Starfinder vs Starjammer: What's the difference?

[frogglesmash]

Are they different names for the same thing? Is one a precursor to the other? Are they completely seperate systems? What's going on? I don't know. All I do know is that I need answers.

Note: I am not asking about spelljammer.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Are they different names for the same thing? Is one a precursor to the other? Are they completely seperate systems? What's going on? I don't know. All I do know is that I need answers.
Note: I am not asking about spelljammer.

I think one's Paizo's official product and the other's some 3rd party company attempt at covering the same territory.

[StSword]

That's a bit of a story.

d20prsrd decided to do a Pathfinder in space setting, which they were going to call Starfinder.

Then Pathfinder released that they were making their new game, Starfinder.

So d20pfsrd renamed their project Starjammer.

They then released two versions of the Starjammer core book, the pathfinder version as originally planned, and the Starfinder version.

So mostly starjammer is 3PP material for Starfinder- new races, new archetypes, new tech, that sort of thing, but they still sell the pathfinder edition of the core book if you don't want to bother learning the starfinder system.

[GrayDeath]

Thanks for reminding me, I had some questions regarding Starjammer as well. I`ll hijack it a bit, if you dont mind! :)

1st: I intended to do something akin to the old Spelljammer Games, where your regular Fantasy Chars could freely get "into the middle" of the Spheres battles.

How well does it work for that (regarding balance, ease of integration,e tc)?

2.: If using it only as an extension for starfinder, does it fix the obvious problems and kinda ... bland look it has?


Thanks ina dvance.

[noob]

Thanks for reminding me, I had some questions regarding Starjammer as well. I`ll hijack it a bit, if you dont mind! :)

1st: I intended to do something akin to the old Spelljammer Games, where your regular Fantasy Chars could freely get "into the middle" of the Spheres battles.

How well does it work for that (regarding balance, ease of integration,e tc)?

2.: If using it only as an extension for starfinder, does it fix the obvious problems and kinda ... bland look it has?


Thanks ina dvance.

Starfinder is the only system you should not use for doing spelljammer.
It is radically incompatible and have a feeling that is incredibly unspelljammery and it is more efficient to just translate spelljammer from dnd to pathfinder(it is not that hard)

[StSword]

Thanks for reminding me, I had some questions regarding Starjammer as well. I`ll hijack it a bit, if you dont mind! :)

1st: I intended to do something akin to the old Spelljammer Games, where your regular Fantasy Chars could freely get "into the middle" of the Spheres battles.

Well in that case, it sounds to me like you'd be better off getting the Pathfinder edition Starjammer book, which has as the default assumption that it's pathfinder dnd in space, so the party could have kineticists and sorcerers or rogues, etc, having adventures in outer space or on other planets.

While Starfinder does have fantasy elements, it's more a "science fiction with some fantasy elements thrown in" kind of thing.

That being said, I recently bought a book Arcforge: Star*Path that includes conversion rules for converting things from pathfinder to starfinder and vice versa, so you could have a game with a technomancer and a cleric, a rogue and a mechanic with an AI in his brain, a Solarian and a Paladin, etc, if that sounds like something that would interest you.

[Psyren]

Yeah, Starfinder is pretty low-magic by Spelljammer standards. You'd be better off finding a 3.5 conversion of Spelljammer, and then converting that to Pathfinder (if it doesn't already exist.)

[Telok]

In Starfinder the first level laser pistols can't damage a wooden stool or a plastic shelf (1d4 damage vs hardness 5 or 8).

At around 10th level it's possible for two people to stand ~30 feet apart and shoot each other with 'high power' guns for eight rounds (100+ hp each, around 2d10+7 damage, 2 shots per round at ~60% hit rate, DR 7/- from a feat) and be bored the whole time.

[frogglesmash]

In Starfinder the first level laser pistols can't damage a wooden stool or a plastic shelf (1d4 damage vs hardness 5 or 8).

At around 10th level it's possible for two people to stand ~30 feet apart and shoot each other with 'high power' guns for eight rounds (100+ hp each, around 2d10+7 damage, 2 shots per round at ~60% hit rate, DR 7/- from a feat) and be bored the whole time.

I mean, in pathfinder/d&d, two high level characters can stab each other in the gut over and over again, for minutes on end and be bored the whole time. That's more of an issue with d20 hitpoint systems, than with starfinder in particular.

[StSword]

I mean, in pathfinder/d&d two high level characters can stab each other in the gut over and over again, for minutes on end and be bored the whole time. That's more of an issue with d20 hitpoint systems, than with starfinder in particular.

Heh, that reminds me of the World of Prime setting which actually had that as a point of the setting.

Experience was a real tangible thing that people consume to augment their souls to gain class levels.

So all benefits of leveling are supernatural abilities. Not supernatural as in dnd terms, but as in the generic meaning of the word.

So the fact that a high level wizard could be set on fire and then have a cannon shot into their face and only be vaguely annoyed by it was just an example of how superhuman adventurers are.

The idea of a say a fifth level Fighter basically being the Terminator as far as the muggles would be concerned just appeals to me.

[Psyren]

I mean, in pathfinder/d&d two high level characters can stab each other in the gut over and over again, for minutes on end and be bored the whole time. That's more of an issue with d20 hitpoint systems, than with starfinder in particular.

^ That, and the "Hitpoints" in Starfinder are actually a combination of actual health and Stamina, i.e. most of those shots are grazing or otherwise being mitigated, in game terms.

[Zombimode]

I mean, in pathfinder/d&d, two high level characters can stab each other in the gut over and over again, for minutes on end and be bored the whole time.

Can they, now? high-level characters do have lots of HP - in comparison to low level characters. They also deal far more damage then low-level characters.
In my experience the damage/HP ratio is the lowest arround level 4-5. High-level characters on the other hand obliterate anything they touch within 1 or 2 rounds unless the target has put some serious concerns into defense.


Even if we take it literally, that is: having two high-level characters actually just standing in front of each other and stabbing each other, they would eat a coup-de-grace each turn. Eating a coup-de-grace every turn is not something that most characters can survive for long with good chances that even the first strike is already deadly. And those character who do have a ridiculously high Fort save mod have earned the right to survive multiple stabs in the gut. That is what having a ridiculously high Fort save mod means.


In any case the lovely picture of high-level D&D characters stabbing eachother for minutes with no end is not exactly accurate.

[frogglesmash]

Can they, now? high-level characters do have lots of HP - in comparison to low level characters. They also deal far more damage then low-level characters.
In my experience the damage/HP ratio is the lowest arround level 4-5. High-level characters on the other hand obliterate anything they touch within 1 or 2 rounds unless the target has put some serious concerns into defense.


Even if we take it literally, that is: having two high-level characters actually just standing in front of each other and stabbing each other, they would eat a coup-de-grace each turn. Eating a coup-de-grace every turn is not something that most characters can survive for long with good chances that even the first strike is already deadly. And those character who do have a ridiculously high Fort save mod have earned the right to survive multiple stabs in the gut. That is what having a ridiculously high Fort save mod means.


In any case the lovely picture of high-level D&D characters stabbing eachother for minutes with no end is not exactly accurate.

The scenario I was responding to used basic attacks, not coupe-de-graces, and only accounted for basic weapon damage, and one feat, so while it's true that higher level characters can be built to deal much higher amounts of damage, and that coupe-de-graces can kill much quicker, including either in my example would have resulted in a false equivalency.

[Zombimode]

The scenario I was responding to used basic attacks, not coupe-de-graces, and only accounted for basic weapon damage, and one feat, so while it's true that higher level characters can be built to deal much higher amounts of damage, and that coupe-de-graces can kill much quicker, including either in my example would have resulted in a false equivalency.

But with that you have excluded large parts of what actually constitutes a high-level character.

And your point (at least that's how I took it) was that the quoted situation with the Starfinder guns being a normal occurrence in pf/d&d - which is simply untrue.

[OgresAreCute]

But with that you have excluded large parts of what actually constitutes a high-level character.

And your point (at least that's how I took it) was that the quoted situation with the Starfinder guns being a normal occurrence in pf/d&d - which is simply untrue.

Not to mention that in Starfinder, nearly all your damage progression comes from your weapon, so having a level-appropriate weapon is a lot different from two level 10 fighters in PF stabbing each other for 1d4+6 damage a turn.

[frogglesmash]

But with that you have excluded large parts of what actually constitutes a high-level character.

And your point (at least that's how I took it) was that the quoted situation with the Starfinder guns being a normal occurrence in pf/d&d - which is simply untrue.

Both examples exclude large portions of what constitutes a high level character, that's why they're equivalent, and the point of my example was to demonstrate that the the standard hp system in most d20 systems can lead to absurd situations. What my example didn't do, was speak to the regularity of the aforementioned absurd situations.


Not to mention that in Starfinder, nearly all your damage progression comes from your weapon, so having a level-appropriate weapon is a lot different from two level 10 fighters in PF stabbing each other for 1d4+6 damage a turn.

I can't speak with any authority on the topic, as I am unfamiliar with the system, however I find it hard to believe that influence of character build on damage is as insignificant as the original example indicated.

[Resileaf]

I can't speak with any authority on the topic, as I am unfamiliar with the system, however I find it hard to believe that influence of character build on damage is as insignificant as the original example indicated.

Character build does increase damage a bit, mainly by allowing you to more easily do more attacks a turn, but it's really the weapon that affects how well you deal damage. Difference with D&D/Pathfinder is that weapon progression is not adding magic on it. You instead buy higher tech weapons that deal higher damage. So an early weapon will deal, indeed, 1d4 damage, but an endgame weapon will deal 14d6.

Starfinder is a bit videogame in its weapon progression, with every item having an item level that suggests at which level characters should have access to a given weapon or armour (which can range from +1 AC to +28) to remain balanced.

[Psyren]

Can they, now? high-level characters do have lots of HP - in comparison to low level characters. They also deal far more damage then low-level characters.

18 Strength puts you at peak human strength. At high levels, a sword stab from someone with 18 Str (1d8+4) barely scratches the paint for most characters, and it doesn't trigger massive damage rules either, even on a crit.

This is a quality of hitpoints increasing with level in game's like this. Nobody is saying it's a bad thing, just that it's disingenuous to say Starfinder is somehow unique in that regard. If anything, Starfinder has greater accuracy, because actual health (HP) increases a lot slower than Stamina for most races, and boosting Con only affects the latter.

[Telok]

So seriously, my group played Starfinder for about 5 months. I could go on about grenades unable to damage plasic lawn chairs, styrofoam spaceships, low level characters unable to buy a used car because of the item level, buying door locks for your spaceship reduces your survivability in space combat, etc., etc.

But yes, several times there were fights where the shooty people stood around auto-attacking because there wasn't anything else to do and melee enemies couldn't get to them. There was also a memorable fight where two casters just spammed magic missile while everyone played body-shield because the adventure path had a fight (that calculated out right with the encounter buidling rules) where nobody could hit the enemy AC on less than a 18. Or when we discovered that AC wasn't totally worthless, we just had half the wealth-by-level we were supposed to and everything hit us because we all had 3rd level armor at level 8.

The system has some very rough spots and a number of holes in it. It doesn't really do D&D in space, it doesn't really do sci-fi, it doesn't really do space opera. It does... something. And I think the guy who DMed it threw away the book afterwards.

For my group the Starfinder system didn't work.

[StSword]

For my group the Starfinder system didn't work.

Sorry to hear that.

Myself, I just wasn't interested in learning a new system (which is why I picked up the pathfinder edition of Starjammer), so Starfinder is for mining ideas.

Like the book Gonzo Mad Science, which had three new classes- nanite empowered Replicators, Time Travellers (what is says on the tin), and basically Tron the base class the Technician. I'd just rather play with those with rules I already know.

[GrayDeath]

Hmmm, really implementing a Solarian or a Technomancer (the ones I think a useful SPelljammer Mixup would need the most) would work?

Seems I need to find those Starjammer Rules for PF and/or some conversion stuff.

Still, please keep opinions and suggestions coming. I only played Starfubder twisce, anhd found it to ahve some good ideas and horrible horrible unfinished edges....

[StSword]

Hmmm, really implementing a Solarian or a Technomancer (the ones I think a useful SPelljammer Mixup would need the most) would work?

Seems I need to find those Starjammer Rules for PF and/or some conversion stuff.

Still, please keep opinions and suggestions coming. I only played Starfubder twisce, anhd found it to ahve some good ideas and horrible horrible unfinished edges....

I wouldn't be surprised if there were homebrew conversions out there, but the Arcforge: Star*Path is the book I mentioned with the conversion rules, if you want to buy the book, or can't find conversion rules you like.

Also included a Path of War archetype for the Solarian, Envoy, and Operative.

If Path of War is your cup of tea.

I just wished the path of war stuff had been more expansive.

A Solarian archetype that uses the Unquiet Grave discipline, the Order of the Dead Stars, perhaps?

And it seems to me that a full on Jedi like archetype would be possible, revolving around the Sleeping Goddess discipline.

[unseenmage]

I'm told the 3rd party Aethera setting has some.pretty cool.tech elements. Could get eyes on it and see if its compatible. IIRC it's made to be PF compatible.

I remember it had a strong music theme for the worldbuilding and magic and it also had airships/spaceships that were also Constructs. Really wish I'd gotten to fiddle with those.

EDIT
Oh yeah! Check out the Madness Such As This link in my sig. Somewhere in that mess I stat up clockwork spacewhale that are buildable at an early-ish level iirc.

The Oma from PF can carry folk in its mouth. As an Ex ability it carries over into being made a Construct. So theoretically players can build a magic robot spaceship Construct. Which is awesome.

[GrayDeath]

That would sound cool....

if Oma in my language would not mean Grandma ^^


@ StSword: Thank you, I will give them a look.

[DarkSoul]

Do some searching for Spelljammer: Shadow of the Spider Moon from Dungeon/Polyhedron. That was the closest we got to official 3.x Spelljammer material. It'll be good for ideas if nothing else.

[unseenmage]

That would sound cool....

if Oma in my language would not mean Grandma ^^

....
Sounds like you're going to need to run a steampunk spelljamming Moana adventure. :smallsmile:

Edit
The Aethera setting is separate from the spacewhale suggestion by the way. Just wanted to make that clearer.

[noob]

The kwalish submersible is airtight and the property is not said to be magical.
Disjunct it then make of it an animated object with inbuilt magical items that allows greater teleport and the like or make of it a stronghold.
Get a bottle of fresh air in it and then it is time to explore space

[Andor13]

The kwalish submersible is airtight and the property is not said to be magical.
Disjunct it then make of it an animated object with inbuilt magical items that allows greater teleport and the like or make of it a stronghold.
Get a bottle of fresh air in it and then it is time to explore space

And now I have the B-52s in my head singing "Space Lobster."

[noob]

I forgot: you have to paint the submersible in yellow too.

[Powerdork]

Starfinder is a bit videogame in its weapon progression, with every item having an item level that suggests at which level characters should have access to a given weapon or armour (which can range from +1 AC to +28) to remain balanced.

You know that 3.5's Magic Item Compendium had item levels too?

[Crake]

You know that 3.5's Magic Item Compendium had item levels too?

3.5's item levels were actually just a literal indicator of price and were used for their streamlined high level starting equipment system. Starfinder on the other hand, basically REQUIRES that people have level appropriate gear in that your character is quite possibly non-functional with it. Gear plays way too big a part in the system, and imo it completely ruins the system, because you don't feel like your character is getting any better, just that they're getting better gear. It also creates an issue where level and wealth are FAR too closely linked, which makes it feel super video-gamey, and it honestly just completely breaks apart if you actually follow that through to it's logical conclusion.

Being either undergeared or overgeared in other games makes the game harder/easier, but being under/over geared in starfinder makes the game practically impossible/a total cakewalk.


I can't speak with any authority on the topic, as I am unfamiliar with the system, however I find it hard to believe that influence of character build on damage is as insignificant as the original example indicated.

It was pretty blatantly obvious from just my initial looking over the system when my group was looking into sci-fi systems to play a sci-fi game. We also looked over rifts, cypher and then the DM eventually just settled on d6.

Personally, I think not enough people appreciate d20 modern/future.

[Telok]

You know that 3.5's Magic Item Compendium had item levels too?

So the item levels and wealth-by-level rules are baked into Starfinder from the start. PCs aren't allowed to buy stuff more than level+2 and can only sell stuff at 10% the list price. Building stuff doesn't save you any money, it's just a way to build at-level gear if you happen to have crafting supplies equal to the item's price.

For example a 'spy drone' (which is just a quad-copter with a camera, 20 minute battery, 1/2 mile remote control range, no automatic return-to-user function) is a level 6 item. Third level characters are not allowed to buy this because "they can't find one to buy or can't find someone to sell them one". Antitoxins give a bonus to saves vs. poison, the level 1 gives a +4 bonus and costs 150 credits, the level 15 one gives a +7 bonus and costs 23,500 credits.

Armors increase about +1 AC per item level. The light armors start at +0 to +2 and end up around +22. The heavy armors start around +5 and end at +27. The prices go from ~100 credits to ~930,000 credits. Weapons are similar, the first level heavy weapons do 1d10 damage and cost 250 to 450 credits. The 20th level weapons do 9d8, 9d12, 10d10 sort of damage and cost 720,000 to 950,000 credits.

Starfinder is built around the assumption that the PCs have a specific range of gear. The book does say that characters don't get to buy or make better gear. The result is that if a character's gear is outside of that +/-2 level range then the combat portion of the game pretty much stops working.

[GrayDeath]

Yeah, had the same impression.

The only classes not completely shafted by that are the Solarian (who can summon their own Special Weapons, and is in my opinion the coolest themed class in the book) and the Technomancer, who can make do with less due to "Technomagic".

Still, if I would ever run one, I would reduce the extreme Item dependancy, say to half the actual shear of now, and add some more automatic Bonus progressions methinks.