Class, Concept and Optimization

[Treantmonk]

I've been thinking a lot about this topic lately. How do players come up with their concept? Does it include a class, or does that come later?

For me I think I usually have a mental image or I see a picture that I think is cool, then the concept starts to fill in around it. I use reskinning with abandon to make the concept as optimal as I can, because usually being effective is part of what I'm picturing.

I shared my views in my latest video: (https://youtu.be/1okK0Gbzx7U)

[Man_Over_Game]

I've been thinking a lot about this topic lately. How do players come up with their concept? Does it include a class, or does that come later?

For me I think I usually have a mental image or I see a picture that I think is cool, then the concept starts to fill in around it. I use reskinning with abandon to make the concept as optimal as I can, because usually being effective is part of what I'm picturing.

I shared my views in my latest video: (https://youtu.be/1okK0Gbzx7U)

I'm a very mechanically-oriented person. It doesn't matter how a person/ability looks, it mattes how it plays. It doesn't matter if you want to reskin the Domain of Life Cleric as a Domain of Undeath, because you thought it was cool, if the mechanics are contradictory to what you are actually wanting to do. At the end of the day, these are the abilities and end results you're going to be using to shape the world, and you don't want your narrative to fight that.

When the game has strict mechanics and open-ended narratives, the limiting factor is always going to be the mechanics. So focus on that first since everything else can work around it.

For example, maybe I want to play a support that uses adaptive strategies as opposed to boring, reoccurring, proactive ones. Less Bless, more Sanctuary. Grave Cleric has a lot of options for making spot-decisions on an as-needed basis (do I prepare Healing Word, or just rely on Spare the Dying?) Divine Soul Sorcerer could also fit, but it has too much emphasis on maintaining boring, proactive Concentration spells, and I want to avoid that. So Grave Cleric it is.

Now that I know what I'm going to be doing, I fill in WHY I want to be doing that. Maybe I'm used to adapting, or maybe bad things just happen to me and I've learned to expect the worst (and not to plan for the best). Maybe I'm impatient (not expecting a problem until it shows up), or maybe I AM patient (and choose to wait for the problem to come as opposed to shooting Haste as soon as physically possible). Make the narrative fit the mechanics that both define my character.

From the narrative of my character, I fill out a backstory that compliments it.

Once I'm done, I'm left with a character that plays exactly how I want to play, in a way that fits his personality, from a backstory that built the character from the ground up. There is no clashing, no "reskinning", and any problems of clashing between narrative and mechanics are resolved/accepted at the very first stage of character creation (so I know, as a Grave Cleric, that I'm not going to be doing damage, and that isn't going to be a surprise/frustration later).

Now, when someone on my team witnesses my character in combat, they'll recognize how my actions, my personality, and my background supports a cohesive character concept.

I'm not just some healer with a tragic backstory that happens to occasionally stop people from dying, I pick and choose people's fates because I lack the power to determine my own.

[Unoriginal]

I think of a character that sounds fun to play at a table. Then I see how they can fit the game and the world.

Sometime the class is included in the concept that I find fun. Like "man, a Fighter Kobold who wants to be a jousting champion sounds fun."

[Max_Killjoy]

I've been thinking a lot about this topic lately. How do players come up with their concept? Does it include a class, or does that come later?

For me I think I usually have a mental image or I see a picture that I think is cool, then the concept starts to fill in around it. I use reskinning with abandon to make the concept as optimal as I can, because usually being effective is part of what I'm picturing.

I shared my views in my latest video: (https://youtu.be/1okK0Gbzx7U)

The character comes to mind first.

Then I look for the mechanics that fit the character's concept, abilities, etc.

This is why something like HERO System works better for me than D&D, I'm literally building the character's mechanical abilities to match the character, instead of trying to shoehorn the character into the mechanics. If for example I want a character based on raw speed and high Characteristics and a select set of special abilities, rather than a collection of Big Damn Class Powers, I can do that. Different ways of getting "good with swords" have some mechanical distinction. Getting lots of Skills is not locked behind being a charming performer or nimble sneak. If the only magic I want is a bunch of Cantrips, I can do that. Etc.

[nickl_2000]

I asked this once a long time ago. The most interesting answer I got from anyone was that they rolled on the random trinket table and build up the entire character off what they got from there.


Personally I usually have a class or style of combat that I want to play first, and then build the character from that. Although my next character (my current campaign is coming to a rapid close) came from a background option that was offered for Dragonheist and his class developed from that background option and personality in my mind.

[Unoriginal]

I asked this once a long time ago. The most interesting answer I got from anyone was that they rolled on the random trinket table and build up the entire character off what they got from there.


Personally I usually have a class or style of combat that I want to play first, and then build the character from that. Although my next character (my current campaign is coming to a rapid close) came from a background option that was offered for Dragonheist and his class developed from that background option and personality in my mind.

Which background option, if you don't mind me asking?

[krugaan]

usually based off a character in movies / TVs / shows. or an image.

I was just thinking about how one would create a telekinetic character, and it basically boiled down to "sorcerer with a different spell list".

Although, I must admit, tidal wave seems like a much cooler spell when I imagine it as a wave of psychic fury instead of ... well, water.

[nickl_2000]

Which background option, if you don't mind me asking?

Noble Scion was the one that jumped out at me. I liked the idea of a child of an ostracized minor member of a noble family. The character has a lot of pride and gets respect for his name, but really has more of a connection to the regular people than the noble class.

[Man_Over_Game]

usually based off a character in movies / TVs / shows. or an image.

I was just thinking about how one would create a telekinetic character, and it basically boiled down to "sorcerer with a different spell list".

Although, I must admit, tidal wave seems like a much cooler spell when I imagine it as a wave of psychic fury instead of ... well, water.

Talk to your DM about just changing damage types.

Lightning > Piercing
Cold, Thunder > Bludgeoning
Acid, Fire > Slashing
All other damage types: Psychic.

It makes the Sorcerer into a decent enough psionic with these changes.

[krugaan]

Talk to your DM about just changing damage types.

Lightning > Piercing
Cold, Thunder > Bludgeoning
Acid, Fire > Slashing
All other damage types: Psychic.

It makes the Sorcerer into a decent enough psionic with these changes.

Not a strict psionic, just telekinetic. Like, no mind stuff. So stuff like shadowblade would be fine, but it would have to be force or slashing.

Actually, looking at the rough spell list I picked, a lot of wind and water spells seemed appropriate, oddly (gust, warding wind, etc

[Rerem115]

I'm more mechanics oriented, but I mix it a bit with my backstory. Stuff like, "okay, I feel like playing a crit-fishing Half Elf champion/a Bearbarian who turns into an actual bear/the Shadowman from Princess and the Frog, how do I justify this in the context of my DM's world?"

[Anublet90]

For me, it's never really just one thing, more like something clicks for me. For example, the first time I was reading through the PHB something like this went down in my head.


"... Man, Tieflings have really weird stat boni."

"... Eldritch Knights look pretty sweet, always been a fan of gish-types."

"... Oh wow, Warlocks have crazy-good RP potential. Wonder if it would be too corny to have your own ancestor be your Patron as a Tiefling."

"... Hey, you can go full crazy-from-the-Necronomicon and have crunch to support it, I love it!"

"... Repelling Blast lets you use your Eldritch Blast to push people around? That sounds pretty neat, wonder if you can leverage that."

"... This Polearm Master seems pretty powerful, I need to remember this one."

"... Wow, Shillelagh seems like it could enable a lot of builds."

"... This Thorn Whip spell is pretty cool. Wait, how did that Eldritch Knight ability work again?"

"... Ohh, that's perfect! Pity Druids are Wisdom-based though, I'd love to- hey, wait a minute!"


And so the quarterstaff-wielding Fighter(Eldritch Knight) 7/Warlock (Fiend-Tome) 3 Tiefling-of-no-name serving his granpa's schemes was born.

[VonKaiserstein]

Usually I start with concept, then find the mechanical best fit for it, and then go to the fluff. Inevitably, the concept also brings up the old debate what can I do that I haven't done before?

I wanted to leap around the battlefield, whacking things with polearms really, really hard.

The best way I found to do it was an orc ranger, with just enough dex to get the most out of medium armor. The rest went to strength, and the idea of using the spells to move around to where I can roll the most attacks from horde breaker. I'll make heavy use of Zephyr strike, and Jump.

Then I start working backwards for how my character came to be the way they were. This character was saved by a town guardsmen using one of the polearms, and sought to emulate his style. Unfortunately, no town really believed he was trying to work for their good, and he had to improvise his own training. He saw the militia recruits running and marching, but never saw them drilling, so he focused on running- a lot. He became very, very fast, and tapped into some of his presumed Orcish heritage. Depending on how the DM rolls with it, I might be able to get him some further tainted blood with some form of evil or chaotic corruption running in his veins and providing the basis for his spells- otherwise I'm focusing on the spells simulating combat maneuvers from someone who is improbably fit.

So basically- an outcast, wannabe guardsmen who steps up and fights things in the woods that his village never sees, and never knows to fear- every time he returns covered in wounds, exotic bloods, and occasionally pulling along corpses made it easier for the Elders to get him banned from the town- by the simple expedient of having the militia Captain deputize him and send him off on a quest.

I start with what I want to do as I play, get the mechanics lined up, and then get myself a character that I can have fun with.

[Rukelnikov]

I vary a lot, in general its mostly either an archetype or template(I played WoD a lot, and templates are pretty defining) that I later translate to mechanics. Sometimes its an idea which involves as much character as it does mechanics, for instance "I wanna play a character that never rolls attacks", in 3.e I once wanted a character that didn't have a "rountine" in combat. Rarely if ever do I make a character based solely on mechanics, like full build and then add fluff to it. Mainly because I don't like planning full builds for my PCs, I want them living and will generally take levels or feats depending on their experiences in game, of course I will start building towards the initial concept, but often will start picking other things before getting there.

IME, effectiveness in combat is an illusion, there's only effectiveness in relation to the rest of the party, so I don't care to build "effective" combat characters, I do that in theorycrafting and in CRPGs, for actual TTRPGs, character per se is leaps and bounds more important. If its the case the character concept demands he is a great combatant, then I will make one, but since the latter part of my 3.x years, I haven't made a PC like that.


Not a strict psionic, just telekinetic. Like, no mind stuff. So stuff like shadowblade would be fine, but it would have to be force or slashing.

Actually, looking at the rough spell list I picked, a lot of wind and water spells seemed appropriate, oddly (gust, warding wind, etc

Sounds like a Soulknife (3.x one)

[2D8HP]

Usually the character concept comes first - but admittedly the concepts usually aren't that developed beyond "Kinda like Conan/Fafhrd/The Grey Mouser/Robin Hood/Ulrich von Beck/Sinbad/"guy with a bow, sword, and some skills".

Sometimes I'll see an ability listed and go from there ("Gloom Stalker/Scout/Swashbuckler look cool, I wanna try it!")

Comme ci comme ça.

[krugaan]

Sounds like a Soulknife (3.x one)

no idea, never played 3.x, but probably. There's a ridiculous amount of splat in 3.x, or so I hear.

[Guy Lombard-O]

I usually see a class/subclass (or multi-class) that I want to try out, mostly focused upon the mechanics, and then build out from there. Usually the background is chosen primarily for the skills as well.

But I do then take the mechanics as a whole and try to figure out who that person would actually be. I won't play the build if I can't find some sort of backstory and character for it that rings true and makes sense.

[Waazraath]

I've been thinking a lot about this topic lately. How do players come up with their concept? Does it include a class, or does that come later?

For me I think I usually have a mental image or I see a picture that I think is cool, then the concept starts to fill in around it. I use reskinning with abandon to make the concept as optimal as I can, because usually being effective is part of what I'm picturing.

I shared my views in my latest video: (https://youtu.be/1okK0Gbzx7U)

3 options:

1) I adept to what the party needs. This is mostly about mechanics: I like optimizing for group succes, and if the rest of the players are certain what they want to play, I enjoy making something that enhances the power of the group (going for buffs this specific party benefits from, or filling in blank spaces).

2) first creating a concept, and looking for mechanics to go with it ("a xteenth son from a noble house who has lots of talent, but wasted most of it enjoying the good (night) life. High charisma, dabbles in spell casting, dabbles in swordplay, but not great at either due to lack of focus. Can talk his way out of trouble though"). 5e has legion ways to build a concept like that though.

3) cool mechanic I want to try, and making up the rest around it.



I think this is also the order in which I've build most often.

[Waazraath]

scuse me, double post.

[qube]

the character idea for me comes first.

I never go "oh, crit fishing is powerful, let me make a barabrian champion halforc".

But oppositely, for example I have a ...( damn, the name of that half-angel race?) .. sorcadin before. He was a fire wielding homicidal fallen from grace arch angel type (the DM & party knew - if I detect evil, and it's evil, I attac, no questions asked, no mercy, no matter what) . sorcadin just happen to give a good combination of the ability to don & wield a full martial regalia and still get dececent spellcasting
Yet, I did not focus on smiting as one would expect a sorcadin to do, but on fire spells.

I've always opperated under the logic that the DM adjusts his encounters to the table anyway (you seriously shouldn't throw the same encounter against 4 noobs and 4 char oppers); so
...

think of fun characters, be at a powerlevel D&D was designed for - is my motto.

the idea of "mechanism X is powerful, let me see what I can make with it" ... just feels wrong to me (again, considering the above paragraph). It's cool for Theoretical Char OP ... but other then that ... meh.

[MrStabby]

I usually start with a a bit of a concept and a bit of a mechanical idea. The process is usually pretty similar between characters.

For example, my last campaign thoughts were:

I want to play maybe a religious guy, a scholar who through knowledge of demons, undead and the casters that summon them and generally things that go bump in the night can protect their communities and hunt down these threats. Sneaking, watching and understanding the threat before taking it down in a bit of a martial manner.

Key abilities are going to be high intelligence, good skills especially the stealth and knowledge skills. I will want banishment, turn undead, some defensive tricks like counterspell and some tricks for knowledge gathering (divination spells, invisibility). I will probably be wanting to pick up something like ritual caster along the way.

Next step I look for ways of picking up these features. Banishment is on most spell lists so put that aside. Turn undead will need cleric 2 or devotion paladin 3. So for the knowledge skills I either need high Int or I need to grab expertise, so I am either playing a wizard or a rogue or a knowledge cleric or possibly a lore bard.

So I then look at the list: Lore bard could work for picking up banishment at level 10 through magical secrets... though to then get the martial element I need probably another 5 levels of devotion paladin to pick up turn undead and extra attack for the martial feel. It does give me counterspell on the way which is nice. On the other hand this is a build that comes together at level 15... so I pass this by.

A martial presence and the banishment looks like it takes a lot of levels... unless I go warlock with pact of the blade. That at level 7 gives me banishment, counterspell, 2 attacks (devils sight, which feels like it rocks on the character). Even better I am not falling behind with crazy multiclassing... but I need that scholar/knowledgeable feel. Hexblade frees up some stats so I can boost Int... but if I want turn undead then I need high wisdom as well. This then means Paladin for the turn undead and grabbing rogue or burning a feat for expertise OR High wisdom and a couple of levels of Knowledge cleric.

In the end I plump for this - take Warlock to 7, then Cleric to 2 then throw in a couple of rogue levels.

I see what other people are bringing to the table: Divination Wizard, Conquest Paladin with Pole-Arm mastery aiming to pick up sentinel, Sharp-shooter valor bard. I think screw it, this heap of crap I have planned out doesn't really have a role in this party; I guess I will play something else.

[sithlordnergal]

I tend to do Class and Mechanics first, to and including feats and multiclassing. The character and back story much later. Usually I just give a backstory, and details on how they look at first. I almost never do anything personality wise until a few levels in when I learn how the character plays and acts in game

[Captain Panda]

I treat both as equally important. I optimize heavily, but also put a lot of work into the personalities and voices of the characters I've played. As to which I start with... it depends! Usually concept, but sometimes I really want to play something specific (like a coffeelock) that I haven't tried before, so I make the concept fit the mechanics.

[Lunali]

I typically do mechanics first as I often create characters that aren't actually going to see play, but that I want to have around in case I need a character. The actual story stuff I prefer to do when I'm actually going to play the character, both to make it easier to fit into whatever need came up and so I don't get too attached to a new character and want to play it instead of the one(s) I'm actually playing.

[Shuruke]

For me its a

I see something in a show, movie, game etc and twist and Frankenstein into a character.

Dragon age Templar, mixed with cleric of the arcane whom believes magic is a nuetral force and how you use it matters (Wee Jas is god.) Mixed with few other things to
Finally have a forest gnome whom has multiple different arcane symbols, sacrificial knife he uses on himself for healing spells (like blood magic) and then also mixed in aspects of the dark magic from dragon prince theateic wise for how casting changes eyes etc.


Another one was a mix of a rogue like character from a magic anime movie, a sode character from overlord, creepy cryptic riddles , and Cheshire cat
He started at level 6 and its almost been a to level 20 campaign

[Tharkun]

My technique is a mix of concept and mechanics. I am a returnee and so 5e is relatively new to me. At this point I am making relatively straight characters because that space isn't played out for me. I am the kind of person who spends hours on backgrounds but also want to leave plot hooks for the DM.

As I am getting to a point where I want to do more and more, I am leaning toward running homebrew again as a DM. I love making characters, organizations and worlds. So I tend to make interesting characters NPCs.

[farrenj]

My first question is usually "what is everyone else playing?" I've been playing for decades and I still like to explore new ideas but I can usually do that while still filling a niche the party is missing while avoiding two of us stepping on each other's toes mechanically.

[PhoenixPhyre]

As the most mechanically ept person in my group, I'm usually batting cleanup. I wait until everyone else has picked a basic character, then start with filling in the gaps.

For my last character, I knew I needed to be a support type, as we had a barbarian, a paladin, and a wizard.

Then I start creating a bunch of skeleton builds for various types that fit the need. In this case, the two obvious ones were cleric and bard. Since I knew it was going to be combat heavy (and I wanted to play around with multiclassing), I figured I'd go mixed bard/warlock or nature cleric. To cover thieves tools, I knew I needed a background--either urchin or criminal. The cleric just didn't seem to fit, so I focused on the bardlock skeleton

At that point I tried to figure out who these people are. What kind of person were they? Where did they come from? What "twist", personality wise, did they have? Why were they adventuring?

Drawing inspiration from a theme of "Disney Princesses, reversed", I went with males.
One option was Valiant, the Fey-pact Warlock (later to go bard). He had been cursed/blessed by a mischievous nature spirit. All the animals loved him. And he hated it. Sort of the "Snow White surrounded by little animals" theme...just inverted.

The other option was Flynn Rider. As he (then she) developed, I figured he was an urchin who was sent to minstrel school in Waterdeep for his beautiful soprano voice (pre-puberty). But then at puberty he was kicked out because his adult voice was awful. And he resented that. Vowing to get back at them and show those fools just how great he was, he studied and made a pact with a servant of Milil for "the best voice." This servant, being the prankster type, decided the best voice for him belonged to a (now-dead) opera singer. A soprano, in fact. A female soprano. And decided that in order to make this work, he'd have to also take the body. The celestial demanded that Flynn also go fight evil in the north, where cults were gathering (we're playing PotA). So Flynn, now a woman, set off on her adventures. This was the one I picked, because it resonated (pun intended).

[Guy Lombard-O]

As the most mechanically ept person in my group, I'm usually batting cleanup. I wait until everyone else has picked a basic character, then start with filling in the gaps.

I start creating a bunch of skeleton builds for various types that fit the need. In this case, the two obvious ones were cleric and bard.

What "twist", personality wise, did they have?

You mean, like this...? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFjvmThY4wU

[KorvinStarmast]

Hello Treantmonk.

Class and Concept
My character concept is to always pick last. It is important to me that my character fit the group and fill in a niche that the other character choices may have left open. I've been at this game long enough that my own fun isn't my first priority. My desire is that the group succeed and be flexible/adaptable. My choices can influence that. Once I know what the others are playing, I begin a circular class/background/race multiple-iterative process to come up with a fit. But I don't play Tieflings, since there isn't a 5e Planescape setting yet.

Optimization
I have some key basics that are informed by how this game works.
1. Constitution is always, once race is chosen (and or feat) no less than 12, and is usually 14 at level 1. There are too many things that rely on Constitution for me to neglect that. (And poison saves seem to happen quite a bit at early levels). Plus, if you aren't a hale and hearty sort, and don't have plot armor like Raistlan did, you need it simply to go adventuring.

2. Dexterity. This has been true for me since about AD&D 1 E - always have a decent Dex score. Rarely a poor dex. Since it informs initiative and is a very common saving throw, it is never a value to give a ( - ) on a saving throw.

3. Spell Casters: casting stat is boosted as a critical priority. So many class features, to include the to hit or save for one's cantrips, hinge on the spell save DC that not boosting this seems to me a poor choice.

4. Background. What interests me for this campaign? This isn't so much an "optimize" approach as a "what is fun for me?" approach in most cases. Also, I have a tendency (due to my career in the Navy and my interest in Pirates) to default to Sailor when not quite sure what fits.
That I can role play with no trouble.

5. The character I most wish was not in a dormant campaign is my Archfey Chain Pact Warlock. Background Entertainer. His back story (his dad was a bard) and his general demeanor is all about being a performer and part of a circus troupe while young. He is very open about carrying his lute with him wherever he does.
His Warlockiness he keeps under wraps until things get difficult.
His first two invocations were speak with animals (at will) and Agonizing Blast. (Almost went with Repelling, it was a hard choice to make).
That campaign went to sleep when the DM, my Nephew, went off to college for his third year. It never woke back up. :(

[patchyman]

Since I always have a dozen potential characters in mind, I tend to choose last in the group.

1. What is the group missing?
2. Within that design space, what would be an interesting concept that subverts expectations or sends up stereotypes?
3. Would that character be fun to play for more than a couple of sessions?
4. Is it possible to make that character within the 5e mechanical system?
5. Within the previous constraints, what is necessary to reach a baseline or better effectiveness?

After that stuff is decided, background and race usually just fall into place, though often choice of race will cause me to tweak some of the other answers.

Sometimes though, I will just choose a race and go “What kind of non standard character can I make with this race that is still surprisingly effective?”

[MikeRoxTheBoat]

For me I think I usually have a mental image or I see a picture that I think is cool, then the concept starts to fill in around it. I use reskinning with abandon to make the concept as optimal as I can, because usually being effective is part of what I'm picturing.


This is my 3rd step.

Step 1 is rolling for stats if the game rolls for stats. Weird arrays have messed up my concepts before, as well as good arrays making me want to do something unusual that I normally wouldn't get a chance to do because of stat limitations. Obviously I skip this step if it's point-buy.

Step 2 is figuring out the party make-up. It's a little gamey, but I like to make sure we have all the roles covered. If one isn't, I'll usually take that. If everything is covered, then I can go crazy.

Step 3 is looking through billions and billions of pictures until one jumps out at me that I can't help but immediately apply a story to.

Step 4 optimize everything I can after I get all of the required story elements I've built up taken care of. I play a lot of non optimal races for different classes if it fits my idea of their story in my head or from the picture, but I try to squeeze out bits of optimization where I can.

So far, I've been pretty happy with how the characters have come out. I think my only regret is that games usually don't last long enough to really explore a lot of the personal stories that these characters have, but that comes with the territory.