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View Full Version : D&D 3.x Class Monarch of the Damned (A Dread Necromancer-based Theurge PrC)



Giegue
2019-04-01, 05:59 PM
True Necromancer kinda blows. This is a well known fact. However, the idea of a necromancy-focused theurge PrCs is infinitly cool in my head, so I decided to brew one up myself that was what a Necromancer-theurge should be, in my eyes. It gets some powerful features compared to other theurges, but does so at the cost of having a rather poor entry, and limiting your arcane side to being strictly Dread Necromancer. The entry the class demands in paticular is Dread Necromancer 3/Prepared Divine Caster 1, which at 5th level leaves you just starting to get 2nd level Dread Necro spells when everybody else has 3rd level spells by this point. I hope that this combined with the a horrible feat tax (undead empathy) required to enter the class and it’s d4 HD will help to balance out the fact a theurge has actual class features, though I am not sure they fully do. As a result, any and all help with balancing this would be most appreciated! I also added a more unique fluff to the class as well, so its not simply "I'm the ultimate necromancer!"...it was made to both mechanically and thematically be more interesting as well as more effective than TN. So, without further discussion, the class is here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1t9sehxAz7QnBdt62MSm9txEh6K84rQ1ZsXKHTFylNto/edit?usp=sharing).

As always, any and all comments are appreciated!

TheYell
2019-04-01, 09:55 PM
Minor correction: The King of the Damned entry refers to a Duke of the Damned power, when you don't have one with that name.

Why only a d4 hit die?

Giegue
2019-04-02, 04:57 AM
The d4 HD is because it a theurge with good class features. However, if you think the features don’t warrent the d4, it could easily be bumped up to a d6 with little issue, I think.

TheYell
2019-04-02, 10:21 AM
Personally I think a D4 cripples the class. If you have a very powerful magical class there are counters to it; you don't need to make it deliberately weaker than a normal wizard IMHO.

You've made a thorough and consistent powerful necromancer class; I think there are plenty of counters for fighting undead baked into the game so a DM could give a PC a challenge, or, conversely a party could develop a strategy to take down a NPC BBEG of this class. I wouldn't weaken it with lower HP.


If I could get into an evil campaign this would be an interesting build!

Giegue
2019-04-02, 10:43 AM
The Mystic Theurge and Wizard both use a d4 though, and unlike the mystic theurge this gets class features other than it dual progression. Yes, it can only specificly be Dread Necromancer on its Arcane side while Mystic Theurge can be any arcane and any divine, but I’m still not sure that warrants a HD upgrade over MT since this also gets actual good class features. Regardless, I made a few edit, so I would appreciate a second glance.

TheYell
2019-04-02, 10:49 AM
I like it, it has a good range of powers and a definite flavor of its own.

JoshuaZ
2019-04-02, 10:59 AM
Personally I think a D4 cripples the class. If you have a very powerful magical class there are counters to it; you don't need to make it deliberately weaker than a normal wizard IMHO.

You've made a thorough and consistent powerful necromancer class; I think there are plenty of counters for fighting undead baked into the game so a DM could give a PC a challenge, or, conversely a party could develop a strategy to take down a NPC BBEG of this class. I wouldn't weaken it with lower HP.


If I could get into an evil campaign this would be an interesting build!

In 3.5, the d4 is standard for full casting classes. You may be thinking of Pathfinder where the d6 is standard.

PairO'Dice Lost
2019-04-02, 07:08 PM
Regarding PrC HD determination: In general, PrCs tend to stick with HD (and skill points, though that's not germane here) of intended entry classes--PrCs intended for fighters get d10s, PrCs intended for clerics get d8s, and PrCs intended for wizards get d4s--unless they're supposed to blur the line between multiple classes (like theurging, or making a wizard gishy or giving a rogue casting), in which case the HD will generally go up or down a step.

The Mystic Theurge has a d4 because its intended entry is wizard/cleric, and it stuck with the lower HD because it was playing it safe due to being the first multi-casting PrC published, not because it was deliberately trying to balance out class features with low HD or anything. The True Necromancer and Jade Phoenix Mage both are theurges with good class features and an intended wizard entry, and they both have a d6 because they split the difference between a d4 wizard and a d8 cleric or swordsage with their intended entries. In this particular case, a dread necromancer is a gishy arcanist with d6 HD and a cleric is a gishy priest with d8 HD, so going below d6 doesn't make sense and even going with a d8 would be reasonable.

Comments on the actual class:

1) The Prerequisites are somewhat redundant. Requiring Negative Energy Burst means you have to be at least a Dread Necromancer 3/Cleric 1 to get in, so there's no need to also stipulate "1st-level arcane casting" and "ability to cast a Necromancy spell in your arcane class" because those come automatically with the 3 Dread Necro levels. Also, requiring 7 ranks of Knowledge (Religion) would make more sense than 6, but that's a nitpick.

2) Undying Beauty is pretty convoluted. It makes them look young as a side effect of being quasi-undead even though negative energy is an entropic decaying force, and then the undead-themed youth doesn't come with any sort of unnatural bloodless vampiric look or "well-preserved" lich look; then, they count as the worse of both types for undead-affecting effects, except for Necromantic effects which includes most undead-affecting effects, and on top of everything it makes them heal as an undead creature when every serious Dread Necromancer took Tomb-Tainted Soul a long time ago. Bunch of crossed wires and epicycles there.

I'd change it as follows:


Undying (Su): The combination of dark magics the Monarch wields causes her to take on the agelessness of undeath. When she gains her 1st Monarch level she may alter the balance of positive and negative energy in her body to change her age and appearance as desired, from youthful beauty to silver-haired refinement, and from then on she no longer ages and is immune to natural and magical aging. This infusion of negative energy causes her to take damage from positive energy and heal from negative energy as if she were an undead creature, and she is treated as an undead creature for the purposes of effects that specifically target living or undead creatures.

That straightens out the theming and simplifies the mechanical interactions. Yes, it means the Monarch can be turned or rebuked, but so can a dread necromancer who becomes a Necropolitan, and counting as undead but retaining Con to HP is pretty nice on its own.

3) Chessmaster's Hand could probably use a HD and/or Int minimum for which undead can be communicated with and scried upon. Being able to flood a city with undead rats or crows and have every last inch of it under surveillance is very thematic, but also incredibly powerful. Needing to use higher-HD or -Int minions, like with undead lieutenant, restricts things to key agents and reins in the power, without losing the "I have eyes everywhere" utility.

Other than that, the PrC looks good. Definitely on the stronger end, with good class features every level and no lost casting, but it's focused enough (and loses enough cleric spellcaster levels) that it's not over-the-top.

Giegue
2019-04-02, 07:57 PM
Thanks for all the feedback, it was really helpful and I applied most of the changes. However, that being said putting a hard Int limit on the entirety of the Chessmaster's hand would make it nigh useless at the level you get it, since you can't create intelligent undead at that point and would need to get lucky and find some to rebuke or use Dominate Person on with Edict of the Monarch to even get use out of that feature. However, your points are valid, so I decided to go with a compromise route; the part that makes it too good is the scrying effect, as that lets you use your undead as spy-eyes from anywhere you want. The telepathic commands part, while good, dose not really make them effective spies since it doesn't let the undead communicate back, and thus I only put an intelligence minimum on the scrying aspect of the feature and kept the ability to give telepathic commands to any undead, including mindless ones, from any distance. This means yes, you could order a bunch of undead rats into a city, but you have no way of using them as a spy network unless they physically report back to you, which could take days or even months depending on how far you are from them, rendering any kinds of spy tactics useless since by the time they get back to you the enemy has already moved forward with their plans. You'd have to stay in the city you wanted them to spy for you in, which you could already do normally anyway. So I felt this was a good compromise on the feature; it starts out being useful but not overly powerful, and then becomes a lot better once you get your Create Undead SLA.

Also, while cleric is the referenced entry, the actual best entry for this class is archivist; mainly because your already getting rebuke from Dread Necro anyway (which works as a cleric of your character level thanks to this class), and archivist allows you to prepare and cast spells like Dominate Person and Monstrous Thrall that can be used to enslave intelligent undead with Edict of the Monarch as normal spells, instead of hard 1/day domain spells. Granted, a cleric with, say, the domination domain can still get those spells, but they will be hard 1/days for them. So if your GM is willing to let your archivist for spells like dominate person, greater dominate, and monstrous thrall, Dread Necro/Archivist is the best entry to the class. However, if they are not that generous, then you probably want to enter as a Dread Necromancer/Cloistered Cleric with the Domination domain and Divine Magician ACF replacing the knowledge domain, to get access to a few key arcane necromancy spells you'll be missing due to not getting advance learning. While its probably best to do this as a philosophy cleric or with a homebrew deity, if your playing with actual D&D gods Tiamat can get you the Domination domain and Evil domain, which allows you to qualify for the class....and her LE nature and focus on wealth plays well with the fluff of the class.


...and I've went on for far too long about this class. I am now egear to play the heck out of it.

PairO'Dice Lost
2019-04-02, 08:27 PM
Thanks for all the feedback, [...] I decided to go with a compromise route; the part that makes it too good is the scrying effect, as that lets you use your undead as spy-eyes from anywhere you want. The telepathic commands part, while good, dose not really make them effective spies since it doesn't let the undead communicate back, and thus I only put an intelligence minimum on the scrying aspect of the feature and kept the ability to give telepathic commands to any undead, including mindless ones, from any distance.

Very reasonable.


Also, while cleric is the referenced entry, the actual best entry for this class is archivist; mainly because your already getting rebuke from Dread Necro anyway (which works as a cleric of your character level thanks to this class),

I'd say cleric is still a slightly better entry. As far as rebuking goes, while you stack effective levels for rebuking checks you still retain both classes' rebuking pools, and having 6 + 2*Cha rebuke attempts means you can spam them against hordes of weaker undead to control as many as possible, get some extra chances to control particularly powerful undead near the top of your HD limit to control, save some for actual rebuking and use the rest on [Divine] feats., and so forth.

For spellcasting, you don't need to start relying on mind-control spells over rebuking until high levels, when many undead have turn resistance and the HD bloat starts kicking in. It's not really likely that a high-level Monarch would need more than the 6 control spells you get per day by prepping dominate person in your 4th- through 7th-level slots and true domination and monstrous thrall in their own slots. The archivist, meanwhile, can spend more slots on undead-controlling spells in theory but still has to actually track them down in divine form, since he can't automatically learn domain spells that aren't on the cleric list at level-up and scrolls of high-level spells from non-core domains aren't necessarily common.

And of course archivist is Int/Wis while cleric is Wis/Cha and dread necro is Cha, so at low levels before Applied Practice kicks in, an archivist/dread necro having to have moderate to high scores in all three mental stats to get the best use out of all your spells is a real pain, as opposed to a cleric/dread necro who can go Cha-primary and cast mostly buffs on the cleric side that don't care about Wis-based save DCs until he can pivot to offensive spells once he goes Cha SAD.

Giegue
2019-04-02, 08:48 PM
True, and you use your character level as your effective cleric level for your rebuke undead thanks to Dread Knowledge, so regardless of what classes you take after monarch your always rebuking at full power. Of interesting note on this class is that its nature as a theurge gives it arguably the most undead controlled in the game, by virtue of having three separate control pools for Animate Dead, all of which get the control pool expansion bonuses. Granted, you get this control boost a LOT later than a straight classed cleric, and from character levels 5-7 your strictly worse than a deathbound domain cleric at animate dead. However, once you get animate dead on your divine side at character level 8 you surpass the cleric just by virtue of having two control pools, and then at 9th level when you get your first control pool boost and your Dread Necro animate dead you are pretty much the best necromancer in the game as far as number of undead controlled is concerned. However, DN has you beat on defensive power and melee ability, while both cleric and Dn have higher level, and therefore better, spells than you. Likewise, if the cleric is not cloistered and has DMM: Persist he also outdoes you in melee...so in the end it balances out. While you pay a price, the payoff is more undead than anybody else, and at the height of your power access to both 9th level Dread Necromancer spells and 9th level Cleric spells if you finish off your build with Mystic Theurge...which was the intent of the class.

I kind of like how this is the "caster" answer to the necro-gish that is the cleric/bone knight, and I could see a lot of fun coming from a party with a Dread Necro/Cloistered Cleric/Monarch of the Damned and her loyal Cleric/Bone Knight guardian as an RP concept. Would be two fun members of an evil party, for sure, espcially since the cleric/bone knight's marshal undead power would let the monarch delegate control of some of her ridiculously large hoard to the cleric/bone knight.