11th Wizard & Cleric Vs. Balor, maybe? - 3.5 CORE

[Durinnator]

Hi! This is my first post and english isn't my native language so excuse me in advance. :smallsmile:. I am trying to come up with a scenario where a mid lv party defeats a Balor, without being too far fetched. I am aware this is kinda ridiculous, being balors such powerful opponents, even for a 20 level party. Still i thought i would be fun. Here is what i got, plus modifications based on the comments:

-Wizard with flying, high mobility familiar, learns Anti Magic Field. A Hawk for example, an Imp (Improved Familiar) may be better.
-Wizard & Cleric find out/divine they are fighting/meeting a Balor soon. This could happen in many ways, it's role playing. Here two scenarios i think are plausible: 1-Wizard and Cleric, intimidated to servitude by the balor, finally are meeting the balor itself, in the material plane. How they came under its command is up to your imagination. 2-Cleric obtains/buys a chaotic evil Candle of Invocation, ambitious/mad Wizard and Cleric decide to use it to lure a balor into the material plane.
-Wizard buys a scroll of Forcecage. He also inscribes several scrolls of Anti Magic Field. The strategy assumes Antimagic Field does not cancels Forcecage. Antimagic Field description suggesting ("such as...") that spells not affected are not limited to Wall of Force, Prismatic Wall and Prismatic Sphere. Forcecage descriptions suggesting it functions like a Wall of Force.
-Cleric uses divination spell to know when the encounter is gonna happen. When and where could be role played. If not, Cleric's Divination (81% chance of success and DM call) will have to suffice.
-Wizard and Cleric hire henchmen, maybe ten or more 1st lv Warior armed with comp. longbows. Also they buy a ****load of arrows. There is a better way, as it was proposed in a comment, see below.
-Prior to combat Wizard casts Anti Magic Field on Familiar. Anti Magic Field has personal range, it can be cast on the familiar throught Share Spells (familiar feature).
-Balor shows up, possibly by teleport (or called), Balor wins initiative and uses Firestorm, Implosion or Blasphemy. Wizard and Cleric are, hopefully, protected by Anti Magic Field. (If Balor goes melee it disrupts the strategy). Following "Tactics round by round" on the MM Balor's entry. The tactic also assumes the balor does not percieves the Wizard and the Cleric as serious treats, being relatively such weak opponents. It's clear that if the balor tries actively to hunt and kill the Wizard and the Cleric it would succeed without effort. The encounter should start with an "indiferent" balor that would not waste resources, otherwise it'd be hopeless. Also, Wizard and Cleric could win initiative or even get a surprise round, in the right context.
-Familiar moves over the Balor while Wizard traps it with Barred Forcecage. If DM allows 10 ft Cube Barred Forcecage then the Balor is fully within the Anti Magic Field: cannot use any SLA or attack through the cage. If only 20 ft. version is allowed the Cleric must have Magic or Protection domains, cast Anti Magic Field on herself, then coordinate position with Wizard's familiar, maybe too hard to accomplish. Familiar stays out of the Forcecage, familiar and Wizard act at the same initiative count, as soon as familiar moves away, Wizard could activate scroll (90% chance of success only). If the Wizard and Cleric also know exactly where the balor will appear (by its own means or by calling), the Forcecage could be cast prior to the encounter. I didn't feel a modified Barred Forcecage, with reduced size, was too much to ask to a DM, being an smaller "windowless cell" version (the Wizard could teleport to a known grand archmage and ask/pay for the spell). If the 20ft version is the only one in play one Antimagic Field outside the cage would not be enough to cover the balor moving space, if the Wizard and the Cleric know where it will pop additional Forcecage scrolls, windowless cell version, could be used prior to the encounter to limit its movement. Another way could be a very expensive adamantine 3-sided open 10 ft. cube (Fabricate from raw adamantine) or whatever you come up with. Without the reduced size barred Forcecage i find the tactic too complicated, please suggest alternatives.
-Balor is trapped, can be attacked through the bars, althougt with cover. Forcecage lasts more than a day, Anti Magic Field less than two hours, Anti Magic Field can be refreshed. "half-inch gaps" between the bars, that's a very limited space. Medium size arrows/bolts, maybe a medium rapier or a small longspear could fit between the gaps. Any of the balor attacks, or even its fingers, would not.
-Balor shot-down by the henchmen far away. Double 20s only (0.25 chance per shot?), also gotta pierce the DR, could take a while and a LOT of arrows. Some buffing may help. Another user, "Biggus", proposed a buff/attack routine involving the Wizard and the Cleric only that i found much more effective, check it out (only Greater Magic Weapons wouldn't apply, i think). About the balor's DR, as per Monster Manual I errata, it's supernatural, it does not function in a Antimagic Field.
-Balor dies and explodes killing, at least, Wizard's Familiar.

What do you think, something wrong or ridiculous? What would you change to make this strategy work? Any other way of killing a balor with a mid level party? Thank you.

I've been trying to come up with alternatives, raw ideas:
-Fabricate a 11ft sided glass cubic container, fill it with acid (buy/craft it), put it where the balor will pop, windowless Forcecage with Antimagic Field imbued Familiar on top.
-Fabricate from raw lead several 200 pounds lead darts or ball-like weights. Shrink them by Shrink Item, using the same command word. Drop all the lead and un-shrink upon the balor from at least 210 ft. high, by Fly spell. I would be simpler to Fabricate only one item of 1-2 tons and shrink it, i'm not sure if there is a 20d6 cap on the falling object damage. In my opinion, 1 ton of lead falling from 200 ft. upon someone should not inflict the same damage as 200 pounds.

[noob]

Does not works unless the bows are small since forcecage stops projectiles that are shot in function of the weapon that shoots them not of the size of the arrows.
since you need to use small bows you would need to use arrows which pierce the dr (silver holy arrows? I forgot.) also the worst case is "balors teleports and gets a surprise round and firestorms from far away and thus have no problems with your short range tactic and the balor stays far away until you lose antimagic zone or your familar goes close to the balor and since you are not close enough you can not forcecage the balor(so the familiar dies with no effect to an attack of the balor)"

You need to be very mobile too.

[Durinnator]

Does not works unless the bows are small since forcecage stops projectiles that are shot in function of the weapon that shoots them not of the size of the arrows.
since you need to use small bows you would need to use arrows which pierce the dr (silver holy arrows? I forgot.) also the worst case is "balors teleports and gets a surprise round and firestorms from far away and thus have no problems with your short range tactic and the balor stays away until you lose antimagic zone"

Thx for your reply! But, i don't undestand. Why wouldn't medium size arrows, shot from a medium size bow, fit throught a half inch gap? To overcome the DR 15, with a medium comp. longbow, with 14 str rating(henchmen with elite array) you need to roll 4 or higher on your dmg die (d8 for the bow). As i see it, you don't need good align, cold iron arrows, just maaany regular arrows and time. If arrows are short in supply you could try to convince the henchmen to attack the balor with longspears until it's on death's door.

On the surprise round, it wouldn't be one, won't be? If the divination was succesful the Cleric knows when the Balor will appear. The Balor, not expecting this kind of tactic, would follow its regular routine, most likely Blasphemy on short range, being the Wizard and the Cleric low threats. A hawk familiar would close the gap in a single move action. But, if the Balor somehow knew about the plan or simply decided to attack the party from range, the strategy would not work, as you imply. :smallbiggrin:

[noob]

Thx for your reply! But, i don't undestand. Why wouldn't medium size arrows, shot from a medium size bow, fit throught a half inch gap? To overcome the DR 15, with a medium comp. longbow, with 14 str rating(henchmen with elite array) you need to roll 4 or higher on your dmg die (d8 for the bow). As i see it, you don't need good align, cold iron arrows, just maaany regular arrows and time. If arrows are short in supply you could try to convince the henchmen to attack the balor with longspears until it's on death's door.

it is how forcecage rules are written: it checks the size of the weapon and not of the projectile(so it is the bow that needs to be smaller than half an inch) and due to that we need small bows and those deals low damage.

[Durinnator]

it is how forcecage rules are written: it checks the size of the weapon and not of the projectile(so it is the bow that needs to be smaller than half an inch) and due to that we need small bows and those deals low damage.

Could you tell me where? I fail to find that ruling in the SRD. (I cannot post the URL, being a new member with less than 10 posts) Thy.

[Biggus]

it is how forcecage rules are written: it checks the size of the weapon and not of the projectile(so it is the bow that needs to be smaller than half an inch) and due to that we need small bows and those deals low damage.

Where are you getting this from? The Forcecage description in the SRD just says "You can’t attack a creature in a barred cage with a weapon unless the weapon can fit between the gaps. Even against such weapons (including arrows and similar ranged attacks), a creature in the barred cage has cover."

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forcecage.htm

[DEMON]

it is how forcecage rules are written: it checks the size of the weapon and not of the projectile(so it is the bow that needs to be smaller than half an inch) and due to that we need small bows and those deals low damage.


You can’t attack a creature in a barred cage with a weapon unless the weapon can fit between the gaps.
Even against such weapons (including arrows and similar ranged attacks), a creature in the barred cage has cover.

Emphasis mine. I would argue that the bolded part suggests that arrows are, in this instance, considered weapons that need to be able to fit through the gaps.

[Bronk]

-Wizard & Cleric find out/divine they are fighting/meeting a Balor soon.
-Cleric uses divination spell to know when the encounter is gonna happen.


While they're at it, they can discover exactly where the balor will show up too.



-Balor shows up, possibly by teleport, Balor wins initiative and uses Firestorm, Implosion or Blasphemy. Wizard and Cleric are, hopefully, protected by Anti Magic Field. (If Balor goes melee it disrupts the strategy).

If you know where and when it will appear, you can ready actions and/or act in the surprise round.



-Familiar moves over the Balor while Wizard traps it with Barred Forcecage. If DM allows 10 ft Cube Barred Forcecage then the Balor is fully within the Anti Magic Field: cannot use any SLA or attack through the cage. If only 20 ft. version is allowed the Cleric must have Magic or Protection domains, cast Anti Magic Field on herself, then coordinate position with Wizard's familiar, maybe too hard to accomplish.

There's only either the 20' cube bar version or the 10' cube solid version of forcecage. If you know where the balor will be and when, you can set your trap ahead of time. Cast the 20' version, then fill in all the spaces you don't want your balor to go, maybe with the 'move earth' spell or something - maybe even a few regular 10 foot forcecages. Then, the familiar moves in during the surprise round, and all the hirelings can fire away with arrows that are both cold iron and good. It might actually be easier and/or less expensive to have people jab at it with lances from closer range since the balor can't attack outwards anyway.

You might want to use a scroll of dimensional lock while you're at it, in case something goes wrong. This whole scenario is dependent on you getting the drop on the balor and everything going to plan, but if the antimagic field goes down for whatever reason, you don't want it to just teleport out... you'd want plenty of time to run away.

[Biggus]

Emphasis mine. I would argue that the bolded part suggests that arrows are, in this instance, considered weapons that need to be able to fit through the gaps.

That's true, but that's not what noob is saying. They said "it checks the size of the weapon and not of the projectile(so it is the bow that needs to be smaller than half an inch)". That's the part I'm asking them where they got it from.

[Crichton]

That's true, but that's not what noob is saying. They said "it checks the size of the weapon and not of the projectile(so it is the bow that needs to be smaller than half an inch)". That's the part I'm asking them where they got it from.


unless the weapon can fit between the gaps

He's looking at this line, I believe, and taking that to mean it ignores the size of the ammo. But, as was pointed out earlier, it ALSO directly references that arrows do qualify, so...

[Eldariel]

DR Evil is Su so you only need Cold Iron Arrows (convenient since Holy doesn't work in an AMF either). But no, Str 14 henchmen with 1d8+2 can't penetrate DR15 outside crits. Warrior 1s can't afford Composite Bows in the first place though so it takes a bit longer unless you specifically buy 'em.

Otherwise, yes, AMF + Forcecage does trap a Balor but getting it in one is a bit trickier and not at all reliable. In other words, it comes down to infornation wars and the grander layout of the fight as per usual on this level.

[Biggus]

He's looking at this line, I believe, and taking that to mean it ignores the size of the ammo. But, as was pointed out earlier, it ALSO directly references that arrows do qualify, so...

Oh, I see. Well, yes, normally as you say it would make sense to argue that "weapon" means the bow not the arrow, if it weren't for the fact that the very next line specifically says that weapons in this case includes arrows...

[noob]

Oh, I see. Well, yes, normally as you say it would make sense to argue that "weapon" means the bow not the arrow, if it weren't for the fact that the very next line specifically says that weapons in this case includes arrows...

Except that arrows can also be used as an improvised weapon independently

[Biggus]

DR Evil is Su so you only need Cold Iron Arrows (convenient since Holy doesn't work in an AMF either).

Where does it say that DR/ Evil is supernatural? It makes sense, but I can't find anywhere that it actually says that.

[Eldariel]

Where does it say that DR/ Evil is supernatural? It makes sense, but I can't find anywhere that it actually says that.
On phone so no links but at least rules compendium. It's somewhere on SRD too though. Probably special abilities > damage reduction if I had to guess.

[Crichton]

Except that arrows can also be used as an improvised weapon independently

So the words "arrows and similar ranged attacks" don't indicate that they're referring to arrows that have been shot normally?

[InvisibleBison]

Familiar moves over the Balor while Wizard traps it with Barred Forcecage. If DM allows 10 ft Cube Barred Forcecage then the Balor is fully within the Anti Magic Field: cannot use any SLA or attack through the cage. If only 20 ft. version is allowed the Cleric must have Magic or Protection domains, cast Anti Magic Field on herself, then coordinate position with Wizard's familiar, maybe too hard to accomplish.

What's to stop the balor from simply killing the familiar, then teleporting away? Note that it has at-will greater dispel magic, so a dimensional anchor isn't going to hold it for long.

[Biggus]

Except that arrows can also be used as an improvised weapon independently

True, but doesn't that further contradict your earlier point that "weapon" means the bow not the arrow in this case?


On phone so no links but at least rules compendium. It's somewhere on SRD too though. Probably special abilities > damage reduction if I had to guess.

It's not in the damage reduction section of the SRD, it is in the RC though, thanks. It also says in the RC that DR/ Cold Iron is supernatural as well, so you wouldn't even need cold iron arrows.



-Balor shot-down by the henchmen far away. Double 20s only (0.25 chance per shot?), also gotta pierce the DR, could take a while and a LOT of arrows. Some buffing may help.

This would work, but it'd take about 2 hours and use an average of 7200 arrows. It'd be 20GP per hit, at an average of 16.5 damage per hit that'd be 360GP worth of arrows plus 2000GP for ten composite longbows each with a +1 Str bonus, not to mention the cost of hiring the henchmen.

A more efficient way would be:

The Cleric casts extended Divine Power, Divine Favor and Cat's Grace on themself, and the Wizard casts Greater Heroism and extended Haste on them and GMW on their bow. Assuming the Cleric has Dex 10 to start with, they now have a ranged attack of +23/23/18/13, hitting on a 16/16/20/20 (AC 39 including +4 for cover) for an average of 0.6 hits per round. If the Cleric has at least Str 12 to begin with they can use a composite longbow with a +4 Str bonus, for an average of 8.5 damage per hit, meaning an average of 5.1 damage per round.

The Wizard casts Cat's Grace, Bull's Strength, and Heroism on themself and GMW on their bow, and are also affected by the extended Haste. Assuming they start with Str 10 and Dex 12, they now have an attack bonus of +15. On alternate rounds they cast True Strike to make their next attack at +33 and fire two arrows from a composite longbow with a +2 Str bonus at +33/13, needing a 6 and a 20 to hit, for an average of 0.4 hits per round at 6.5 average damage, or 2.6 damage per round (as they're only firing on alternate rounds).

It'd take an average of 38 rounds to kill the Balor at that rate; actually it'd be slightly less as on average you'd expect them to get one critical hit each, so about 34-35 rounds. You'd have to recast the extended Haste, Divine Power and Divine Favor, which adds 2 rounds back on, so about 36-37 rounds in total.

The Wizard only needs to scribe one scroll of AMF instead of two, but they'd probably want a few scrolls of True Strike in case they ran out (they're only 25GP each though). Overall this way would save about 3000GP if I've done my sums right.

The big problem with this whole idea though is that there's a 10% chance that the Wizard will fail to cast the scroll of Forcecage. As Bronk said, you'd want to have an escape planned...

[Durinnator]

A more efficient way would be:

The Cleric casts extended Divine Power, Divine Favor and Cat's Grace on themself, and the Wizard casts Greater Heroism and extended Haste on them and GMW on their bow. Assuming the Cleric has Dex 10 to start with, they now have a ranged attack of +23/23/18/13, hitting on a 16/16/20/20 (AC 39 including +4 for cover) for an average of 0.6 hits per round. If the Cleric has at least Str 12 to begin with they can use a composite longbow with a +4 Str bonus, for an average of 8.5 damage per hit, meaning an average of 5.1 damage per round.

The Wizard casts Cat's Grace, Bull's Strength, and Heroism on themself and GMW on their bow, and are also affected by the extended Haste. Assuming they start with Str 10 and Dex 12, they now have an attack bonus of +15. On alternate rounds they cast True Strike to make their next attack at +33 and fire two arrows from a composite longbow with a +2 Str bonus at +33/13, needing a 6 and a 20 to hit, for an average of 0.4 hits per round at 6.5 average damage, or 2.6 damage per round (as they're only firing on alternate rounds).

It'd take an average of 38 rounds to kill the Balor at that rate; actually it'd be slightly less as on average you'd expect them to get one critical hit each, so about 34-35 rounds. You'd have to recast the extended Haste, Divine Power and Divine Favor, which adds 2 rounds back on, so about 36-37 rounds in total.

The Wizard only needs to scribe one scroll of AMF instead of two, but they'd probably want a few scrolls of True Strike in case they ran out (they're only 25GP each though). Overall this way would save about 3000GP if I've done my sums right.

The big problem with this whole idea though is that there's a 10% chance that the Wizard will fail to cast the scroll of Forcecage. As Bronk said, you'd want to have an escape planned...

Very nice, i like your improved strategy a lot! I'm not sure GMW bonuses apply, casted on the bow, the bow bestows the magical properties on the ammo, when the arrows enter the Anti Magic Field shouldn't that enhancement bonus go away?

I can't find a reliable escape method, if the balor wasn't set on hunting the Wizard and the Cleric it WOULD BE then. Maybe the Wizard could teleport both of them away but the balor would chase them and it would prepare countermeasures. It would be a one-shot opportunity. Maybe, if the trap fails, one of them(or an improved familiar) could place a Portable Hole into a Bag of Holding, dragging the balor to the astral plane, sacrificing on PC(or the improved familiar). But i guess the balor would somehow find its way into the material plane again to hunt relentlessly the survivors.

I still think it is a solid chance of bringing the balor down, what do you think?

[Marthor]

According to the Monster Manual I errata, both DR are Su, so this strategy is even more effective.

[Vizzerdrix]

Why not dump a bit of blacksand on the critter? Won't have to deal with rolling 20s then.

[SLOTHRPG95]

What's to stop the balor from simply killing the familiar, then teleporting away? Note that it has at-will greater dispel magic, so a dimensional anchor isn't going to hold it for long.

Given that you're looking at a 10-ft. radius AMF and once the Balor realizes your strategy it can stand in a place within the 20-ft. cube cage forcing your familiar to get close enough to attack through the bars, yeah this is exactly what'd happen.

[Elkad]

Balor teleports in.
Balor opens with Quickened Telekinesis, which bounces off the AMF, alerting him to it's presence (we'll assume he didn't notice before that).

Balor teleports out (or just to long range), or readies an action to fry "whoever steps out of the AMF first".
Or just charges the Wizard.

When the Wizard tries to cast Forcecage, he dies to the readied Blasphemy.

[Durinnator]

Given that you're looking at a 10-ft. radius AMF and once the Balor realizes your strategy it can stand in a place within the 20-ft. cube cage forcing your familiar to get close enough to attack through the bars, yeah this is exactly what'd happen.

Hi! Thy for your contribution. As I read the spell the balor could not attack through the bars at all. It would be easier if the DM running the encounter allows a 10 ft. barred cube, if not there should be at least two Anti Magic Fields, one casted by the Cleric, as i propose earlier in the post. Or, as some else commeted, extra preparation, extra divination to know where the balor will attack and extra spell, prior to the encounter, to reduce the balor's space in the cage(using wall of force for example.

[InvisibleBison]

Hi! Thy for your contribution. As I read the spell the balor could not attack through the bars at all. It would be easier if the DM running the encounter allows a 10 ft. barred cube, if not there should be at least two Anti Magic Fields, one casted by the Cleric, as i propose earlier in the post. Or, as some else commeted, extra preparation, extra divination to know where the balor will attack and extra spell, prior to the encounter, to reduce the balor's space in the cage(using wall of force for example.

The problem is that an antimagic field centered on the outside of the cage can't effect the inside of the cage, because even the barred version of the cage blocks line of effect (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#lineofEffect). Thus, the antimagic field must be centered on a creature on the inside of the cage, who would be promptly killed by the balor.

[Durinnator]

Balor teleports in.
Balor opens with Quickened Telekinesis, which bounces off the AMF, alerting him to it's presence (we'll assume he didn't notice before that).

Balor teleports out (or just to long range), or readies an action to fry "whoever steps out of the AMF first".
Or just charges the Wizard.

When the Wizard tries to cast Forcecage, he dies to the readied Blasphemy.

One thing is for sure, if the balor for some reason were set on killing the Wizard and the Cleric, considering them as serious threats, it would succed without a dout. For the scenario to be feasible i assume the balor does not deem itself seriously threatened, so it doesn't waste its "usable one per day" abilities or quickened telekinesis and instead uses Blasphemy (at will), a close range spell. All this, as the Monster Manual suggest on the balor entry, tactics round by round.

Even more, a sensible DM may run the encounter playing a confident balor, showing up and waste a round intimidating/taunting the Wizard and the Cleric. Much confidence as the Wizard and the Cleric against a CR 2 encounter.

What are your thoughts?

[Torpin]

pretty sure anti magic field suppresses the force cage because its not an explicit exception

[Durinnator]

The problem is that an antimagic field centered on the outside of the cage can't effect the inside of the cage, because even the barred version of the cage blocks . Thus, the antimagic field must be centered on a creature on the inside of the cage, who would be promptly killed by the balor.

Nice, i didn't took into account that! Being Antimagic Field an emmanation it is limited by line of effect. Still, i would consider the balor inside the cage on line of effect, you can see it and reach it from outside the cage. Besides, the spell states the following:

"Barred Cage
This version of the spell produces a 20-foot cube made of bands of force (similar to a wall of force spell) for bars. The bands are a half-inch wide, with half-inch gaps between them. Any creature capable of passing through such a small space can escape; others are confined. You can’t attack a creature in a barred cage with a weapon unless the weapon can fit between the gaps. Even against such weapons (including arrows and similar ranged attacks), a creature in the barred cage has cover. All spells and breath weapons can pass through the gaps in the bars."

Emphasis mine.

[Torpin]

also if they were protected by an antimagic field after the spell fails the balor would quickened teleport away then come back with a second balor or a marilith, then the marilith would choke the the wizard into unconsciounsess and coup de grace it on the next round

[Durinnator]

pretty sure anti magic field suppresses the force cage because its not an explicit exception

Hello! As i understand the description of Antimagic Field it is not limited to those explicit spells.

From the entry on the SRD:

"Certain spells, such as wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall, remain unaffected by antimagic field (see the individual spell descriptions). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this."

Then, in the Forcecage description, it's suggested that it function as Wall of Force.

"Like a wall of force spell, a forcecage resists dispel magic, but it is vulnerable to a disintegrate spell, and it can be destroyed by a sphere of annihilation or a rod of cancellation."

I guess you could argue that Antimagic Field cancels Forcecage but, obviously, based in what i just quoted, i would not.

[Durinnator]

also if they were protected by an antimagic field after the spell fails the balor would quickened teleport away then come back with a second balor or a marilith, then the marilith would choke the the wizard into unconsciounsess and coup de grace it on the next round

Maybe i was unclear before, the balor would not be able to retreat inmediately, be it the Wizard and the Cleric get a surprise round, the Wizard and the Cleric win initiative or the balor "wastes" its first round with Blasphemy. And, as far as i can read, the balor only has quickend telekinesis.

[Torpin]

Hello! As i understand the description of Antimagic Field it is not limited to those explicit spells.

From the entry on the SRD:

"Certain spells, such as wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall, remain unaffected by antimagic field (see the individual spell descriptions). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this."

Then, in the Forcecage description, it's suggested that it function as Wall of Force.

"Like a wall of force spell, a forcecage resists dispel magic, but it is vulnerable to a disintegrate spell, and it can be destroyed by a sphere of annihilation or a rod of cancellation."

I guess you could argue that Antimagic Field cancels Forcecage but, obviously, based in what i just quoted, i would not.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?103407-Forcecage-and-AMF/page3

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Friendly reminder that a Balor will certainly have gear and outsider servants, or at least cultists who summoned it.
I strongly suggest to figure out a way to deal with those. Bring more PCs ?

Still, I expect the Balor will stay at very long range or go into melee. Remember that a Balor has high mental scores, and fights smart. It will know that lost spellcasters are weak at long range or in melee, while it is strongest at those ranges. Therefore it will probably not stay nice and in forcecage range...
It also has reach, meaning that "I teleport next to the wizard" is an excellent opener to a fight once its long-range Firestorms have failed.

[Eldariel]

Still, I expect the Balor will stay at very long range or go into melee. Remember that a Balor has high mental scores, and fights smart. It will know that lost spellcasters are weak at long range or in melee, while it is strongest at those ranges. Therefore it will probably not stay nice and in forcecage range...
It also has reach, meaning that "I teleport next to the wizard" is an excellent opener to a fight once its long-range Firestorms have failed.

I think this is putting too much info into the Balor's head. The Balor doesn't know the level of the enemies it's fighting nor all the tricks they have access to (far as I understand) so it also has to prepare accordingly for e.g. Shapechange, Gate, PAO, Magic Jar, Telekinesis, etc. as well. It can't just tunnel vision on Forcecage specifically. I also don't think it, as a smart enemy, would want to enter melee with casters because it has no way to stop them from casting and it just opens itself up to being comboed, Anticipate Teleported or whatever. Not that it even could TP into an AMF (probably). Again, this is information wars; neither the Balor nor the casters will know precisely what tools the opponent has brought to bear; thus a framing problem.

[noob]

I think this is putting too much info into the Balor's head. The Balor doesn't know the level of the enemies it's fighting nor all the tricks they have access to (far as I understand) so it also has to prepare accordingly for e.g. Shapechange, Gate, PAO, Magic Jar, Telekinesis, etc. as well. It can't just tunnel vision on Forcecage specifically. I also don't think it, as a smart enemy, would want to enter melee with casters because it has no way to stop them from casting and it just opens itself up to being comboed, Anticipate Teleported or whatever. Not that it even could TP into an AMF (probably). Again, this is information wars; neither the Balor nor the casters will know precisely what tools the opponent has brought to bear; thus a framing problem.

magic jar had which range?
and if the balor is truly readying for most tricks it would simply use a scroll of disjunction and/or a scroll of gate for getting a solar each time it have to actually fight because when it have to fight it means that whathever it is fighting is a huge threat that could not be managed by minions(so not only it is rare and so the balor can afford it but often this kind of threat drops enough loot(even after disjunction) to make it worth it).

[Eldariel]

magic jar had which range?
and if the balor is truly readying for most tricks it would simply use a scroll of disjunction and/or a scroll of gate for getting a solar each time it have to actually fight because when it have to fight it means that whathever it is fighting is a huge threat that could not be managed by minions(so not only it is rare and so the balor can afford it but often this kind of threat drops enough loot(even after disjunction) to make it worth it).

Magic Jar has medium range but the thing to account while dealing with it is that it's the soulgem's location from which the range is defined and thus anyone jumping in has to be wary of not only the spellcaster present but also any potentially hidden soul gems and such (of course, the spellcaster itself could be a Project Image or whatever).

Either way, it's hard for the Balor to determine, when its opponents are actually a credible threat to be taken seriously without previous contact, contact through minions or some other source of information. It takes an action to size up your opposition and even then you only get somewhat accurate information and it's susceptible to Bluff. Said action can prove fatal. It's easier for the spellcasters since Balors start up at "extremely powerful" and there's far less variance among them than among mortals; the Balor would look extremely silly (not to mention, waste a lot of resources) Gating in a Solar against a random 1st level Wizard & Cleric.


Which is why I keep bringing up the framing of the encounter: it is a crucial part of how each party would actually behave and what information they would have and indeed, a key part of whether the plan has any chance of success or not. Information wars are the most important thing when it comes to stronger creatures, not combat prowess.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Sorry, I was so used to every Balor having Mage Slayer that I forgot that it wasn't on their basic stat block ;)
If a Balor does have Mage Slayer, then going into melee is always the optimal choice.
A Balor's base feat selection is terrible though, as is their lack of gear.

Note that the Balor could kill all your fighters simply by throwing the arrows back at them as improvised weapons. His base attack bonus and strength bonus are high enough for this to work despite the penalties. He could also fling pebbles hard enough to instantly kill a low-level archer. Or even worse: he could kill the familiar by throwing stuff at it, thereby disabling the antimagic field and letting him kill everyone easily.

The archers could stay very far back (out of throwing range), but in that case the Balor could simply ignore them: range penalties are a huge problem for level 1 archers attacking a high-AC target like a Balor.

And what do your mages do if the Balor simply kills all the archers before approaching them? He could simply cast his Firestorm and have the archers be in its AoE too (Firestorm is massive), or he could Teleport into the archers and start attacking them in melee (or use Blasphemy) if they're far enough from the mages.


Your plan is incredibly risky. It could work, but... I don't think it will, unless your GM is incredibly kind.

[Eldariel]

Sorry, I was so used to every Balor having Mage Slayer that I forgot that it wasn't on their basic stat block ;)
If a Balor does have Mage Slayer, then going into melee is always the optimal choice.

That really depends; Mage Slayer doesn't work against a score of things (swift actions can still be used at no risk for instance), normal Wizards (i.e. ones not in the OP's exercise) would probably have some sort of anti-melee Contingency in effect and so on. It's generally a really bad idea to pass the turn without an offensive action against someone capable of potentially one-rounding you. If I were running a Balor, I'd generally prefer max range Telekinesis/Dominate/GDM bombardment. Blasphemy if there's an opening and the enemy is certain to be affected by it.


Note that the Balor could kill all your fighters simply by throwing the arrows back at them as improvised weapons. His base attack bonus and strength bonus are high enough for this to work despite the penalties. He could also fling pebbles hard enough to instantly kill a low-level archer. Or even worse: he could kill the familiar by throwing stuff at it, thereby disabling the antimagic field and letting him kill everyone easily.

Non-magical arrows are always destroyed on impact but yeah, there might be something to throw.


The archers could stay very far back (out of throwing range), but in that case the Balor could simply ignore them: range penalties are a huge problem for level 1 archers attacking a high-AC target like a Balor.

They're 20-fishing already, it literally would change nothing. Improvised thrown weapons have a range increment of 10' so they don't even need to take an increment's worth of penalty to stand outside even the potential Farshot range though.

[InvisibleBison]

Or even worse: he could kill the familiar by throwing stuff at it, thereby disabling the antimagic field and letting him kill everyone easily.

Would killing the familiar actually end the antimagic field? It seems plausible that it would (I certainly assumed so in my earlier posts), but the rules for spell durations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#duration) don't say actually anything to suggest that it would.

[Mrark]

How can you cast AMF on your familiar?

[noob]

Magic Jar has medium range but the thing to account while dealing with it is that it's the soulgem's location from which the range is defined and thus anyone jumping in has to be wary of not only the spellcaster present but also any potentially hidden soul gems and such (of course, the spellcaster itself could be a Project Image or whatever).

Either way, it's hard for the Balor to determine, when its opponents are actually a credible threat to be taken seriously without previous contact, contact through minions or some other source of information. It takes an action to size up your opposition and even then you only get somewhat accurate information and it's susceptible to Bluff. Said action can prove fatal. It's easier for the spellcasters since Balors start up at "extremely powerful" and there's far less variance among them than among mortals; the Balor would look extremely silly (not to mention, waste a lot of resources) Gating in a Solar against a random 1st level Wizard & Cleric.


Which is why I keep bringing up the framing of the encounter: it is a crucial part of how each party would actually behave and what information they would have and indeed, a key part of whether the plan has any chance of success or not. Information wars are the most important thing when it comes to stronger creatures, not combat prowess.
the simplest formulae for finding if the adventurers are a consequent threat is "send 8 cr 11+ demons to fight the adventurers and if they survive then if the balor consider them to be his problem he spends a scroll of gate and/or disjunction"
If they could beat 8 cr 11 demons at once it means that they are quite intelligent or resourceful or powerful and any of those makes regular engagement risky.


Would killing the familiar actually end the antimagic field? It seems plausible that it would (I certainly assumed so in my earlier posts), but the rules for spell durations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#duration) don't say actually anything to suggest that it would.

Step 1: kill the familiar.
Step 2: put the familiar in a lead box or anything that cuts line of effect.
Step 3: there is no antimagic zone impeding you.

[Calthropstu]

Umm.
So round 1 of "trapped" in forcecage: Balor squishes familiar.
Round 2: No longer trapped, balor teleports next to wizard.
Round 3: wizard squished.
Round 4: Cleric squished.
Round 5: Balor teleports to wizard's family.
Round 6: family squished.
Round 7: Balor teleports to cleric's church.
Round 13: church is demolished and all defenders squished.
Round 14-30: Balor goes on murder spree wiping out town.
Round 31: Balor flees as arch angel enters plane and begins pursuit.
Round 50: Balor banished back to the abyss. Cleric: dead. Wizard: dead. Probably their souls trapped on the abyss.

[noob]

Umm.
So round 1 of "trapped" in forcecage: Balor squishes familiar.
Round 2: No longer trapped, balor teleports next to wizard.
Round 3: wizard squished.
Round 4: Cleric squished.
Round 5: Balor teleports to wizard's family.
Round 6: family squished.
Round 7: Balor teleports to cleric's church.
Round 13: church is demolished and all defenders squished.
Round 14-30: Balor goes on murder spree wiping out town.
Round 31: Balor flees as arch angel enters plane and begins pursuit.
Round 50: Balor banished back to the abyss. Cleric: dead. Wizard: dead. Probably their souls trapped on the abyss.

the breakdown is sightly different: death does not stops the antimagic zone so it becomes something like
Balor squishes familiar.
Round 2: the balor throw something on the familiar to cover it to block the line of effect of the antimagic zone
Round 3: No longer trapped, balor teleports next to wizard.
Round 4: wizard squished.
Round 5: Cleric squished.
Round 6: Balor teleports to wizard's family.
Round 7: family squished.
Round 8: Balor teleports to cleric's church.
Round 13: church is demolished and all defenders squished.
Round 14-30: Balor goes on murder spree wiping out town.
Round 31: Balor flees as arch angel enters plane and begins pursuit.
Round 50: Balor banished back to the abyss. Cleric: dead. Wizard: dead. Probably their souls trapped on the abyss.

[Calthropstu]

the breakdown is sightly different: death does not stops the antimagic zone so it becomes something like
Balor squishes familiar.
Round 2: the balor throw something on the familiar to cover it to block the line of effect of the antimagic zone
Round 3: No longer trapped, balor teleports next to wizard.
Round 4: wizard squished.
Round 5: Cleric squished.
Round 6: Balor teleports to wizard's family.
Round 7: family squished.
Round 8: Balor teleports to cleric's church.
Round 13: church is demolished and all defenders squished.
Round 14-30: Balor goes on murder spree wiping out town.
Round 31: Balor flees as arch angel enters plane and begins pursuit.
Round 50: Balor banished back to the abyss. Cleric: dead. Wizard: dead. Probably their souls trapped on the abyss.

Eh, up for interpretation whether death ends it or not. Either way, even if the balor has nothing to put it in, he could just dig a hole and bury it.
What would be really awesome though is if he teleported the wizard into the forcecage and made an illusion to make the wizard look like the balor. Then just let the archers kill the wizard.

But yeah, this tactic wouldn't work.

[Eldariel]

the breakdown is sightly different: death does not stops the antimagic zone so it becomes something like
Balor squishes familiar.
Round 2: the balor throw something on the familiar to cover it to block the line of effect of the antimagic zone

This does require there to be something to throw though; he's in a Forcecage (which contains a floor) of half-inch wide gaps; I don't think even a Balor's finger fits through so he's stuck to whatever he's given and his own equipment. "Something" is not really an answer and if throwing takes a standard action, either of the casters can effortlessly remove said "something" before the Balor gets to act aside from its Quickened Telekinesis.


Eh, up for interpretation whether death ends it or not. Either way, even if the balor has nothing to put it in, he could just dig a hole and bury it.
What would be really awesome though is if he teleported the wizard into the forcecage and made an illusion to make the wizard look like the balor. Then just let the archers kill the wizard.

But yeah, this tactic wouldn't work.

In a Forcecage? How do you dig through bands of Force?

[noob]

This does require there to be something to throw though; he's in a Forcecage (which contains a floor) of half-inch wide gaps; I don't think even a Balor's finger fits through so he's stuck to whatever he's given and his own equipment. "Something" is not really an answer and if throwing takes a standard action, either of the casters can effortlessly remove said "something" before the Balor gets to act aside from its Quickened Telekinesis.



In a Forcecage? How do you dig through bands of Force?

Nothing mentions forcecage being immune to antimagic: the only thing it share with a force wall is resistance to dispel magic so the familiar have to be in the cage or else a section of the cage will be cancelled by antimagic or all cage will be cancelled if the antimagic zone overlaps with the cage(ex: the familiar is outside and close enough to the cage to include its contents).
And the balor could get on the towel (galactic guide: always have a towel) to prevent easy removal of the towel.(then teleport the next turn and kill stuff)

[Eldariel]

Nothing mentions forcecage being immune to antimagic: the only thing it share with a force wall is resistance to dispel magic so the familiar have to be in the cage or else a section of the cage will be cancelled by antimagic or all cage will be cancelled if the antimagic zone overlaps with the cage(ex: the familiar is outside and close enough to the cage to include its contents).
And the balor could get on the towel (galactic guide: always have a towel) to prevent easy removal of the towel.(then teleport the next turn and kill stuff)

The whole thread is based on the premise that Forcecage is immune to AMF. It's obvious to neither direction but the ruling that is indeed is is quite reasonable. So, work with that.

[DEMON]

he's stuck to whatever he's given and his own equipment. "Something" is not really an answer and if throwing takes a standard action, either of the casters can effortlessly remove said "something" before the Balor gets to act aside from its Quickened Telekinesis

I don't suppose his briefs or (part of) his wings would do the trick, would they?

[ericgrau]

Hi! This is my first post and english isn't my native language so excuse me in advance. :smallsmile:. I am trying to come up with a scenario where a mid lv party defeats a Balor, without being too far fetched. Here is what i got:

-Wizard with flying, high mobility familiar, learns Anti Magic Field.
-Wizard & Cleric find out/divine they are fighting/meeting a Balor soon.
-Wizard buys a scroll of Forcecage. He also inscribes several scrolls of Anti Magic Field.
-Cleric uses divination spell to know when the encounter is gonna happen.
-Wizard and Cleric hire henchmen, maybe ten or more 1st lv Warior armed with comp. longbows. Also they buy a ****load of arrows.
-Prior to combat Wizard casts Anti Magic Field on Familiar.
-Balor shows up, possibly by teleport, Balor wins initiative and uses Firestorm, Implosion or Blasphemy. Wizard and Cleric are, hopefully, protected by Anti Magic Field. (If Balor goes melee it disrupts the strategy).
-Familiar moves over the Balor while Wizard traps it with Barred Forcecage. If DM allows 10 ft Cube Barred Forcecage then the Balor is fully within the Anti Magic Field: cannot use any SLA or attack through the cage. If only 20 ft. version is allowed the Cleric must have Magic or Protection domains, cast Anti Magic Field on herself, then coordinate position with Wizard's familiar, maybe too hard to accomplish.
-Balor is trapped, can be attacked through the bars, althougt with cover. Forcecage lasts more than a day, Anti Magic Field less than two hours, Anti Magic Field can be refreshed.
-Balor shot-down by the henchmen far away. Double 20s only (0.25 chance per shot?), also gotta pierce the DR, could take a while and a LOT of arrows. Some buffing may help.
-Balor dies and explodes killing, at least, Wizard's Familiar.

What do you think? Thanks.


Balor uses whip to pull cleric or wizard against bars of cage, swords to death. His 2nd Ex ability lets him do this, unlike a normal whip. Whip drag to a corner of the cage. There's now a square in the center that the other creature can't cover with AMF. Assuming 20' barred cage, which is how the spell is written. I say "wizard", not "familiar", because AMF does not have a target of "You" and cannot be cast on a familiar.
Which means how does the wizard even cast the forcecage? If he casts AMF second, he leaves himself vulnerable.
What buffs are you using to pierce DR 15/cold iron and good? That's a lot of damage to add to a d8. At least 8.
The DM can also rule that even a nat 20 doesn't hit on extreme cases. And being 15 below AC is more extreme than the book example I believe. GMW doesn't work because the bow actually makes the arrows into +2 arrows. Mass bull's strength +2 damage. Hireling might have 13 str so +1. Maybe orc for another +2, +1 if you can only find half-orcs. That's 5. Hmm.
Also what divination spell are you casting and which option to find out a Balor will attack, specifically? What could prompt the party to cast it this way in the first place (i.e., how would it work against any foe without foreknowledge of what it is)? As for when the attack happens, that's an 81% chance of success and you only get 1 shot. Since the balor is teleporting straight to you, he must have a way to know where you are. So if you're not careful your battle prep may make him change his mind on when he attacks. If you found a way to discover that he will attack and that uses only a single divination spell, your total odds of success are about 65%. If multiple castings for different questions (e.g., will we be attacked by a powerful foe within the next week + what is it?) then your odds drop further.


Did I miss anything else?

Seems like a lot of holes that aren't explained in detail.

[Eldariel]

I don't suppose his briefs or (part of) his wings would do the trick, would they?

Briefs might work but it seems like a simple enough task for the Wizard (or anyone) to walk over and remove them before the Balor can take another action as throwing them is no doubt a standard action (and throwing them through a half-inch hole might not be possible). Wings...parts of the creature do not block line of effect.


Balor uses whip to pull cleric or wizard against bars of cage, swords to death. His 2nd Ex ability lets him do this, unlike a normal whip. Whip drag to a corner of the cage. There's now a square in the center that the other creature can't cover with AMF. Assuming 20' barred cage, which is how the spell is written. I say "wizard", not "familiar", because AMF does not have a target of "You" and cannot be cast on a familiar.

Forcecage bars specifically make such attacks impossible.


What buffs are you using to pierce DR 15/cold iron and good? That's a lot of damage to add to a d8. At least 8. The DM can also rule that even a nat 20 doesn't hit on extreme cases. And being 15 below AC is more extreme than the book example I believe. GMW doesn't work because the bow actually makes the arrows into +2 arrows. Mass bull's strength +2 damage. Hireling might have 13 str so +1. Maybe orc for another +2, +1 if you can only find half-orcs. That's 5. Hmm.

The DR is Su and doesn't apply inside AMF.

[ericgrau]

Forcecage bars specifically make such attacks impossible.

It says unless the weapon can fit through 1/2" wide gaps.


The DR is Su and doesn't apply inside AMF.
Where does it say DR is Su? I couldn't find that.

[Eldariel]

It says unless the weapon can fit through 1/2" wide gaps.

Aye. I'm not sure about a Large Whip.


Where does it say DR is Su? I couldn't find that.

SRD is missing that but Rules Compendium defines that DR/Alignment, Magic, Epic & Cold Iron/Silver are Su and Bludgeoning/Piercing/Slashing, Adamantine & - are Ex. I think some MM update might have osmething to say about it.

[Biggus]

Very nice, i like your improved strategy a lot! I'm not sure GMW bonuses apply, casted on the bow, the bow bestows the magical properties on the ammo, when the arrows enter the Anti Magic Field shouldn't that enhancement bonus go away?


To clarify, I added the enhancement bonus from GMW on to their attack bonus, but not their damage bonus. I assumed that a magic bow makes you aim better, not that it makes the arrows swerve in the air to hit their target. As far as I know this isn't specified anywhere in the rules, so it's debatable, but it seems to me that a magic bow would bestow its magic at the point of use, not the point of impact. The damage bonus however would presumably take effect on impact, so I didn't include that: the increases to base damage I included were from the composite longbows' strength bonus, which is nonmagical.

Even if you assume the attack bonus doesn't apply, it only increases the time to kill it by about 13-14 rounds, and the cost by about 350GP (as the wizard would want another 14 scrolls of True Strike).