eyeless creatures would have been produced by natural selection, since despite the obvious disadvantage in the beginning (before they evolve magical sight), they would simply be unkillable… (edit: At least by regular means, perhaps disintegration etc still counts.)

This world wasn’t produced by natural selection! Thor said so.

[gatemansgc]

Is it OK that I would have called this strip "Second Breakfast", a reference to hobbits/LOTR and to Belkar's comment?

V got thrashed by the worm, what was its attack?

thought it might be cone of cold (if nightcrawler confirmed, that's one of the attacks it gets), but the design in 41 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0041.html) was different. that was V1 art style tho, don't remember if there were any cone of cold used later in more recent art style to compare to.

[KrankenWagon]

V got thrashed by the worm, what was its attack?

Looks like a cone of cold to me, which nightcrawlers get 3 times a day

[Psychronia]

Welcome back, Durkon. So good to have you back in the fight again as well.

[NoHaxJustPi]

Cone of Cold in the new art style here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0950.html)

[gatemansgc]

did they not have time to raise dead minrah? i mean she's a dwarf so she's one of only 3 who can pass through that outer barrier. but no sign of her o.o

[knag]

So is that Durkon's original armor, and the black armor that Greg wore was different, or did he get new armor after the old armor was rent at the Godsmoot? Thoughts?

[Peelee]

So is that Durkon's original armor, and the black armor that Greg wore was different, or did he get new armor after the old armor was rent at the Godsmoot? Thoughts?

Old armor was destroyed. He obtained new armor. He chose poorly by not getting swanky new blue stuff.

[Fyraltari]

So is that Durkon's original armor, and the black armor that Greg wore was different, or did he get new armor after the old armor was rent at the Godsmoot? Thoughts?

Durkon's armor turned black upon vampirification (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0878.html).
Durkon* then wore it until Roy rent it there (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1009.html), (notice the visible skin, whichwe don't usually see as indicative of the armor itself being damaged).
Durkon* then changed into grey robes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1084.html) which I suspect are Durkon's old blue robe dyed by the same effect (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html).

Being resurrected didn't change the robes' colors or repair the tear (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1149.html) so his old armor should still be black and pierced, however since he likely got it from the temple, he could grab a spare.

The weird thing is that the robes of the other Clerics of Thor weren't affected (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1102.html) with the exception of Sandstone who got purple robes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1103.html) out of blue ones (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1084.html).

The Creed of the Stone, meanwhile clearly had their robes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0994.html) change color (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1017.html).
Weird.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm proud of V for making that Concentration check. Considering how their inability to do that was a major issue in the fight with Xykon, it shows character growth on V's part. Or a luckier d20 roll for that save ...

Belkar's "Returning Breakfast {of Champions}" gets a grin from me.
Haley's dodge/evasion: you Rogue, girl! :smallsmile:

[hewhosaysfish]

V got thrashed by the worm, what was its attack?

Given how spell-casting is usually depicted in this comic, I'm going to say it's a spell called Gllnnnrgghh.

[knag]

Old armor was destroyed. He obtained new armor. He chose poorly by not getting swanky new blue stuff.



Durkon's armor turned black upon vampirification (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0878.html).
Durkon* then wore it until Roy rent it there (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1009.html), (notice the visible skin, whichwe don't usually see as indicative of the armor itself being damaged).
Durkon* then changed into grey robes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1084.html) which I suspect are Durkon's old blue robe dyed by the same effect (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html).

Being resurrected didn't change the robes' colors or repair the tear (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1149.html) so his old armor should still be black and pierced, however since he likely got it from the temple, he could grab a spare.

The weird thing is that the robes of the other Clerics of Thor weren't affected (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1102.html) with the exception of Sandstone who got purple robes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1103.html) out of blue ones (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1084.html).

The Creed of the Stone, meanwhile clearly had their robes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0994.html) change color (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1017.html).
Weird.

Could he not have had Elan use mending to fix the original set? The shield was a heirloom. And with the color change being inconsistently applied, we can't really know if this is the same armor or not.

[Kish]

Old armor was destroyed. He obtained new armor. He chose poorly by not getting swanky new blue stuff.
Who doesn't want to hear what Elan would have said if Durkon's armor now matched Roy's?

:roy: and :durkon: don't.

[Fyraltari]

Could he not have had Elan use mending to fix the original set? The shield was a heirloom. And with the color change being inconsistently applied, we can't really know if this is the same armor or not.

The shield wasn't damaged.

[Peelee]

Could he not have had Elan use mending to fix the original set?.

He could, but Mending is also a level 0 spell for Clerics; he could have done it himself if he wanted. Also, if the shot was magic in any way, it wouldn't have restored the magical abilities, so he be better off getting new magic about regardless (if prior armor was nonmagical, revert to previous rebuttal).

[kenlund]

I am wondering if Hilgya left Kudzu with Sigdi for this fight? It would nice if even a cleric of Loki decided to do the responsible thing in terms of child care.

[Arkain]

Roy and Durkon throwing their weapons in tandem like that was quite satisfying :smallamused:

[Pablo360]

He could, but Mending is also a level 0 spell for Clerics; he could have done it himself if he wanted. Also, if the shot was magic in any way, it would not have restored the magical abilities, so he be better off getting new magic about regardless (if prior armor was nonmagical, revert to previous rebuttal).

“With hand” is a bizarre and inexplicable typo.

[Peelee]

“With hand” is a bizarre and inexplicable typo.

Mucho appreciado.

[wolph42]

i thought it was a death worm, but it appears to be a night crawler, right?

[Ruck]

I am wondering if Hilgya left Kudzu with Sigdi for this fight? It would nice if even a cleric of Loki decided to do the responsible thing in terms of child care.

Hah, now that you mentioned it, I can't not see it as conspicuous that we can't tell from her placement in the panel.

[hamishspence]

i thought it was a death worm, but it appears to be a night crawler, right?

In the previous strip Gontor is probably summarising its nature, rather than being exact - it's a worm, it's a powerful undead creature, so he calls it a death-worm.

[Elves]

Having the hands in front of the weapon grips looks kind of odd in the last panel, since the new hand style sticks out more. Have you considered doing Durkon's grip here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1154.html) more often?

[Leftour]

I am wondering if Hilgya left Kudzu with Sigdi for this fight? It would nice if even a cleric of Loki decided to do the responsible thing in terms of child care.

For all we know the one we see in the panel is Sigdi, after she ended Hilgya, took her helmet and armor as a trophy and got her arm regenerated by Durkon. :smallcool:

[Leftour]

Could he not have had Elan use mending to fix the original set? The shield was a heirloom. And with the color change being inconsistently applied, we can't really know if this is the same armor or not.

They are very similar but the new one is different set of armor. The old one had no tassets (the 2 plates that are hanging from the belt).

[Xel]

For all we know the one we see in the panel is Sigdi, after she ended Hilgya, took her helmet and armor as a trophy and got her arm regenerated by Durkon. :smallcool:

Except that Sigdi doesn’t have yellow hair. Could stilll be that Hilgya loaned her helmet to Minrah, I suppose.

[Emperor Time]

Looks like Durkon's new weapon has some nifty abilities. Which might be enough to turn the tide against these vampiric enemies.

[Syncrogti]

Given how spell-casting is usually depicted in this comic, I'm going to say it's a spell called Gllnnnrgghh.

HAHAHA, thanks to you and everyone who answered it, just couldn't figure it out without going to books.

[KrankenWagon]

HAHAHA, thanks to you and everyone who answered it, just couldn't figure it out without going to books.

It does appear to be faster to ask such questions here and wait for an answer than to look them up yourself sometimes

[schmunzel]

I'm proud of V for making that Concentration check. Considering how their inability to do that was a major issue in the fight with Xykon, it shows character growth on V's part.

Im a little confused why higher stats get mixed up with character growth ??

sch

[Rogar Demonblud]

V realized something was wrong and took steps to correct it. Thus, the stats reflect character growth.

[Larre Gannd]

V realized something was wrong and took steps to correct it. Thus, the stats reflect character growth.

Is someone deciding to go running more often character growth?

I hope so, because that means I’m growing.

[Peelee]

V realized something was wrong and took steps to correct it. Thus, the stats reflect character growth.

What steps?

[dtilque]

I'd like to nominate the hammer's strap as most useless feature on a magic item ever.

Hold on to the strap (or put it around your wrist) and throw it without releasing. You go flying with the hammer. At least that's how I remember how comic book Thor flies from several decades ago. No doubt they've since retconned that so it's not the way he does it anymore.

But if you hold the strap (instead of the handle) while throwing and releasing, it should make the hammer fly faster. This probably does not work in D&D, though, since D&D largely ignores physics.

[Reboot]

Is someone deciding to go running more often character growth?

I hope so, because that means I’m growing.
If egregious voluntary recumbency was a notable character flaw previously, yes.

[Rogar Demonblud]

What steps?

I don't know. The argument seems to be that V's improved their ability to make a Concentration check since the fight with Xykon, so I'd imagine buying ranks of Concentration. Maybe putting a stat boost into Constitution, if V's acquired one in the interim.

[nolongeralurker]

I am wondering if Hilgya left Kudzu with Sigdi for this fight? It would nice if even a cleric of Loki decided to do the responsible thing in terms of child care.

Hah, now that you mentioned it, I can't not see it as conspicuous that we can't tell from her placement in the panel.
I'm wondering the same thing, although if she left Kudzu behind I don't know if it'd be because she realized after the last battle that taking him would be too dangerous (I guess she's aware that her baby was kidnapped during the last fight, since you remember what happened when you were dominated (right?)), or because she felt she could trust him with Sigdi, or because Sigdi wouldn't let her take him (or Hilgya was afraid to even suggest it). Probably because of what Sigdi wanted.

(I was just going to skim the thread to see if someone had already brought up Kudzu, but since I basically ended up reading the whole thing, what the heck, here's some replies to a few other things:)


Is it wrong to feel bad for the death worm?
I feel a little bad too, because of the characterization it got in the last strip. I don't think it's really an evil person, it's just trying to do its job.


Love Belkar’s returning breakfast *gag*.
I see what you did there. (Assuming it was intentional.)


Me too, but then again it makes sense that Durkon's new armor would be identical to the previous one as they both (presumably) came from the same temple.
Wait, did they? When Durkon got kicked out he was just wearing his robe. Did he take his armor with him somehow? Did he buy armor that originated from the same place later? (And did he mention that they kicked him out without any money? I forget.)


Also, is Minrah not here? Giant makes a point of showing Hilgya in the "so much for surprise" panel, but not her.

did they not have time to raise dead minrah? i mean she's a dwarf so she's one of only 3 who can pass through that outer barrier. but no sign of her o.o
They were planning to do it, and this scene is happening seemingly a bunch of hours after the previous one, considering it was the middle of the night/early hours of the morning then (if I remember correctly) and the meeting was happening midmorning (also if I remember correctly), so I'd say she's probably here and there just wasn't enough room to show her.


The shield was a heirloom.
Wait, was it? Did Durkon ever say so or is it just presumed because of his name?

[Jasdoif]

Wait, was it? Did Durkon ever say so or is it just presumed because of his name?He told Roy his hammer and shield were heirlooms. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0237.html)

[Rogar Demonblud]

Wait, did they? When Durkon got kicked out he was just wearing his robe. Did he take his armor with him somehow? Did he buy armor that originated from the same place later? (And did he mention that they kicked him out without any money? I forget.)

They threw his stuff out after him. See DCF.


Wait, was it? Did Durkon ever say so or is it just presumed because of his name?

The dwarf they ran into at the inn in NCFTPB identified them as heirloom weapons. Since we now know that Aunt Shirra bought them for him when he became a cleric, it would seem that was a mistake on his part.

[Fyraltari]

Hold on to the strap (or put it around your wrist) and throw it without releasing. You go flying with the hammer.
This is not how physics work.

It's how Durkon throws it.
What do you mean?


Wait, did they? When Durkon got kicked out he was just wearing his robe. Did he take his armor with him somehow? Did he buy armor that originated from the same place later? (And did he mention that they kicked him out without any money? I forget.)
Take a better look at the memory in the fist panel of the second page here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html). The same thing happens, but clearer in On the Origins of PCs.

EDIT:

The dwarf they ran into at the inn in NCFTPB identified them as heirloom weapons. Since we now know that Aunt Shirra bought them for him when he became a cleric, it would seem that was a mistake on his part.
She bought the practice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1088.html) hammer and shield.

[Peelee]

What do you mean?

Panel 8. He's holding it by the strap, presumably swinging it to get physics to help him a bit.

[zimmerwald1915]

What do you mean?
In the eighth panel of strip 1160, Durkon is slinging the hammer by the strap rather than throwing it by the handle.

Like a ninja.

[understatement]

Wow I'm blind. I just realized Durkon's wearing the gauntlets.

A few q:

Minrah's not anywhere? Aw, but on the other hand I don't want her to be killed again.

What's Belkar referencing? Is it a call-back to something?

[Mortsdeer]

At first glance, I thought Belkar was sporting a brown ponytail, and wondered "has he changed alignment _so much_ that he's gone emo?" Then realized it is Elan's foot.

[zimmerwald1915]

What's Belkar referencing? Is it a call-back to something?
He's likeening vomiting up his lunch to Roy's and Durkon's weapons coming back to them.

[Fyraltari]

Panel 8. He's holding it by the strap, presumably swinging it to get physics to help him a bit.


In the eighth panel of strip 1160, Durkon is slinging the hammer by the strap rather than throwing it by the handle.

Like a ninja.

Oh. Okay. That's a weird way to throw stuff though*. If he was spinning, it I'd understand holding it by the strap.


*He said with no expertise of throwing hammers at all.

[Peelee]

Wow I'm blind. I just realized Durkon's wearing the gauntlets.
And a snazzy new belt!

Oh. Okay. That's a weird way to throw stuff though*. If he was spinning, it I'd understand holding it by the strap.


*He said with no expertise of throwing hammers at all.

Eh, gets more power. If he can control it enough to aim well, I'd say it's a fine way to throw. He said with no expertise of throwing hammers at all.

[Jasdoif]

Minrah's not anywhere?Well, not visibly on-panel at this point. She could very easily be somewhere, depending on what spells Durkon had in mind for her to prepare (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1154.html).

[redzimmer]

I'm not falling for it. I'll click on the link tomorrow.

[Peelee]

I'm not falling for it. I'll click on the link tomorrow.

.... I recommend you fall for it. It's a very benign virus.

[Kish]

I'm not falling for it. I'll click on the link tomorrow.
You can mouse over the link to see what it goes to; it really is just a comic.

(This is truly an abominable day, however.)

[Dausuul]

Trying to figure out the turn mechanics.

Worm readies it’s breath attack to interrupt V when casting a spell

V aims a forcecage at Gontor, who is not in the barrier yet.

Worm’s readied attack goes off.

The interruption and successful concentration check somehow also delays the spell, giving Gontor an (out of turn) moment to dodge a forcecage, and escape behind the barrier.
Alternative reading:

1. Haley shoots. (V is starting to say the word "forcecage" but has not actually begun casting.)
2. Gontor runs through the barrier.
3. Worm, guessing correctly that V is about to lob a haymaker spell, readies its breath attack.
4. V casts forcecage, withstanding the readied attack, only to discover that it is negated by the barrier.

[Jasdoif]

.... I recommend you fall for it. It's a very benign virus.Are silver dragons immune to malagolintomontorosis?

[Peelee]

Are silver dragons immune to malagolintomontorosis?

.......... I'm gonna say yes?

[dtilque]

This is not how physics work.

Yes, but this is D&D, where the laws of physics sit in the corner and cry.

[Jasdoif]

.......... I'm gonna say yes?It isn't quite as benign for purple dragons. (Yes, Disney's The Sword in the Stone is eighteen years older than I am; but that's what allows it to qualify as a classic.)

[ti'esar]

It appears that martianmister has usurped Luna_Mayflower as the official prophet of the GITP forums.

Also, 'best boomerang buddies' is adorable. :smallbiggrin:

[DavidSh]

This is not how physics work.

In the real world, boomerangs don't come back if they hit something, let alone hammers. So we can expect something unusual going on when weapons come back like that.

Though, if the hammer outweighs the thrower by a factor of 10, and the thrower is superhumanly strong enough to throw it, it might appear to be pulling him/her along.

[Squire Doodad]

In the real world, boomerangs don't come back if they hit something, let alone hammers. So we can expect something unusual going on when weapons come back like that.

Though, if the hammer outweighs the thrower by a factor of 10, and the thrower is superhumanly strong enough to throw it, it might appear to be pulling him/her along.

In D&D, or even most fantasy settings, things are magically altered to add functionalities that can't happen without advanced tech. Also, artistic license permits things like this to happen in some cases.
What you learn from a weapon returning to the owner is that there is a magical enchantment or enhancement that permits it to do so. Why? Because its magic. Don't be the guy who asks why a wizard could do it when a wizard did it (https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/11/02), because those questions tend to lead to themselves.
Bottom line: physics applies in fantasy settings, but magic takes precedence over physics, and plot takes precedence over magic. Plot-driven magic/physics take precedence over the other option.

[Fyraltari]

In the real world, boomerangs don't come back if they hit something, let alone hammers. So we can expect something unusual going on when weapons come back like that.

Though, if the hammer outweighs the thrower by a factor of 10, and the thrower is superhumanly strong enough to throw it, it might appear to be pulling him/her along.

I am sorry but that is just freaking dumb. If you have enough strength to throw something that is ten times heavier than you are then you have enough strength to jump that far. You would even go farther if you weren't carrying an object ten times your mass.

[MoiMagnus]

I am sorry but that is just freaking dumb. If you have enough strength to throw something that is ten times heavier than you are then you have enough strength to jump that far. You would even go farther if you weren't carrying an object ten times your mass.

To be fair, D&D characters tend to be particularly good at jumping when needed. Sure, not that much, but...

However, a more reasonnable way the hammer can work is "incoherent weight", which is the case for most superweapons in fantasy. The weight of the weapon oscillate between a "normal weight" (so roughly 3kg) and a something absurdly heavy.
That's how you can accelerate the hammer without difficulty, and then once it reached an appropriate speed, its weight is multiplied by 100 while keeping the speed (so highly increasing its momentum), so if you keep your hands on it instead of lauching it, you fly with it.

[Squire Doodad]

To be fair, D&D characters tend to be particularly good at jumping when needed. Sure, not that much, but...

However, a more reasonnable way the hammer can work is "incoherent weight", which is the case for most superweapons in fantasy. The weight of the weapon oscillate between a "normal weight" (so roughly 3kg) and a something absurdly heavy.
That's how you can accelerate the hammer without difficulty, and then once it reached an appropriate speed, its weight is multiplied by 100 while keeping the speed (so highly increasing its momentum), so if you keep your hands on it instead of lauching it, you fly with it.

So its like an implied version of psionically enchanted weaponry, where the weight shifts itself as it is used?

[Doug Lampert]

The dwarf they ran into at the inn in NCFTPB identified them as heirloom weapons. Since we now know that Aunt Shirra bought them for him when he became a cleric, it would seem that was a mistake on his part.

Nah, they were someone's heirloom weapons and armor, and then they were Durkon's, so they're his heirloom items.

See the Major General in Pirates of Penzance and his ancestors, who came with the house when he purchased it. :)

[Aaron L]

Bad.

Ass.

[Larre Gannd]

So its like an implied version of psionically enchanted weaponry, where the weight shifts itself as it is used?

Maybe there is a pocket dimension full of hammer material that can serve to make it denser as the hammer moves

[Peelee]

Maybe there is a pocket dimension full of hammer material that can serve to make it denser as the hammer moves

Would one be able to use Time Stop in this dimension?

[r2d2go]

Maybe there is a pocket dimension full of hammer material that can serve to make it denser as the hammer moves

You mean like some kind of... Hammerspace? :smallbiggrin:

[Pampukin]

Are silver dragons immune to malagolintomontorosis?
I have only watched that movie in spanish, and still got that reference, you are responsible for a very big smile today.

[Psychronia]

You mean like some kind of... Hammerspace? :smallbiggrin:
Magnificence.



For all we know the one we see in the panel is Sigdi, after she ended Hilgya, took her helmet and armor as a trophy and got her arm regenerated by Durkon. :smallcool:

Actually, that's an interesting line of thought. Is there any particular reason why Sigdri wouldn't come along to back the Order up? Reasons why, off the top of my head:

1. Sigdri is a certified badass, and age doesn't really do much to make you less so in this universe where a pregnant woman can dominate over trained assassins and house-cats disembowel normal human beings.
2. I'm pretty sure she's the type who would throw herself into danger without hesitation for the greater good, even if it only improves the odds of success by a single percent.
3. Dwarven afterlife rules basically encourage this exact behavior.
4. It gives Durkon the perfect excuse to expend a spell slot and regenerate her arm here and now instead of later. Sigdri also strikes me as the sort of person who would still refuse help when a spell can be better used to contribute to a greater cause.

I guess you could argue Kudzu, but I'm sure there's someone qualified to handle him for the duration of this battle, and I'd take Sigdri over Helga any day. Mama may have firepower, but Mom has your back.

[5crownik007]

Owwww!


Noooo! Not the likeable deathworm!

[blunk]

What's Hilgya doing, anyway?Harvesting Minrah's kidneys?

[JohanOfKitten]

If Belkar is getting in the strip at last moment, just to say he's about to throw up for the final pun, could we say he did a gag reflex? :smallbiggrin:

[ratfox]

I am sorry but that is just freaking dumb. If you have enough strength to throw something that is ten times heavier than you are then you have enough strength to jump that far. You would even go farther if you weren't carrying an object ten times your mass.

It doesn't necessarily follow: The physics are subtly different between throwing something and jumping. And ancient Greeks carried weights to help them jump further in competitions.

[warmachine]

If the worm is a Nightcrawler, which isn’t utterly black, it’s a CR 18 encounter. I’m not sure OotS is high enough in level for that.

[Leftour]

Must say that V prioritizing Gontor as a target (instead of dismissing/blasting the worm), taking a cone of cold fully in the face and succeeding his/her conentration check as a chap sums up to one of his/her most badass moments.

[Fyraltari]

It doesn't necessarily follow: The physics are subtly different between throwing something and jumping. And ancient Greeks carried weights to help them jump further in competitions.

First, source. Second it doesn't matter if the physics are simply different, it takes more force to move heavier objects, that's the Fundamental Principle of Dynamics (also known as Newton's Third Law*). By "throwing" an object ten times heavier than you are and not letting go, you are giving that system (ypu + object) an acceleration that requires eleven times more force than if it was just you reaching that acceleration (ie jumping). There are no subtleties that make that a good price to pay to reach the same result.

It also makes no sense in two other ways: to throw an object you apply force to it to give it acceleration, but the same force is applied to you (Newton's Second Law). The reason you don't move is because you are much heavier than the object. "Throwing" without letting go would just put yourself out of balance, which brings me to my third point:

You can't even hold an object heavier than you are at arm's reach without falling. Doing that moves your gravity center away from above your feet which means the weight of the "you + object" system isn't supported anymore and you fall. Doesn't matter how strong you are.


Bottom line if you want your characters to fly just have them break physics rather this nonsensical explanation.

mass times acceleration = sum of all forces applied

[5crownik007]

What's Hilgya doing, anyway?

Standing in the bottom right of panel 7 and probably trailing the others off panel.


Harvesting Minrah's kidneys?

Fortunately that's unlikely considering the combat situation. Besides, that's like stealing Likeable Deathworm's lunch! Or at least a small fraction of it.

[TRH]

If the worm is a Nightcrawler, which isn’t utterly black, it’s a CR 18 encounter. I’m not sure OotS is high enough in level for that.

Half the Order beat a Pit Fiend two books ago. I don't think CR matters much anymore unless it's really, really lopsided.

[Kish]

If the worm is a Nightcrawler, which isn’t utterly black, it’s a CR 18 encounter. I’m not sure OotS is high enough in level for that.
The Order is around 16th level, and the expectation is that a CR 16 encounter will cause four ECL 16 adventurers to use up 20% of their resources while winning handily; a CR 18 encounter is well within tolerances for six ECL 16 adventurers (and the Class and Level Whatever thread can bite me).

Of course, a CR 9 Young Adult Black Dragon gave the ECL ~12 Order quite a bit of trouble, so "could a standard party of adventurers using expected D&D tactics defeat a creature of that CR?" is really the wrong way to look at it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

First, source

http://ancientolympics.arts.kuleuven.be/eng/TC003EN.html
http://ancientolympics.arts.kuleuven.be/picEN/slides/P0067.jpg

I remember seeing it in Asterix in the Olympic Games, too, so I'm afraid I may need to take a point away from your French license.

Grey Wolf

[eilandesq]

If the worm is a Nightcrawler, which isn’t utterly black, it’s a CR 18 encounter. I’m not sure OotS is high enough in level for that.

If it's just the Order (without Minrah) party average level is probably 15-16, which would fall into the +2-+3 range (very difficult). However, CR is balanced for parties of five, and the Order has six members plus Hilgya present for a total of seven, including two with weapons that either are minor artifacts or are of similar power. I'd call it effectively a +0 encounter (challenging). It will slow them down and burn resources, but not directly threaten their lives. If Minrah is there, on the other hand, she will be in great peril, as the nightcrawler has ranged area effect attacks that are more than powerful enough to immediately threaten her life. Hopefully, the Order has a plan that lets her contribute to the team without getting her killed quickly.

[Skull the Troll]

This is not how physics work.



It is how magic works, at least in the case of Thor and Mjolnir.

[Resileaf]

http://ancientolympics.arts.kuleuven.be/eng/TC003EN.html
http://ancientolympics.arts.kuleuven.be/picEN/slides/P0067.jpg

I remember seeing it in Asterix in the Olympic Games, too, so I'm afraid I may need to take a point away from your French license.

Grey Wolf

Are the weights there to help the olympians jump further or to help them stay on their feet rather than land on their butt when they land? Or perhaps both?

[eilandesq]

The Order is around 16th level, and the expectation is that a CR 16 encounter will cause four ECL 16 adventurers to use up 20% of their resources while winning handily; a CR 18 encounter is well within tolerances for six ECL 16 adventurers (and the Class and Level Whatever thread can bite me).

Of course, a CR 9 Young Adult Black Dragon gave the ECL ~12 Order quite a bit of trouble, so "could a standard party of adventurers using expected D&D tactics defeat a creature of that CR?" is really the wrong way to look at it.

A dragon in its lair tends to be far more dangerous than its CR, and that dragon only lasted as long as it took for V. to get going (with a sharply curtailed spell arsenal at that).

[Jay R]

Now my PC wants to be best boomerang buddies with somebody.


Actually, that's an interesting line of thought. Is there any particular reason why Sigdri wouldn't come along to back the Order up?

Because she's sure Kudzu's mom feels better knowin' thar's someone in his life who knows how to take real good care o' him -- just in case she ev'r puts a scratch on Durkon again an' Granma Sigdi needs ta end her.


First, source.

"A major difference with the long jump today is that the Greeks held jumping weights or 'halters' of 1,5 to 2 kg in each hand. Thanks to these halters the athletes jumped further and landed more steadily. Experiments have shown that, with the modern jumping technique, the weighths reduce the length of the jump and hinder the run-up. Clearly the Greeks practiced a standing long jump, with their two feet together, in which case the halters do offer an advantage."
http://ancientolympics.arts.kuleuven.be/eng/TC003EN.html


Second it doesn't matter if the physics are simply different, it takes more force to move heavier objects, that's the Fundamental Principle of Dynamics (also known as Newton's Third Law*). By "throwing" an object ten times heavier than you are and not letting go, you are giving that system (ypu + object) an acceleration that requires eleven times more force than if it was just you reaching that acceleration (ie jumping). There are no subtleties that make that a good price to pay to reach the same result.

It allows you to use the power in your arms as well as the power in your legs. You are supposed to move your arms forward with the weights right before the leap. At the moment of takeoff, your body is moving as fast as your legs can propel you, but the weight is moving at that speed plus the speed of your hands relative to your body. That's more momentum to the system.

Then you throw them backwards while in the air, to push yourself farther forward.

"According to archaeological evidence, the athlete would swing the weights backwards and forwards just before take-off, thrust them forwards during take-off, and swing them backwards just before releasing them and landing. Halteres were made of stone or metal, and weighed between 2 and 9 kg (4 and 20 lb). (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halteres_(ancient_Greece))" [Wikipedia article, which cites Norman Gardiner, Athletics in the Ancient World, Dover, 2002]

[Resileaf]

Are the weights there to help the olympians jump further or to help them stay on their feet rather than land on their butt when they land? Or perhaps both?

And the answer is both! :D

Thanks, Jay R.

[KorvinStarmast]

And the answer is both! :D

Thanks, Jay R. And it sure beats thread drift to Star Wars. :smallsmile:

[Aveline]

And it sure beats thread drift to Star Wars. :smallsmile:

Yes, I had great fun puzzling through the unintuitive result of jumping weights.

[Fyraltari]

I remember seeing it in Asterix in the Olympic Games, too, so I'm afraid I may need to take a point away from your French license.

Grey Wolf
That's one of the few my grandmother does not own. :smallfrown:
I remember very little form it.

http://ancientolympics.arts.kuleuven.be/eng/TC003EN.html
http://ancientolympics.arts.kuleuven.be/picEN/slides/P0067.jpg


"A major difference with the long jump today is that the Greeks held jumping weights or 'halters' of 1,5 to 2 kg in each hand. Thanks to these halters the athletes jumped further and landed more steadily. Experiments have shown that, with the modern jumping technique, the weighths reduce the length of the jump and hinder the run-up. Clearly the Greeks practiced a standing long jump, with their two feet together, in which case the halters do offer an advantage."
http://ancientolympics.arts.kuleuven.be/eng/TC003EN.html



It allows you to use the power in your arms as well as the power in your legs. You are supposed to move your arms forward with the weights right before the leap. At the moment of takeoff, your body is moving as fast as your legs can propel you, but the weight is moving at that speed plus the speed of your hands relative to your body. That's more momentum to the system.

Then you throw them backwards while in the air, to push yourself farther forward.

"According to archaeological evidence, the athlete would swing the weights backwards and forwards just before take-off, thrust them forwards during take-off, and swing them backwards just before releasing them and landing. Halteres were made of stone or metal, and weighed between 2 and 9 kg (4 and 20 lb). (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halteres_(ancient_Greece))" [Wikipedia article, which cites Norman Gardiner, Athletics in the Ancient World, Dover, 2002]Oaky I didn't know that, thank you both very much, that is very interesting.
However, that is not what DavidSh and dtilque were talking about:

Though, if the hammer outweighs the thrower by a factor of 10, and the thrower is superhumanly strong enough to throw it, it might appear to be pulling him/her along.

Hold on to the strap (or put it around your wrist) and throw it without releasing. You go flying with the hammer. At least that's how I remember how comic book Thor flies from several decades ago. No doubt they've since retconned that so it's not the way he does it anymore.

But if you hold the strap (instead of the handle) while throwing and releasing, it should make the hammer fly faster. This probably does not work in D&D, though, since D&D largely ignores physics.
Also these athletes were definitely not using weights heavier than themselves.

[Jay R]

Yes, I had great fun puzzling through the unintuitive result of jumping weights.

It is fun. Most difficulty with understanding sports-related motions comes from the fact that we tend to over-simplify discussions of physics.

A common physics joke has a physicist trying to help a farmer. "First, assume a spherical, frictionless chicken in a vacuum."

That's how we examine physical effects -- by assuming a simple version which isolates that effect.

But the human body is not spherical, frictionless, nor in a vacuum. It is a complex machine with many moving parts, and there are always many different actions going on at once. Good coaches look for ways to use the complications of the human body for an advantage. This is how a high jumper can leap over a bar that is higher than the jumper's center of gravity ever rises. It's how a judo master can throw a person whom he couldn't actually lift.

When I teach fencing, I have to explain that the attack doesn't come from my body straight to yours; it comes from wherever my hand is, through whatever arc or line I send it through. [It's great fun to hit an opponent with a blow he knows he parried, simply by changing the angle of attack.]

[Jaxzan Proditor]

First, source. Second it doesn't matter if the physics are simply different, it takes more force to move heavier objects, that's the Fundamental Principle of Dynamics (also known as Newton's Third Law*). By "throwing" an object ten times heavier than you are and not letting go, you are giving that system (ypu + object) an acceleration that requires eleven times more force than if it was just you reaching that acceleration (ie jumping). There are no subtleties that make that a good price to pay to reach the same result.

It also makes no sense in two other ways: to throw an object you apply force to it to give it acceleration, but the same force is applied to you (Newton's Second Law). The reason you don't move is because you are much heavier than the object. "Throwing" without letting go would just put yourself out of balance, which brings me to my third point:

You can't even hold an object heavier than you are at arm's reach without falling. Doing that moves your gravity center away from above your feet which means the weight of the "you + object" system isn't supported anymore and you fall. Doesn't matter how strong you are.


Bottom line if you want your characters to fly just have them break physics rather this nonsensical explanation.

mass times acceleration = sum of all forces applied

While I agree with you that the physics of flying via hammer throw are silly, I do have to point out you’ve got Newton’s Laws backwards here. :smalltongue: The second law is F=ma and the third is equal and opposite reaction.

Also, things I love about the playground continued: learning more about physics and Ancient Greek long jumping.

[Fyraltari]

While I agree with you that the physics of flying via hammer throw are silly, I do have to point out you’ve got Newton’s Laws backwards here. :smalltongue: The second law is F=ma and the third is equal and opposite reaction.

Also, things I love about the playground continued: learning more about physics and Ancient Greek long jumping.

This is correct.

[Peelee]

That's one of the few my grandmother does not own. :smallfrown:
I remember very little form it.

Oaky I didn't know that, thank you both very much, that is very interesting.
However, that is not what DavidSh and dtilque were talking about:


Also these athletes were definitely not using weights heavier than themselves.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11128/111289255/6087324-3559045569-51316.gif

[Fyraltari]

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11128/111289255/6087324-3559045569-51316.gif
...
I'm going to assume he's not using nails.

[Peelee]

...
I'm going to assume he's not using nails.

It's a stone pillar, so I hope not!

He knocks a pillar out of a building, throws it, and jumps on top of it, because it would take too long to take a plane. Of course, this same world has both anthropomorphozed dinosaurs as well as animalistic dinosaurs, anthro and animal, well, animals, and hand lasers that blow up the moon (also a rabbit man living in the moon. I dint think they remembered him when they blew it up. Shame), so I don't think physics was a high priority.

[Fyraltari]

It's a stone pillar, so I hope not!
Oh, I thought that was a tree.


He knocks a pillar out of a building, throws it, and jumps on top of it, because it would take too long to take a plane. Of course, this same world has both anthropomorphozed dinosaurs as well as animalistic dinosaurs, anthro and animal, well, animals, and hand lasers that blow up the moon (also a rabbit man living in the moon. I dint think they remembered him when they blew it up. Shame), so I don't think physics was a high priority.

I mean nothing in your list is physic defying, strictly speaking. Gotta admit jumping on something you just threw is weird (and show-offy). It just sounds like you'd be pushing it off-course.

[Peelee]

Oh, I thought that was a tree.



I mean nothing in your list is physic defying, strictly speaking. Gotta admit jumping on something you just threw is weird (and show-offy). It just sounds like you'd be pushing it off-course.

He does it with a tree in DBZ.

Also, able to breathe and speak on the moon, as well as being able to gather enough energy to create an energy beam capable to blow up the moon (as well as the moons destruction not really having any deleterious effects for Earth) all seem pretty physics-defying. But my list was more supposed to be "here's a few ridiculous things, so ridiculous physics makrs just as much sense."

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Also these athletes were definitely not using weights heavier than themselves.

They are also not superhumanly strong. If you assume, as a hypothetical, a human capable of lifting and throwing something 10m, where m is their own mass, then it follows that if, after they throw it, they are still connected to it in some manner (in this case, an indestructible strap), they (or at least the body part attached to said item) will go along for the ride. We quickly get into "required secondary powers" and it gets truly silly (see also "if superman catches you as you fall down a building, it bisects you into three parts" discussions).

Now, Mjolmir in the MCU has an added characteristics: it has a will. It's mass is likely enormous, but it is irrelevant, in that it moves only when it wants to move (or rather, according to the joke/canon/headcanon/who knows which one it is at this point, it never moves, it just moves the universe around it). So if you want to spin it, and the hammer agrees, you spin it, giving it momentum. But if it doesn't want to move (because he's judged you unworthy), it doesn't. But if you hang it on a coat-hanger, it doesn't rip it off the wall, because it's a polite hammer. So yeah, of course physics doesn't apply. This is a polite hammer. Physics doesn't contemplate the politeness of the objects and how willing they are to disregard gravity.

Grey Wolf

[GreyTraveller]

It's a stone pillar, so I hope not!

He knocks a pillar out of a building, throws it, and jumps on top of it, because it would take too long to take a plane. Of course, this same world has both anthropomorphozed dinosaurs as well as animalistic dinosaurs, anthro and animal, well, animals, and hand lasers that blow up the moon (also a rabbit man living in the moon. I dint think they remembered him when they blew it up. Shame), so I don't think physics was a high priority.I'm reminded of a bit in the Ulster Cycle where Cú Chulainn throws three spears at three different targets, and then while the spears are still in the air, leaps from the ground to one spear, then to the second spear, then to the third spear, then leaps to the ground, draws his sword and kills one of his foes, while the three spears simultaneously strike three other enemies. (Celtic mythology has all kinds of over-the-top feats like this.)

[Fyraltari]

He does it with a tree in DBZ.

Also, able to breathe and speak on the moon, as well as being able to gather enough energy to create an energy beam capable to blow up the moon (as well as the moons destruction not really having any deleterious effects for Earth) all seem pretty physics-defying. But my list was more supposed to be "here's a few ridiculous things, so ridiculous physics makrs just as much sense."

Okay, I don't think you can terraform the Moon. (I'm no expert but I think that if it was massive enough to hold atmosphere together ti would have one already.)

Blowing up the Moon with a laser is an engineering challenge but it doesn't violate any physical law that I know of. Laser transmit energy, give something enough energy and *BOOM* it goes. Finding the necessary energy would be very hard though.

[Peelee]

Okay, I don't think you can terraform the Moon. (I'm no expert but I think that if it was massive enough to hold atmosphere together ti would have one already.)

Blowing up the Moon with a laser is an engineering challenge but it doesn't violate any physical law that I know of. Laser transmit energy, give something enough energy and *BOOM* it goes. Finding the necessary energy would be very hard though.

https://thedaoofdragonball.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/rabbit_gang_on_moon.jpg

[Fyraltari]

They are also not superhumanly strong. If you assume, as a hypothetical, a human capable of lifting and throwing something 10m, where m is their own mass, then it follows that if, after they throw it, they are still connected to it in some manner (in this case, an indestructible strap), they (or at least the body part attached to said item) will go along for the ride. We quickly get into "required secondary powers" and it gets truly silly (see also "if superman catches you as you fall down a building, it bisects you into three parts" discussions).
I mean yes but if you do that with an object heavier than you are, throwing your ams back with it, as the athletes apprently used to, would stop you. You'd have to let go of them at the very least.
Also I doubt the abality to use your arms' strength would compensate the need to use eleven times as much force

Now, Mjolmir in the MCU has an added characteristics: it has a will. It's mass is likely enormous, but it is irrelevant, in that it moves only when it wants to move (or rather, according to the joke/canon/headcanon/who knows which one it is at this point, it never moves, it just moves the universe around it). So if you want to spin it, and the hammer agrees, you spin it, giving it momentum. But if it doesn't want to move (because he's judged you unworthy), it doesn't. But if you hang it on a coat-hanger, it doesn't rip it off the wall, because it's a polite hammer. So yeah, of course physics doesn't apply. This is a polite hammer. Physics doesn't contemplate the politeness of the objects and how willing they are to disregard gravity.

Grey Wolf
So, what you are saying is that what actually happens is that Mjöllnir is flying of its own because it knows Thor wants it to, dragging Thor along who is only pretending to throw it?

That kind of make sense.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I mean yes but if you do that with an object heavier than you are, throwing your ams back with it, as the athletes apprently used to, would stop you. You'd have to let go of them at the very least.
So, don't? I'm really not sure what you are suggesting here. Can you jump further if you grab onto something that is going in the right direction? Yes. Given enough strength, can you throw something heavier than you? Yes. The issue here is not with the physics, but with the reality that we can't throw 10m items sufficiently fast or far. But I've certainly experienced the sensation of throwing an item I had forgotten I had strapped to my wrist and found myself being carried along for the trip. This is just that, but taken up to eleven.


So, what you are saying is that what actually happens is that Mjöllnir is flying of its own because it knows Thor wants it to, dragging Thor along who is only pretending to throw it?

Yes, but in theory, the momentum was added by Thor. The hammer allowed itself to be spun (by suppressing its own mass), and then allowed the accumulated angular momentum to be converted into lineal momentum, and after that, it stops suppressing its own mass and thus carries Thor along. And it did this, presumably, in such a way that it didn't rip Thor's arm out of its socket.

(All that said, the hammer itself has been shown to fly of its own accord, so it might just pick and choose when to do this or that)

Grey Wolf

[Skull the Troll]

Guess Durkon's new weapon is all but confirmed to be a hammer of thunderbolts now as it has a returning enchantment

I'm curious to see what causes Durkon to borrow Roy's Belt of Giant strength and get the full effect. I suppose its good it isn't on right now though considering they would all be deaf.

[tufttugger]

I think you misunderstand turn-by-turn gameplay mechanics. The rules directly state that all action during a round is meant to happen simultaneously in the game world, and a good DM is supposed to take this into account for the purposes of better storytelling even in a PnP game.

Gondula (or whatever everyone's calling him) and V may have the same init. They call their attacks, but when you have a tie init, the person with the higher Dex 'wins' and goes first. That could be the mechanical 'out' to make Gondula look like he dodged V's unsaveable spell.

[Jay R]

“Thor has a hammer that can call down lightning and thunder, create vortices, emit blasts of energy, and return to his hand when thrown. Nobody can lift it unless he or she is worthy. And he can also use it to fly, by whirling it and letting it carry him.”

“That’s dumb. It’s physically impossible to fly by hurling a hammer.”

[Fyraltari]

So, don't? I'm really not sure what you are suggesting here.
If I understand correctly the moves describe, the athlete pushes the weight as he jumps to gives them more momentum and then moves them back relative to him so that he can profit from said momentum. I'm saying that if you tried to do that with an object heavier than you are (assuming you manage to lift it without falling from having moved your center of gravity, something strength does not help you with so that's another issue to solve) moving the object back would move you back, unless you let go of it.

Can you jump further if you grab onto something that is going in the right direction? Yes. Given enough strength, can you throw something heavier than you? Yes. The issue here is not with the physics, but with the reality that we can't throw 10m items sufficiently fast or far. But I've certainly experienced the sensation of throwing an item I had forgotten I had strapped to my wrist and found myself being carried along for the trip. This is just that, but taken up to eleven.
You are not carried away, your center of gravity is shifted away from above your feet which makes you fall. The athlete trick works because as the object is much lighter than they are, the use of their arms' strength offsett the additional force needed. So unless the supeman in question has arms more than ten times as strong as their legs that's a dumb plan.




Yes, but in theory, the momentum was added by Thor. The hammer allowed itself to be spun (by suppressing its own mass), and then allowed the accumulated angular momentum to be converted into lineal momentum, and after that, it stops suppressing its own mass and thus carries Thor along. And it did this, presumably, in such a way that it didn't rip Thor's arm out of its socket.

(All that said, the hammer itself has been shown to fly of its own accord, so it might just pick and choose when to do this or that)

Grey Wolf
At this point there really isn't a reason to discuss the physics involved anymore.

I'm curious to see what causes Durkon to borrow Roy's Belt of Giant strength and get the full effect. I suppose its good it isn't on right now though considering they would all be deaf.
Roy still has his belt. :smallconfused:

[Fyraltari]

“Thor has a hammer that can call down lightning and thunder, create vortices, emit blasts of energy, and return to his hand when thrown. Nobody can lift it unless he’s worthy. And he can also use it to fly, by whirling it and letting it carry him.”

“That’s dumb. It’s physically impossible to fly by hurling a hammer.”
I never said it was impossible. Just that it would be more effective to use his goddam pair of functionning legs.

[Peelee]

I'm curious to see what causes Durkon to borrow Roy's Belt of Giant strength and get the full effect. I suppose its good it isn't on right now though considering they would all be deaf.
Why would the hammer come with gloves but not a belt?

I never said it was impossible. Just that it would be more effective to use his goddam pair of functionning legs.
Thor damned his own legs?!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

You are not carried away, your center of gravity is shifted away from above your feet which makes you fall. The athlete trick works because as the object is much lighter than they are, the use of their arms' strength offsett the additional force needed. So unless the supeman in question has arms more than ten times as strong as their legs that's a dumb plan.

No, what is doing is adding the strength of both arms and legs. You propel yourself with your legs and also at the same time you push your center of gravity forwards with your arms' strength. The link we gave you tells you as much: that in a standing jump, the weights, small as they are, do make a difference. Scale up both strength and weight, and they continue to make a difference, by essentially timing your jump for when you are imbalanced, so that the forces involved are additive, rather than cancelling each other.

Grey Wolf

[The MunchKING]

We can deduce from this that there is a inverse correlation between length of hair and martial might!

Beards, presumably, do not count.

So OOTS is a Reverse-Dragon Ball Z world?

[KrankenWagon]

Thor damned his own legs?!

That would explain why he throws his hammer and hangs on rather than just jumping himself

[Larre Gannd]

That would explain why he throws his hammer and hangs on rather than just jumping himself

Well, tell me this: what looks cooler: A god majestically soaring through the air, his hammer gleaming in front of him, or a god of thunder jumping from mountain to mountain, trying to touch the clouds?

[goodpeople25]

I thought it was just an excuse to get people decades later to giggle at unbreakable thongs.:smallwink:

[Jay R]

I thought it was just an excuse to get people decades later to giggle at unbreakable thongs.:smallwink:

No, it was just a way Stan Lee came up with to allow his superhero to get around quickly within the genre of a Norse hammer-throwing god.

[Riftwolf]

Speaking of massively heavy weaponry, isn't it a theme in Chinese Mythology too? I seem to remember Monkey and Pigsy's weapons being so ridiculously heavy only superbeings could wield them.

[Ruck]

The Order is around 16th level, and the expectation is that a CR 16 encounter will cause four ECL 16 adventurers to use up 20% of their resources while winning handily; a CR 18 encounter is well within tolerances for six ECL 16 adventurers (and the Class and Level Whatever thread can bite me).

And, in fact, it appears to be seven such adventurers right now.


If it's just the Order (without Minrah) party average level is probably 15-16, which would fall into the +2-+3 range (very difficult). However, CR is balanced for parties of five, and the Order has six members plus Hilgya present for a total of seven, including two with weapons that either are minor artifacts or are of similar power. I'd call it effectively a +0 encounter (challenging). It will slow them down and burn resources, but not directly threaten their lives. If Minrah is there, on the other hand, she will be in great peril, as the nightcrawler has ranged area effect attacks that are more than powerful enough to immediately threaten her life. Hopefully, the Order has a plan that lets her contribute to the team without getting her killed quickly.

Oh, you beat me to it. Well, I'll use this as a chance to suggest that Durkon actually hasn't resurrected Minrah yet, instead choosing his spells for today based on the expected conflict at the Council of Clans, and will do so tomorrow once this is all cleared up.

[Reboot]

Well, tell me this: what looks cooler: A god majestically soaring through the air, his hammer gleaming in front of him, or a god of thunder jumping from mountain to mountain, trying to touch the clouds?

A god riding a chariot pulled by two flying goats, of course!

[Besides, Hulk has the trademark on "traversing terrain with huge jumps" in the MU]

[Squire Doodad]

A god riding a chariot pulled by two flying goats, of course!

[Besides, Hulk has the trademark on "traversing terrain with huge jumps" in the MU]

I prefer to go with the 8-legged horse myself, much more fuel efficient.

[Larre Gannd]

I prefer to go with the 8-legged horse myself, much more fuel efficient.

Odin I think has the trademark on such a beast. Besides, why does it need 4 extra legs? Are they used as propellers?

[Quebbster]

Odin I think has the trademark on such a beast. Besides, why does it need 4 extra legs? Are they used as propellers?

So it can run on both land and air and never have to rest of course. When four legs get tired they can rest a bit.

[eilandesq]

Odin I think has the trademark on such a beast. Besides, why does it need 4 extra legs? Are they used as propellers?

Considering who that horse's parents were, a bit of genetic weirdness is probably inevitable.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleipnir#Poetic_Edda

[Bazounga]

Would the mist form be blocked inside the forcecage?

[Jannoire]

Probably yes, because the forcecage was used to protect the order from vampires some time ago, and the vampires made no effort to get into mist shape...

[eilandesq]

Would the mist form be blocked inside the forcecage?

In the solid version with no "bars," yes.

[Bazounga]

Thanks!
I forgot about the "no bars" version that was used before indeed.
(and Vaarsuvius would never had tried to use it if it had no chance of efficiency).

[Jannoire]

(and Vaarsuvius would never had tried to use it if it had no chance of efficiency).

I might be mistaken, but didn't V use Sleep on Z?

Edit : I am not mistaken...
the mighty duel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html)

[Riftwolf]

I might be mistaken, but didn't V use Sleep on Z?

Edit : I am not mistaken...
the mighty duel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html)

Early comic, joke, V was running out of spells and grasping at straws (also, probably forgetting things in a panic)

[Goblin_Priest]

That worm has DR magic AND silver, and immunity to cold. And huge SR.

Haley, if she has silver arrows, also relies on cold damage, which she won't get. Also sneak attack damage, which she won't get.

V's harmful magic is unlikely to work. And his support magic can be targetted by the at will dispel.

Roy and Durkon's weapons aren't silver, so they won't be super effective. Unless special rules make them count as silver for DR.

It's not just that this creature has high CR, but it's also that its abilities are pretty good against the party. It's able to summon undead reinforcements, too, which tend to share many useful defensive abilities.

[Riftwolf]

That worm has DR magic AND silver, and immunity to cold. And huge SR.

Haley, if she has silver arrows, also relies on cold damage, which she won't get. Also sneak attack damage, which she won't get.

V's harmful magic is unlikely to work. And his support magic can be targetted by the at will dispel.

Roy and Durkon's weapons aren't silver, so they won't be super effective. Unless special rules make them count as silver for DR.

It's not just that this creature has high CR, but it's also that its abilities are pretty good against the party. It's able to summon undead reinforcements, too, which tend to share many useful defensive abilities.

Rebuttal: Likeable Deathworm didnt say 'these attacks are sub-optimal against my tier!'
LDW said 'owwwwww!'
I'll believe LDW.

[Peelee]

Rebuttal: Likeable Deathworm didnt say 'these attacks are sub-optimal against my tier!'
LDW said 'owwwwww!'
I'll believe LDW.

This argument is sub-optimal against my tier!

[zimmerwald1915]

Rebuttal: Likeable Deathworm didnt say 'these attacks are sub-optimal against my tier!'
LDW said 'owwwwww!'
I'll believe LDW.
Roy and Durkon have enough strength, and their weapons enough damage dice and enhancements, to do damage even if they don't pierce DR. This is one of the advantages of high-strength, big-weapon martial builds.

[BriarHobbit]

I expect Likeable Worm to have some tricks. This should be an interesting fight.

[denthor]

That worm has DR magic AND silver, and immunity to cold. And huge SR.

Haley, if she has silver arrows, also relies on cold damage, which she won't get. Also sneak attack damage, which she won't get.

V's harmful magic is unlikely to work. And his support magic can be targetted by the at will dispel.

Roy and Durkon's weapons aren't silver, so they won't be super effective. Unless special rules make them count as silver for DR.

It's not just that this creature has high CR, but it's also that its abilities are pretty good against the party. It's able to summon undead reinforcements, too, which tend to share many useful defensive abilities.


Rebuttal: Likeable Deathworm didnt say 'these attacks are sub-optimal against my tier!'
LDW said 'owwwwww!'
I'll believe LDW.

Belkar Bitterleaf has not attacked yet. We do not know what properties his dagger has. It was made by Tarquin's crew.

Roy has a sword that does extensive damage to undead.

Durkon has a blunt weapon plus lighting very few undead have DR.

Likable Deathworm (my phone filled in deathworm? Should consider switching sides.

[Resileaf]

DR in Pathfinder can be beaten by a weapon with a high enough enhancement. I don,t know if it's the same thing in 3.5, but if it is, a +5 weapon will beat a silver DR.

[KorvinStarmast]

I expect Likeable Worm to have some tricks. This should be an interesting fight. One hopes so. I am looking forward to it.

[zimmerwald1915]

Belkar Bitterleaf has not attacked yet. We do not know what properties his dagger has. It was made by Tarquin's crew.
Yeah we do. It's a +5 collision dagger.

[Snails]

Roy and Durkon have enough strength, and their weapons enough damage dice and enhancements, to do damage even if they don't pierce DR. This is one of the advantages of high-strength, big-weapon martial builds.

Yes. Also Roy's weapon is also known to be very nasty against undead, so either that means extra damage to help blow through the DR or it helps negate DR altogether against such targets -- amounts to much the same in the end.

I doubt Wormy will be around long enough in this world for us to discover the details.

[Doug Lampert]

Roy and Durkon have enough strength, and their weapons enough damage dice and enhancements, to do damage even if they don't pierce DR. This is one of the advantages of high-strength, big-weapon martial builds.

True.

Thog power attack for 1d12+567 damage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0121.html) makes 15 DR look pretty minor by comparison.

[Goblin_Priest]

Roy and Durkon have enough strength, and their weapons enough damage dice and enhancements, to do damage even if they don't pierce DR. This is one of the advantages of high-strength, big-weapon martial builds.

DR applies to STR, though, right? So DR 15 is probably enough to negate his whole damage dice and his strength bonus.


Belkar Bitterleaf has not attacked yet. We do not know what properties his dagger has. It was made by Tarquin's crew.

Roy has a sword that does extensive damage to undead.

Durkon has a blunt weapon plus lighting very few undead have DR.

Likable Deathworm (my phone filled in deathworm? Should consider switching sides.

Though it's true that Roy's greeny thingy allows him to bypass SR. After all, it does look like he did actual damage. The death worm is not immune to lightning, so at least there's that, though he could possibly be negating the rest of the damage.


DR in Pathfinder can be beaten by a weapon with a high enough enhancement. I don,t know if it's the same thing in 3.5, but if it is, a +5 weapon will beat a silver DR.

I think that's just PF, iirc.


Yes. Also Roy's weapon is also known to be very nasty against undead, so either that means extra damage to help blow through the DR or it helps negate DR altogether against such targets -- amounts to much the same in the end.

I doubt Wormy will be around long enough in this world for us to discover the details.

Quite true, though he's still just one among many. Also, we've not seen them fight incorporeal enemies before, and that's the kind that the death worm can summon.


True.

Thog power attack for 1d12+567 damage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0121.html) makes 15 DR look pretty minor by comparison.

Roy isn't Thog, though. ;) Even with high starting strength, a good strength belt, and power attack, there are good odds for DR15 to block a good chuck of that, if not all (though probably not).

[Jasdoif]

DR in Pathfinder can be beaten by a weapon with a high enough enhancement. I don,t know if it's the same thing in 3.5, but if it is, a +5 weapon will beat a silver DR.I think that's just PF, iirc.3.0 had a similar "damage reduction hierarchy" concept; 3.5 removed it (and lowered DR values in general).

[Doug Lampert]

Roy isn't Thog, though. ;) Even with high starting strength, a good strength belt, and power attack, there are good odds for DR15 to block a good chuck of that, if not all (though probably not).

Class and Level Geekery gives Roy 29 Strength, I think their logic is off, but the value will be close to that, let's give him only 26 to be conservative: +12 damage from strength, +5 damage from enhancement, +7 on average from 2d6, +4 from weapon specialization and greater weapon specialization.

Roy averages 28 damage per hit prior to any power attack, critical hit, or the anti-undead properties of his sword. Haley, at best, does 13 damage for her d8 +5 longbow (no sneak attack, wormy is immune to cold), so even if she can pierce the DR, she's no better off than Roy is prior to power attack.

Durkon is slightly worse off than Roy in most ways, but gets 4d6 from the hammer and can stack two strength buffs. He also can't fail to penetrate.

Basically, Roy and Durkon are clearly best off to ignore the DR and just make their best attacks. Losing 15 damage per hit is a chunk, but it's not all that significant even with minimal values used for their damage, and Roy almost certainly has improved crit (he's a core only fighter, there just aren't that many decent feats to take), so there's an excellent chance he'll do ~56 damage prior to any power attack or anti-undead properties of the known to have anti-undead properties sword.

[Aveline]

Since we're talking about stats that don't necessarily matter, doesn't Durkon also have some kind of Preferred Enemy thingamabobber that grants various bonuses against undead foes?

[Jasdoif]

Roy averages 28 damage per hit prior to any power attack, critical hit, or the anti-undead properties of his sword.He'd need an anti-undead property to get a standard crit; I'm not sure separating them like that is warranted.


Since we're talking about stats that don't necessarily matter, doesn't Durkon also have some kind of Preferred Enemy thingamabobber that grants various bonuses against undead foes?If by "Durkon" you mean "Belkar", he certainly could.

[Leftour]

V's harmful magic is unlikely to work. And his support magic can be targetted by the at will dispel.



At will dispel? In that case V and Haley are in för some nasty falling dmg, the chasm looks deep, as per standard regulations of every self-respecting dwarven kingdom.

Unless V still remembers the value of feather fall.

[locksmith of lo]

A common physics joke has a physicist trying to help a farmer. "First, assume a spherical, frictionless chicken in a vacuum."


how about a spherical cow? :smallbiggrin:

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/028/752/Screen_Shot_2019-02-28_at_1.23.31_PM.png

[CriticalFailure]

Thanks I hate it

[Rogar Demonblud]

At will dispel? In that case V and Haley are in för some nasty falling dmg, the chasm looks deep, as per standard regulations of every self-respecting dwarven kingdom.

Unless V still remembers the value of feather fall.

The flight spell automatically feather falls you down when it ends.

[Aveline]

If by "Durkon" you mean "Belkar", he certainly could.

No no, I meant Durkon. I infer from #16 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html) and #34 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html) that he may have an attack bonus against undead. It's less explicit than I was remembering, but still.

[Leftour]

The flight spell automatically feather falls you down when it ends.

I stand corrected. My acrophobia was triggered in vain :smalltongue:

[Resileaf]

No no, I meant Durkon. I infer from #16 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html) and #34 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html) that he may have an attack bonus against undead. It's less explicit than I was remembering, but still.

He doesn't have attack bonuses against undead. Turn undead wouldn't work on a nightcrawler, and the +1 against goblinoids is a dwarf-specific racial feature.

[zimmerwald1915]

The flight spell automatically feather falls you down when it ends.
Not in OOTS, it doesn't.

[Kish]

No no, I meant Durkon. I infer from #16 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html) and #34 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html) that he may have an attack bonus against undead. It's less explicit than I was remembering, but still.
Dwarves get an attack bonus against orcs and goblinoids.

Neither dwarves nor clerics get an attack bonus against undead.

And really, that +1 to hit Redcloak is very unlikely to ever come up at this point.

[CriticalFailure]

Trying to convince Redcloak to listen to what they have to say while fighting him and Xykon:

“Hey, remember how much you hate orcs and goblinoids? You get +1 for that!”

Durkon: “ye really aren’t helping”

[Resileaf]

Dwarves get an attack bonus against orcs and goblinoids.

Neither dwarves nor clerics get an attack bonus against undead.

And really, that +1 to hit Redcloak is very unlikely to ever come up at this point.

Imagine though, Durkon throws his hammer at Redcloak and barely misses him. Redcloak gloats "Ha, you missed me!", and prepares to cast his final devastating spell... And Belkar shouts out: "Even with your +1 to hit against goblins, you missed?!"

Silence for a second. The returning hammer swings around and slams Redcloak behind the head.

[Reboot]

That worm has DR magic AND silver, and immunity to cold. And huge SR.

Haley, if she has silver arrows, also relies on cold damage, which she won't get. Also sneak attack damage, which she won't get.

Just checking - she doesn't get the cold damage itself, but the magic still counts toward DR/Au&M, right?

[zimmerwald1915]

Just checking - she doesn't get the cold damage itself, but the magic still counts toward DR/Au&M, right?
It does (though it's DR/Ag&M).

[Reboot]

(though it's DR/Ag&M).

*facepalm*

The worst part is that I thought about that as I typed it, and STILL got it back to front/

[understatement]

Imagine though, Durkon throws his hammer at Redcloak and barely misses him. Redcloak gloats "Ha, you missed me!", and prepares to cast his final devastating spell... And Belkar shouts out: "Even with your +1 to hit against goblins, you missed?!"

Silence for a second. The returning hammer swings around and slams Redcloak behind the head.

I think the beat panel would be legendary.

[Killer Angel]

Ouch.
That Forcecage was so close...

[Skull the Troll]

Why would the hammer come with gloves but not a belt?

I don't know (even that its really the item from srd20) but he's wearing the same belt before and after. I'm assuming he would have put it on if it came with one.

[Peelee]

I don't know (even that its really the item from srd20) but he's wearing the same belt before and after. I'm assuming he would have put it on if it came with one.

Old belt was brown with a buckle, new belt is blueish with no buckle.

[KorvinStarmast]

Old belt was brown with a buckle, new belt is blueish with no buckle.
He went from being an Autumn person to being a Winter person. :smallsmile:

[Peelee]

He went from being an Autumn person to being a Winter person. :smallsmile:

Ah, so you also passed the trials (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0711.html)?

[Hotu]

I'd like to nominate the hammer's strap as most useless feature on a magic item ever.
I mean, MCU Thor uses it to spin the hammer around, and it kinda looks like Durkon does the same here

[Tyrell]

The boomerang hammer was not something I expected. Though I guess it would make sense for an electric weapon to be some degree of magnetic.

[Hotu]

The boomerang hammer was not something I expected. Though I guess it would make sense for an electric weapon to be some degree of magnetic.
If we assume that it’s the “Hammer of thunderbolts” item, then it’s basically Mjolnir lite and would return magically

[Larre Gannd]

Imagine though, Durkon throws his hammer at Redcloak and barely misses him. Redcloak gloats "Ha, you missed me!", and prepares to cast his final devastating spell... And Belkar shouts out: "Even with your +1 to hit against goblins, you missed?!"

Silence for a second. The returning hammer swings around and slams Redcloak behind the head.

That would be awesome, but I feel like Elan would be the one to mention it.

[Rogar Demonblud]

The boomerang hammer was not something I expected. Though I guess it would make sense for an electric weapon to be some degree of magnetic.

Despite the name, it's not a shock weapon. It has a variant on the thundering ability though.

[Larre Gannd]

Despite the name, it's not a shock weapon. It has a variant on the thundering ability though.

I’m pretty sure that this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1154.html) contradicts that.

[Ghosty]

Despite the name, it's not a shock weapon. It has a variant on the thundering ability though.

Well, the RAW Hammer isn't, but this thing is sure crackling enough like it has some electric special sauce. Weird that the Giant didn't draw a strength belt along with the gauntlets and hammer when Durkon slid open the drawer. I've just assumed he had it with the art change and the new armor, post drawer-opening.

Would opening a hole on the council chamber's roof do anything beneficial for the Order? What if they could stand on a---petrified---full-sized Bloodfeast, while still being outside whatever colored concentric shell that would prevent the Order from entering the chamber? Thinking something like Roy/Durkon killing vamps while standing on Bloodfeast's head, outside the boundary of the shells, yet still able to throw their weapons within?

I'm glad the LDW hasn't taken the time to Haste itself, cast Deeper Darkness all over the place, or tried to Finger of Death the low-Fortitude save members of the party. Nor tried to sting any, or Mass Hold any, then play PacMan with their held/withered bodies.

Although, this would be a great way to write Hilgya out of the plot if the Giant chose. We've already established her Will save isn't the best. So Hold her, get swallowed by the LDW, then someone breaches the roof of the cavern, causing enough daylight that the LDW wants to burrow elsewhere. Like any broken rock at the base of the chasm.

Not that I think that will happen, but it sounds like a favored tactic of a Nightcrawler from RAW, and it dodges any pesky custody and child-rearing questions for Kudzu. "Your mother died heroically; here's Grandma Sigdi until Durkon finishes saving the world."

[F.Harr]

SO many ranged weapons!

Such a pair of jokers!

Owww! Poor worm.

[Larre Gannd]

SO many ranged weapons!

Such a pair of jokers!

Owww! Poor worm.

Whose side are you on!

I suppose the worm is too awesome for me to be happy it got hurt, though.

Carry on

[Resileaf]

I'm glad the LDW hasn't taken the time to Haste itself, cast Deeper Darkness all over the place, or tried to Finger of Death the low-Fortitude save members of the party. Nor tried to sting any, or Mass Hold any, then play PacMan with their held/withered bodies.


Jeez, give him a chance, this is the first round of the battle.

[Onyavar]

Or a luckier d20 roll for that save ...

Belkar's "Returning Breakfast {of Champions}" gets a grin from me.
Haley's dodge/evasion: you Rogue, girl! :smallsmile:


Is it OK that I would have called this strip "Second Breakfast", a reference to hobbits/LOTR and to Belkar's comment?

V got thrashed by the worm, what was its attack?

At least, the strip wasn't a third on the "Breakfast of Champions" theme.

Also, Belkar could join the attacks, right? He has a returning dagger unless I remember it wrong.

[NoHaxJustPi]

According to V, Belkar's dagger is +5 Collision. This brings it up to effective +7. It COULD have Returning on it (cost: +1 bonus), but he probably would have used it before. Also, Returning is magic, while Collision is psionic, and V said the dagger was a psionic item.

[Oxenstierna]

Wizard casts fly. Uses magic to float around defying the laws of nature. Commentary: ‘makes total sense’, ‘no problems here’.
Warrior gets magic hammer. Hammer enchanted to let warrior fly (possibly, comic book Thor), but definitely flies back to hand when thrown. Commentary: ‘OMG how does that happen!!!’ ‘Maybe magnets or something?’ ‘Wait using F = MA, and then is it a centripetal or centrifugal force?’ ‘Could be variable density?’...etc...

[Riftwolf]

Although, this would be a great way to write Hilgya out of the plot if the Giant chose.

Why would you want to write out Hilgya? Because she's evil? Feh.
I reckon 'LG father and CE baby momma having to put differences aside for the best of the kid with help of badass gran' is a much better story than Dead Mom syndrome.

[Peelee]

Why would you want to write out Hilgya? Because she's evil? Feh.
I reckon 'LG father and CE baby momma having to put differences aside for the best of the kid with help of badass gran' is a much better story than Dead Mom syndrome.

And I would be flabbergasted if that was the story the Giant chose to write:


Tarquin wants you (and Elan) to think that what he does is separate from who he is—that he's a fundamentally decent man who just so happens to murder a bunch of people here and there—because that's how he tricks you into slowly accepting his blatant Evil as a valid life choice that needs to be respected. Which it is not.

Some people want to love the villain without having to face the fact that villains are largely terrible people who do horrific things with deficient reasoning. Not on my watch.

[zimmerwald1915]

Why would you want to write out Hilgya? Because she's evil? Feh.
I reckon 'LG father and CE baby momma having to put differences aside for the best of the kid with help of badass gran' is a much better story than Dead Mom syndrome.
Not so much "storyline" as "sitcom premise."

[CriticalFailure]

Why would you want to write out Hilgya? Because she's evil? Feh.
I reckon 'LG father and CE baby momma having to put differences aside for the best of the kid with help of badass gran' is a much better story than Dead Mom syndrome.

I agree, co-parenting across the alignment divide is inherently entertaining.

[jwhouk]

Of course, if Gran is TN, it might make things interesting in the meantime.

[Rrmcklin]

And I would be flabbergasted if that was the story the Giant chose to write:

A lot of people seem to miss the whole point of "If you're evil, you can't just remove what that means from your role as a parent" Hence all the people going "It would be wrong to take Kudzu away from Hilgya just because she's evil and petty", which, I'm still sort of flabbergasted by, but also not really.

Well, there's also the sexism argument, something I don't find particularly valid in this case because it's clear the Giant's point applies regardless of gender ala Tarquin.

[Azazyll]

A lot of people seem to miss the whole point of "If you're evil, you can't just remove what that means from your role as a parent" Hence all the people going "It would be wrong to take Kudzu away from Hilgya just because she's evil and petty", which, I'm still sort of flabbergasted by, but also not really.

Well, there's also the sexism argument, something I don't find particularly valid in this case because it's clear the Giant's point applies regardless of gender ala Tarquin.

She is evil. That will eventually come into play with anyone she spends long enough with, including her child. At the very least, she will raise the child to be evil. It may not take, but would you expect her to do anything else?

Yes, there are parts of her worldview that are very positive, like resisting rigid social conventions and misogyny. That's why she's chaotic. But in the process she's shown that her solutions are excessively violent and vindictive. That's evil.

In my ideal comic future, she and Durkon bring out the best in each other in the process of raising their son, and Durkon comes to fight to change his society's rigid attitudes (which should be easier once they solve the whole "honorable death" theological problem, which I have to imagine is part of the Giant's calculations for the happy ending I am assuming we are getting) while she learns to stop killing everyone who pisses her off. Both of their alignments could change.

[understatement]

But the "If you don't like them, change them" message doesn't give off the best vibes either.