Monk [fix]

[Yakk]

A> Monks are a full BaB class. Flurry of Blows only generates a -1 to hit at all levels.

B> Monks may move their "extra distance" even when doing a full-attack. This movement may occur before, during or after any other actions during the turn.

C> Monks may move adjacent to a vertical wall or other similar structure (tree, cliff, etc) as if they where balanced on the ground up to their safe-fall distance per round. Moving upwards requires twice as much safe-fall distance and twice as much movement. At the end of their movement for the turn they must be on solid ground or otherwise supported or they will fall, however.

D> Attacks during a flurry of blows add up for the purpose of defeating DR or hardness.

E> If the monk hits on an attack of opportunity, she may burn another attack of opportunity to attack the same target again at -5 (cumulative). She may do this as many times as she has bonus attacks from her Flurry of Blows. This sequence of attacks is considered to be a Flurry of Blows for the purpose of penetrating DR/Hardness.

Reasoning:
A> Monks shouldn't suck at hitting things with their fists.

B> This provides a unique advantage to Monks, and lets them leverage both their extra movement and their flurry ability.

C> Wall running is, well, just fun.

D> As it stood, monks had serious problems defeating DR. By letting the flurry stack, a monk can build up enough damage to get through the DR, without making getting special weapons pointless.

E> As part of <D>, the monk needs multiple attacks to get through DR.

Thoughts?

[Dullyanna]

I like it. A lot, in fact. Their lack of mobility + inability to hit/hurt things has always bugged me. Maybe they should get a bonus to disarm, trip, and grapple (It makes sense fluff-wise, at least to me).

Edit: Finding a way to make them less MAD would help, too.

[Xenoti]

interesting, I like the concept. For the Dr couldnt monks hands at certain level count as a MAgical Weapon of +1-5 depending on the level? That would help them get past the Dr, or not. hmm


And i have to ask whats MAD?

[Dullyanna]

MAD- A MAD class is one that depends on multiple high ability scores in orfer to be effective. Examples are the paladin, ranger, and monk.

[Ceres]

MAD- A MAD class is one that depends on multiple high ability scores in orfer to be effective. Examples are the paladin, ranger, and monk.

Aw man. And I always thought the monk focused on Mutually Assured Destruction... I wonder if any of the 4e "roles" can do that. Hmm... I have an idea for a class...

Anyways great, simple work, Yakk. Doesn't change the flavour and doesn't make him too powerful (I'd still consider the barbarian more powerful).

[Xenoti]

MAD- A MAD class is one that depends on multiple high ability scores in orfer to be effective. Examples are the paladin, ranger, and monk.

But what does the MAD mean, i understand what they use the term for but what?

Multiple Ability Deficiency ?

[RelentlessImp]

Multiple Ability Dependency (MAD), the requirement of needing more than one solid score to do their jobs, more so than others. Such as a Monk needing Strength, Dexterity, Constitution and Wisdom to be good at what they do, whereas a Fighter or Barbarian only really needs Strength and Constitution, or a Cleric really only needs Wisdom or a Wizard only really needs Intelligence.

[Xuincherguixe]

2 more attacks at the same BAB kind of makes it unbalanced compared to a fighter.

... Which isn't exactly saying much. But I think the main reason why Monks had a medium BAB is because of Flurry.

[Dullyanna]

But I think the main reason why Monks had a medium BAB is because of Flurry.

Problem is, the monk can't trip, or grapple, or disarm thanks to that medium BAB. An extra attack won't make them more powerful than your standard power-attacking barbarian.

[truemane]

A> Monks are a full BaB class. Flurry of Blows only generates a -1 to hit at all levels.

B> Monks may move their "extra distance" even when doing a full-attack. This movement may occur before, during or after any other actions during the turn.

C> Monks may move adjacent to a vertical wall or other similar structure (tree, cliff, etc) as if they where balanced on the ground up to their safe-fall distance per round. Moving upwards requires twice as much safe-fall distance and twice as much movement. At the end of their movement for the turn they must be on solid ground or otherwise supported or they will fall, however.

D> Attacks during a flurry of blows add up for the purpose of defeating DR or hardness.

E> If the monk hits on an attack of opportunity, she may burn another attack of opportunity to attack the same target again at -5 (cumulative). She may do this as many times as she has bonus attacks from her Flurry of Blows. This sequence of attacks is considered to be a Flurry of Blows for the purpose of penetrating DR/Hardness.

Reasoning:
A> Monks shouldn't suck at hitting things with their fists.

B> This provides a unique advantage to Monks, and lets them leverage both their extra movement and their flurry ability.

C> Wall running is, well, just fun.

D> As it stood, monks had serious problems defeating DR. By letting the flurry stack, a monk can build up enough damage to get through the DR, without making getting special weapons pointless.

E> As part of <D>, the monk needs multiple attacks to get through DR.

Thoughts?

I've never seen a problem with their BAB. Clerics have the mid-run BAB progression and they're fine. I say:

1. Keep the BAB.
2. Allow for Flurry to be used as a standard action. If they want ALL the attacks, and/or any gained from TWF, they need to burn the Full Attack. This is a simpler solution, involving fewer rules alterations. And serves basically the same purpose.
3. I never thought of letting Monks climb walls. Sweet! Maybe allow them as much wall running as they have Slow Fall? A 20th level Monk could then run as much wall as he wanted. Godo times!
4. That could work, although simply allowing them a wider variety of DR beating would do the same thing with less arguing.
5. Interesting. Neutral on that one.

Nice work, overall.

[Dullyanna]

I've never seen a problem with their BAB. Clerics have the mid-run BAB progression and they're fine.

This can vary greatly from priest to priest, but they get full armor, weapons, and craploads of buffs that improve their effectiveness in melee. And they're a SPELLCASTING class, to boot.

[Karma Guard]

A: So the Flurry doesn't lose the penalties I'm guessing?

B: It's like a teeny Spring Attack, and I love Spring attack.

C: There's a feat for this! Up the Walls. It's Psionic, but it's similar. (you can move on walls/whatever so long as you don't end the round on a wall.)

D: So if the Flurry damage goes 10 5 7 8 2 it goes through DR 20/-, dealing 12 damage?

E: I like that just because it's something to do with your AoOs.


Any ideas for the Stunning Fist? I think I'll be making this one feat (Pressure Point Chakra?) built in; it allows a lot more usage out of the Stunning Fists. (Poisoning, Nausea, Para/Blind/Deaf, as well as undoing all of that.) It only works on Human-shaped things, so it works out. :V

[Yakk]

The problem is the inability to get near main melee to-hit numbers, resulting in lots of wiffs.

Basically, at L 20, the monk gets attacks at -5/-5/-5/-10/-15, in comparison to the TWF full-BaB class's -2/-2/-7/-7/-12/-12/-17/-17. On top of that, if the monk is using her fists, she is another +5 under the melee class.

So that's -10/-10/-10/-15/-20 vs -2/-2/-7/-7/-12/-12/-17/-17.

I suppose instead of full-BaB, I could grant them "enchanted fists". Something like:

Monk's Strike
This refers to attacking unarmed, and doing the standard Monk damage. Other kinds of unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks are not considered Monk's Strikes.

A Monk's Strike is considered both manufactured and a natural weapon.

At L 4, the Monk can grant her Monk's Strike a +1 enchantment bonus. This increases to +2 at L 8, +3 at L 12, +4 at L 16 and +5 at L 20.

At L 5, a Monk may pick one of (Piercing, Slashing). Her Monk's Strikes can do this damage as well as the standard Crushing damage. At L 13, she can do any one of Crushing, Piercing or Slashing damage with her Monk's Strike.

At L 6, the Monk can learn up to +1 in "other" effects for her Monk's Strike (such as flaming, keen, etc). This increases to +2 at L 10, +3 at L 14 and +4 at L 18.

At L 9, the Monk may pick a single masterwork non-enchanted weapon, and bond with it over a period of 1 week or 1 level (whichever happens first). The bonuses from her Monk's Strike now applies to attacks with that weapon as well. The Monk can only be bonded with 1 weapon at a time. If it becomes otherwise enhanced permanently the bond is also broken.

At L 12, the Monk's gains a secondary set of "other" effects for her Monk's Strike, and can pick which set is active before making a given attack. She may bond a 2nd weapon, or allow the first weapon to use either kind of attack.

...

There. Now a Monk can have fists of fire if she wants them, or keen fists, or whatever. And it gives the Monk some room to customize.

It is, however, more complex.

[Finerty]

On top of that, if the monk is using her fists, she is another +5 under the melee class.

I would agree on the full BAB, only because it lowers the MAD factor - With full BAB, you're not as dependent on a high Str to hit, although I've always thought that Weapon Finesse (and if you've got the feat to burn, Shadow Blade Technique from Tome of Battle to add Dex to damage) was a natural MAD-offset for monks.
However, monks aren't really inhibited by having to rely on natural weapons. Taking levels in kensai, a class that lends itself really well to monks (brilliant energy fists!) or investing in an necklace of natural weapons can give you those enhancement bonuses or weapon abilities you want, and the lovely PHBII feat Versatile Strike gives monks the option of making their attacks do any kind of weapon damage they want.

[Darkbane]

I agree that monks should be switched to full BAB, but I think the current penalties from Flurry of Blows (start at -2, eventually lessen to -0) works well. There's a feat in PHBII, Water Splitting Stone, that helps the monk to get past DR, but I think the Flurry/DR mechanic works really well, and you don't have to burn a feat. Ki Strike just doesn't cut it.

[Finerty]

Alternatively, remove the lawful restriction (which has NEVER made satisfying sense to me), then, add in some ki strike's for first one component, then the other of one's alignment. If the monk has only one alignment component (LN, NG, etc.), the monk may choose to gain a specific metal for their second ki strike - cold iron or silver. True Neutral Monks gain no aligned strikes, but eventually hit as though magic, adamantine, cold iron, and silver.

[Lord Iames Osari]

The problem is the inability to get near main melee to-hit numbers, resulting in lots of wiffs.

Basically, at L 20, the monk gets attacks at -5/-5/-5/-10/-15, in comparison to the TWF full-BaB class's -2/-2/-7/-7/-12/-12/-17/-17. On top of that, if the monk is using her fists, she is another +5 under the melee class.

So that's -10/-10/-10/-15/-20 vs -2/-2/-7/-7/-12/-12/-17/-17.

What's with all the negative numbers? :smallconfused:

[Yakk]

I'm starting with "full BaB is the baseline to-hit number", and giving deltas off of that.

As D&D conflict resolution is affine (a +5 vs +0 has the same success-boost as +25 vs +20), it seems appropriate.

I'll admit the Monk can get an Amulet of Natural weapons -- and maybe that kind of thing is best, so the Monk isn't that much more powerful than other melee when disarmed.

The problem with the weapon finess route is that Str adds to damage, and Dex doesn't.

[McMindflayer]

Alright, the Mad of the Monk - STrength, Dexterity and Wisdom (I don't count Con, since every class essentially needs con.)

The easiest way is to replace strength, and then have everything based on Dex and Wis.

Give Monks Weapon Finesse as a free feat, and allow them to add full Wis to each attack. That drops their Mad to Dual, and that's not so bad.

Keep Mid BAB. AT 20th level, they get the one extra attack than a fighter does, at a -5 penalty to the first attack. Full BAB and you will be going into the range of making the class a +1 LA.

If you think they aren't getting enough Protection add Con to AC, or give them DR like a Barbarian.

At 20th level, Drop the Magic in their DR.

There is a feat that turns TWF into a standard action. Give them that for their flurry at the appropriate level. (I think it's in CWar, or PHB2)

Keep the Lawful Trait. It's a big thing in their fluff. Which isn't a martial artist, but a man trying to reach enlightenment. (Which is why the crunch behind the class sucks, btw.)

give them Abundant step more times per day. (Or maybe once per encounter rather than once per day)

Make Wholeness of Body Monk level times Wisdom (If you think it needs changing. The most it'll receive at level 20, unless massive tweaking, is 100. And the HP a Monk has at level 20, MAX is 160, and that's if con is 0.)

And lastely, give them a feat form Dragon Magazine at around level 8 or higher.

Ring the Golden Bell
A number of times per day equal to 1+Wisdom Bonus, you may deal unarmed strike damage witha successful ranged atttack. This attack has a range increment equal to 5ft + 5ft per point of wisdom bonus. Normal cover modifiers apply. This attack can deliver any effect your unarmed strike can normally deliver, such as a stunning attack with your stunning fist feat.



Of course, for all these changes, you'll have to drop a lot of the fluff stuff. Timeless body, Purity of body, Tongue of Sun and Moon, Diamond Body. Heck, amybe even Empty Body.

[Darkbane]

The problem is that with medium BAB, the monk's attack bonus still lags behind the fighter's, and a TWF fighter can get more attacks into the bargain. Monks do have a bit of a problem bypassing DR, but thatcan be gotten around in other ways. The wall-running and full attack moving add interesting tactical options to the monk, but the biggest thing here is full BAB.

For the person who suggested giving the monk extra 5-foot steps: there's an item in Arms & Equipment that gives a monk an extra 5-foot step. Otherwise, no. Skirmish+two 5-foot steps+full attack=pain.

[SurlySeraph]

At L 6, the Monk can learn up to +1 in "other" effects for her Monk's Strike (such as flaming, keen, etc). This increases to +2 at L 10, +3 at L 14 and +4 at L 18.

Returning Flaming Fists. Think about that. This needs a couple more restrictions.

[Darkbane]

I don't have a problem with flaming fists in and of themselves , but giving monks a class ability to enchant their fists completely removes any impetus for monks to take Kensai levels. Signature, self-imbued weapons are what kensais are all about; don't take that away from them.

[Lysander]

I like your ideas, but I don't really care for the idea of monks with flaming fists. The core monk class should be left with punches and blows. Icy punches and lightning bolt karate chops and all that anime stuff should be prestige classes. More Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon than Dragonball Z.

[Darkbane]

No, it was either "full BAB" or "enchanted fists."