D&D Games: Enhanced Editions Master Playthrough?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I've decided to try and figure out and make plans for a master playthrough of Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition, Siege of Dragonspear, Baldur's Gate II: Enhanced Edition, Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition, and Neverwinter Nights: Enhanced Edition. Basically an attempt to set up a "master headcanon," if you will. And naturally such a grand project is overwhelming to think of, and I was wondering if I can get some help sorting this out.

As I've stated in threads (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?513786-Baldur-s-Gate-Ability-Scores) like these (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?386204-Baldur-s-Gate-The-Thread), I got into D&D primarily during the days of 3.0 and 3.5, only now sampling 2e IRL and kind of struggling to get it (the DM made everyone's character sheet and I heavily rely on his prompting in combat scenarios). So I'm looking for advice on how to build my characters for these games so I can not only survive the challenges, but also DO ALL THE QUESTS. I understand some quests are barred to you or play out differently due to things but alignment, and (at least the Baldur's Gate games) provide a massive number of companions, more than can fit in an individual party, many of whom interact with each other or are mutually exclusive, so I'm unsure how to unpack all that, doing everyone's sidequests and deciding which character for my PC may start a romantic relationship with. It's not like Neverwinter Nights 2's Storm of Zehir campaign where you can recruit the NPC companion, have them in your party for a minute, and then dismiss them so you can get their slide in the epilogue.

I also don't want to basically make the same character for each game, the same person wearing different masks. So I'm trying to figure out how to make characters who feel different enough that it feels more like Faerun is a big world with many different heroes rather than just one powerful character type who is optimized for any situation.

And where exactly do the Black Pits DLCs fit into the stories? Should I play those before or after the main stories?

Thank you all, in advance, for helping me figure out what the heck I'm doing so I can finally experience these classic games (with the exception of NN:EE, as I've played the Diamond Edition of that back in college)! :smallsmile:

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I'm really struggling to diversify my character builds, since I feel like I'm instinctively drawn to Paladin/Sorceror types (or Fighter/Mage types in the 2e games), but I feel like if I play that for each game, I'm basically the same person with different hats...:smallsigh:

Also, should I look into picking up Icewind Dale 2: Complete and Neverwinter Nights 2: Complete from GOG.com to complete the timeline, so to speak? I understand that it's unlikely that Icewind Dale 2 won't get an Enhanced Edition from Beamdog because the source code is missing or something, and Neverwinter Nights 2 is kind of bound up in copyright things with Atari or something, but at the same time, I can't predict the future, so they MIGHT get Enhanced, especially NWN 2, and in the present, I'm hesitant to split my game library.

[J-H]

If you can find it and stand the old interface, add Planescape: Torment to your list.

Icewind Dale, BG1/2, and Neverwinter Nights all follow different plotlines at different times in different parts of the Forgotten Realms.

You can beat NWN and the expansions with just about anything. I think last time I touched the game I found an old save that was a scythe-wielding Paladin/Sorcerer/Red Dragon Disciple. Technically everything should work together, but you end up with a 2nd-rate melee character with 3rd-rate spellcasting, so it's really underpowered.

For Baldur's Gate I & II, if you want a single character to run through both games, a dual-classed Cleric/Ranger is pretty good. You can dual wield or use a shield, and there are good warhammer options (BG1) and excellent mace & warhammer options (BGII). Thanks to the way the spell lists are designed, you end up being able to cast high level druid spells (notably Iron Skins and Insect Plague) from your cleric slots.
For BG2, a Paladin is also a good option, as what is unarguably the single most powerful sword in the game is Paladin only (or thief with Use Any Item at the epic 3M XP breakpoint), and there's only one Paladin NPC. Inquisitor is strong against casters but lacks healing; Cavalier is useful against many enemies, but not super powerful; Undead Hunter is very handy early on, but you can pick up the immunities later with items.

[Calemyr]

For the Baldur's Gate EE Trilogy (BG1EE, Siege of Dragonspear, BG2EE), there are a lot of ways to play it that I've found fun.

1) Swashbuckler is probably my favorite single-class option as it paint the picture of effectively an anti-Bhaalspawn as it foregoes the ruthless quick kill (backstab) in favor of a more well-rounded competence. None of the games require that much from a thief, but they do generally require one and Imoen isn't always around to save your sorry butt. SoD in particular has limited rogues to choose from, Safana and Glint, with Safana being unplayably unpleasant to me. Glint is great, and a cleric to boot so he ticks two requirements with one charismatic recruit, but he's SoD only with no connection to the greater narrative, so sometimes I prefer to use a thief of my own instead.

2) Sorceror has a new kit in EE, the Dragon Disciple, which is pretty good. You don't get as many spells per day (-1 per spell level), but you get a boatload of passive bonuses such as increased hit die (d6 rather than d4), increased CON (you can easily get 20 CON, and thus innate regeneration), fire resistance, and a natural armor bonus that stacks with armor - well, robes. When you factor in how many magic item slots and spell slots that frees up and the fact that all of the items/spells that can do that stuff stack with the innate bonuses, it's a fairly good trade in my book. When I play a DD, I usually headcanon it as divine influence rather than draconic, that even in their normal form my sorcerer is half Slayer.

3) Monk absolutely owns BG2, particularly ToB. It's tricky early on, but good grief they kick butt in the end. The EE series does include a monk in Rasaad, who isn't bad. Unfortunately his stats are lackluster to be kind, making him very gear-reliant in order to even try to be competitive (which is a problem given their limited access to gear). In ToB, however, he's still the demigod of destruction any monk is. Playing a monk, I like to envision Gorion trying to instill in the character the kind of discipline needed to overcome their base nature as a Bhaalspawn.

4) Cleric/Ranger was at one point awesome beyond imagining, as the divine spells were pooled and gave you access to all cleric and druid spells, combined with a slightly broader skillset (in martial prowess and the addition of stealth). The druid specific spells include some major doozies, such as an AoE 24 Hour invisibility, a stoneskin alternative, and the ultimate mage disruptor. End result is an obscenely powerful melee Swiss army knife that can act as a main healer. Doesn't work so well anymore, as Beamdog decided to fix this problem in a patch: the ranger class only unlocks spell levels as they gain access to them, so you will never get access to the fun stuff. You can modify the config file to restore this functionality, but I don't know if you'd count that as legit.

5) Shaman is an odd new class. It acts like a druidic sorceror, getting access to only a few spells but getting to cast whatever they want more often than others would. They also get as "free" spells a list of shaman-only spells that are actually pretty decent if used properly. They get a rather odd set of weapon proficiencies, including axes and shortbows. They also get a rather odd class feature in Dancing: you can't do anything with the character (moving or performing any action breaks the effect), but while dancing you summon a near continuous stream of spirit animals and elementals who fight your enemies. The quality of the summons, the number you can maintain at a time, and the likelihood of spawning something in a given round improve as you gain levels. Unfortunately, the summons aren't particularly powerful and the inability to move or directly control the summons means that it's a long buildup to raise a spirit army and it will rarely be relevant for more than one fight, if that. But it's an unlimited resource and it's just a nice bonus. Siege of Dragonspear includes a recruitable shaman in M'khiin, my favorite character in the game, though she doesn't appear in BG2EE. Speaking of BG2EE, there is no shaman stronghold, so shamans miss out on some combination of bonus XP, gold, magical items, and story. Some of the strongholds aren't that great, though, so how much that hurts is up to you. I like the class, flavor-wise, as a sort of "death-positive" class (using spirits as allies rather than slaves or victims) to counter the influence of Bhaal. Also, I've always had a soft spot for the "gypsy dancer heroine" archetype, which this class plays to, so there's that.

6) Cleric/Thief or Fighter/Cleric/Thief is a good one-stop shop for taking out all of your required roles in one go, freeing you up to have pretty much any party makeup you'd like. The game doesn't make very harsh demands of a thief and any form of cleric is a valuable asset. If you don't want to waste party space on these prerequisite roles, this isn't a bad idea. Narrative-wise it makes sense, too, as your primary influences growing up were the order of Oghma and Imoen, which could easily split a person between religion and mischief.

7) Skald is my "official" main character. Skald isn't that powerful on its own, but combine it with a powerful party and you've got a supremely powerful party. Access to magic of limited spell level but advanced caster level (great for variable dependent spells like Magic Missile and Chromatic Orb) is pretty useful, and access to wands makes it even better. As a fighter, you're reasonably okay (if you complete Dorn's personal questline you can get a suit of elven chain as soon as you can reach Baldur's Gate, which really helps), but your song can really turn the tide of a tough fight. Personally, I adore the idea of the most feared character in the story being less than imposing personally but an effective leader who could turn a pack of wolves into a pack of dire wolves.

The Black Pits modes for BG1EE and BG2EE are mainly an excuse to build your own party and participate in fights with them. They're based in a single location (an arena, but different arenas in each). There's some narrative in the first game, but it's primarily regarding the primary antagonist: a drow sorceror named Baeloth the Entertainer, who happens to run the arena in the first game. In the second game, you're in an arena in Thay. Baeloth is a recruitable character in BG1EE and Siege of Dragonspear, though he's a tricky recruit in BG1EE. Essentially, you need a party that's level 5 or higher before visiting the south-west corner of one of the forest zones (Peldvale, I think). As you walk past a tower, he just appears out of nowhere (having just been beaten in the Black Pits) and graciously allows you to benefit from his company. He's a drow, so you have the -2 to rep for recruiting him, but he's a powerhouse sorceror whose showman persona and quite possibly subconsicous tendency for alliteration can be quite entertaining, especially in a party with EE exclusives like Neera and Rasaad. In SoD, he's just in the forest free for you to recruit, but you'll generally want to choose between him and M'khiin, as the two do not get along. M'khiin is awesome enough that I've never had a problem with that decision.

Other games:

Icewind Dale 1 & 2 are not directly related to Baldur's Gate (though you can buy some IWD themed gear in BG2). They aren't even thematically similar - rather than being a narrative-driven dive into the life of a person forced into a tug of war between mortality and divinity, IWD is a loot-focused dungeon crawler where your party is player-generated and lack roles in the narrative beyond "these are the people killing you today". If you play BG for the gameplay, IWD is right up your alley. If you play BG for the story, it's not a very satisfying experience.

If you are a more story-focused player, I'd recommend Planescape: Torment. The combat isn't the best part of the game (honestly it's mostly a distraction from the story), but the story is powerful - quite possibly better than Baldur's Gate itself, in fact. Your character, an amnesiac so covered in scars that he resembles a zombie, wakes up on a mortuary slab in the extraplanar city of Sigil. He quickly learns he's effectively immortal, but that's about it. Trying to figure out why you're immortal and who you are and what you can do about any of it is the focus of the game. You gather a crew of exotic and conflicted characters, ranging from a wise-cracking floating skull to a chaste succubus to what is effectively a malfunctioning robot, and in this case it's a plot point that they're like that (by your nature you attract broken people to your side). Really good stuff, but saddled with a combat system that doesn't do it any real favors.

Neverwinter Nights 1 & 2 are D&D 3/3.5 games and not directly related to Baldur's Gate. NWN1 is effectively an excuse to create a multiplayer, player-content-focused platform and is a pretty weak story. The expansion packs for it tell a much better story, though, following the students of a veteran adventurer forced to deal with the aftermath when their mentor's past adventures come back to haunt him. Still not the best told story, but it's light years better than the original campaign and pretty good. Also includes Deekin, the timid kobold bard, who is a personal favorite of mine. NWN2 is far more cinematic and narrative based, based around a village kid forced to reassemble the shards of a broken legendary sword. Companions are quite cliche (such as the fast-talking tiefling rogue and the dwarven fighter), but still charismatic enough to enjoy. The expansions are very different from one another. Mask of the Betrayer is an epic-level conclusion to the original story, while Storm of Zehir is almost a completely different style of game altogether, sculpted to feel more like a real tabletop game than a computer game to a surprising degree of success. The companions in Zehir are fairly compelling, but saddled with horrifically sub-optimal builds.

I hope this long-winded monologue is of some help. I adore these games and love any opportunity to talk about them.

[Winthur]

For BG2, a Paladin is also a good option, as what is unarguably the single most powerful sword in the game
Very arguably considering the practical applications and utility cost of items such as Foebane, Celestial Fury or Scarlet Ninja-To, and also considering that dual-wielding is a superior fighting style. Carsomyr is often not as strong as dual-wielding a Foebane+Purifier combo on a Paladin, although it's still a worthy weapon to keep around. It's just that it's often not necessarily the strongest choice for pure damage dealing.

Inquisitor is strong against casters but lacks healing
More importantly, it lacks Armor of Faith, one of the very few ways you can receive %-based damage reduction (with Hardiness and an off-hand Defender of Easthaven, it amounts to a lot). Still, without nerfs appointed by Sword Coast Stratagems mod (very popular difficulty enhancer that doesn't rely on cheese), Inquisitor is very strong because the 2x dispel he casts trivializes fights that would otherwise require knowing the Mage Chess dynamic.

Cavalier is useful against many enemies, but not super powerful
Cavalier is mostly just a Paladin+ with an ultimately irrelevant drawback that can be sidestepped because thrown axes and daggers do not care for the kit's flaw. It's just a plain better Paladin for everything except late BG1 where the best items in the game are the various magical arrows, and even there you can live with it.


3) Monk absolutely owns BG2, particularly ToB.
It does not. It's a garbage class that takes forever to reach any sort of power level, and its restrictions make it painful to play through BG1 (no ranged options worth shaking a stick at). A well-played, optimized pure Berserker can bring about all of the Monk goodies to the table and more, and he doesn't have to suffer through an atrocious early game (instead farming Sirines effortlessly) and lackluster mid-game to get to that point. There's hardly anything a Monk has that you can't replicate through martial HLAs or keeping a good assortment of off-hand items or consumables. The saving throws and magic resistance aren't worth it, and their damage dealing abilities aren't as great as a dual-wielding warrior with Improved Haste (especially considering the utility available on weapons). They also aren't great tanks because Baldur's Gate is designed accidentally in such a way that tanking itemization is garbage for warriors (Avoidance, as in Armor Class, does not scale well at all into ToB and there's very little % damage reduction) and the best tanks are arcane spellcasters, and Monks can't even wear a helmet so they die.

Here are my ideas for solid Baldur's Gate characters for each flavor of character:
Single-classes
Warriors:
Cavalier Paladin. As mentioned before, the class is just a Paladin++, and Paladins are very satisfying to play. Very high Charisma that they are stuck with, as well as the amount of rep you get, means you will inevitably have good shop prices. High Charisma even allows you to sidestep inter-party conflicts allowing you to keep a few NPCs that would otherwise not be good neighbors. The spellcasting abilities of the Paladin will add some bonus flavor. I could also recommend the Archer Ranger for the sheer amount of power and utility the class brings (even in ToB, where they are generally surmised as a "poor late game choice" (something that stems from various bits of misinformation scattered through old online discussions and guides, I find), they still hit like a truck with their constant damage scaling through levels, massive APR, Called Shot and possibility to apply Warrior HLAs at range - most entertainingly, Smite and Greater Deathblow), but the Archer Ranger is also a freaking turret that you might find monotonous even if it does crush everything in its path; you might miss the nuance from positioning yourself properly and stuff.
For a more pure martial I'd also recommend a Barbarian due to ease of use, various minor goodies (immunity to backstab, massive health pool, slight movement speed increase) and the fact that Barbarians get the Fighter stronghold, which is a strong contender for one of the best ones in the game. They're among the better purely martial tanks.
Rogues:
The Blade Bard. Although the Skald nomination given by Calemyr is excellent (the Bard kits are all overall great), your tenure as a F/M fan will make you love the Blade. You get the gish flavor from the start with the distinctive Offensive and Defensive spins and the Bardic spellcasting makes this class quite potent on the frontline. You don't really sing much, but that's okay because only the Skald and the end-game High Level Ability Enhanced Bard Song is worth anything in BG; this isn't IWD. (Incidentally, I'd keep a "singing" type of Bard around for IWD1, where the game really, really, REALLY wants you to have a support Bard on the backline due to the various songs the game introduces).
Otherwise, the Bounty Hunter Thief. The Assassin was nerfed in BGEE due to the fact that it shares the Poison weapon skill with the Blackguard towards whom the nerf to the skill was aimed at (because apparently a 1 Attack Per Round class that can use poison at middling THAC0 should also suffer because a martial class can apply said poison at 5 Attacks Per Round with Warrior THAC0. Amazing.). The Bounty Hunter is very entertaining to play and the traps scale well into late game. The only problem you might have is that traps can be considered a cheesy playstyle. Otherwise I like the Swashbuckler mentioned by Calemyr for all the reasons, but for the almost exact same flavor I would almost always pick a Fighter/Thief multiclass, either Elf or Halfling. Single-classed Thieves can be great fun to play, but they're also micro-intensive.
Wizards:
Sorcerer. They're obnoxiously good in BG, as arcanists generally rule BG2 and Sorcerers have excellent level scaling, plus the game throws a ton of solid spellcaster NPCs that can help you make up for any shortcomings you do while levelling.
Priests:
Totemic Druid. Druids are bonkers in BG2 to make up for how bad they were in BG1, and now BGEE brings you a more proper Druid spell scaling in BG1, so you can live through the awful spell level 2. In BG2, Druids have three ridiculously broken spells that cement them as a good choice for any party - Insect Plague, Ironskins, and Nature's Beauty. They boast plenty of utility outside of it, but those are the big three. Insect Plague in particular is so good that I would consider Druids a decent pick even if they only had this ability. It's so good that multiple mods nerf the spell and the Druid with it.

Munchkin multis and duals
You said you don't want to be a one-trick gish pony, so maybe try something like Cleric/Mage, Mage/Thief or similar; although BG2 in particular is absolute heaven for gishes, with Human Berserker (9) -> Mage being one of the most potent combos in the game in terms of survivability, power and utility. I also think Thieves are best enjoyed as a multi- or dual-class simply because pure Thieves tend to rely on hoarding consumables, abusing utility and setting up the battlefield and having them hybridized with another class that can do some heavy lifting allows you to sometimes just let loose with a more direct approach. Coran and Jan Jansen are generally considered powerhouses for a reason.

Otherwise play whatever you want because these games aren't that hard and everything is doable and entertaining.

As for Icewind Dale, I think that game is very specifically best enjoyed in full party play and in order to help you with a master playthrough of that we'd have to design a full 6-man party for you. That might prove daunting... or you might just take a hodgepodge of all the suggestions in the thread. Icewind Dale 2 is a whole different bag of worms, too, and optimizing a 3rd edition party would take a huge page to do so.

As for NWN1, my favourite build for a clean and casual playthrough is the humble Fighter/Rogue/Weapon Master as it allows you to hack'n'slash through the game while getting a ton of skill dumps to put into the speech skills which I enjoy having maxed out in every game since the original Fallout. It's more of a clever, guile-based Fighter with an uberweapon fishing for crits than a proper Fighter/Rogue mix; the Rogue part is mostly there for Persuade and Tumble dumps for me. That said, NWN1 is also heaven for Clerics and Druids in particular. Clerics and Paladins should have a great run through the original content of NWN1 because there's a lot of stuff to smite and plenty of undead to deal with.

[Cheesegear]

Icewind Dale; EE is pretty much the bad times. I very much prefer the Complete Edition from GOG.

One of the most important things about IWD is that the XP cap is Level 30 in any class - including multi-classes. It's possible to be a 30/30/30 Fighter/Mage/Thief. However, the main thing you have to concern yourself with is that in IWD, single-classed PCs are basically pointless because your PCs get basically unlimited XP. However, there isn't necessarily unlimited XP in the game.

Paladins and Bards may be single-classed PCs, but there's enough stuff in the game that keeps them relevant. Specifically, one of the best weapons in the game for Paladins, and Bards getting a song that gives basically permanent 2HP/round Regeneration on your entire party. However, it should be noted that Kits, from EE, cannot use basically the best ability in the entire game, 'cause turns out, Baldur's Gate 2 wasn't made for Icewind Dale 1. Who knew?

The other thing in Icewind Dale, is the random item generation, and the restrictions on several random items in the game.
Your alignment, matters.
Your race, matters.
The best helmet in the game can only be worn by Halflings and Gnomes. So, not only do you have to be a Multi-Class (because if you're not a Paladin or Bard you should be Multi-ing or Dual-ing), but one of your Classes has to be able to wear a helmet. That is, a Gnome Thief/Mage is bad. But a Halfling Fighter/Thief is awesome.

You can't even pre-build your characters because, fact is, you don't know what items you're gonna get on any given run. You can save-scum to get the item you want, however it does require doing the entire area from scratch. All random items on a map are generated when you enter the area for the first time - not when you open the chest/kill the boss. That said, every time your level-up would grant you a proficiency point...Maybe don't level up until you've cleared an area and know what items you have.

That said, there are a few fixed items in the game that you can build around; Pale Justice is a Long Sword +4 (+7 vs. Evil [so, basically everything], immunity to Fear and Charm) that is only usable by Paladins and it has a fixed location in the game. Which means at some point in the game - not necessarily during character generation - your Paladin is going to want to put 2-stars into Long Sword, and walk around sword-and-board. But, in the EE, certain Paladin kits are already immune to Fear and Charm so...Lame.

[Winthur]

But, in the EE, certain Paladin kits are already immune to Fear and Charm so...Lame.
There's also that under IWD-with-BG2-mechanics you will want to eventually dual-wield on every possible martial because that's the best weapon style in BG2 by far and the math behind APR (and its interaction with Improved Haste) ensures that you always want to wield two weapons if possible.

Incidentally, with the addition of kits and dual-wielding IWDEE is decidedly a much easier game than vanilla.

[Calemyr]

I'll own up to the monk. I am not a hardcore player (I'll never go beyond standard difficulty, much less Legacy of Bhaal), so I'm never really that pressed for sheer optimization. In my experience, monks combine speed, attack rate, and raw damage in solid proportion in the end-game, such that often I found it easier to just let the monk wipe out armies while the rest of the party watched from the sidelines. I found them to be scarily effective, but I didn't play on a high enough difficulty level that I needed every scrap of power in order to dominate. Of course, they are such feeble creatures in BG1 and early BG2 that it's probably my weakest suggestion even with my opinion on their end-game effectiveness.

Swashbuckler vs Fighter/Thief: I'll be honest. I tend to cheat when I play a thief myself - start as a human berserker, dual class into thief at level 2, then use Shadowkeeper to swap the the kit to swashbuckler. The increased ability to specialize is welcome, the extra HP is vital early on, and the ability to throw on more armor options pays off at times. Plus, there are times when a berserker rage is the solution to all of life's problems, such as mages that like maze and imprisonment. Given the choice between a standard swashbuckler and a standard multi-class, I favor the swashbuckler. You can still specialize in melee weapons (multi-class warriors can't do better than that, anyway), the defensive and offensive buffs are really handy, and there's no such thing as too many skill points. Fighter/Thief, however, *can* take Use Any Item and effectively wield paladin-exclusive weapons, which is always fun - particularly backstabbing something with the Purifier.

For NWN, what kind of weapon do you favor for your weapon master? Kukri? Rapier? Scythe? I always got a kick out of playing a scythe weapon master as a farmer-turned-adventurer. Why else would a fighter use a field scythe in combat rather than a war scythe? Okay, other than edge lords...

[Cheesegear]

There's also that under IWD-with-BG2-mechanics you will want to eventually dual-wield on every possible martial...

Yeah. I forgot about that. :smallannoyed:
Ranger/Cleric, or Ranger >> Cleric is already one of the best PCs in the game. Giving them double damage output only makes them even stronger. There's ****-loads of magical blunt weapons in the game, even with IWD's random loot.

[Winthur]

I'll own up to the monk. I am not a hardcore player (I'll never go beyond standard difficulty, much less Legacy of Bhaal)
Oh, I don't play Legacy of Bhaal myself, as it's a busted difficulty which has its own sleuth of problems (here, the most successful approach doesn't involve melee whatsoever; you kite everything at range and abuse the fact that your summons also are afflicted by the LoB difficulty modifiers) - I add challenge to the game through mods (I recommend Sword Coast Stratagems, even with just the AI fixes, to everyone) and play on Core or Insane depending on the mood and desired masochism level.


In my experience, monks combine speed, attack rate, and raw damage in solid proportion in the end-game, such that often I found it easier to just let the monk wipe out armies while the rest of the party watched from the sidelines.
See, this does work, except one of the issues that is overlooked in the equation is that Fighters of all shapes are capable of doing it in Vanilla Core Difficulty all on their own because BG2 throws tons of powerful artifacts at you, and a Fighter doesn't have to suffer through an atrocious early game or a Human-only race restriction to get anywhere. I like the concept of Monks and have played them in many games, but BG2 doesn't even deliver on the "Magikarp Power" potential, in my opinion, because all of the good stuff they get in the late game is achievable - and even surpassable - by regular martials, except with less prep. Add on the possibility of Fighters being duals or multis, too. For all the work you have to put into levelling one, the payoff is fairly miniscule.




Swashbuckler vs Fighter/Thief: I'll be honest. I tend to cheat when I play a thief myself - start as a human berserker, dual class into thief at level 2, then use Shadowkeeper to swap the the kit to swashbuckler. The increased ability to specialize is welcome, the extra HP is vital early on, and the ability to throw on more armor options pays off at times. Plus, there are times when a berserker rage is the solution to all of life's problems, such as mages that like maze and imprisonment. Given the choice between a standard swashbuckler and a standard multi-class, I favor the swashbuckler. You can still specialize in melee weapons (multi-class warriors can't do better than that, anyway), the defensive and offensive buffs are really handy, and there's no such thing as too many skill points. Fighter/Thief, however, *can* take Use Any Item and effectively wield paladin-exclusive weapons, which is always fun - particularly backstabbing something with the Purifier.

On that note, have you tried dualing out of Swashbuckler? Dualled out at level 10, you get a solid chunk of Rogue utility and the scaling THAC0/damage bonuses and can go on to become a solid Mage or even Swash->Fighter. One nice thing you can do regardless of whatever Thief you go for is be your own homing True Seeing beacon due to Detect Illusions being quite a strong effect. Assassin->Mage also holds the distinction of allowing you to hurl poisoned Melf's Minute Meteors (5 APR weapon with a high enchantment value), for example.




For NWN, what kind of weapon do you favor for your weapon master? Kukri? Rapier? Scythe? I always got a kick out of playing a scythe weapon master as a farmer-turned-adventurer. Why else would a fighter use a field scythe in combat rather than a war scythe? Okay, other than edge lords...

There are a couple of choices here that stem from sheer power (Scimitar for regular sword-and-board critfisher, Scythe for maximized critical modifier, Rapier or Kukri in more Rogue-leaning builds that focus on amassing Sneak Attacks; I'm not a fan of that in the OC, though, because original game loves putting Sneak Attack immune enemies everywhere.) and some that are just plain fun (Double [Weapon] to "cheat" dual-wielding a bit or whatever weapon you want as long as it looks cool and has good representatives in a given module; Greataxe or Heavy Flail might give a nice "look" to a brutish character, the latter is quite a decent choice in the OC actually). F/R/WM is generally flexible enough in that department and the main point is that it's also clever and charismatic enough to experience most content due to the skilldumps in Rogue. You can also substitute Rogue with Monk to make yourself a Kama Weapon Master and abuse Flurry of Blows, although this one might run into Attack Bonus issues. Generally, though, the most cookie-cutter variants rely on the Weapon Master's critfishing.

[Calemyr]

On that note, have you tried dualing out of Swashbuckler? Dualled out at level 10, you get a solid chunk of Rogue utility and the scaling THAC0/damage bonuses and can go on to become a solid Mage or even Swash->Fighter. One nice thing you can do regardless of whatever Thief you go for is be your own homing True Seeing beacon due to Detect Illusions being quite a strong effect. Assassin->Mage also holds the distinction of allowing you to hurl poisoned Melf's Minute Meteors (5 APR weapon with a high enchantment value), for example.

Swash/Mage is one of my go-to mage builds, being more robust than a Kensai and more useful than a berserker. Good defenses on a mage is handy and, as with the Skald, the bonuses to attack and damage are wonderful for Minute Meteors (or Energy Blades, if you can swing that 9th level spells).

For my part, the part more important than the main character, however, is the party. That's the part that really leaves me in choice paralysis, as once I know my party I can decide my main character fairly easily. Do you have a party in mind for the Baldur's Gate games?

I usually use one of three narratives for my party (unless I have something particular in mind already).

The EE Crew: Rasaad, Neera, and Dorn in all three games. Baeloth, Imoen, Glint, Yoshimo, and Hexxat/Wilson when available. Best played with a healer MC. BG1's companions are pretty lackluster, for the most part, and Enhanced Edition does little to fix that. The EE members, on the other hand, have a lot of banter and interactions with each other, making the party feel like a team instead of a squad of automatons. Since most EE characters are available in every game, it's easy enough to build a largely consistent party across the the trilogy. Wilson is an oddly effective fighter (kinda like a monk or a kensei, but a bear), but doesn't have much dialogue. Hexxat has several unique dungeons to crawl, some interesting mechanics to her name, and a lot of dialogue, but she's yet another evil character and sometimes you can only take so much evil. The EE crew has a lot of writing going for them, but there are diverse opinions as to the quality of that writing, as I'm sure Winthur can attest.

The Canon Crew: Minsc and Jaheira in all three games. Imoen, Dynaheir, Khalid, and Sarevok when available, with a free slot or two to balance the party. This is the original canon crew, after all, and for good reason as they are a fairly well balanced party mechanically and conversationally. Sometimes I leave Jaheira and Khalid out of BG1 and SoD (after completing the first Mine, just to send them off) and take other characters - particularly Viconia, as she's one of characters to show up in all three games and is both available early in each and useful to boot. This is partly because Jaheira only technically shows up in SoD, as they couldn't get her voice actress back for the role nor find a reasonable facsimile, resulting in her having a lot less presence in SoD than other games. Khalid, however, is oddly awesome in SoD and the two aren't joined at the hip there, so you can have one and not the other.

Ronin Warriors: (Named after an old anime where the party routinely got separated and forced to regroup in different combinations.) The only rule here is that, other than Imoen, nobody joins the party for more than one game, possibly even including the break between SoA and ToB. Besides allowing me to use practically anyone, particularly one-shot wonders like M'Khiin, Corwin, and Glint from SoD, I find that it evokes a strange sense of isolation where the main character builds comradery with a party only to lose it all again and again. It also leads helps me envision the main character being inordinately reliant on Imoen (the one constant in their chaotic life), to the point where their focus (if not obsession) towards saving/avenging her in SoD and SoA makes a lot of sense.

Does anyone else use strategies like that for discerning the party they'll use in a given run?

[Winthur]

The EE Crew:
I dislike this idea vehemently because the EE NPCs are, in my opinion, written in a way that ranges in various ways from "obnoxious and intrusive" (they initiate dialogue a lot and their fairly grandiose narratives feel like they clash with the more open design of BG1; particularly the hulking half-orc with his own illegal class and special artifact sword feels jarring in BG1, and so are things like adding a Monk companion into BG1, realizing halfway through the design that he's horrible, and giving him a lot of personal items to compensate his weakness). EE companions want you to use them even though there's nothing particularly entertaining about having them (they're not mechanically amazing either). If the concern exists about the BG1 NPCs being fairly lackluster and barebones, the writing in the BG1 NPC Project mod is just about as good as it gets for adding banter, character interaction, and bonus characterization. I wouldn't say one should attempt to make a full EE party - they're not necessarily all that cohesive together, especially Dorn and his supremely evil tendencies.

On a personal note, I also believe Rasaad to be the most absolutely worthless character ever written in a cRPG, all the way down to his bad specialization (Monks, for all of their supposed payoff, demand excessive amounts of micromanagement to be considered even close to a contributor to a party, and Rasaad gets welfare gear to help him compensate!), lackluster plot tied to him and a massive letdown of a romance ending.


recommended to use a healer MC
I wouldn't say a "healer MC" is ever really "necessary" because, as is the case often in D&D, having a healer is one of the less important requirements in any party. There's plenty of good NPCs capable of filling this role in either game (although clerics/druids are best off as buffing, debuffing, utility, summons and damage soaks; healing issues are best solved with Rods of Resurrection and potions in BG2); another reason why I wouldn't really bother with an "EE crew only" run. They're not even particularly synergistic with one another.


Does anyone else use strategies like that for discerning the party they'll use in a given run?
There's also the Classic Evil Party wherein Korgan (and in BG1, Kagain), Edwin and Viconia are joined in a triumvirate, each filling a good niche, and with some good neutral party members to spice it up. I'm not a big fan of Dorn (again, I find his presence overbearing and his overall ability overrated) or Hexxat, but they can be considered (I'd prefer Jan over Hexxat and keep the 6th spot for a wild card of any sort, including Imoen, Cernd or Haer'dalis). I do like Baeloth in BG1 somewhat.
Honestly, though, I've played the game in multiple different setups and I think all of them have interesting things to offer - there are interesting insights to be offered between characters on completely different places on the alignment spectrum (Korgan / Mazzy, Korgan / Keldorn), so often I just throw the spaghetti at a wall and see what sticks.

[Calemyr]

BG1NPC is a wonderful mod and one I will not play BG1 without. On the PC. Can't do that one on a phone/tablet, however, which is what I usually use these days for these games. So I tend to favor the poor writing of the EE crew over the near-absent writing of everyone else. And then, because I like largely consistent parties, I am stuck with them. I mean, I don't hate them the way you do, and I like the additional content built around them, but they're fairly average at best, and downright cringe-inducing at times.

The closest I can get to the Evil party is a redemption party with Viconia and Sarevok. I know, I'm a sap, but while an evil character can be entertaining I don't find much entertainment in an evil party. In Baldur's Gate, that is. There are games where playing against the angels is wonderful entertainment for the money, but this trilogy isn't.

[Winthur]

The closest I can get to the Evil party is a redemption party with Viconia and Sarevok. I know, I'm a sap, but while an evil character can be entertaining I don't find much entertainment in an evil party. In Baldur's Gate, that is. There are games where playing against the angels is wonderful entertainment for the money, but this trilogy isn't.
Well, I'd say that a game about being a spawn of Lord of Murder is a good enough opportunity for some evil, especially since you can interpret the means towards it somewhat loosely. My first Druid was a lynchpin in an Evil/Neutral party who saw his group as highly efficient mercenaries and means to an end. It helps that quite a few conversations humanize those characters, particularly little bits like Korgan saying he'd never harm a child and, of course, the entire Viconia romance. That said, I do think BG was never particularly good at giving you an "evil" way to go, as most evil quest resolutions tend to be about eating kittens for no reason. I enjoy my evil parties or evil party members as powerful assets that can use some disciplining in order to not run amok. (It helps that sufficiently high Charisma neuters inter-party conflicts...)

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Whoa! This has given me a lot to chew on! Thank you! :smallsmile:

I do have Planescape: Torment - Enhanced Edition as well, I just hadn't included it as I initially thought of it outside of Forgotten Realms' continuity. Then I remember Zhaeve references Da'akon in Neverwinter Nights 2, so I'm re-including it now.

The first thing I'm trying to straighten out is the general "timeline." I mean, some things are obvious, Baldur's Gate followed by Siege of Dragonspear followed by Baldur's Gate II, for example. But how do these other games relate to one another in terms of Forgotten Realms chronology? My understanding is...

...the villain of Siege of Dragonspear is also the bad guy of one of the Icewind Dale games.

So I'm wondering if I need to play Baldur's Gate first, then Icewind Dale, and then Siege of Dragonspear. And then there's where in the timeline the Black Pits stuff fits in, since defeating the villain there is what results in him appearing in Baldur's Gate's campaign. And where do these stories fit chronologically in Faerun's overall timeline too? I know Storm of Zehir takes place right before the Spellplague hits, and Baldur's Gate takes place after the Time of Troubles, but that's the extent of my knowledge...and throwing Planescape: Torment in there is a whole other can of worms!

Second, I've got some basics in mind for the PCs I'll eventually play.

Bhaalspawn: I've honestly been leaning mostly towards Bard, and wasn't sure between Skald or Blade, since as many of you have demonstrated, both are good. It also does fit with the background that was described, since Oghma has a lot of bard fans from my understanding. My main issue with this one is trying to figure out who to date...my instinct has been leaning most towards Aerie or maybe Anomen (my character's gender being determined by which one I pick), as Jaheira's is kind of...awkward, considering that Gorion asked her and Khalid to adopt the Bhaalspawn should something happen to him, so while she ISN'T the Bhaalspawn's step-mom, she COULD have been, and Viconia and Rasaad's are both tragic. And Minsc (and Boo!) are mandatory.

Icewind Dale: I shall probably get to this later, as it requires creating a whole party, though I DO know I'll be including a Paladin because of Pale Justice.

Black Pits: Same goes for this, creating a whole party.

Neverwinter Nights OC: This is one that may be tricky, as in order to do all the quests you can in the Original Campaign, you not only have to have at least one level in an arcane spellcasting class (since one quest in the first chapter is barred from you if you don't), but also enough levels of Druid to complete the Druid Circle quest in the second chapter. Plus, naturally, I want to be able to persuade people, since only the main character can DO that.

Neverwinter Nights SoU+HotU: I'm unsure of this one, but my understanding is that, at least in SoU, paladins get some extra stuff, so I'm leaning to at least having SOME levels of that. Like with the Bhaalspawn, though, I'm also trying to decide who my character may eventually date: Vhalen? Nathyrra? Aribeth? All I know is that Deekin will be by my side the whole time! He's my favorite character in the series!

[GloatingSwine]

Obviously the One True Canon for Baldur's Gate is to play a Dwarf and not let anyone taller than you into the party.

It's reasonably practical too. You can get Montaron, Kagain, and Quayle basically as soon as you like. Kagain's a solid frontliner, Monty's really versatile with decent Dex, Str, and Con, and Quayle can cover your casting until you pick up Yeslick and Tiax later on.

[Winthur]

The first thing I'm trying to straighten out is the general "timeline."

Ignore the impact of the EE content on the "timeline" because the ties between EE content are too flimsy to care and it's not like your Bhaalspawn is in any way related to your IWD party.

while she ISN'T the Bhaalspawn's step-mom, she COULD have been
That's kind of hot to be honest.

[Morty]

I played an evil Swashbuckler once, with Korgan, Viconia, Edwin, Jaheira and Yoshimo, who was replaced by Sarevok later. So I played with a five-person party for a while. Jaheira sticking around with this bunch never did make sense to me. Her Neutral alignment is really just a requirement of the rules, since otherwise she'd be an abrasive Neutral Good. It was an unmodded game, so the swashbuckler wasn't really very good at anything, but I had fun anyway.

And I wasn't aware the games had any real place in the Forgotten Realms chronology, such as it even is. Trying to tie Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale together strikes me as a rather pointless endeavor as well.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Well, according to the wiki, Neverwinter Nights 2 takes place in the year 1374 DR, approximately 11 years before the Spellplague, and from what I'm seeing, Baldur's Gate takes place in the years 1368 and 1369...I assume Shadows and Hordes takes place approximately between 1372 and 1374...I'm not sure where Icewind Dale fits in this line...

[Cheesegear]

Icewind Dale: I shall probably get to this later, as it requires creating a whole party, though I DO know I'll be including a Paladin because of Pale Justice.

If you're playing with Kits, Pale Justice is kind of redundant before you even leave the prologue area. :smallsigh:


Well, according to the wiki, Neverwinter Nights 2 takes place in the year 1374 DR, approximately 11 years before the Spellplague, and from what I'm seeing, Baldur's Gate takes place in the years 1368 and 1369...I assume Shadows and Hordes takes place approximately between 1372 and 1374...I'm not sure where Icewind Dale fits in this line...

Icewind Dale takes place approximately 90 years before Baldur's Gate.
Icewind Dale 2 takes place 30 years after the first.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

How do you mean? From what it looks like Pale Justice doesn't grant immunities like the kits do, it just does extra damage...or does one of the kits do extra damage or something?

Either way, this changes things. Icewind Dale is where I'll start, then, and i think what I'll do is use Planescape Torment as a break before securing Icewind Dale 2...

[Cheesegear]

How do you mean? From what it looks like Pale Justice doesn't grant immunities like the kits do, it just does extra damage...

Pale Justice grants immunity to Fear and Charm.
Cavaliers are immune to both...Not to mention the bonus damage vs. some of the later bosses which was definitely not intended.

That makes PJ just a +7 Long Sword. Aihonen is a Long Sword +5 (location is fixed, as long as you do a certain quest in the Prologue :smallwink:). With Cavalier's damage resistance, you'll now have 50%+ resistance to, again, the later bosses' damage. Not to mention Bastard Swords. Sure, PJ might be the only +7 weapon in the game. Aihonen is supposed to make the final boss(es) easier, and represents a minor thing you did all the way back in the Prologue. Aihonen isn't for letting you win the game with a single character - which is exactly what it does do, on a Cavalier.

But, by the time you're at the point in the game required to get it, the +3 to hit and damage over your other +4 weapons is fairly meaningless. The real bonus on PJ is the immunities. But, if you have access to Cavalier, Pale Justice just...Isn't that special. Which steers you directly into Aihonen for the final fights.

Point is, if you're playing Icewind Dale, don't use Kits - for any class. And don't use Two-Weapon Fighting. Two-Weapon Fighting in the original IWD was only for Rangers, and if you had nothing in your off-hand (including shields), you only got 1 extra APR with your main hand weapon. That was it, and yet Cleric/Rangers were still among the best Classes anyway.


Why is EE boring? Because it was never designed to be that easy.
You may as well import Kits and TWF to BG1...Oh wait.

[Inarius]

Point is, if you're playing Icewind Dale, don't use Kits - for any class. And don't use Two-Weapon Fighting. Two-Weapon Fighting in the original IWD was only for Rangers, and if you had nothing in your off-hand (including shields), you only got 1 extra APR with your main hand weapon. That was it, and yet Cleric/Rangers were still among the best Classes anyway.


Why is EE boring? Because it was never designed to be that easy.
You may as well import Kits and TWF to BG1...Oh wait.

Alternatively play with a kit if thats what makes it interesting for you. The games are already easy enough to be beaten with a bad party composition anyway. There are already class combos that are broken in IWD and BG1, adding kits to that just adds variety to the broken combinations already in the game and can spice things up because they add a nice touch of class fantasy to the whole thing which can be more important to some people.

[Cheesegear]

Alternatively play with a kit if thats what makes it interesting for you.

If your version of 'interesting' is 'super easy', then yes.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

That's more reassuring to me than anything else. It means I can craft a party more for story than optimized to survive. The story is what I'm here for. :smallredface:

Also, I've read that by the time MotB takes place Kelemvor has only been a god for 6 years?! Is that accurate?! If so, then things have been in SERIOUS turmoil in Faerun considering the Spellplague hits a little over a decade later! And what does that mean if your Kalach-Cha is a follower of Kelemvor, considering this is a short tenure as deity even by human standards! :smalleek:

So I know I need to create a 6-person party for Icewind Dale. At the moment, I only know two what I really want:

Human Paladin (mainly for Pale Justice, and only humans CAN be paladins so this is pretty much a lock)
Halfling Fighter-Thief (Given what Cheesegear has said about that helmet and how they are awesome, I'm thinking that'd be fun to include. I'm just not sure how that gets built, and what weaponry such a character should go for?)

Thank you all again for the advice!

[Calemyr]

That's more reassuring to me than anything else. It means I can craft a party more for story than optimized to survive. The story is what I'm here for. :smallredface:

Also, I've read that by the time MotB takes place Kelemvor has only been a god for 6 years?! Is that accurate?! If so, then things have been in SERIOUS turmoil in Faerun considering the Spellplague hits a little over a decade later! And what does that mean if your Kalach-Cha is a follower of Kelemvor, considering this is a short tenure as deity even by human standards! :smalleek:

So I know I need to create a 6-person party for Icewind Dale. At the moment, I only know two what I really want:

Human Paladin (mainly for Pale Justice, and only humans CAN be paladins so this is pretty much a lock)
Halfling Fighter-Thief (Given what Cheesegear has said about that helmet and how they are awesome, I'm thinking that'd be fun to include. I'm just not sure how that gets built, and what weaponry such a character should go for?)

Thank you all again for the advice!

While I cannot honestly say IWD is without a story, your party is not particularly involved in it beyond killing the bad guys as the plot dictates. The game is pretty much like Diablo 2 if it were made in the Infinity Engine - the game is intended so you can play the same party through the game repeatedly, finding different loot each time and gradually increasing your level to the cap. There is a plot happening, but it's set up so that it can be readily ignored if you aren't interested or already seen it. Your ranger will not scold you for taking a quest that involves killing animals. You won't find your fighter and thief trading friendly insults over beers in the local tavern (one would hope, at least, given that they're probably going to be the same person in your game). The paladin will not decide that one more bad pun from the evil sorcerer will be moral justification for murder. The yuan-ti priestess did not kill your bard's second niece thrice removed. Well, they can do all of that, but it'll be headcanon and not what's shown on the screen.

NWN2 Storm of Zehir is a little like this, as well, as it focuses on the party and not the individuals, but each individual in that game gets a role to play. Faced with a trollish Ogre Mage, your bard with diplomacy can talk your way out of it, your wizard can dispel the illusions he's surrounded you in, or the NPC druid can talk logic circles around the ogre while casually suggesting that his dinosaur animal companion might fancy a snack right about now. IWD doesn't have this dimension. You usually have a reason to want every creature in this cave or temple extinct, but your choice is mostly just whether your ranger shoots it, your mage fries it, or the barbarian clobbers it.

I'm not saying this to disparage IWD, mind. It's just not the same kind of game as the rest of the list and you should be aware of that walking in. Play the party you want, the game isn't particularly hard however you want to do it and the BG2 aspects do tilt the game to even easier, just keep in mind that the narrative is outward facing (why the villain needs to die) rather than inward facing (why your character in particular would want to kill them). Hope that makes sense.

Planescape, which is IWD's mirror opposite, is definitely part of the same multiverse. BG2 has a few references, but largely just a beholder mentioning the spelljammer setting, and Haer'dalis as a planar traveler who casually refers to everyone on this plane as "primes", because that's typical plane-walker lingo. You'll never see Faerun in Planescape, though. That said, if you want an inward facing narrative, Planescape has no equal.

[Cheesegear]

So I know I need to create a 6-person party for Icewind Dale.

As previously mentioned, you'll want a (Human) Paladin and (Half-Elf) Bard. Paladin Kits ruin the game, and Bard kits don't get the best ability in the game. So...No kits!

Every other Character is going to want to be a Multi- or Dual-Class. Every Character. Because of the phenomenally high XP cap, there's almost no downside to Dual-Classing.
So, let's go down the list...For the purposes of this list, I'm not going to differentiate between Dual-Classing and Multi-Classing. However, know that it's definitely advisable to run an all-Human party. However, that can be boring, especially if playing 'for fun'...

Everything I say will be for the Complete Edition. If you want to deviate from this, just run any Kit you want, specialise in Two-Weapon Fighting.

Fighter/Anything is a good PC, except for Cleric, because...
Ranger/Cleric is perhaps the best class in the (CE) game. Which will solve your Cleric problem. So pick up a Druid?
Thief/Mage is very good.

So, at this point you should have...
Human Paladin
Human or Half-Elf Ranger/Cleric
Halfling Fighter/Thief
Half-Elf Bard (+10% Pickpocket!)

The party is light on Mages and Clerics.
Fighter/Druid is nice, as is (Elf) Fighter/Mage or Mage/Thief.

Unfortunately, due to how massively useful Multi- and Dual-Classing is, races in IWD that aren't Humans or Half-Elves don't offer a whole lot. However, you could get lucky on your gear rolls, which means an Elf Fighter/Mage with Long Swords and Bows would be nice...F/M/T would also work.

I think last I checked, the optimal party was...

Human Paladin
Human Fighter/Druid
Human Ranger/Cleric
Elf Fighter/Thief
Human Thief/Mage
Half-Elf Bard
...With alignments all over the place. :smallwink:

...But, I don't think you're looking to optimise. So just go with whatever you like. If you want to play with one of each race, that's cool. If you've got the four main roles (+ Bard) covered, your sixth slot can be anything you want. However, you can even not play with a sixth and level up even faster.

At the end of the day, IWD isn't hard (but also, it shouldn't be too easy, either). As long as every character who can, is Dual'd or Multi'd, you're on the right path.

[Calemyr]

I think last I checked, the optimal party was...

Human Paladin
Human Fighter/Druid
Human Ranger/Cleric
Elf Fighter/Thief
Human Thief/Mage
Half-Elf Bard
...With alignments all over the place. :smallwink:

...But, I don't think you're looking to optimise. So just go with whatever you like. If you want to play with one of each race, that's cool. If you've got the four main roles (+ Bard) covered, your sixth slot can be anything you want. However, you can even not play with a sixth and level up even faster.

At the end of the day, IWD isn't hard (but also, it shouldn't be too easy, either). As long as every character who can, is Dual'd or Multi'd, you're on the right path.

I must be missing something. I thought multi-class was awesome because of the level cap allowing you to be 30/30/30 if you played it enough and enjoying the full benefit of all the classes, whereas dual-class was awesome in BG because it made more efficient use of the XP cap, allowing you to get the best balance of benefit and XP cost from a second class. A human Fighter/Druid or Ranger/Cleric would max out much faster with much less advantage from their martial class, unless you dual-classed at 20 or something. That said, I guess a human Fighter/Druid would just be a full druid with much broader access to weapons and gear while a human Ranger/Cleric would be a supreme divine caster. In Complete Addition, anyways, as I've said, Ranger Cleric requires an INI tweak to function like that in the enhanced edition. Thief/Mage works pretty darn well if you're allowing the Swashbuckler kit, but otherwise I don't see it bringing anything to the table that a fighter/mage wouldn't, especially given you've got a multiclass thief. I also don't see any shorties for the helm and I don't think you get HLAs even in the EE version...

But, again, it really doesn't matter. The Order of the Stick could pull off this campaign*, so you don't really need to worry too much about optimization.
*Who hasn't tried this? I'm actually curious.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Can I replace any of these with a dwarf? If only for equal Realms-folk representation?

I am aware that the story in IWD is much less subtle/much more straightforward than other D&D games, and I have played Storm of Zehir, so I do know a bit of what to expect, but I really want to make a good headcanon.

Also, am I right in my assesment that this takes place BEFORE the Time of Troubles, so some deities aren't there yet or stuff?

[Inarius]

Can I replace any of these with a dwarf? If only for equal Realms-folk representation?

I am aware that the story in IWD is much less subtle/much more straightforward than other D&D games, and I have played Storm of Zehir, so I do know a bit of what to expect, but I really want to make a good headcanon.

Also, am I right in my assesment that this takes place BEFORE the Time of Troubles, so some deities aren't there yet or stuff?

Yeah you can replace several of them with a dwarf, that's just sort of the recommended best way to go. You could make it your fighter/thief, replace your fighter/druid with a fighter/cleric, or drop down from ranger/cleric to go fighter/cleric. Or just swap out your fighter/thief for any other class really since 2 thieves aren't super necessary.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Is that for stat reasons or lore reasons? I don't know much about that part of the Sword Coast...

[Cheesegear]

Can I replace any of these with a dwarf? If only for equal Realms-folk representation?

You can play any race you want. The only thing in the game worth specifically picking a race for, is the Helm of the Trusted Defender, which you can get pretty early in the game.
I don't recall any other [race]-only items that are worth having.

So, yes. Make your party whatever you race you want. You're probably going to only play the game once, anyway. So you may as well make it interesting.


Also, am I right in my assesment that this takes place BEFORE the Time of Troubles, so some deities aren't there yet or stuff?

1281 DR.
Time of Troubles was 1358 DR.

[Inarius]

Is that for stat reasons or lore reasons? I don't know much about that part of the Sword Coast...

It's racial restrictions so lore technically. Dwarves if I remember right can only multiclass to fighter/cleric and fighter/thief in the IE games. The other option is just to pick a single class for your Dwarf and swap it for one of the suggested party members that least interests you.

As an example, for me personally I don't really like Bards so I usually do without. It's a great class and if you're looking to experience as much as you can in the game its really recommended but for me its just not my thing.

[Calemyr]

So, yes. Make your party whatever you race you want. You're probably going to only play the game once, anyway. So you may as well make it interesting.

This. This is something worth keeping in mind. As I've previously said, Icewind Dale is designed so that you can play it like Diablo, taking the same party through the game multiple times to rack up new loot and levels. Because of this, a lot of advice you'll receive is given with the "long game" in mind. The superiority of multi-class characters, for example. On your tenth run with the same party, you might be seeing single class rogues hit level 30 and stop improving, in effect no longer being worthwhile to play,, while a fighter/thief would still have room to grow. If you're only doing one run, however, you'll likely never see any cap in your growth no matter what you do. So pick the party you want to play. A helmet wearing midget is smart, yes, and a paladin has reliable access to a powerful weapon that will probably carry them most if not all of the game. Have a diverse combination of alignments, races, and classes, as some options and gear are restricted in one sense or another.

One detail I'd note about Neverwinter Nights 2 along this vein, though: If you're playing into epic levels (Mask of the Betrayer, Storm of Zehir), the first 20 levels matter when determining your attacks per round. If you hit level 20 with a 16+ Base Attack Bonus (BAB), you will do four attacks per round. If you hit level 20 with a 15 BAB, however, you will have three attacks per round for the rest of the game, even if you hit 16 BAB at level 21. Same goes for getting 3 attacks at 11 BAB. This only matters if you're multi-classing, and particularly if you're mixing second string fighters (like rogues, monks, and clerics, who get +3 BAB for every 4 levels). Not a major, game-breaking detail, I admit, but it can be useful to keep in mind when calculating your character build.

Actually, a second NWN2 detail worth noting, particularly for the main campaign, although patches might have changed this since: there's a weapon type in the game called the "universal sword". There's only one sword of this type in the game, and it's both quite powerful and very plot-centric. Everyone is proficient with a universal sword, but no weapon-specific feats (weapon focus, weapon specialization, improved critical, etc) are applicable to it. This is great if you want to be a sword-wielding wizard, but less so if you're a fighter dedicated to the long sword. I remember modding the game to reclassify mithril long swords as universal swords and universal swords as light weapons, allowing you to dual wield long swords without unnecessary penalty, but that's just me.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

This. This is something worth keeping in mind. As I've previously said, Icewind Dale is designed so that you can play it like Diablo, taking the same party through the game multiple times to rack up new loot and levels. Because of this, a lot of advice you'll receive is given with the "long game" in mind. The superiority of multi-class characters, for example. On your tenth run with the same party, you might be seeing single class rogues hit level 30 and stop improving, in effect no longer being worthwhile to play,, while a fighter/thief would still have room to grow. If you're only doing one run, however, you'll likely never see any cap in your growth no matter what you do. So pick the party you want to play. A helmet wearing midget is smart, yes, and a paladin has reliable access to a powerful weapon that will probably carry them most if not all of the game. Have a diverse combination of alignments, races, and classes, as some options and gear are restricted in one sense or another.
Yes, that IS my plan, I just wanted to know how to make sure I don't screw up making them and end up with a party that can't do all the sidequests in the game due to not having high enough CHA or INT or WIS to get all the conversation options. I don't want to take chances in that department.

One detail I'd note about Neverwinter Nights 2 along this vein, though: If you're playing into epic levels (Mask of the Betrayer, Storm of Zehir), the first 20 levels matter when determining your attacks per round. If you hit level 20 with a 16+ Base Attack Bonus (BAB), you will do four attacks per round. If you hit level 20 with a 15 BAB, however, you will have three attacks per round for the rest of the game, even if you hit 16 BAB at level 21. Same goes for getting 3 attacks at 11 BAB. This only matters if you're multi-classing, and particularly if you're mixing second string fighters (like rogues, monks, and clerics, who get +3 BAB for every 4 levels). Not a major, game-breaking detail, I admit, but it can be useful to keep in mind when calculating your character build.
Huh, good to know! Thank you!

Actually, a second NWN2 detail worth noting, particularly for the main campaign, although patches might have changed this since: there's a weapon type in the game called the "universal sword". There's only one sword of this type in the game, and it's both quite powerful and very plot-centric. Everyone is proficient with a universal sword, but no weapon-specific feats (weapon focus, weapon specialization, improved critical, etc) are applicable to it. This is great if you want to be a sword-wielding wizard, but less so if you're a fighter dedicated to the long sword. I remember modding the game to reclassify mithril long swords as universal swords and universal swords as light weapons, allowing you to dual wield long swords without unnecessary penalty, but that's just me.
I've played through NWN2's OC a few times, so I'm familiar with the Silver Sword of Gith. From what I understand, though, longsword weapon-specific feats count for the universal sword? :smallconfused:

[Calemyr]

I've played through NWN2's OC a few times, so I'm familiar with the Silver Sword of Gith. From what I understand, though, longsword weapon-specific feats count for the universal sword? :smallconfused:

As I said, patches may have fixed it since I last played, but I remember that being an issue. I remember there being a bit of noise about that, though, and a lot of mods fixing it, so I'm not surprised if they did fix it in a patch.

[Cheesegear]

Yes, that IS my plan, I just wanted to know how to make sure I don't screw up making them and end up with a party that can't do all the sidequests in the game due to not having high enough CHA or INT or WIS to get all the conversation options. I don't want to take chances in that department.

The big ones are...

Paladin (also handy because you also triple as a 'Warrior' and Cleric for the purposes of dialogue)
Bard
Druid

However, the 'class-specific' dialogue options drop off relatively immediately. I don't think there's any class or race-specific dialogue choices (and thus, rewards) after Chapter...2? The only thing that the class-specific dialogue choices are for is to boost your XP in the early game while it still matters. By the time you're level 6 or so, you wont miss the XP. Except that none of the dialogue choices are plot-relevant and you don't actually miss out on anything except a few thousand XP and a few non-specific gems.

For example, in the prologue, if you do the quest with a Bard, you can grab an extra 2500 XP or so. In the long run, that's nothing. Your party will still finish the game in the mid-to-late teens. However, in the beginning, that 3K XP is the difference between finishing the Prologue at Level 2, and finishing at Level 3.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

As I said, patches may have fixed it since I last played, but I remember that being an issue. I remember there being a bit of noise about that, though, and a lot of mods fixing it, so I'm not surprised if they did fix it in a patch.
I may also be looking for some mods against my better judgment, if only to make sure some bugged quests are fixed (looking at YOU, Nimbre in SoZ!).

Something I've been wondering, are there any assumptions about the parties in both Icewind Dales 1 and 2? I like the idea that one or two of the PCs in 2 are children of some of 1's PC's, but I'm not sure if there's any canon material that would contradict that. I do know that Icewind Dale 2 states that Icewind Dale 1's party wasn't local to the area and had come up from the south...

[Archpaladin Zousha]

So it appears that if I want to hew close to canon, I have to follow the Baldur's Gate novels and make a human fighter who romances Jaheira. I don't like that. :smallannoyed:

[Calemyr]

So it appears that if I want to hew close to canon, I have to follow the Baldur's Gate novels and make a human fighter who romances Jaheira. I don't like that. :smallannoyed:

Then don't. Play the combo you want.

Personally, my canon Abdel is a skald who romances Viconia and the dumbass fighter from the books is just the version the bards tell (resulting in Abdel outright despising bards on principle).

[Inarius]

So it appears that if I want to hew close to canon, I have to follow the Baldur's Gate novels and make a human fighter who romances Jaheira. I don't like that. :smallannoyed:

The thing about the "canon" books is that they're pretty incompatible with the games. They diverge wildly from the actual personalities of the companions in the games. Even the main character has a considerably different backstory so yeah feel free to absolutely ignore those books.

[Cheesegear]

Something I've been wondering, are there any assumptions about the parties in both Icewind Dales 1 and 2?

A lot of the encounters will assume that you have some ranged and some melee in the party. Icewind Dale uses terrain in combat...A lot.
The potentially hardest fight in the game is at the end of Chapter 2. The boss can only be hurt by specific weapons, and if your party's proficiency stars don't match up with the random loot you find, the fight can be very difficult when all your front-line warriors have -2 to hit, instead of +1. ...Hence, hold off on leveling up on levels that will give you a star, until you're sure you have the random loot on the map.


I like the idea that one or two of the PCs in 2 are children of some of 1's PC's...

The party in #2 comes from Luskan, for whatever reason is up to you.

[Winthur]

So it appears that if I want to hew close to canon, I have to follow the Baldur's Gate novels and make a human fighter who romances Jaheira. I don't like that. :smallannoyed:

For the love of God pretend the books do not exist at all unless you also want to justify Minsc with hair, Khalid getting wrecked by some spiders, Jaheira screwing the protagonist literally like 3 days afterwards, the protagonist being a murderhobo with the cognitive ability of a koala and some other unpalatable stuff like the Imoen lesbian grooming scenes (by Bodhi, if I recall that abomination properly). No such thing as Baldur's Gate canon when it comes to party compositions or virtually anything else. Your choices in BG1 aren't even reflected in BG2 very much, and the SoD tie-in that explains why you always travel with Khalid, Dynaheir, Minsc, Imoen and Jaheira is good effort but not necessarily sufficient. Make your own canon, I implore you.

[Calemyr]

For the love of God pretend the books do not exist at all unless you also want to justify Minsc with hair, Khalid getting wrecked by some spiders, Jaheira screwing the protagonist literally like 3 days afterwards, the protagonist being a murderhobo with the cognitive ability of a koala and some other unpalatable stuff like the Imoen lesbian grooming scenes (by Bodhi, if I recall that abomination properly). No such thing as Baldur's Gate canon when it comes to party compositions or virtually anything else. Your choices in BG1 aren't even reflected in BG2 very much, and the SoD tie-in that explains why you always travel with Khalid, Dynaheir, Minsc, Imoen and Jaheira is good effort but not necessarily sufficient. Make your own canon, I implore you.

There is a little more to the canonicity of Abdel than the books. The actual setting lore holds that the "last" Bhaalspawn was a human fighter named Abdel who retired from adventuring to get into government in Baldur's Gate. There he gets killed by the other "last" Bhaalspawn, Viekang (i.e. the teleporting coward you can save in Saradush), resulting in Bhaal's resurrection and reinstatement in the pantheon.

That said, don't limit yourself to that, particularly the fighter bit. Tell the "true" story of the Bhaalspawn, your version.

[Kish]

For the love of God pretend the books do not exist at all unless you also want to justify Minsc with hair, Khalid getting wrecked by some spiders, Jaheira screwing the protagonist literally like 3 days afterwards, the protagonist being a murderhobo with the cognitive ability of a koala and some other unpalatable stuff like the Imoen lesbian grooming scenes (by Bodhi, if I recall that abomination properly). No such thing as Baldur's Gate canon when it comes to party compositions or virtually anything else. Your choices in BG1 aren't even reflected in BG2 very much, and the SoD tie-in that explains why you always travel with Khalid, Dynaheir, Minsc, Imoen and Jaheira is good effort but not necessarily sufficient. Make your own canon, I implore you.
Pretty sure you're wasting your breath.

[Morty]

There is a little more to the canonicity of Abdel than the books. The actual setting lore holds that the "last" Bhaalspawn was a human fighter named Abdel who retired from adventuring to get into government in Baldur's Gate. There he gets killed by the other "last" Bhaalspawn, Viekang (i.e. the teleporting coward you can save in Saradush), resulting in Bhaal's resurrection and reinstatement in the pantheon.

That said, don't limit yourself to that, particularly the fighter bit. Tell the "true" story of the Bhaalspawn, your version.

Isn't the book-Abdel an elf, though? Besides, "human fighter" has always been the franchise's version of a blank slate labelled "insert appropriate".

[Kish]

No, he's a (half-human, half-god) fighter.

That said, I'm pretty sure Bhaal stays dead forever, in "canon."

Edit: I was wrong because I didn't look at 5ed sources before posting that. 5ed brought him back. You can never have too many deities, apparently. *checks* They brought Myrkul back too. This is, I suppose, good once they'd already brought back Bane and Bhaal; it would be unfair to leave poor Myrkul actually dead.

[Calemyr]

No, he's a (half-human, half-god) fighter.

That said, I'm pretty sure Bhaal stays dead forever, in "canon."

Edit: I was wrong because I didn't look at 5ed sources before posting that. 5ed brought him back. You can never have too many deities, apparently. *checks* They brought Myrkul back too. This is, I suppose, good once they'd already brought back Bane and Bhaal; it would be unfair to leave poor Myrkul actually dead.

Yep. He was resurrected in an early 5th edition promo campaign, "Murder in Baldur's Gate". I only know the cliff notes for it, but it sounded like a pretty cool campaign. I tried like hell to get my hands on a copy of that when I was a DM at my local game store, but never quite pulled it off.

[Ak5520]

Can I replace any of these with a dwarf? If only for equal Realms-folk representation?

I am aware that the story in IWD is much less subtle/much more straightforward than other D&D games (https://phaseradar.com/gaming/), and I have played Storm of Zehir, so I do know a bit of what to expect, but I really want to make a good headcanon.

Also, am I right in my assesment that this takes place BEFORE the Time of Troubles, so some deities aren't there yet or stuff?

I have same question can admin help me

[Calemyr]

Can I replace any of these with a dwarf? If only for equal Realms-folk representation?

I am aware that the story in IWD is much less subtle/much more straightforward than other D&D games, and I have played Storm of Zehir, so I do know a bit of what to expect, but I really want to make a good headcanon.

Also, am I right in my assesment that this takes place BEFORE the Time of Troubles, so some deities aren't there yet or stuff?


I have same question can admin help me

A good headcanon for Icewind Dale? It's simple, really. Six individuals, each with their own motivations and goals, find themselves in the "town" (if you can call it that) of Easthaven, visiting the local inn at the same time. Looking to drum up some work, earn some coin, do some good, or just kill some things without getting in trouble with the guard, they decide to party up (because that's how adventurers do it) and pick up jobs from the locals. Most of the jobs are nice and straightforward, but every once in a while they stumble on something bigger, and these little discoveries begin to mount and pull them into an adventure they didn't start, but it now falls on them to conclude. Yesterday, they were six strangers talking over a meal. Today, they're six friends trusting each other with their lives (or not, as the case may be). Tomorrow? Who knows. But these six strangers will decide fates far greater than they'd imagined in that dingy backwater bar...

[Kish]

Oh, do we offer obvious spam bots computer game advice now? They won't use it.

(Ak5520, not Zousha.)

[Calemyr]

Oh, do we offer obvious spam bots computer game advice now? They won't use it.

(Ak5520, not Zousha.)

Ha! Now don't I feel silly.

[JadedDM]

So it appears that if I want to hew close to canon, I have to follow the Baldur's Gate novels and make a human fighter who romances Jaheira. I don't like that. :smallannoyed:

You'll also need some way to give Minsc red hair, turn Khalid into a wife-beater, make Xan into a thief, and remove all references to Dynaheir and Imoen entirely. (But seriously, there is nothing 'canon' about the awful BG novel whatsoever.)

[J-H]

There is a little more to the canonicity of Abdel than the books. The actual setting lore holds that the "last" Bhaalspawn was a human fighter named Abdel who retired from adventuring to get into government in Baldur's Gate. There he gets killed by the other "last" Bhaalspawn, Viekang (i.e. the teleporting coward you can save in Saradush), resulting in Bhaal's resurrection and reinstatement in the pantheon.

What? That little teleporting piecea.... wow.

I liked the (fanfic) Adrian who was working with the Zhentarim a lot better!

[Varen_Tai]

Is this thread related to the fact that Fanatical just posted a bundle sale where you can get the entire EE set (all six games) for $30?

As a side note, P:T really is one of the greatest RPGs of all time. You should all totally play it.

[Cheesegear]

So I went through an old party creating guide 'for story' that I wrote whenever I want to play IWD again...
This is the party you need to have access to every dialogue choice (and thus, rewards and XP) in the game, as I know that's important to Zousha, even in a game as story-thin as IWD.

Easthaven
Bard (gem)
Bard Non-trivial amount of XP, especially at Level 1
Halfling/Gnome/Dwarf (minor item, for fun, mostly)
Dwarf* This one matters!
INT 15 and CHA 14. This quest can be done another way. But you can solve it immediately through dialogue.

Kuldahar Pass
Druid This quest can be done another way. But you can solve it immediately through dialogue.
Evil Priest This dialogue will **** up the quest. Do it for a laugh. Reload and talk using someone else. Or...Just don't bother.

Kuldahar
Druid (XP and gem)
Non-Evil Priest (Cleric or Paladin; XP)
Warrior or Priest (Cleric, Fighter, Ranger or Paladin; XP and gem)
These are not mutually exclusive, you just have to talk to three different non-named NPCs.

Tomb of Shadows
Druid or Good Priest (Cleric or Paladin) - Non-trival amount of XP.

Dragon's Eye
Non-Lawful INT 13+,
INT 15+,
or Paladin One or more of these choices solves the quest a lot faster than doing it the normal way.

Lower Dorn's Deep
Halfling, or, INT and CHA 12+ Makes one fight a bit easier later on.
Female, or, Female CHA 15+ Gives you access to a special shop...Or for even cheaper. Unsurprisingly, the shopkeeper's name is Dirty Llew.
Bard Makes one fight particularly easier.
INT 13+ Lets you skip a particularly difficult fight...But why would you?

Easthaven (again!)
*Dwarf If you didn't do it the first time, you don't get to do it the second time.

I'm pretty sure that's everything. I've played the game a lot...But I don't think I've done everything.

EDIT:
In case you didn't want to read that, in order for every quest reward in the game to be available, you must have...

Human Paladin
Human Fighter 6 - Druid, or Half-Elf Fighter/Druid.
Dwarf Fighter/Cleric - You're already going to take a Fighter/Thief in the form of a Halfling.
Halfling Fighter/Thief - because there aren't any other multi-class options and it's the Dwarf who has the choice.
Half-Elf Bard*

* Additionally, make the Bard female, and make sure she has INT 15+, and CHA 15+.

Your sixth slot can be anything you want, it doesn't matter the race or class combo. My suggestion is some kind of Mage (if you want one extra dialogue choice that ruins a sidequest, I'd go with an Evil Cleric/Mage). If you followed that, you'll have every race and class combo necessary to 'complete' the game. It doesn't actually matter what class the Halfling and Dwarf are...But those would be the best classes for them.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Whoa, LOTS of responses I haven't been able to reply to with this busy week! Okay, getting back into it, and thank you all for the advice and support! :smalleek:

You'll also need some way to give Minsc red hair, turn Khalid into a wife-beater, make Xan into a thief, and remove all references to Dynaheir and Imoen entirely. (But seriously, there is nothing 'canon' about the awful BG novel whatsoever.)
Which is why, as I said, I don't like that. I don't understand WHY they decided to make those effectively canon by using Abdel Adrian, and including name-dropping him in later books like Waterdeep: Dragon Heist and stuff. :smallannoyed:

No, he's a (half-human, half-god) fighter.

That said, I'm pretty sure Bhaal stays dead forever, in "canon."

Edit: I was wrong because I didn't look at 5ed sources before posting that. 5ed brought him back. You can never have too many deities, apparently. *checks* They brought Myrkul back too. This is, I suppose, good once they'd already brought back Bane and Bhaal; it would be unfair to leave poor Myrkul actually dead.
This actually makes me madder than the whole thing about Bhaal coming back, as I've played MotB before and you can CLEARLY kill Myrkul for good there, so I feel just as invalidated as people who've played ToB and got rid of Bhaal's essence. :smallmad:

Not to mention Klauth is described as being alive and well in Storm King's Thunder, when in Neverwinter Nights he may clearly be killed by the PC! Part of me wonders if WotC was just DEAD SET on invalidating EVERYTHING in the games, since almost every BBEG you've been able to kill in the games is alive and well in Post-Sundering Faerun! :smallfurious:

A good headcanon for Icewind Dale? It's simple, really. Six individuals, each with their own motivations and goals, find themselves in the "town" (if you can call it that) of Easthaven, visiting the local inn at the same time. Looking to drum up some work, earn some coin, do some good, or just kill some things without getting in trouble with the guard, they decide to party up (because that's how adventurers do it) and pick up jobs from the locals. Most of the jobs are nice and straightforward, but every once in a while they stumble on something bigger, and these little discoveries begin to mount and pull them into an adventure they didn't start, but it now falls on them to conclude. Yesterday, they were six strangers talking over a meal. Today, they're six friends trusting each other with their lives (or not, as the case may be). Tomorrow? Who knows. But these six strangers will decide fates far greater than they'd imagined in that dingy backwater bar...
Thank you. I did gather that much from what I've been researching, but wanted to confirm any sort of "baked-in assumptions" like "Your PCs are not local, and have come up here from other places," so I knew where to start each one's backstory and not contradict those assumptions, much like how NWN2 begins with the assumptions that you're an orphan who's been raised by Daeghun in West Harbor.

Oh, do we offer obvious spam bots computer game advice now? They won't use it.

(Ak5520, not Zousha.)
*Ahem* Yes, quite correct. Beep boop. :smalltongue:

So I went through an old party creating guide 'for story' that I wrote whenever I want to play IWD again...
This is the party you need to have access to every dialogue choice (and thus, rewards and XP) in the game, as I know that's important to Zousha, even in a game as story-thin as IWD.

Easthaven
Bard (gem)
Bard Non-trivial amount of XP, especially at Level 1
Halfling/Gnome/Dwarf (minor item, for fun, mostly)
Dwarf* This one matters!
INT 15 and CHA 14. This quest can be done another way. But you can solve it immediately through dialogue.

Kuldahar Pass
Druid This quest can be done another way. But you can solve it immediately through dialogue.
Evil Priest This dialogue will **** up the quest. Do it for a laugh. Reload and talk using someone else. Or...Just don't bother.

Kuldahar
Druid (XP and gem)
Non-Evil Priest (Cleric or Paladin; XP)
Warrior or Priest (Cleric, Fighter, Ranger or Paladin; XP and gem)
These are not mutually exclusive, you just have to talk to three different non-named NPCs.

Tomb of Shadows
Druid or Good Priest (Cleric or Paladin) - Non-trival amount of XP.

Dragon's Eye
Non-Lawful INT 13+,
INT 15+,
or Paladin One or more of these choices solves the quest a lot faster than doing it the normal way.

Lower Dorn's Deep
Halfling, or, INT and CHA 12+ Makes one fight a bit easier later on.
Female, or, Female CHA 15+ Gives you access to a special shop...Or for even cheaper. Unsurprisingly, the shopkeeper's name is Dirty Llew.
Bard Makes one fight particularly easier.
INT 13+ Lets you skip a particularly difficult fight...But why would you?

Easthaven (again!)
*Dwarf If you didn't do it the first time, you don't get to do it the second time.

I'm pretty sure that's everything. I've played the game a lot...But I don't think I've done everything.

EDIT:
In case you didn't want to read that, in order for every quest reward in the game to be available, you must have...

Human Paladin
Human Fighter 6 - Druid, or Half-Elf Fighter/Druid.
Dwarf Fighter/Cleric - You're already going to take a Fighter/Thief in the form of a Halfling.
Halfling Fighter/Thief - because there aren't any other multi-class options and it's the Dwarf who has the choice.
Half-Elf Bard*

* Additionally, make the Bard female, and make sure she has INT 15+, and CHA 15+.

Your sixth slot can be anything you want, it doesn't matter the race or class combo. My suggestion is some kind of Mage (if you want one extra dialogue choice that ruins a sidequest, I'd go with an Evil Cleric/Mage). If you followed that, you'll have every race and class combo necessary to 'complete' the game. It doesn't actually matter what class the Halfling and Dwarf are...But those would be the best classes for them.
This is INCREDIBLY helpful, thank you Cheesegear! :smallsmile:

It appears that, as there's room for one more in that lineup, I can include a mage of some sort, since that seems to be the only thing not accounted for...now I just have to figure out if I want to go with something like a Full Elf for that, or do something else...A mage/cleric? A fighter/mage? A fighter/mage/thief? Gnome? Go REALLY crazy and try to make a mage from something NOT suited for Magery? Also, does Icewind Dale take place BEFORE or AFTER the events of The Crystal Shard? Is Drizz't active in the area already? I know he is later, since you can meet him (and even fight him if you're a jerk) in Baldur's Gate. How much of Drizz't's history is intertwined with the Icewind Dale region? How many books do I have to read before I get started?

[JadedDM]

Icewind Dale comes first. It takes place in 1281 DR. The Crystal Shard starts in 1351 DR. I don't think Drizzt went to the surface until around 1340 DR, so he would not have been active during the game.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Icewind Dale comes first. It takes place in 1281 DR. The Crystal Shard starts in 1351 DR. I don't think Drizzt went to the surface until around 1340 DR, so he would not have been active during the game.
I see! Thank you!

Okay, so I'm starting to get a framework in mind as to who these people might be:

While most aspects of this character are straightforward, I can't decide if I want this character to be male or female, as both can be a bit...stereotypical. You have the Knights of the Round Table and the original paladins of Charlemagne, as well as Casavir and Keldorn for dudes, and Bradamante, Iomedae and Aribeth for gals. I'm also unsure as to which deity they should follow. Tyr seems obvious, given that's the deity mentioned in Pale Justice's backstory, but Helm fits well with the idea of protecting Easthaven from danger and it'd be interestingly ironic if a Helmite took up a weapon that initially proved itself against the gaudy blade of another Helmite, and Torm is literally the GOD of paladinhood, so naturally he'd be perfect, especially if the character's backstory is "I'm just doing what paladins DO." I'm not sure where this character should be FROM either. Should they be local to the Sword Coast or hail from some other land, like Calimshan or even Chult?
Who are the paladin deities there?
The hardest part definitely is whether I want this person to be a human or half-elf: either way it'll be doubling up, whether with the Paladin or the Bard...and I'm not sure if they should be a Silvanus kind of druid or a Chauntea kind of druid. Plus, I'm not sure what weaponry they should consider. Staves? Sickles? Scimitars?
I'm inclined to make this character a girl, since there's never enough girl dwarves, though at the same time, I don't want to be lazy and just write her as a typical dwarf without a beard. As for her deity, my first instinct is Moradin, the default god for dwarves, but that, again, seems lazy. I know at least ONE dwarf in Forgotten Realms worships a non-dwarven god (Khelgar Ironfist in NWN2 starts out worshiping Clangeddin Silverbeard but switches to Tyr if you complete his quest and he becomes a monk), but at the same time part of me worries the non-human pantheons don't get enough spotlight. In addition, do I go the obvious route and give them a warhammer, or pick a different blunt weapon like a mace or a staff, to be more "priestly" and less "dwarfy?"
I'm thinking this character will probably be a woman, though I'm not sure as I don't want to just copy Mazzy Fentan, but on the other hand, most famous halflings both in D&D lore and their original inspiration in Tolkien are dudes. I'm also not sure what weaponry this character should go for. Short swords seem too obvious, but I don't imagine anyone else in the group USING such weapons.
This one is relatively easy, as Cheesegear already suggested their gender and having at least an INT and CHA of 15 each. I'm curious as to how the rest of her stats should be arranged as, like I said in my original post, AD&D's rules still seem fairly arcane to me, and I'm not sure just HOW to build a good Bard. I'm pondering maybe having her be the one who gets Aihonen, since the Paladin will be using Pale Justice, and I know Bards can use long swords too. As far as her backstory goes, I'm not sure if she should be a first-generation crossing between an elf and human, or second-generation between a pair of half-elves...

And of course, I need to pick the final party member. My initial thought was an elf fighter/mage/thief or possible just fighter/mage, using bows, to be a kind of "arcane archer" even though that concept technically doesn't show up until 3e with prestige classes. But at the same time, that may just be TOO stereotypical of what's expected of elves. Plus, it leaves half-orcs unavailable, and they're interesting too, but they can't be mages in AD&D.

What do you fine folks think or recommend? Or am I overthinking this?

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/022/524/tumblr_o16n2kBlpX1ta3qyvo1_1280.jpg

[Inarius]

Thats a pretty good setup, for your last slot I would probably recommend either a fighter dualed to mage or figher/mage that uses bows. There are some pretty solid bows in the game so not having an archer would be a shame. It will also help a bit with the early game when ranged attacks are king and you have a really limited spell pool.

As far as the rest goes, I could see the Paladin being a follower of Tyr seeking out the sword specifically to return it to their order and sort of just getting tangled up in the whole ordeal.

With the fighter/cleric you should have enough pips at level one to specialize in both hammers and maces and I would recommend you do so then work on flails just to cover your bases since the loot is fairly randomized. If you want to do a dwarven deity but not have it be Moradin you could do Haela Brightaxe a goddess of battle who seeks to cleanse evil from Faerun. For a non dwarven deity you could consider Tempus if only to headcannon a tie to the main quest.

For your Druid, you could make them a Silvanus Druid since Kuldahar was originally planted by Silvanus. You could make it like a pilgrimage or a return to home for the Druid. As for gear I remember there being some good spears and staves in the game but cant really remember if there were any good scimitars.

For your Bard since you're going to have high cha and int you might consider making them ranged and just focus the rest of your points into dex. If you go melee you'll have to have a really good stat roll to get decent str, dex and con which are all important for melee classes. I'd probably start them off with a pip in bows then add to melee weapons later on down the road once gear and buffs can make up for your melee stat deficiencies.

Also I wouldn't worry about copying Mazzy, she was basically designed to be as close to a Halfling Paladin as possible with her bonus abilities so being a sneakier fighter/thief won't really make you a clone of her.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Thats a pretty good setup, for your last slot I would probably recommend either a fighter dualed to mage or figher/mage that uses bows. There are some pretty solid bows in the game so not having an archer would be a shame. It will also help a bit with the early game when ranged attacks are king and you have a really limited spell pool.

As far as the rest goes, I could see the Paladin being a follower of Tyr seeking out the sword specifically to return it to their order and sort of just getting tangled up in the whole ordeal.

With the fighter/cleric you should have enough pips at level one to specialize in both hammers and maces and I would recommend you do so then work on flails just to cover your bases since the loot is fairly randomized. If you want to do a dwarven deity but not have it be Moradin you could do Haela Brightaxe a goddess of battle who seeks to cleanse evil from Faerun. For a non dwarven deity you could consider Tempus if only to headcannon a tie to the main quest.

For your Druid, you could make them a Silvanus Druid since Kuldahar was originally planted by Silvanus. You could make it like a pilgrimage or a return to home for the Druid. As for gear I remember there being some good spears and staves in the game but cant really remember if there were any good scimitars.

For your Bard since you're going to have high cha and int you might consider making them ranged and just focus the rest of your points into dex. If you go melee you'll have to have a really good stat roll to get decent str, dex and con which are all important for melee classes. I'd probably start them off with a pip in bows then add to melee weapons later on down the road once gear and buffs can make up for your melee stat deficiencies.

Also I wouldn't worry about copying Mazzy, she was basically designed to be as close to a Halfling Paladin as possible with her bonus abilities so being a sneakier fighter/thief won't really make you a clone of her.
Thank you for the advice! :smallsmile:

Are there dwarves who worship Tempus? I was considering that, since I know there's a Temple of Tempus in the game, but wasn't sure if dwarves preferred their own gods...I mean, those deities are in the books for a REASON, right? :smallconfused:

On an unrelated note, it turns out I still had NWN2: Complete on my GOG.com account from when I purchased it for my old computer, so score! I don't have to buy it again! But now that I've reinstalled it I'm having a technical issue with the graphics: when I try to change the resolution I just get a black square in the upper left corner of varying sizes depending on the resolution I picked, and I'm not sure how to get it to one appropriate to my widescreen monitor...:smallredface:

[Inarius]

Thank you for the advice! :smallsmile:

Are there dwarves who worship Tempus? I was considering that, since I know there's a Temple of Tempus in the game, but wasn't sure if dwarves preferred their own gods...I mean, those deities are in the books for a REASON, right? :smallconfused:

On an unrelated note, it turns out I still had NWN2: Complete on my GOG.com account from when I purchased it for my old computer, so score! I don't have to buy it again! But now that I've reinstalled it I'm having a technical issue with the graphics: when I try to change the resolution I just get a black square in the upper left corner of varying sizes depending on the resolution I picked, and I'm not sure how to get it to one appropriate to my widescreen monitor...:smallredface:

Are there Dwarves who worship Tempus? Probably. Are there a lot of Dwarves who do it? Probably not. Generally speaking Dwarves do tend to prefer their own pantheon but that doesn't mean that your particular dwarf character is one of them. Maybe they were saved by someone who worshiped Tempus at a young age and feel they owe a debt, maybe they were an orphan and raised by humans, maybe they're just an odd dwarf and a bit of a pariah among their own kind. Basically you can justify it any number of ways you want if you want to worship a non dwarven diety.

[Kish]

I'd just like to point out that "Are there dwarves who worship Tempus?" and "[Do] dwarves [prefer] their own gods?" are radically different questions.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I suppose a better question to ask would be "How much explanation would I have to write to justify why a non-human character would worship human deities, as opposed to one of their own racial pantheon?" And a follow-up would be "Which is better writing?"

EDIT: I think I've gotten most of my half-elf bard figured out: her name's Bethrynna Falone, or "Beth" for short. Her dad was a Turami mercenary and I haven't quite figured out the details of her mom yet, but most likely an elf scholar of some sort. She got a hands-on education in swordcraft from her dad and magecraft from her mom, and while she loves them, she has ambitions greater than gold or knowledge, namely to be a hero, which, for Beth, is simply taking the skills she's learned and applying them to heroic stuff, hacking and charming monsters instead of enemy soldiers. I'm sort of thinking that, given her high CHA, she'll probably be one of the party's original founders, maybe even their leader. I'm not sure where in the Realms she should have started her career in, or where her parents met, which is why her dad is a mercenary...

What would you folks suggest to improve Bethrynna's story and ground it more in Faerun? Thanks in advance!

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I'm making the characters now so they're set up and I can hammer their backstories out. What are the weapon types I should consider for the halfing fighter/thief? Is there any specific weapon restrictions on their backstab? At the moment, the party's shaping up to be rather...sword intensive, the only one not having a sword of some sort being the dwarf fighter/cleric, who naturally can't use them.

And also, should I ask setting-based questions in the Roleplaying section? I don't want to spam this thread or annoy people. :smallredface:

[Winthur]

Is there any specific weapon restrictions on their backstab?


In Infinity Engine games, the only weapons a Thief can backstab with are weapons on the thief list of weapons. So even though a Fighter/Thief can use a Halberd, a Halberd is not a Thief weapon so he won't benefit from using it. In vanilla IWD, you will be able to therefore backstab with long swords, short swords, scimitars, daggers, clubs and quarterstaves. IWDEE adds Katanas and some Scimitar subtypes. Generally, you want to pick a weapon with the biggest damage dice for backstabbing.

In BG2, with the Use Any Item ability that allows you to equip any item you find in the game, any Thief is capable of wielding [class]-only weapons but won't be able to backstab with them even if the weapon type fits. So, the Monk-only Scarlet Ninja-To can't backstab even though Thieves can use Ninja-To.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

In Infinity Engine games, the only weapons a Thief can backstab with are weapons on the thief list of weapons. So even though a Fighter/Thief can use a Halberd, a Halberd is not a Thief weapon so he won't benefit from using it. In vanilla IWD, you will be able to therefore backstab with long swords, short swords, scimitars, daggers, clubs and quarterstaves. IWDEE adds Katanas and some Scimitar subtypes. Generally, you want to pick a weapon with the biggest damage dice for backstabbing.

In BG2, with the Use Any Item ability that allows you to equip any item you find in the game, any Thief is capable of wielding [class]-only weapons but won't be able to backstab with them even if the weapon type fits. So, the Monk-only Scarlet Ninja-To can't backstab even though Thieves can use Ninja-To.
I see. So, I should probably go for short swords or scimitars, since the paladin and bard get first pick on longswords, and halfling deities like short swords anyway. Should I get them a shield or dual-wield? I'm leaning towards shield, since if I use scimitars I'll essentially be a mini-Drizzt, and that's ridiculous...:smalltongue:

[Cheesegear]

I see. So, I should probably go for short swords or scimitars, since the paladin and bard get first pick on longswords, and halfling deities like short swords anyway. Should I get them a shield or dual-wield?

Neither?
I despise Dual-Wielding in IWD1 and BG1.
If you've got a Shield, you can't use a Bow. With a Halfling's potential 19 DEX - esp. if Thief as well - why wouldn't you use a Bow?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Is that worth giving up backstabbing? Can I get away with being a thief and not backstabbing? I thought that was, like THE LAW! or something. :smallconfused:

[Calemyr]

Is that worth giving up backstabbing? Can I get away with being a thief and not backstabbing? I thought that was, like THE LAW! or something. :smallconfused:

I would classify backstab as "very effective, but fiddly to use well and not essential". You put a thief in a position to backstab, you can do a lot of damage, enough to render even difficult fights pretty trivial. However, a good backstab multiplier typically comes with a lackluster THAC0 so it's no kind of guarantee even with the bonus of attacking from stealth, and you need to rely on invisibility effects if you want a second crack stab at it (unless you're a shadowdancer, and they get reduced multipliers). In the end, the games are balanced to not require backstab so they are kinda wasted. It's not unlike one of the arguments against wild mages and their random caster level modifier: when it gives you a positive modifier, the benefit it gains you is trivial unless you're already boxing outside of your weight class while a negative modifier can put you on a bad footing even against fights that should be trivial.

Generally, if you want to use it effectively, you are pretty much going to have to metagame and cue up a backstab before the fight even begins. If you're playing that kind of game, though, you might as well stealth into the middle of an upcoming fight, drop a gem or potion to mark an ideal position, and then use your mages to carpetbomb that site with aoe spells (fireballs, cloudburst, tangling vines, stinking cloud, etc). But maybe that's just me.

So, yeah, it's very powerful, but rarely enough of a game-changer to be worth the required setup. As a result, I'd take Swashbuckler over a typical thief any day of the week, just because the offensive and defensive innates will pay off far more regularly in the long run.

Added note: One of my favorite old tricks in BG2 was giving Imoen the Staff of the Magi and letting her use its innate invisibility to backstab practically at will. EE removes the weapon from the list of backstab-capable weapons, however, so that's now off the table. The "invisibility on equip" effect of the staff can still be really handy for a mage/thief, though.


Neither?
I despise Dual-Wielding in IWD1 and BG1.
If you've got a Shield, you can't use a Bow. With a Halfling's potential 19 DEX - esp. if Thief as well - why wouldn't you use a Bow?

One perk of v2.5+ of the EE games is a feature they implemented for Siege of Dragonspear: off-hand gear is only applicable if it can be used. For example, you can equip twin daggers as well as a bow, at the same time. When you equip the bow, the dagger in your off hand is inactive - providing no advantages or disadvantages save for sitting in an otherwise unusable slot in your inventory. Switch back to the dagger and you're dual wielding again without having to screw with your equipment layout. It's a welcome change from when you couldn't equip a two handed weapon if your off hand was in use.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

So would using a bow as well as a scimitar and shield work for this halfling, switching as necessary?

[Calemyr]

So would using a bow as well as a scimitar and shield work for this halfling, switching as necessary?

Yup. Scimitar in weapon slot 1, bow in weapon slot 2, shield in off hand. Use weapon slot 1 and you've got scimitar and shield. Use weapon slot 2 and you've got a bow. Simple and easy.

Just did a quick check on my phone. IWDEE does it fine with a longsword, crossbow, and shield. Same with dual-wielding.

Also worth noting: IWDEE does allow shaman. Shamans are kinda interesting. Light armor, limited but diverse weapons (including axe and shortbow), spontaneous casting of druid spells plus a couple extra, and built in detect illusions thief skill, kinda like how the ranger has built in stealth and bard has built in pickpockets. Dance is a so-so ability: it summons uncontrollable spirit creatures to fight for you. They're not strong, you can't do anything else at all while dancing, and there's only a chance one'll be summoned each round, but an infinite stream of cannon fodder isn't a horrible side bonus. If you wanted to try the class out, IWD would be a pretty good place to do it.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Yup. Scimitar in weapon slot 1, bow in weapon slot 2, shield in off hand. Use weapon slot 1 and you've got scimitar and shield. Use weapon slot 2 and you've got a bow. Simple and easy.

Just did a quick check on my phone. IWDEE does it fine with a longsword, crossbow, and shield. Same with dual-wielding.
Sounds good! I almost forgot, how should I distribute the Thief skills (Pick Pockets, Open Locks, etc.)? I'm so used to the 3e model of having skill ranks and just making sure those are maxed at each level, but that's clearly not how it works here.

Also worth noting: IWDEE does allow shaman. Shamans are kinda interesting. Light armor, limited but diverse weapons (including axe and shortbow), spontaneous casting of druid spells plus a couple extra, and built in detect illusions thief skill, kinda like how the ranger has built in stealth and bard has built in pickpockets. Dance is a so-so ability: it summons uncontrollable spirit creatures to fight for you. They're not strong, you can't do anything else at all while dancing, and there's only a chance one'll be summoned each round, but an infinite stream of cannon fodder isn't a horrible side bonus. If you wanted to try the class out, IWD would be a pretty good place to do it.
I see...I'm tempted, but at the moment I only had room for one additional character in the party and no wizard yet, so they kind of took priority. I may use it in a future playthrough should I come back to IWDEE...

[Cheesegear]

Sounds good! I almost forgot, how should I distribute the Thief skills (Pick Pockets, Open Locks, etc.)?

Get your Find Traps to 100 ASAP. After that should come Open Locks. Traps start very early on in the game, and they don't let up. Most Locks in the beginning can be forced by anyone with decent STR, by the time they can't, your Lockpick should be in the high 80s or so.

...I just don't know when you'd find the time to get Hide in Shadows to Backstab anyway. :smallconfused:
As previous poster said, by the time you can afford to HiS (especially if you only have one Thief), your Wizards can cast Fireball.

Your Bard (and Quick-Load) has Pick Pocketing covered, especially if you're Half-Elf for the +10% ...Which is the only reason your Bard is a Half-Elf to begin with.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I see! That should cover the mechanical aspects. Now I just need to hammer out their backstories...then on to the easy part: ACTUALLY PLAYING THE GAME. :smallredface:

[Cheesegear]

Okay. Final post before I've contributed everything I can about Icewind Dale 1 party creation;

Paladin; At some point, get 2-stars in Long Swords. You can safely start CharGen with Two-Handed Swords or Bastard Swords (there are lots of good ones). Be aware that you will transition to a Shield or Dual-Wielding at some point.

Fighter/Druid; If you're going Dual-Class, remember to make your alignment True Neutral. Get 3 or 4 stars (depending on Fighter 3, or Fighter 6) in Scimitars or Clubs. Or, stars in Quarterstaves or Spears. However you're going to roll. If you're going Half-Elf Multi-Class...Don't worry about it - you wont have to 'remember' to limit yourself because the game will do it for you.

Fighter/Cleric; You'll definitely want Hammers or Maces. There are a number of good Flails in the game, too. In any case, the game will limit your options for you. Don't forget about Slings.

Fighter/Thief; Anything you want...And a Bow. Since you're a Fighter, you're not limited to Short Bows, and that helps a lot for taking out opposing spellcasters. Or you could Backstab them with -4 to hit. Don't you have 19 DEX? :smallsigh:

Bard; One-handed weapons are useful. You can buy a item that goes in your shield slot early on in the game - Lyre of Progression. It gives you +2 Level 2 spells, and +1 Level 3 spell. It's very useful. Additionally, early on, in a fixed location, there is a Returning Throwing Axe +2. So, at character generation, you can start with Slings. But pretty soon switch over to Axes once you get the weapon.

As I said earlier, your sixth slot is up to you. I'd go Fighter/Mage or Mage/Thief. The latter especially if you want to pick up some of the slack so your first Thief can Backstab while your second Thief gets to 100 in Open Locks so your first Thief can focus on HiS after getting 100 on Find Traps...In fact, yeah. Find Traps while Hiding is very useful in many parts of the game.

When Icewind Dale 2 comes up, we get to do it all again!

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Okay. Final post before I've contributed everything I can about Icewind Dale 1 party creation;

Paladin; At some point, get 2-stars in Long Swords. You can safely start CharGen with Two-Handed Swords or Bastard Swords (there are lots of good ones). Be aware that you will transition to a Shield or Dual-Wielding at some point.

Fighter/Druid; If you're going Dual-Class, remember to make your alignment True Neutral. Get 3 or 4 stars (depending on Fighter 3, or Fighter 6) in Scimitars or Clubs. Or, stars in Quarterstaves or Spears. However you're going to roll. If you're going Half-Elf Multi-Class...Don't worry about it - you wont have to 'remember' to limit yourself because the game will do it for you.

Fighter/Cleric; You'll definitely want Hammers or Maces. There are a number of good Flails in the game, too. In any case, the game will limit your options for you. Don't forget about Slings.

Fighter/Thief; Anything you want...And a Bow. Since you're a Fighter, you're not limited to Short Bows, and that helps a lot for taking out opposing spellcasters. Or you could Backstab them with -4 to hit. Don't you have 19 DEX? :smallsigh:

Bard; One-handed weapons are useful. You can buy a item that goes in your shield slot early on in the game - Lyre of Progression. It gives you +2 Level 2 spells, and +1 Level 3 spell. It's very useful. Additionally, early on, in a fixed location, there is a Returning Throwing Axe +2. So, at character generation, you can start with Slings. But pretty soon switch over to Axes once you get the weapon.

As I said earlier, your sixth slot is up to you. I'd go Fighter/Mage or Mage/Thief. The latter especially if you want to pick up some of the slack so your first Thief can Backstab while your second Thief gets to 100 in Open Locks so your first Thief can focus on HiS after getting 100 on Find Traps...In fact, yeah. Find Traps while Hiding is very useful in many parts of the game.

When Icewind Dale 2 comes up, we get to do it all again!
This is INCREDIBLY helpful! Thank you, Cheesegear!:smallsmile: