Elan´s happy ending

[Morgana]

I´ve saw in other forums people saying that the illusion was Elan´s happy ending, but I don´t think that fits the prophecy. The Oracle made it seem that only Elan would get a happy ending, but all party members got theirs through the illusion

[hroþila]

It wasn't the prophecy's happy ending because it wasn't the end of the story, which is what Elan asked about. There's also an external argument against that interpretation, in that The Giant said the point of the prophecy was to assure the reader that the story would still have a mostly happy ending even if things got quite dark or bleak while getting there.

Note however that the prophecy doesn't suggest that only Elan will get a happy ending, just that he would personally consider it a happy ending. It's hard to imagine an ending that is only happy for Elan and not for any of the people he cares about.

[martianmister]

Illusion is not a happy ending in anyway.

[woweedd]

It wasn't the prophecy's happy ending because it wasn't the end of the story, which is what Elan asked about. There's also an external argument against that interpretation, in that The Giant said the point of the prophecy was to assure the reader that the story would still have a mostly happy ending even if things got quite dark or bleak while getting there.

Note however that the prophecy doesn't suggest that only Elan will get a happy ending, just that he would personally consider it a happy ending. It's hard to imagine an ending that is only happy for Elan and not for any of the people he cares about.
Granted, i’d argue the prophecy does imply AT LEAST ONE Order member will not get a happy ending, but I get your point.

[Resileaf]

Granted, i’d argue the prophecy does imply AT LEAST ONE Order member will not get a happy ending, but I get your point.

That person is probably the one who has a "Will die before the end of the year" prophecy attached to them.

[Kish]

It wasn't the prophecy's happy ending because it wasn't the end of the story, which is what Elan asked about. There's also an external argument against that interpretation, in that The Giant said the point of the prophecy was to assure the reader that the story would still have a mostly happy ending even if things got quite dark or bleak while getting there.

Note however that the prophecy doesn't suggest that only Elan will get a happy ending, just that he would personally consider it a happy ending. It's hard to imagine an ending that is only happy for Elan and not for any of the people he cares about.
Yes, this. The Oracle didn't say "you will have a happy moment and believe for that moment that the story is over," thus Girard's illusion had nothing to do with it. The Oracle didn't, despite what a number of people seem to have read, say, "Not telling for you, but I will say it'll be awful for the rest of the Order."

:elan: Will this story have a happy ending?
:oracle: Yes--for you, at least.

The Oracle's answer was as positive an answer as he could have given without saying "I am eradicating all drama and tension from the rest of the story."

The Oracle implied that not everyone would get a happy ending--but that's already been fulfilled; Kubota, Therkla, and Thanh, just off the top of my head, got sad endings. Pretty sure Xykon will as well, and while Redcloak's ending may be mixed, I will be very surprised if it's happy. Belkar and Vaarsuvius may also get unhappy endings, but if all the members of the Order get happy endings (somehow; Belkar's still gonna die and stay dead), that's perfectly compatible with what the Oracle said.

The Oracle's answer is also not compatible with Elan being happy when he dies or Elan going to the Chaotic Good afterlife; neither of those would be happy endings to the story, and Elan is least likely of all the characters in the story to have meant a classically sad ending that Obi-Wan Kenobi could argue was somehow happy.

[Cazero]

Granted, i’d argue the prophecy does imply AT LEAST ONE Order member will not get a happy ending, but I get your point.
I'd argue that the Oracle hates the guts of those filthy mammals from the Order and that from his perspective, a happy ending would have them all die horribly, thus the need for specification.

[Aveline]

I'd argue that the Oracle hates the guts of those filthy mammals from the Order and that from his perspective, a happy ending would have them all die horribly, thus the need for specification.

The Oracle isn't racist, he's just curmudgeonly. You're thinking of Gannji. That guy really had a lot of... ah, why be generous?, he's a bigot.

[Resileaf]

The Oracle specifically hates Roy, Durkon and Belkar. I don't think he has any strong feelings toward the others.

[Rrmcklin]

People have this need to try and make it seem like there's some kind of twists to the Oracles prophecies even when there aren't.

We've been shown that when he predicts something seriously (as opposed to doing something just to be a jerk because people are annoying him) the outcome is both true to the letter and the spirit of what was asked of him and his reply.

[understatement]

Elan, Haley, and Roy will make it through. For all of them to be happy, V and Durkon gets past the threshold.

Belkar? I ditto.

[denthor]

The Oracle isn't racist, he's just curmudgeonly. You're thinking of Gannji. That guy really had a lot of... ah, why be generous?, he's a bigot.

That is straight out savage. Made me laugh :belkar::amused:

[Fyraltari]

Elan, Haley, and Roy will make it through. For all of them to be happy, V and Durkon gets past the threshold.

Belkar? I ditto.

You think Belkar surviving is necessary to Elan's happy ending? Why?

[xroads]

I suspect that we can be fairly sure Elan and probably Haley will survive the story. A classic story would have the two lovers survive and thrive, so would probably be a requirement for a happy ending for Elan.

The illusion was probably more of a red herring than anything else. If it was revealed that that was the happy ending, a lot of loyal fans would be very upset. And I don't think Rich would do that to them.

[KorvinStarmast]

I suspect that we can be fairly sure Elan and probably Haley will survive the story. Haley is instrumental to Elan's happy ending.

[Ghosty]

That person is probably the one who has a "Will die before the end of the year" prophecy attached to them.

Probably V too. Maybe Durkon or Roy, but I doubt it. I can't see anything permanently bad happening to Haley, and Elan still having a happy ending.

Who else does Elan care about who's still on this side of the grass? He pitys and detests his father, and I don't think Geoff or Ian's death would be enough to ruin a happy ending for Elan.

I see we already covered the above. Would V dying mean an unhappy ending for Elan? I don't think it would. And related to V dying, I'm curious how Belkar will be connected to it, per Belkar's question to the Oracle.

[xroads]

Probably V too. Maybe Durkon or Roy, but I doubt it. I can't see anything permanently bad happening to Haley, and Elan still having a happy ending.

Who else does Elan care about who's still on this side of the grass? He pitys and detests his father, and I don't think Geoff or Ian's death would be enough to ruin a happy ending for Elan.

If Roy and/or Durkon died heroically, I think Elan would still be fine.

Currently I think V is going to survive and live a life of penance and redemption. And being an elf, maybe even live long enough to forgive himself.

A somber ending for V, but would probably still qualify as a happy ending for Elan.

[Squire Doodad]

Elan's happy ending means that Haley also gets one, and Roy also has a high chance of getting a happy ending. Durkon and V are both on the list but much lower, while Belkar is probably half-irrelevant (it's nice if he lives, but not much of a problem if he dies).

As for the rest of the people...
Julio won't suddenly die, or if he does it will be heroically, and Tarquin may defeated but odds are not killed. The remnants of Azure City presumably will do fine.
Even those are speculative though, and anything more will be progressively worse.

[CriticalFailure]

Elan's really attached to Roy so I think that he would consider him dying to be an unhappy ending. Looking at the shared illusion, it's pretty clear that Belkar dying is considered compatible with a happy ending. Both Durkon and V are alive. Durkon's more prominent but that's likely because Roy considers Durkon his best friend.

Off topic but does anyone else kinda hope Haley and V's friendship gets more scenes at some point? that would be cool

[CJG]

Off topic but does anyone else kinda hope Haley and V's friendship gets more scenes at some point? that would be cool

Yes! I think it would be beneficial for V to talk to someone a bit more..pragmatic than Roy. I understand the distance though, ever since the events during the separation things have been tense.

[Darth Paul]

Probably V too. Maybe Durkon or Roy, but I doubt it. I can't see anything permanently bad happening to Haley, and Elan still having a happy ending.

Who else does Elan care about who's still on this side of the grass? He pitys and detests his father, and I don't think Geoff or Ian's death would be enough to ruin a happy ending for Elan.

I see we already covered the above. Would V dying mean an unhappy ending for Elan? I don't think it would. And related to V dying, I'm curious how Belkar will be connected to it, per Belkar's question to the Oracle.
V's death was one of the several that Belkar asked if he might possibly cause. Specifically, he asked if he would directly or indirectly cause the death of Roy, Miko or Windstriker, too. The Oracle's only reference to V was to say "And as for the elf..." before Belkar stabbed him. I think that was just to get Belkar so wound up that he would stab him and activate the Mark of Justice. The Oracle knew exactly what to say to push him over the edge. (He'd foreseen it, after all.)

I don't think V will die after all. Then again, I could be wrong. It might be an heroic sacrifice.


Elan, Haley, and Roy will make it through. For all of them to be happy, V and Durkon gets past the threshold.

Belkar? I ditto.


You think Belkar surviving is necessary to Elan's happy ending? Why?
I have this feeling that Understatement meant to say, "Belkar? I dunno."

[Ghosty]

V's death was one of the several that Belkar asked if he might possibly cause. Specifically, he asked if he would directly or indirectly cause the death of Roy, Miko or Windstriker, too. The Oracle's only reference to V was to say "And as for the elf..." before Belkar stabbed him. I think that was just to get Belkar so wound up that he would stab him and activate the Mark of Justice. The Oracle knew exactly what to say to push him over the edge. (He'd foreseen it, after all.)

I don't think V will die after all. Then again, I could be wrong. It might be an heroic sacrifice....

I kept interpreting "of any of the following" as 'all of the following.' Probably because the Oracle had a convoluted reason why Belkar was responsible for all of the ones he specifically talked about. Which doesn't though imply that V also gets killed by Belkar, despite being in the list of names Belkar was asking about. The prophecy already came true when he caused any of their deaths, like Roy's.

(Yes, I know we've probably hashed this out ad nauseam already.)

I like your suggestion that the Oracle worded it that way to incite Belkar to kill him.

I too am curious what Haley would say about learning about Familicide, etc...

[Resileaf]

The Oracle did not frame his words to convince Belkar to kill him, seeing as his last words are "I wasn't really buying that myself". That was just him making a half-hearted attempt at preventing his death, because his death was the only one that the prophecy was really refering to. Roy and Miko's deaths were not caused by Belkar.

[Darth Paul]

Well, he knew Belkar was going to stab him to death (his assistants were on standby and appeared almost immediately) and he knew the reason why; arguably, he figured he might as well yank Belkar's chain a little. He knew there was no way to prevent his own death. That's what being the Oracle is all about, after all- foreseeing the future.

[woweedd]

Yeah, Elan would not consider any world where his girlfriend or best friend are dead to be happy, so Roy and Haley's survival is pretty much guaranteed. Durkon, also pretty high odds. V and Belker...Not so much.

I kept interpreting "of any of the following" as 'all of the following.' Probably because the Oracle had a convoluted reason why Belkar was responsible for all of the ones he specifically talked about. Which doesn't though imply that V also gets killed by Belkar, despite being in the list of names Belkar was asking about. The prophecy already came true when he caused any of their deaths, like Roy's.

(Yes, I know we've probably hashed this out ad nauseam already.)

I like your suggestion that the Oracle worded it that way to incite Belkar to kill him.

I too am curious what Haley would say about learning about Familicide, etc...
:oracle: Well, technically, if you define death as a prolonged stay in one of the Outer Planes...The elf will be spending some time there in the near-future, and it was partly Belkar's fault.

[Emmit Svenson]

Elan would be perfectly happy with an ending where he heroically sacrificed himself so that all his friends could live.

That would be a happy ending...for him, at least.

[Rrmcklin]

Elan would be perfectly happy with an ending where he heroically sacrificed himself so that all his friends could live.

That would be a happy ending...for him, at least.

Well, all his friend aren't going to live, so that's not going to happy. But, really, I don't see how Elan as the type who is happy about something like that, that's Durkon. Elan would do such a thing but he's not the person who is happy to do it, and as people have already mentioned, and ending in which Elan is not with Haley is not one that is happy for him.

[Bamsenn]

Well, all his friend aren't going to live, so that's not going to happy. But, really, I don't see how Elan as the type who is happy about something like that, that's Durkon. Elan would do such a thing but he's not the person who is happy to do it, and as people have already mentioned, and ending in which Elan is not with Haley is not one that is happy for him.

He wouldn’t be happy to DO it, but I think it’s fair to say he would be happy with the results. Especially since we known he is especially genre-savy and has a love for putting together a good story. This also works with the oracles phrasing since it would leave several of his friends heartbroken, especially Haley

Do I think this is going to happen? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ But I definitely think it can fit

[skaddix]

I would say a happy ending for Elan includes most of the OOTS living.

It absolutely includes Haley...it highly probably includes Roy...and I would say one of Durkon or V needs to make it.

[hroþila]

Elan would be perfectly happy with an ending where he heroically sacrificed himself so that all his friends could live.

That would be a happy ending...for him, at least.
I disagree. Even if that resulted in every problem being solved and everybody else being allowed to live happy lives, such an ending wouldn't usually be considered a happy ending, it would be bittersweet.

[Takver]

I would say a happy ending for Elan includes most of the OOTS living.

It absolutely includes Haley...it highly probably includes Roy...and I would say one of Durkon or V needs to make it.

I hate to say it, but I don't think a happy ending for Elan has to include any of the non-humans of the Order. Yes, he would be sad to varying degrees for each, but Roy and Haley are the ones who really matter to him.

Elan likes and trusts Durkon, but I don't see a special bond between them. If Haley is Elan's girlfriend and Roy is his big brother, who is Durkon to him? Maybe another way to look at it is that Roy and Haley both got special attention from Tarquin for impinging on Elan's "arc" in different ways, but Durkon didn't. Ultimately to Elan, Durkon is a part of the team, but not more than that.

Most of Elan's one-on-one interaction with V has actually been negative. I'm thinking of how bad things got (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0599.html) when Roy was dead, but even before that there was when Elan wanted to multiclass to Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html). They're almost diametrically opposite types of people.

[skaddix]

Fair enough of the non humans Elan probably gets along best with Belkar in terms of interactions.

Haley and Roy are basically Family to Elan that is true.

[understatement]

Elan wants Roy happy, right? And for Roy to be happy, his best friend Durkon should be able to survive.

Elan wants Haley happy, right? And for Haley to be happy, her best friend (I feel like this was quoted somewhere despite the relative lack of online evidence) V should be able to survive.

[zimmerwald1915]

Elan hasn't given a fig for Vaarsuvius since she disintegrated Kubota and left the fleet.

[understatement]

V is Haley's friend.

[Rrmcklin]

I think a distinction should be made between a happy ending and a perfect ending. Because we already know the latter isn't going to happen; Belkar's (and possibly Varsuuvius's) death precludes that. And I'm aware that for many people those events would make things better but Elan is just not the kind of person who would see their deaths that way, even if he could still go on to live a happy life after this.

That being said, going "Elan dies, but everyone else is okay so he considers that happy" really does seem to mesh with what the character would consider a happy ending, or, really, what I think the message was intended for. Obvious personal opinion, but I don't think that Mr. Burlew would consider an ending in which Elan of all characters is dead a happy one. The entire point was to reassure that things will be all right in the story even when it goes to dark places.

[Darth Paul]

Elan wants Haley happy, right? And for Haley to be happy, her best friend (I feel like this was quoted somewhere despite the relative lack of online evidence) V should be able to survive.

I think it goes without saying the for her to be happy, Elan needs to survive, too. Thus, it's really unlikely that he'll be the one making a heroic sacrifice. That (as someone mentioned) would be a bittersweet ending, not a happy ending.

Also, they need a big pile of money to make love on top of. I guess that's optional, though.

[CriticalFailure]

I think the money is part of Haley's idea of a happy ending. Elan doesn't care how much wealth they have as long as it's narratively satisfying. Which is good news for the readers I guess.

[Darth Paul]

Well, yes, I didn't make it clear enough that I was talking about what Haley needed for a happy ending. But her happiness is also essential to Elan's. And you're right, the money is her thing, not his. Main point, if he's dead (even heroically), she won't be happy.

Elan doesn't need everyone else to get a happy ending for him to have one, but I think at minimum Haley, Roy, probably Durkon and V as well (because they make his two best friends happy). Then again, the quality of a death could count towards group happiness. A meaningful ending could be happy as well for certain characters.

Man, that sounds callous. :smalleek:

[Whispri]

A happy ending in four words: Tasha's Hideous Laughter. Disintegrate.

[Squire Doodad]

Well, yes, I didn't make it clear enough that I was talking about what Haley needed for a happy ending. But her happiness is also essential to Elan's. And you're right, the money is her thing, not his. Main point, if he's dead (even heroically), she won't be happy.

Elan doesn't need everyone else to get a happy ending for him to have one, but I think at minimum Haley, Roy, probably Durkon and V as well (because they make his two best friends happy). Then again, the quality of a death could count towards group happiness. A meaningful ending could be happy as well for certain characters.

Man, that sounds callous. :smalleek:

Basically its

Mandatory:
Elan, Haley
Almost Mandatory:
Roy
Preferable, but not needed:
Durkon, V, Mr. Scruffy, Blackwing
Largely Irrelevant:
Belkar

[Wizard_Lizard]

Elan is almost alwayshappy, so a happy ending for him may be pretty easy to achieve.

[Squire Doodad]

Elan is almost alwayshappy, so a happy ending for him may be pretty easy to achieve.

So the happy ending is Elan becomes immortal and continues to be happy for all of time.

[Wizard_Lizard]

So the happy ending is Elan becomes immortal and continues to be happy for all of time.

Of course!

[martianmister]

I'm a firm believer that nothing else than the world's safety is required for Elan's happy ending. I'd even accept dead Elan and Haley in their afterlife as an Elanesque happy ending.

[Doug Lampert]

I'm a firm believer that nothing else than the world's safety is required for Elan's happy ending. I'd even accept dead Elan and Haley in their afterlife as an Elanesque happy ending.

Elan would of course have to die in a dramatically satisfying way for Elan's death to be a happy ending for Elan.

Since he has decided that people are more important than stories, he would probably be WILLING to die undramatically if it saved the world, but he wouldn't be really happy about it unless it makes a good story. :)

[paladinofshojo]

Maybe the Oracle was being a smartass again and was referring to him hooking up with Haley?

[Wizard_Lizard]

The thing about a happy ending is that... ...well... ...it's an ending.

[drazen]

I´ve saw in other forums people saying that the illusion was Elan´s happy ending, but I don´t think that fits the prophecy. The Oracle made it seem that only Elan would get a happy ending, but all party members got theirs through the illusion

My tongue-in-cheek interpretation of Elan's prophecy is that it looks like Elan already got a "happy ending" on the back of the purple worm in the desert (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0690.html). ;)

Interestingly, all of the other original Oracle prophecies, from when the whole Order visited together (perhaps save Blackwing's), have clearly and explicitly been fulfilled:

Roy's - #899 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0899.html) happened after #447 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0447.html), chronologically.
Vaarsuvius's - #634 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html) - "I... I must succeed." Leaving aside how some of us, myself included, feel about this, Giant explicitly confirmed it in the forums, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Durkon's - #1084 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1084.html) as a vampire, or #1149 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1149.html) and #1150 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1150.html) via Resurrection / Raise Dead spells.
Haley's - #393 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html), and perhaps the events leading up to it, as well.
Belkar's - #567 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html)


This makes the order of prophecy fulfillment HBVRD (or HBVERD, if you count my cheeky interpretation of Elan's) which almost sounds like "Halberd." So I'll just stop here and let everyone speculate on if a halberd might be crucial to the story in the future. :)

[Fyraltari]

Please, how could anyone forget Halberd Guy?

[Lacuna Caster]

People have this need to try and make it seem like there's some kind of twists to the Oracles prophecies even when there aren't.

We've been shown that when he predicts something seriously (as opposed to doing something just to be a jerk because people are annoying him) the outcome is both true to the letter and the spirit of what was asked of him and his reply.
Are you kidding me? Belkar, V, Durkon, and Haley all received answers that were functionally useless and only discernibly 'true to the letter' if you squinted in retrospect. (Roy can be blamed for his own misinformation, but that's it.)


So the happy ending is Elan becomes immortal and continues to be happy for all of time.
If you make Elan sufficiently unhappy about the second law of thermodynamics, presumably that will go away as well, but I suppose explaining it to him would be the work of a lifetime.

[woweedd]

Are you kidding me? Belkar, V, Durkon, and Haley all received answers that were functionally useless and only discernibly 'true to the letter' if you squinted in retrospect. (Roy can be blamed for his own misinformation, but that's it.)


If you make Elan sufficiently unhappy about the second law of thermodynamics, presumably that will go away as well, but I suppose explaining it to him would be the work of a lifetime.
Haley's answer was true, if couched in metaphor. Belkar's answer was entirely correct for the question he asked. V is kinda slippery, but true. And Durkon returned home while he was dead. How were any of those untrue?

[Aveline]

Are you kidding me? Belkar, V, Durkon, and Haley all received answers that were functionally useless and only discernibly 'true to the letter' if you squinted in retrospect. (Roy can be blamed for his own misinformation, but that's it.)

Belkar's was perfectly accurate. When Vaarsuvius accepted the fiends' contract, it was clear to me that the prophecy was fulfilled. Durkon's was also pretty obvious as soon as he was turned into a vampire too, at least to me.

I'll give you that "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth" was pretty vague as far as statements of positive truth go, but Haley was still able to apply the prophecy correctly (bit of a tautology there), so I guess her answer was what it needed to be.

[Sir_Norbert]

I think the distinction that can be made is: the Oracle's answers (that have been resolved) contain correct information but not all the relevant information. He could have told Durkon "You will be turned into a vampire, and you might want to think twice about trusting clerics of death gods", but he didn't. (Of course, Durkon was perfectly satisfied with his answer, since all he really wanted to know was whether he would be coming home at all.)

Doesn't change the fact that they have all, so far, come true.

[Lacuna Caster]

Haley's answer was true, if couched in metaphor. Belkar's answer was entirely correct for the question he asked. V is kinda slippery, but true. And Durkon returned home while he was dead. How were any of those untrue?
I'm not saying they were untrue. I'm saying they were functionally useless, in the sense of 'not providing any meaningful guide to action', which is what his clients presumably paid for.

A response that was true to the spirit of, e.g, V's inquiry would be "by accepting a pact with three demon-lords for a soul-splice with ancient mage-spirits". Which would completely spoil the upcoming plot and possibly leave V thrashing about trying to avoid said outcome, but... well cryptic is cryptic and straight is straight.

[Aveline]

I'm not saying they were untrue. I'm saying they were functionally useless, in the sense of 'not providing any meaningful guide to action', which is what his clients presumably paid for.

A response that was true to the spirit of, e.g, V's inquiry would be "by accepting a pact with three demon-lords for a soul-splice with ancient mage-spirits". Which would completely spoil the upcoming plot and possibly leave V thrashing about trying to avoid said outcome, but... well cryptic is cryptic and straight is straight.

I can't think of a single fiction where a prophecy served any purpose than to confuse those aware of it. Not that no work ever plays a prophecy straight, but it's pretty much the default that prophecies aren't accompanied by an explanation of how they apply.

"Prophecy", in literature, means "prepare to do some rationalization".

[Kish]

His prophecy for Roy is the entire reason the Order went to Girard's Gate before Kraagor's Gate.

That the rest of the Order asked questions at all was extra; they didn't go to the Sunken Valley to learn whether Belkar would one day kill Roy, Vaarsuvius, Miko, Windstriker, or the Oracle.

[woweedd]

I'm not saying they were untrue. I'm saying they were functionally useless, in the sense of 'not providing any meaningful guide to action', which is what his clients presumably paid for.

A response that was true to the spirit of, e.g, V's inquiry would be "by accepting a pact with three demon-lords for a soul-splice with ancient mage-spirits". Which would completely spoil the upcoming plot and possibly leave V thrashing about trying to avoid said outcome, but... well cryptic is cryptic and straight is straight.
I think it's pretty obvious why the Oracle is cryptic: Namely, that he's a jerk, who doesn't like any of the Order, or, indeed, any non-reptiles, much, and has free reign to be a jerk, what with the whole "knowing how any and all future events will take place, should they come to pass" thing. The only reason he tried to persuade Roy into asking a less specific question is because, as I understand, his fear of Xykon outranks his general desire to be an unhelpful jerk for fun.

[Lacuna Caster]

I can't think of a single fiction where a prophecy served any purpose than to confuse those aware of it. Not that no work ever plays a prophecy straight, but it's pretty much the default that prophecies aren't accompanied by an explanation of how they apply.

"Prophecy", in literature, means "prepare to do some rationalization".
Okay, fine. But Rrmcklin was trying to claim that the Oracle's answers were true to both the letter and the spirit of what the client was asking, and I just don't see the latter borne out at all.

[woweedd]

Okay, fine. But Rrmcklin was trying to claim that the Oracle's answers were true to both the letter and the spirit of what the client was asking, and I just don't see the latter borne out at all.
They weren't as elaborate as the person may have prefered, but they were pretty clear overall. Belkar's question was "will I get to kill any of the following" and he got an answer. Durkon, whether you count the vampire or not, did return to this homeland following a death, etc.

[Kish]

Haley got an answer to only the spirit of what she was asking; Nale wasn't a horse and her decision was never whether to try to examine his teeth.

[understatement]

It's to be ambiguous so it's also unclear to the audience, until the right time.

[Rrmcklin]

It's to be ambiguous so it's also unclear to the audience, until the right time.

Basically this. If you make it obvious to the characters exactly what's going to happen and why, you're basically spoiling some of the biggest moments of your story to the audience.

As long as you can look back after what has happened has happened and can go "Oh, yeah, that works" the prophecy has done its job.

Admittedly, I might not remember the exact wording of some of his predications (Haley's for one), but my main point was that people keep trying to argue that there's going to be some kind of twist that basically invalidates what we were actually told and, no, we have no real reason to think that based on what's actually happened with the prophecies.

[Goblin_Priest]

Maybe the Oracle was being a smartass again and was referring to him hooking up with Haley?


The thing about a happy ending is that... ...well... ...it's an ending.

Does Elan plan on going to any massage parlor...? Some of those offer happy endings... :smalltongue:

[KorvinStarmast]

Does Elan plan on going to any massage parlor...? Some of those offer happy endings... :smalltongue: The joke about action on the back of the purple worm already covered this ground. Scroll up a bit. :smallcool:

[Rrmcklin]

Elan asked about the ending of this story, that's pretty unambiguous.

And I'm not sure how much it'll really matter, but I'd also like to point out that a happy ending doesn't mean that everything will remain perfect just that, by the end of the story, things will end in a way that Elan (and by extension the audience) will consider happy for the time.

Similarly, ideas that go "Elan and Haley die, but the world is saved so they consider that happy" are missing the point of why the proclamation was made in the first place. Because I believe that Mr. Burlew is on record of saying that what ultimately matters is the Order of the Stick, not the World. The World only matters in as much as that's where the Order of the Stick and the things and people they care about live.

So I find myself highly doubtful that Mr. Burlew would consider an ending in which they're all dead but the world is saved "happy" for his (and by extension Elan's) purposes.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Does Elan plan on going to any massage parlor...? Some of those offer happy endings... :smalltongue:

what does a massage parlour have to do with it?

[Rrmcklin]

what does a massage parlour have to do with it?

They explained at the very end there. Or are you just not familiar with the term "happy ending" in that context?

[Goblin_Priest]

The joke about action on the back of the purple worm already covered this ground. Scroll up a bit. :smallcool:

I saw it, wasn't satisfied. The colloquial meaning of the expression might vary from place to place, but imo, that doesn't qualify for the terms used. A quick google lookup of the expression does seem to suggest my initial impression that is has a very specific meaning.


Elan asked about the ending of this story, that's pretty unambiguous.

And I'm not sure how much it'll really matter, but I'd also like to point out that a happy ending doesn't mean that everything will remain perfect just that, by the end of the story, things will end in a way that Elan (and by extension the audience) will consider happy for the time.

Similarly, ideas that go "Elan and Haley die, but the world is saved so they consider that happy" are missing the point of why the proclamation was made in the first place. Because I believe that Mr. Burlew is on record of saying that what ultimately matters is the Order of the Stick, not the World. The World only matters in as much as that's where the Order of the Stick and the things and people they care about live.

So I find myself highly doubtful that Mr. Burlew would consider an ending in which they're all dead but the world is saved "happy" for his (and by extension Elan's) purposes.

Well, when Durkon learned he'd return posthumously, he was overjoyed. That was basically "his happy ending". So... to some people, death is not an obstacle.

I highly doubt Elan or Haley will die, though. Elan isn't Durkon, after all, and he seems to enjoy living. I can see him being happy despite everyone else dying, however.


what does a massage parlour have to do with it?


They explained at the very end there. Or are you just not familiar with the term "happy ending" in that context?

Eh, yea. I'm not gonna actually explain it. If you really don't know what it is in the context, at most I'll offer this link: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=massage+happy+ending

[woweedd]

I saw it, wasn't satisfied. The colloquial meaning of the expression might vary from place to place, but imo, that doesn't qualify for the terms used. A quick google lookup of the expression does seem to suggest my initial impression that is has a very specific meaning.



Well, when Durkon learned he'd return posthumously, he was overjoyed. That was basically "his happy ending". So... to some people, death is not an obstacle.

I highly doubt Elan or Haley will die, though. Elan isn't Durkon, after all, and he seems to enjoy living. I can see him being happy despite everyone else dying, however.





Eh, yea. I'm not gonna actually explain it. If you really don't know what it is in the context, at most I'll offer this link: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=massage+happy+ending
What about Elan suggests he’d be happy with everyone else dead? He’s second only to Celia in the “All-Loving Hero” department.

[Goblin_Priest]

What about Elan suggests he’d be happy with everyone else dead? He’s second only to Celia in the “All-Loving Hero” department.

Because everyone dies eventually. If a happy ending can't exist with dead people, a happy ending can't exist at all.

"Ending" is rather undefined, though. How "long" does an ending last? When does it start? When does it end?

If everyone survives, and he lives happily for another 60 years, and then he dies of some agonizing disease. Is that a happy ending? Or not? Because, again, everyone dies eventually, including himself. There's nothing happy about an agonizing death. But if it lasts a week at most, and followed 60 years of exquisite delight? Does it average out as positive?

If Roy or any other dies, of course there'd be mourning. But if they saved the world, well Roy would have gotten to be the hero, save the day, and end up in paradise. His girlfriend is extraplanar... she could go visit him there. Roy'd have saved the world, broken the family curse, and accomplished everything he set out to do, earning himself the best retirement deal possible (paradise). Is that so sad? Elan could quite possibly just come to accept that, and move on, and live happily ever after with Haley.

Because that's just what every normal person does. Almost every living adult has lost a loved one. And almost all of them just end up learning to cope with it, as a natural and inevitable part of life. And they do so without having the certitude that the person is in literal paradise and access to high level magic to communicate or visit said person. If the average person can do it, Elan certainly can as well.

[Sir_Norbert]

Similarly, ideas that go "Elan and Haley die, but the world is saved so they consider that happy" are missing the point of why the proclamation was made in the first place. Because I believe that Mr. Burlew is on record of saying that what ultimately matters is the Order of the Stick, not the World. The World only matters in as much as that's where the Order of the Stick and the things and people they care about live.

Yes, I'm not going to dig the quote up right now, but I do remember him saying something along those lines.

One of Rich's less stellar moments, in my book. The author doesn't get to decide what aspects of the story I as the reader care about.

[Kish]

Elan asked if the story will have a happy ending, not if he would be happy at the story's end. In my opinion, that neither bends to "Elan is happy in the afterlife" nor requires "none of the Order dies." It means a classically happy, as opposed to tragic, ending, which allows for some main characters to die, but not Elan (because it's a happy ending for him, at least).

Haley won't die because she's alive now; less than one book is not enough time to get from "Elan's love interest dies" to a happy ending for him. Roy is very unlikely to die.

The massage parlor joke was at best mildly amusing the first time, and yet someone always drags it back up whenever anyone mentions Elan's prophecied happy ending. At least this time around no one's yet claimed that the whistle or the illusion somehow counts as the end of the story. Crap, I just jinxed myself, didn't I?

[Emanick]

Because everyone dies eventually. If a happy ending can't exist with dead people, a happy ending can't exist at all.

"Ending" is rather undefined, though. How "long" does an ending last? When does it start? When does it end?

If everyone survives, and he lives happily for another 60 years, and then he dies of some agonizing disease. Is that a happy ending? Or not? Because, again, everyone dies eventually, including himself. There's nothing happy about an agonizing death. But if it lasts a week at most, and followed 60 years of exquisite delight? Does it average out as positive?

I think this clip from Doctor Who (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJqE2onQUSk&t=66s) is remarkably relevant here. (Spoilers.)

[woweedd]

Because everyone dies eventually. If a happy ending can't exist with dead people, a happy ending can't exist at all.

"Ending" is rather undefined, though. How "long" does an ending last? When does it start? When does it end?

If everyone survives, and he lives happily for another 60 years, and then he dies of some agonizing disease. Is that a happy ending? Or not? Because, again, everyone dies eventually, including himself. There's nothing happy about an agonizing death. But if it lasts a week at most, and followed 60 years of exquisite delight? Does it average out as positive?

If Roy or any other dies, of course there'd be mourning. But if they saved the world, well Roy would have gotten to be the hero, save the day, and end up in paradise. His girlfriend is extraplanar... she could go visit him there. Roy'd have saved the world, broken the family curse, and accomplished everything he set out to do, earning himself the best retirement deal possible (paradise). Is that so sad? Elan could quite possibly just come to accept that, and move on, and live happily ever after with Haley.

Because that's just what every normal person does. Almost every living adult has lost a loved one. And almost all of them just end up learning to cope with it, as a natural and inevitable part of life. And they do so without having the certitude that the person is in literal paradise and access to high level magic to communicate or visit said person. If the average person can do it, Elan certainly can as well.
It requires a happy ending to THIS STORY. Elan was asking about an ending to the story of The Order, and whether it will be happy, which it will, by his standards. That almost certainly means he, Roy, Haley, and probably Durkon, live and achieve most of what they wanted, within reason. Belkar and V aren't as certain, and i'd argue the phrasing suggests at least one Order member will NOT get a happy ending. Otherwise, there'd be no need to add the clause about "for you, at least".

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Otherwise, there'd be no need to add the clause about "for you, at least".

No, it just means that, e.g., Elan's dad and brother won't get happy endings. Which they have not. And the same will apply to many, many characters not on the Order's side.

Grey Wolf

[zimmerwald1915]

No, it just means that, e.g., Elan's dad and brother won't get happy endings. Which they have not. And the same will apply to many, many characters not on the Order's side.
Isn't that a given? That if Elan is happy the people who don't want him to be happy won't be happy? Under this interpretation, there's no need to add the caveat other than as a petulant dig. And while the Oracle is certainly not above those, he tends to keep them out of the prophecies themselves.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Isn't that a given? That if Elan is happy the people who don't want him to be happy won't be happy? Under this interpretation, there's no need to add the caveat other than as a petulant dig. And while the Oracle is certainly not above those, he tends to keep them out of the prophecies themselves.

I reject your assumption that Elan's dad doesn't want Elan to be happy. That he is completely wrong in his methods is obvious, but I have never doubted that he wanted his children to fulfill their narrative potential and be happy.

In a creepy "you will do as you are told to be happy or else". But happy.

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

Yes, I'm not going to dig the quote up right now, but I do remember him saying something along those lines.Pretty much.

The MacGuffin is not the antagonist. The MacGuffin is the object sought by the antagonist. Narratively speaking, it does not matter what it does—only that the antagonist is willing to kill the protagonist to get it. That is the source of the conflict. It does not matter what is in the rift, it matters who is willing to kill whom to get it, even if they are mistaken about its usefulness. What is in the rift is only important insofar as it may, at some point, change who is willing to kill whom and why. And that IS important, because those details will change the shape of what happens, but not as the source of conflict. The Snarl is not the threat; Xykon is the threat. The Snarl's powers have as much relevance to the quest to get the Snarl as the exact properties of the glowing briefcase have on the plot of Pulp Fiction, or the exact dollar value of the statue in The Maltese Falcon.

Likewise, the setting is not the protagonist. What happens to the world is only important because the protagonists are the sort of people who care about what happens to the world. If Team Evil or the Linear Guild kills the entire Order of the Stick and then takes the Gate only to find that it does not do what they thought it did...how does that help the Order of the Stick? They will still be dead, and the story is about them. The Linear Guild is not a threat because they will do something bad with the Gate; they are a threat because they will kill the Order of the Stick to do it. At the end of Star Wars, one does not care that the Death Star is about to blow up Yavin 4; one cares that the Death Star is about to kill the protagonists, some of whom happen to be on Yavin 4.

If one does not care about the protagonists or antagonists and is not emotionally invested in their struggles—whether those struggles are external or internal, relevant to the MacGuffin plot or not—and all one cares about is the resolution of the MacGuffin chase, then you will almost certainly be bored with a lot of the material I'm producing. And more importantly, I won't care. The Snarl plot is part of the armature upon which I hang the characters' conflicts; it is not the whole of the story. The strip is titled The Order of the Stick, not The Chase for the Snarl or even Saving the World. Ultimately, it seems like you want the story to be about things it is not going to be about, so it's unlikely you are ever going to enjoy it.

[woweedd]

I reject your assumption that Elan's dad doesn't want Elan to be happy. That he is completely wrong in his methods is obvious, but I have never doubted that he wanted his children to fulfill their narrative potential and be happy.

In a creepy "you will do as you are told to be happy or else". But happy.

Grey Wolf
Tarquin loves his kids, in as much as a sociopathic narcissist CAN love anyone or anything other then himself. Which is to say, he loves them, but only if they remain extensions of his own self. If they step too far out of line...

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Tarquin loves his kids, in as much as a sociopathic narcissist CAN love anyone or anything other then himself. Which is to say, he loves them, but only if they remain extensions of his own self. If they step too far out of line...

All of which I agree with. I just reject the idea that Tarquin's didn't want Elan to be happy. In his own twisted way, he thought only his way could make Elan happy, but I do not doubt that a big happy family under his thumb is indeed a primary objective of Tarquin.

Contradictory and thus likely impossible? Almost certainly. But Tarquin can easily believe six impossible things before breakfast, I'm sure.

Grey Wolf

[woweedd]

All of which I agree with. I just reject the idea that Tarquin's didn't want Elan to be happy. In his own twisted way, he thought only his way could make Elan happy, but I do not doubt that a big happy family under his thumb is indeed a primary objective of Tarquin.

Contradictory and thus likely impossible? Almost certainly. But Tarquin can easily believe six impossible things before breakfast, I'm sure.

Grey Wolf

Well, rather, Tarquin wanted TARQUIN to be happy. Since the only way he can love is by viewing people as extensions of himself, he assumes that what HE wants is what THEY want.

[Mightymosy]

Elan asked if the story will have a happy ending, not if he would be happy at the story's end. In my opinion, that neither bends to "Elan is happy in the afterlife" nor requires "none of the Order dies." It means a classically happy, as opposed to tragic, ending, which allows for some main characters to die, but not Elan (because it's a happy ending for him, at least).

Haley won't die because she's alive now; less than one book is not enough time to get from "Elan's love interest dies" to a happy ending for him. Roy is very unlikely to die.

The massage parlor joke was at best mildly amusing the first time, and yet someone always drags it back up whenever anyone mentions Elan's prophecied happy ending. At least this time around no one's yet claimed that the whistle or the illusion somehow counts as the end of the story. Crap, I just jinxed myself, didn't I?

Not jinxed. Mega-ninjaed by the thread's opening poster:


I´ve saw in other forums people saying that the illusion was Elan´s happy ending, but I don´t think that fits the prophecy. The Oracle made it seem that only Elan would get a happy ending, but all party members got theirs through the illusion

[Goblin_Priest]

It requires a happy ending to THIS STORY. Elan was asking about an ending to the story of The Order, and whether it will be happy, which it will, by his standards. That almost certainly means he, Roy, Haley, and probably Durkon, live and achieve most of what they wanted, within reason. Belkar and V aren't as certain, and i'd argue the phrasing suggests at least one Order member will NOT get a happy ending. Otherwise, there'd be no need to add the clause about "for you, at least".


No, it just means that, e.g., Elan's dad and brother won't get happy endings. Which they have not. And the same will apply to many, many characters not on the Order's side.

Grey Wolf

"for you, at least" as a way to exclude the villains seems completely redundant. Of course, there won't be a happy ending for everyone in the universe, that's just absurd, unless you consider "the world is saved" to be a "happy ending" for the entirety of living beings. But, again, some creatures want it destroyed.

If it meant a happy ending to the entire order, then adding "for you, at least" seems utterly pointless.

It think that last bit of "for you, at least", is both very important, and intentionally vague.

[Rrmcklin]

Yes, I'm not going to dig the quote up right now, but I do remember him saying something along those lines.

One of Rich's less stellar moments, in my book. The author doesn't get to decide what aspects of the story I as the reader care about.

Fair enough, but he does get to consider what he cares about, and it's not that hard to see why a writer would want to write something that also satisfies themselves.

The point being, in a different story "all the main characters die, but they succeed in their mission and are satisfied with that" is something that can be done well, but Rich Burlew is not the kind of person who considers such things satisfying (at least not for the kind of tone he wants his story to have).

I'd wager that the four unambiguously good members of the Order will be at least relatively happy at the end of the story. Belkar most certainly won't, which is important, because it goes with the running message of "evil characters can be loads of fun, but don't take that to mean they should be rewarded just for being entertaining" (or however you'd phrase it. Similarly, I'd say V will probably live, but I'm much less sure of them than I am for any of the Capital G good members.



Well, when Durkon learned he'd return posthumously, he was overjoyed. That was basically "his happy ending". So... to some people, death is not an obstacle.

I highly doubt Elan or Haley will die, though. Elan isn't Durkon, after all, and he seems to enjoy living. I can see him being happy despite everyone else dying, however.

I don't see what the point of this is? That some characters are different from one another? That doesn't matter because, as you also admitted, Durkon isn't Elan. And even Durkon had very specific reasons he was happy about that at the time, reasons that don't even apply anymore.

But as for Elan being happy at the end of the story as long as Haley's alive? Well, I'm sure he could still go on to live a happy life but I don't think he'd consider that a happy ending for this story. Which is something I specifically brought up earlier - you shouldn't equate the end of the story with the rest of the character's life, the two things are (very likely) not the same.

[Wizard_Lizard]

They explained at the very end there. Or are you just not familiar with the term "happy ending" in that context?

Probably.

Also Elan did get a happy ending! He got a whistle! Which to him was happy ending.

[Kish]

Probably.

Also Elan did get a happy ending! He got a whistle! Which to him was happy ending.

The thing about a happy ending is that... ...well... ...it's an ending.
. .

[Morgana]

I honestly don't think V should die, it would feel very cynic. Like, the only redemption thry could achieve is death, instead of self forgiveness and improval. There's probably a way to frame it that would work, but after all that happened it just feels kinda like a cop out you know?

[zimmerwald1915]

I honestly don't think V should die, it would feel very cynic. Like, the only redemption thry could achieve is death, instead of self forgiveness and improval. There's probably a way to frame it that would work, but after all that happened it just feels kinda like a cop out you know?
Not really. Viktor Klemper got a very satisfying death in the X-Files.

[Wizard_Lizard]

I honestly don't think V should die, it would feel very cynic. Like, the only redemption thry could achieve is death, instead of self forgiveness and improval. There's probably a way to frame it that would work, but after all that happened it just feels kinda like a cop out you know?

Plus V is my favourite character.

[Darth Paul]

Fair enough, but he does get to consider what he cares about, and it's not that hard to see why a writer would want to write something that also satisfies themselves.

The point being, in a different story "all the main characters die, but they succeed in their mission and are satisfied with that" is something that can be done well, but Rich Burlew is not the kind of person who considers such things satisfying (at least not for the kind of tone he wants his story to have).


To run with the already-given Star Wars example, let's compare the original film (now known as Episode IV) and Rogue One to illustrate this principle.

Star Wars took time to build characters that we cared about, with understandable motivations and goals. Rogue One was a group of underdeveloped characters racing from one set-piece battle to another until their inevitable (we know it's inevitable because we haven't seen them in any other Star Wars films) deaths. Rogue One was by far the less satisfying film, even though it was technically far superior. But at least they found the Maguffin, in their case, the Death Star plans.

[Wizard_Lizard]

To run with the already-given Star Wars example, let's compare the original film (now known as Episode IV) and Rogue One to illustrate this principle.

Star Wars took time to build characters that we cared about, with understandable motivations and goals. Rogue One was a group of underdeveloped characters racing from one set-piece battle to another until their inevitable (we know it's inevitable because we haven't seen them in any other Star Wars films) deaths. Rogue One was by far the less satisfying film, even though it was technically far superior. But at least they found the Maguffin, in their case, the Death Star plans.

There is only so much you can dowith a prequel spin off.

[Squire Doodad]

"for you, at least" as a way to exclude the villains seems completely redundant. Of course, there won't be a happy ending for everyone in the universe, that's just absurd, unless you consider "the world is saved" to be a "happy ending" for the entirety of living beings. But, again, some creatures want it destroyed.

If it meant a happy ending to the entire order, then adding "for you, at least" seems utterly pointless.

It think that last bit of "for you, at least", is both very important, and intentionally vague.

"For you, at least" feels like it was meant to exclude Elan's brother and unbeknownst to him at the time, also Elan's father. Because typically Elan would want to include his family in his happy ending, but aside from his mother and whatever tertiary aunts and uncles there are, some of Elan's family just...can't.
If it refers to the Order, that is probably about Belkar's implied demise.



To run with the already-given Star Wars example, let's compare the original film (now known as Episode IV) and Rogue One to illustrate this principle.

Star Wars took time to build characters that we cared about, with understandable motivations and goals. Rogue One was a group of underdeveloped characters racing from one set-piece battle to another until their inevitable (we know it's inevitable because we haven't seen them in any other Star Wars films) deaths. Rogue One was by far the less satisfying film, even though it was technically far superior. But at least they found the Maguffin, in their case, the Death Star plans.

You know, something struck me as a bit odd in that idea. Sure, we never hear from these people again, nor do we ever see they exist. However, their existence was ambiguous; we didn't know if they lived or died. It could easily have been that they fled from an active warzone at the end of the movie, and barely make it out while the planet and many of the ships get blown up and decimated. But the team makes it out. Then they decide they are sick of the rebellion (and half of them weren't in it in the first place), send the rebellion the final message and plans and whatnot, then go camp out on Dagobah or something for the rest of their days.

It might not have been as satisfying, but the idea that the director had that they "had" to die at the end seemed like a bit much.

[Goblin_Priest]

To run with the already-given Star Wars example, let's compare the original film (now known as Episode IV) and Rogue One to illustrate this principle.

Star Wars took time to build characters that we cared about, with understandable motivations and goals. Rogue One was a group of underdeveloped characters racing from one set-piece battle to another until their inevitable (we know it's inevitable because we haven't seen them in any other Star Wars films) deaths. Rogue One was by far the less satisfying film, even though it was technically far superior. But at least they found the Maguffin, in their case, the Death Star plans.

Whaaaaaaaaaaaat!?

Rogue One is among my favorite Star Wars movies. Character death can be a good thing, it makes for a more heroic sacrifice, and is refreshing over the default "and all the good guys lived happily ever after" ending.

If you want underdeveloped characters dying left and right, look at The Last Jedi.

Now THAT was a pile of garbage.

As for "inevitable death because we don't see them again in other movies", I guess you hate all prequels, because by default you assume every new character is going to die, and that somehow makes it less interesting?

[Mightymosy]

Whaaaaaaaaaaaat!?

Rogue One is among my favorite Star Wars movies. Character death can be a good thing, it makes for a more heroic sacrifice, and is refreshing over the default "and all the good guys lived happily ever after" ending.

If you want underdeveloped characters dying left and right, look at The Last Jedi.

Now THAT was a pile of garbage.

As for "inevitable death because we don't see them again in other movies", I guess you hate all prequels, because by default you assume every new character is going to die, and that somehow makes it less interesting?

Agree on R1 and TLJ.

R1 probably IS my 2nd favourite, after RotJ =)

[Rrmcklin]

Whaaaaaaaaaaaat!?

Rogue One is among my favorite Star Wars movies. Character death can be a good thing, it makes for a more heroic sacrifice, and is refreshing over the default "and all the good guys lived happily ever after" ending.

If you want underdeveloped characters dying left and right, look at The Last Jedi.

Now THAT was a pile of garbage.

As for "inevitable death because we don't see them again in other movies", I guess you hate all prequels, because by default you assume every new character is going to die, and that somehow makes it less interesting?

"Can be a good thing" and "Is a good thing" are not the same thing. I'm actually much more critical of "a character died, so that automatically makes things better" attitude that, to my eye, is much more prevalent now. I can't speak for either movie because I haven't seen them (or Star Wars in general) but Darth Paul's point was perfectly reasonable.

As for your last point, you can totally see something is coming, but the execution can be done so well it still hits you emotionally. Evidently, Rogue One was not the case for them.

[Mightymosy]

"Can be a good thing" and "Is a good thing" are not the same thing. I'm actually much more critical of "a character died, so that automatically makes things better" attitude that, to my eye, is much more prevalent now. I can't speak for either movie because I haven't seen them (or Star Wars in general) but Darth Paul's point was perfectly reasonable.

As for your last point, you can totally no something is coming, but the execution can be done so well it still hits you emotionally. Evidently, Rogue One was not the case for them.

Right! Everyone and their dog keeps telling me how Game of Thrones is awesome because so many charactery die, and I'm always like "Whoa?"......as if that's a good thing.......

I mean I get people got bored of "plot armor" eventually (looking at you, James Bond), so it WAS refreshing watching a show now and then that did mess with main character protection.

But nowadays it seems like some people consider high character death rate as a quality indicator of good storytelling.......

Eh, to each their own. I am rooting for the good guys, I don't want people dying.

[Fyraltari]

A Song of Ice and Fire does not have a high death rate. It just has a lot of characters (so a lot of deaths) and killed characters the readers assumed had plot armor* but the actual death/character ratio is about average.


*And even that has been toned down later on.

[Mightymosy]

A Song of Ice and Fire does not have a high death rate. It just has a lot of characters (so a lot of deaths) and killed characters the readers assumed had plot armor* but the actual death/character ratio is about average.


*And even that has been toned down later on.

Good to know.
Anyway, my gf ended up trying it out after being bothered enough by her friends (silly her) and found it excruciatingly (spelling?) violent and regretted watching it.

I had to try hard to refrain from saying "told you so"....oh, maybe I did, don't remember. =)

[Goblin_Priest]

"Can be a good thing" and "Is a good thing" are not the same thing. I'm actually much more critical of "a character died, so that automatically makes things better" attitude that, to my eye, is much more prevalent now. I can't speak for either movie because I haven't seen them (or Star Wars in general) but Darth Paul's point was perfectly reasonable.

As for your last point, you can totally see something is coming, but the execution can be done so well it still hits you emotionally. Evidently, Rogue One was not the case for them.

To me, Rogue One delivered a fresh story despite being based upon a more or less known plot, as opposed to The Force Awakens that presented something completely "new" that turned out to be stale leftovers that were hiding in the corner of the fridge since you bought that fridge 10 years ago.


Right! Everyone and their dog keeps telling me how Game of Thrones is awesome because so many charactery die, and I'm always like "Whoa?"......as if that's a good thing.......

I mean I get people got bored of "plot armor" eventually (looking at you, James Bond), so it WAS refreshing watching a show now and then that did mess with main character protection.

But nowadays it seems like some people consider high character death rate as a quality indicator of good storytelling.......

Eh, to each their own. I am rooting for the good guys, I don't want people dying.

I don't care to root for the good guys. I want to be entertained. If the story's based on violent adventure, then I can always suspend disbelief, but it does add much verisimilitude if the characters aren't all blatantly protected by plot armor. And that doesn't necessarily mean death.

In Rogue One, the crew knew they were pretty much signing up for a suicide mission. But the stakes were so high, that they accepted to die for the cause. To have them all survive would have considerably cheapened the story.

When plot armor becomes blatant, I feel cheated. It's easy to use plot armor, it takes no skill, it's cowardly. It's like if I play D&D with friends and I know the GM is fudging all the die, why bother, the GM's just gonna change everything to his whim. Stories are the same. When plot armor becomes blatant, it no longer feels organic, legitimate, believable. Why get emotionally attached to a character or his story, when it becomes clear that the author will just summon cheap tricks to make him prevail in the end?

You don't need to be a good author to kill a character. But to kill characters and keep people interested regardless? That does require some skill. It also somewhat signals the viewer that he's going to refrain from cheap tricks for plot armor. I haven't watched GoT though.

[Squire Doodad]

I just feel like at least one or two of the R1 crew should have gotten out. My issue is that they all died, as if they had to die. Not because terrible things happened. But because it was their fate to die in that battle. Wouldn't one or two of them defying their fate in the battle and escape make for a better story, even if they are never seen again? Couldn't one ship go down, rescue non-combatants or something, and pick what's left of the near-dead crew on the way? It might not make much sense in a planet-wide fight, but its better than exaggerating their demise.

[Goblin_Priest]

I just feel like at least one or two of the R1 crew should have gotten out. My issue is that they all died, as if they had to die. Not because terrible things happened. But because it was their fate to die in that battle. Wouldn't one or two of them defying their fate in the battle and escape make for a better story, even if they are never seen again? Couldn't one ship go down, rescue non-combatants or something, and pick what's left of the near-dead crew on the way? It might not make much sense in a planet-wide fight, but its better than exaggerating their demise.

Well, who, specifically? It's been a while since I saw it, but didn't the planet get lazor'd? Not planet-wide destruction, but big enough to encompass all those fighting.

I don't really see what benefit making some of them survive would have given. It would have also skewed their contributions and risk. Given the level of risk in that mission, anyone surviving would have basically needed to hold out and not fully commit to the mission, which in turn could have led to its failure. Sure, maybe someone could have chickened out at some earlier point, and possibly been replaced by another, but I fail to see how that would make for a better story in any way.

I get that some people don't like character death. Whether it's in movies, or in games. But that's not a quality thing, it's just looking for something specific, such as an uplifting story, which these stories simply don't cater to. Tragedies are narrative classics, and a good chunk of stories that have survived centuries, if not millennia, don't have very good endings at all. If you didn't like that they all died in R1, you must have hated Romeo & Juliet. The kicker in that one, iirc, is that none of them even needed to die to begin with. If Romeo hadn't been so rash they'd possibly have their ever after.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Well, who, specifically? It's been a while since I saw it, but didn't the planet get lazor'd? Not planet-wide destruction, but big enough to encompass all those fighting.

I don't really see what benefit making some of them survive would have given. It would have also skewed their contributions and risk. Given the level of risk in that mission, anyone surviving would have basically needed to hold out and not fully commit to the mission, which in turn could have led to its failure. Sure, maybe someone could have chickened out at some earlier point, and possibly been replaced by another, but I fail to see how that would make for a better story in any way.

I get that some people don't like character death. Whether it's in movies, or in games. But that's not a quality thing, it's just looking for something specific, such as an uplifting story, which these stories simply don't cater to. Tragedies are narrative classics, and a good chunk of stories that have survived centuries, if not millennia, don't have very good endings at all. If you didn't like that they all died in R1, you must have hated Romeo & Juliet. The kicker in that one, iirc, is that none of them even needed to die to begin with. If Romeo hadn't been so rash they'd possibly have their ever after.

ah. Romeo and Juliet... such a tragedy. But if it was avoided the story would be ruined...

[Goblin_Priest]

ah. Romeo and Juliet... such a tragedy. But if it was avoided the story would be ruined...

Indeed, and though I didn't really like R&J (see! character death doesn't grant instant love! ;) ), any other ending would have been unfit of the story. Reckless passionate youth and all.

They died as they lived, as it was meant to be.

[zimmerwald1915]

as it was meant to be.
They were star-crossed, after all.

[Wizard_Lizard]

They were star-crossed, after all.

their star wars crossed

sorry


I beg forgiveness

[Goblin_Priest]

their star wars crossed

sorry


I beg forgiveness

Like Luke and Leia.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Like Luke and Leia.

ummmmm………
I may have some bad news…

[Goblin_Priest]

ummmmm………
I may have some bad news…

I only watched A New Hope. They totally get married and have a bunch of kids and live happily ever after, right?

[Takver]

Le Guin quote:


“Well, we come here to the Fastnesses mostly to learn what questions not to ask."

"But you're the Answerers!"

"You don't see yet, Genry, why we perfected and practice Foretelling?"

"No––"

"To exhibit the perfect uselessness of knowing the answer to the wrong question.”

In The Left Hand of Darkness, Genly Ai asks if he will achieve his mission, the work he has been sent to do. The answer he receives is both unambiguous and correct, but by the time it comes about, it doesn't mean the same thing to him as he had believed it would.

I love oracles in stories. They can give you that feeling of satisfaction when the prophecies are fulfilled and finally they make sense. But they also show what happens when human fallibility meets a piece of divine knowledge.

Vaarsuvius's answer was vague, but the bigger problem was that she wanted something for herself that was wrong. She didn't know enough to ask if she should be trying to achieve ultimate power in the first place.

Elan's answer isn't perfectly useless - I think we can assume he and Haley and Roy will be alive and well by the end of the story - but it certainly doesn't tell us everything. Didn't tell us Durkon would die. Or Roy, for a while. Or Therkla, or Nale. Didn't tell us what an evil person Tarquin would turn out to be. Elan's already seen a huge shift in what a happy ending means for him, when he realized that his family will never be what he hoped for it to be.

[Goblin_Priest]

Le Guin quote:



In The Left Hand of Darkness, Genly Ai asks if he will achieve his mission, the work he has been sent to do. The answer he receives is both unambiguous and correct, but by the time it comes about, it doesn't mean the same thing to him as he had believed it would.

I love oracles in stories. They can give you that feeling of satisfaction when the prophecies are fulfilled and finally they make sense. But they also show what happens when human fallibility meets a piece of divine knowledge.

Vaarsuvius's answer was vague, but the bigger problem was that she wanted something for herself that was wrong. She didn't know enough to ask if she should be trying to achieve ultimate power in the first place.

Elan's answer isn't perfectly useless - I think we can assume he and Haley and Roy will be alive and well by the end of the story - but it certainly doesn't tell us everything. Didn't tell us Durkon would die. Or Roy, for a while. Or Therkla, or Nale. Didn't tell us what an evil person Tarquin would turn out to be. Elan's already seen a huge shift in what a happy ending means for him, when he realized that his family will never be what he hoped for it to be.

So what you're sayin' is... Elan already got his happy ending in the pyramid?

:smallbiggrin:

[Wizard_Lizard]

I only watched A New Hope. They totally get married and have a bunch of kids and live happily ever after, right?

Ummm...
not exactly....

[Kish]

I only watched A New Hope. They totally get married and have a bunch of kids and live happily ever after, right?
If you only watched Star Wars, why are you calling it "A New Hope"?

[zimmerwald1915]

If you only watched Star Wars, why are you calling it "A New Hope"?
Some of us were born in the Nineties and watched the Special Editions on home video first, you know :smallannoyed:

[Resileaf]

Some of us were born in the Nineties and watched the Special Editions on home video first, you know :smallannoyed:

Nonsense. Everyone was born when Star Wars was first released.

[Lacuna Caster]

Some of us were born in the Nineties and watched the Special Editions on home video first, you know :smallannoyed:
Gods. People were born in the 90s? I just never get over that.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Nonsense. Everyone was born when Star Wars was first released.

What, as a consequence of it?

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

Nonsense. Everyone was born when Star Wars was first released.What, as a consequence of it?If only Darth Plagueis had known!

[Fyraltari]

What, as a consequence of it?

Grey Wolf

Yes. The universe beginned in 1977, everything before (memory included) is but illusions created by George Lucas.

[Resileaf]

Yes. The universe beginned in 1977, everything before (memory included) is but illusions created by George Lucas.

See, the original Star Wars never ended. We're still in it right now. We're just doing stuff and George Lucas is filming it.

[Crusher]

A Song of Ice and Fire does not have a high death rate. It just has a lot of characters (so a lot of deaths) and killed characters the readers assumed had plot armor* but the actual death/character ratio is about average.


*And even that has been toned down later on.

Indeed. There are a metric-f**kton of characters engaged in a wide range of really dangerous things (like going to war with each other). For the kind of "gritty realist" genre it occupies, I agree that its death rate among both major and minor characters is roughly average-ish overall and has probably been below average for the last few seasons (and books).

IMO, it really comes down to Ned. When everything starts, its gritty but not unduly so, and Martin seems to be doing a pretty traditional job of setting up Ned to be the central hero in an ensemble story. And then, with relatively little warning, he kills Ned in remarkably cold-blooded fashion. Everyone was like OMFG! This story is NUTS!

And everyone has viewed the story that way ever since, even though it really hasn't deserved it. Periodically it revisits those rarefied airs (the Red Wedding!), but those times happened less often than people seem to think. And there was a long stretch where it didn't really deserve it at all.

Ah, Ned. Seldom has a role been so well cast.

[zimmerwald1915]

Red Wedding
And now for something completely different: am I the only one who can't help but look at this phrase and think first of the Berlin neighborhood?

[Wizard_Lizard]

Yes. The universe beginned in 1977, everything before (memory included) is but illusions created by George Lucas.

HE'S IN LEAGUE WITH THE TREES!
AND THE LIZARDS!
AND THE TRIANGLES!
AND THE DOORS!*

*seriously everything is a conspiracy

[Goblin_Priest]

If you only watched Star Wars, why are you calling it "A New Hope"?

Because I'm full of baloney. ;)

[Wizard_Lizard]

Because I'm full of baloney. ;)

mmmm......
baloney......

[Darth Paul]

Whaaaaaaaaaaaat!?

Rogue One is among my favorite Star Wars movies. Character death can be a good thing, it makes for a more heroic sacrifice, and is refreshing over the default "and all the good guys lived happily ever after" ending.

If you want underdeveloped characters dying left and right, look at The Last Jedi.

Now THAT was a pile of garbage.

As for "inevitable death because we don't see them again in other movies", I guess you hate all prequels, because by default you assume every new character is going to die, and that somehow makes it less interesting?

You must have watched a very different The Last Jedi from the one I did. In the one I saw, a character who we've known since the very first Star Wars film sacrificed himself to save the Rebellion

I don't mind character deaths that mean something. But I have to know and care about the character at least enough to care whether they live or die.

And a prequel can be done well or poorly. I for one enjoyed Revenge of the Sith (making me probably unique among the nominally tasteful folk here); not for the love story part which was horribly acted, but because Ian McDiarmid was so delicious to watch in his machinations, and it was fulfilling to see the backstory play out, watching Obi-Wan and Anakin go from comrades in arms to deadly enemies. Plus, the lightsaber duels were pure fanservice for me. And watching Order 66 go down was gut-wrenching.

If R1 had been less unremittingly dark and gritty, I might have cared a little more. As it was, the only characters I liked much were Chirrut (because he was, in fact, the token idealist) and the snarky droid whose name I can't even remember (come on, voice of Alan Tudyk, you can't not like him). In other words, the comic relief. I realize fully that it was meant to be a dark and gritty "Dirty Dozen meets Star Wars" episode, but even the Dozen had some humor.

Solo is another example. Although it's grown on me slightly now that I can watch it at home and go get a coffee or something during the parts that bore me, it seemed like a determined attempt to cram every backstory reference possible into the movie. Here's the Kessel run, here's how he met Chewie, here's how he won the Falcon, here's the "fair and square" line. I liked it better when things weren't spelled out completely. (And I don't care what they say, you can't do the Kessel run in less than 12 parsecs any more than you can run a mile in under 100 yards. I consider the whole movie apocryphal, especially that guy in the hologram.)

[Wizard_Lizard]

And a prequel can be done well or poorly. I for one enjoyed Revenge of the Sith (making me probably unique among the nominally tasteful folk here); not for the love story part which was horribly acted, but because Ian McDiarmid was so delicious to watch in his machinations, and it was fulfilling to see the backstory play out, watching Obi-Wan and Anakin go from comrades in arms to deadly enemies. Plus, the lightsaber duels were pure fanservice for me. And watching Order 66 go down was gut-wrenching.



I didn't like revenge of the sith at all. But hey, different people with different opinions.

[Goblin_Priest]

You must have watched a very different The Last Jedi from the one I did. In the one I saw, a character who we've known since the very first Star Wars film sacrificed himself to save the Rebellion

(spoiler tag, really? I saw TLJ ages ago, and by then the movie had already been out for ages)

Uh huh, and how much screen time did Luke get in the sequels? 1 minute in TFA. 21 in TLJ, I think, which is sizable in itself (only Rey gets more), but lots of that is just garbage scenes (milking the aliens, best one), and that's also largely just because the rest of the movie is a scattered mess of pointless side arcs, such as the utterly useless bombing run, the utterly useless code breaker quest, the utterly useless anti-ram charge, etc.

Luke's death was terrible, too. "He's not there... GOTCHA, he's kinda there! But he died... GOTCHA, he didn't really die! But... GOTCHA, he did really die in the end anyways!"

Why did he even die, anyways? Did he just Padmé'd himself? If his projection funk got him killed, why'd he get all that time after the lethal damage before actually finally dying?

I /much/ preferred the deaths in Rogue One, or Qui Gon's death, or Han Solo's death. Luke's death was vomit-inducing. As for Holdo's death, it'd be cause for cheer if it wasn't utterly ruined by the implications of turning hyperspace drives into weapons. I guess kamikazes are only alright when you first sent all of your underlings to pointless deaths and when it somehow is supposed to make you look like a brave and caring leader. After all, the bombers all sent to their deaths in the beginning of the movie had hyperspace drives, too. A pity they had to be sent to die for no gain whatsoever, when Holdo could have just strapped herself up in one of these and ram her way to glory before everyone under her got slaughtered.

[Wizard_Lizard]

(spoiler tag, really? I saw TLJ ages ago, and by then the movie had already been out for ages)

Uh huh, and how much screen time did Luke get in the sequels? 1 minute in TFA. 21 in TLJ, I think, which is sizable in itself (only Rey gets more), but lots of that is just garbage scenes (milking the aliens, best one), and that's also largely just because the rest of the movie is a scattered mess of pointless side arcs, such as the utterly useless bombing run, the utterly useless code breaker quest, the utterly useless anti-ram charge, etc.

Luke's death was terrible, too. "He's not there... GOTCHA, he's kinda there! But he died... GOTCHA, he didn't really die! But... GOTCHA, he did really die in the end anyways!"

Why did he even die, anyways? Did he just Padmé'd himself? If his projection funk got him killed, why'd he get all that time after the lethal damage before actually finally dying?

I /much/ preferred the deaths in Rogue One, or Qui Gon's death, or Han Solo's death. Luke's death was vomit-inducing. As for Holdo's death, it'd be cause for cheer if it wasn't utterly ruined by the implications of turning hyperspace drives into weapons. I guess kamikazes are only alright when you first sent all of your underlings to pointless deaths and when it somehow is supposed to make you look like a brave and caring leader. After all, the bombers all sent to their deaths in the beginning of the movie had hyperspace drives, too. A pity they had to be sent to die for no gain whatsoever, when Holdo could have just strapped herself up in one of these and ram her way to glory before everyone under her got slaughtered.

And couldn't she have just turned on autopilot.

[snowblizz]

ROFL.

Nowadays I amuse myself guessing how threads start on topic page 1 but are a Star Wars thread on page 4.

It must have seemed natural for everyone involved. But if one looks at page1 and decies to see where discussion is at page4, it's just wtf?

[Wizard_Lizard]

ROFL.

Nowadays I amuse myself guessing how threads start on topic page 1 but are a Star Wars thread on page 4.

It must have seemed natural for everyone involved. But if one looks at page1 and decies to see where discussion is at page4, it's just wtf?

Star Wars or Miko are the two inevitable topics of almost all tgreads I have partaken in.

[martianmister]

I really like Solo, it's like the reverse version of Guardians of the Galaxy, where everyone is, other than the big guy, ended up broken or dead.

[Darth Paul]

(spoiler tag, really? I saw TLJ ages ago, and by then the movie had already been out for ages)



Spoiler tag as a courtesy to people who may not have seen it but may be planning to some day. But, since you've just discussed the entire plot, that made it kind of pointless.

The amount of screen time is irrelevant. Ricardo Montalban nearly turned down appearing in The Wrath of Khan because he appeared in only 15 or 20 minutes on screen; until his agent pointed out, "Yes, but the rest of the film, all the other characters are talking about you!!" Luke is one of the main characters in an ensemble piece; any more time dilutes the potency of his final appearance. (It was set up earlier, by the way, that nobody can do that kind of projection without the effort killing them. The fact that he held it for so long makes him kind of the most powerful Jedi in existence... not only by default.)

TLJ is a film about loss and sacrifice. Pointing out all the ways the heroes could have done things differently and escaped their fate or even won, is beside the dramatic point. And it's Monday morning quarterbacking. "She could have set the autopilot"; is there an autopilot? If there is, during the delay in running for the escape pod, is there a chance the ship get destroyed? Is it more important to her to make certain that she rams the First Order's capital ship and saves the rest of her side, even at the cost of her life? That's what heroic sacrifice is about.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Spoiler tag as a courtesy to people who may not have seen it but may be planning to some day. But, since you've just discussed the entire plot, that made it kind of pointless.

The amount of screen time is irrelevant. Ricardo Montalban nearly turned down appearing in The Wrath of Khan because he appeared in only 15 or 20 minutes on screen; until his agent pointed out, "Yes, but the rest of the film, all the other characters are talking about you!!" Luke is one of the main characters in an ensemble piece; any more time dilutes the potency of his final appearance. (It was set up earlier, by the way, that nobody can do that kind of projection without the effort killing them. The fact that he held it for so long makes him kind of the most powerful Jedi in existence... not only by default.)

TLJ is a film about loss and sacrifice. Pointing out all the ways the heroes could have done things differently and escaped their fate or even won, is beside the dramatic point. And it's Monday morning quarterbacking. "She could have set the autopilot"; is there an autopilot? If there is, during the delay in running for the escape pod, is there a chance the ship get destroyed? Is it more important to her to make certain that she rams the First Order's capital ship and saves the rest of her side, even at the cost of her life? That's what heroic sacrifice is about.

I only mentioned autopilot for layghs

[zimmerwald1915]

That's what heroic sacrifice is about.
Isn't heroic sacrifice called out as stupid and pointless ten minutes later?

[Kish]

Isn't heroic sacrifice called out as stupid and pointless ten minutes later?
This has been a demonstration of why passive voice should generally be avoided. (Irony.)

[D.One]

This has been a demonstration of why passive voice should generally be avoided. (Irony.)

And yet, it is actively chosen and used.

[Darth Paul]

Isn't heroic sacrifice called out as stupid and pointless ten minutes later?

Different scene.

[Wizard_Lizard]

different scene.

two heroic sacrifices!?!?!

[martianmister]

two heroic sacrifices!?!?!

By my estimation, more than two.

[Wizard_Lizard]

By my estimation, more than two.

surely any more than three would lessen the impact?

[Squire Doodad]

surely any more than three would lessen the impact?

Not if they all get dropped from space and become meteors.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Not if they all get dropped from space and become meteors.

true.... or they were travelling at lightspeed...

[Squire Doodad]

true.... or they were travelling at lightspeed...

Maybe Quickened Bugsby's Cataclysmic Toss?

[Wizard_Lizard]

Maybe Quickened Bugsby's Cataclysmic Toss?

hmm.. I haven't hear oftht spell…

[KorvinStarmast]

hmm.. I haven't hear oftht spell… Spoof on all of V's cat-hand spells, as I read it. :smallwink:

[martianmister]

surely any more than three would lessen the impact?

That depends on the situation, I think.

[snowblizz]

Spoof on all of V's cat-hand spells, as I read it. :smallwink:

Well Bugsby's Improbably Handy Hands spells in general. There's an Bugby's Expressive Digit e.g. so they aren't all cat-handling spells.

(the larger joke, if I may be so bold, is that there's a Bugsby's Something or Other for almost every occasion where a wizard could use a hand, at least in OOTS)

[Ruck]

HE'S IN LEAGUE WITH THE TREES!
AND THE LIZARDS!
AND THE TRIANGLES!
AND THE DOORS!*

*seriously everything is a conspiracy

That's not what I expected the lesson of Oliver Stone's The Doors to be, but in hindsight it probably should have been.

[Squire Doodad]

That's not what I expected the lesson of Oliver Stone's The Doors to be, but in hindsight it probably should have been.

After The Birds, I always carry around a small case of bird repellent with me whenever I go to the beach.


Well Bugsby's Improbably Handy Hands spells in general. There's an Bugby's Expressive Digit e.g. so they aren't all cat-handling spells.

(the larger joke, if I may be so bold, is that there's a Bugsby's Something or Other for almost every occasion where a wizard could use a hand, at least in OOTS)

"Bugsby's Cataclysmic Toss" would basically amount to making things go fall down very fast. I would define it as "a toss with sufficient force and speed to allow an object to be thrown from sea level to the mid-Troposphere (approximately 15 km up without any detrimental conditions or boosts)" In theory, it could even be used as a "makeshift meteor swarm" if you have a Mass version (grab a pile of rocks, throw them at your target; with D&D physics speed will make them into mini-comets). If combined with Feather Fall and a couple abjurations (protection from fire, protection from sharp pointy spikes that happen to appear, protection from annoyed DM), could be used as a way to circumvent a "no-Teleport" scenario.