Monk sneak attack

[carrdrivesyou]

So my friend is making a shadow monk for an upcoming game, and was curious. Why don't shadow monks get some sort of sneak attack? Wouldn't it make sense? Maybe not to the extent of a rogue, but maybe half that? Perhaps a d6 every three of four levels? Would this break the game balance at all? Fellow Playgrounders, what do you think? Would this invalidate the rogue in some way?

[jaappleton]

So my friend is making a shadow monk for an upcoming game, and was curious. Why don't shadow monks get some sort of sneak attack? Wouldn't it make sense? Maybe not to the extent of a rogue, but maybe half that? Perhaps a d6 every three of four levels? Would this break the game balance at all? Fellow Playgrounders, what do you think? Would this invalidate the rogue in some way?

Shadow Monks utilize insane mobility and (essentially) teleportation to get the drop on their enemies, granting advantage. Adding Sneak Attack to the Shadow Monks features makes them far exceed the damage of the other Monastic Traditions.

Now, if you want to go Monk 5 / Rogue 5, go for it.

[tieren]

They do in a way, they get advantage on the hit they make after using their shadow step ability, presumably because its easier for them to hit people when sneaking through the shadows.

With scaling monk weapon die and the ability to do a lot of individual attacks (flurry of blows, extra attack, etc...) it would be overkill to give them sneak attack damage as well.

Sneak attack is balanced on a rogue because they do only get the one attack.

[Coffee_Dragon]

You might as well ask why everyone doesn't get some sort of sneak attack when the conditions seem right.

[carrdrivesyou]

You might as well ask why everyone doesn't get some sort of sneak attack when the conditions seem right.

Huh. When you put it that way, it makes a sort of sense. It would be like saying add Xd6 to any attack that has advantage.

[Tectorman]

You might as well ask why everyone doesn't get some sort of sneak attack when the conditions seem right.

Yet another of the myriad reasons why I love Anima Beyond Fantasy. Thieves, Assassins, and Acrobatic Warriors inherently have better stats to pull off that system's version of a sneak attack, but it's a part of the combat system that literally everyone and their grandmother can do.

[mythmonster2]

You might as well ask why everyone doesn't get some sort of sneak attack when the conditions seem right.

Everyone does get sneak attack: it's called advantage. Rogues are just better at taking advantage of the opportunity to deal more damage.

[Vogie]

Because if you want that, you'll take a couple levels of rogue.

Lots of the mundane attack modifiers, things like Sneak attack, brutal criticals and/or maneuvers, could theoretically be available for all classes, but they're there to divide up the different classes. Like the Druid-metal-armor snafu, the Sneak-attack-finesse issue also doesn't make a ton of sense, doubly so as Rogues start with Longsword proficiency.

I mean, theoretically, I could see a Leverage- or Oceans-11-style campaign where all characters have a couple levels of Rogue and Martial Adept in addition to their "normal" class and features (for example, a level 2 wizard would also have 2 levels of Rogue, but isn't a level 4 character), but that'd be a bit hard to balance encounters.

[MrStabby]

I have only ever seen one shadowmonk that didn't get sneak attack damage. Probably because that game ended level 5.

It may just be me but I see a number of identikit shadowmonks get to level 6, then add a couple of levels of rogue.



It is one of the advantages of playing a character, rather than a class combination. If it makes sense for your character to have sneak attack you can just add it from the rogue class in the proportion you want - it is a consequence of the type of shadowmonk they are rather than them saying "ok now I am going to go and train with some rogues now".

[Hytheter]

the Sneak-attack-finesse issue also doesn't make a ton of sense, doubly so as Rogues start with Longsword proficiency.

My opinion is that longswords should actually have finesse.

[stoutstien]

My opinion is that longswords should actually have finesse.
Pretty much if u limit sneak attack to ranged and 1hd weapons 1d8 and under it's fine

[MeeposFire]

Frankly if a rogue were able to use any weapon with sneak attack using a two handed sword would still not be a big deal in terms of damage. The difference between 2d6 and the 1d8 from a rapier is an average damage difference of 2.5 points. The damage die of a weapon matters more for characters that make multiple attacks (also GWF feat is not a big deal because rogues already get access to the sharp shooter feat and it is not as good as you think since the accuracy loss hurts more on a class that makes only one attack and already does a lot of damage on that hit, those feats work better on a fighter since they make more attacks with less base damage).

The main reason rogues cannot use weapons like two handed swords is a thematic one more than an actual balance one.

[stoutstien]

Frankly if a rogue were able to use any weapon with sneak attack using a two handed sword would still not be a big deal in terms of damage. The difference between 2d6 and the 1d8 from a rapier is an average damage difference of 2.5 points. The damage die of a weapon matters more for characters that make multiple attacks (also GWF feat is not a big deal because rogues already get access to the sharp shooter feat and it is not as good as you think since the accuracy loss hurts more on a class that makes only one attack and already does a lot of damage on that hit, those feats work better on a fighter since they make more attacks with less base damage).

The main reason rogues cannot use weapons like two handed swords is a thematic one more than an actual balance one.
Mostly if they could use PaM and sneak attack it would be out of line.
Easy reaction attacks means lots of sneak attacks

[Hytheter]

Yeah, I think Polearm Master is the only true offender when it comes to hypothetical Sneak Attacks. GWM would make some brutal Barb-Rogues but I'm not sure it's much more powerful than existing options if at all.

I like finesse longswords on its own for a number of reasons though, and making that change doesn't really open anything up; if anything all it does it make longswords stop sucking.

[Foxhound438]

Adding Sneak Attack to the Shadow Monks features makes them far exceed the damage of the other Monastic Traditions.

Mechanically, this is pretty much it. Monk is a class that has almost all of its damage features in the the base class with subclasses adding mostly utility. They do tend to get a damage boost at 17th, ie quivering palm or opportunist. Honestly opportunist is kind of a bad fit on a class that tends to want to play hit and run, so i wouldn't be completely opposed to giving like 1 or 2 die sneak attack at 17th, but more than that or earlier in levels would make shadow overpowered compared to other monk options.

[Particle_Man]

I find it odd that unarmed attacks don't count as finesse weapons. It would also help with the defensive duelist feat.

And this thread is making me remember 1st edition, where half-orc fighter/thieves and fighter/assassins can indeed backstab with two-handed swords, polearms, what have you. And since back then the backstab was simply a damage multiplier, the size of the weapon did make a difference. :smallbiggrin:

Hmmmm . . . a 1st ed 17th level monk dual-classed into 18th level thief would have a nasty unarmed backstab! ;) Or would it? I wonder if open-hand damage would not be allowed with the thief backstab.

[BMF]

I find it odd that unarmed attacks don't count as finesse weapons.

In my humble opinion, any DM that rules that a multi-classed monk/rogue can't sneak attack with their fists is lame.

[stoutstien]

In my humble opinion, any DM that rules that a multi-classed monk/rogue can't sneak attack with their fists is lame.
Second this. Out side of AL no reason not to allow it.

[MrStabby]

In my humble opinion, any DM that rules that a multi-classed monk/rogue can't sneak attack with their fists is lame.

That was me. Never played 5th. Never DMed before. I had more faith in the designers when I started than my ability to houserule these things as being OK. I just didn't have a lot of faith in myself as an inexperienced DM to handle any unexpected consequences.

[Errata]

I find it odd that unarmed attacks don't count as finesse weapons.

For a normal character where it's strength based, it's consistent that it's not considered finesse. For a Monk, who can choose to make them dex or strength, exactly like a finesse weapon (even though it's technically not considered that), it just seems like an oversight in the rules. It would be nice if the Monk rules instead of saying they could use dex said that they could treat them as a finesse weapon, and then it wouldn't need a house rule to make Monk/Rogue work.

There's no reason that Monk/Rogue shouldn't work. Mechanically it's not overpowered, and with that minor tweak it's not underpowered. And thematically, that's basically what a ninja is. There's every reason to support having characters fall somewhere in between Monk and Rogue.

[carrdrivesyou]

For a normal character where it's strength based, it's consistent that it's not considered finesse. For a Monk, who can choose to make them dex or strength, exactly like a finesse weapon (even though it's technically not considered that), it just seems like an oversight in the rules. It would be nice if the Monk rules instead of saying they could use dex said that they could treat them as a finesse weapon, and then it wouldn't need a house rule to make Monk/Rogue work.

There's no reason that Monk/Rogue shouldn't work. Mechanically it's not overpowered, and with that minor tweak it's not underpowered. And thematically, that's basically what a ninja is. There's every reason to support having characters fall somewhere in between Monk and Rogue.

With this train of thought, I can see WotC releasing some sort of UA Ninja subclass for the monk. I mean, they already have the samurai for the fighter, so why not bring on the ninjas? I could see a limited version of sneak attack being implemented, but I wonder how that would work without the Shadow monk's abilities. Maybe they could burn Ki to gain advantage on stealth or some such. I think that would be interesting, but I also think it could reduce interest in the shadow monk to near zero.

[MilkmanDanimal]

With this train of thought, I can see WotC releasing some sort of UA Ninja subclass for the monk. I mean, they already have the samurai for the fighter, so why not bring on the ninjas? I could see a limited version of sneak attack being implemented, but I wonder how that would work without the Shadow monk's abilities. Maybe they could burn Ki to gain advantage on stealth or some such. I think that would be interesting, but I also think it could reduce interest in the shadow monk to near zero.

I'd doubt it, as Shadow Monk is already pretty much 95% of the way to Pop Culture Ninja anyways. Darkness! Teleport! Invisibility! I just don't think there's enough room left in a traditional "ninja" concept to differentiate it from the Shadow Monk.

[stoutstien]

All they need to do is allow darts to be monk weapons.

[JNAProductions]

All they need to do is allow darts to be monk weapons.

Are they not?

I thought they were.

[BMF]

That was me. Never played 5th. Never DMed before. I had more faith in the designers when I started than my ability to houserule these things as being OK. I just didn't have a lot of faith in myself as an inexperienced DM to handle any unexpected consequences.

I am very sympathetic to this, and I should amend to say that inexperienced DMs being conservative and RAW-focused is not lame at all! I acted the same way about a lot of stuff.

[stoutstien]

Are they not?

I thought they were.
Nope. Short swords and simple melee weapons that are not heavy or two handed. ☹️

[Vogie]

All they need to do is allow darts to be monk weapons.


Are they not?

I thought they were.

They aren't, even though the monk starts with them.


At 1st level, your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use unarmed strikes and monk weapons, which are shortswords and any simple melee weapons that don’t have the two- handed or heavy property.

And a dart is a ranged weapon. You can still throw daggers, which are finesse melee weapons.

I have a Kensai lizardfolk rolled up and ready to go when I can find a group to play it, as I think the idea that a "vow of poverty" Kensai Lizardfolk using their Cunning Artisan ability to create darts and javelins out of what they have slain each rest, which would be made monk weapons due to the Path of the Kensai feature.