No love for Lyric Spell?

[Cerefel]

Hey all, I've noticed that while DMM:Persist shenanigans are a common talking point in discussions about metamagic abuse, but how come nobody ever seems to talk about Lyric Spell being able to do the same thing for bards with less build investment? I feel like there are plenty of builds that would greatly benefit from this trick but I've never seen anyone mention this use of the feat.

Is there something I'm missing?

[gimley307]

I think you're misreading the feat. Lyric spell only allows you to cast a spell by using bardic music instead of spell slots. You can't apply metamagics with lyric spell (but you can apply them normally to the spell you cast with lyric spell). Theres not much similarity between this and DMM past the expenditure of alternate resources

EDIT: misread the feat.

[Cerefel]

The restriction you're referring to is from Metamagic Song, which is an entirely different feat

[Saintheart]

RE-EDITED TO PUT BACK MY ORIGINAL TEXT FOR CLARITY:

Probably because on the RAW Lyric Spell doesn't do that.

Read the entry again. I get what you're aiming at, and it's a cute argument: Lyric Spell says it will allow you to cast "any arcane spell you know and can cast spontaneously", which arguably means any spell with all its metamagic attached to it. Problem is, by that argument, the Extra Spell feat would achieve much the same thing, and it's dodgy whether you can even get off the sorcerer list with Extra Spell, let alone add metamagic into it. The mechanical text for Lyric Spell does not indicate that it overrides the general rule that a metamagic'd spell uses up spell slots higher than the actual spell does; DMM, by contrast, does. Its intent was to allow you to cast more spells once your spell slots are burned up for the day, not function as a sort of DMM.

As for why Metamagic Song isn't used more often in a DMM Persist sort of build: would have to look at it, but the main control I can see is that nasty last line: You cannot use the Metamagic Song feat to add metamagic feats that would make the spell's effective level higher than the highest level of spell that you can cast normally.

That would mean pure bards are borked by it, since the bard list only goes up to level 6. Persist Spell requires you burn a slot four levels higher, i.e. as a straight bard you could only persist second level spells, and that only once you have access to sixth level magic, i.e.e. when you hit caster level 17.

Still, this could be interesting for builds which leave bard or manage to continue the arcane progression and preserve bardic music uses.

[gimley307]

The restriction you're referring to is from Metamagic Song, which is an entirely different feat

You're right, but it turns out I dont think you can apply metamagics at all with lyric spell. I edited my comment.

[Cerefel]

Probably because on the RAW Lyric Spell doesn't do that.

Read the entry again. I get what you're aiming at, and it's a cute argument: Lyric Spell says it will allow you to cast "any arcane spell you know and can cast spontaneously", which arguably means any spell with all its metamagic attached to it. Problem is, by that argument, the Extra Spell feat would achieve much the same thing, and it's dodgy whether you can even get off the sorcerer list with Extra Spell, let alone add metamagic into it. The mechanical text for Lyric Spell does not indicate that it overrides the general rule that a metamagic'd spell uses up spell slots higher than the actual spell does; DMM, by contrast, does. Its intent was to allow you to cast more spells once your spell slots are burned up for the day, not function as a sort of DMM.

This is closer to the mark of what I'm trying to get at, but still doesn't quite get it. I'm not trying to avoid the cost of the metamagic, because bards have so many bardic music uses anyway that they can afford to Lyric Spell cast a spell raised to 10th level before they can normally even get 5th-level slots

[Saintheart]

Now I'm totally confused because I edited my earlier post. Anyway, what I meant with Lyric Spell is that I don't think the feat allows you to cast metamagic in that way.

Metamagic uses up a higher-level spell slot. If you don't have the spell slot, you can't cast the metamagic'ed spell - period. That's why DMM is so absurdly good.

EDIT: Aahhh, now I get it. You're saying that you use up your high-level spell slots with metamagic'ed spells ... and use Lyric Spell to cast your normal, default spells at that level. Not bad!

[Cerefel]

So to clarify, my idea is as follows:

Play a bard who is at least 10th level* with Lyric Spell and Persistent Spell
Cast Persisted Haste or whatever, using 10 bardic music uses instead of a 9th-level spell slot


As for the argument that Lyric Spell doesn't allow the use of metamagic, the feat also specifies that it can't be used on spells improved specifically with Silent Spell, heavily implying that other metamagic is fair game


*this level could be lower if the bard also takes the Extra Music feat

[Saintheart]

I don't doubt it can be used on metamagic'ed spells, but I don't think it gets around the need to actually have the higher-level spell slot. That's the crux of the problem. Take your Persisted Haste: third level spell, Persisting it means it takes up a seventh-level spell slot, which a default bard is never going to have available because bards even at level 20 can only cast sixth level spells. I don't think Lyric Spell allows you to get around that restriction, because it's a restriction imposed by the metamagic feat you apply to the spell.

EDIT: But as said, it does have a benefit in that it allows you to still cast those spells which are otherwise shoved out of their slots by reason of metamagic. Let's say you have a first level spell which fires out of a fourth level spell slot due to the metamagic applied to it. The good news is that that fourth level spell slot is still notionally available to you because you can use Bardic Music uses to pull another fourth level spell. At least for a couple of spells, this circumvents the control mechanism of metamagic in that it takes up higher level spell slots, albeit it still doesn't allow you to get around the need for an actual spell slot.

[Cerefel]

Persistent Haste is not a different spell from Haste, and since Haste is a spell you know and can cast spontaneously, there's nothing stopping you from using Lyric Spell to cast Persistent Haste even if it uses a spell slot higher than you would normally have available. If you really don't feel comfortable with that though, Sublime Chord is a class that can give you higher level slots



Take your Persisted Haste: third level spell, Persisting it means it takes up a seventh-level spell slot
In 3.5, Persistent Spell uses a slot 6 levels higher. you're looking at the 3.0 version

[Mike Miller]

I don't doubt it can be used on metamagic'ed spells, but I don't think it gets around the need to actually have the higher-level spell slot. That's the crux of the problem. Take your Persisted Haste: third level spell, Persisting it means it takes up a seventh-level spell slot, which a default bard is never going to have available because bards even at level 20 can only cast sixth level spells. I don't think Lyric Spell allows you to get around that restriction, because it's a restriction imposed by the metamagic feat you apply to the spell.

I agree with your argument. However, you must have looked at the 3.0 version of Persistent Spell when the updated version is +6 spell levels, so it would be a ninth level spell not a seventh level spell. Nitpicking...

[Saintheart]

I think this one is going to be an agree to disagree, but to make a final response:


Persistent Haste is not a different spell from Haste, and since Haste is a spell you know and can cast spontaneously, there's nothing stopping you from using Lyric Spell to cast Persistent Haste even if it uses a spell slot higher than you would normally have available.

In this statement the underlined bit is the only part I differ on: because absent the specific cases of DMM and (partially) Residual Metamagic, metamagic feats force you to blow a higher level spell slot to cast the spell. If you don't have a spell slot high enough to cast the spell out of, then you cannot cast the spell. As said, the argument does put a smile on my face, but I think for it to fly it would need a lot more specific text in it similar to the text that DMM has to explain why you don't need to expend the higher level spell slots t ocast.

[Cerefel]

I think this one is going to be an agree to disagree, but to make a final response:



In this statement the underlined bit is the only part I differ on: because absent the specific cases of DMM and (partially) Residual Metamagic, metamagic feats force you to blow a higher level spell slot to cast the spell. If you don't have a spell slot high enough to cast the spell out of, then you cannot cast the spell. As said, the argument does put a smile on my face, but I think for it to fly it would need a lot more specific text in it similar to the text that DMM has to explain why you don't need to expend the higher level spell slots t ocast.

Ordinarily you need a spell slot to cast a spell, but Lyric Spell is specifically allowing you to ignore that, so the spell slots that you do have aren't relevant

[gimley307]

Persistent Haste is not a different spell from Haste, and since Haste is a spell you know and can cast spontaneously, there's nothing stopping you from using Lyric Spell to cast Persistent Haste even if it uses a spell slot higher than you would normally have available. If you really don't feel comfortable with that though, Sublime Chord is a class that can give you higher level slots



In 3.5, Persistent Spell uses a slot 6 levels higher. you're looking at the 3.0 version

I'm having a hard time following this logic. You're saying if I, as a spontaneous caster, can spontaneously cast 'x' spell, I can apply whatever metamagics I want to it with lyric spell? Metamagic, when used with spontaneous casting, is something done after the spell is cast, not before it.

[Cerefel]

Metamagic, when used with spontaneous casting, is something done after the spell is cast, not before it.

That's just not true; metamagic is applied as the spell is cast, not before or after.

[Saintheart]

I'm having a hard time following this logic. You're saying if I, as a spontaneous caster, can spontaneously cast 'x' spell, I can apply whatever metamagics I want to it with lyric spell? Metamagic, when used with spontaneous casting, is something done after the spell is cast, not before it.

As said, the argument makes me smile because it arguably falls right between the RAW cracks of how metamagic works. And OP is right in that for spontaneous casters, metamagic happens at the time of the spell's casting, take a look at the SRD.

The salient wording that opens this up as a DMG-throw-worthy exploit is two lines in Lyric Spell:

'You can expend daily uses of your bardic music to cast any arcane spell that you know and can cast spontaneously.'
+
'Casting a spell requires one use of your bardic music ability, plus one additional use per level of the spell.'

Metamagic increases the spell level and therefore under normal conditions forces a caster to use a higher level spell slot. What OP is pointing out is that Lyric Spell burns bardic music uses in accordance with the level of the spell. Ergo: even if your Persisted Haste is a ninth (thanks gang!) level spell, all that means for Lyric Spell is that you burn 10 bardic music uses to cast it (9 +1). It doesn't necessarily require that you have a ninth level spell slot to cast it from.

That said, I think there's still some issues on RAW to get round, relating to the words "any arcane spell that you know and can cast spontaneously."

OP originally said that Persistent Haste and Haste are the same spell. On reflection I wouldn't agree with that. The first test of that principle would be: show me the sourcebook in which the spell Persistent Haste appears. I can also point to the fact they're different spells by virtue of the fact Persistent Haste and Haste have, by definition, different durations: Persistent Haste lasts 24 hours by reason of metamagic. We know if only from Greater or Mass versions of spells that if you alter an aspect of how a spell works, whether number of targets, puissance, or duration, it alters the spell.

EDIT: Or really the thing that leaves all of this open are the words "the spell" at the end of the second sentence.

[Cerefel]

I would actually argue that Persistent Haste not appearing in any book means that it isn't a spell distinct from Haste. Rather, it is a version of the Haste spell that lasts longer and takes a higher level slot.

[Saintheart]

I would actually argue that Persistent Haste not appearing in any book means that it isn't a spell distinct from Haste. Rather, it is a version of the Haste spell that lasts longer and takes a higher level slot.

TBH on reflection again I don't think much actually turns on it - the issue really lies in the fact that by virtue of being silent on the subject, it does seem to get around the need for a spell slot on RAW, weird as it is, and the fact the last paragraph of the feat indicates that they contemplated metamagic'ed spells being cast via this method does leave the interpretation open.

EDIT: Although ... do the words "can cast spontaneously" put a crimp on this? If you can't cast the spell spontaneously - which you can't when it's a Persisted Haste because it takes a ninth-level spell slot, which no bard has - then that would seem to put an end to the whole exploit.

Even if as you say they're the same spell, it still leaves the problem that you have to be able to cast the metamagic'ed version of the spell spontaneously -- before you can use bardic music slots to pay for it instead. Persistent Haste takes a ninth level spell slot, by definition. You are incapable of casting it spontaneously if you don't have a ninth level spell slot.

I don't think you can bootstrap-levitate on this one. The ability to cast the final, metamagic'ed spell spontaneously is a precondition to being able to use bardic music usages to pay for it. And you can't cast a Persistent Haste spell spontaneously unless you have a ninth level spell slot. You can't use the fact you could use bardic music usages to pay for the increase in spell levels to qualify to be able to use the feat. "Spell you know" is a reference to the unaltered version which you pick up as the levels go by. Even if you assume that Persistent Haste and Haste are spells you know, there's then the second condition: that you can cast the spell spontaneously. Which you can't in the case of Persistent Haste, because it requires a ninth level spell slot.

This still allows metamagic to be used consistent with the feat, too, because then it's simply a case of "What's the highest level of spells you can cast? That's the limit for how much metamagic you can dump on your low level spells."

[Biggus]

Persistent Haste is not a different spell from Haste, and since Haste is a spell you know and can cast spontaneously, there's nothing stopping you from using Lyric Spell to cast Persistent Haste even if it uses a spell slot higher than you would normally have available. If you really don't feel comfortable with that though, Sublime Chord is a class that can give you higher level slots

This argument all hinges on the interpretation of the words "any arcane spell...that you can cast". Personally as DM I would interpret this to mean that as a Bard can never normally cast spells with a spell slot above 6th level, Lyric spell doesn't allow you to either, but I guess some might let it fly.

Bard+Sublime Chord with Lyric Spell+Persist makes sense though.

[magic9mushroom]

Residual Metamagic

The feat is called Residual Magic. It's a tactical feat which allows two manoeuvres, one of which is called Lingering Metamagic and lets you apply metamagic feats for free if you're spamming a spell.

(The other, called Enduring Potency, allows you to treat wands and scrolls as staves if you cast the same spell with spell slots the previous round. It's of extremely-marginal use, so most people forget it exists.)


As for the thread's topic: saying "you can't do X" does not actually imply you can do Y where Y is similar to X; it might just be redundant. That said, there's precedent for using metamagic on unusually-cast spells (you can do it for spontaneous replacement, and in items), so it's plausible you can use it here. But I'm really sceptical of "you can cast Haste spontaneously -> ??? -> you can cast Persistent Haste spontaneously".

[Cerefel]

Nowhere in the feat does it say you need to be able to cast the same version of the spell you want to cast, just the spell itself. Since Haste isn't a fundamentally different spell when you apply the Persist metamagic, that by RAW allows you to cast persistent haste through the feat

[Mato]

Read the entry again. I get what you're aiming at, and it's a cute argument: Lyric Spell says it will allow you to cast "any arcane spell you know and can cast spontaneously", which arguably means any spell with all its metamagic attached to it.Except a bard does not, for example, learn an extended charm person because no such spell exists or has been printed. What they know is simply a charm person spell. And they can choose to modify the known spell using a metamagic feat allowing them "to cast spells in ways slightly different from the ways in which the spells were originally designed or learned"PHB88.

This logical deduction is also supported in the FAQ.

Can I apply the Innate Spell feat to a spell improved by another metamagic feat?
No. Innate Spell applies only to actual spells, not to spells affected by metamagic feats and the like. Just because you’re capable of applying, say, the Empower Spell feat to a fireball spell, that doesn’t make “empowered fireball” a spell. The spell is still “fireball” and thus Innate Spell applies only to the normal version of that spell.

Choose any spell you can cast. You can now cast this spell at will as a spell-like ability once per round.

[Saintheart]

Nowhere in the feat does it say you need to be able to cast the same version of the spell you want to cast, just the spell itself. Since Haste isn't a fundamentally different spell when you apply the Persist metamagic, that by RAW allows you to cast persistent haste through the feat

Nowhere in any splatbook I've seen does it say that a metamagic'ed spell is a different version of the same spell, either.

Your problem is that if this were the case, there would have been no need for the writers to include the words "and can cast spontaneously" in the precondition. And the presumption is that there aren't any otiose words in the text, that the words are there for a reason. That reason is that the feat is not meant to circumvent the restrictions of metamagic in that you have to have a high level spell slot available.

Your sentence above is covered by the phrase "spell you know". You know Haste. Your problem is that you can't cast it spontaneously in the form you want to, because you don't have ninth level slots. That's the prerequisite for being able to cast the spell using bardic music usages.

Persisted Haste is a fundamentally different spell to Haste, mainly because it has a vastly longer duration. Indeed it's effectively a much higher level spell, because you need a higher level spell slot to cast it. We know from Greater and Mass versions of spells that when you alter even the duration of a spell, the makers think it justifies the creation of a different spell. If you tried to make a magic item of Persisted Haste you'd find the item's price is vastly higher than if you make a magic item of Haste.

[Cerefel]

Nowhere in any splatbook I've seen does it say that a metamagic'ed spell is a different version of the same spell, either.
You're correct, it isn't even a different version of the spell. It is just a spell being affected by the benefit of a feat.



Your problem is that if this were the case, there would have been no need for the writers to include the words "and can cast spontaneously" in the precondition. And the presumption is that there aren't any otiose words in the text, that the words are there for a reason. That reason is that the feat is not meant to circumvent the restrictions of metamagic in that you have to have a high level spell slot available.
The inclusion of that phrase is, I'd argue, more likely meant to exclude prepared casting so a wizard can't get limited spontaneous casting via a bard dip and a feat.


Your sentence above is covered by the phrase "spell you know". You know Haste. Your problem is that you can't cast it spontaneously in the form you want to, because you don't have ninth level slots. That's the prerequisite for being able to cast the spell using bardic music usages.
Once again, Lyric Spell never specifies the need to apply the metamagic normally in order to do so with the feat, only that you can normally cast the spell spontaneously.


Persisted Haste is a fundamentally different spell to Haste, mainly because it has a vastly longer duration. Indeed it's effectively a much higher level spell, because you need a higher level spell slot to cast it. We know from Greater and Mass versions of spells that when you alter even the duration of a spell, the makers think it justifies the creation of a different spell. If you tried to make a magic item of Persisted Haste you'd find the item's price is vastly higher than if you make a magic item of Haste.
The difference is that Mass Cure Light Wounds is a spell that exists and has been printed in a book, while applying Persistent Spell to Haste is an entirely different situation. See Mato's post above.

[Saintheart]

The inclusion of that phrase is, I'd argue, more likely meant to exclude prepared casting so a wizard can't get limited spontaneous casting via a bard dip and a feat.

That's an argument about the rules as intended, not the rules as written, which is kind of ironic since you're arguing RAW. You can't have this both ways. You can't on one hand say that because what you want to do is permissible because of RAW silence and then disregard RAW which impacts on that interpretation.


Once again, Lyric Spell never specifies the need to apply the metamagic normally in order to do so with the feat, only that you can normally cast the spell spontaneously.

And once again, it doesn't specify the need to apply the metamagic normally in order to do so with the feat, because the words "can cast spontaneously" achieves that by definition, by negation.


The difference is that Mass Cure Light Wounds is a spell that exists and has been printed in a book, while applying Persistent Spell to Haste is an entirely different situation. See Mato's post above.

As said, your problem is the words "can cast spontaneously". You can cast Haste with no problems. It's a spell you know. But if you want to apply Persistent Spell to Haste, that requires that you have a ninth level spell slot, by virtue of the Persistent Spell feat. If you don't have the ninth level spell slot, you therefore cannot cast the spell - because the version of the spell you want to cast, Persistent Haste, now has preconditions that you cannot satisfy.

Meto's post above actually supports these conclusions, too. If you're saying Lyric Spell works exactly the same way as Innate Spell does, then necessarily you can't use metamagic on the spells you want to cast via Lyric Spell. Per the FAQ, just because you’re capable of applying, say, the Empower Spell feat to a fireball spell, that doesn’t make “empowered fireball” a spell. The spell is still “fireball” and thus Lyric Spell applies only to the normal version of that spell.

Finally, while we're briefly on the subject of rules as intended, Table 3-2 in Complete Adventurer, p. 105, indicates this to be Lyric Spell's purpose:

Spend bardic music uses to cast extra spells.

I know, I know, text trumps table, RAI, bad editing, blah blah blah, but that seems to be telling us that Lyric Spell's purpose was to give you more spells, not more powerful ones. Sure, bad writing by D&D leaves holes you can drive trucks through and allows you to use feats for things they were not intended for, but there isn't a hole on this one because of how the preconditions for the feat work.

[Chalhubard]

An incidental question regarding Lyric Spell.

In the feat's description, it says that:

You must still use an action to cast the spell (following the normal rules for casting time), but using the Lyric Spell feat counts as part of the spellcasting action.

Does that mean one could skip long casting-times through the usage of Lyric Spell? It states 'an action' and, even though the text follows with "following the normal rules for casting time", spells that take 1 or 10 minutes to be launched specify 'actions' as their casting-time. Is this silly semantics or an adequate interpretation?

[zergling.exe]

An incidental question regarding Lyric Spell.

In the feat's description, it says that:

You must still use an action to cast the spell (following the normal rules for casting time), but using the Lyric Spell feat counts as part of the spellcasting action.

Does that mean one could skip long casting-times through the usage of Lyric Spell? It states 'an action' and, even though the text follows with "following the normal rules for casting time", spells that take 1 or 10 minutes to be launched specify 'actions' as their casting-time. Is this silly semantics or an adequate interpretation?

No. It would mean you can't cast them with Lyric Spell.

[Cerefel]

Once again, the feat doesn't say you need the slots to apply metamagic normally in order to do so with the feat. Compare with Metamagic Song, which explicitly does have such a clause.


The phrase "any spell you can cast spontaneously" makes no statement about being able to cast the spell with your desired metamagic applied, so it isn't a requirement for using the feat.


As for why Lyric Spell is different from Innate Spell in terms of applying metamagic, with Lyric Spell you are in fact still casting a spell rather than activating a spell-like ability. The wording of applying metamagic to a spontaneously cast spell is: "[Sorcerers and bards] can choose when they cast their spells whether to apply metamagic feats to improve them." With Innate Spell this doesn't apply since you aren't actually casting a spell, but with Lyric Spell you are.

[Saintheart]

The phrase "any spell you can cast spontaneously" makes no statement about being able to cast the spell with your desired metamagic applied, so it isn't a requirement for using the feat.

But Persistent Spell does have such a specific requirement in it, namely that it uses a spell slot six levels higher. So again this doesn't help you.

[Remuko]

But Persistent Spell does have such a specific requirement in it, namely that it uses a spell slot six levels higher. So again this doesn't help you.

yes but the metamagic is applied during the casting of the spell when youre already not using spell slots youre using bardic music uses already at this point. so spell slots dont matter, just level and the adjusted level just mean you spend more uses to cast it.