True Polymorph Greater Steed

[Errata]

I had some questions about the interactions of True Polymorph with the mount from a Find Greater Steed spell, and was curious how others would interpret the rules. My understanding is that you can use True Polymorph to turn a CR2 mount into any other CR2 creature, and make it "permanent". It changes their game statistics, but being your mount is a spell effect, which is not dispelled by polymorph, so they still behave as your steed. There are some interesting CR2 creatures, but most of them are medium or smaller, which limits their usefulness as a mount for a medium PC. I believe that when the steed dies or is dismissed, then when it is resummoned, it will be in its original form, with spell effects like Polymorph gone.

Another CR2 creature is Intellect Devourer. If you polymorph your mount to that, could you feed it an incapacitated mid level enemy humanoid, and have it steal it's game statistics, including CR rating? Then True Polymorph it again the next day into an adult dragon, which still serves as your Greater Steed, until killed or dismissed? Are any of the steps in that chain of events against the rules as written and/or intended?

Is there any rule that would prevent a permanently True Polymorphed creature be the target of regular Polymorph and then turning back into their True Polymorph form when it expires? How about being targeted by another non-permanent True Polymorph spell. Would the same spell override the permanent one and revert them to their original form when it expires? If it overrides it, might that be a reason that the intellect devourer trick doesn't work, since they are reverted to their original CR by the second cast of True Polymorph?

[Sigreid]

Honestly, if I were the DM of a player that tried your intellect devourer trick, I'd look at them and say "stop being a @#$%".

[JoeJ]

I had some questions about the interactions of True Polymorph with the mount from a Find Greater Steed spell, and was curious how others would interpret the rules. My understanding is that you can use True Polymorph to turn a CR2 mount into any other CR2 creature, and make it "permanent". It changes their game statistics, but being your mount is a spell effect, which is not dispelled by polymorph, so they still behave as your steed. There are some interesting CR2 creatures, but most of them are medium or smaller, which limits their usefulness as a mount for a medium PC. I believe that when the steed dies or is dismissed, then when it is resummoned, it will be in its original form, with spell effects like Polymorph gone.

Another CR2 creature is Intellect Devourer. If you polymorph your mount to that, could you feed it an incapacitated mid level enemy humanoid, and have it steal it's game statistics, including CR rating? Then True Polymorph it again the next day into an adult dragon, which still serves as your Greater Steed, until killed or dismissed? Are any of the steps in that chain of events against the rules as written and/or intended?

Is there any rule that would prevent a permanently True Polymorphed creature be the target of regular Polymorph and then turning back into their True Polymorph form when it expires? How about being targeted by another non-permanent True Polymorph spell. Would the same spell override the permanent one and revert them to their original form when it expires? If it overrides it, might that be a reason that the intellect devourer trick doesn't work, since they are reverted to their original CR by the second cast of True Polymorph?

If you're thinking about the intellect devourer's Body Thief ability, it doesn't become that other creature. It just rides inside the dead body and controls it. If you want to use TP you'd have to decide whether you're targeting the devourer (which is still CR 2), or the body (which is an object).

[Errata]

If you're thinking about the intellect devourer's Body Thief ability, it doesn't become that other creature. It just rides inside the dead body and controls it. If you want to use TP you'd have to decide whether you're targeting the devourer (which is still CR 2), or the body (which is an object).

I'm not sure the target of Body Thief is technically dead. It specifically happens to an incapacitated target, refers to what happens if the body were to die, and says that the body dies after the intellect devourer chooses to leave it. It also says that it "adopts the target's statistics", as opposed to something like dominate person, where it is worded much differently and you merely control the target's actions.

However, I do think this corner case requires a judgement call from the DM, and it would be reasonable to rule that you polymorph the still alive victim of Body Thief into a new form with an intact brain, and eject the intellect devourer.

[JoeJ]

I'm not sure the target of Body Thief is technically dead. It specifically happens to an incapacitated target, refers to what happens if the body were to die, and says that the body dies after the intellect devourer chooses to leave it. It also says that it "adopts the target's statistics", as opposed to something like dominate person, where it is worded much differently and you merely control the target's actions.

However, I do think this corner case requires a judgement call from the DM, and it would be reasonable to rule that you polymorph the still alive victim of Body Thief into a new form with an intact brain, and eject the intellect devourer.

The devourer can be forced out, or can choose to leave on its own. Whether you want to call the body alive or dead at that point, it's clearly a different thing than the devourer controlling it. True Polymorph won't combine two different things into one thing.

[Damon_Tor]

Another CR2 creature is Intellect Devourer. If you polymorph your mount to that, could you feed it an incapacitated mid level enemy humanoid, and have it steal it's game statistics, including CR rating? Then True Polymorph it again the next day into an adult dragon, which still serves as your Greater Steed, until killed or dismissed? Are any of the steps in that chain of events against the rules as written and/or intended?

I love this. I love everything about this.


Honestly, if I were the DM of a player that tried your intellect devourer trick, I'd look at them and say "stop being a @#$%".

Combining spells in crazy ways is 75% of the fun of playing a high level wizard. If you have access to True Polymorph your characters are basically doing a victory lap on reality. They can bind themselves way more intimidating mounts than adult dragons using more conventional means, so why are you going all "no fun allowed" on this particular (easily managed via dispel magic) method?

[JoeJ]

Combining spells in crazy ways is 75% of the fun of playing a high level wizard. If you have access to True Polymorph your characters are basically doing a victory lap on reality. They can bind themselves way more intimidating mounts than adult dragons using more conventional means, so why are you going all "no fun allowed" on this particular (easily managed via dispel magic) method?

For the same "no fun" reason I wouldn't let a rogue gain a superpowered mount as an application of Thief's Reflexes.

[krugaan]

I thought polymorph only turned things into beasts?

isn't the ID an aberration? (I'm afb)

[JoeJ]

I thought polymorph only turned things into beasts?

isn't the ID an aberration? (I'm afb)

Polymorph only turns things to beasts, but True Polymorph doesn't have the same restriction.

[krugaan]

oops, I missed the distinction there, my bad.

[Sigreid]

Combining spells in crazy ways is 75% of the fun of playing a high level wizard. If you have access to True Polymorph your characters are basically doing a victory lap on reality. They can bind themselves way more intimidating mounts than adult dragons using more conventional means, so why are you going all "no fun allowed" on this particular (easily managed via dispel magic) method?

To me, there is a difference between doing fun and crazy things and intentionally breaking the game. At the table I play at we have a functional agreement not to screw things over too badly. This means, for example, that unlike some on this board we don't have to spend pages and pages of text or hours of talking to avoid an infinite simularam loop.

To be sure, you can still use spells to do fun things, for example creating a series of simulacra for the purpose of wishing for everyone in the party to have resistance to all damage without running the risk of losing the ability to cast wish ever again. After all, who cares if the simulacra who can never regain spell slots loses the ability?

[Mellack]

I think a good argument can be made that your Find Greater Steed is not a valid target for True Polymorph. The steed is a spirit that takes on a form you choose. It has multiple forms that you can have it take. I think that may make it qualify as a shapechanger, since the spirit can take different forms if recast. True Polymorph specifically says the spell does not work on shapcehangers.

[Errata]

True Polymorph specifically says the spell does not work on shapcehangers.

Shapechangers have a pretty well defined meaning. It refers to things in the monster manual with the shapechanger tag, which the greater steed mounts do not have. Druids have wildshape, but are not considered shapechangers for the sake of Polymorph. Wizards can polymorph themselves despite having the polymorph spell.

Furthermore, greater steed has a concept of the caster bonding to a specific mount of a specific type, and they can't change it to a different creature type without bonding to a different spirit.

[diplomancer]

Just ask your DM to let Find Greater Steed scale with spell level, so that a 9th level slot allows you to summon a CR7 creature (young dragon). That is powerful and fun, but not necessarily overpowered for 17th level.

[Errata]

Just ask your DM to let Find Greater Steed scale with spell level, so that a 9th level slot allows you to summon a CR7 creature (young dragon). That is powerful and fun, but not necessarily overpowered for 17th level.

I'm more interested in how the spells can be interpreted by RAW. True Polymorph being a level 9 spell means it's not out of the question that things can get a little silly without anything being broken. Obviously the DM can hand out perks that are not described by the rules.

I do like the suggestion of scaling mounts as a house rule though. It might be more in keeping with the usual 5e design philosophy if they dropped the "Greater" version and just made Find Steed scaling in a way that captures the current behavior of both spells and extrapolates it. Perhaps make Find Steed scale to a maximum of CR 1 when upcast with a level 3 slot, +1 CR for each spell level over 3, and it must be a medium or larger quadruped Beast with only a walk speed. At spell level 4+, it's extended to include Monstrosities, Celestials, and Fiends, with the movement speed restriction lifted. At 6+ it can include Dragons and the quadruped restriction is lifted for Beasts and Dragons, but not other types.

[druid91]

I mean. By RAW there's nothing saying that just because you polymorphed it into something else, that it's not going to disappear when the time limit is up.

[Errata]

I mean. By RAW there's nothing saying that just because you polymorphed it into something else, that it's not going to disappear when the time limit is up.

What time limit are you referring to? True Polymorph becomes permanent if you concentrate on it for the full spell duration. Find Steed and Find Greater Steed have no time limit. They disappear when they die or are dismissed, not on any fixed schedule, like Find Familiar, but for mounts. Are you perhaps mixing it up with Phantom Steed, which lasts 1 hour? There are plenty of problems with using Phantom Steed for anything like this.

[Rukelnikov]

Assuming you can polymorph the body, once it becomes anything different from a humanoid it stops being a valid target for body theft, and thus it's effect ends.

What you can do, is invest some resources to get a good humanoid as host for your intellect devourer, maybe the next humanoid BBEG, or it's lieutenant.

[Errata]

Assuming you can polymorph the body, once it becomes anything different from a humanoid it stops being a valid target for body theft, and thus it's effect ends.

That seems like a good point. If it was the body around it that was polymorphed, while the steed was still a passenger in its brain, then polymorph to a non-humanoid would make the body theft effect inapplicable.

[Wildarm]

Love this concept. High level wizard shenanigans at it's best. I wouldn't worry about polymorphing a body captured by your Greater Steed ID. Just make sure you get a REALLY good body like a high level humanoid BBEG you managed to land a feeblemind on. Easy pickings for the ID to take over. Heal the feeblemind if needed and you now have a completely loyal BBEG as your "steed".

I'll 1 up that and say you have a ring of spell storing that you can keep putting Find Greater Steed into. Have your new thrall summon another steed. Polymorph it into an ID and repeat the process. Time to start the ID apocalypse.

[diplomancer]

I do like the suggestion of scaling mounts as a house rule though. It might be more in keeping with the usual 5e design philosophy if they dropped the "Greater" version and just made Find Steed scaling in a way that captures the current behavior of both spells and extrapolates it. Perhaps make Find Steed scale to a maximum of CR 1 when upcast with a level 3 slot, +1 CR for each spell level over 3, and it must be a medium or larger quadruped Beast with only a walk speed. At spell level 4+, it's extended to include Monstrosities, Celestials, and Fiends, with the movement speed restriction lifted. At 6+ it can include Dragons and the quadruped restriction is lifted for Beasts and Dragons, but not other types.

Yes, that was what my DM and I had worked out before Xanathar's was published; when it came out we saw we were pretty much spot on powerwise

[Damon_Tor]

Assuming you can polymorph the body, once it becomes anything different from a humanoid it stops being a valid target for body theft, and thus it's effect ends.

What you can do, is invest some resources to get a good humanoid as host for your intellect devourer, maybe the next humanoid BBEG, or it's lieutenant.

There are a number of game rules which contradict the idea that spells and other effects end when their targets become "illegal". In fact the very rules element we're discussing, the Intellect Devourer's Body Theft ability, has two requirements: humanoid and incapacitated. By your houserule this ability would never function as intended because as soon as the creature stopped being incapacitated the effect would end.

The ability lists a number of situations where the Body Theft ends: dropping to 0 hitpoints, protection from good and evil, wish, and the Devourer can choose to end it willingly. The target changing to a different creature type is not listed.

[darknite]

I usually just True Polymorph my wizard's Simulacrum. It's a genius spellcaster who thinks just like my PC does who's now a super powerful monster (CR = wizard level), can take a beating and then, if the polymorphed creature runs out of hp, reverts to being a powerful wizard.

[Damon_Tor]

I usually just True Polymorph my wizard's Simulacrum. It's a genius spellcaster who thinks just like my PC does who's now a super powerful monster (CR = wizard level), can take a beating and then, if the polymorphed creature runs out of hp, reverts to being a powerful wizard.

Highly questionable. Simulacrum has a clause that ambiguously states that it "cannot become more powerful". A creature with the same CR as as PC's level is by definition more powerful than that PC (A PC's level is about 4X the CR of a creature it can be expected to solo.) It also "reverts to snow and melts instantly" if it drops to 0 hitpoints, so the idea that when it runs out of hp it reverts to being a powerful wizard probably isn't correct either.

In other words, the simulacrum is probably limited to CR 5 and doesn't likely survive losing it's polymorphed hitpoints. You couldn't even change it back with dispel magic because the dispel would probably end the spell animating it in the first place along with the polymorph.

[Rukelnikov]

There are a number of game rules which contradict the idea that spells and other effects end when their targets become "illegal". In fact the very rules element we're discussing, the Intellect Devourer's Body Theft ability, has two requirements: humanoid and incapacitated. By your houserule this ability would never function as intended because as soon as the creature stopped being incapacitated the effect would end.

The ability lists a number of situations where the Body Theft ends: dropping to 0 hitpoints, protection from good and evil, wish, and the Devourer can choose to end it willingly. The target changing to a different creature type is not listed.

The host never stops being incapacitated, if it did, it would be capable of taking actions, which it isn't.

[darknite]

Highly questionable...

Not really. The Simulacrum is not becoming 'more powerful' as it does not gain levels or other abilities of the creature it was sculpted after - ie it does not level up and use ASIs to increase an attribute, etc. It follows the rules of not being able to progress further as it's progenitor was when the Simulacrum was created. However if the progenitor could be TP'd, and why couldn't they be, there should be no barrier to TPin a Simulacrum as well.

The Simulacrum is a construct that has all the statistics, other than HP, of the creature it duplicates, which includes level. True Polymorph spell states that the CR of the creature being polymorphed into equals the CR of the base creature, or if it doesn't have a CR, it's level. There is no discussion of power rankings in this equation.

As always it depends on the DM and how they and the player agree on interpreting the spell.

[Errata]

I usually just True Polymorph my wizard's Simulacrum. It's a genius spellcaster who thinks just like my PC does who's now a super powerful monster (CR = wizard level), can take a beating and then, if the polymorphed creature runs out of hp, reverts to being a powerful wizard.

The thing about Find Greater Steed is that it shares spells that affect only you, so you get 2 castings for the price of one. So if you ever were to cast True Polymorph on yourself, and you have a greater steed, there's no reason you wouldn't cast it on them. Simulacrums are orthogonal to that and could have steeds and polymorphs of their own to cast rather than using your slot. The origin of this question is that if I were to cast True Polymorph on myself, is there anything useful to do with the CR2 target who also gets it as a side benefit? Most likely I'll just polymorph it into some lesser version of the same thing, like a wyrmling if I polymorph into a dragon. But it's not useful as a mount in that form so I would want them to revert back when I do.

True Polymorph is one of the most interesting and versatile level 9 spells on the Bard list, so it would be a go-to at level 17 Bard, until level 18 Bard where they can get Wish (if I ever do). If that's my biggest tool, I want to think through some of my options with it. I'm currently Bard 9/Sorcerer 1, with my first Magical Secrets pick imminent. I have Find Greater Steed locked in as one of the picks. It's a more permanent decision than most spell selections, since you can't change it for another out of class spell when leveling up. To make sure I don't regret my picks, I'm trying to plan out spell choices further than usual. To do that I also need to decide whether I want to get to Sorcerer 3 to dabble in Metamagic, in which case I would have level 9 Bard spells, but not level 9 cross class spells (like Wish).

[Damon_Tor]

As always it depends on the DM and how they and the player agree on interpreting the spell.

Which is why I called it "questionable" and not "wrong".

[Nikomnion]

I really like the Intellect Devourer idea. Minding Goolock's Create Thrall, which works almost the same and is 14th level ability, I'd say it's perfectly fine for stealing humanoid's ID. As a DM, I'd rule it by description of Body Theft and wouldn't allow further polymorphing because Intellect Devourer is a creature on its own (also shielded from most effects, including Dispel Magic, IMHO) replacing the host's brain which has inherited it's mental traits, so those must stay, while True Polymorph explicitly states otherwise. In case of Create Thrall however...

Sorry for necroposting!

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I think the steed will lose his intelligence and telepathic link.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Highly questionable. Simulacrum has a clause that ambiguously states that it "cannot become more powerful". A creature with the same CR as as PC's level is by definition more powerful than that PC (A PC's level is about 4X the CR of a creature it can be expected to solo.) It also "reverts to snow and melts instantly" if it drops to 0 hitpoints, so the idea that when it runs out of hp it reverts to being a powerful wizard probably isn't correct either.

In other words, the simulacrum is probably limited to CR 5 and doesn't likely survive losing it's polymorphed hitpoints. You couldn't even change it back with dispel magic because the dispel would probably end the spell animating it in the first place along with the polymorph.

There are no grounds for this interpretation beyond pure DM fiat. CR 5 is pulled out of “a dark hole”, the simulacrum has your statistics including level and therefore the same capacity to be polymorphed you do. It’s clear the intention of the ambiguous phrase is “does not gain levels or learn new spells.”

Once polymorphed it is explicitly not a simulacrum, the same way a chair you turn into a dog isn’t a chair so that form being reduced to 0 ends the TP spell effect at which point it reverts to a simulacrum with whatever its current HP should be and suffers rollover damage as normal. The exception would be disintegrate/finger of death etc which have explicit effects when they reduce a creature to 0.

I respect your right to hit whatever you like with a nerf bat, IME it’s usually a reaction to having players with styles that don’t mesh quite right or a DMing style that doesn’t favor improvisation. But you should always just say “not at my table, where does it end?” and move on instead of trying to justify it. Bothering with the justification creates the illusion there’s a negotiation to be done which is clearly not what you want. Just say you’d ban it and be done. I support you.

[jdizzlean]

The Mod Life Crisis: My spell resistance is so high, your attempt at resurrection auto-fails.