Druid Redesign

[Wryte]

Reading through the big druid thread over the last few days, I got a wild hair to give revamping the druid class and its PHB achetypes to see if I couldn't address some of the problems people brought up with the class, such as Land's features being underwhelming, Wild Shape's progression being tightly limited by range of forms, and creature CRs rendering favorite forms obsolete. Eager for thoughts and critique.

Changes:

Proficiencies:
Armor: Light armor, medium armor, shields
Weapons: Simple weapons, scimitars

Wild Shape: Starting at 2nd level, you can use your action to magically assume the shape of a beast you have seen before by expending a spell slot equal to the beast's CR, rounded up, and which doesn't have a swimming or flying speed. Beasts with a CR of 0 do not require a spell slot to be expended. At 4th level in this class, you gain the ability to transform into beasts with a swim speed, and at 8th level in this class, you gain the ability to transform into beasts with a flying speed. This transformation lasts for 10 minutes, or until you are reduced to 0 hit points. You choose when you transform whether your equipment falls to the ground in your space, merges into your new form, or is worn by it. Worn equipment functions as normal, but is limited by your new form's physical ability to wield it, and does not change shape or size with your form. Equipment that merges with your form has no effect until you return to normal.

While you are transformed, your game statistics are replaced by those of the beast, but you retain your alignment, personality, hit points, proficiency bonus, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature, and you retain the benefits of any and all class, race, or other features in addition to gaining those of the creature, but are limited by the physical abilities of your new form. When you transform, you gain temporary hit points equal to the creature's Constitution modifier (minimum 0) x the level of the spell slot expended. These hit points are lost if you revert to your original form.

You can't cast spells, and your ability to speak or take any action that requires hands is limited to the capabilities of your beast form. If the creature you transform into has a multiattack, you cannot use it until you reach 5th level in this class. Transforming doesn't break your concentration on a spell you've already cast, or prevent you from taking actions that are part of a spell that you've already cast, such as *moonbeam*.

Land Druid:

Circle Forms: Starting at level 6, you can assume the forms of plant creatures when you use your Wild Shape feature. When you use your Wild Shape to become a plant creature, you can use a bonus action at the same time to cast *barkskin* on yourself.

Nature's Ward: At 10th level you learn to weave natural energies around yourself as second nature. Casting the *barkskin* or *stoneskin* spell on yourself does not require concentration. You can only benefit from one spell's effects in this way at a time.

Nature's Sanctuary: When you reach 14th level, creatures of the natural world sense your connection to nature and become hesitant to attack you. When a beast or plant creature, or a monstrosity with an Intelligence score of 5 or lower, attacks you, that creature must make a Wisdom saving throw against your druid spell save DC. On a failed save, the creature must choose a different target, or the attack automatically misses. On a successful save, the creature is immune to this effect until the start of its next turn.

Moon Druid:

Combat Wild Shape: When you choose this circle at 2nd level, you gain the ability to use Wild Shape on your turn as a bonus action rather than an action, and while in Wild Shape form, you can roll a d4 in place of the normal damage of your new form's weapon attacks. You can use either Dexterity or Strength for the attack and damage rolls when substituting the damage die in this way.
Additionally, while you are transformed by Wild Shape, you can use a bonus action to expend on spell slot to regain 1d8 hit points per level of the spell slot expended.

Circle Forms: The teachings of your circle allow you to enhance the strength of your Wild Shape forms by expending a greater amount of power. Starting at 2nd level, when you use your Wild Shape feature, you can empower your new form's abilities by expending a spell slot of higher level than required. When you do, you increase the creature's Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores each by 1, and increase all damage dealt by the creature by 1 for each slot level above the required level. If the expended slot is at least 4 levels above the required level, you can increase the creature's size by one category per 4 additional slot levels, adding a damage die to all of the creature's attacks per size category.

Additionally, when you use your Wild Shape, you can choose to use your own Strength, Dexterity, and/or Constitution scores in place of the creature's. Your ability scores do not gain the bonus from expending a higher level spell slot than the creature's CR.

Monstrous Wild Shape: At 10th level, you can assume the forms of monstrosities with an Intelligence score of 5 or lower when you use your Wild Shape feature. Transforming into a monstrosity requires a spell slot 1 level higher than the creature's CR.

[sophontteks]

This completely takes away the identity of the moon druid.
There are too much numbers involved with wildshaping to fit the 5e mold.
All these stat boosts for wildshapes make them pretty OP. Moon druids were balanced, giving other druids a better version of the moon druid's wildshape on top of their other abilities is broken. Shepherd druids are already strong. If you think land druids are weak, just buff them.

[Sigreid]

If my DM said they were changing the druid I would be upset.

[Great Dragon]

Post recovered.

@Wryte: making the Shapechange run on Spell Slots also causes an enhanced conflict similar to the Paladin's: Do I use a spell or a power?

Plus, do I go for a CR 9 beast - or boost a CR 5 beast with a 9th Tier Spell Slot for Plus 1 to Str, Dex, Con and an increase in size?

Moon Druid no longer really stands out, since simply raising Physical stats only means that they have a (lesser) type of Expertise.

AFB so am not sure if there are any CR 1 'monstrosities'.

I tend to wonder why: a Tundra Land Druid can't become a Winter Wolf; or a Dream Druid a Blink Dog; or a Plains Land Druid a Displacer Beast; or a Mountain/Volcano Land Druid a Hellhound?

But, your Moon Druid can be any/all of these, and up to CR 9, instead of the normal limit of CR 6.
------

Sigreid
On the metal armor thing, in early editions it was spelled out that metal armor broke their taboos and a druid that wore it would not have access to their druid powers until 24 hours after they took it off.
We could also bring this back.

Q: Would keeping Nature's Sancturary but removing the Wild Shape and giving the other Circle Druids a Nature-based permanent Familiar-like companion (for free) - based on Region/Terrain and/or Subclass - that improves with level - up to a CR 6 - be a better idea? (Allows the sharing of senses, and can be recalled if killed, as per Find Familiar.)
Not sure if allowing it to attack would overshadow the Beast Master Ranger too much.

----
Great Dragon: I posted this idea for Barkskin, but no one really responded for effects.

At the very least it should allow the Dex mod to be added, if not the +2 Shield bonus as well.

1) I wonder: would allowing up casting to increase AC to 18 (plus Dex and +2 Shield in Humanoid form) be a possible fix? Maybe in a 5th level Spell Slot?

2) Or would making AC 16 with the duration 6 hours with no concentration be better? Still + Dex and shield.

[nickl_2000]

AFB so am not sure if there are any CR 1 'monstrosities'.


My google fu says that there are a few, although not all of them should be eligible for wildshape forms (really everything but the Harpy.

Death Dog
Giant Strider
Harpy
Hippogriff
Ice Toad

[KorvinStarmast]

The Druid as is has IMO nothing wrong with it.
There is a power spike at 2-4 for Moon Druids. Big deal, a DM can adjust for that in encounter design.
This isn't a computer game.

It is otherwise an OK full caster (though the number of concentration spells is somewhat disturbing to me ... one just needs to work within that limitation )

[Max_Killjoy]

Something that came to mind as inspiration for a druid rework during the "why are druids unpopular?" thread was the character Vixen from the Justice League Unlimited animated series. Not sure if anyone here has seen that.

She calls on the powers of various animal spirits -- so she might call on a cheetah for speed, or a gecko for climbing, or an elephant for mass to sit on a villain until the authorities arrive.

[sophontteks]

Something that came to mind as inspiration for a druid rework during the "why are druids unpopular?" thread was the character Vixen from the Justice League Unlimited animated series. Not sure if anyone here has seen that.

She calls on the powers of various animal spirits -- so she might call on a cheetah for speed, or a gecko for climbing, or an elephant for mass to sit on a villain until the authorities arrive.
Shepherd druid already calls on spirits, and it's a very strong ability.

[Max_Killjoy]

Shepherd druid already calls on spirits, and it's a very strong ability.

I'll have to look at that again in XGTE tonight when I get home... the druids subclasses are part I've only read the "fluff" on at this point.

Might work as the basis of a druid rework if someone wanted a more "fantasy shaman" feel for the whole Class.

[elyktsorb]

I just feel like Land and Dreams Druids could use a few buffs and tweaks. I also don't think it's fair to make Druids use spell slots for wildshape, which would just be like having worse Polymorph right?

[Great Dragon]

I just feel like Land and Dreams Druids could use a few buffs and tweaks. I also don't think it's fair to make Druids use spell slots for wildshape, which would just be like having worse Polymorph right?

Actually, even by RAW; since the Druid keeps their Mental stats, and personality - they get a better deal then Polymorphed people: who get all the stats for the creature they become. So that 20 Int Wizard that Polymorphed himself into a T-rex now has a 6 Int (lower? AFB)

[Max_Killjoy]

Actually, even by RAW; since the Druid keeps their Mental stats, and personality - they get a better deal then Polymorphed people: who get all the stats for the creature they become. So that 20 Int Wizard that Polymorphed himself into a T-rex now has a 6 Int (lower? AFB)

"Why aren't you seizing the boy?!"
"I have a big head, and little arms... I'm just not sure how well this plan was thought through."

[MagneticKitty]

This gives the combat abilities of moon druid to all druids, and reduces usability of forms by a lot. What if I want to sleep at camp as a tiger all night to discourage robbers. Be a fly on the wall for more than 10 minutes. I think wild shape could be bettered, but not like this. Free cr. 0 shapes is nice but not at this cost. Poor moon druid losing its special thing with this

[PhoenixPhyre]

Something that came to mind as inspiration for a druid rework during the "why are druids unpopular?" thread was the character Vixen from the Justice League Unlimited animated series. Not sure if anyone here has seen that.

She calls on the powers of various animal spirits -- so she might call on a cheetah for speed, or a gecko for climbing, or an elephant for mass to sit on a villain until the authorities arrive.

That's actually my head canon for druids as a whole. It's all about calling on spirits to take action.

Spells? Those are spirits acting through them to produce an effect in return for bits of energy (the spell slot). So a thorn whip spell is calling on a vine/plant spirit (with which you've made a deal); it "possesses" you and together you enact the spell. This is the wisdom part of the class--being in tune with the spirits so they can act most effectively.

Wildshape? You're calling on beast spirits and pouring energy into materializing a temporary body for them (and you) to inhabit jointly. It's not as much changing your body as subsuming it. The extra mass (in either direction) goes to the place where spirits are found normally. You and the spirit fuze, it lends its experience in that form and you give it will. You get this new form and it gets to play in the material world.

Summons? You're calling spirits to inhabit temporary puppet bodies. They only exist as long as you can feed them energy (concentration), but aren't hurt by the process, even if reduced to 0 HP. Many find it amusing to ride these bodies in the material world.

[Great Dragon]

"Why are you seizing the boy?!"
"I have a big head, and little arms... I'm just not sure how well this plan was thought through."

ROFLMAO!
From the "Meet the Robinsons" movie, right?

Meanwhile, the Velesirapter Moon Druid is using Pass Without Trace with the Ranger and the Rogue to ambush the BBEG!!

@PhoenixPhyre: that's pretty cool.

[Rukelnikov]

Wild Shape: Starting at 2nd level, you can use your action to magically assume the shape of a beast you have seen before by expending a spell slot equal to the beast's CR, rounded up, and which doesn't have a swimming or flying speed. Beasts with a CR of 0 do not require a spell slot to be expended. At 4th level in this class, you gain the ability to transform into beasts with a swim speed, and at 8th level in this class, you gain the ability to transform into beasts with a flying speed. This transformation lasts for 10 minutes, or until you are reduced to 0 hit points. You choose when you transform whether your equipment falls to the ground in your space, merges into your new form, or is worn by it. Worn equipment functions as normal, but is limited by your new form's physical ability to wield it, and does not change shape or size with your form. Equipment that merges with your form has no effect until you return to normal.

The power spike on this is pretty phenomenal, CR2 forms at lvl 3? It makes every low level Druid even stronger than current Moon Druid, likely the strongest class at that level. This takes from your slots, true, but at that point, what 1st lvl spell can compete with becoming a Brown Bear for 10 minutes and getting 15 extra HP? It effectively pigeons all Druids before lvl 5, at the very least, to play as Moon Druids.


When you transform, you gain temporary hit points equal to (15 + the beast's Constitution modifier) x the level of the spell slot expended. If you expend a spell slot higher than the creature's CR (rounded up), you increase the beast's Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores each by 1, and increase all damage dealt by the creature by 1 for each slot level above the creature's CR, and any of the creature's damaging attacks that don't already have a damage die become 1d4. If the expended slot is at least 4 levels above the creature's CR, you can increase the creature's size by one category per 4 slot levels above the creature's CR, and doing so adds an additional damage die to all the creature's sources of damage per size increase.

Now this introduces some unnecesary complications that will slow down the game, remove beast's Con from formula, that way you don't have to do arithmetics every time you become some beast outside of normal repertoire. Second, the d4 die is very niche, and only increases damage by an average of 1.5, do away with that. The size increasing thing, save it for Moon Druids only.


You can't cast spells, and your ability to speak or take any action that requires hands is limited to the capabilities of your beast form. Transforming doesn't break your concentration on a spell you've already cast, or prevent you from taking actions that are part of a spell that you've already cast.

Land Druid:

Circle Forms: Starting at level 6, you can assume the forms of plants when you use your Wild Shape feature.

Nature's Ward: At 10th level you learn to weave natural energies around yourself like second nature. You can cast druid spells of the abjuration or transmutation schools on yourself without taking up concentration. You can only benefit from one spell's effects in this way at a time.

This is broken, Shapechange now can't be disrupted by concentration, AND they can get Guardian of Nature or Conjure Woodland Beings on top of it? Or wildshape into something and have Guardian of Nature AND conjure woodland beings on top? Giant Insect + CWB?


Circle Forms: The teachings of your circle allow you to retain your own physical power when shapeshifting. Starting at 2nd level, whenever you use your Wild Shape to transform into a creature, you can choose to use your own Strength, Dexterity, and/or Constitution scores in place of the creature's. Your ability scores do not gain the bonus from expending a higher level spell slot than the creature's CR.

This will be useful mainly for Dex, since its normally a low stat in most forms that can be taken, however that will not necesarily translate to a higher AC, since most low Dex beasts get Nat armor (I think nat armor is a fixed amount of AC, much like plate, though you can always revert to 10+Dex I think). I think Moons aren't getting that much here(without becoming MAD). I'd make their uses of wildshape last for 1 hour instead of 10 minutes, consider that without some kind of boost, Land Druids can shape more times per day by regainin slots in short rest.

[Max_Killjoy]

ROFLMAO!
From the "Meet the Robinsons" movie, right?

Meanwhile, the Velesirapter Moon Druid is using Pass Without Trace with the Ranger and the Rogue to ambush the BBEG!!

@PhoenixPhyre: that's pretty cool.

Yeap, from that movie. Realized I had a typo or copy error when I was trying to get the exact phrasing right.

[Wryte]

Okay, time to catch up on all these responses! First off, to everyone saying that this outclasses the Moon Druid, you're absolutely right. I was translating my notes from a notebook to my OP right before going to bed, and I think I got a few things that I meant to be Moon-specific added into the base feature, primarily things to do with upcasting. I'll give that another pass and get it sorted out.

Now, on to other concerns.


@Wryte: making the Shapechange run on Spell Slots also causes an enhanced conflict similar to the Paladin's: Do I use a spell or a power?

I see your concern, but I think it would be less of an issue here than with paladins for two reasons.

First, simply because druids have so many more spell slots than paladins do, I expect that druids won't find making decisions about whether to spend a slot on a transformation as difficult when they have so many more slots available for spells.

Second, because Wild Shape and spellcasting are already mutually exclusive in the current model. Paladins are faced with the Smite/Spell choice every time their turn comes up because both are always options, but that's not really the case for druids. Since a druid can't cast spells in Wild Shape until level 18, druids are already committing to shapeshifting or spellcasting as their primary focus from the moment they choose their circle, if not from the moment they roll the character. Moon druids have already chosen to focus on shapeshifting instead of casting spells, and other circles treat Wild Shape as more of a utility feature or backup plan.


Plus, do I go for a CR 9 beast - or boost a CR 5 beast with a 9th Tier Spell Slot for Plus 1 to Str, Dex, Con and an increase in size?

That's easy. You boost a CR 5, because there are no CR 9 beasts. :P

More seriously, while more extensive testing would certainly be a good idea, the cases I checked with this method to scale and compare various beasts of varying CRs to each other in the Monster Manual were resulting in pretty even match ups between the scaled beasts and the beasts that were naturally at their upscaled CR. I used the DMG's guidelines for generating creature CRs to determine the average increase in AC, HP, Attack Bonus, and Damage from one CR to another to determine the bonuses for upcasting the Wild Shapes, which should keep them fairly consistently accurate to the CR they're emulating.

At that point, it shouldn't be anymore necessary to calculate exactly how the stats break down for an upcast beast vs a beast with a naturally higher CR than it would be to do so when comparing two beasts of the same CR. You should be able to look simply at the overall picture of each beast, and determine which form to use based on which strengths or special abilities you're looking for.


AFB so am not sure if there are any CR 1 'monstrosities'.

Maybe not, but by the time Moon gets that feature they have 5th level spell slots.


Q: Would keeping Nature's Sancturary but removing the Wild Shape and giving the other Circle Druids a Nature-based permanent Familiar-like companion (for free) - based on Region/Terrain and/or Subclass - that improves with level - up to a CR 6 - be a better idea? (Allows the sharing of senses, and can be recalled if killed, as per Find Familiar.)
Not sure if allowing it to attack would overshadow the Beast Master Ranger too much.

I feel like Wild Shape is important to keep as a standard druid feature. It's the class's most distinctive feature. Taking it away would be like taking away a rogue's sneak attack or a bard's Inspiration dice. While it's not primarily a combat feature for non-Moons, it's still a great utility feature. And yeah, I feel like a scaling familiar would definitely step on the Ranger's toes, if not outright be better.


My google fu says that there are a few, although not all of them should be eligible for wildshape forms (really everything but the Harpy.

Death Dog
Giant Strider
Harpy
Hippogriff
Ice Toad

The harpy wouldn't be eligible. Their Int is too high. I don't recall ever seeing ice toads in the MM, Volo's, or MtoF. Maybe a campaign book?


There is a power spike at 2-4 for Moon Druids. Big deal, a DM can adjust for that in encounter design.

Sure, but the higher a Moon druid gets in level, the fewer options they have. Their lower CR forms start to lose effectiveness, and they gain very few new options to replace them. The only beasts between CRs 4 and 6 in the Monster Manual are the Elephant (4), Giant Crocodile (5), Giant Shark (5), Triceratops (5, and Mammoth (6). Even if your DM gives you access to all of them, that's only 5 new forms after level 9, and not representing a very diverse array of archetypes.


What if I want to sleep at camp as a tiger all night to discourage robbers. Be a fly on the wall for more than 10 minutes.

Fly on the wall is easy. The fly is CR 0, which would be free to continuously to recast every time the duration is running out. The tiger thing already doesn't work by RAW, as RAW Wild Shape only lasts an hour.


The power spike on this is pretty phenomenal, CR2 forms at lvl 3? It makes every low level Druid even stronger than current Moon Druid, likely the strongest class at that level. This takes from your slots, true, but at that point, what 1st lvl spell can compete with becoming a Brown Bear for 10 minutes and getting 15 extra HP? It effectively pigeons all Druids before lvl 5, at the very least, to play as Moon Druids.


That's fair, the Brown Bear is a gnarly piece of work for a 1st level slot. However, we can adjust for that. The three things a Brown Bear brings to the table for our hypothetical druid are 1: a big bag of hit points, 2: attacks on part with a martial character of the same level, and 3: multiattack.

Point #2 doesn't seem like a problem to me. It's points #1 and #3 that make the Brown Bear too strong for a 1st level spell.

First to #1, the Brown Bear is worth 34 hit points with current Wild Shape rules. With my proposed rule changes, instead of getting that 34 hit points, the druid gets (15 + Con) * Slot Level. The bear has a +3 Con modifier, so casting it with a level 1 slot only nets 18 hit points. Still, that is a lot at 2nd level. A False Life spell cast at the same level, whose only function is to grant temporary hit points, is only worth 1d4 + 4. Bringing the temporary hit points from the transformation down is then entirely reasonable. Looking at False Life again as a baseline to compare, it grants an additional 5 temporary hit points per spell level. In that case, let's drop the 15 from the THP equation and simply make it temporary hit points equal to Beast Con * Slot Level (Minimum 0). For the Brown Bear with a 1st level slot, this means 3 THP. Still a boost to the druid's survival, but not one to overshadow the durability of the full martial classes.

#3 is an easier solve. Multiattack is a non-player creature's analogue to the Extra Attack feature, so we just want to restrict it to level 5 and up, when martials get their Extra Attacks. In that case, we add "If a beast has a multiattack, it can't be used until you reach 5th level in this class" to the Wild Shape rules.

With those tweaks, we have a 1st level spell slot being used to gain a small amount of THP and power up the caster's melee attacks to be on part with a martial's weapon attacks of the same level. I think that's fair for a 1st level slot.


This is broken, Shapechange now can't be disrupted by concentration, AND they can get Guardian of Nature or Conjure Woodland Beings on top of it? Or wildshape into something and have Guardian of Nature AND conjure woodland beings on top? Giant Insect + CWB?

Well, Giant Insect wouldn't be eligible, because it's cast on other creatures, not on the druid. That said, my intention for the feature was mainly for letting the druid have Barkskin or Stoneskin on themself. I went with school restrictions in order to open up more options for the feature, but it looks like that ends up being too wide. In that case, the feature should be narrowed down to only covering Barkskin and Stoneskin.


This will be useful mainly for Dex, since its normally a low stat in most forms that can be taken, however that will not necesarily translate to a higher AC, since most low Dex beasts get Nat armor (I think nat armor is a fixed amount of AC, much like plate, though you can always revert to 10+Dex I think). I think Moons aren't getting that much here(without becoming MAD). I'd make their uses of wildshape last for 1 hour instead of 10 minutes, consider that without some kind of boost, Land Druids can shape more times per day by regainin slots in short rest.

I've always read natural armor values as being like light armor, not heavy. A wolf with natural armor, 13 AC, and a +2 Dex mod doesn't have hide that's almost as tough as ring mail, it has a leather-analogous hide with 11 AC that it then gets a +2 bonus to from its Dex, constructs made of heavy material like Animated Armors or Iron Golems being obvious exceptions.

It can also be useful for boosting the power of their free CR 0 forms. A moon druid with a +2 Str mod can Wild Shape into a CR 0 Cat for free, replace the Cat's -4 Str with their own +2, give it a 1d4 damage die, and suddenly that Cat's claw attack has a +4 to Hit and deals 4 (1d4 + 2) damage instead of 1.

Mainly, though, it just serves to give Moon druids a reason to not dump their physical stats. It's always felt off to me that a druid who feels deeper kinship with beasts and the physical side of nature would optimally dump their physical stats because spending most of their time in Wild Shape makes their own physical stats irrelevant. This keeps Moon from going full MAD, since the ability score scaling from upcasting doesn't apply to substituting their own ability scores for the beast's, but it does give them some reason to spend points on physical attributes without feeling like they're wasted. Hopefully, at least.

[Daghoulish]

Fly on the wall is easy. The fly is CR 0, which would be free to continuously to recast every time the duration is running out. The tiger thing already doesn't work by RAW, as RAW Wild Shape only lasts an hour.

Wildshape by raw does last longer than an hour. By raw it last 1 hour for every 2 druid levels. Meaning at level 10 a druid's wildshape lasts 5 hours.
you can stay in a beast shape for a number of hours
equal to half your druid level (rounded down).

[Great Dragon]

@Wryte
Looks better.
I still kinda see a spell/power conflict even though the Druid has more slots then the Paladin. Sure the Pally maxes out at 5th level and Druid goes all the way to 9th, but unless this Druid is only sacrificing low level slots, they still must choose between an upgraded 5th beast or the effect of a 9th level spell.
Where a normal Druid doesn't, since Wild Shape doesn't cost slots.
Like the regular Druid Shapechanging the 20th lv Fighter into, say, a T-Rex. The Fighter has more attacks this way then a regular T-Rex.
Your Druid could maybe do the same, but then might not be able to also become a CR 9 equivalent creature. IDK, more testing is needed, on my part.

By RAW, fly is out, since nothing a PC can be is smaller than Tiny.

What about creatures that are magical beasts, but listed as Monstrous?
Sacrifice a spell slot to access one of their magical powers?

So, sacrifice a 1st level slot for Wolf, and a 3rd level slot to duplicate the fire breath of the Hellhound?

If so, do you allow this Druid to do both at the same time? I could see doing one of these as a Bonus Action. Keeps the action economy more balanced.

[OverLordOcelot]

Wild Shape: Starting at 2nd level, you can use your action to magically assume the shape of a beast you have seen before by expending a spell slot equal to the beast's CR, rounded up, and which doesn't have a swimming or flying speed.

Aside from the problems other people have pointed out, why are you revising the druid and keeping one of the dumber, more annoying, and more ill designed rules in place? What exactly is the 'shape of a beast you have seen' supposed to accomplish, and why is it only needed from levels 2-6 but not at level 7 and higher? If you are going to do a redesign, you should get rid of the bad rules, and this one has always been pretty glaring.


Fly on the wall is easy. The fly is CR 0, which would be free to continuously to recast every time the duration is running out. The tiger thing already doesn't work by RAW, as RAW Wild Shape only lasts an hour.

It's generally a bad idea to redesign a class around an ability if you're not even sure how that ability works. Wild Shape lasts for half the druid's level, so while it's an hour at first, at higher levels it lasts long enough to be continuous or nearly continuous.

[Wryte]

Wildshape by raw does last longer than an hour. By raw it last 1 hour for every 2 druid levels. Meaning at level 10 a druid's wildshape lasts 5 hours.

So it does. My mistake. I guess I've just never actually seen a druid in any game I've been a part of want to stay in Wild Shape for more than a few minutes at a time, and I've had at least one druid in most parties I've played with or DMed for.


By RAW, fly is out, since nothing a PC can be is smaller than Tiny.


Good catch. The broader point of being able to chain CR 0 forms stands, though.


What about creatures that are magical beasts, but listed as Monstrous?

Those are precisely the inspiration behind giving Moon druids the ability to Wild Shape into monstrosities with beast-level Int scores.


Aside from the problems other people have pointed out, why are you revising the druid and keeping one of the dumber, more annoying, and more ill designed rules in place? What exactly is the 'shape of a beast you have seen' supposed to accomplish, and why is it only needed from levels 2-6 but not at level 7 and higher? If you are going to do a redesign, you should get rid of the bad rules, and this one has always been pretty glaring.

I think the main reason the "you must have seen one" rule is frustrating for druids with the current Wild Shape rules is because each form they can turn into has a hard shelf life based on its CR. It becomes painful not to encounter any CR 3 beasts when you've been in tier 2 or 3 for a while now and all your CR 2 and lower forms are outclassed. With the version I'm proposing, those forms continue to be useful throughout the game, and finding new forms to add to your repertoire becomes a bonus for increasing your range of utility options rather than a bare necessity to make your subclass combat-viable.

[Great Dragon]

Q: giving the other Circle Druids a Nature-based permanent Familiar-like companion (for free) - based on Region/Terrain and/or Subclass - that improves with level - up to a CR 6 - be a better idea? (Allows the sharing of senses, and can be recalled if killed, as per Find Familiar.)
Not sure if allowing it to attack would overshadow the Beast Master Ranger too much.

Looked up the UA Revised Beast Master, and this seems to be pretty much a duplicate of their companion ability.

IDK - maybe my Barkskin Idea would work better...


The broader point of being able to chain CR 0 forms stands, though.

Just pointing out a possible exploit, here.
Unless you include the specific wording, people will try to use a 9th level slot to become a Medium sized cat (+2 Str, Dex, Con and like 1d8 +6 damage) and then maintain that with their 0 level spell action each time it expires!

(I hate being limited to my phone!!)

[OverLordOcelot]

I think the main reason the "you must have seen one" rule is frustrating for druids with the current Wild Shape rules is because each form they can turn into has a hard shelf life based on its CR. It becomes painful not to encounter any CR 3 beasts when you've been in tier 2 or 3 for a while now and all your CR 2 and lower forms are outclassed. With the version I'm proposing, those forms continue to be useful throughout the game, and finding new forms to add to your repertoire becomes a bonus for increasing your range of utility options rather than a bare necessity to make your subclass combat-viable.

You haven't actually given any reason to keep that bad rule in, you've just said that you think it's kind of less bad with your other changes. Again, why retain an awful rule that doesn't serve any useful purpose instead of just ditching it when you're radically overhauling the class. If you think your shifting is reasonably balanced, then just let druids assume any form and avoid the potential for an annoying argument. If it's somehow actually balanced by limiting it to certain animals, then you should make the balancing limit explicit instead of weirdly vague. And offer some explanation of why a higher level druid would refuse to show a lower level druid any useful animal forms as part of their training, because I've always found that implication of the rule rather odd.

Want an example of how stupid the rule is? You're incorrect with your reasoning about the rule, as your 'it becomes painful' situation simply doesn't happen under RAW. It doesn't matter at all whether you encounter CR3 beasts, and whether you've encountered CR2 beasts only matters at exactly level 6. At level 7 druids get 4th level spells, one of which is polymorph, which allows the druid to turn an ally into a beast of any CR up to their level and lacks the 'must have seen the creature' requirement. So at level 7, a druid can decide they want to see any beast once per day (up to 2 or 3 times per day at higher levels), and so can easily fill in their wild shape portfolio with every single beast they want, up to a CR equal to a friend's level (or their own level if they possess a mirror).