Anti-Dragon spells - thoughts on Bestow Curse?

[Zirconia]

I'm in a campaign in which I strongly suspect we will fight a few dragons in future levels, and as the wizard and only long term planner of the bunch, am thinking about what spells might be useful in said dragon fights. We will probably start fighting them when we only have access to 4th level spells, so I'm looking at options for Concentration spells in that range. I realize one option is Flying or Hasting my fellow martials, but I happened to be looking at Bestow Curse, and the "no action in a round when you fail a Wisdom save" feature looked interesting, as it reminded me of old-school Slow. I realize dragons have Legendary Resistance, perhaps between the cleric and myself we can burn through them by hitting it with other spells. The upside to Bestow Curse is that unlike most other control spells which end on a successful save, this doesn't, the foe can keep succeeding or failing for the full duration. With a typical casting stat it should be about 50:50 on the saves, which essentially doubles the whole party's damage relative to the dragon's since half the time it is doing nothing. I would use an owl familiar with fly-by attack to deliver it, I'm not suicidal.

So I'm curious if anyone has tried this, or if there are better spells or tactics I haven't thought of in the 4th and lower wizard spell range, potentially combined with 4th and lower cleric spells? Other party members are a Barbarian (Warrior of the Gods), Paladin (Devotion) and Rogue (Inquisitive).

[Wildarm]

Bestow curse is good for sure, but like any spell that you want to hit a dragon with, you need to get past it's high saves and legendary resistances. Wis, Dex or Cha saves are the best choices for that.

To be honest, just having some anti-movement spells prepared will go a long way. Anything that causes a flying dragon's speed to be reduced to 0 or knocks it prone will cause it to fall to the ground. This will give a bit of damage but more importantly, it allows your melee team to engage the creature without the need of additional buffs such as flight. Otherwise dragons have no problem strafing in with a breath weapon then circling out of range till it recharges. You will die painfully if it is able to do this tactic unopposed. Same thing goes for preventing the burrowing ones from going underground or swimming ones to be underwater. You need to be prepared for these tactics so know what your foe can do and prepare for it.

[Zirconia]

I was looking for anti-movement spells as well, Earthbind would be great if it wasn't a strength save which Dragon's are very good at, Tasha's Laughter gives another save with advantage on damage, so it would look like "Dragon fails save, drops to ground, takes damage, saves, uses Legendary Action to fly away again on the next person's turn". Hypnotic Pattern has the same issue, ends on damage. Web won't work in the air, Phantasmal Force won't work on an Adult dragon because it is too big.

When we get to 4th level spells, Confusion is pretty good, but I wouldn't have many 4th level slots, and it ends on save. Polymorph looks like the best option, if I can get it to burn some Resistances before hand.

[Dungeon-noob]

One thing that very much stands out to me when reading the various dragon statblocks is that their dex saves are their weakest. I know the eaviest evocations (fireball, lighting bolt, others) target it, and since it's just damage and save for half, he might not even spend a legendary resistance on it. Pack heavy enough firepower, and you don't need to get complicated with strategies and tailored plans: use the Xykon approach, and team up with your hasted martials and just sledgehammer it to death. Disintegrate+fireball/lighting bolt depending on resistance=18d6+40 damage over two turns. Early on the earlier mentioned damage duo covers a lot, and does the most damage at 4th level as well. Immolation from Xanathar's is also a nice sustained damage spell for non-fire resistant dragons. Storm sphere might interest you for the arial battlefield control. That's just what comes to my mind, since the dragon statblock is built with a lot of the disabling strategies in mind.

*edit* okay, second weakest save, but int doesn't count, as you don't really ave anything at those levels that interacts with it, unless you can get clever with phantasmal force. someone on his back stabbing him maybe?

[sophontteks]

Give enlarge to your martials. They just grapple, and wala, dragon's movement is 0. It bypasses legendary resistance. Dragon wasting its action to escape is a win in itself, and it'll lose this check more often then not. Trick is probably getting your martials in range of a grapple.

[Dungeon-noob]

Give enlarge to your martials. They just grapple, and wala, dragon's movement is 0. It bypasses legendary resistance. Dragon wasting its action to escape is a win in itself, and it'll lose this check more often then not. Trick is probably getting your martials in range of a grapple.
How much can you help with getting them in range? Jump, longstrider, any kind of battlefield manipulation? Fly and enhance ability are out, because conc. I'm not really getting much without conc. What you COULD do, but be very expensive in spell slots, is have someone fly up on the dragon, you drop fly and switch to enlarge. Would that be workable?

[sophontteks]

I was thinking more like luring the dragon down, or tricking it.

[Wildarm]

- Sleet Storm can drop it prone. Difficult to keep it there though as I think it can just stand and fly again.
- Earthen Grasp is good to restrain but it's a Str save and it needs to be on the ground first
- Web lasts till the start of your next turn if not anchored. Can work Dex save but the dragon can take it's action to make a Str save to break free and fly again. Not terrible since at least it wastes an action if it fails it's dex save.
- Hold Monster is great but 5th level

Tasha's Hideous laughter is probably your best bet at this level. Wis save causing damage + falling damage. It gets another save with advantage when it hits the ground. The critical part of this is to have an enlarged grappler ready an action just below the dragon to grab it. This requires the grappler goes before you and after the dragon AND can move adjacent to where the dragon would fall prone. All possible but is no means guaranteed. If you fail the setup, at least you did a bit of falling damage and forced the dragon to spend a legendary action at the end of your turn to fly again.

In the end you're probably just better off casting fly on the enlarged grappler and let him go wrestle the dragon to the ground.

[trollballz]

Might help to reevaluate the goal, the goal is to get your party in contact with the dragon. You dont necessarily have to ground it.

Upcast fly to send multiple fighters at it, Dimension door a friend next to it, thunder step lets you bring a friend too. Also you can plan to block the dragon in with wall of stone or the like. Potions of fly and spider climb can also help with this.

This is going to be the more consistent way of getting people in contact with the dragon, especially early in the fight when it has legendary resistance. I would make plans around grounding it but I wouldnt bet the farm on them.

For higher levels Irresistible Dance will help, the dragon only gets a save after its first round of dancing. Its 6th level so higher than you asked for but its a good addition. Also check out Contagion since it works for multiple rounds guaranteed (but does require melee range).

[Great Dragon]

If possible, you could get (or create) Magical Items to help.

Wand of Banishment could be used to burn through those Legendary Resistances when the Dragon fails it's normal save. Plus, when successful, unless the Dragon has minions, it's stuck there until your ready to deal with it.

Also, makes using Bestow Curse more likely to be effective, then combine with other items/spells and party teamwork.

[Dungeon-noob]

Snip Also check out Contagion since it works for multiple rounds guaranteed (but does require melee range).
Contagion actually has been clarified not to do anything untill after the three saves, so no, it really doesn't help here. Sorry.

[Bloodcloud]

A flying monk can burn through those save quick and cause a fall. Best case scenario I think.

[stoutstien]

Contagion actually has been clarified not to do anything untill after the three saves, so no, it really doesn't help here. Sorry.
It does impose poison condition until they pass/fail three times and it still can eat up LR so it's still a good spell if u get it to stick

[Sigreid]

I like Sickening Radiance if you can pin the dragon in an area. The damage isn't that big, but dragons aren't immune to exhaustion. So it's likely that it will burn their LR pretty quickly.

[Dungeon-noob]

I like Sickening Radiance if you can pin the dragon in an area. The damage isn't that big, but dragons aren't immune to exhaustion. So it's likely that it will burn their LR pretty quickly.
True, the spell is neat, but it's a CON save, and they're a lot better at those. Get to be their best later on. So while the effect works well, it's very hard to pull of, with legendary saves making your odds even worse.

It does impose poison condition until they pass/fail three times and it still can eat up LR so it's still a good spell if u get it to stick
Where are you getting that from? I don't see that anywhere in the spell. It doesn't do anything untill three saves are failed.

[stoutstien]

True, the spell is neat, but it's a CON save, and they're a lot better at those. Get to be their best later on. So while the effect works well, it's very hard to pull of, with legendary saves making your odds even worse.

Where are you getting that from? I don't see that anywhere in the spell. It doesn't do anything untill three saves are failed.
They eratta it last year I believe. Was in the Nov one for sure bc that the one I printed out

[Sigreid]

True, the spell is neat, but it's a CON save, and they're a lot better at those. Get to be their best later on. So while the effect works well, it's very hard to pull of, with legendary saves making your odds even worse.



Yes. But the idea I didn't fully explain is that the exhaustion effect on a recurring damage spell is not something even a dragon can ignore. Pair that with other spells you can cast that don't require concentration and/or spells and save effects from other casters and you're gong to most likely chew up his LR really quickly and then the real fun begins. Yes, he's got a high chance to make the save on any given round, but it really helps you force them to make a lot of saves really quickly, over all reducing the effectiveness of their LR and just making them have to keep trying to stay off that low roll. Also, if they know what SR can do to them, they may eat an effect they would ordinarily use their legendary resistance on so they have it for that exhaustion effect.

[Keravath]

Dragons are almost entirely martial with no spell abilities. In this situation a wall of force becomes an extremely effective measure for containment.

If one has landed on the ground, cast a wall of force dome over top of it with a couple inches clearance so at the bottom edge so you can cast spells/shoot at its feet. Casting a spherical wall of force on one will take it out of the fight while you deal with the minions.

Depending on the rules used at your table in terms of spell casting through a wall of force you might be able to use some spells against it.

[Contrast]

Where are you getting that from? I don't see that anywhere in the spell. It doesn't do anything untill three saves are failed.

For reference the new text reads:


Your touch inflicts disease. Make a melee spell attack against a creature within your reach. On a hit, the target is poisoned.

At the end of each of the poisoned target's turns, the target must make a Constitution saving throw. If the target succeeds on three of these saves, it is no longer poisoned, and the spell ends. If the target fails three of these saves, the target is no longer poisoned, but choose one of the diseases below. The target is subjected to the chosen disease for the spell's duration.

[Sigreid]

For reference the new text reads:

So, Contagion then Sickening Radiance then hammer them your saving throw spell of choice, probably a Dex one and you should be able to fry their legendary resistance and get a fail against something in just a couple of rounds. Especially if you have another caster in the group and/or a monk tossing ye 'ol stunning strike. :smallbiggrin:

[sophontteks]

So, Contagion then Sickening Radiance then hammer them your saving throw spell of choice, probably a Dex one and you should be able to fry their legendary resistance and get a fail against something in just a couple of rounds. Especially if you have another caster in the group and/or a monk tossing ye 'ol stunning strike. :smallbiggrin:
This is all still contingent on the dragon being pinned down, which means someone is still concentrating on enlarge/reduce too.

[Sigreid]

This is all still contingent on the dragon being pinned down, which means someone is still concentrating on enlarge/reduce too.

Or maybe you collapsed the entrance to his lair or something.

[sophontteks]

Or maybe you collapsed the entrance to his lair or something.
With your party trapped inside?

[Sigreid]

With your party trapped inside?

It wouldn't be the first time we created a do or die situation to keep the enemy from getting away.

[sophontteks]

It wouldn't be the first time we created a do or die situation to keep the enemy from getting away.
The dragons lair is bigger then a 30 foot cube unless the dragon has a irresponsible owner that keeps him in a cage or something. He's gonna want a lair that he can live comfortably in. The bigger problem is that you are trapped in a cave without a way out.

[Sigreid]

The dragons lair is bigger then a 30 foot cube unless the dragon has a irresponsible owner that keeps him in a cage or something. He's gonna want a lair that he can live comfortably in. The bigger problem is that you are trapped in a cave without a way out.

A baseline assumption of mine would be that a party going after a dragon in its lair would be able to get themselves out, perhaps after a long rest in the cavern if the win.

As far as the actual trapping? You are correct that the party would need to have a really good idea of the ground they were going to fight on and a great plan.

Edit: it might be helpful to know that our group tends to be a combat as war group that will expend considerable effort to pursue and finish all opponents from a battle.

[Ritorix]

First of all, prepare Absorb Elements. That can save you from a nasty breath weapon death.

Second, prepare Ray of Enfeeblement. It halves strength weapon damage. That includes things like dragon claw/bite/tail attacks. This is fantastic for boss battles because it avoids Legendary Saves, requiring only the initial attack to hit. On later turns the target gets a Con save but you are guaranteed that first turn if you hit. That means a lot in a fight against something with Legendary Actions for additional attacks. All of those will be at half damage and you will neuter it with a cheap spell. And since you have a barbarian in the group, he'll only be taking a quarter damage on attacks, since your halving is 'up front' during the damage roll and his is from rage resists.

Effective use does depend a bit on the initiative order. If the dragon already used a breath attack, even better. Ideally, you want to either ready the spell or actually go right after the dragon, so all the legendary action attacks and it's next full turn are debuffed. Then it will probably save, but that's ok, you only spent a 2nd-level slot to halve most damage in a round.

As far as buffs to get from your team, Bless will go a long way to helping you hit, and you'll need the save bonus for fear and breath attacks.

One thing you really shouldn't try to do is burn through Legendary Saves. That's a waste of time. Dragons already have high saves, they will naturally save vs a lot of things. The few they fail will burn a Legendary, or they might just let it happen if it's not a big debuff. On boss fights it's better to either deal straight "vs AC" damage and/or focus on buffing your allies so they can kill it faster. In the case of Ray, you would be intentionally slowing incoming damage so your team has more actions (from not dieing/playing defensive) to murder the dragon.

[Sigreid]

There's a 5th level paladin spell that turns all save for half effects to save for none, covering allies within 30 feet. That's a good one for dragon fighting.

[Zirconia]

Nice idea about the Enlarged grappling, that hadn't occurred to me, though the timing could be pretty tricky with me being the only one who can cast both Fly and Enlarge. I do hope to stock up on some scrolls/potions before fighting dragons, but the DM already said we can't make anything magic, they will only be "found" treasure, so I don't plan to base tactics on them.

As suggested, I could use Tasha's Laughter to drop it at least briefly, but again I can't keep someone Enlarged to be ready. Maybe the cleric can use Command to get it to grovel (= prone), though she may be keeping Calm Emotions on us to block the dragon fear effect. Interesting alternative use of Command, "Approach" makes a foe come near you then end its turn, having that Readied might be a way to cause it to lose a turn and bring it down to the ground.

[Nhorianscum]

I'm in a campaign in which I strongly suspect we will fight a few dragons in future levels, and as the wizard and only long term planner of the bunch, am thinking about what spells might be useful in said dragon fights. We will probably start fighting them when we only have access to 4th level spells, so I'm looking at options for Concentration spells in that range. I realize one option is Flying or Hasting my fellow martials, but I happened to be looking at Bestow Curse, and the "no action in a round when you fail a Wisdom save" feature looked interesting, as it reminded me of old-school Slow. I realize dragons have Legendary Resistance, perhaps between the cleric and myself we can burn through them by hitting it with other spells. The upside to Bestow Curse is that unlike most other control spells which end on a successful save, this doesn't, the foe can keep succeeding or failing for the full duration. With a typical casting stat it should be about 50:50 on the saves, which essentially doubles the whole party's damage relative to the dragon's since half the time it is doing nothing. I would use an owl familiar with fly-by attack to deliver it, I'm not suicidal.

So I'm curious if anyone has tried this, or if there are better spells or tactics I haven't thought of in the 4th and lower wizard spell range, potentially combined with 4th and lower cleric spells? Other party members are a Barbarian (Warrior of the Gods), Paladin (Devotion) and Rogue (Inquisitive).

It's good if you cast it at 5th level and can touch the flying death lizard with 3 LR's burned.

The cleric spamming command is a good plan though. It has a greater impact than bestows wis save for nothing at a first level slot use.