Help me figure out how to build for sword and board

[Ellrin]

I've been working on a character in a low-magic fantasy setting for a while, and thought it might be fun to try to port him to PF. Only problem is, he focuses on sword and board fighting, and I haven't touched a build like that since my abysmal knight in a 3.5 game nearly ten years ago, so I don't really know where to even start.

The twist in his fighting style is that he tends to use his shield as his primary weapon and his sword as his "off-hand" one (even though he holds it in his dominant hand). His style is also super aggressive—he'll defend if necessary, but once he's close up, he prefers to keep both arms swinging. Obviously TWF, and with that aggressive style I'm sort of leaning towards a slayer—get the ranger TWF style feats and the bonus attack/damage from studied target and sneak attack, but I'm not sold on that. Since I'd like him to be able to perform moderately well and maintain some versatility at higher levels without any spellcasting (I'd consider supernatural abilities, though), I'm thinking I may need to use some DSP or even Spheres classes (though I've never actually gotten around to looking through Spheres).

In terms of other criteria, well, nothing really mechanically crucial. He's a smart, agile type more than a bruiser, and since I'm already going TWF, I'm considering going all in on a Dex build, as well. Reflecting his ability to outthink opponents instead of just outmuscling them, I wouldn't mind some more control-oriented abilities, even at the expense of a little damage. He's a good combat leader, so some passive and/or AOE party support abilities would be nice, but aren't critical for representing that element of his personality. He'd be charismatic if he knew how to turn the intimidation off, and I may invest in an intimidation build to reflect that, though that sort of depends on how effective I could make it. He's also absurdly tough to put down permanently—one of the epithets he picks up is "thousand-lived." I'm not sure if there's room in an effective sword and board build to represent that mechanically, but it'd be neat.

In terms of stuff to rule out other than spells, I do have to draw the line at rage, unfortunately—he fights aggressively and energetically, but he's always in control of himself. Can't think of anything else offhand.

Any and all ideas would be appreciated. Well-regarded 3PP will be duly considered, and while I'd like to keep him PF-focused, if there's anything that seems perfect from 3E/3.5, please feel free to mention it.

[Malphegor]

Knight (PHB2) are probably your best bet, if only because they have a lot of shield-related class features like harassing an enemy with your shield and your bonus going up in some instances.

If you were okay with some spellcasting I'd recommend either Paladin or Knight of the Weave depending on whether you want holy magic or just be a knight-wizard which is cool. Both get shield other and a lot of shieldy abjuration spells.

Tactical Soldier from Minatures Handbook isn't bad. Has a class ability to give 2 adjacent allies of their choice a reflex bonus to AC whilst the soldier fights defensively. Plus your character being a tactical sort works here with teamwork based benefits.

(Tome of Battle probably has stuff that'd work but I have not yet dug into the maneuvers system to really understand what's possible yet beyond 'huh fighters can get shadowy teleportation through sheer fighting power, what?'. Most of them are spell-esque things that are flavoured as maneuvers and fighting styles (think anime) which can work really well from what I've heard... But I'm not familiar enough with them to be able to advise what's good and what's bad)


there's a few shield-related feats, but nothing particularly exciting to be honest.

Feats:

Shield Specialisation from PHB lets you add +1 to a particular kind of shield you like
Which unlocks Active Shield Defense , Agile Shield Fighter , Shield Sling , Shield Ward, Improved Shield Bash

Active Shield Defence lets you make AOOs whilst fighting defensively (at -4 penalty)

Improved Shield Bash lets you keep your AC up while using the shield as a weapon

Agile Shield Fighter lets you change your penalty to attacking with a weapon and a shield in hand to -2. (this might work with TWF I guess to reduce it to 0?)

Shield Sling is how you make a low level Captain America tossing his frisbee, and is fun.

Shield Ward gives you touch AC based on the AC your shield gives


Out of these, I feel Active Shield Defence and Shield Ward are the interesting ones, but Shield Sling is just fun to have as an option imo.

Ooh, here's one. Parrying Shield, from Lords of Madness, it... adds your shield bonus to your touch AC. ... wait, isn't that the same as Shield Ward? This is... well, MADNESS!

... unless.. they can add together? Parrying says it's in addition to your touch AC. Huh. Worth looking into I guess.


Pin Shield (Complete Warrior) might work for a fun combat maneuver. If you count your shield as an offhand weapon, you could use your shield to lock into someone else's shield, denying them their shield bonus. That's kinda cool, though dependent on your enemy having physical shields like yourself. Campaign-dependent I guess.


You'd think Phalanx Fighting from Complete Warrior would be good- nothing more epic than Roman soldiers in formation forming a wall, but the bonuses aren't that impressive imo. Handy if you've got a feat spare and a party member or cohort who also uses a shield maybe?

Turtle Dart (Races of Stone), you don't provoke AOOs by moving away from someone you just attacked with a short sword, presumably because as you move you bring your shield up making your enemy hesitate? Prerequisites are a really specific kind of armour and shield. I can see this working to make for some fun gameplay (especially as most shield feats imply you're standing your ground in formation) but the prereqs are weird.


Ah, here's an interesting one. Shieldmate (Minatures Handbook). Adjacent friendly creatures gain +1 to their armour class, +2 if you use a tower shield. (extra plus one is in Improved Shieldmate) There's spells that do that, and even classes (Tactical Soldier) that do a limited version of that, but that's a cool way to do it... Though anyone can use the Aid Another action to give one ally +2 to AC. I'd recommend speaking with your DM to see if you can do both at once, so one ally gets +3 from Aid another plus Shieldmate, and then the rest near you get +1.


A lot of these, especially the Miniatures Handbook, kinda push you into moving in turtle formation as a group.

I've heard good things about getting an animated shield, but that kind of defeats the object imo.

[Mehangel]

Well, if you want to be a sword & board user with SoM, I would look at the Shield (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/shield) sphere. Since, it looks like you want to dual wield with both sword and shield, I would probably suggest dipping into the Dual Wielding (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/dual-wielding) sphere. Because you want to be tough to kill, without using rage, I would suggest looking into the Guardian (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/guardian) sphere.

Class-wise, I would suggest either Conscript (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/conscript) (for all the talents) or Sentinel (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/sentinel) (for increased survivability).

[exelsisxax]

Well, 1pp S&B is garbage so it's a good thing you can use 3pp.

As an alternative to the SoM method Mehangel laid out above, you could use Path of War to make a useful shield-based character. Anyone with the Iron Tortise discipline is automatically better than anything paizo has published for shield users. Warders are also general defense, tank, and control specialists and there's an archetype that trades out heavy armor features for TWF-support features, but annoyingly trades out iron tortise(you can get it back, though). it looks almost exactly what you're going for.

[Serafina]

I'd definetly recommend Spheres of Might, and the Shield Sphere.
Spheres of Might isn't complicated, as far as 3PP content goes - it's just a bunch of talents you can get (provided by several classes, archetypes, or traded out for feats) that do pretty clearly defined things, that scale off either BAB or skill points, and that interact with the Attack Action or Combat Maneuvers.
But for all that, it's remarkably effective at making your character able to do several nice things, while still being effective and eliminating several of the usual problems martial characters have.

From the Shield Sphere, you could grab Smashing Counter to make a Shield Bash attack every time you make an opponent miss you with your Active Defense (=spend an AoO to get +2 to AC, +1/4 BAB). Free extra attacks are pretty great, and sound very much like what you want. Bashing Shield is what enables you to keep your Shield-bonus to AC when making Shield-bashes.

From the Equipment Sphere, Tower Shield Mastery negates the attack penalty from Tower Shields, and allows you to make Shield Bashes with them that deal a whole 1D8 damage (and more with Spikes). Versatile Shield can allow you to add the Shields Enhancement bonus to AC to your Shield Bashes - but you can always get the Shield (or it's Spikes) enchanted too, so this can be redundant.

The Dual Wielding Sphere does indeed enable nice two-weapon fighting - as a standard action, so you can move just fine while using it. If you use a Heavy Shield or Tower Shield in your main hand, you'll want a light weapon in your off-hand, but that should be fine. That can work really well with Critical Follow-Up for some Crit-Fishing, if you're into that. There's a bunch of other nice talents, take a look.

And don't neglect other Spheres either. Berserker, Duelist, Fencing, all have nice combo-potential for melee weapon users, once you can spare the talents.

[upho]

I've been working on a character in a low-magic fantasy setting for a while, and thought it might be fun to try to port him to PF. Only problem is, he focuses on sword and board fighting, and I haven't touched a build like that since my abysmal knight in a 3.5 game nearly ten years ago, so I don't really know where to even start.This shouldn't be a problem at all in PF. Shield fighting can be made very strong and has a few quite unique options.


The twist in his fighting style is that he tends to use his shield as his primary weapon and his sword as his "off-hand" one (even though he holds it in his dominant hand). Seems reasonable, as his shield is likely going to be the far stronger weapon. But keep in mind PF (and especially with DSP options) allow for TWF-ing with a polearm and a shield at relatively low cost. Reach is king, and even more so in PF than in 3.5, since the control options you have can be much stronger. Although this also depends on whether you're interested in going switch-hitting or not, which can actually be done very effectively with a shield, allowing you to seamlessly blend thrown and melee control attacks with great results, in best Captain America Andoran style!


His style is also super aggressive—he'll defend if necessary, but once he's close up, he prefers to keep both arms swinging. Obviously TWF, and with that aggressive style I'm sort of leaning towards a slayer—get the ranger TWF style feats and the bonus attack/damage from studied target and sneak attack, but I'm not sold on that.I'd advice against this, primarily because there are much stronger options even if limited to 1PP material, most notably the Shield Champion (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/brawler/archetypes/paizo-brawler-archetypes/shield-champion/) brawler (that 7th level feature can be made ridiculously strong), and the slayer is mostly a static damage-boosting class. Also, especially without PoW or SoM you're going to need a ton of feats just to get going, and the slayer won't give you nearly enough. So you may have to prepare for some serious class-hopping...


Since I'd like him to be able to perform moderately well and maintain some versatility at higher levels without any spellcasting (I'd consider supernatural abilities, though), I'm thinking I may need to use some DSP or even Spheres classes (though I've never actually gotten around to looking through Spheres).DSP stuff can certainly increase both your versatility and power considerably. How far you'd like to go depends on your preferences and the power level of your game.


In terms of other criteria, well, nothing really mechanically crucial. He's a smart, agile type more than a bruiser, and since I'm already going TWF, I'm considering going all in on a Dex build, as well. Reflecting his ability to outthink opponents instead of just outmuscling them, I wouldn't mind some more control-oriented abilities, even at the expense of a little damage.Keep in mind that dealing hp damage isn't necessarily the most effective thing you can do in combat - melee control/debuff can be at least as good in PF.


He's a good combat leader, so some passive and/or AOE party support abilities would be nice, but aren't critical for representing that element of his personality. He'd be charismatic if he knew how to turn the intimidation off, and I may invest in an intimidation build to reflect that, though that sort of depends on how effective I could make it. He's also absurdly tough to put down permanently—one of the epithets he picks up is "thousand-lived." I'm not sure if there's room in an effective sword and board build to represent that mechanically, but it'd be neat.This simply screams warder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/classes/warder/) to me - a very tough defender using Int to improve combat effectiveness and protect the party. You can easily make him darn frightening as well using for example the Bruising Intellect (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/social-traits/bruising-intellect/) trait and Intimidating Prowess (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/intimidating-prowess-combat/), Cornugon Smash (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/cornugon-smash-combat/) and (potentially game-breaking) Soulless Gaze (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/damnation-feats/soulless-gaze-damnation/). Pairs beautifully with the Intimidate-based defender-focused Eternal Guardian (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/eternal-guardian-maneuvers/) discipline.


Any and all ideas would be appreciated. Well-regarded 3PP will be duly considered, and while I'd like to keep him PF-focused, if there's anything that seems perfect from 3E/3.5, please feel free to mention it.I'd be happy to help you out with more details, but I'd like to know three things first:

What is the approximate power level of this game? (You can make very effective shield combatants in PF, especially with DSP stuff, and they'll be ill-suited for a low-op game.)
Starting and approximate expected end level?
Will the trip combat maneuver follow the PF rules (you can't trip flying enemies) or the 3.5 rules (you can trip flying enemies)? (This may actually be of great importance.)

EDIT: Just to give you an idea of the possibilities, here's an old shield switch-hitter example build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?454387-Wolf-Trip-Shield-Champion-Intimidation-Martial-Control-of-Gravitas) I made. Some of the combos would use different components today, but everything "Newton" does can be done at least as effectively with the current Paizo and DSP options. /EDIT