Mordenkainen's Elves and Drow

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes has an entire chapter dedicated to explicating the history of the conflict between elves and drow and how that impacts the elven mindset. In essence, the god Corellon Larethian exists in constant flux and change, shapeshifting and wandering as they please, and Lolth betrayed him by convincing the early elves to adopt more permanent forms to achieve greatness, and then she tried to stab him. Corellon won't forgive the elves for their "original sin" of abandoning endless change in favor of permanence as long as Lolth exists, and so elven souls are always reincarnating, with the other gods in the Seldarine giving them a rest in their realms before sending them back, cleansed of their pain into a new elven life, sometimes reincarnating in different worlds, like an elf from Oerth reincarnating in Faerun. This fills elves with a sense of melancholy because of Corellon's rejection. Meanwhile, the eladrin are essentially elves who, through lifelong exposure to the Feywild, have begun to regain some of the changeability of their ancestors by shifting form and personality with the seasons.

I have VERY mixed feelings about this, to say the least. On the one hand, I like the sort of unifying sense of mythology it gives elves, and how it informs the elven mindset, especially since it recaptures some of that sense of melancholy you see in Tolkien's original elves. Out of all the folks you can play as in D&D, I've always had the hardest time wrapping my head around how to roleplay an elf, being chaotic-minded but taking "the long view," etc. But at the same time, I feel like it limits you in terms of what kind of characters you can play as an elf. The elven culture is one that desperately wants to reunite with its creator, and that means, at least from my perspective, abandoning the permanence of form that Lolth convinced the early elves to try. So it seems that being Lawful is the antithesis of the elven mindset: why would an elf be a paladin, making oaths and following an inflexible code, when Corellon made and broke oaths as they pleased? Why would an elf be a monk, following a lawful spiritual path to enlightenment, when the elven idea of enlightenment is the antithesis of a lawful spirituality? Why would there be Lawful elven gods like Vandria Gilmadrith or Darahl Firecloak, when accepting lawfulness into the elven spirit was so offensive to Corellon? Why would an elf want to be lawful when that takes them further away from Corellon's salvation?

Furthermore, I have mixed feelings about how this depicts Corellon: on the one hand, this is probably the most personality they've ever had in D&D outside of "the elf god," with a nice infusion of a slightly alien mindset. But Corellon's treatment of the elves for "rejecting" them by listening to Lolth and becoming more permanent doesn't seem very CG from my perspective. In fact, it almost seems just as cruel as Lolth can be, since Corellon won't forgive the elves unless Lolth is destroyed and the elves entirely abandon permanence, and barring something that would take an entire campaign to do, that's not gonna happen. And again, if lawfulness is so offensive to Corellon, why does he tolerate the presence of Lawful elven gods?

What do you folks think? Does this unifying mindset make elves more interesting? Does Corellon seem kind of a jerk to you? How would you roleplay a lawful elf?

[Unoriginal]

I have VERY mixed feelings about this, to say the least. On the one hand, I like the sort of unifying sense of mythology it gives elves, and how it informs the elven mindset, especially since it recaptures some of that sense of melancholy you see in Tolkien's original elves. Out of all the folks you can play as in D&D, I've always had the hardest time wrapping my head around how to roleplay an elf, being chaotic-minded but taking "the long view," etc. But at the same time, I feel like it limits you in terms of what kind of characters you can play as an elf. The elven culture is one that desperately wants to reunite with its creator, and that means, at least from my perspective, abandoning the permanence of form that Lolth convinced the early elves to try. So it seems that being Lawful is the antithesis of the elven mindset: why would an elf be a paladin, making oaths and following an inflexible code, when Corellon made and broke oaths as they pleased? Why would an elf be a monk, following a lawful spiritual path to enlightenment, when the elven idea of enlightenment is the antithesis of a lawful spirituality? Why would there be Lawful elven gods like Vandria Gilmadrith or Darahl Firecloak, when accepting lawfulness into the elven spirit was so offensive to Corellon? Why would an elf want to be lawful when that takes them further away from Corellon's salvation?


Elves are still individuals with their own ideas and personal goals, and for all their faults, Corellon would never have a problem with someone going "I want to be really devoted to this" as long as it didn't harm others or Corellon.

Furthermore, what is presented in the Mordenkainen's is a myth, not something all elves know to be true.

Plus, not all elves care about pleasing Corellon. Most Eladrin don't care about returning to Elf Heaven, for example.

Also there is nothing that says that Corellon wants the elves to abandon permanence. They have never been interested in guiding the elves to do anything (which is exactly why Lolth won so many over).

Elf culture is also far less melancholic and Corellon-forgiveness-focused that what you're proposing, according to the book. Sure, it's a longing, but there are tons of other things to do, and they're not mostly chaotic for nothing.



Furthermore, I have mixed feelings about how this depicts Corellon: on the one hand, this is probably the most personality they've ever had in D&D outside of "the elf god," with a nice infusion of a slightly alien mindset. But Corellon's treatment of the elves for "rejecting" them by listening to Lolth and becoming more permanent doesn't seem very CG from my perspective. In fact, it almost seems just as cruel as Lolth can be, since Corellon won't forgive the elves unless Lolth is destroyed and the elves entirely abandon permanence, and barring something that would take an entire campaign to do, that's not gonna happen. And again, if lawfulness is so offensive to Corellon, why does he tolerate the presence of Lawful elven gods?


Corellon doesn't mind lawfulness, they just don't like when people squander their demigodhood due to short-sighted anger at him.

Also, sure, it was cruel. But the thing is, alignment is a description of one's typical behavior. Nothing stops a lawful good person from cheating at cards once, or a neutral good person from being cruel to an hated enemy who killed the neutral good person's family. Exceptional circumstances aren't typical behavior, and while Corellon is chaotic and good, they can still do **** moves from time to time. The same way than Lolth can be benevolent in exceptional moments.



IMO I like this myth. I put the elves in perspective, and of as far as "fall from heaven" narratives go I think it's a pretty good one, as the elves are the ones actually responsible for it.

[Rukelnikov]

As Unoriginal said, not all elves may want to please Corellon, some may look for a different kind of enlightenment (like monkhood), others may not care for it at all.

Regarding Paladin's, barring 4e which idk about, I think Corellon never had Paladin's before that, 2e Paladin was strictly Human, and 3.e Paladin had to be Lawful while Corellon was Chaotic, thus they couldn't have him as patron. He did accept Holy Lliberators though.

Regarding Corellon's personality, there's more of it than you are saying, and he can come as some of a jerk many times. For instance Corellon cursed Lafarallin, an elven ranger, for lack of mercy, and then basically forgot about it, thousands of years later, he met him again, and remembered and realized the lack of mercy on his part and lifted the curse. Also some of the Drow, the followers of Elistrae mainly, where forgiven by Corellon when his daughter died, and became Dark Elves once again, which is what Drows were before the curse.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

If that's the case, with elves going off on their own paths and not being interested in achieving dissolution of form as a culture, then how do you roleplay such an elf without just acting like a human with pointy ears or a half-elf or something? :smallconfused:

[Constructman]

If that's the case, with elves going off on their own paths and not being interested in achieving dissolution of form as a culture, then how do you roleplay such an elf without just acting like a human with pointy ears or a half-elf or something? :smallconfused:

You're still a partially fey creature whose life is measured in centuries, not decades. If you're an older elf, over 200 years of age, your perception of the passage of time might be warped compared to that of a human's. You may struggle with tight deadlines; why stress yourself finishing a report in two weeks when you could take two months, or even two years, to write it at your leisure? You can more easily plan for the long term; you'll be more motivated to commit to a decades-long pursuit because you'll still be fit and spry when it comes to fruition. In your nightly Trance, you've started seeing visions of not just the life you have lived, but of lives yet to come. And if you've scorned the love of your own kind and instead of borne fruit with a human, you''ll have to deal with the knowledge that you'll more likely than not outlive your own child, and perhaps their children too.

If you're a younger elf under 100, these eccentricities may not have yet developed in you. If you were raised in an elf community but for some reason had to flee, you'll be going into the world naive and perhaps not used to true responsibility. However, if you've spent your formative years among the shorter-lived races, your views and beliefs will reflect the culture you grew up in, whether they may be the simple pleasures of Halfling life, the breakneck ambition of Humanity, or the fastidious perfectionism of Dwarvenkind. But in that case, you may not know how to control the Trance, so your nightly reflections are wild and unfocused; or maybe you don't even know that it exists, so you foolishly commit yourself to sleep every night only to be tormented by vivid nightmares, which steadily wear down at your mental health. Sure, your friends and family will do what they can to support you, but it's not a guarantee that they can meaningfully help you with the problems unique to your species. And you'll have to face the fact that when the time comes for you to take your steps into true adulthood, your peers may be old and wizened, or even dead. How do you deal with that?

[Rukelnikov]

If that's the case, with elves going off on their own paths and not being interested in achieving dissolution of form as a culture, then how do you roleplay such an elf without just acting like a human with pointy ears or a half-elf or something? :smallconfused:

The character I played the most is an elf, Rhistel Amarillis, he's my first 3e char, played him from around 2001 till a couple years ago. He has had a long life in game, and many of his decisions and objectives were marked by his elven nature. By all accounts he was an elven supremacist fanatic, taking as many elven prcs as he could (Bladesinger, Ruathar, Champion of Corellon Larethian), and upholding elven ideals as much as he could. But eventually had a crisis of faith...

The party started as city guards of Silverymoon, eventually became an elite group, and under orders from Alustriel we did stuff all over the marches...

One day Alustriel told my PC that his memories had been altered for his own safety. DM changed part of my background to where I was actually an Amarillis (originally a Laelithar) exiled to the school of magic of Silverymoon for protection some 50 years ago when the settlement my father was Laranlor ("ruler") of was taken by Fey'ri, my tutor in the school was actually my tutor since the settlement, and had been planning to take it back since then. Around lvl 10, with the help of some Knights in Silver, and some denizens of the forest, we reclaimed the settlement. At the time Rhistel was circa 130 yo.

By his 150 or so, when he was finally able to return to Faerun from some epic adventures, he decided to take a breather for some decades and spend part of his fortune to rebuild the settlement which was in terrible conditions, some of the party joined him and they revived the small village. It housed a dormant Mythal which a High Cleric of Mystra (a party member) and me restored with the help of Alustriel, it was very much a magic elven settlement.
From here on it was mostly DM + 2 (the High Cleric and me)

Game "changed" at that point, problems were more political in nature, combat was extremely scarce, and we had more diplomatic encounters than anything else. 5 years or so after this, the village had more than 500 people living in it, and a second village had started growing nearby. But there were two large elven groups in the region with whom we were having diplomatic problems. One was by all means a kingdom, many large cities, population in the tenths of thousands, lots of trade outside the High Forest, etc. They basically wanted us to bend the knee, wasn't gonna happen they were too "tainted" by non-elven customs (for my PC at least, High Cleric didn't like one of their NPCs). The other where basically an entire elven house that did a ritual to enter stasis during the crown wars, expecting that by the time they emerged from it thousands of years later, the landscape would be more favorable for them. They were pretty much an elven armada and had a mentality like they were still living during the crown wars, in some ways they were relics of the past and didn't understand how the world had changed, wanting to turn the high forest elves to be more serious/responsible and less "tree hugging hippies".

And one day a Tulani (highest type of Eladrin) appears in the entrance to the village saying that Corellon has decreed the High Forest elves couldn't be divided, and would have to go to war to decide which of the different "elven ways" present at the time would be the one the elves of the High Forest would be united under.

This caused the crisis of faith of my PC, on one hand my PC had always heeded Corellon's call before, on the other hand he was a protector of the Elves, killing his siblings would have been an atrocity, reminiscent of the crown wars of old, and all the bad stuff they brought to the elves. We eventually moved from the High Forest to avoid going to war, and founded a kingdom nearby in an unclaimed piece of land. Having disobeyed Corellon's call to war, Rhistel's world was turned upside down, knowing not where to go from there.

For 15 years, the kingdom gradually become less elven and less magical, to the point my character didn't like ruling it anymore, it wasn't a magical elven village, it was closer to a small human kingdom with a strong presence of elves. Destiny called again, a priestess of Lolth (passing for one of Eilistraee for 2 decades) kidnapped the High Cleric's sons, we chased it across the planes and ultimately failed and where thrusted to a different sphere

We spent 30 years or so in a planet without magic or beings capable of speech, until a spelljammer ship came and then another 70 years travelling thru spheres and phlogiston until we finally made it back. We were basically retired all that time, mainly learned the ship engineering trade and lead "normal" lives inside a huge ship-city.

Once back there we found out the small kingdom had become a full flourishing one(with only faint traces of its elven roots), where Rhistel's half-elf son ruled with an iron fist, and his sisters were vying for power. Rhistel had a vision some years after they were born that his sons and daughters would wage war against each other and that he would kill his eldest. So he tried to stay away from the conflict, fearing the vision would come to pass. Eventually one of his daughters killed her brother, and that triggered a full on civil war, another sister seceded part of the kingdom, and the son of the now dead king seceded another part of the kingdom (DM was very into ASoIaF at that point).

After failing to convince them to solve the dispute without bloodshed, he decided to only intervene to prevent either of them from killing another, using contingencies, time stop and stuff (by that point I already had access to Elven High Magic). The one he saved cursed him for doing so, saying he denied him a warrior's death. So Rhistel decided to leave Dragon's Will (the kingdom) to its fate until his daughters and grandson stop vying for power over it, their lifespan will probably be shorter than his (barring violent death :P).

At this point Rhistel is around 270 yo

[Waazraath]

Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes

What do you folks think? Does this unifying mindset make elves more interesting? Does Corellon seem kind of a jerk to you? How would you roleplay a lawful elf?

Totally agree that it's a bit weak, and at points inconsistent. I even think you give it too much credit, with the slightly alien mindset. The entire story is just a bit old testament (without the redemption part of the new), mixed with some ancient greek mythology. We have an angry creator god who punishes his entire people (and their children) for a transgression stimulated by the 'first' of the 'angels'; gods created from the blood of their father; gods with human characteristics, including all the human flaws. Nothing too alien about it. The writers took the easy approach, havent been too creative, and the result is more a god of spite then a caring good creator god.

Hell, Tolkien did this 100x better, and that is almost a century ago.

[Luccan]

Honestly, even taking away the spurning the elves thing, Corellon still comes across as a jerk. They're a "free-spirit" in that they're completely unreliable and lack focus (to what would be debilitating levels for a mortal), at least according to what we get from from Mordenkainen's.

I'll also chime in with what people said when the books first came out: making every elf ever a victim of Corellon and Lolth's quarrel, even in realms that were supposed to be untouched by them isn't cool. It robs a lot of settings of their independence. Now, if an elf in a Spelljammer or similar setting-crossing game believed that to be the case and then somehow ran into, say, a displaced Eberron Drow or an extremely lucky Athasian elf, that could be very interesting. But I don't want all elves in every setting to have something to do with a single pantheon. Isn't it enough that Mordy, Ed Greenwizard, and that one from Dragonlance are apparently drinking buddies? Does every other setting really need to be connected too?

As for how I would run a Lawful Elf in response to this being canon in a game, though? Assuming the character knew the general idea: "I don't see our singular form as a burden. Corellon claims to stand for freedom, yet they abandoned us when we sought to make our own choices? And we are scorned until the nigh-invulnerable dread-spider is slain? I think our kind was given an important lesson that day: we cannot rely on singular strength. Elven kind must stand together, because our creator will not stand for us. We may well slay Lolth if we do. And when Corellon seeks to welcome us back, we will know not to trust his "gifts". Corellon's freedom is simply a gilded cage." They'd essentially be anti-Corellon, but pro-Elven unity. I would see them trying to open up negotiations with Drow and destabilizing Lolth's hold over them, in order to replace their backstabbing society with something more sane. They'd also be very much for individual choice, with the belief that the best choice is standing together even through disagreement. But, naturally, wanting to avoid Corellon's mistakes, would try to be understanding of other elves not really getting it.

I imagine the character to be somewhat prone to anger, but idealistic. Honest, almost to the point of naivety. Far more dependable and dedicated than most elves. This could be shown by being single classed and not using a sort-of multiclass archetype like Eldritch Knight, Arcane Trickster, or Bladesinger. Probably an Evoker or Abjurer, though Enchanter could work to demonstrate force of will. I see all high mental stats on the character, but Int and Cha over Wis. Shoot now I really wanna play this guy.

[Unoriginal]

I think Corellon coming out as being a jerk was kinda the point. They're not completely a jerk, of course, but they're a wild trickster and never intended to create the elves, so for the first time they had to actually take care for other beings, and understandably they had no way to know how to do that. Problem is that rather than grow up from the experience they just kept being the same carfree trickster and only interacted with their lil' bloodspawns when it pleased their whims, while the elves needed guidance and attention.


Totally agree that it's a bit weak, and at points inconsistent. I even think you give it too much credit, with the slightly alien mindset. The entire story is just a bit old testament (without the redemption part of the new), mixed with some ancient greek mythology. We have an angry creator god who punishes his entire people (and their children) for a transgression stimulated by the 'first' of the 'angels'; gods created from the blood of their father; gods with human characteristics, including all the human flaws. Nothing too alien about it. The writers took the easy approach, havent been too creative, and the result is more a god of spite then a caring good creator god.

Hell, Tolkien did this 100x better, and that is almost a century ago.

Tolkien's version of the fall of the elves is "exceptionaly talented wacko is ****hurt that his bling got stolen by not!Satan, who was not!God's number 2 until he rebelled and spread discord, so he convinces a large number to follow him and together they slaughter boatmakers to steal the boats and pursue not!Satan."

Tolkien deserves credit for his worldbuilding, but that's part is not the most original. In fact "part old testament, part Greek myth" cover it pretty well, with some later Christian legends and Norse myths thrown in.

[2D8HP]

Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes has an entire chapter dedicated to explicating the history of the conflict between elves and drow....
What do you folks think? Does this unifying mindset make elves more interesting?....


Yes, very interesting and alien.


...Does Corellon seem kind of a jerk to you?


A bit.


How would you roleplay a lawful elf?


Playing Lawful isn't hard, Darahl Tilvenar (god/ess of fire, earth, and metalwork), and Vandria Gilmadrith (god/ess of war, grief, justice, and vigalance) are both Lawful Neutral, plus there's other non-chaotic god/esses, so that doesn't seem a stretch, but playing an Elf looks hard, because of how alien they are.

With my DM's hat on I welcome the Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes lore, but for PC's I mentally inhabit my PC's a bit more (and for a typically longer stretch) than any NPC I have as a DM, and how different they are makes it harder.

Mechanically Elves (especially wood elves) are my favorite race, but unlike Dwarves, and Halflings - which look easy, the Elvish attitudes, and experiences - the past life memories, gender fluidity, "long view", and melancholy all look really hard to "grok" to me - and honestly I don't try.

[Waazraath]

Tolkien's version of the fall of the elves is "exceptionaly talented wacko is ****hurt that his bling got stolen by not!Satan, who was not!God's number 2 until he rebelled and spread discord, so he convinces a large number to follow him and together they slaughter boatmakers to steal the boats and pursue not!Satan."

Tolkien deserves credit for his worldbuilding, but that's part is not the most original. In fact "part old testament, part Greek myth" cover it pretty well, with some later Christian legends and Norse myths thrown in.

In essence, you are right, though it should be added that not!Satan not only took his bling, but also killed his dad. But the thing is: Tolkien wrote it down beautifully, and added quite some new stuff (or mixed a lot of different old stuff if you like), with creativity, in an age where there was hardly fantasy around. His oldest writings are literally over a century old. A lot of stuff has been written since then. That makes it all the more weird that in Mordenkainen's, Lolth is suddenly the not!Satan that was elf!God's number 2 ('although privileged to be elevated above the rest of the primal elves'). There's nothing new or interesting in it, as far as I can see. And this is new to the d&d canon, isn't it? It just feels so uninspired.

[Constructman]

That makes it all the more weird that in Mordenkainen's, Lolth is suddenly the not!Satan that was elf!God's number 2 ('although privileged to be elevated above the rest of the primal elves').

That's been the case since 2e (Demihuman Deities, 1998).

[Waazraath]

That's been the case since 2e (Demihuman Deities, 1998).

Really? Didn't know that, thanks! Thought it was a new addition.

[Unoriginal]

I think in 3.X Lolth was Corellon's wife before their falling out.

[Sigreid]

I look at it this way, Mordenkainen is a man of vast intelligence and experience, but he's still just one mortal man. He's not a god who witnessed the birth of creation. He's not omniscient or all knowing. What's in that book is history and politics, as best he can piece together and is probably more reflective of what the elves he's encountered believe than universal truth.

[Rukelnikov]

I think in 3.X Lolth was Corellon's wife before their falling out.

She was her consort, so more or less the same, and was called Araushnee.


I look at it this way, Mordenkainen is a man of vast intelligence and experience, but he's still just one mortal man. He's not a god who witnessed the birth of creation. He's not omniscient or all knowing. What's in that book is history and politics, as best he can piece together and is probably more reflective of what the elves he's encountered believe than universal truth.

Yeah, I think its kind of like the lore of most WoD books, they are not told by an omniscient narrator, but from the point of view of a knowledgeable character, so not everything in them is necessarily true or completely correct.

[Unoriginal]

I look at it this way, Mordenkainen is a man of vast intelligence and experience, but he's still just one mortal man. He's not a god who witnessed the birth of creation. He's not omniscient or all knowing. What's in that book is history and politics, as best he can piece together and is probably more reflective of what the elves he's encountered believe than universal truth.



Yeah, I think its kind of like the lore of most WoD books, they are not told by an omniscient narrator, but from the point of view of a knowledgeable character, so not everything in them is necessarily true or completely correct.

The Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes even point out the flaws in Mordenkainen's thinking.

Basically all his personal notes show his biases, too. Hell, the guy looked at halflings and decided to write down "they aren't lucky". Which we know is objectively false.

[Rukelnikov]

The Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes even point out the flaws in Mordenkainen's thinking.

Basically all his personal notes show his biases, too. Hell, the guy looked at halflings and decided to write down "they aren't lucky". Which we know is objectively false.

You're right, then only his notes are are from his POV.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Elves are still individuals with their own ideas and personal goals, and for all their faults, Corellon would never have a problem with someone going "I want to be really devoted to this" as long as it didn't harm others or Corellon.

Furthermore, what is presented in the Mordenkainen's is a myth, not something all elves know to be true.

Plus, not all elves care about pleasing Corellon. Most Eladrin don't care about returning to Elf Heaven, for example.

Also there is nothing that says that Corellon wants the elves to abandon permanence. They have never been interested in guiding the elves to do anything (which is exactly why Lolth won so many over).

Elf culture is also far less melancholic and Corellon-forgiveness-focused that what you're proposing, according to the book. Sure, it's a longing, but there are tons of other things to do, and they're not mostly chaotic for nothing.
That's a fair point. Assuming elven culture is a monolith would be, like, the most lawful thing possible, so it makes sense that individual elves have individual ideas about spirituality and what they pursue...the book even calls out Evermeet as a specific example of the elves making the most of their situation. They can go there and essentially enjoy the closest to a return to Corellon's glory that mortals can manage and can stay there as long as they want...

As for how I would run a Lawful Elf in response to this being canon in a game, though? Assuming the character knew the general idea: "I don't see our singular form as a burden. Corellon claims to stand for freedom, yet they abandoned us when we sought to make our own choices? And we are scorned until the nigh-invulnerable dread-spider is slain? I think our kind was given an important lesson that day: we cannot rely on singular strength. Elven kind must stand together, because our creator will not stand for us. We may well slay Lolth if we do. And when Corellon seeks to welcome us back, we will know not to trust his "gifts". Corellon's freedom is simply a gilded cage." They'd essentially be anti-Corellon, but pro-Elven unity. I would see them trying to open up negotiations with Drow and destabilizing Lolth's hold over them, in order to replace their backstabbing society with something more sane. They'd also be very much for individual choice, with the belief that the best choice is standing together even through disagreement. But, naturally, wanting to avoid Corellon's mistakes, would try to be understanding of other elves not really getting it.

I imagine the character to be somewhat prone to anger, but idealistic. Honest, almost to the point of naivety. Far more dependable and dedicated than most elves. This could be shown by being single classed and not using a sort-of multiclass archetype like Eldritch Knight, Arcane Trickster, or Bladesinger. Probably an Evoker or Abjurer, though Enchanter could work to demonstrate force of will. I see all high mental stats on the character, but Int and Cha over Wis. Shoot now I really wanna play this guy.
Dang, me too! :smallcool:

I think Corellon coming out as being a jerk was kinda the point. They're not completely a jerk, of course, but they're a wild trickster and never intended to create the elves, so for the first time they had to actually take care for other beings, and understandably they had no way to know how to do that. Problem is that rather than grow up from the experience they just kept being the same carefree trickster and only interacted with their lil' bloodspawns when it pleased their whims, while the elves needed guidance and attention.
Huh...that's a fair point too. :smallconfused:

Especially since, from what it indicates in the text, the other Seldarine do their best to pick up Corellon's slack, comforting and sheltering elven souls in their realms until they're ready to be reborn. And the other Seldarine are individuals too.

Tolkien's version of the fall of the elves is "exceptionaly talented wacko is ****hurt that his bling got stolen by not!Satan, who was not!God's number 2 until he rebelled and spread discord, so he convinces a large number to follow him and together they slaughter boatmakers to steal the boats and pursue not!Satan."

Tolkien deserves credit for his worldbuilding, but that's part is not the most original. In fact "part old testament, part Greek myth" cover it pretty well, with some later Christian legends and Norse myths thrown in.
Having taken a college course on Tolkien, I can say that's pretty accurate. :smallamused:

[Sigreid]

In essence, you are right, though it should be added that not!Satan not only took his bling, but also killed his dad. But the thing is: Tolkien wrote it down beautifully, and added quite some new stuff (or mixed a lot of different old stuff if you like), with creativity, in an age where there was hardly fantasy around. His oldest writings are literally over a century old. A lot of stuff has been written since then. That makes it all the more weird that in Mordenkainen's, Lolth is suddenly the not!Satan that was elf!God's number 2 ('although privileged to be elevated above the rest of the primal elves'). There's nothing new or interesting in it, as far as I can see. And this is new to the d&d canon, isn't it? It just feels so uninspired.

I've heard from a few scholarly sources that Tolkien, much like C.S. Lewis was intentionally taking the Christ story and spinning it into their fantasy setting as a way to make it less boring and more accessible. Never met either of them so I don't know how true that is but as I understand it they were in fact buddies so it would kind of make sense that The Lord of the Rings and The Chronicles of Narnia would have resulted from similar perspectives and quite possibly the same conversations.

Irrelevant side note: One of the things I've heard that true or not it makes me happy to believe it is that they were notorious for getting drunk together and chasing people around London with battle axes while wearing viking style helmets. Don't tell me if it's not true, I WANT to believe. :smallbiggrin:

[JackPhoenix]

Basically all his personal notes show his biases, too. Hell, the guy looked at halflings and decided to write down "they aren't lucky". Which we know is objectively false.

I don't know, I wouldn't call anyone who came out of design process looking like this (https://media-waterdeep.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/6/256/420/618/636271789409776659.png) "lucky".

[Luccan]

I don't know, I wouldn't call anyone who came out of design process looking like this (https://media-waterdeep.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/6/256/420/618/636271789409776659.png) "lucky".

I know what picture that is, you can't make me look at it. Everyone knows it's an abomination.

[Millstone85]

My wood elf, Naeren Mellerelel, see his reincarnation cycle as an incentive to fully dedicate himself to a certain path, knowing he will get to explore a different one in his next life. He regards the elven gods as guides on these various paths, and is currently following Solonor Thelandira, god of archery. This view largely comes from his tribe holding druidic beliefs in addition to its faith in the Seldarine.

[Irennan]

As Unoriginal said, not all elves may want to please Corellon, some may look for a different kind of enlightenment (like monkhood), others may not care for it at all.

Regarding Paladin's, barring 4e which idk about, I think Corellon never had Paladin's before that, 2e Paladin was strictly Human, and 3.e Paladin had to be Lawful while Corellon was Chaotic, thus they couldn't have him as patron. He did accept Holy Lliberators though.

Regarding Corellon's personality, there's more of it than you are saying, and he can come as some of a jerk many times. For instance Corellon cursed Lafarallin, an elven ranger, for lack of mercy, and then basically forgot about it, thousands of years later, he met him again, and remembered and realized the lack of mercy on his part and lifted the curse. Also some of the Drow, the followers of Elistrae mainly, where forgiven by Corellon when his daughter died, and became Dark Elves once again, which is what Drows were before the curse.

Nah, only a few hundreds of drow (out of the few thousands of followers that Eilistraee has) were "accepted" by Corellon, and only after some mage's spell forced a physical change down their throats. He sent the message that, no matter what a drow does, unless they "undrowify" themselves, he won't accept them. Now that Eilistraee has returned during the Second Sundering (or merely recovered, rather than returned, if you go by Ed Greenwood's lore--that has her surviving, if unable to function as a goddess for a century or so), both the goddess and her followers are still drow, and Corellon gives 0 f***s about them (just like he did when Eilistraee fought alone and risked everything in a battle that should have definitely seen him involved alongside her--his own daughter).

Not only that, but after those few drow were "accepted", Corellon's angels literally said "ok, that settles everything, all the rest of the drow are unwilling and to be cast down." In short, he could accept those few drow who had been transformed, but the rest of the race was to be discarded to him.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I know what picture that is, you can't make me look at it. Everyone knows it's an abomination.
I never got that visceral reaction. I always felt people were overreacting...:smallconfused:

I know now I wanna play a wood elf Forge Cleric of Darahl Firecloak or Grave Cleric of Vandria Gilmadrith...both are cool!

[Unoriginal]

Can't say the Mordenkainen's improved the qualify of Halfling artwork, tough.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Can't say the Mordenkainen's improved the qualify of Halfling artwork, tough.

I mean, I never said the art was GOOD. :smalltongue:

[Luccan]

I never got that visceral reaction. I always felt people were overreacting...:smallconfused:

I know now I wanna play a wood elf Forge Cleric of Darahl Firecloak or Grave Cleric of Vandria Gilmadrith...both are cool!

I mean, I mainly talk about it that way as a joke. But the art is pretty bad

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Bit more FR specific but are there elves who worship outside the Seldarine? How does that fit into this paradigm, especially since some elves can say that theyre actually OLDER than some gods (looking at YOU, Kelemvor!)?

[Unoriginal]

Can't say the Mordenkainen's improved the qualify of Halfling artwork, tough.

Damn, I meant to say "can't say it DIDN'T improve"

[Millstone85]

Bit more FR specific but are there elves who worship outside the Seldarine?That appears to be the case.

Many elves worship deities in the Faerûnian pantheon, including Mielikki (and the unicorn goddess Lurue), Silvanus, and Sune. In recent years, some elves have found delight in the worship of Lathander, as well.


How does that fit into this paradigm, especially since some elves can say that theyre actually OLDER than some gods (looking at YOU, Kelemvor!)?Jergal was once Faerûn's one true god of strife, death, and the dead. Feeling One Punch Man levels of boredom, he let a trio of wannabes claim pieces of his portfolio. Bane got strife, though he prefers "tyranny". Bhaal got death, though he prefers "murder". Myrkul got the dead, but later lost them to Kelemvor. An elf could see plenty in such a tale of divine legacy. Like, Kelemvor is young, but his power isn't, much as with an elven soul.


Damn, I meant to say "can't say it DIDN'T improve"Well, I don't find this (https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/wee8SuPs6VAb6OktyXQPME2pHeI=/0x0:1041x1372/1200x0/filters:focal(0x0:1041x1372):no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/10814343/Screenshot_2018_05_10_09.01.36.png) to be any better.

[Unoriginal]

Jergal was once Faerûn's one true god of strife, death, and the dead. Feeling One Punch Man levels of boredom, he let a trio of wannabes claim pieces of his portfolio. Bane got strife, though he prefers "tyranny". Bhaal got death, though he prefers "murder". Myrkul got the dead, but later lost them to Kelemvor. An elf could see plenty in such a tale of divine legacy. Like, Kelemvor is young, but his power isn't, much as with an elven soul.

Fun fact: Bhaal, Bane and Myrkul are not only alive, but on Faerun right now. More precisely, they're hiding in Baldur's Gate.

Apparently when Ao said "now the gods stop ****ing the world, 'kay?", those three idiots went "nu-hu, you're not my real overdeity" and decided to incarne themselves. And Ao decided "meh, their loss".

While still beings of great personal power, divine and capable of granting spells to Clerics, they can now be killed by mortals without going through all the usual divinity-slaying hassle.

At least, that's what Chris Perkins said on the subject.

[Millstone85]

snipLa, la, la, I can't hear you!

Everybody knows the epic tale of the miniature giant space hamster who slew the guardian of the Throne of Bhaal, going for the eyes and everything, and allowed one of the evil god's more humane children to become the god of mourning and righteous butt-kicking.

[2D8HP]

I think the 3.5 version of Drow of the Underdark gave a few origin theories. One of them was that the first elves were drow. Some of them became insolent, so Lloth zapped their skin white and sent them to the surface. Want to transform? Not up in here you aint.


Drow the original Elves? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?475794-Drow-the-original-Elves)

[Millstone85]

I think the 3.5 version of Drow of the Underdark gave a few origin theories. One of them was that the first elves were drow. Some of them became insolent, so Lloth zapped their skin white and sent them to the surface. Want to transform? Not up in here you aint.I had to Google that one.


This is the rarest of the drow creation myths, but one that is catching on swiftly with the younger generations. It mirrors the Drow Exodus tale, with one fundamental difference.
According to this version of the myth, the elves were initially an underground race, and when Lolth chose only the strongest and most skilled as her followers, they banished the weak elves to the surface. Those who espouse this version claim that all elves originally shared the dark skin of the drow, and that it was Lolth who cursed the surface elves to appear as feeble and weak without as they were within.
It seems remarkable that a myth that places the drow in the dominant position, historically and militarily, hasn’t become the standard for the race, and yet this is by far the least widespread of the drow creation myths. The only theory as to why this might be—or at least the only one that makes sense—suggests that the Church of Lolth deliberately repressed it to maintain the drow’s resentment of the surface elves. It’s much easier to ignore an enemy you’ve already defeated, after all. Eventually, after so many years of suppression, the myth was all but forgotten, but it has recently been unearthed and latched onto by a few among the current generation.
It is also worth mentioning that some conspiracy-minded scholars believe that the elves are aware of this myth, and that they too have made efforts to keep its existence secret from the other surface races. Those scholars cannot help but wonder: If the elves want such a “ridiculous” myth kept silent, perhaps it’s not quite so ridiculous at all. . . .
What I would do is say that when the primal elves listened to Lolth and took on more permanent forms, that's when the division into aquatic, surface and underground elves occured, as each chose their favorite biome. And when conflict came, most of the elves who stayed on Lolth's side were of the subterranean variety. As a result, she retained dominion over this form, while Corellon did get to more thoroughly banish elven souls by having them reincarnate as dark elves.

[Irennan]

Fun fact: Bhaal, Bane and Myrkul are not only alive, but on Faerun right now. More precisely, they're hiding in Baldur's Gate.

Apparently when Ao said "now the gods stop ****ing the world, 'kay?", those three idiots went "nu-hu, you're not my real overdeity" and decided to incarne themselves. And Ao decided "meh, their loss".

While still beings of great personal power, divine and capable of granting spells to Clerics, they can now be killed by mortals without going through all the usual divinity-slaying hassle.

At least, that's what Chris Perkins said on the subject.

Wow, where did he say this?

[Unoriginal]

Wow, where did he say this?

The "Lore You Should Know" episode called "The Evil Three".

[Archpaladin Zousha]

This...makes me rather disappointed, as I am planning on playing through Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights 2, which means that all my efforts to get rid of Bhaal's essence and snuffing out Myrkul's soul in MotB are all for nothing. :smallannoyed:

[Rukelnikov]

This...makes me rather disappointed, as I am planning on playing through Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights 2, which means that all my efforts to get rid of Bhaal's essence and snuffing out Myrkul's soul in MotB are all for nothing. :smallannoyed:

Well... gods in Faerun don't stay dead for long generally.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Well... gods in Faerun don't stay dead for long generally.
I know that, but at least with Myrkul it's like "HOW?! I WENT TO YOUR CORPSE IN THE ASTRAL PLANE AND PUT YOUR SOUL TO ETERNAL REST BY TURNING YOUR OWN CURSE AGAINST YOU AND THEN ENDED SAID CURSE ONCE AND FOR ALL! WHAT WAS LEFT OF YOU TO RESURRECT?!" :smallfurious:

[Rukelnikov]

I know that, but at least with Myrkul it's like "HOW?! I WENT TO YOUR CORPSE IN THE ASTRAL PLANE AND PUT YOUR SOUL TO ETERNAL REST BY TURNING YOUR OWN CURSE AGAINST YOU AND THEN ENDED SAID CURSE ONCE AND FOR ALL! WHAT WAS LEFT OF YOU TO RESURRECT?!" :smallfurious:

Vestiges I guess? Take into account those three are pretty much the gods of "all stuff related to death", so his pals can probably bail him.

[Unoriginal]

I know that, but at least with Myrkul it's like "HOW?! I WENT TO YOUR CORPSE IN THE ASTRAL PLANE AND PUT YOUR SOUL TO ETERNAL REST BY TURNING YOUR OWN CURSE AGAINST YOU AND THEN ENDED SAID CURSE ONCE AND FOR ALL! WHAT WAS LEFT OF YOU TO RESURRECT?!" :smallfurious:

Different timelines, Archpaladin Zousha.

It's not because a group Storm King's Thunder's final boss that no other group can face them when they run the module at home.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Different timelines, Archpaladin Zousha.

It's not because a group Storm King's Thunder's final boss that no other group can face them when they run the module at home.
What final boss? Is this because Klauth shows up there when you can clearly kill him in Neverwinter Nights 1? Cuz I'm aggravated about that too! :smallmad:

[Millstone85]

This...makes me rather disappointed, as I am planning on playing through Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights 2, which means that all my efforts to get rid of Bhaal's essence and snuffing out Myrkul's soul in MotB are all for nothing. :smallannoyed:
Different timelines, Archpaladin Zousha.

It's not because a group Storm King's Thunder's final boss that no other group can face them when they run the module at home.But for following modules, it would be assumed, I hope, that some group successfully dealt with the giant situation.

At the end of 4e, there was an adventure based on the Baldur games. Here is a quote from it:

Few know of Bhaal’s plan in these events. Among those who do, many believe that the plot collapsed forever when Adrian slew Bhaal’s last high priestess and denied acceptance of the accumulated power of Bhaal, instead choosing for himself a mortal life.

Those who believe that fable are fools. The Lord of Murder is in darkness, but he waits only for two victims—the last victims—to reclaim his throne of blood.
So there you have it. All who played through the Baldur's Gate saga, and thought they thwarted Bhaal's plans for his resurrection, are fools. Well, **** you too, WotC.

It doesn't even make sense. If Gorion's Ward chooses to remain mortal, Bhaal's essence is extracted from them and locked away by the solar lady. Their death should no longer help Bhaal's return.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Exactly! And besides that I'd have assumed they were dead by now, given 4e takes place a century after the Spellplague, unless you made them something long-lived like an elf.

[JackPhoenix]

From Drew Karpyshyn, BG's scriptwritter: "Because of our multiple endings, the BG games can't be considered "official" in the FR world. However, the novels (including the upcoming TOB novel - another free plug for me!) are considered canon."

And for the novel, canon ending is Travelling to Tethyr, Abdel defeated his half-siblings and proceeded to reject the Throne of Bhaal, choosing to keep Bhaal's essence trapped inside his body.

He was later killed by the last surviving Bhaalspawn in Murder in Baldur's Gate. according to FR wiki.

[Sigreid]

IMO one of the weaknesses of WOTC is they get too attached to certain flagship characters instead of letting them go.

[Unoriginal]

IMO one of the weaknesses of WOTC is they get too attached to certain flagship characters instead of letting them go.

That is true. Kinda like how in DC or Marvel comic books the characters keep being brought back.

I do like what they did with them inthe last few modules & books, though.

[Sigreid]

That is true. Kinda like how in DC or Marvel comic books the characters keep being brought back.

I do like what they did with them inthe last few modules & books, though.

True about DC and Marvel, but at least the comics reboot them for a new generation instead of keeping the in universe 500 years of personal history.

[Millstone85]

From Drew Karpyshyn, BG's scriptwritter: "Because of our multiple endings, the BG games can't be considered "official" in the FR world. However, the novels (including the upcoming TOB novel - another free plug for me!) are considered canon."

And for the novel, canon ending is Travelling to Tethyr, Abdel defeated his half-siblings and proceeded to reject the Throne of Bhaal, choosing to keep Bhaal's essence trapped inside his body.

He was later killed by the last surviving Bhaalspawn in Murder in Baldur's Gate. according to FR wiki.So the infamous novels are canon, but the beloved games are not. :smallmad:

I don't mind too much that, out of all the gender/race/class combinations, they would officially make Gorion's Ward a male human fighter named Abdel Adrian. But I have heard so many stupid things about the novels. Like, in the games, Jaheira and Khalid are a sweet couple, even if the later has self-c-c-confidence issues and his wife clearly wears the pants in this relationship. But in the novels, they apparently made Khalid an abusive husband? How far away from the original material can you get?

And what you just said about the ending is no better. Oh yeah, flawless plan there, Abdel.

[JackPhoenix]

So the infamous novels are canon, but the beloved games are not. :smallmad:

I don't mind too much that, out of all the gender/race/class combinations, they would officially make Gorion's Ward a male human fighter named Abdel Adrian. But I have heard so many stupid things about the novels. Like, in the games, Jaheira and Khalid are a sweet couple, even if the later has self-c-c-confidence issues and his wife clearly wears the pants in this relationship. But in the novels, they apparently made Khalid an abusive husband? How far away from the original material can you get?

And what you just said about the ending is no better. Oh yeah, flawless plan there, Abdel.

I haven't read the novels, but just from the bit I've seen on the wiki while I was looking for that quote, I tend to agree.

Abdel + Bodhi....

[Millstone85]

Anyhow, back to Mordenkainen's elves. If I have an issue with the new lore, it has to do with eladrin.

See, 4e did this thing:


casual speech
proper name


dark elf
drow


high elf
eladrin


wood elf
elf


Only wood elves were actually elves. The others were called elves by uneducated commoners. And it seems real people got confused too, because I keep seeing eladrin being described as a new race that was introduced in 4e.

On the other hand, it was clear how one should roleplay an eladrin versus a (wood) elf. The former lived near fey crossings, and the latter in more mundane forests, which reflected their nostalgia and criticism of their common past.

In 5e, we are back to subraces instead of related races. And now, eladrin and high elves are distinct subraces of elves.

So you see, I find myself unsure on how to play a high elf. I guess they are thematically in-between eladrin and wood elves, looking for places where the Feywild and the Material overlap?

[JackPhoenix]

And it seems real people got confused too, because I keep seeing eladrin being described as a new race that was introduced in 4e.

Because they *were* a new race. Eladrin are nothing like pre-4e high elves were, despite 4e's attempt to conflate the two.

[Millstone85]

Because they *were* a new race. Eladrin are nothing like pre-4e high elves were, despite 4e's attempt to conflate the two.Fair enough. So how were pre-4e high elves, which probably describes 5e high elves too?

[Unoriginal]

So you see, I find myself unsure on how to play a high elf. I guess they are thematically in-between eladrin and wood elves, looking for places where the Feywild and the Material overlap?

High Elves are the scholarly ivory tower-leaning type. They don't have more attachement to Faerie than any other elves.

Meanwhile Eladrins are the Feyest of the elves, to the point of being partly made of seasons (and in the case of the most powerful/oldest ones, more attached to the Feywild than Corellon's heaven).

[PhoenixPhyre]

High Elves are the scholarly ivory tower-leaning type. They don't have more attachement to Faerie than any other elves.

Meanwhile Eladrins are the Feyest of the elves, to the point of being partly made of seasons (and in the case of the most powerful/oldest ones, more attached to the Feywild than Corellon's heaven).

I definitely like the 4e-style explicit split between the woodsy elves and the "magic" elves. From a game perspective, elves before that had this split personality thing going. Are they crystal-spires and arcane magic or are they Legolas, the race (not to mention all the various X elf races out there...)?

But having the Eladrin as that "arcane magic" elf type doesn't work for me. The conflation of fey with arcane magic doesn't sit right. So I like the 5e split and even canonicalized it as actually separate (although closely related) races in my setting.

So for me, the distinction breaks down as:
High elves: arcane magic uber alles. They have the haughty, snooty, wizardly portions of the archetype. They're not particularly interested in the wildlands or forests or the fey (no more so than others). Long lived. Not as long lived as the stock elves though. ~200 years max. I'm not fond of super-long-lived humanoid races in general.

Wood elves: Descended from those elves who didn't like/couldn't do/etc. arcane magic. Discovered druidic magic. Middle length of life--longer than humans, less than high elves, so ~120 years.

Eladrin: The effect of fey influence on elves, like aasimar for celestials, tieflings for fiends, or genasi for elementals. Rare, mutable. Life-spans vary, but somewhere in the 100+ range.

Mechanically, they're all sub-races of elves. But culturally they're very different, and wood elves and high elves aren't usually all that buddy-buddy because their way of life and basic outlook is frequently very different. I even split the language in half.

[Rukelnikov]

Much like the Tanar'ri in the Abyss, the Baatezus in Baator, or Celestials in Celestia, Eladrin, since 2e, has been the name used for elven-related creatures tracing back to Arborea (or more probably to the Seldarine).

From what little I remember from when I read 4e PHB, "Eladrin" elves sounded like they were moon elves who were getting back some of the qualities from their Tintager times.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I personally have mixed feelings. I liked the idea of Eladrin being "High Elves" (or FR's Sun and Moon Elves) and Elves being "Wood Elves" (or FR's Wood and Wild Elves) in 4e, and while I think the stronger fey influences in 5e's Eladrin IS interesting and flavorful, but now it kind of makes High Elves seem...boring, again. Like, what do High Elves DO in Faerun? Wood Elves at least have the whole "close to nature" thing going on. Take away that, and what are you left with for the elves?

[Millstone85]

High Elves are the scholarly ivory tower-leaning type. They don't have more attachement to Faerie than any other elves.Eh, I find it a little suspicious how they are the ones getting the Fey Teleportation feat, and also the ones that some eladrin can pass as.

But yeah, high elves are the wizards, while eladrin would be feylocks or sorcerers.


The conflation of fey with arcane magic doesn't sit right.That's a problem I have with the Feywild as a whole. I can't figure out if it would be a druid's best dream or worst nightmare.


Much like the Tanar'ri in the Abyss, the Baatezus in Baator, or Celestials in Celestia, Eladrin, since 2e, has been the name used for elven-related creatures tracing back to Arborea (or more probably to the Seldarine).5e eladrin are not like that. Or maybe they are, kinda, sorta?

All elves trace back to Arborea, from which they were banished into the Feywild. Eladrin are the elves who stayed in the Feywild, some to the point of becoming fey (but playable ones are humanoids).

Now they have a weird relationship with Arborea. Where other elves long to return to Arborea, but can only stay there for a limited time, eladrin prefer the Feywild, yet fey eladrin are welcome to permanently stay in Arborea.


Like, what do High Elves DO in Faerun? Wood Elves at least have the whole "close to nature" thing going on. Take away that, and what are you left with for the elves?Being the source of cautionary tales about the hubris of high magic, I guess. Their summoning of Evermeet brought one of the great cataclysms of the setting.

[Luccan]

Eh, I find it a little suspicious how they are the ones getting the Fey Teleportation feat, and also the ones that some eladrin can pass as.

But yeah, high elves are the wizards, while eladrin would be feylocks or sorcerers.

That's a problem I have with the Feywild as a whole. I can't figure out if it would be a druid's best dream or worst nightmare.

5e eladrin are not like that. Or maybe they are, kinda, sorta?

All elves trace back to Arborea, from which they were banished into the Feywild. Eladrin are the elves who stayed in the Feywild, some to the point of becoming fey (but playable ones are humanoids).

Now they have a weird relationship with Arborea. Where other elves long to return to Arborea, but can only stay there for a limited time, eladrin prefer the Feywild, yet fey eladrin are welcome to permanently stay in Arborea.

Being the source of cautionary tales about the hubris of high magic, I guess. Their summoning of Evermeet brought one of the great cataclysms of the setting.

To expand a bit on Eladrin pre-4e, Eladrin in 3.5 were specifically celestials. I don't even recall the Monster Manual mentioning a relation to elves.

[Unoriginal]

eladrin prefer the Feywild, yet fey eladrin are welcome to permanently stay in Arborea.

On which page is it mentioned? I don't remember that being in the Mordenkainen's, but I could be mistaken.



Being the source of cautionary tales about the hubris of high magic, I guess. Their summoning of Evermeet brought one of the great cataclysms of the setting.

Yeah, High Elves are the kind that never learn to not play gods.

They're also responsible for the creation of Undermountain

[Millstone85]

On which page is it mentioned? I don't remember that being in the Mordenkainen's, but I could be mistaken.No problem, here it is:
Some eladrin have been transformed so thoroughly that they have become fey creatures again and have been permitted to return to Arvandor, where they are a fascination and a delight to the Seldarine.

[Unoriginal]

No problem, here it is:

Oh, right. Thank you a lot.

It makes sense, though. The best way to gain Corellon's favor is to not seek Corellon's favor.

I always imagine Corellon like a good-hearted but capricious and whimsical rock star who's always on tours. Here it's probably a "love their fans, but would rather spend time with people who consider them just some person" kind of deal.

[Rukelnikov]

All elves trace back to Arborea, from which they were banished into the Feywild. Eladrin are the elves who stayed in the Feywild, some to the point of becoming fey (but playable ones are humanoids).

Since 2e Planescape, Eladrin were the many creatures "native" to arborea Firre/Tulani/Ghaele/etc. I think it was 4e that started using eladrin for a single race instead of a group of them. Like making a specific demon race called Tanar'ri.


To expand a bit on Eladrin pre-4e, Eladrin in 3.5 were specifically celestials. I don't even recall the Monster Manual mentioning a relation to elves.

They were native to Arborea, and Arborea's petitioners are (mostly) elves. Plus they looked like elves.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Oh, right. Thank you a lot.

It makes sense, though. The best way to gain Corellon's favor is to not seek Corellon's favor.

I always imagine Corellon like a good-hearted but capricious and whimsical rock star who's always on tours. Here it's probably a "love their fans, but would rather spend time with people who consider them just some person" kind of deal.
That is a VERY interesting way of looking at it. The book also states that Gruumsh hated Corellon because of their attitude and antics...maybe that's because Gruumsh felt a god must be dominant and authoritative, and Corellon was anything BUT?

"You're supposed to RULE over your creations! That's what gods DO!"

"Eh, I'm not really big on that, bro."

"YOU'RE A GOD! ACT LIKE IT!"

"Why'd you hit me, bro?! Chill out!"

"GAH! MY EYE!!!"

[Unoriginal]

That is a VERY interesting way of looking at it. The book also states that Gruumsh hated Corellon because of their attitude and antics...maybe that's because Gruumsh felt a god must be dominant and authoritative, and Corellon was anything BUT?

"You're supposed to RULE over your creations! That's what gods DO!"

"Eh, I'm not really big on that, bro."

"YOU'RE A GOD! ACT LIKE IT!"

"Why'd you hit me, bro?! Chill out!"

"GAH! MY EYE!!!"

Corellon didn't have any creations at the time, tough.

I feel Gruumsh just got pissed at Corellon doing the cosmic equivalent of "I'm not touching you".

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Corellon didn't have any creations at the time, tough.

I feel Gruumsh just got pissed at Corellon doing the cosmic equivalent of "I'm not touching you".
Yeah, that's probably more accurate. :smallamused:

[Irennan]

I know that, but at least with Myrkul it's like "HOW?! I WENT TO YOUR CORPSE IN THE ASTRAL PLANE AND PUT YOUR SOUL TO ETERNAL REST BY TURNING YOUR OWN CURSE AGAINST YOU AND THEN ENDED SAID CURSE ONCE AND FOR ALL! WHAT WAS LEFT OF YOU TO RESURRECT?!" :smallfurious:

Easy, you forgot about the Crown of Horns, which held a large part of Myrkul's power.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Easy, you forgot about the Crown of Horns, which held a large part of Myrkul's power.

I thought that got destroyed after whatever trouble it caused got resolved? :smallconfused:

[Envyus]

Should state the Baldur's Gate Novels are not canon. The events of Baldur's Gate happened in the Realms but was more similar to the games. The canon Bhaalspawn was just a Neutral Good Fighter named Abdel. (Who is the first option for a pre generated character in the games.)

[Millstone85]

Should state the Baldur's Gate Novels are not canon. The events of Baldur's Gate happened in the Realms but was more similar to the games. The canon Bhaalspawn was just a Neutral Good Fighter named Abdel. (Who is the first option for a pre generated character in the games.)I wish. But as previously discussed between me and JackPhoenix, it can't be just that.

Bhaal is alive in 5e. Bhaal is alive because of the events of the module Murder in Baldur's Gate, which starts with Abdel living a mortal life with the god's essence sealed within himself, something that doesn't match either possible endings of the games, but does match the ending of the novels.

[JackPhoenix]

Should state the Baldur's Gate Novels are not canon. The events of Baldur's Gate happened in the Realms but was more similar to the games. The canon Bhaalspawn was just a Neutral Good Fighter named Abdel. (Who is the first option for a pre generated character in the games.)

To quote myself quoting the one responsible for that thing:


From Drew Karpyshyn, BG's scriptwritter: "Because of our multiple endings, the BG games can't be considered "official" in the FR world. However, the novels (including the upcoming TOB novel - another free plug for me!) are considered canon."

That's what you get if you decide to count secondary sources (i.e. novels) as part of the canon, and then let (semi)random people write them.

[Envyus]

Yes, but the novels don't match current FR Cannon. Like several of the Companions that were in the game, but were not in the novels or died in them, are around and remember the events.

Basically what happened, is that the game events happened, starring a Neutral Good Fighter named Abdel. (Which is different from the novels as Abdel was Chaotic Neutral there.) But the ending was similar to the book.
As well despite the ending of the game it does not change that the Solar was wrong about the Hero being the last Bhaalspawn, as Viekang was still alive. (Which is the plot point in Murder, Viekang was missed by everyone, and murders Abdel allowing Bhaal's return.)

[JackPhoenix]

Yes, but the novels don't match current FR Cannon. Like several of the Companions that were in the game, but were not in the novels or died in them, are around and remember the events.

Contradictions in FR lore? I'm shocked!

[Spriteless]

So is it easier to consider every version is hearsay, cannon only insofar as being what the scribes wrote down? I remember when Weis used that to unhappen some books she didn't like in Dragonlance. To the moon, Kitiara!

[Envyus]

So is it easier to consider every version is hearsay, cannon only insofar as being what the scribes wrote down? I remember when Weis used that to unhappen some books she didn't like in Dragonlance. To the moon, Kitiara!

Basically.
Minsc, Neera and Coran were around at the very least, and two of them were not in the Baldur's Gate Novels and one of them died. The primary D&D designers have stated that events largely went down as they did in the games.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

This is why I'm going to play the games myself. Establish a head-canon to build characters off of (so I can say my modern 5e characters are the kids or grandkids of my PC game characters).

[Irennan]

I thought that got destroyed after whatever trouble it caused got resolved? :smallconfused:

Yes, Khelben shattered it but, with Myrkul's "death", the crown was made whole again and infused with his consciousness. During the Spellplague, it fused with some Yuan-Ti slaver from Skullport, possessing it and becoming a sort of manifestation of Myrkul, acting through the mad Yuan-Ti. Dunno what's become of it as of the Sundering, but it surely was still there at the time of MotB