Charm person while disguised?

[Piggy Knowles]

I'm currently DMing a ship-based campaign for a group mostly pretty new to 3.5. They wanted a healthy dose of social interaction and intrigue mixed in, which I've been doing my best to oblige.

For a brief background, the party has taken passage on a ship that, due to a number of odd circumstances, is currently stuck on an alien sea that they haven't yet learned how to navigate. The ship's captain has been poisoned. The first mate is relatively new to the crew and is just barely holding things together in the captain's absence. While no one disliked her before, the stress of the trip combined with the fact that she is newer to the crew than many others and now is suddenly acting as the de facto captain is not making her any friends. There hasn't been any actual mutiny, at least not while it looks like the captain might still recover, but a lot of the crew are grumbling or resentful, and some challenge her decisions outright.

Unbeknownst to the party (who believe themselves to be the only people on the ship with any real magical ability), one person on the ship is a spy working on behalf of a third party that has yet to be introduced but that will be a major player in the near future. She's a bard with a hefty focus on social and stealth skills, with magic to back it up. I plan to have her alter self to imitate the first mate, charm a couple of crew members, and use her considerable Charisma and social skills to convince the charmed crew members to sabotage part of the ship. The party will likely catch the crew members, who will believe that it was the first mate who convinced them, in the act.

But that leads me to an interesting dynamic. By my reading of charm person, my best guess is that the charmed person's allegiance should be to the caster regardless of how she appears. But they believe that the caster in this case is the first mate. So...

SCENARIO 1:
What happens if, while still under the effects of charm, the bard appears before them again but in a different guise? Do they just naturally feel friendly and trusting of her, whatever guise she is in?

And if the above is true, do the charmed crew members' feelings toward the first mate change? In other words: the false first mate encounters them and they find themselves thinking of her as their trusted friend and ally despite their initial feelings toward the first mate. Presumably they continue thinking of her as such even when she is out of sight. Now they encounter the bard in another guise, and their magical allegiance presumably carries over to the bard under her new guise. What do they think of the first mate at that point?

SCENARIO 2:
What happens if, while still under the effects of charm, the actual first mate appears before them?

Presumably the magical allegiance they feel toward the caster doesn't extend to the actual first mate. But at the same time, the charmed crewfolk still have their mental picture of the first mate as a trusted friend and ally. How does that work? If they were part of the group of crewfolk that actively distrusted the first mate prior to being charmed, does that active distrust creep back to the forefront when they see the actual first mate?

SCENARIO 3:
What level of interaction is necessary for those charmed feelings to kick in? If the charmed crewfolk hear the actual first mate from far away bu don't see her, do they feel any special connection or trust? What if they see the bard in another guise but don't actually interact with her - do they think "oh, there's a good friend of mine over there" without knowing why?

SCENARIO 4:
If the party successfully catch the crewfolk in the act and pin them down, presumably they'll interrogate them. The crew members will likely be reticent to give up their good friend the first mate. But does that change if, during the interrogation, they see the actual first mate? Or the bard in another guise? Would they then become more likely to reveal who asked them to sabotage the ship?


Note that I'm not necessarily looking for RAW answers here. I'm looking for interesting implications, ways to make this encounter more compelling and also internally consistent. How I decide to handle this may also be relevant down the road as well, since one member of the party is a beguiler and could conceivably end up using very similar tactics.

[Psyren]

The RAW answer is fairly simple - spells do what they say they do. If you Charmed someone and then left the room to be replaced by your identical twin wearing the same clothes, they would not get to assume the benefits of the spell you cast, because nothing in the spell says it cares about appearances. For that same reason, if you charmed someone and then changed your appearance, the spell is still active with respect to both the target and you.

Now with that said, several of your scenarios could end up forcing the Charisma check or not working at all. A sailor sabotaging the boat he is currently inhabiting would definitely count as "harmful or suicidal" for example. Similarly, hearing the real first mate while staring at the fake one (or vice-versa) might force the Charisma check, since an uncharmed sailor would definitely be confused or even wary then, and not simply go along with orders until he had sorted that out.

[Piggy Knowles]

I should clarify that the sabotage in question isn't of the life-threatening variety. Basically there is a macguffin on the boat that allows the boat travel to this alien, extraplanar sea. Various factions want to get their hands on said macguffin for a variety of reasons. The party is currently aware of two such factions, the wealthy family who technically owns the macguffin but who would use it for profit and influence, and a group originating from this alien world that consider it an item of near-religious significance. There is a third faction that they don't know is involved: the Fisher-King, the centuries-old monarch of the kingdom they are currently leaving who is said to be responsible for magically keeping the waters in his kingdom calm and safe for fishing boats and travelers. The bard in question is posing as an aide for the wealthy family, but is actually an agent of the Fisher-King who is attempting to maneuver things so that the boat is forced to return back to the Fisher-King's domain.

The party has just learned the command word that will get the macguffin to return the ship back to the world they know, but they also have gotten a hint of how to navigate the otherworldly waters. The bard doesn't want them to go exploring this strange world, but wants to force them to return back to the port they left from, keeping said macguffin within the Fisher-King's domain. The sabotage in this case would be attempting to destroy navigation equipment (in particular an astrolabe and several star charts) that the party would need to start mapping out this strange place and determining how it interacts with the "real" world. Her hope is that the party will then use the macguffin to return and go back to port to get the equipment they need. The bard is going to charm a couple of crew members while disguised as the first mate, and convince them (via the appropriate Charisma checks) that with the captain sick they can't afford to go gallivanting about in some strange world, and that this is their best way of getting things back to status quo.



The RAW answer is fairly simple - spells do what they say they do. If you Charmed someone and then left the room to be replaced by your identical twin wearing the same clothes, they would not get to assume the benefits of the spell you cast, because nothing in the spell says it cares about appearances. For that same reason, if you charmed someone and then changed your appearance, the spell is still active with respect to both the target and you.

I came to this same conclusion, but thinking about what that actually means in practice led me to the other scenarios. Any of them are possible, so I want to think about how to play it out. If the party brings the actual first mate along to interrogate them (assuming the catch them at all), presumably the crewfolk don't feel any magical attachment to her, but they are still charmed and still believe that they did this for the first mate. How would that actually play out in terms of the interrogation? Or what if the party brings the bard along unknowingly? Their magical attachment is to the bard, but do they still remember the first mate as their close friend and trusted ally? Again, I'm not really looking for RAW answers as much as interesting ways this could play out. The longer-term interaction of a charm spell with a disguise like this is something I haven't really thought much about in the past, and I feel like it has some interesting implications.



Similarly, hearing the real first mate while staring at the fake one (or vice-versa) might force the Charisma check, since an uncharmed sailor would definitely be confused or even wary then, and not simply go along with orders until he had sorted that out.

Hm, this is interesting. I always thought of the Charisma check as directly influencing the charmed party, and not as something that could happen in the caster’s absence (e.g. when the charmed crew folk run into the real first mate). Would she roll a new check despite not being present, or would it just give the sailors another shot at beating her previous Charisma check to convince them?

[Psyren]

I should clarify that the sabotage in question isn't of the life-threatening variety. Basically there is a macguffin on the boat that allows the boat travel to this alien, extraplanar sea. Various factions want to get their hands on said macguffin for a variety of reasons. The party is currently aware of two such factions, the wealthy family who technically owns the macguffin but who would use it for profit and influence, and a group originating from this alien world that consider it an item of near-religious significance. There is a third faction that they don't know is involved: the Fisher-King, the centuries-old monarch of the kingdom they are currently leaving who is said to be responsible for magically keeping the waters in his kingdom calm and safe for fishing boats and travelers. The bard in question is posing as an aide for the wealthy family, but is actually an agent of the Fisher-King who is attempting to maneuver things so that the boat is forced to return back to the Fisher-King's domain.

The party has just learned the command word that will get the macguffin to return the ship back to the world they know, but they also have gotten a hint of how to navigate the otherworldly waters. The bard doesn't want them to go exploring this strange world, but wants to force them to return back to the port they left from, keeping said macguffin within the Fisher-King's domain. The sabotage in this case would be attempting to destroy navigation equipment (in particular an astrolabe and several star charts) that the party would need to start mapping out this strange place and determining how it interacts with the "real" world. Her hope is that the party will then use the macguffin to return and go back to port to get the equipment they need. The bard is going to charm a couple of crew members while disguised as the first mate, and convince them (via the appropriate Charisma checks) that with the captain sick they can't afford to go gallivanting about in some strange world, and that this is their best way of getting things back to status quo.

Well, keep in mind that the standard is merely "harmful" rather than "life-threatening" - but I can certainly see the argument that making sure all the ship can do is get them home (safely) isn't all that bad.

As far as "the appropriate Charisma checks", also keep in mind that Diplomacy doesn't work on PCs - so your bard would have to lie, and the PCs therefore have a chance to detect the ruse (via Sense Motive, magic, etc.)



I came to this same conclusion, but thinking about what that actually means in practice led me to the other scenarios. Any of them are possible, so I want to think about how to play it out. If the party brings the actual first mate along to interrogate them (assuming the catch them at all), presumably the crewfolk don't feel any magical attachment to her, but they are still charmed and still believe that they did this for the first mate. How would that actually play out in terms of the interrogation?

They perceived the caster's words and actions in the most favorable way. "So and so said it was really important that I do this, and they'd never lie to me/they must have known what they were talking about." Note that the chance to detect that they are under a charm effect comes into play here too, meaning that there should be something off about their behavior or reasoning (though not as far off as if they were dominated.)



Or what if the party brings the bard along unknowingly? Their magical attachment is to the bard, but do they still remember the first mate as their close friend and trusted ally? Again, I'm not really looking for RAW answers as much as interesting ways this could play out. The longer-term interaction of a charm spell with a disguise like this is something I haven't really thought much about in the past, and I feel like it has some interesting implications.

Yeah they'd feel friendly toward the "new" person too. They'd remember what they did for the "old" person too and will likely justify it, and that justification may not be wholly rational (which is basically a roleplay of the detection DC.)



Hm, this is interesting. I always thought of the Charisma check as directly influencing the charmed party, and not as something that could happen in the caster’s absence (e.g. when the charmed crew folk run into the real first mate). Would she roll a new check despite not being present, or would it just give the sailors another shot at beating her previous Charisma check to convince them?

This is down to how you define "being present." For me, seeing person X that I know very well right in front of me but also hearing their voice in another room would at the very least be cause for me to question what I'm seeing and hearing. I wouldn't proceed as if everything were normal, so trying to force me to do so would likely trigger the check. (Again, this is assuming I know the person well enough to be familiar with both their face and voice.)