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View Full Version : So, half-dragons: ridiculously overpowered?



MagFlare
2007-10-01, 07:19 AM
My wife and I are fairly new to the D&D scene, and she's thinking about running a fairly high-powered (~15th level) campaign for the first time. The rest of the party was glancing through the MM and pretty much unanimously decided to make half-dragon characters. She has some plot-related reservations about this - being an immediately-identifiable reptile-lookin' mutant is going to hinder their chances to mingle unnoticed with the populace - but she also has some concerns about balance.

+4 natural armor? +8 Strength? A bunch of other nifty bonuses besides? These guys seem far too powerful for their +3 level adjustment, at least when we're talking about the martial classes.

What's the word?

Also, side question: half-dragons who're also half Player's Handbook race don't get any racial HD, right?

Ranis
2007-10-01, 07:23 AM
Nah, Half-Dragon is a very balanced, extremely overused template. It's more often than not used for flavor purposes of DMs with dragons who like to mate with anything that moves. I personally don't like the template because it's just used far too often.

CaptainSam
2007-10-01, 07:27 AM
If you want ridiculous, try the Half-Celestial/Half-Drow bard!

KIDS
2007-10-01, 07:27 AM
Half dragon is actually considered to be ridiculously underpowered template; for a martial class, the benefits/LA +3 are so-so but won't hurt you as much as templates hurt usually. For anything with caster aspirations, it's a disaster.

Nope, for instance a human or elf half-dragon doesn't get any racial HD. That is correct.

Death Giant
2007-10-01, 07:29 AM
No. They have enough power. Besides, they, like everyone els' has a weakness. I don't know what it is, but they do.

sikyon
2007-10-01, 07:33 AM
With +3 LA, look at it like this. For a weak melee class (fighter) half-dragon is a template applied to a weak class and the class is still weak. Drawbacks of loosing those levels are less, but you had a less powerful starting point anyways. For a stronger class (ToB) then you get to start more powerful when you apply the LA but the levels lost are going to be more powerful again. It's like... if you pick a fighter, you'll be faster in a race but have to start father behind. If you pick a stronger fighter type, you'll be slower in the race but get to start further ahead.

Either way, it still come nowhere near casters, however, especially at those levels.

MagFlare
2007-10-01, 08:02 AM
Thanks, people. I'll direct her to this thread. They were all so enthusiastic about the idea of playing half-dragons, I'd hate it if she had to tell them "no"; I'm glad to see that it looks like it won't be a problem after all provided they can get some sort of hat of disguise or something similar goin' on.

Yakk
2007-10-01, 08:08 AM
So the short answer:
Don't compare a half-dragon to another race.

Compare what you get for a half-dragon at the cost of 3 levels of character advancement.

You can be a L 12 half-dragon or a L 15 normal.

AtomicKitKat
2007-10-01, 09:30 AM
Most Half-Dragons lose the one thing that might actually make the +3 worthwhile. Flight.

The +3 LA isn't really going to be a problem anyway, since your party is playing all Half-Dragons(LA only matters if there's different amounts across all the players). Just means the DM has to be careful with tweaking the encounters, since too high could bust them from fragile HP(The +Con should more than make up at ECL 15, but maybe not), while too low, and they will steamroll.

Yakk
2007-10-01, 10:09 AM
+8 strength: +4 to hit +4 to damage
+4 AC
1d6 bite 1d4 claw attack
+1 HP per level (con)
+1 fort save (con)
+1 skill point per level (int)

+2 cha +2 int for casting (+1 DC, some extra spells)

The save on the breath weapon is really low (10 + con bonus), because you don't have any racial HD.

Using the bite/claw as secondary attacks isn't horrid, but it isn't great.

Compared to 3 fighter levels:
1.5 feats, +3 BaB, 15+conBonus*3 HP.

Some problems:
ALTER SELF is now "change into a dragon of your choice", up to Large size. (the real limitation becomes HD -- no more HD than your caster level). This has some nice features.

Person_Man
2007-10-01, 10:40 AM
With a few exceptions (Feral, Mineral Warrior) templates and races that require level adjustment are almost always a bad idea.

1) If you're playing a full caster (Wizard, Cleric, etc) then few things are more powerful then access to higher level spells. LA slows down your spell progression, and thus its a very bad idea.

2) If you're playing a non-full caster, you usually come out with less then if you just progressed in any normal class. A Half Dragon has +8 Str (+4 to hit and damage), but it also has a BAB 3 lower then it should, which means that its Power Attack damage is 6 damage lower. It has +2 Con, but it has 3 fewer hit dice (typically 3d8, 3d10, or 3d12). Its Saves will be lower. It will have 1 fewer feat. And it won't have any class features from those 3 levels.

3) Anything with LA will have a much harder time getting the "capstone" abilities of certain classes and prestige classes - those uber powerful and useful abilities that only come at ECL 15 (when you typically finish a 10 level PrC) or ECL 20 (when you finish out all 20 levels of one of the more recently published classes, like the Knight).

AtomicKitKat
2007-10-01, 10:55 AM
The Breath Weapon is also once a day, unless you get that Feat from Races of the Dragon(Dragon Breath Feat?), so yeah, it really shouldn't even be considered past about ECL 5(ie, once you've gained 2 HD).

kemmotar
2007-10-01, 11:28 AM
One thing you can do is exploit stuff the template doesn't give you in the form of racial feats...For example you could make a large PC to take advantage of the flight capability. Thus if you take into account flight, it's like getting an extra template for free(the flying creature template from savage species)...

As previously mentioned, there is nothing worse for a full caster as LA...

Get the dragon magic, races of the dragon and draconomicon books if you really want to play a half dragon campaign. That way you can still play half dragons but with more choices in races(for example spellscales or draconic creature template)...These books also contain a number of feats that will allow you to optimize and personalize each player as much as he/she likes.

Having +8 str isnt that bad as long as you take advantage of it correctly to balance out other stats when first rolling stats. For example take 16 to str(if melee class) instead of 18 and add to some other key skill, preferably con since you need it for breaths.

Though i think the dragonborn template would be ideal for your games, since you're also playing high level. Both dragonborns and spellscales are descended form dragons in a way so it wouldn't change the flow of the DM's plan much...

Toliudar
2007-10-01, 11:36 AM
However, as a template to be added to NPC's, who aren't quite so restricted by hit points, it can be great. For spellcasting NPC's, it just gives them a flavour and menace of exoticism. For certain creatures (troll or hydra with the half red or black dragon template applied?), it can make the encounter especially difficult.

Yep, not for PC's, but a fun tool for the DM.

Thrawn183
2007-10-01, 11:36 AM
I like to explain things with examples, so here goes.
Would you rather have a half-dragon Duskblade 12 or a Duskblade 15 in your party? I'd MUCH rather have the Duskblade 15. High level class abilites are usually just too good to pass on.

SexyOchreJelly
2007-10-01, 12:57 PM
Ridiculously overpowered? I'm not sure, but I personally hate them passionately.

Hate... !

Crow
2007-10-01, 01:14 PM
Ridiculously overpowered?

How about ridiculously overdone.

kemmotar
2007-10-01, 01:35 PM
Ridiculously overpowered?

How about ridiculously overdone.

Obviously the OP hasnt encountered much cheese so he thinks its overpowered...in fact most races arent overpowered...its how you build it that's overpowered. Half-dragons arent all that good...though i'm sure that there exists somewhere in the books of D&D a cheese build just for half dragons:smalltongue:

CherryC
2007-10-01, 02:24 PM
I know a chick who is playing a half-dragon. It's definitely not overpowered. Then again, the dragon did spend like 2 feats just to get usable wings.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-10-01, 04:09 PM
LA in general makes you terribly underpowered. Don't underestimate how much it makes you suck. +8 strength isn't worth getting knocked down 3 levels and 3 HD, especially because a 15th level character can actually transform themselves into things with way better racial bonuses for free. Or, you know, completely annihilate a 12HD character with no save.

Seriously, playing a half-dragon is going to make you guys the exact opposite of overpowered.

kemmotar
2007-10-01, 04:47 PM
I know a chick who is playing a half-dragon. It's definitely not overpowered. Then again, the dragon did spend like 2 feats just to get usable wings.

shoulda just spent some k in permanent enlarge person item instead:smalltongue:

mostlyharmful
2007-10-01, 05:03 PM
shoulda just spent some k in permanent enlarge person item instead:smalltongue:

dispell magic.....poof.....you're gone.:smallfrown: no-more wings for you.

Chronos
2007-10-01, 05:12 PM
though i'm sure that there exists somewhere in the books of D&D a cheese build just for half dragonsWell, technically, I suppose they would be "scaled ones", so...

Crazy_Uncle_Doug
2007-10-01, 05:16 PM
I'm in agreement with most here (for once! Woot!) The race as a whole isn't overpowered. I've seen from experience. I was playing a cleric in a party with a half-red dragon Fighter. He thought he was pretty hot pants, but in fact he died faster than any of us and soon found his LA to be a liability. His racial adjustments and benefits were nice, but he reached a point where he decided a new character was far more favorable than yet another death.

As a DM I've used the half-dragon template sparingly. For example, in the last campaign I ran, the players were foiling conspiracies headed by a Very Old Green Dragon. When he finally decided to act against them, he sent in lesser minions first (hobgoblins with class levels), then his offspring (Green Dragons that were loyal to his purposes, but potentially dangerous enough that eventually they'd challenge him. If they win or lose, the Very Old fella comes out ahead).

At last they came to the dragon's lair. First they had to fight through more Hobgoblins. In the outer portions, they came across the Honor Guard: Half-Green Dragon Half-Hobgoblins. I let that set in their minds a bit before continuing. After all, it meant the Very Old fella had to actually breed with hobgoblins to get these...

That was my best use of half-dragons ever. I can't top that, so I'll probably not use them again.

Driderman
2007-10-01, 05:28 PM
Considering the loss of HD, the times I have created half-dragon characters I have usually made it a point to wear a lot of armour so as to avoid getting hit? Also, putting the half-dragon template on a lizardmen helped immensely as it added more strength, constitution and natural armour for only a single level, + actually giving me 3 D12 racial HD. And who'd notice the difference anyway, I'm just a lizardman with horns :D

AtomicKitKat
2007-10-02, 09:31 AM
Considering the loss of HD, the times I have created half-dragon characters I have usually made it a point to wear a lot of armour so as to avoid getting hit? Also, putting the half-dragon template on a lizardmen helped immensely as it added more strength, constitution and natural armour for only a single level, + actually giving me 3 D12 racial HD. And who'd notice the difference anyway, I'm just a lizardman with horns :D

You don't take the higher of 2 LAs. you combine them. Half Dragon Lizardman=2HD+3LA.

Drider
2007-10-02, 11:53 AM
You don't take the higher of 2 LAs. you combine them. Half Dragon Lizardman=2HD+3LA.

More power to him, he made a half-dragon that did'nt become weaker...but yea...I was wondering how he got those results.

Driderman
2007-10-02, 05:46 PM
How it works:
You create lizardman. That gives you 2 Racial HD and a LA of +1. Being a lizardman gives you +2 strength, +2 constitution, -2 intelligence and +5 natural armor.
Adding half-dragon changes your type to dragon and gives you D12 racial HD (although it doesn't change saves or BAB, I remembered wrong) and improves your natural armor by +4.
As most of us probably know, it also improves your ability scores by +8 strength, +2 constitution, +2 intelligence and +2 charisma.
This gives a net ability boost of +10 strength, + 4 constitution and + 2 charisma, with the negative hit to intelligence being removed by the half-dragon bonus. Also, darkvision 60ft and immunity to an energy type, for a total cost of 4 LA (I notice my above post was a bit lacking in numbers, was probably tired while writing).
The only really weak point is the skills, since lizardmen really don't have that interesting skills.
Another thing to consider is that constitution and racial HD are the only way to improve the DC of your dragons breath. The added con bonus and the racial hit die help to improve this, if only by a bit.

For a heavily armored fighter, this is not a bad combination, in my opinion. If you want to improve your natural armor even more there's a feat for it in the Monstrous Manual.

I particularily liked equipping my half black dragon with Red Dragonhide Full plate armor... :smallbiggrin:

kemmotar
2007-10-02, 06:02 PM
I particularily liked equipping my half black dragon with Red Dragonhide Full plate armor... :smallbiggrin:

As a DM i would probably have given you -RP xp since its not a metallic dragon that the armor is made out of...so you are kinda wearing your kin...so unless you do so nice RP explanation next time you try wearing it you might find yourself in a tight situation to explain to the DM the mindset behind wearing it...:smalltongue:

Jasdoif
2007-10-02, 06:10 PM
As a DM i would probably have given you -RP xp since its not a metallic dragon that the armor is made out of...so you are kinda wearing your kin...so unless you do so nice RP explanation next time you try wearing it you might find yourself in a tight situation to explain to the DM the mindset behind wearing it...:smalltongue:Wait, what's the problem supposed to be?

Black dragons are chaotic evil. Red dragons are chaotic evil. Did you really expect the two to get along?

kemmotar
2007-10-02, 06:18 PM
well...supposedly there is a camaraderie between all dragons under tiamat and bahamut...so even though they dont get along the kinda havee the same hate for metallic dragons that connect them along with bahamut, thus its kinda like wearing a comerade...even if you dont like them you dont need to provoke them...

Quietus
2007-10-02, 06:24 PM
well...supposedly there is a camaraderie between all dragons under tiamat and bahamut...so even though they dont get along the kinda havee the same hate for metallic dragons that connect them along with bahamut, thus its kinda like wearing a comerade...even if you dont like them you dont need to provoke them...

Metallic dragons might work together, but chromatic dragons... not so much. They don't even like their own KIDS staying too close.

Driderman
2007-10-02, 06:32 PM
Crazy talk. So, would you also give an orc a penalty for wearing a hat made of Bugbear?

In any case, alignments are a lot less static where I come from. Especially in this campaign. Due to a rather peculiar home-brew setting I was a Lawful Neutral Half-Black Dragon in the service of a Lawful Good Celestial Warlord of some kind (he was dead at the start of the campaign so we never really bothered specifying it)

kemmotar
2007-10-02, 06:40 PM
Well if youying a homebebrew setting its kinda different...But in general i would say that dragons are much different than other creatures so i wouldnt bother comparing dragons with orcs and bugbears...even so orcs and bugbears are different races, whereas dragons are the same race...so it's much like an orc wearing an orc hat...kinda cannibalistinc don't you think?and its something a dragon wouldn't do(cannibalism). In DMG it says that all dragons pretty much hate those that wear dragon scale armor, so a half dragon should follow, at least partly, in the same road. Except, i would say, where the dragons are enemies, so a half black dragon wearing the scales of a silver dragon as a sign of contempt for the power of the metallic dragons and to show his hate for them would be a good RP application that would get you some RP bonuses too:smallbiggrin:

However, wearing red dragon scale armor you could its to remind you of the death of a friend red dragon or something like that, so again you get RP bonuses...so just wearing it isnt really a problem, but explaining it will get you bonuses and not giving a damn might put you in a tight RP spot. That's pretty much what i meant.

AtomicKitKat
2007-10-02, 08:40 PM
Oh yeah. Half-Dragon doesn't actually give you d12s unless you're an Ooze/Construct(the only 2 races which use d10s, and the latter generally doesn't qualify for Half-Dragon either).

0oo0
2007-10-02, 09:30 PM
Well if youying a homebebrew setting its kinda different...But in general i would say that dragons are much different than other creatures so i wouldnt bother comparing dragons with orcs and bugbears...even so orcs and bugbears are different races, whereas dragons are the same race...so it's much like an orc wearing an orc hat...kinda cannibalistinc don't you think?and its something a dragon wouldn't do(cannibalism). In DMG it says that all dragons pretty much hate those that wear dragon scale armor, so a half dragon should follow, at least partly, in the same road. Except, i would say, where the dragons are enemies, so a half black dragon wearing the scales of a silver dragon as a sign of contempt for the power of the metallic dragons and to show his hate for them would be a good RP application that would get you some RP bonuses too:smallbiggrin:

However, wearing red dragon scale armor you could its to remind you of the death of a friend red dragon or something like that, so again you get RP bonuses...so just wearing it isnt really a problem, but explaining it will get you bonuses and not giving a damn might put you in a tight RP spot. That's pretty much what i meant.

I could definitely see an orc wearing the skull of a rival tribe as a symbol of their superiority over said tribe. I think the same idea applies to dragons in a slightly less barbaric fashion.

kemmotar
2007-10-02, 09:33 PM
Pretty much, superiority of chromatic dragons over metallic ones(i cant see the metallic ones doing it though...they're the good guys...

Kaelik
2007-10-02, 09:48 PM
Pretty much, superiority of chromatic dragons over metallic ones(i cant see the metallic ones doing it though...they're the good guys...

What part of the rival orc tribes thing did you not get? Rival orc tribes have a shared hatred of human towns, but that doesn't change that they compete. Black and Red Dragons (and for that matter Red and Red Dragons) compete for the same resources/treasure/slaves what have you. They can display their uncaring attitude and general hatred of kin as well as anyone else.

tobian
2007-10-02, 10:07 PM
From playing one in the last campaign:

No. I do not think that they are overpowered. You could do worse and much better for yourself in terms of power in my opinion.

He was fun to play, but being three levels and three hit dice behind everyone else really sucks at times. I could have been casting spells from the start of the campaign that I did not get until the end when I left.

But note the first part-he was REALLY fun to play-and thats the point of the game. If you enjoy it, then there is nothing to worry about. But as for overpowered? I think not personally.

CaitlynRoe
2007-10-03, 02:54 PM
I'm the wife of the TC.

Thanks for your ideas. I am considering creating an item for the 2 people that will play half-dragons that will allow them to appear human, so the campaign is not limited so half of the party cannot interact with anyone without scaring them away or instigating a fight. Any foreseeable problems there? It IS an evil campaign, so appearing monster-like will be an advantage at times and a disadvantage at other times.

Since the entire group is fairly new (I've only been playing about a year, another played 2.0 a long time ago and nothing else, the other 3 were brand new before joining the group about 3 months ago), I've been sticking to the core books for now, which is one reason I was hesitant to use the MM to create a PC race, since I'm keeping it simple. But I guess it won't add too much confusion (most of the confusion, I'm sure, will come from playing high level characters; the last campaign left them at level 5).

Any other advice or ideas are always appreciated!

kemmotar
2007-10-03, 03:18 PM
I don't think you should limit yourselves to core books since you can have much more fun with other books personalizing you characters, if you're playing evil chars then also look at book of vile darkness(although it's 3e) you might find some interesting concepts.

If you're doing a dragon centric campaign try reading the draconomicon and races of the dragon.For example the spellscale race is perfect for a sorcerer in a draconic campaign(+2 cha, no LA) whereas a half dragon caster would be at a real disadvantage.

AtomicKitKat
2007-10-03, 07:54 PM
Well, for dragon-based campaigning, there's Draconomicon and Races of the Dragon.

For evil-based campaigning, there's Book of Vile Darkness and Champions of Ruin(FR specific, but some stuff from BoVD). Also the 2 Fiendish Codices(Fiendish Codex 1 refers to the Demons of the Abyss, while FC 2 refers to the Devils of Hell).

Note that none of this is strictly necessary, but those are the books most relevant.

You are also not required to stick strictly to the +3 LA given in the book. I recommend dropping 1 LA for every 3-4 levels that the party is at. So a Half-Dragon would be at ECL 4 while the non-dragon party members are going from level 1-4, then he gets to add his second level, so by the time the party hits level 5, he's LA+2 with 3 class levels. Then when the party hits level 8, he's LA+1 with 7 class levels, etc. Sort of like LA buydown, but without as much messy adjustment. Basically, everytime the party hits a multiple of 4, trade in one point of the level adjustment for one "real" level.:smallsmile:

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2007-10-03, 08:06 PM
Half-Dragons don't scale well.
heh. Scale.

--Gwyn

Firefingers
2007-10-03, 08:26 PM
This is targeted at DM's of groups with players with LA's including the TC's wife,

It is sometimes good if you have a few players with LA's to encourage everyone to have a look at things with close or similar LA+RHD (so if you have LA+3 Half dragons encourage players to look at races between +2 and +4 combined LA+RHD) this gives them a chance to play a monstrous race they wouldnt normally consider and also puts all the players on a roughly equal footing levelwise.

This means you can tailor your encounters to the actual strength of the party, I would probably use alot of CR12-14 encounters with a few extra HD each (increases their CR without increasing their offensive potential too much plus directly ties in with your players increased strength and damage)