Polymorph with your mind

[Dalebert]

What would be the harm in letting the target keep its mental stats when polymorphed? (Int, Wis, Cha) No class features or anything else, mind you. That needs to be explicitly stated. But your basic memories and knowledge including languages.

#1 It just makes the spell a little more useful for utility, like scouting, travel, or spying, which seems completely reasonable for a 4th level spell. Right now it's broken as a T-Rex combat spell but pigeon-holed to that. Or it's a single Target crowd control.

#2 It's just thematic with most fiction and simply more fun.

#3 Still clearly inferior to druid wild shape as it should be which keeps class features and doesn't require concentration so can keep concentration on another spell.

[Man_Over_Game]

What would be the harm in letting the target keep its mental stats when polymorphed? (Int, Wis, Cha) No class features or anything else, mind you. That needs to be explicitly stated. But your basic memories and knowledge including languages.

#1 It just makes the spell a little more useful for utility, like scouting, travel, or spying, which seems completely reasonable for a 4th level spell. Right now it's broken as a T-Rex combat spell but pigeon-holed to that. Or it's a single Target crowd control.

#2 It's just thematic with most fiction and simply more fun.

#3 Still clearly inferior to druid wild shape as it should be which keeps class features and doesn't require concentration so can keep concentration on another spell.

Polymorphing skill-monkeys would be more effective.

Certain racial features might still work (like the Gnome's ability to repel mental-based magic saving throws).

That's about all I can think of.

[nickl_2000]

Polmorph is a silly powerful spell at many different places. It gets more powerful as the PC get higher levels without a having to cast it at a higher level. Allowing a PC to be intelligent is just to much for the level spell that you are casting.

Now, I could see it homebrewed that you could upcast the spell to a higher spell slot to allow that, but not a normal casting.


As a side note, if you have a Staff of the Woodlands you can use it to awaken an ally that you polymorphed. I've actually made a few of my fellow PCs more intelligent as a T-Rex than they were in their normal form :smallcool:

[Dr. Cliché]

I would be in favour of this just as a means of clearing up the current nonsense whereby the target has its mental stats replaced but somehow keeps its personality and alignment. What does that even mean? :smallconfused:

[PhantomSoul]

I could see a middle ground where you retain your memories and personality, but not your mental stats (in particular affecting saving throws) and your features/abilities. That latter benefits are really a Druid Wild Shape feature (and are both significant boosts that could undermine reasons some beasts are useful [e.g. having better resistance to INT-targetting effects, though I haven't checked the beasts to see what -- if any -- this effect would be]), but keeping the former could spare needing to tell the resulting beast what to do (which is actually a fairly nice detail for flavour; you're now that beast and have to interact with the creature like it's that beast)

[Dalebert]

Polymorphing skill-monkeys would be more effective.

Certain racial features might still work (like the Gnome's ability to repel mental-based magic saving throws).


That's why I stated explicitly that it would only be your mental stats. Skills wouldn't apply. Gnome Resistance wouldn't. You're not a gnome anymore.

[Dr. Cliché]

I could see a middle ground where you retain your memories and personality, but not your mental stats (in particular affecting saving throws) and your features/abilities.

Isn't that basically what we've got now, though?

It leads to this weird disconnect with regard to what mental stats are supposed to represent.

Surely having your intellect dropped to the level of subhuman would itself alter someone's personality? :smallconfused:

[Man_Over_Game]

That's why I stated explicitly that it would only be your mental stats. Skills wouldn't apply. Gnome Resistance wouldn't. You're not a gnome anymore.

But that would mean that your mind is intact, but your mind's ability to resist spells that are resisted by your mind is not?

[PhantomSoul]

Isn't that basically what we've got now, though?

It leads to this weird disconnect with regard to what mental stats are supposed to represent.

Surely having your intellect dropped to the level of subhuman would itself alter someone's personality? :smallconfused:

The spell says "It retains its alignment and personality" so it's close, but saying "memories" does actually add something meaningful (e.g. not having to instruct the beast what the beast was about to do), but like I mentioned towards the end of the post there's a flavour difference that not having memories fosters (you became a beast instead of you just look like a beast), and that's a flavour I've come to appreciate (particularly since it highlights the difference between something like Wild Shape or Shapechange and something like Polymorph). Memories+languages (but can't speak) works, but it gradually becomes "your body is now beast-shaped" instead of "you are now a beast" as you make changes.

As for affecting personality, I guess it depends on what you imagine to be part of their personality -- if it's "arrogant" or "trusting" or "happy-go-lucky", probably not, but if it's "arrogant because they think they're smarter than everyone else", "trusting because they grew up relying on strangers' generosity" or "happy-go-lucky because they've found things always work out for the best", then keeping memories helps you retain that (and it also explicitly suggests you would know you're not actually a beast and know why), but having their intelligence drop would just be "you think you're smarter and are usually right" to "you think you're smarter, but simply don't know enough to know better", or you figure out what it means to have an intelligence-based personality knowing your intelligence has been altered.

So the conclusion is: it depends on what you think those mental stats represent (and/or what you think they're "supposed to represent").

[Dalebert]

Allowing a PC to be intelligent is just to much for the level spell that you are casting.

This begs the question. What's your argument to support this? What could they do that's broken for a 4th level spell?


It leads to this weird disconnect with regard to what mental stats are supposed to represent.

Surely having your intellect dropped to the level of subhuman would itself alter someone's personality? :smallconfused:

Hallelujah! Think how many extensive threads there are arguing that you start attacking your friends because you're too dumb to know better despite the spell saying you retain you personality. It's incredibly perplexing.


But that would mean that your mind is intact, but your mind's ability to resist spells that are resisted by your mind is not?

Yes. Bingo. Resisted by your gnome brain's racial ability that is now an unusually intelligent but not magic resistant squirrel brain. what's complicated?