How best to challenge a Dal Quor Planar Shepherd using his 10:1 time bubble?

[Endarire]

Just as the title says, "How best to challenge a Dal Quor Planar Shepherd using his 10:1 time bubble?"

I ask this question more due to curiosity. I'm not in an immediate position to be GMing this now.

[Troacctid]

Well first off the time trait only takes effect when you move between planes, so you shouldn't have to worry about its use in combat, at least.

[Eldariel]

As ever, the number of actions doesn't matter if the first one is fatal. Time Stop makes the caster able to act freely more or less, so a Time Stopped caster can do a bunch of "you dies" before the other gets a turn regardless of what said turn actually entails.

[magic9mushroom]

Just as the title says, "How best to challenge a Dal Quor Planar Shepherd using his 10:1 time bubble?"

I ask this question more due to curiosity. I'm not in an immediate position to be GMing this now.

Teleport or move into the time bubble. Maze the Planar Shepherd. Time Stop. Or just Celerity and alpha-strike.

Or battles on Dal Quor, where the time bubble doesn't do anything.

[Wraith]

Kill him in his sleep. Activating the bubble takes an action, so it won't save him if he's not aware that he needs to be in it.

Sneak Attack. Boost your Initiative to absurd levels, Hide In Shadows/Improved Invisibility and shank him dead before he can react. Works especially well when he isn't Wild Shaped, as being a 10/Shepherd doesn't inherently change his type to anything that would be immune to sneak attacks, like 20/Monk might.

Similarly, if you can get that close to them (Teleport will help in that regard) then Grapple him to death. I'm pretty sure that the Planar Bubble effects everyone within its radius and the Shepherd cannot consciously exclude anyone, so as long as you can get close then YOU also get 10 rounds to strangle him to death before the rest of his party can react.

If you're feeling particularly sadistic, get something like a Vampire, Wight or Succubi to do it and Level Drain him to 4/Shepherd, and then Planar Bubble is no longer a problem.

Contingency a Save Or Die spell. So long as the trigger is "when combat is declared" a level-equivalent Wizard or Sorcerer (probably 15 or more, depending on how the Shepherd met his requisites) should easily be able to nuke down a single target in a round. Add Celerity to the Contingency or just otherwise boost your Initiative to make sure that you get your normal action, if you would rather have more control over what you cast, but the principal is the same.

If you're higher level than the Shepherd, Chain Contingency does the same thing more efficiently, but by then you probably have access to Time Stop which is even better, as Eldariel explains above.

Any effect that Stuns, Paralyses, Confuses or Panics the target would prevent the Shepherd from activating their ability. I'm sure there's plenty of those, as are ways to overcome their saves.

In theory, some sort of persistent Area of Effect spell should still work - something like Cloudkill for example, but one that does damage in the target's turn rather than yours. Cast it first, centred on the Shepherd, and let him enjoy 10 turns of DoT damage to everyone else's 1.
Effecting the battlefield to do something similar might be possible - fight in an acidic swamp so that every step hurts him, for example, if you can't find the magic spell that does the same. Or invest in a ridiculous number of caltrops for a similar effect.

"Locate City" bomb. He can have his 10 actions, but unless one of them is to Planeshift away then he's screwed.

Challenge him to a fight on a plane to which he is isn't native. He'll need a wizard to get there, at which point you hit him with Plane Shift to somewhere else - he won't be able to get back, only to/from the Material Plane and his native Plane, so he's effectively out of the fight. Admittedly that works on most people, but still; it's especially infuriaing for Planar Shepherds, for whom moving between Planes is their things. They don't like it if you play their own trick on them!

Challenge him to a fight in Sigil. It'd be DM caveat as to whether or not the Lady would allow another plane to "enter" her city, and she'd probably be really pissed if he kept trying to do it without her permission.

Bring a rival Planar Shepherd also from Dal Quor, or from from Thelanis (7:1 time dilation) or Xoriat (60:1 time dilation) and return the favour unto them.

[Eldariel]

Kill him in his sleep. Activating the bubble takes an action, so it won't save him if he's not aware that he needs to be in it.

While this is true, remember the rest of the character: he's not only got Planar Bubble, he's also a souped up Full Caster with Wildshape allowing him to access Outsiders' myriad of SLAs including Wish from a number of sources (as an SLA, so without a cost) very easily and remain in Outsider forms for hours/level, teleport/plane shift around freely and so on. In short, a really hard target to find, pin down and attack unawares. Even Foresight is on Druid spell list.


Sneak Attack. Boost your Initiative to absurd levels, Hide In Shadows/Improved Invisibility and shank him dead before he can react. Works especially well when he isn't Wild Shaped, as being a 10/Shepherd doesn't inherently change his type to anything that would be immune to sneak attacks, like 20/Monk might.

Monk 20 is certainly subject to sneak attacks unless they have item based immunities. Outsider-type grants no immunity. Planar Shepherd's Wildshape lasts so long that he never has a reason to be in a mundane form though, but again, Outsiders are not immune (though he might just have a Greater Fortifications Wild Armor which would make him immune). Not that it matters, just replace Sneak Attack with Power Attack Charge (e.g. Bounding Assault Maneuver) and keep the rest the same and you've got yourself a workable environment...though you're still taking on a high level caster as a mundane which has more than a million problems.


Similarly, if you can get that close to them (Teleport will help in that regard) then Grapple him to death. I'm pretty sure that the Planar Bubble effects everyone within its radius and the Shepherd cannot consciously exclude anyone, so as long as you can get close then YOU also get 10 rounds to strangle him to death before the rest of his party can react.

Druid has Wildshape. His Grapple-score is gonna be way higher than most things that he might actually run into. He also has Freedom of Movement lasting 10 min/level off his 4th level slots or 20 min/level off his 5th level slots (so we're talking many hours here), swift action teleportation spells (Master Earth for example) so I really recommend against this one.


If you're feeling particularly sadistic, get something like a Vampire, Wight or Succubi to do it and Level Drain him to 4/Shepherd, and then Planar Bubble is no longer a problem.

Druids also know Death Ward so I'm not sure this is a particularly effective way of going about it (certainly, if he's caught completely unawares the spell's short duration might allow sneaking one hit in). Not to mention all the SLAs a Planar Shepherd's Wildshape opens up.


Contingency a Save Or Die spell. So long as the trigger is "when combat is declared" a level-equivalent Wizard or Sorcerer (probably 15 or more, depending on how the Shepherd met his requisites) should easily be able to nuke down a single target in a round. Add Celerity to the Contingency or just otherwise boost your Initiative to make sure that you get your normal action, if you would rather have more control over what you cast, but the principal is the same.

I'm not sure "when combat is declared" is a valid Contingency trigger, since at least to me it seems like a metagame consideration rather than a game consideration; YMMV. That's not necessarily a problem though: you could conceivably just tie it to talking (which is a free action) and have some way to avoid flatfootedness (e.g. Cunning Legacy Weapon, Foresight spell or Divine Oracle class feature).


Maybe even Plane Shift him to somewhere that he isn't native, like Baator. He won't be able to get back as his ability only works to/from his Native plane, and once his Bubble wears off then he'll start taking cold damage every round just like everyone else.

Plane Shift is unlikely to be very effective here due to how easily a Planar Shepherd can access Plane Shift through their Outsider Wildshape but you could certainly substitute any generic save-or-die/lose type effect the target might be vulnerable. Cast a spell that eliminates the target or hit them hard enough that they die before they can act; either works just as well (but hinges on them not being able to act, which some items and Wildshape forms can throw a wrench into).

[Wraith]

Monk 20 is certainly subject to sneak attacks unless they have item based immunities. Outsider-type grants no immunity.

For some reason I had it in my head that a Monk's version Outsider was atypical. Oh well, you're still right - just splatter him with massive physical damage in one-shot. Sneak Attack was the most obvious one I could think of.

Although bare in mind that Planar Shepherd/10 can be made as early as Level 15; the Druid in question is not necessarily at such high level as to access all the REALLY good wild shape forms and abilities. It's definitely something to consider with regards to the build and their place in the campaign, but I think it's plausible if not necessarily efficient.


Druid has Wildshape. His Grapple-score is gonna be way higher than most things that he might actually run into.

I concede that it's not necessarily efficient, but again, it's doable. Whatever Plane he's on, I'm pretty sure there will be someone or something with a STR score absurbly higher than that of a Quori. If in doubt, have there be two of them. :smalltongue:


Plane Shift is unlikely to be very effective here due to how easily a Planar Shepherd can access Plane Shift through their Outsider Wildshape but you could certainly substitute any generic save-or-die/lose type effect the target might be vulnerable. Cast a spell that eliminates the target or hit them hard enough that they die before they can act; either works just as well (but hinges on them not being able to act, which some items and Wildshape forms can throw a wrench into).

In other words, it gets reduced to rocket-tag - whichever player throws up their overpowered ability first, wins. However else we flavour it, I think that was always going to be the inevitable conclusion of fighting a 10/Shepherd, whether you do it through magical means or by Shock Trooper-ing them into paste. :smalltongue:

[Segev]

Action deficit kills, but only when the beneficiary knows what to do. As with any personal power, one way to challenge its bearer is to present them with mysteries and situations where they don’t know where to apply it. The challenge becomes figuring that out. Sure, once Superman knows who to punch, he can be guaranteed victory. But he ha to know who to punch, first.

A really simple example would be any traps that would challenge any other Druid. He can go fast, but that doesn’t make the trap go away.

The high level wizard with his private crafting demiplane can also enjoy the time dilation advantage. Force the fight there.

Send enemies to assault where the planar shepherd isn’t, but cares about what happens. Attack his grove, or kidnap his girlfriend, or anything else that forces him to react after the challenge is laid down.

Use psions abusing their action economy tricks in direct confrontation.

Use stealth masters buffed to the nines who act then go undetectable. With 10 rounds to the hiding villain’s one, the Planar Shepherd May get a lot of tries, but if he can’t find the target between the target’s actions, he just gets one readied action to react with when the enemy decloaks to act.

Use social challenges and encounters. He will have to drop the bubble to communicate in real time. Going fast doesn’t help there.

Does dimension al anchor shut down a planar bubble?

[Eldariel]

In other words, it gets reduced to rocket-tag - whichever player throws up their overpowered ability first, wins. However else we flavour it, I think that was always going to be the inevitable conclusion of fighting a 10/Shepherd, whether you do it through magical means or by Shock Trooper-ing them into paste. :smalltongue:

This is kinda true though there's the other side of the equation too: there's a lot of ways to be immune to stuff (including death by HP damage [Delay Death + Beastland Ferocity [Spell Compendium] - persistent if desired; also Hide Life [Tome & Blood]] , HP damage in general [Regeneration + Favor of the Martyr or similar], "everything" [just steal the body of an Aleax or turn into one or whatever]). Which means high level rocket tag is a game about not only using bull**** abilities to do whatever but:
- Figuring out what kinds of immunities your target has in place
- Having a plan to strip some/all/key ones of those
- Locating the target. High level bull**** offers a lot of ways to be really hard to find.
- Getting to the target without them being able to act first. Again, yeah, Contingencies in particular make this tricky.
- Hitting them with something that splats them through those immunities.

So...much of the fight is decided before it ever takes place. Fighting blind is liable to get you killed or have one of those wet noodle fights where you hit enemy with a million things and nothing happens until you finally hit them with something surprising and it turns out you were fighting a Dream Image the whole time :smalltongue:

[Endarire]

What a discussion so far! My main intent is to determine how to challenge this Druid5/Planar Shepherd5+ using his time bubble once the time bubble is active. (It requires Concentration to maintain, but the skill trick Swift Concentration is available at this point to maintain it as a swift action.)

Let's assume the Planar Bubble's time trait functions as commonly believed - that is, whenever it's active.

Remember these significant points:

-Planar Bubble (20' radius, duration of Concentration to a maximum of 1 hour per HD + d10 rounds) comes at Shepherd5. By this point, a Druid already has plane shift 1/day but only between the Material Plane and his native plane (Dal Quor). This shiftin' becomes 2/day at Shepherd8 and 3/day at Shepherd10.

-Magical Beast form (probably applicable only to Quorbound & Quorbred creatures from Secrets of Sarlona 150-152) follows normal Wild Shape rules. (You don't get more Ex, Su, Ps, nor Sp abilities that normal, unlike with Outsider form.)

-Outsider form comes only at Shepherd9 or level 14. With enough Wild Shape levels, it's possible for a Planar Shepherd to Wild Shape into a Planar Shepherd10 of his chosen plane and get all the abilities of this new form! (This point is secondary.)

-Xoriat's time trait flows 40:1 backwards, not forwards.

-Aside from having a very long reach, melee isn't wise since it allows foes to enter your safe haven of 10:1 time. Having ranged allies in this bubble or/and melee allies at the edge of this bubble seems necessary for winning fights long-term.

-Social situations are still possible if the Bubbled Shepherd is close enough to the socialite. Time 'pauses' outside of dialog, like in many video games' cutscenes.

[MisterKaws]

Send an army of Quaruts on them, because Mechanus doesn't like people messing with the fabric of reality.

If that's not enough, send even more and advance them to 54 HD.

If they're still alive, you just get any Law god and get them to send an Aleax of the same Druid to hunt the first. And give it an Artifact of your god, tailor-made to screw the Druid. Don't forget to have a kill-switch on the artifact, though.

[magic9mushroom]

-Magical Beast form (probably applicable only to Quorbound & Quorbred creatures from Secrets of Sarlona 150-152) follows normal Wild Shape rules. (You don't get more Ex, Su, Ps, nor Sp abilities that normal, unlike with Outsider form.)

Nope. Quorbound and Quorbred are still native to the Material. Magical Beast form does nothing for a Dal Quor Planar Shepherd, because there are no magical beasts native to Dal Quor.


-Outsider form comes only at Shepherd9 or level 14. With enough Wild Shape levels, it's possible for a Planar Shepherd to Wild Shape into a Planar Shepherd10 of his chosen plane and get all the abilities of this new form! (This point is secondary.)

Preeeetty sure you can't Wild Shape into a monster with class levels.


-Xoriat's time trait flows 40:1 backwards, not forwards.

It's 60:1, and it's not "backwards" so much as "slower". 1 minute in Xoriat = 1 hour on the Material.

[Chalhubard]

Suppose you could have yourself go through a Ritual of the Timeless Soul (Player's Guide to Eberron p.60), which makes you immune to any harmful effects of flowing time planar effects. From there, just Celerity your way through initiative order and charge in with whatever persisted combat buffs you had up and running.

Alternatively, you could have yourself a couple of objects forged in various places with nasty planar traits. Lesser Planar Bind a Ravid to make them Animated Objects or cast the spell yourself. Now that we have creatures native to various hazardous planar environments, Sculpt a Planar Bubble into a line or whatever and stack multiple layers of damage per round or whatever on the shepherd. RAW never specifies what happens when you have an effect originating from an area flowing in a different time trait than that of its target - as time is tenfolds faster on the shepherd's side, it would be a fair assumption that he is affected by the Sculpted bubble 10 times during your interruption round.

You could also have a Twinned Planar Breach (reduced to a standard action casting-time by the means of Supernatural Spell, Alacritous Cogitation, Uncanny Forethought, Shardalyn, Glyph Seal, Shalantha's Delicate Disk, Anima Mage's capstone or whatever) leak a nasty trait (even dead magic if you can somehow mess with the spell's end destination (Planar Bard substitution levels or Portal-to-Portal Redirect spell from the Underdark book) to either have the shepherd experience his worst day ever or to simply whisk him away to the Elemental Plane of Ranch Dressing or whatever floats your boat.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A 3rd level spell or a 3rd level maneuver completely trumps it.


Option One:

Warblade walks into the bubble and uses Iron Heart Surge to end the effect immediately. No more planar bubble, no more shenanigans.


Option Two:

Dal Quor has subjective directional gravity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#subjectiveDirectionalGravity), as does that planar bubble. Shrink Item on a metal dome worn as a skullcap is a fairly standard tactic used by wizards to avoid antimagic fields (because the AMF unshrinks it, and it surrounds him on all sides when unshrunk, blocking the AMF's line of effect to him; he simply teleports out from under and away from the AMF). Such a character moves into the Dal Quor bubble, chooses his directional gravity as straight toward the planar shepherd, 'falls' at a speed of 150 ft. on the first round headfirst toward him. He speaks the command to unshrink his attended metal dome, he could even take it off and turn it toward the opponent so they end up inside of it. The dome continues to travel the same direction at the same speed and even out of the planar bubble a ways due to momentum, due to its size and weight he wouldn't have any chance of stopping it. He could make a Reflex save to avoid it, but doing so would mean leaving the planar bubble, otherwise it just pushes him out of the bubble anyway.


Option three:

Shrink Item again, throw a patch of shrunken lava or acid into the planar bubble and speak the command word to unshrink it. The substance is unattended so there's no gravity affecting it, it simply expands to fill the bubble and floats there. Total immersion in acid deals 10d6 damage per round, and if it's opaque it completely blocks his vision and he won't have line of sight to anything at all. Total immersion in lava deals 20d6 damage per round, and also completely blocks his vision, preventing him from targeting anything with spells until he leaves the acid- and/or lava-filled bubble.

[noob]

Step 1: be born in far realms.
step 2: cast planar bubble.
Now you have indescribable amounts of time.

[Wraith]

So...much of the fight is decided before it ever takes place. Fighting blind is liable to get you killed or have one of those wet noodle fights where you hit enemy with a million things and nothing happens until you finally hit them with something surprising and it turns out you were fighting a Dream Image the whole time :smalltongue:

You're not wrong, but the problem is always the same one that complicates any D&D discussion - we're quickly reaching Schroedinger's Shepherd in terms of abilities and active spells. He *can* cast Freedom and Death Ward - did he? Or is he expecting to win initiative, throw down his bubble and spend 9 more actions buffing himself to ridiculous levels in the safety of his parallel time-dimension? :smalltongue:

All I wanted to do was suggest ways that could, in theory, work. By all means, tinker with the details (Contingency>Dispel and other similar effects wouldn't be a terrible first step, for example) but the methods are plausible once you have taken the "normal" difficulties into account. :smallsmile:

[Mr Adventurer]

Skill tricks only work once per encounter, so at most this would seem to get him one additional turn. Or ten times as many Move and Swift actions, I suppose, which could still be leveraged.

[Mato]

-Xoriat's time trait flows 60:1 backwards, not forwards.Which is why a wizard has the option to cast a widened selective planar bubble(not the class feature, the 7th level spell printed in the SpC) and choose to exclude him self, so he gets sixty rounds to deal with anyone charging him.

He can also use this with a normal planar bubble using Dal Quor, the two spells don't stack so you can use the longest duration rule to force Xorait to affect others if it's cast second. And since the wizard isn't affected by that one, he moves ten times faster than everyone else in normal time or six hundred times faster than anyone caught in the Xoriat time field.



Q: How best to challenge a Dal Quor Planar Shepherd using his 10:1 time bubble?
A: The planar shepherd has no rule-granted ability to dodge, no bonuses to armor class, and nothing in the rules grants the planar shephard extra immediate actions when it is someone else's turn. So if it is a minion's turn you just have him attack the druid as normal and traps also work just fine.

This area has a 20-foot radius and lasts as long as you concentrate (up to a maximum of 1 hour per level) plus 1d10 rounds.Normally you don't have to concentrate on supernatural abilities but planar bubble forces you to.

It takes a standard action to concentrate on a spell or spell-like abilityRC8 and each time the planar shepherd is damage he needs to make a concentration check equal to 10 + the damage he has sustained for each successful hitRC33. As a 1/day ability until the 20th level, it's fairly easy to your campaign's BBEG to counter this spell-like ability before the real fight. And as mentioned, there are more powerful versions of this tactic available to other classes (which can utilize it several more times per day as well).