Starting Warhammer 40K questions

[Tyrant]

Apologies if the WH40K thread is a better place for this. A friend and I are debating taking up Warhammer 40K. I have a few questions for anyone who can help about the products* We're going to get the First Strike box set. It seems like a decent price for the contents. Anyway, my questions mostly center around that set and what it does/doesn't have and where to go from there.

1) How stripped down are the rules in this set? How well do they approximate the larger game?
2) As far as the figures in the set, are they essentially the figures spread across the Easy To Build (ETB) Poxwalkers, Death Guard Plague Marines, Primaris Reivers, and Primaris Intercessors sets?
3) How easy is to add units to this set as far as with the rules provided? For instance, could the Primaris Redemptor Dreadnought or the Myphitic Blight Hauler be easily added?
4) In terms or included rules, what are the differences between this set and the Know No Fear box set?
5) Is there a reason to buy the Know No Fear box set after this (assuming we decide to keep going) instead of skipping to the Dark Imperium set?

Other random questions

6) Are most of the larger box sets (like Dark Imperium or Tooth and Claw) games unto themselves or are they more or less big army boxes?
7) Are there ways to combine similar factions? As in, can multiple Chaos factions ally? Imperial Guard and Space Marines? Etc?
8) Is Kill Team any good?
9) Kill Team appears to me to be a small squad type game. Is this an accurate assessment?
10) Does Kill Team use different rules or are they simply stripped down from the larger game?

Thanks for any help.

*I've played Dawn of War and I've seen the models in stores and magazines since I saw a booklet in HeroQuest a very long time ago so I have reasonable knowledge of the lore of the setting. I mainly need advice on the product side.

[druid91]

Apologies if the WH40K thread is a better place for this. A friend and I are debating taking up Warhammer 40K. I have a few questions for anyone who can help about the products* We're going to get the First Strike box set. It seems like a decent price for the contents. Anyway, my questions mostly center around that set and what it does/doesn't have and where to go from there.

1) How stripped down are the rules in this set? How well do they approximate the larger game?
2) As far as the figures in the set, are they essentially the figures spread across the Easy To Build (ETB) Poxwalkers, Death Guard Plague Marines, Primaris Reivers, and Primaris Intercessors sets?
3) How easy is to add units to this set as far as with the rules provided? For instance, could the Primaris Redemptor Dreadnought or the Myphitic Blight Hauler be easily added?
4) In terms or included rules, what are the differences between this set and the Know No Fear box set?
5) Is there a reason to buy the Know No Fear box set after this (assuming we decide to keep going) instead of skipping to the Dark Imperium set?

Other random questions

6) Are most of the larger box sets (like Dark Imperium or Tooth and Claw) games unto themselves or are they more or less big army boxes?
7) Are there ways to combine similar factions? As in, can multiple Chaos factions ally? Imperial Guard and Space Marines? Etc?
8) Is Kill Team any good?
9) Kill Team appears to me to be a small squad type game. Is this an accurate assessment?
10) Does Kill Team use different rules or are they simply stripped down from the larger game?

Thanks for any help.

*I've played Dawn of War and I've seen the models in stores and magazines since I saw a booklet in HeroQuest a very long time ago so I have reasonable knowledge of the lore of the setting. I mainly need advice on the product side.

As to the First Strike box set, I have no idea. As to your random questions.

6.) Dark Imperium comes with the big book of rules, two armies, and pamphlets containing the datasheets for those armies, along with some dice and a cheap plastic ruler. It's basically everything you need to get started..... for those two armies.
7.) Yes. You choose a broad ranging army keyword. For example, if you pick 'Chaos' as your Army keyword, you can include detachments from any chaos faction. Same for 'Imperium'.
8.) I personally enjoy it. I know some people on these boards don't.
9.) Yes. That is accurate. It's about small specialized spec-ops squads rather than massive battles.
10.) Kill team actually uses a more detailed version of the larger games rules because with limited unit numbers, you can afford to get a little more granular. Including things like characters gaining experience and levels as you go through a campaign.

[LansXero]

1) How stripped down are the rules in this set? How well do they approximate the larger game?

Tremendously, but in 8th thats not too much of a hindrance. Download and print the core mechanics from GW's site:
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Battle-Primer-2017-ENG


2) As far as the figures in the set, are they essentially the figures spread across the Easy To Build (ETB) Poxwalkers, Death Guard Plague Marines, Primaris Reivers, and Primaris Intercessors sets?

Sort of, thats what they are but I think some models may be unique.


3) How easy is to add units to this set as far as with the rules provided? For instance, could the Primaris Redemptor Dreadnought or the Myphitic Blight Hauler be easily added?

Boxes dont come with stats, so nothing can be 'easily' added. Also, First Strike is way too barebones; it is however a decent entry point for Kill Team.

Know no Fear is imho a better choice for people actually looking to start.


4) In terms or included rules, what are the differences between this set and the Know No Fear box set?

KNF doesnt have the fancy datasheet cards, but has more scenarios and basic rules to use. Also, it has a better diversity of battlefield roles.


5) Is there a reason to buy the Know No Fear box set after this (assuming we decide to keep going) instead of skipping to the Dark Imperium set?


Reivers arent very good, like, at all, but the Hellblasters from KNF are pretty great. You cant ever have too many poxwalkers, but Plague Marines are situational.

I'd recommend starting with Know no Fear instead of First Strike, unless FS is discounted or KNF is above what you can afford.


Other random questions

6) Are most of the larger box sets (like Dark Imperium or Tooth and Claw) games unto themselves or are they more or less big army boxes?

'big' army boxes; however, I feel 2x Start Collecting may be a better option (depending on faction, of course)


7) Are there ways to combine similar factions? As in, can multiple Chaos factions ally? Imperial Guard and Space Marines? Etc?

Yes and its the source of many casual tears.


8) Is Kill Team any good?

At the casual level its a blast. Kill or severely nerf the scouting phase, ignore the fall rules, make cool scenarios and have fun. If you try too hard to get good at it, it breaks easily.


9) Kill Team appears to me to be a small squad type game. Is this an accurate assessment?

Its a skirmish game; 'squad' would imply something like infinity, but it plays closer to low-points Warmahordes.


10) Does Kill Team use different rules or are they simply stripped down from the larger game?
entirely different ruleset. But it has enough similarity that you can jump from there to regular 40k and have a grasp on the basics

Also: BattleScribe and 1d4chan are your friends.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Apologies if the WH40K thread is a better place for this. A friend and I are debating taking up Warhammer 40K. I have a few questions for anyone who can help about the products* We're going to get the First Strike box set. It seems like a decent price for the contents. Anyway, my questions mostly center around that set and what it does/doesn't have and where to go from there.

1) How stripped down are the rules in this set? How well do they approximate the larger game?
2) As far as the figures in the set, are they essentially the figures spread across the Easy To Build (ETB) Poxwalkers, Death Guard Plague Marines, Primaris Reivers, and Primaris Intercessors sets?
3) How easy is to add units to this set as far as with the rules provided? For instance, could the Primaris Redemptor Dreadnought or the Myphitic Blight Hauler be easily added?
4) In terms or included rules, what are the differences between this set and the Know No Fear box set?
5) Is there a reason to buy the Know No Fear box set after this (assuming we decide to keep going) instead of skipping to the Dark Imperium set?

Other random questions

6) Are most of the larger box sets (like Dark Imperium or Tooth and Claw) games unto themselves or are they more or less big army boxes?
7) Are there ways to combine similar factions? As in, can multiple Chaos factions ally? Imperial Guard and Space Marines? Etc?
8) Is Kill Team any good?
9) Kill Team appears to me to be a small squad type game. Is this an accurate assessment?
10) Does Kill Team use different rules or are they simply stripped down from the larger game?

Thanks for any help.

*I've played Dawn of War and I've seen the models in stores and magazines since I saw a booklet in HeroQuest a very long time ago so I have reasonable knowledge of the lore of the setting. I mainly need advice on the product side.

Let's see what I can answer...

1) The rules will be incomplete, but they're not simplified. They simply don't add rules that aren't applicable to the scenario in the game. You're gonna want to get the basic rulebook and the army Codices anyways.

2) Yes, to my knowledge those are the Easy To Build sets.

3) Depends on whether the models you buy also include the rules for that model. The starter boxes all include the rules for their models, but if you wanted to add a normal model box, it doesn't and you'll need to get the Codex book for the army.

4) The website has detailed descriptions of the contents of each box. Here's the Canadian website version of First Strike (https://www.games-workshop.com/en-CA/40k-first-strike-2017-ENG) and Know No Fear (https://www.games-workshop.com/en-CA/40k-know-no-fear-2017-ENG). Their box descriptions are really thorough, break models down by faction too. First Strike is actually pretty bad for starting armies because the Space Marines come in 3s, but a minimum legal squad is 5 for those two groups. Same for the Death Guard, need 5 Plague Marines and 10 Poxwalkers for a legal unit. Know No Fear at least has legal squad sizes. For this reason I'd honestly say go for Know No Fear instead of First Strike.

Other than just having larger legal squads, Know No Fear has an extra Bloat-drone and a Lord of Contagion character for the Death Guard, and a Captain, Inceptor jump-pack squad, and Hellblaster plasma-squad for Marines, but no Reivers. Both boxes have Intercessors, Plauge Marines and Poxwalkers. Also I don't think Know No Fear is push-to-fit easy-to-build.

5) So giving my above comment, I'm gonna go through a few different scenarios for how to start using these boxes. First of all, like I say First Strike is kinda useless. Only real benefit of First Strike is that when combined with just Dark Imperium, it turns the 7 Death Guard in DI into a big blob of 10. Otherwise, weird uneven units... It's legal to have something weird like 8 Intercessors of 26 Poxwalkers, it's just weird math.

Know No Fear + Dark Imperium is the best bang for your buck, because it fills out the big weakness of Dark Imperium: lacking in the 3 Troops choices needed to make a full Battalion for the Space Marines. Know No Fear gives you that third 5-man unit of Intercessors you need to fill that out. It also would allow the Death Guard to run 2 units of Plague Marines and one GIANT IMPOSSIBLE TO KILL BLOB of Poxwalkers.

In terms of building a COMPETITIVE army, the Space Marine units are... kinda suck. The Death Guard Poxwalkers and some of the Characters I think are good though. Especially the Poxwalkers, they're actually brilliant. But if you're not aiming to win tournaments, it doesn't REALLY matter.

6) The other boxes are all kinda like Dark Imperium, only I think with a little less fluff. I don't think they include the Basic Rules, but those are a free download on the website anyways. They do have the rules for the units in them though.

[PraetorDragoon]

One thing you need to figure out is what style you like. More competitive? more narrative? Going to play at the local game store or just with friends? This changes how you view 40k (and wargames in general)

[Tyrant]

Thanks for the input from druid91 and Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll. I'll talk it over with my friend. I will say that part of my reasoning is that I would rather spend ~$34 (the price I keep seeing for First Strike online) and find out that I like the game than spend ~$68 (the price I keep seeing for Know No Fear online) and find out that I don't like it. I know that if we decide to continue after whichever one we buy there will be greater costs so the initial cost isn't a huge deal beyond possibly feeling like I wasted money if I don't like the game. I do appreciate the advice and the reasoning behind it however.

I do have an additional question/questions about the Codices.
1) I need them for any army I intend to run, correct?
2) I assume the Codices that are sold outside of the Dark Imperium box for the two included factions are more in depth and provide information for the units that they can use that aren't in the box?
3) Assuming I were going to play Chaos and planned on using Death Guard and Thousand Suns (for instance), I assume I would need the codices for both?
4) Would I also need the Chaos Space Marine Codex in the example for #3?


One thing you need to figure out is what style you like. More competitive? more narrative? Going to play at the local game store or just with friends? This changes how you view 40k (and wargames in general)
For the near future it will just be me and a friend, maybe a second friend if we like it and can talk him into it (likely letting him use one of our armies). Tournaments are a maybe after we are comfortable with the rules and check out the local scene. I play HeroClix in tournaments but I don't go all out on meta teams. I try to stick with something thematic that will at least be competitive because I value having fun. I would be playing WH40K at the same store (though with different people and I have no idea what their general temperament is) if I were going to start playing outside of just me and a friend or two.

Random tidbit in case it matters: I'm inclined to play Chaos (I like the look and some of the lore for the Thousand Sons, but Death Guard will work for now) and maybe the Genestealers (not sure about the larger Tyranid faction yet). Not at the same time but overall. My friend who is going in on this with me is set on the Imperium (I think he favors the Space Wolves). So the Tooth and Claw boxed set is a likely future purchase and likely the Deathwatch Overkill set if I can find one. Not sure if that matters for anyone's responses but thought I should throw it out there for clarity.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Thanks for the input from druid91 and Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll. I'll talk it over with my friend. I will say that part of my reasoning is that I would rather spend ~$34 (the price I keep seeing for First Strike online) and find out that I like the game than spend ~$68 (the price I keep seeing for Know No Fear online) and find out that I don't like it. I know that if we decide to continue after whichever one we buy there will be greater costs so the initial cost isn't a huge deal beyond possibly feeling like I wasted money if I don't like the game. I do appreciate the advice and the reasoning behind it however.

I do have an additional question/questions about the Codices.
1) I need them for any army I intend to run, correct?
2) I assume the Codices that are sold outside of the Dark Imperium box for the two included factions are more in depth and provide information for the units that they can use that aren't in the box?
3) Assuming I were going to play Chaos and planned on using Death Guard and Thousand Suns (for instance), I assume I would need the codices for both?
4) Would I also need the Chaos Space Marine Codex in the example for #3?


For the near future it will just be me and a friend, maybe a second friend if we like it and can talk him into it (likely letting him use one of our armies). Tournaments are a maybe after we are comfortable with the rules and check out the local scene. I play HeroClix in tournaments but I don't go all out on meta teams. I try to stick with something thematic that will at least be competitive because I value having fun. I would be playing WH40K at the same store (though with different people and I have no idea what their general temperament is) if I were going to start playing outside of just me and a friend or two.

Random tidbit in case it matters: I'm inclined to play Chaos (I like the look and some of the lore for the Thousand Sons, but Death Guard will work for now) and maybe the Genestealers (not sure about the larger Tyranid faction yet). Not at the same time but overall. My friend who is going in on this with me is set on the Imperium (I think he favors the Space Wolves). So the Tooth and Claw boxed set is a likely future purchase and likely the Deathwatch Overkill set if I can find one. Not sure if that matters for anyone's responses but thought I should throw it out there for clarity.

1) Yup! The Codex has the rules for any of your units. You'll also want to check Errata, FAQs, and the Chapter Approved books (which have updated points value).
I will say that the free unofficial Battlescribe app also has unit stat-blocks and a list-building tool for you, and it usually is pretty up to date. HOWEVER, if there's a rules question, people want you to turn to one of the official sources.
2) Yeah, Codices are complete except for models released after the Codex (which are few). The Vigilus box has two mini-codices for the units in that box, because they're all new. Other stuff like the Primaris Marneus Calgar will have rules only in the model's box.
3) Yeah, those are two separate codices, you'll need both to play.
4) The basic Chaos Codex is a separate army, same as Chaos Daemons if you wanted to run them. So if you wanted to run a mix of basic Chaos Marines and Death Guard, you'd want the Chaos Codex. If you're only going to be running strictly Death Guard and Thousand Sons, you won't need it.

In terms of competitive DG/TS: Competitive armies of those factions really don't run actual marines. They tend to run Daemon Princes, Daemon allies (Plaguebearers mostly), and lots of the cheap footsoldiers (Tzaangors and Poxwalkers), with a few HQ (especially Ahriman or the Daemon Primarchs). If you like armies of giant demons with hordes of allies and mutants, this is super powerful, but if you wanted an army of elite Marines, you're gonna be mid-to-lower tier.

Again, that's not hte worst thing in the world; my current army (Necrons) is about in the same place if not worse and it's still fun so.

[YossarianLives]

Thanks for the input from druid91 and Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll. I'll talk it over with my friend. I will say that part of my reasoning is that I would rather spend ~$34 (the price I keep seeing for First Strike online) and find out that I like the game than spend ~$68 (the price I keep seeing for Know No Fear online) and find out that I don't like it. I know that if we decide to continue after whichever one we buy there will be greater costs so the initial cost isn't a huge deal beyond possibly feeling like I wasted money if I don't like the game. I do appreciate the advice and the reasoning behind it however.
That's a valid concern. Do you have a GW store near you? If you come in and ask they'll be happy to run you through a tutorial game with the in-store miniatures, that might be worthwhile if you're looking to get an idea of how much you actually enjoy the game.

[Forum Explorer]

My advice is to actually look through the various factions and you and your friend pick the ones you like the best. If that's Space Marines and Death Guard, then yeah, the starters you mentioned more or less work. Lans has good advice there.

But if after reading through everything you decide you like Necrons and Orks? You'll want to buy something else.

So what appeals to you the most fluff wise?

[Tyrant]

My advice is to actually look through the various factions and you and your friend pick the ones you like the best. If that's Space Marines and Death Guard, then yeah, the starters you mentioned more or less work. Lans has good advice there.

But if after reading through everything you decide you like Necrons and Orks? You'll want to buy something else.

So what appeals to you the most fluff wise?
Sorry I should have clarified my comments about the factions. Those are the ones we are interested in, not just the ones in the boxes we are kind of interested in. I won't sink money into units that I don't see myself using (unless they look really cool and I can convince myself that I have the painting skill to bring them to life, then I might). So I wouldn't buy the Wake the Dead set, for instance, because I probably won't be playing the Eldar. Death Guard isn't my first choice from among Chaos, but Chaos is my overall first choice (with Genestealers a close second) so they will probably end up finding a place. I'm not deciding based on the box set options. It's just a happy coincidence that a number of them have units my friend and I might want.

Edit to add: I do appreciate the suggestion though.

[PraetorDragoon]

If money is a particular thing it might be more interesting to look at Kill Team. Its a bit smaller, needs less models and books and is cheaper as result.

The other option is to opt for some demo games in the nearby gaming store.


For the near future it will just be me and a friend, maybe a second friend if we like it and can talk him into it (likely letting him use one of our armies). Tournaments are a maybe after we are comfortable with the rules and check out the local scene. I play HeroClix in tournaments but I don't go all out on meta teams. I try to stick with something thematic that will at least be competitive because I value having fun. I would be playing WH40K at the same store (though with different people and I have no idea what their general temperament is) if I were going to start playing outside of just me and a friend or two.

Random tidbit in case it matters: I'm inclined to play Chaos (I like the look and some of the lore for the Thousand Sons, but Death Guard will work for now) and maybe the Genestealers (not sure about the larger Tyranid faction yet). Not at the same time but overall. My friend who is going in on this with me is set on the Imperium (I think he favors the Space Wolves). So the Tooth and Claw boxed set is a likely future purchase and likely the Deathwatch Overkill set if I can find one. Not sure if that matters for anyone's responses but thought I should throw it out there for clarity.

Gotcha, the reason I asked is because there is a gulf of difference between heavy meta tournament 40k and 40k between friends. Still, a hint I want to give you is that its better to talk things out first. Casual has a different meaning between different people, with some finding a all-knight list casual while others don't. Making sure you are on the same level there is very helpful for casual games.

[druid91]

This has a download of the battle primer. (https://www.warhammer-community.com/downloads/)

Chaos is a pretty broad army, and if you like it, maybe pick up the Chaos 2 codex, download the battle primer, and then You could take that, some pennies, and some pieces of paper as standin minis, maybe a couple of small cardboard boxes for tanks and play a few games to see how you like it.

[Cheesegear]

So, I was kind of waiting for this to come over into the main thread. Since it didn't, here we go:

If I repeat something someone else has already said, just consider it reinforcing the point. Everything I write here, I would also tell you IRL (unless you have your heart dead-set on Necrons or Grey Knights, then I have to pull my punches):

Outside of very specific Start Collecting! boxes (i.e; two-thirds of them are garbage), Know No Fear is the best way to start your army if you want to play Space Marines or Death Guard. Especially if you have two players looking to get into the hobby at the same time. If one of both of you don't like the contents, welp, you're going to have to spend a bit of money.
First Strike is garbage. I know it's the cheapest box. But it's still ****. Unless you're looking to get into Kill Team. Straight up, Kill Team is not 40K. If you're okay with that, play Kill Team if you want. However the instant you start trying to win at KT, the game falls apart.
Cost. Think about how the units you buy now, will work when you play larger armies. A classic example of this in Plague Marines. You buy them. They work well. However, Plague Marines begin to fall apart the instant you can afford to field Blightlord Terminators. Very few Codecies have internal redundancy as bad as that. But it does exist. Plan out what you want to buy eventually now, and then try and buy it in legal chunks. Otherwise you're going to end up with a lot of wasted money. However, you also have to think about how long you might stay at your points level for...Whatever. Point is, this hobby gets expensive, real fast. The less money you waste on units that don't perform, the happier you'll be.
Allies. The way 40K is now...You best start figuring out how to like other Factions other than your first. While you don't need a second Codex to begin with. You will. If you're ever going to take the game seriously. A lot of people say it's not cool to talk about secondary - and tertiary! - Codecies to new kids. But, that's the reality of the game.
A rulebook is basically irrelevant until you want to play 'real' Missions. Even then, you can look up a whole bunch of stuff online if you know where to look. A lot of the rules are so simple I could just tell you now; Ruins. The only Keywords that matter are <Infantry> and <Fly>. If your unit is neither Infantry or has Fly, it doesn't interact with a Ruin. Easy. The Open War cards give you a ton of randomly generated Missions. Some of them aren't necessarily fair. But they'll get you through a ton of games and you don't have the buy the rulebook. I strongly recommend Open War cards to all new players - especially if they don't buy a rulebook because they bought Know No Fear instead of Dark Imperium.
I strongly recommend buying your Codex. However, if you can't do that because you're on a budget. Then 'Battlescribe & Datacards' will solve 90% of your problems. Hey, if you buy Datacards you can also play Maelstrom from the word go. However, in small games the deck needs to be modified a bit...We'll talk about it in the main thread if you give a ****. Point is, Codex. If you can't buy a Codex, Battlescribe & Cards will do. Some people (e.g; Me) will get angry at you when you try and show them a rule on your phone...But a tablet is good.
(And I'm not ever going to play against you so who cares what I think about the phone thing anyway?)
Staleness. You wont realise this at first. But playing with the same person (e.g; your friend or sibling) over and over and over again gets old. Real fast. Once you figure out which units are good against which units, it's really easy to fall into a rut and the game gets boring. If you can play games at a store, FLGS or club, do so. Not only will you be able to interact with other people IRL, because you'll also be able to interact with other armies, which will force you to change your play-style or perhaps re-think how you play the game. I even brought this up recently in the main thread. 'Not enough players' can kill the hobby for some people, because what kills it, is that nothing ever changes when you play the same person over and over and over again. Unless of course, you and your opponent have the resources to switch things up somehow and/or buy new models.
Also, incidentally, by playing 'small games' around other people, you are in fact, promoting the idea that small games can be played in the store. This probably wont mean anything to some of the regulars. But, if you can convince someone else who's new to the hobby, that the store isn't just 'all scary 2K Point games, all the time', they might pick up the hobby as well. It doesn't always work. But if you recruit one new player to the store - even 'on your level' - then everyone wins.
Avoid Necrons and Grey Knights. Sad, but again, that doesn't mean it's not true.

What to do now?
1. Know No Fear, if you and/or your friend want something else that isn't Death Guard or (Primaris only) Space Marines, you're going to want specific Start Collecting! boxes - ask in main thread, it's a whole thing.
2. Codex (+/- Datacards). Or, Battlescribe & Datacards (at least for the short term). Chapter Approved is a pain in the arse for new players. So even if you do buy the Codex...Get Battlescribe anyway. :smallsigh:
3. Download Core Rules from GW's website, and buy Open War cards.
4. A ****load of six-sided dice (D6s). If you live in somewhere other than the U.S.A. (or Libya and Miyanmar), you're going to need a ruler or tape measure that has inches on it.
5. Watch some scratch-building terrain tutorials on YouTube. They're pretty fun.
That's everything you need to play 40K at a basic level. However, to play 'real' 40K, you probably want to look at trying to build 750 Points. Any less than that and certain Factions need to start making concessions and maybe some army-building restrictions come into play. Even Kill Team has started bringing in HQs and Elites because it's a broken mess that has severe balance issues and the only way to fix it is to...Break it harder?

Where to go?
1. Think now (I'm serious, now) about what you want your final 'big' army to look like. It does matter, and will save you money in the long run. 1d4chan Guides are great at telling you what units can do. It's much less helpful in telling you what you should do. Not every unit is useful in every points bracket. Not every unit is useful, full stop.
2. Allies matter. Don't exclude them from your thought processes. Unless you're playing T'au or Orks, if you aren't thinking about Allies when building your army, you'll be in for a bad time (and we already established that you're going to stay away from Necrons, right).
3. Please, please, please play with other people. It literally helps everyone.

[Forum Explorer]

Cheesegear's allies advice is mostly meta dependent. But I don't know what the meta is like in Indiana, so I can't help you there.

But generally speaking? Death Guard can get away with not having allies, but you mentioned you liked other CSMs better, so they can be your allies for whatever you eventually get.

Space Marines need allies much more so than Chaos does. Either the Loyal 32 (30 Guardsmen and 2 Company Commanders) for the 5 CP it gives you, or a Knight, or an assassin or two. It's pretty easy to slot them in at least.

[Renegade Paladin]

Whereabouts in Indiana? I TO for a shop in the southwest part of the state; if you're in the region I'll be glad to set you up. :) If not, I can point you toward good contacts in the Bloomington, Indianapolis, and Louisville metas.

[Tyrant]

RE: PraetorDragoon
If money is a particular thing it might be more interesting to look at Kill Team. Its a bit smaller, needs less models and books and is cheaper as result.
I won't lie and say money isn't a factor, I'm not rich. However, it isn't a huge factor. It's more a matter of feeling like I wasted money, if that makes sense. I do intend to look into Kill Team as well. If I have two possible uses (well, I guess there are three if I display them) for the models then the odds of me feeling like I am wasting money will go down.

The other option is to opt for some demo games in the nearby gaming store.
We are looking into that. A nearby store does demos so it's mainly matter of lining up our schedules.

Gotcha, the reason I asked is because there is a gulf of difference between heavy meta tournament 40k and 40k between friends. Still, a hint I want to give you is that its better to talk things out first. Casual has a different meaning between different people, with some finding a all-knight list casual while others don't. Making sure you are on the same level there is very helpful for casual games.
Yeah I have experiences with this with HeroClix. When I play at home with a couple of friends (the same ones who are going to be trying WH40K) we don't build hyper competitive teams. The store where I play usually uses scenarios to discourage the meta teams that strip the fun out of the game. I don't play in the regional tournaments because A) I don't feel like spending a lot of money on pieces that are useful in those tournaments and B) I play the game to have fun with comic book figures, not stress out over winning regional tournaments. I play games to have fun, not find the most absurdly broken path to victory that offers no fun for myself or my opponent.


RE: Cheesegear


Outside of very specific Start Collecting! boxes (i.e; two-thirds of them are garbage), Know No Fear is the best way to start your army if you want to play Space Marines or Death Guard. Especially if you have two players looking to get into the hobby at the same time. If one of both of you don't like the contents, welp, you're going to have to spend a bit of money.
First Strike is garbage. I know it's the cheapest box. But it's still ****. Unless you're looking to get into Kill Team. Straight up, Kill Team is not 40K. If you're okay with that, play Kill Team if you want. However the instant you start trying to win at KT, the game falls apart.
Cost. Think about how the units you buy now, will work when you play larger armies. A classic example of this in Plague Marines. You buy them. They work well. However, Plague Marines begin to fall apart the instant you can afford to field Blightlord Terminators. Very few Codecies have internal redundancy as bad as that. But it does exist. Plan out what you want to buy eventually now, and then try and buy it in legal chunks. Otherwise you're going to end up with a lot of wasted money. However, you also have to think about how long you might stay at your points level for...Whatever. Point is, this hobby gets expensive, real fast. The less money you waste on units that don't perform, the happier you'll be.
Allies. The way 40K is now...You best start figuring out how to like other Factions other than your first. While you don't need a second Codex to begin with. You will. If you're ever going to take the game seriously. A lot of people say it's not cool to talk about secondary - and tertiary! - Codecies to new kids. But, that's the reality of the game.
Staleness. You wont realise this at first. But playing with the same person (e.g; your friend or sibling) over and over and over again gets old. Real fast. Once you figure out which units are good against which units, it's really easy to fall into a rut and the game gets boring. If you can play games at a store, FLGS or club, do so. Not only will you be able to interact with other people IRL, because you'll also be able to interact with other armies, which will force you to change your play-style or perhaps re-think how you play the game. I even brought this up recently in the main thread. 'Not enough players' can kill the hobby for some people, because what kills it, is that nothing ever changes when you play the same person over and over and over again. Unless of course, you and your opponent have the resources to switch things up somehow and/or buy new models.
Avoid Necrons and Grey Knights. Sad, but again, that doesn't mean it's not true.
I appreciate the feedback. I do have a few questions/comments on these:
I will have to look into those. The present situation is that my friend has wanted to play the Space Marines since he started trying to talk me into playing so he is fine with more or less anything related to them and most things Imperium related. I'm interested in Chaos and I don't have a problem with the Death Guard (I didn't know much about them before I started looking into these boxes, I mainly knew about the Chaos faction in general). So we do have a situation where we do want the two factions present in those sets.
Could you elaborate on this point? Both the "unless you're looking into Kill Team" part and the "Kill Team can implode" part
Once I am past the starter sets I will try to read up on this point. To be clear though, can I, as a relative novice at that point, likely figure out from the faction Codex what is and isn't garbage?
As far as allies we are talking about (using the Death Guard as an example) other parts of the Chaos faction right? Like the Black Legion or Daemons? It was honestly a concern that I couldn't combine them before I started asking around so having a mixed army is no problem to me (aside from practical issues like figuring out what works best and painting everything the right color scheme).
My friend and I are hoping to rope in a third person for home games and depending on the scale we settle on (I've gathered that there are different point levels) we should each have some other options and options for our third friend. Eventually. This is also why we are going to also look at Kill Team to mix it up.
Purely out of curiosity, what makes those two so bad?

I appreciate the other tips as well.

Cheesegear's allies advice is mostly meta dependent. But I don't know what the meta is like in Indiana, so I can't help you there.

But generally speaking? Death Guard can get away with not having allies, but you mentioned you liked other CSMs better, so they can be your allies for whatever you eventually get.

Space Marines need allies much more so than Chaos does. Either the Loyal 32 (30 Guardsmen and 2 Company Commanders) for the 5 CP it gives you, or a Knight, or an assassin or two. It's pretty easy to slot them in at least.
Once my friend and I have played around with what we get from the box sets and decide if we are going to continue, we will definitely look into what we should and shouldn't get instead of buying whatever we come across. I've already mentioned to him that we will probably need to diversify our armies beyond the main faction.

Renegade Paladin, I will PM you.

Thanks again for the advice everyone. I do have another question for anyone that wants to answer. Is there any redeeming quality to the First Strike box?

[LansXero]

Thanks again for the advice everyone. I do have another question for anyone that wants to answer. Is there any redeeming quality to the First Strike box?

Irs a good start for Kill Team, more so if your meta isnt too strict on WYSIWYG. Deathwatch is a pretty solid faction for the Marines included, and even the Reavers can do work as-is (but would be better as proxies of other stuff). The Death Guard side is pretty useful too, since Plague Marine gunners + poxwalkers is how the faction works there. However' youd be short of 100 pts with just that, so an extra ETB poxwalker kit would round it up.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

At this point I worry that this thread is pushing the normal thread down, perhaps now we've moved on to broader questions (why certain factions don't work, including mine, how to figure out what models work when).

[Cheesegear]

Once I am past the starter sets I will try to read up on this point. To be clear though, can I, as a relative novice at that point, likely figure out from the faction Codex what is and isn't garbage?

Probably not. If you're good at Excel spreadsheets, you can figure out really quickly. However, there are a couple of things you can look out for. If you go to the main thread, I can help you out. But, with Death Guard, specifically, that's a starter army that a few more people will be able to weigh in on. But yeah. I do have a 'list' of what people who aren't into Math-Hammer can look out for. But, unfortunately, it wont really mean anything unless you play a few games and work out for yourself what seems good.

So, for example, both Plague Marines and Poxwalkers - to me - are considered 'good units'. However, it's kind of hard to explain until you see them in action, against units that don't have their rules. Then, once you see why Plague Marines are good, you'll be able to conceptualise why similar units would also be good.


As far as allies we are talking about (using the Death Guard as an example) other parts of the Chaos faction right? Like the Black Legion or Daemons?

Yes. If your entire army shares a Faction Keyword (e.g; Chaos), you can use them together. Once you start getting into Matched Play, there's a lot more nuance to it. But as far as Open and Narrative is concerned, you're still allowed to use those Super-Faction Keywords whilst still keeping your army Battle-forged.
(If your army isn't Battle-Forged, you can't use Stratagems, which is a huge kick in the ****)


Could you elaborate on this point? Both the "unless you're looking into Kill Team" part and the "Kill Team can implode" part
Purely out of curiosity, what makes [Necrons and Grey Knights] so bad?

Both of those are 'main thread' questions.

EDIT:
In fact, just for you, I'm going to start on a Building on a Budget for Death Guard which will force you into the main thread. :smallwink:

[Tyrant]

At this point I worry that this thread is pushing the normal thread down, perhaps now we've moved on to broader questions (why certain factions don't work, including mine, how to figure out what models work when).

Yeah my intention isn't to overshadow the other thread. I think I have everything I need for now and I will take future questions (once I hopefully have more experience and know what to ask) to the main thread. Thanks everyone for the help.