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Whiskeyjack8044
2019-04-01, 12:25 PM
I'd like someone with better Homebrewing skills to help flesh out an idea for a Psionic Mystic as a monk subclass rather than a stand alone class. The UA is already pretty similar to a monk with invocations, so I don't think it's too much of a stretch.

Basic ideas: Way of the Mystical Mind

Psychic Awakening
At 3rd level you choose 2 cantrips from Mage Hand, Thaumaturgy, Vicious Mockery, Thorn Whip, or Friends. The chosen cantrips require no Material, Verbal, or Somatic components. Your Mage Hand and Thorn Whip are Invisible, Thorn Whip now deals force damage. You may use Flurry of Blows after casting a Cantrip that requires an attack role.

Also at 3rd level, you know all spells of the Enchantment and Divination School. You may prepare a number of these spells equal to you intelligence modify. Every 5th level you take in this class you learn an Abjuration spell of your choice, this spell is always prepared and does not count against the number of spells you can prepare each day. Intelligence is your spell-casting ability. A 1st level spell cost 2 Ki points, each spell level past 1 cost an additional Ki point. When you cast these spells they require no Verbal, Material, or Somatic components.

Finally, at 3rd level you gain additional Ki points equal to your intelligence modifier.

Psionic Assault
At 6th level You gain a new attack option that you can use with the Attack action. This special attack is a ranged spell attack with a range of 30 feet. You are proficient with it, and you add your Intelligence modifier to its attack and damage rolls. Its damage is psychic.

After using such an attack, you may spend 1 ki point to cast Vicious Mockery as a Bonus Action, even if you do not know that cantrip.


Mental Fortitude
At 11th level when you cast a spell that requires a Wisdom, Intelligence, or Charisma saving throw, you can spend Ki points equal to the spells level to impose disadvantage on the saving throw.

Also at 11th level, you can spend 5 Ki points to give yourself resistance to psychic damage for 1 hour.

Unassailable Mind
At 17th level you are immune to the charmed condition and your mind can not be read unless you allow it. You can force a creature attempting to read your mind to make an intelligence saving throw, on a failure you can feed it false information.

Some Notes:
This was inspired by the new UA Artificer, the idea of flavoring spells as something other than magic, rather than creating a whole new system to do most of the same things, is a good one.

This isn't meant to scratch a nostalgic itch for the Mystic of pass editions, it's meant as a compromise. MANY monsters and races have Psionics being an important part of their identity, but Psionics are absent from the game. Rather than having a Player who wants to be a Gith Mystic multi-class Monk and Wizard, this is my attempt to create a viable and satisfying hybrid.

I looked at the Gith and Duergar races to try and match WotC's approach to Psionics.

Keeping up with spell-slots and Ki points seemed messy, hence spending Ki points to create spell-slots on demand.

It is MAD by design, the class isn't intended to be melee avoidance tank. You are a caster built on the bones of a monk. Int is going to be much more important in the long run than Dex or Wis.

I know psychic damage is really good, so I tried to nerf the monks damage output by replacing flurry of blows with Vicious Mockery.

Thorn Whip is flavored as a Telekinetic Pull.

Should they be half casters that cap out with 5th level spells, or since they can only prepare a max of 5 spells should the be able to progress all the way to level 8?

If we decide that a custom spell list is a better route than the Two School Plus route, what would that list look like?

I worry that the flavor isn't there until 6th level, should I swap the 3rd level spell casting feature and the 6th level Attack option feature?

Any feedback is most appreciated, even if it's just "This is cool" or "I hate this, and by extension, you". Thanks guys.

sandmote
2019-04-01, 02:13 PM
I've been working on such a monk subclass that uses the AU mystic class (https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/UAMystic3.pdf) as a base (progressing in psionics at 1/3 the rate a mystic does).

With the monk in particular, I've been torn between granting psi points as normal and allowing the monk to convert ki points into psi points (no action required).

The main problem that I see is that monks start with very few ki points, and end up with 20. So if you used ki points to fuel psionics in that manner, they would start crippled by any psionics they use, and end able to use more powers than anyone other than a single class mystic (given a few short rests). But if you grant psi pioints, the subclass is far stronger than every other monk subclass in a 5 minute adventuring day.

I realize this isn't relevant to your usage of "spellcasting as psionics," but I've been trying to work out psionic monk abilities myself and this is a good excuse for me to get my jumbled thoughts on the subject straightened out.



My thoughts on your subclass:

First, you're making the monk even more MAD, which is a bit awkward. Second, you should probably name the abilities your subclass grants.

At 3rd level, I would grants 1/3 spellcasting with the usual number of spells known for a 1/3 caster, but include a custom spell list (unlike most 1/3 casters, which choose from the wizard spell list but are partially limited to two schools). That reduces the need for you to grant additional ki points and the need for anyone playing this subclass to burn them. You can include vicious mockery as the only damaging cantrip on that spell list.

At 6th level, I would just grant the first feature, keeping it simple. Also, any monk that gets these features already has the extra attack feature. They get it the previous monk level.

Your 11th and 17th level subclass features look okay to me. One burns ki points while the other doesn't.

So I'd say you've got a good base there, but should streamline the way it is written out.

Whiskeyjack8044
2019-04-01, 03:27 PM
I'd say you've got a good base there, but should streamline the way it is written out.

Cleaned up somethings and added somethings based on your advice, I'm interested in what you might think would go on a custom spell list.

Man_Over_Game
2019-04-01, 04:21 PM
'Sup Jack!

There's a few things I do see. Mostly, it does need a little bit of cleaning up, as some of the wording can lead to some tragic munchkinisms.

Psychic Awakening:

I'd probably just change it to "Any visual effect of these cantrips is now invisible, and any damage they deal is now Psychic. If a Monk cantrip deals damage to a creature, you can use your Unarmed Strike or Flurry of Blows feature as a Bonus Action."

I would remove the whole "Enchantment/Divination" wording altogether, as this means you could play an Enchantment Wizard, dip 3 levels into Monk, and now gain access to spells that you wouldn't have had before. Rather, I'd just say that you could cast a Wizard Enchantment or Divination spell using Ki Points (which prevents you from being able to cast them using spell slots).
I would also remove the requirement to use a tertiary stat (in this case, Intelligence). The Monk already has to worry about Dexterity, Constitution, and Wisdom. Note that no other subclass in the game mentions more than two stats and Constitution. As you already have uses for Dexterity (Flurry) AND Wisdom, it's already MAD. Going further is just being a bit extreme.

As for the spell scaling, you'd be allowing the Monk to cast level 9 spells as early as Monk level 5 (with a maxed out modifier). Also note that the Monk can also regain his Ki points on a Short Rest. In a standard game, that's Power Word: Kill 3x a day. I'd probably follow the formula of Warlocks, something akin to:

Ki cost = Spell level x 2, up to Spell Level 5. This effectively makes them "Half-Warlocks", but with a TON more versatility. With something like this, though, I wouldn't add additional Ki Points without adding some kind of other power level restraint.

Psionic Assault: Looks...good, actually! It IS a bit bland, though. I'd probably make it so that you can cast a Monk cantrip that targets the same target as your Psionic Assault, which opens up Thorn Whip uses too.

Mental Fortitude: Doubled cost for Disadvantage seems fine. I'd just make it a blanket Resistance to Psychic Damage, though. It seems strong, but how relevant is Psychic Damage?

Unassailable Mind: The level 17 Monk abilities are generally really good. In this case, it's a bit weak and bland. I'd probably add on something like: You cannot be detected by enemies who must rely on more than normal vision to detect you.


To answer some of your other questions:

Psychic damage is good, but it's generally not better than good ol' fashioned high damage. Your version is good, but not too strong or anything.
I wouldn't say that a specialized spell list is needed. The Wizard basically covers the whole cynical, non-religious route of casting while having a diverse list from every school, so I'd just copy what the Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight did and steal from that.
I'd say that Enchantment and Divination is perfect for flavor. Don't worry so much, I think what you have is quite colorful.

sandmote
2019-04-01, 06:08 PM
Cleaned up somethings and added somethings based on your advice, I'm interested in what you might think would go on a custom spell list.

The names look good to me, but I fully admit I have no skill at naming.

I'm really not sure what would work on a custom spell list. The basic idea was that you could use one that includes spells from both divine and arcane classes if basing it off of the wizard spell list isn't something you want.


I would remove the whole "Enchantment/Divination" wording altogether, as this means you could play an Enchantment Wizard, dip 3 levels into Monk, and now gain access to spells that you wouldn't have had before. Rather, I'd just say that you could cast a Wizard Enchantment or Divination spell using Ki Points (which prevents you from being able to cast them using spell slots).


As for the spell scaling, you'd be allowing the Monk to cast level 9 spells as early as Monk level 5 (with a maxed out modifier). Also note that the Monk can also regain his Ki points on a Short Rest. In a standard game, that's Power Word: Kill 3x a day. I'd probably follow the formula of Warlocks, something akin to:

Ki cost = Spell level x 2, up to Spell Level 5. This effectively makes them "Half-Warlocks", but with a TON more versatility. With something like this, though, I wouldn't add additional Ki Points without adding some kind of other power level restraint.
Did not notice this. Definitely need to limit the max spell level the the sublcass can access (and I agree it should max out well before 9th level spells). Given you don't grant additional resources to cast spell with, the same progression as a half-caster is probably fine.

If you don't like a cost of spell level x 2, maybe use the same table sorcerers use for creating additional spell slots:

1st level spells cost 2
2nd level spells cost 3
3rd level spells cost 5
4th level spells cost 6
and 5th level spells cost 7


Psionic Assault: Looks...good, actually! It IS a bit bland, though. I'd probably make it so that you can cast a Monk cantrip that targets the same target as your Psionic Assault, which opens up Thorn Whip uses too.
That is more flexible. Not sure what I think about either option.


Psychic damage is good, but it's generally not better than good ol' fashioned high damage. Your version is good, but not too strong or anything.
I wouldn't say that a specialized spell list is needed. The Wizard basically covers the whole cynical, non-religious route of casting while having a diverse list from every school, so I'd just copy what the Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight did and steal from that.
I'd say that Enchantment and Divination is perfect for flavor. Don't worry so much, I think what you have is quite colorful.
I think wizards cover the basic theme well, but if you really want some sort of specialized spell list (like knowing all divination and enchantment spells in addition to a few abjurations ones) then actually writing out a list of spells help keep the subclass from being broken buy multiclassing between this and wizard.

Whiskeyjack8044
2019-04-01, 06:32 PM
Thank you for the feedback! Several good points. As much as I want to Die on the Intelligence hill, I can see how just being another wisdom caster make everything more streamlined.

The "know all spells" is just poor wording. I don't really know how to throttle access to higher level spells with out spell-slots. Maybe add something saying at 3rd level you can cast 1st and 2nd level spells, at 6th level you can cast 3rd and 4th, and at 11th you can cast 5th level spells and pick one 6th level divination or enchantment spell from any spell list. Maybe make Detect Thought or Shield an at-will spell at 17th level? Or what if we treated them like domain spells? Like: you made it to level 6, you now have these spells prepared always.

I'll make cleaning up the language a priority before I tweak anything else.

Man_Over_Game
2019-04-02, 10:09 AM
If you're worried about what stat you use, you could always go the route of the Battlemind in 4e: Constitution. They're effectively a psionic melee class that believes in their power so much that it allows them to push past mundane limits.

The Monk still needs to worry about Dexterity for attacks and Wisdom for Stunning Strikes, so it's still MAD. In fact, the added control/ranged effects are, in a way, LESS effective on a Constitution-based caster who'd prefer to be in melee combat.

----------------

With the Cost = Spell level x 2, that inherently limits the spell level that the caster can cast to match that of a full caster (with fewer spell slots). Take a look at the Warlock spell list, and compare it to what levels of spells the Monk can cast with this formula, and you'll note that they're identical (with the difference being the quantity of spell slots themselves).

sandmote
2019-04-02, 03:22 PM
Thank you for the feedback! Several good points. As much as I want to Die on the Intelligence hill, I can see how just being another wisdom caster make everything more streamlined.

The "know all spells" is just poor wording. I don't really know how to throttle access to higher level spells with out spell-slots. Maybe add something saying at 3rd level you can cast 1st and 2nd level spells, at 6th level you can cast 3rd and 4th, and at 11th you can cast 5th level spells and pick one 6th level divination or enchantment spell from any spell list. Maybe make Detect Thought or Shield an at-will spell at 17th level? Or what if we treated them like domain spells? Like: you made it to level 6, you now have these spells prepared always.
Both a set of Monastic Tradition spells and a table granting higher levels spells at certain levels sound good to me. Although I would grant spells in this manner at the same rate as a 1/2 caster gets them.


With the Cost = Spell level x 2, that inherently limits the spell level that the caster can cast to match that of a full caster (with fewer spell slots). Take a look at the Warlock spell list, and compare it to what levels of spells the Monk can cast with this formula, and you'll note that they're identical (with the difference being the quantity of spell slots themselves).
I'm concerned about how many ki points this would end up costing. losing most of your combat abilities for 1 5th level spell per short rest doesn't sound like an ability that would get used in very many situations.

Man_Over_Game
2019-04-02, 03:51 PM
Both a set of Monastic Tradition spells and a table granting higher levels spells at certain levels sound good to me. Although I would grant spells in this manner at the same rate as a 1/2 caster gets them.


I'm concerned about how many ki points this would end up costing. losing most of your combat abilities for 1 5th level spell per short rest doesn't sound like an ability that would get used in very many situations.

Your spell schools are Divination and Enchantment. You, more than anyone, get the most out of casting out of combat. Short Rests are also quite accessible out of combat. For example, you can cast Rary's Telepathic Bond (lasts an hour), spend a Short Rest and get your Ki back, now spend the remaining 30 minutes with telepathy with your team. Or just spend the day meditating while using Legend Lore while your teammates are out shopping and learn everything you can about your new location.

Or don't cast a level 5 spell and instead cast Tasha's Hideous Laughter 5 times.

That's why I recommend comparing this kind of system to the Warlock. The level 10 Warlock, for comparison, would be able to cast a level 5 spell twice per Short Rest before being out of resources. It's a similar circumstance.

Or, for another comparison, a level 10 Ranger has these spell slots:


4
3
2



A level 10 Druid has these:


4
3
3
3
2


The Druid has 6 more spell slots than the Ranger, all of higher spell slots. When including the power level of these higher level slots, the Ranger is roughly 1/2 the caster the Druid is. Similarly, my proposed Ki-cost would make the Monk 1/2 the caster the Warlock is.

Alternatively, you could just follow the prior formula you had (Ki cost = Spell Level + 1) and then just cap it so that you can only cast spells up to 1/2 of your Monk level (rounded down), up to spell level 5. This puts you at slightly slower progression than a normal caster as far as initial access goes (gaining level 2 spells at character level 4), but allows you to cast level 5 spells by spending 6 Ki points, which is very efficient. This would mean that you could cast two level 5 spells at level 12, where my example would require you to be level 20.

Whiskeyjack8044
2019-04-03, 01:25 AM
Way of the Mystical Mind 2.5
Through deep meditation Monks of the Mystical Mind have unlocked the secret potential of the mind. They harness the mysterious power of Psionics to harm and debilitate enemies, as well as interact with the world through force of Will.

Psychic Awakening
Starting when you choose this tradition at 3rd level, you learn to weild your mind as a weapon.

Choose 2 cantrips from Mage Hand, Thaumaturgy, Vicious Mockery, Thorn Whip, or Friends. The chosen cantrips require no Material, Verbal, or Somatic components. Your Cantrips create no visual or auditory effects if they require an attack or saving throw. The damage is psychic. You may use Flurry of Blows after casting a Cantrip that requires an attack or saving throw.

Also at 3rd level, you can prepare spells from the Wizard spell list of a level equal to half your Monk level rounded down up to level 5. These spells must come from the Divination or Enchantment Schools. You may prepare a number of these spells equal to your Wisdom modify. Wisdom is your spell-casting ability. A 1st level spell cost 2 Ki points, each spell level past 1 cost an additional 1.5 Ki point rounded down. When you cast these spells they require no Verbal, Material, or Somatic components.

Psionic Assault
At 6th level You gain a new attack option that you can use with the Attack action. This special attack is a ranged spell attack with a range of 30 feet. You are proficient with it, and you add your wisdom modifier to its attack and damage rolls. The attack uses your martial arts die and its damage is psychic.

After using such an attack, you may spend 1 ki point to cast a Monk Cantrip as a Bonus Action. Your Cantrip's damage die is replaced by your martial arts die.

Mental Fortitude
At 11th level you harness your mental strength to inflict your will and protect yourself. When you cast a spell that requires a Wisdom, Intelligence, or Charisma saving throw, you can spend Ki points equal to the spells level to impose disadvantage on the saving throw.

Also at 11th level, you gain resistance to psychic damage.

Unassailable Mind
At 17th level your mind becomes an impregnable fortress. You are immune to the charmed condition and your mind can not be read unless you allow it.

Also at 17th level, when you are attacked by a creature you can use your Reaction to cast Vicious Mockery, replacing the d4 with your Martial Arts die. You must use this Reaction before the attacker rolls to hit.

Some Notes (2.0):

I'm really worried about this class being over powered now. I know most Homebrews tend to be over powered or too feature heavy, I'd like to avoid that trap if I can.

Basicly I'm trying to incentivize giving up 1 attack for imposing disadvantage or moving them 10 ft.

I scrapped the extra Ki Point idea so as not to contradict the chart in the player's handbook.

I kind of hate the 1.5 Ki thing. I don't think the player's handbook uses fractions at all for any other feature. I want to keep this as close to the player's handbook if I can.

I really appreciate both of your feedback, I feel like this is our subclass rather than mine alone.

sandmote
2019-04-03, 06:05 PM
Your spell schools are Divination and Enchantment. You, more than anyone, get the most out of casting out of combat. Short Rests are also quite accessible out of combat. For example, you can cast Rary's Telepathic Bond (lasts an hour), spend a Short Rest and get your Ki back, now spend the remaining 30 minutes with telepathy with your team. Or just spend the day meditating while using Legend Lore while your teammates are out shopping and learn everything you can about your new location.
By RAW, you still need a full short rest to get your ki points back. You just need to spend at least 30 min of the rest meditating.


The Druid has 6 more spell slots than the Ranger, all of higher spell slots. When including the power level of these higher level slots, the Ranger is roughly 1/2 the caster the Druid is. Similarly, my proposed Ki-cost would make the Monk 1/2 the caster the Warlock is.

Alternatively, you could just follow the prior formula you had (Ki cost = Spell Level + 1) and then just cap it so that you can only cast spells up to 1/2 of your Monk level (rounded down), up to spell level 5. This puts you at slightly slower progression than a normal caster as far as initial access goes (gaining level 2 spells at character level 4), but allows you to cast level 5 spells by spending 6 Ki points, which is very efficient. This would mean that you could cast two level 5 spells at level 12, where my example would require you to be level 20.
The sorcerer point progression is 7 points for a level 5 spell, but I see what you mean. I'm also slightly concerned you've taken time to show half casters are roughly half the casters that full casters are.

However, warlocks get dedicated spell slots, while you're using ki points for this. You're already using ki points for base class features, so it isn't quite equal. I see your point, and there should probably be a limit on when the monk can start casting spells of a certain level, but it isn't quite equal to 1/2 pact magic.


Also at 3rd level, you can prepare spells from the Wizard spell list of a level equal to half your Monk level rounded down up to level 5. These spells must come from the Divination or Enchantment Schools. You may prepare a number of these spells equal to your Wisdom modify. Wisdom is your spell-casting ability. A 1st level spell cost 2 Ki points, each spell level past 1 cost an additional 1.5 Ki point rounded down. When you cast these spells they require no Verbal, Material, or Somatic components.


Some Notes (2.0):

I'm really worried about this class being over powered now. I know most Homebrews tend to be over powered or too feature heavy, I'd like to avoid that trap if I can.

Basicly I'm trying to incentivize giving up 1 attack for imposing disadvantage or moving them 10 ft.

I scrapped the extra Ki Point idea so as not to contradict the chart in the player's handbook.

I kind of hate the 1.5 Ki thing. I don't think the player's handbook uses fractions at all for any other feature. I want to keep this as close to the player's handbook if I can.

I like tables, particularly because they let you show the figures without needing fractions.. Here's the different costs being suggested by spell level:



Spell Level
Sorcerer
x1.5 ki points
x2 ki points


1st
2
2
2


2nd
3
3
4


3rd
5
5
6


4th
6
6
8


5th
7
8
10



Having written that out, the ki cost for the 2+1.5(X-1) table might be closer to what you want than the table based on the cost of sorcerer points. I'd still have a table instead of a formula though.


Some Notes (2.0):

I'm really worried about this class being over powered now. I know most Homebrews tend to be over powered or too feature heavy, I'd like to avoid that trap if I can.

Basicly I'm trying to incentivize giving up 1 attack for imposing disadvantage or moving them 10 ft.

I scrapped the extra Ki Point idea so as not to contradict the chart in the player's handbook.

I kind of hate the 1.5 Ki thing. I don't think the player's handbook uses fractions at all for any other feature. I want to keep this as close to the player's handbook if I can.
To harp on it, the player's handbook avoids fractions by using tables instead. The rest of the build looks fine to me.