Making a character less boring.

[Starkeeper]

I'm currently playing a level 4 Cleric with rather poor stats, the game started with rolled stats and, while I'm not sure what stats the others ended up with, an educated guess puts me around 10 points behind what the party average feels like, though I'm thinking it's worse than that. The character has 16 Wis, 15 Cha, negative Str and everything else is just neutral, Cloistered Cleric and every other ACF/variant I've requested were denied and the DM doesn't allow full access to divine spells, I need time to research anything new I want to cast.

I do enjoy roleplaying this character but combats are a chore, essentially, all I do is drop a buff or two, maybe a Spiritual Weapon and just spend the rest of the fight staying in Total Defense and trying to offer Flanking, it's mind-numbingly boring. I can't even qualify for any Prestige Classes at the moment either due to the cripplingly low amount of Skill Points I get as a regular Cleric and no Int bonus.

I'd rather not but it seems like the only option left for me really is dipping, but I'd prefer keeping it at 1 level if possible, but I'm unsure what to even go into. ToB has a flat ban on it unfortunately, same for ToM, the rest of 3.5 seems to be open but requires approval from the DM on a case-by-case basis.

At this point I'm a bit at a loss on what to do and so I come for assistance.

Edit: Game is mainly 3.5 with some cherry-picking from 3.0.

[Particle_Man]

I would go the summoning route. You might want to look at the Malconvoker prestige class. The critters you summon can protect you and do something in combat.

[Telonius]

Yikes. That's not a Cleric, that's an Archivist minus the class features.

What's the character's alignment, and what's the deity? I've been playing a Cleric/Warlock/Eldritch Disciple for a while now, and it's been great fun. The setup works particularly well with low-stat characters, since Warlock doesn't really need too much of anything to function; and the skill prereqs are really easy. I've been using Cleric casting for buffs, and Eldritch Blast for offense.

[razorback]

What race and god?
Also, what books are available?
Negative strength is an issue in combat but perhaps going the ranged route using Zen Archery from the Complete Warrior can mitigate that somewhat. If you're going to stay in melee, get a long spear so you have reach, which will allow you to flank and keep distance. Get a gauntlet for things that close and you can't move away from.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

What are your domains? What are your current feats? What's your race?

With stats like that, you would probably want to get the Fire domain, always prepare Produce Flame but never cast it, and take the Fiery Burst reserve feat in CM at 3rd level. That allows you to deal 2d6 damage to a 2x2 square up to 30 ft. away at will. Once you get 3rd level spells, prepare Darkfire or Energy Vortex (SC) every day and Fiery Burst does 3d6 damage. As you gain access to each new level of spells after 3rd, whatever the Fire domain offers is going to be able to power your Fiery Burst.

[Starkeeper]

I would go the summoning route. You might want to look at the Malconvoker prestige class. The critters you summon can protect you and do something in combat.

It's a possibility but Bluff Skill isn't on the Cleric list and I'll have to pick up both Celestial and Infernal too, with just 3 Skill Points a level it's going to be a pain to get in, might still go for it though, thanks!


Yikes. That's not a Cleric, that's an Archivist minus the class features.

What's the character's alignment, and what's the deity? I've been playing a Cleric/Warlock/Eldritch Disciple for a while now, and it's been great fun. The setup works particularly well with low-stat characters, since Warlock doesn't really need too much of anything to function; and the skill prereqs are really easy. I've been using Cleric casting for buffs, and Eldritch Blast for offense.

Unfortunately the character is Neutral Good worshipping a Lawful Good custom deity and cannot qualify for Eldritch Disciple, I did look at it for a very long time until I realized the alignment restriction. :smallfrown: The deity also disqualifies me from a lot of other Prestige Class as I've realized.


What race and god?
Also, what books are available?
Negative strength is an issue in combat but perhaps going the ranged route using Zen Archery from the Complete Warrior can mitigate that somewhat. If you're going to stay in melee, get a long spear so you have reach, which will allow you to flank and keep distance. Get a gauntlet for things that close and you can't move away from.

Human and a custom Lawful Good deity, domains available are Destiny, Healing, Magic, Oracle and Pact, with Healing and Magic chosen, running the Imbued Healing Feat.

Books are mostly cherry-picked from, hard bans on ToB and ToM. Zen Archery with a Crossbow doesn't seem like the greatest idea and currently the character is mostly forced to use a Shield because his AC is poor and he had low HP rolls too...


What are your domains? What are your current feats? What's your race?

With stats like that, you would probably want to get the Fire domain, always prepare Produce Flame but never cast it, and take the Fiery Burst reserve feat in CM at 3rd level. That allows you to deal 2d6 damage to a 2x2 square up to 30 ft. away at will. Once you get 3rd level spells, prepare Darkfire or Energy Vortex (SC) every day and Fiery Burst does 3d6 damage. As you gain access to each new level of spells after 3rd, whatever the Fire domain offers is going to be able to power your Fiery Burst.

Healing and Magic domains chosen, with Destiny, Oracle and Pact available from the deity. Feats are Imbued Healing, Extend Spell and Protection Devotion that I'll retrain when going into DMM at level 6. Race is Human. I have to admit I didn't even consider going for Fiery Burst, but we have a fire-specialized caster in the party so the overlap would be unfortunate.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You could retrain your 3rd level feat into Winter's Blast, there's at least one cold spell of every level on the Cleric list if you have Frostburn. Otherwise maybe take Storm Bolt at 6th.

[King of Nowhere]

unfortunately, clerics at low level can't do much, unless they use some serious optimization that I infer is banned at your table. you can become pretty strong later, though.

[Biggus]

It's a possibility but Bluff Skill isn't on the Cleric list and I'll have to pick up both Celestial and Infernal too, with just 3 Skill Points a level it's going to be a pain to get in

If you want to go the summoning route to stay out of danger while contributing to the fight, Thaumaturgist is a decent prestige class which doesn't require any skill ranks to enter. On the downside, its d4 HD makes you even squishier...

[Darrin]

Spell advice for clerics. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?514702-good-cleric-spells&p=21691649#post21691649) Also, the magic domain lets you use sorcerer/wizard wands. When you get some funds, consider picking up some utility wands (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=12921450&postcount=8). Add a wand chamber (Dungeonscape) to almost any weapon for 100 GP. Add a Least Crystal of Return (300 GP, MIC), and you can draw any weapon/wand as a free action.

[Starkeeper]

You could retrain your 3rd level feat into Winter's Blast, there's at least one cold spell of every level on the Cleric list if you have Frostburn. Otherwise maybe take Storm Bolt at 6th.
Not a bad idea, I'm also reconsidering Fiery Burst since it fits the character well, thanks again for reminding me of it!


unfortunately, clerics at low level can't do much, unless they use some serious optimization that I infer is banned at your table. you can become pretty strong later, though.

Yeah that's what I kept telling myself but we level extremely slowly in this campaign and the sessions are only twice a week at best so I might have to wait a year before I start actually doing stuff, which is why I'm looking for alternatives.


If you want to go the summoning route to stay out of danger while contributing to the fight, Thaumaturgist is a decent prestige class which doesn't require any skill ranks to enter. On the downside, its d4 HD makes you even squishier...

I've completely glossed over that one, but that's definitely something I'll consider too, while it might take a while before I can get in and I'll be even squishier, at least the summons might make up for it.


Spell advice for clerics. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?514702-good-cleric-spells&p=21691649#post21691649) Also, the magic domain lets you use sorcerer/wizard wands. When you get some funds, consider picking up some utility wands (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=12921450&postcount=8). Add a wand chamber (Dungeonscape) to almost any weapon for 100 GP. Add a Least Crystal of Return (300 GP, MIC), and you can draw any weapon/wand as a free action.

Wow that's a great list of spells, I'll look over all of it and ask my DM about learning as many as I can, thank you!

The only Wand I have at the moment is a Benign Transposition one with very few charges left, money's another thing that's been a little difficult to get a hold of but I'll definitely try to pick up a few more when I can, another great list, thank you.

[flappeercraft]

I'd either convince the DM to change char or drop tbh. However since that is likely not to your liking, asking the DM if you can just change to be an Archivist would be a decent idea, after all you're literally an archivist but not as good and more complicated from what I see in the OP. Another option is to try RP staying at a church for a while and using their archives to learn your spells (assuming you learn spells like a wizard/archivist does) which would get you more versatility and options.

If SpC is allowed something to somewhat nullify your negative Strength score problem could be to learn the Ice Axe spell. It's 3rd level so you're just a level away from having it as an option. It would also help you qualify for the Winter's Blast reserve feat since you seem interested in those.

[King of Nowhere]

Yeah that's what I kept telling myself but we level extremely slowly in this campaign and the sessions are only twice a week at best so I might have to wait a year before I start actually doing stuff, which is why I'm looking for alternatives.



"Only" twice a week?
Among people i know in real life, and the people they know, no group plays more often than once per week.
more often once per two weeks, as real life keeps people busy.
count yourself lucky at least for the schedule

[ngilop]

I am so foncused (confused but mispelt to add emphasis) here..

You are a cleric and your character is boring?


I mean you can 100% change your character EVERY DAY just by selecting different spells?


You are 4th level, there are next to no prestige classes that you can enter (without early entry tricks) anyways.

I also have no ability to comprehend how meeting twice a week is slow leveling? I was meeting once a month and in 8 we were level 9 and had finished the campaign. and that is with a storytelling DM. You must not be leveling at all in your session to be going slow. I would expect at leas a level a week if I was meeting twice a week to play.


In the end. have you ever thought about just ya know.. picking different spells to be a completely different character?

I feel that all of your complaints are more soundly put in the 'valid low level complaints' box and not at all in the 'character box' no money, very few options (not really with casters), no chance to PrC are all nothing to do with your character but with just low level play. wait a level 5th level completely changes the game for clerics.


again, if you want to do something different you can just prepare different spells. You can pick summon spells and be a summoner one day. take sonic burst, light of lunia, and frost breath and be a blaster the next.

[Telonius]

I am so foncused (confused but mispelt to add emphasis) here..

You are a cleric and your character is boring?


I mean you can 100% change your character EVERY DAY just by selecting different spells?


You are 4th level, there are next to no prestige classes that you can enter (without early entry tricks) anyways.

I also have no ability to comprehend how meeting twice a week is slow leveling? I was meeting once a month and in 8 we were level 9 and had finished the campaign. and that is with a storytelling DM. You must not be leveling at all in your session to be going slow. I would expect at leas a level a week if I was meeting twice a week to play.


In the end. have you ever thought about just ya know.. picking different spells to be a completely different character?

I feel that all of your complaints are more soundly put in the 'valid low level complaints' box and not at all in the 'character box' no money, very few options (not really with casters), no chance to PrC are all nothing to do with your character but with just low level play. wait a level 5th level completely changes the game for clerics.


again, if you want to do something different you can just prepare different spells. You can pick summon spells and be a summoner one day. take sonic burst, light of lunia, and frost breath and be a blaster the next.

I think the problem with "choosing different spells" is in the houserule that that the DM is enforcing - the "Cleric" only has access to spells that he's researched, so there's a big limiting factor there, at least until higher levels where GP (hopefully) becomes more plentiful. (Though with the description of the DM from the post, I'd be cautious about assuming that either).

[Starkeeper]

I'd either convince the DM to change char or drop tbh. However since that is likely not to your liking, asking the DM if you can just change to be an Archivist would be a decent idea, after all you're literally an archivist but not as good and more complicated from what I see in the OP. Another option is to try RP staying at a church for a while and using their archives to learn your spells (assuming you learn spells like a wizard/archivist does) which would get you more versatility and options.

If SpC is allowed something to somewhat nullify your negative Strength score problem could be to learn the Ice Axe spell. It's 3rd level so you're just a level away from having it as an option. It would also help you qualify for the Winter's Blast reserve feat since you seem interested in those.

There was a discussion already concerning Class retraining from another player and it seems like that wouldn't be possible, though frankly, I decided to go Cleric instead of Archivist before the game started due to a nice picture I found, which I do regret now.

Ice Axe is something I was already looking at, hopefully I'll arrive there while remaining sane.


"Only" twice a week?
Among people i know in real life, and the people they know, no group plays more often than once per week.
more often once per two weeks, as real life keeps people busy.
count yourself lucky at least for the schedule

That's a very unfortunate brain fart from my part, we're not playing twice weekly, we're playing once per two to three weeks. :smalleek:


I am so foncused (confused but mispelt to add emphasis) here..

You are a cleric and your character is boring?


I mean you can 100% change your character EVERY DAY just by selecting different spells?


You are 4th level, there are next to no prestige classes that you can enter (without early entry tricks) anyways.

I also have no ability to comprehend how meeting twice a week is slow leveling? I was meeting once a month and in 8 we were level 9 and had finished the campaign. and that is with a storytelling DM. You must not be leveling at all in your session to be going slow. I would expect at leas a level a week if I was meeting twice a week to play.


In the end. have you ever thought about just ya know.. picking different spells to be a completely different character?

I feel that all of your complaints are more soundly put in the 'valid low level complaints' box and not at all in the 'character box' no money, very few options (not really with casters), no chance to PrC are all nothing to do with your character but with just low level play. wait a level 5th level completely changes the game for clerics.


again, if you want to do something different you can just prepare different spells. You can pick summon spells and be a summoner one day. take sonic burst, light of lunia, and frost breath and be a blaster the next.

I'm a Cleric with a limited spell selection, which makes it difficult to just change whatever I want to use every day, I'm working on expanding my repertoire but I'm mostly stuck with a certain set of spells at the moment.

I know that as a 4th level I can't qualify for any Prestige Classes short of Church Inquisitor and maybe a couple others I'm not familiar with, but what pains me is that even if I work towards them, I still can't take any until level 8-10 due to the lack of Skill Points.

There was an unfortunate brain fart concerning the playing frequency, it's only one session per two to three weeks and, at the moment, leveling only seems to happen every 6 or more session.

And yes, a lot of this grumbling is due to being low leveled, what I'm trying to do is just to find something slightly more useful than trying to stand around and provide flanking, I can't even fall back on giving something a wack due to the negative Str, it's just going to miss and even if it does it the damage gets hit with my Str penalty. While I'll admit lacking experience with Clerics, I don't see what would drastically change at level 5, 3rd level spells are nice and all but they're not going to carry me through everything.


I think the problem with "choosing different spells" is in the houserule that that the DM is enforcing - the "Cleric" only has access to spells that he's researched, so there's a big limiting factor there, at least until higher levels where GP (hopefully) becomes more plentiful. (Though with the description of the DM from the post, I'd be cautious about assuming that either).

Gold isn't required for the research, fortunately, but time is a limiting factor and also availability, I'm currently in a metropolis and even there I can't obtain some level 1-2 spells I was hoping to get so I do worry about higher level ones, it might require an entire quest just to learn a 5th or something...

[Eldariel]

Learn versatile spells. Silence on a pebble, sneak the party with it and then throw it at an enemy caster to block casting and hide the sounds of combat. SMII some dorks to take up space, aid another, flank. Actually, scratch that, use Conjure Ice Beast: they come witha menu of 2 useful options (ice damage aura, engulf or ice damage on hit; pick one of the former two) and both, 2 low level ones and one level appropriare are valid options. Cast Dark Way as a 5' Wall of Force. Ice Slick as Cleric's Grease. Don't forget to use your Orisons.

Also, pack alchemical items. Alchemist's Fire is heckuva much better than pebble or a crossbow. Tanglefoot Bag is actually quite powerful where applicable. You can Craft these yourself to save in expenses (granted, it would take some of your precious skillpoints). Might as well also try armed trip while in combat: you're not favored, but you just drop your weapon if you fail and opposed rolls have 38 points of die range, so you'll occasionally succeed (picking up or drawing a new weapon is a move action that doesn't provoke). Something to do while flanking. Might as well fight defensively while at it. Low odds of success, but big impact when it works.

[razorback]

Also, pack alchemical items. Alchemist's Fire is heckuva much better than pebble or a crossbow. Tanglefoot Bag is actually quite powerful where applicable. .
On this note, I think that a net is greatly undervalued at this level. Suck up the -4 nonproficiency as it's a touch attack and limit something from 10 feet away. Carry a couple and not have to wade into melee.

[ngilop]

Divine Oracle is a great PrC that requires a kinda 'why even' feat (skill focus: Knowledge( religion) and 8 ranks in knowledge(religion) and the ability to cast 2 divination spells (which you should have already even with limited spell access) .You get a bonus domain (Oracle) and some pretty sweet class abilities as well as full caster progression

[Quertus]

Play twice a week, yet slowly level. Control freak GM hacked the system to pieces, including adding spell research Cleric. Huge ban list, including ToB. Cannot acquire 1st level spells even in a metropolis. Character is boring.

I'm not seeing any hope here.

That said, what would you find "not boring"?

[StevenC21]

Honestly, I agree with Quertus.

Your DM is a bad DM. If you play that rarely, you absolutely shouldn't be dealing with these XP issues.

One of the core features of being a Cleric is the ability to retool.

For God's sake, I would walk away on that issue alone if he wouldn't see reason.

And then there's the rest of the issues.

At the very least, your DM should have noticed how ineffective your character is and provided something to help. Your DM needs to get it together and stop changing things he very clearly doesn't understand.

[Remuko]

Play twice a week, yet slowly level. Control freak GM hacked the system to pieces, including adding spell research Cleric. Huge ban list, including ToB. Cannot acquire 1st level spells even in a metropolis. Character is boring.

I'm not seeing any hope here.

That said, what would you find "not boring"?


Honestly, I agree with Quertus.

Your DM is a bad DM. If you play that rarely, you absolutely shouldn't be dealing with these XP issues.

One of the core features of being a Cleric is the ability to retool.

For God's sake, I would walk away on that issue alone if he wouldn't see reason.

And then there's the rest of the issues.

At the very least, your DM should have noticed how ineffective your character is and provided something to help. Your DM needs to get it together and stop changing things he very clearly doesn't understand.

did you guys read the replies from OP? he said the 2 times a week thing was an error on his part. They play once every 2-3 weeks not 2 times each week.

[StevenC21]

I saw the reply. That actually makes the problem worse. If they barely play, XP gain should be accelerated.

[KillianHawkeye]

If they barely play, XP gain should be accelerated.

Why? That doesn't make any sense, as the two things are unrelated. :smallconfused:

[King of Nowhere]

At the very least, your DM should have noticed how ineffective your character is and provided something to help. Your DM needs to get it together and stop changing things he very clearly doesn't understand.

this.
a dm wanting to make houserules to give a special flavor to his campaign is fine. a dm restricting stuff because he's afraid he won't be able to cope with them is not perfect, but not everyone can be a super expert. Maybe your DM had a game ruined by high op characters in the past and now he's erring on the side of caution. although a DM using bans like that is likely one that did not understand that balance is in the build, not the source. Actually I was like that at the beginning, when I got a lot of bad input from this forum without understanding the context to put it in.

however, a dm should try to ensure that everyone in the table has a chance to shine. this include helping one who is lagging behind.

So maybe you should just go talking to the guy and be all "so you see my cleric is almost useless in battle, can I get something to make up for it?" if the DM is reasonable, he should listen to you.

[Quertus]

I got a lot of bad input from this forum without understanding the context to put it in.

however, a dm should try to ensure that everyone in the table has a chance to shine. this include helping one who is lagging behind.

So maybe you should just go talking to the guy and be all "so you see my cleric is almost useless in battle, can I get something to make up for it?" if the DM is reasonable, he should listen to you.

This is probably the best, most actionable advice on the subject.

Sorry to hear you get bad advice from the Playground. Any advice you'd give us Playgrounders for future reference?

[King of Nowhere]

This is probably the best, most actionable advice on the subject.

Sorry to hear you get bad advice from the Playground. Any advice you'd give us Playgrounders for future reference?

Not really sure, except maybe to keep the discussions of casters vs martials in context of optimization level. Nowadays it's better than it was a couple years ago. Or maybe I just know how to interpret those posts.
I kept reading how casters are all powerful and fighters suck and they are worse than summoned monsters and animal companions, how a wizard could defeat a fighter while naked and unconscious in a field, and I did not know that this happens only at crazy high optmization, with a lot of cheese, and very prepared casters.
So I nerfed casters, buffed martials, and gifted the party barbarian with very powerful items.
I reached a point where the barbarian alone could have easily defeated the rest of the party, which consisted of a cleric, a druid, and a wizard. It didn't help that the barbarian was the only one who understood the rules and was making some attempts at optimizing. At this point I realized something was wrong, and from there I eventually fixed the situation and i reached a more balanced approach.

Maybe the DM described here is going through a siimilar arc, where he heard about codzillas and so he's doing his best to shoot down clerics; if so, once he realizes that he's gone too far, he may relent.

[Biggus]

I kept reading how casters are all powerful and fighters suck and they are worse than summoned monsters and animal companions, how a wizard could defeat a fighter while naked and unconscious in a field [...]
So I nerfed casters, buffed martials, and gifted the party barbarian with very powerful items.


Yeah, I didn't really get it at first either, it took me a while to understand what needed to be done to make the classes play better together, eg that martials need more options rather than more hitting power, and that casters need to have their most broken abilities nerfed or removed rather than being weakened overall. And also, that the classes don't need to all be exactly the same power level to be fun to play, you just have to avoid the more ridiculous extremes and make sure everyone has a chance to shine.


and I did not know that this happens only at crazy high optmization, with a lot of cheese, and very prepared casters.

This is a slight exaggeration, I'm currently DMing for a 9th-level wizard who's only moderately optimised, and she's already very hard to challenge with level-appropriate encounters unless they're specifically designed to counter her strengths. But you're right that the really ludicrous power disparities only appear either with high-op cheese or at very high levels.

[studderingdave]

the DM sounds weak in my opinion. Any DM worth his salt should be able to handle a 3.5 party. I will always stand by that notion, especially now in a crowd of 5e players who seem to like denouncing 3.5 as an uncontrollable edition. If it is the only session in town then I think you should talk to the DM directly and work out a compromise, but you should not be denied your core abilities or spells unless there is a very good reason for it.

[StevenC21]

Why? That doesn't make any sense, as the two things are unrelated. :smallconfused:

What I refer to is the fact that when you play that rarely, the DM should accelerate XP gain for players, to avoid a feeling of character stagnation. People don't like to feel as if they aren't progressing or moving forward, in real life or otherwise. If you play that rarely, its going to feel slow as molasses in regards to character leveling and other methods of tracking progression.

[KillianHawkeye]

What I refer to is the fact that when you play that rarely, the DM should accelerate XP gain for players, to avoid a feeling of character stagnation. People don't like to feel as if they aren't progressing or moving forward, in real life or otherwise. If you play that rarely, its going to feel slow as molasses in regards to character leveling and other methods of tracking progression.

I understood your post, I just said it didn't make any sense. I guess I just disagree and feel like you're over-generalizing. Experience gain generally feels fast enough to me (disregarding real-world time, which I don't see as relevant) without artificially inflating it.

[Quertus]

What I refer to is the fact that when you play that rarely, the DM should accelerate XP gain for players, to avoid a feeling of character stagnation. People don't like to feel as if they aren't progressing or moving forward, in real life or otherwise. If you play that rarely, its going to feel slow as molasses in regards to character leveling and other methods of tracking progression.

Try playing 2e, you ADD-prone whipper-snappers! :smallwink: Back in my day, a party of 6 would have to slog through 1000 goblins just for the dang Wizard to reach level 2.

[Particle_Man]

the DM sounds weak in my opinion. Any DM worth his salt should be able to handle a 3.5 party. I will always stand by that notion, especially now in a crowd of 5e players who seem to like denouncing 3.5 as an uncontrollable edition. If it is the only session in town then I think you should talk to the DM directly and work out a compromise, but you should not be denied your core abilities or spells unless there is a very good reason for it.

Well I guess I won't convince you if you will always stand by that notion, but for the record I have had DMs that were IMHO worth their salt that had trouble running high level 3.5 games.