DMing a group without a full caster

[BarneyBent]

Hi all, I’m currently DMing for a party that currently has no full caster. Every player has some magical ability, there is a Ranger, a Paladin, an Arcane Trickster, and a Monk with a single level of Wild Magic Sorcerer (which will stay a single level).

So far it hasn’t caused issues as they’re only level three and the encounter-changing benefits of medium to high level spellcasting haven’t been needed yet. Healing is also covered by the Paladin, with Ranger providing some backup.

There is a 5th player joining the group shortly. Should I strongly encourage him to roll up a full caster? Or would the combined partial casting of the rest of the party be sufficient that it’s not really required? My instinct is that it’s not enough but want the view of more experienced DMs.

[Wryte]

What makes you feel that a full caster is a requirement for a party in the first place?

[Unoriginal]

What makes you feel that a full caster is a requirement for a party in the first place?

This.


Why think any casting is a requirement?

[stoutstien]

If any player grabs the ritual caster feat it will cover 90% of the nice to have spells adventures may want

[XmonkTad]

Honestly this shouldn't be too big of a deal. The ranger can pick up out of combat healing with a single spell, and the paladin can happily take care of in combat healing just fine.

Other than that, I can't really think of a "vital role" that full casting would play. Faster travel? Interplanar travel? Binding particular fiends/fae? I can't think of anything that couldn't be fixed with hiring an NPC or a McGuffin.

[Rukelnikov]

My advice? Let the 5th player be whatever s/he wants, and if s/he doesn't go for a full caster throw a party.

[Errata]

It should be fine. Combat healing is not as effective in 5e, so clerics aren't an absolute essential. Their Paladin and Ranger might pick up the slack with a little more emphasis on between combat or emergency healing than they otherwise would have had. AOE and crowd control are helpful, but the hybrid classes can be pretty versatile and with a whole party of them there should be alternative tactics to get through most standard encounters.

Non-combat, you might have to make some adjustments based on what they can do, but that's always the case. Even if they had full casters, it's no guarantee that they'd have the right kind of caster who knew the right spell for a specific situation. A good campaign should have multiple ways that problems could be overcome, and most situations should have a solution other than having just the right spell in your spellbook. If they really need one particular spell (like raise dead, teleport, etc), they might need to go out of their way and pay extra or do a quest to get the help they need. If there is some element of a high level campaign that requires regular access to one particular ability (e.g. something to do with interplanar travel or divination), then introducing a magic item or two to help out with that can keep it from being insurmountable.

[Sigreid]

Do what you would do for any group and let them figure it out.

[BarneyBent]

What makes you feel that a full caster is a requirement for a party in the first place?

Control, buffing, more interesting combats, ritual casting. The Paladin wants spell slots for smiting, the Ranger wants spell slots for healing and damage bonuses, the Arcane Trickster wants spell slots for out of combat utility, and the Monk/Sorcerer wants spell slots pretty much for Shield and only Shield.

It leaves very little spell slots for buffing and control, and while I’ve considered bringing in an NPC mage/priest at a level or two lower to help out, that’s not ideal - especially as I tend to be an active character when I play and really don’t want the NPC to turn into a DMPC.

I might just be overthinking it but I’d like the party to be balanced such that they really don’t need much from NPCs except for really specific, story-driven purposes.

[ImproperJustice]

Control, buffing, more interesting combats, ritual casting. The Paladin wants spell slots for smiting, the Ranger wants spell slots for healing and damage bonuses, the Arcane Trickster wants spell slots for out of combat utility, and the Monk/Sorcerer wants spell slots pretty much for Shield and only Shield.

It leaves very little spell slots for buffing and control, and while I’ve considered bringing in an NPC mage/priest at a level or two lower to help out, that’s not ideal - especially as I tend to be an active character when I play and really don’t want the NPC to turn into a DMPC.

I might just be overthinking it but I’d like the party to be balanced such that they really don’t need much from NPCs except for really specific, story-driven purposes.

You are overthinking it.
I ran in a party of all martials all the way up to level 8.

Turns out you don’t need all that fancy stuff when you can scout, quietly pop the lock of a door, then charge in like a SWAT team and murder everything in two rounds.

Let your players play what they want. Nothing is more destructive to a table than a disgruntled unhappy player.

[Errata]

It leaves very little spell slots for buffing and control, and while I’ve considered bringing in an NPC mage/priest at a level or two lower to help out, that’s not ideal - especially as I tend to be an active character when I play and really don’t want the NPC to turn into a DMPC.

You don't need an NPC. Their classes are capable of some amount of those things, and if they don't see the value in it, then let them figure it out. If they refuse to adapt and use spell slots for anything other than damage, given the party composition, that's on them. They can course correct as they gain levels if they recognize a deficiency in some area. Things like ritual casting are a convenience, and different full casters will have different rituals anyway, so there isn't some universal baseline. Rangers and Arcane Tricksters can be pretty competent in non-combat situations if played appropriately. Don't try to force them to play the way that you would if you were them.

Worst case, if they keep trying to brute force every situation, they might eventually have a totally avoidable party wipe in a situation that crowd control or buffs might have helped prevent. That's an opportunity for them to re-evaluate their choices with new characters. Don't force them to die to teach them a lesson, but don't coddle them either. Keep it reasonable for a party of their level and see how it goes.

[Rukelnikov]

You are overthinking it.
I ran in a party of all martials all the way up to level 8.

Turns out you don’t need all that fancy stuff when you can scout, quietly pop the lock of a door, then charge in like a SWAT team and murder everything in two rounds.

Let your players play what they want. Nothing is more destructive to a table than a disgruntled unhappy player.

I haven't been in or DMed for a party without full caster's since 2e :(

[BarneyBent]

You are overthinking it.
I ran in a party of all martials all the way up to level 8.

Turns out you don’t need all that fancy stuff when you can scout, quietly pop the lock of a door, then charge in like a SWAT team and murder everything in two rounds.

Let your players play what they want. Nothing is more destructive to a table than a disgruntled unhappy player.

To be clear, I wouldn’t force a player to play anything. Already had a chat and said first rule is play what you want, but I’m sending through some notes on the campaign and party for some guidance/context.

This is really just whether I say “party could really do with a full caster”, leave it alone completely, or something in between.

For further context, we have two campaigns going, the other with a different DM, he’s joining that one as well, and we have a Cleric, Bard, Warlock and Fighter. So he probably WON’T want to roll a full caster for that one.

[Keravath]

Full casters can, if lucky with the correct spells prepared, make some encounters much easier. Crowd control, AoE damage and similar spells can allow the party to handle more challenging encounters. However, none of that is required it is only convenient. If the DM provides reasonable challenges then they will be able to deal with them.

On the other hand, there are some challenges they may have greater difficulty with. They don’t have easy access to counterspell or dispel magic which can shift the balance when dealing with enemy spellcasters. They also don’t have easy access to spells that remove status effects like lesser and greater restoration. So the party may have more difficulty with certain types of encounters. Eg a couple of casters with a squad of guards.

[Rukelnikov]

Full casters can, if lucky with the correct spells prepared, make some encounters much easier. Crowd control, AoE damage and similar spells can allow the party to handle more challenging encounters. However, none of that is required it is only convenient. If the DM provides reasonable challenges then they will be able to deal with them.

On the other hand, there are some challenges they may have greater difficulty with. They don’t have easy access to counterspell or dispel magic which can shift the balance when dealing with enemy spellcasters. They also don’t have easy access to spells that remove status effects like lesser and greater restoration. So the party may have more difficulty with certain types of encounters. Eg a couple of casters with a squad of guards.

The big impact of the full casters is not during encounters but out of it, specifically in most stuff encompassing "exploration".

"Hey, I think maybe the Glabrezu is hiding in the palace's basement"

Without full caster "we gotta infiltrate the palace"
With full caster, "lets cast commune/contact other plane and ask."

"Damn, if we only had cannon we could try [insert classic PC creativity]"

Without full caster: "But we don't have one, and we are 5 days away from port, lets think of something else"
With full caster: "Alright, I'll be back in a jiffy, but we are dividing the price of the cannon evenly"

Case A could maybe have been more interesting without the full caster.
Case B is probably more interesting with a full caster.

Having one is not necessarily better or worse, but its undeniably a different kind of game.

[JoeJ]

The big impact of the full casters is not during encounters but out of it, specifically in most stuff encompassing "exploration".

"Hey, I think maybe the Glabrezu is hiding in the palace's basement"

Without full caster "we gotta infiltrate the palace"
With full caster, "lets cast commune/contact other plane and ask."

"Damn, if we only had cannon we could try [insert classic PC creativity]"

Without full caster: "But we don't have one, and we are 5 days away from port, lets think of something else"
With full caster: "Alright, I'll be back in a jiffy, but we are dividing the price of the cannon evenly"

Case A could maybe have been more interesting without the full caster.
Case B is probably more interesting with a full caster.

Having one is not necessarily better or worse, but its undeniably a different kind of game.

That's kind of misleading. Having a full caster won't automatically let you cast Commune/Contact Other Plane, or make a five day journey in a jiffy. It has to be the right kind of full caster, and for most full caster classes, they have to have learned the right spells. Druids and sorcerers can't cast Commune or Contact Other Plane. Neither clerics nor druids can Teleport. Bards can't do any of those things unless they use their limited Magical Secrets to pick them up.

[OverLordOcelot]

The big impact of the full casters is not during encounters but out of it, specifically in most stuff encompassing "exploration".

"Hey, I think maybe the Glabrezu is hiding in the palace's basement"

Without full caster "we gotta infiltrate the palace"
With full caster, "lets cast commune/contact other plane and ask."

So without full caster, you either send someone to infiltrate the palace, or talk your way in, or some of the other stuff you expect to do in an RPG. With a druid, bard, or warlock you... are still in the same boat even though you have a full caster. With a wizard or sorcerer, you really need healing caster ready with a backup fifth level spell to remove the potential insanity you get on a failed save or you're risking removing one of your PCs from the game. And really, how is a glabrezu hiding out in the palace without anyone spotting him? He's a large non-human looking demon, he can't just slip in, and his default spells don't help with that.


"Damn, if we only had cannon we could try [insert classic PC creativity]"

Without full caster: "But we don't have one, and we are 5 days away from port, lets think of something else"
With full caster: "Alright, I'll be back in a jiffy, but we are dividing the price of the cannon evenly"

Case A could maybe have been more interesting without the full caster.
Case B is probably more interesting with a full caster.

Having one is not necessarily better or worse, but its undeniably a different kind of game.

Well, for one thing that's a bard/sorcerer/wizard-only trick, the other full casters don't have teleport. And it presumes you're able to casually teleport to and from the location where you're trying to be creative and somewhere else, when there's a strong tendency for areas with conflict to interfere with teleportation magic. And then I can't really think of a situation where a group of 15th level characters would find a small cannon (fits in a 10' cube) with no ammo (one object) or only what ammo the wizard can personally carry better than the seventh and eighth level spell slots you're burning to go buy one - wouldn't whirlwind, reverse gravity, control weather or some other large area spell do a better job? And if setting up a cannon is a reasonable problem-solving thing with the way the campaign is running, can't the martial characters just put one in a portable hole to have handy at a moment's notice? Assuming 15th level casters but no magic items would be a bit odd, after all.

[Sigreid]

Seriously, don't cater to the party too much. Create a normal D&D adventure just like you always would. Don't figure out for them how they are going to overcome or survive the challenges. Either they are going to surprise you with their cunning and it's going to be a fantastic game or they'll muddle along as best they can. The party you've described is entirely viable, they'll just do things differently.

[Malifice]

Control, buffing, more interesting combats, ritual casting.

That's not a requirement though. Thats a matter of preference of the players. Sounds like none of them are intrested in any of that.

A party of 5 Fighters (or Rogues) have strengths. Dealing a crap ton of damage (god help you if you have 5 rogues next to you) at will, every single round for starters. Combat isnt an issue (barring the fact they're all likely to have the same 'good' saves, so a monster ability that targets a bad save could shut the whole party down).

We all know the damage a tooled up Fighter can do. And they can largely do it at will. A party of 5 fighters (or rogues) doesnt need buffing; they come out of the box with great HP, great at will damage, and solid defences.

It's just when it comes to other things, where a caster can click his fingers and expend a resource, the above party needs to think outside the box and rely on skills, contacts and roleplaying to get things done.

Instead of flying over the gorge, they build a bridge, use rope or climb it. Instead of teleporting to the other side of the continent, they book passage on a ship. Instead of retreating to a Leohumds, they bring mules and a tent, and employ hireling mercenary guards. If they find a locked door, they pick the lock or kick it open instead of casting Knock. Instead of casting Plane shift to get to another plane, they locate and travel through a portal to that plane.

There isnt much a spell can do, that cant be simply replicated with roleplaying and creative thinking.

[Rukelnikov]

That's kind of misleading. Having a full caster won't automatically let you cast Commune/Contact Other Plane, or make a five day journey in a jiffy. It has to be the right kind of full caster, and for most full caster classes, they have to have learned the right spells. Druids and sorcerers can't cast Commune or Contact Other Plane. Neither clerics nor druids can Teleport. Bards can't do any of those things unless they use their limited Magical Secrets to pick them up.

Half of the full casters can cast one of those two spells(not counting bards), and half of the full casters can do the tele back trip(teleport and circle are both bard spells).

Those were examples, depicting two different situations and how they play out with and without full casters, there are other situations where the other spell lists would be applicable


So without full caster, you either send someone to infiltrate the palace, or talk your way in, or some of the other stuff you expect to do in an RPG.

Exactly what I said.


With a druid, bard, or warlock you... are still in the same boat even though you have a full caster.

Yup, this example considered having either of those spells.


With a wizard or sorcerer, you really need healing caster ready with a backup fifth level spell to remove the potential insanity you get on a failed save or you're risking removing one of your PCs from the game.

My Sorlock(Ritual Caster Wizard) would do this regularly, if it went wrong he was pummeled to unconsciousness by the party and then stabilized, we tried again next day after LR.


And really, how is a glabrezu hiding out in the palace without anyone spotting him? He's a large non-human looking demon, he can't just slip in, and his default spells don't help with that.

It's an example. It could be in league with the king, or chancellor, make it a doppelganger if it suits you better.


Well, for one thing that's a bard/sorcerer/wizard-only trick, the other full casters don't have teleport.

Thats half of them, and again... its an example.


And it presumes you're able to casually teleport to and from the location where you're trying to be creative and somewhere else, when there's a strong tendency for areas with conflict to interfere with teleportation magic.

I don't know where that tendency comes from (DM maybe?). There and back again is easy if you can cast Teleport, first pick a piece of wood from the ship you are sailing on (or an object form the place you are leaving, a branch from a tree, a stone from a mound, etc). Then use Teleportation Circle to go to a city where you would get a cannon (or whatever else you need), no chance for failure. Once you have the goods secured (use bag of holding for relatively small stuff like powder kegs and cannonballs) cast Teleport with the object you took, and again no chance of miss teleporting since you have an associated object.


And then I can't really think of a situation where a group of 15th level characters would find a small cannon (fits in a 10' cube) with no ammo (one object) or only what ammo the wizard can personally carry better than the seventh and eighth level spell slots you're burning to go buy one - wouldn't whirlwind, reverse gravity, control weather or some other large area spell do a better job?

They can have as much ammo they can stuff in their bags of holdings, and situations arise where you could use stuff you don't have, maybe they needed the 2400 ft range the cannon has.


And if setting up a cannon is a reasonable problem-solving thing with the way the campaign is running, can't the martial characters just put one in a portable hole to have handy at a moment's notice? Assuming 15th level casters but no magic items would be a bit odd, after all.

Captain Hindsight always has the needed objects handy, but maybe the players didn't think they could use something until the moment presented itself.

[Rukelnikov]

Seriously, don't cater to the party too much. Create a normal D&D adventure just like you always would. Don't figure out for them how they are going to overcome or survive the challenges. Either they are going to surprise you with their cunning and it's going to be a fantastic game or they'll muddle along as best they can. The party you've described is entirely viable, they'll just do things differently.

100% agreed

[Malifice]

100% agreed

I 100% disagree.

A good DM always caters to his party.

You do it by placing (generally) balanced encounters at them (no throwing Pit Fiends at 1st level PCs as a combat encounter), by setting DC's appropriate to the characters, and you do it by tailoring your quests, hooks and adventures to the Characters they create.

Flip side of that argument is the players come to the table with characters appropriate to the story you have all agreed to tell.

It's a collaborative process. You all work together to tell a story.

[Sigreid]

I 100% disagree.

A good DM always caters to his party.

You do it by placing (generally) balanced encounters at them (no throwing Pit Fiends at 1st level PCs as a combat encounter), by setting DC's appropriate to the characters, and you do it by tailoring your quests, hooks and adventures to the Characters they create.

Flip side of that argument is the players come to the table with characters appropriate to the story you have all agreed to tell.

It's a collaborative process. You all work together to tell a story.

Surely you understood that I meant don't change the encounter or challenges just because they don't have a full caster and not "what the hell, 1st level party against an ancient red dragon sounds fun"?

[Malifice]

Surely you understood that I meant don't change the encounter or challenges just because they don't have a full caster and not "what the hell, 1st level party against an ancient red dragon sounds fun"?

As a general rule, you should change (tailor) the encounter to the party. And the adventure. And indeed the campaign as a whole.

Level, class and characters (appropriate hooks etc).

You're not some impartial objective dice roller. You're there to weave a collaborative story with appropriate challenges for your group.

If you're DMing a party of Fighters, and you're designing an adventure on the Planes, you should provide a mechanism for them to get there. You should ensure that the adventure is something they want to engage in, and contains challenges appropriate for a party of all fighters.

[Rukelnikov]

I 100% disagree.

A good DM always caters to his party.

You do it by placing (generally) balanced encounters at them (no throwing Pit Fiends at 1st level PCs as a combat encounter), by setting DC's appropriate to the characters, and you do it by tailoring your quests, hooks and adventures to the Characters they create.

Flip side of that argument is the players come to the table with characters appropriate to the story you have all agreed to tell.

It's a collaborative process. You all work together to tell a story.

100% disagree.

I don't make adventures expecting the PCs to do X or Y, I create a setting, NPCs, motives, and events, they can reacto to the world however they see fit. More than once they took approeaches completely opposed to what I thought they would do, and that's perfect cause thats the freedom RPGs allow.

[Kane0]

To be clear, I wouldn’t force a player to play anything. Already had a chat and said first rule is play what you want, but I’m sending through some notes on the campaign and party for some guidance/context.

This is really just whether I say “party could really do with a full caster”, leave it alone completely, or something in between.

For further context, we have two campaigns going, the other with a different DM, he’s joining that one as well, and we have a Cleric, Bard, Warlock and Fighter. So he probably WON’T want to roll a full caster for that one.

Nah, let em pick whatever without any bias and deal with it if and when it actually becomes a problem.

[Errata]

To be clear, I wouldn’t force a player to play anything. Already had a chat and said first rule is play what you want, but I’m sending through some notes on the campaign and party for some guidance/context.

This is really just whether I say “party could really do with a full caster”, leave it alone completely, or something in between.

If you sent them some notes on the party, then they can see for themselves what the classes are. Maybe they'll take the party composition as enough of a cue to pick something different to complement them, especially if they have any familiarity with rpgs. If you explicitly point out your advice, they may feel almost compelled to go that route just to be polite, whether you intended it that way or not.

[OverLordOcelot]

Half of the full casters can cast one of those two spells(not counting bards), and half of the full casters can do the tele back trip(teleport and circle are both bard spells).

So your statement that if you have a full caster then you have these options is incorrect, as half of the full casters don't have access to the spells you mentioned.


My Sorlock(Ritual Caster Wizard) would do this regularly, if it went wrong he was pummeled to unconsciousness by the party and then stabilized, we tried again next day after LR.

I don't know where that tendency comes from (DM maybe?). There and back again is easy if you can cast Teleport,

If your level 15 characters are routinely facing 'challenges' where they can expect to casually stop and take a long rest in the middle of trying to pursue someone who's hiding, and where they never encounter areas warded against teleport, and never worry about burning both of their top level spell slots to purchase a mundane item, then I doubt they're really facing much that's genuinely challenging for them.

[Rukelnikov]

So your statement that if you have a full caster then you have these options is incorrect, as half of the full casters don't have access to the spells you mentioned.

example
/ɪɡˈzɑːmp(ə)l,ɛɡˈzɑːmp(ə)l/
noun
1.
a thing characteristic of its kind or illustrating a general rule.
"advertising provides a good example of an industry where dreams have faded"
sinónimos: specimen, sample, exemplar, exemplification, instance, case, representative case, typical case, case in point, illustration
"a fine example of a 16th-century longhouse"
2.
a person or thing regarded in terms of their fitness to be imitated.
"it is important that parents should set an example"
sinónimos: precedent, lead, guide, model, pattern, blueprint, template, paradigm, exemplar, ideal, standard; Más
verb
1.
be illustrated or exemplified.
"the extent of Allied naval support is exampled by the navigational specialists provided"


If your level 15 characters are routinely facing 'challenges' where they can expect to casually stop and take a long rest in the middle of trying to pursue someone who's hiding, and where they never encounter areas warded against teleport, and never worry about burning both of their top level spell slots to purchase a mundane item, then I doubt they're really facing much that's genuinely challenging for them.

We do a lot of stuff besides dungeoneering

[OverLordOcelot]

example [snip pointless dictionary quote]

I'm glad you've learned to read a dictionary, some of us mastered that ability in elementary school but not everyone is so lucky. Posting a dictionary definition doesn't change the fact that your example isn't of what you can do with 'a full caster', but rather what you can do with fairly specific types of full caster. Someone actually looking at the capabilities of a group should definitely realize that adding a warlock, sorcerer, or druid to a group is not going to affect it the same way as a wizard and plan accordingly.


We do a lot of stuff besides dungeoneering

And apparently you do a lot of extremely non-challenging stuff. I mean, your response to 'a giant murder demon has infiltrated the palace' is 'lets cast this spell, and if we get a bad result then we'll just take the rest of the day off and reconvene in the morning'. If I were running the game, you'd almost certainly wake up to a casualty count of how many people in the palace were butchered by the unsubtle murder demon while you were sleeping it off. This doesn't have anything to do with being in a dungeon (note that this adventure occurs outside of a palace, then in an inn for the adventurers, and within the palace for the murder demon), but rather with the lack of challenge and/or urgency in the situation.

If your game lacks time and risk pressure to the point that 'we'll try one thing, then long rest if that doesn't work' and 'we'll burn all of his high level slots to get a piece of mundane equipment, I'm sure we'll be able to long rest before he wants to use one of the big spells again' (seem like good ideas on a routine basis, then casters are going to dominate the game, especially wizards. But this doesn't really say much about how to run a group with no full caster, it just points out how unchallenging a 15 minute adventuring day is.

[Sigreid]

As a general rule, you should change (tailor) the encounter to the party. And the adventure. And indeed the campaign as a whole.

Level, class and characters (appropriate hooks etc).

You're not some impartial objective dice roller. You're there to weave a collaborative story with appropriate challenges for your group.

If you're DMing a party of Fighters, and you're designing an adventure on the Planes, you should provide a mechanism for them to get there. You should ensure that the adventure is something they want to engage in, and contains challenges appropriate for a party of all fighters.

I absolutely do not change things based on the party. But I also dont force the party to persue any given path. They make their choices and deal with it.

[Rukelnikov]

I'm glad you've learned to read a dictionary, some of us mastered that ability in elementary school but not everyone is so lucky. Posting a dictionary definition doesn't change the fact that your example isn't of what you can do with 'a full caster', but rather what you can do with fairly specific types of full caster. Someone actually looking at the capabilities of a group should definitely realize that adding a warlock, sorcerer, or druid to a group is not going to affect it the same way as a wizard and plan accordingly.

You clearly don't understand what example means given your answer.

example noun [ C ] (TYPICAL CASE)
​
A1 something that is typical of the group of things that it is a member of:

Could you give me an example of the improvements you have mentioned?
This painting is a marvellous example of her work.
See also
exemplify
​
A1 a way of helping someone to understand something by showing them how it is used:

Study the examples first of all, then attempt the exercises on the next page.
for example
​
A1 used when giving an example of the type of thing you mean:

Offices can easily become more environmentally-friendly by, for example, using recycled paper.
More examples

This church is a perfect example of medieval architecture.
'She', 'it', and 'who' are all examples of pronouns.
An early example of privatization was the enclosure of public land for private use by wealthy landlords.
He's a classic example of a kid who's clever but lazy.
Sweden is often held up as an example of a successful social democracy.



And apparently you do a lot of extremely non-challenging stuff. I mean, your response to 'a giant murder demon has infiltrated the palace' is 'lets cast this spell, and if we get a bad result then we'll just take the rest of the day off and reconvene in the morning'. If I were running the game, you'd almost certainly wake up to a casualty count of how many people in the palace were butchered by the unsubtle murder demon while you were sleeping it off. This doesn't have anything to do with being in a dungeon (note that this adventure occurs outside of a palace, then in an inn for the adventurers, and within the palace for the murder demon), but rather with the lack of challenge and/or urgency in the situation.

The demon is in league with the king or chancellor, has been hiding in the palace for who knows how long, and just decided to rampage that day, why exactly? Because a group of people he doesn't know about suspects it may be there, which he also doesn't know about? Well that Glabrezu was far more resourceful than expected.


If your game lacks time and risk pressure to the point that 'we'll try one thing, then long rest if that doesn't work' and 'we'll burn all of his high level slots to get a piece of mundane equipment, I'm sure we'll be able to long rest before he wants to use one of the big spells again' (seem like good ideas on a routine basis, then casters are going to dominate the game, especially wizards. But this doesn't really say much about how to run a group with no full caster, it just points out how unchallenging a 15 minute adventuring day is.

Time contranits are there when it makes sense, trying to arbitrarily shoehorn them into every situation makes a lot of them senseless.

[OverLordOcelot]

You clearly don't understand what example means given your answer.

You clearly don't understand basic English usage but want to use big block quotes to engage in incorrect semantics arguments. I pointed out the problem with your example, readers can benefit from the information, and I long since gave up on internet word usage arguments.


Time contranits are there when it makes sense, trying to arbitrarily shoehorn them into every situation makes a lot of them senseless.

It virtually always makes sense to have enough time constraints that 'cast one spell, take a long rest' as an SOP is a bad decision. If your enemies always just wait for the PCs to finish their multi-day investigations and preparations before doing anything then sure, 'cast one spell, take a long rest' will work fine, but I certainly wouldn't expect it. And like I said, such setups greatly skew the game in favor of full casters over martials, but that's because you're effectively giving casters unlimited spell slots. Have the party under some actual pressure to solve a situation, and things like 'there's a chance one of us will be out of commission for the rest of the day' or 'I just used up my 7th and 8th level slots to get a mundane piece of equipment' suddenly become real issues.

[MeimuHakurei]

The problem with no full casters - especially at higher levels (like 7+) - is that noncasters simply cannot do a large number of things (flying, teleporting, raising the dead...) that casters can, who in turn are merely less good at mundane things at most. It's not fair to chastise spellcasters for having a limited amount of daily uses of their powers that their nonmagical peers never get.

Also, don't forget that Good Role Playing And Creative Problem Solving (TM) is not a thing that goes away simply because you have spell slots.

Can you make a campaign where the party has no casters? Yes. Will it severely limit the kinds of challenges you can offer? Yes. Do parties with only full casters suffer the same limiting design? No.

[Rukelnikov]

You clearly don't understand basic English usage but want to use big block quotes to engage in incorrect semantics arguments. I pointed out the problem with your example, readers can benefit from the information, and I long since gave up on internet word usage arguments.

https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/example


It virtually always makes sense to have enough time constraints that 'cast one spell, take a long rest' as an SOP is a bad decision. If your enemies always just wait for the PCs to finish their multi-day investigations and preparations before doing anything then sure, 'cast one spell, take a long rest' will work fine, but I certainly wouldn't expect it. And like I said, such setups greatly skew the game in favor of full casters over martials, but that's because you're effectively giving casters unlimited spell slots. Have the party under some actual pressure to solve a situation, and things like 'there's a chance one of us will be out of commission for the rest of the day' or 'I just used up my 7th and 8th level slots to get a mundane piece of equipment' suddenly become real issues.

Time constraints are there when it makes sense, an enemy that knows its being hunted by the party will not tarry. An enemy that's doing his every day shtick in the village he normally targets has no reason to go outside his routine. The vampire guild doesn't suddenly becoma active in the city when the PCs enter it and start killing everybody. Either they were killing before, or they don't start doing it without reason. They are NPCs with goals and motivations, not some sprites just there to be killed by the party.