Are there any Spellthief-like classes for Pathfinder?

[Galacktic]

Hello there! I was just wondering if there was ever a re-print of Spellthief in Pathfinder, or a reimagining or similar of it? Most things are open - Spheres of Might/Power, Path of War, etc.! - if base PF doesn't have it. Homebrew is a consideration. Thank you!

[Eldonauran]

As far as being able to 'steal' magic, I am aware that the Arcanist has a greater Exploit called "Spell Thief (Su)".

[Kurald Galain]

There's a bard archetype that does that, and it's about as powerful as 3E's spellthief. Which is to say, not very.

More to the point, there's a couple ways to deflect spells back to their source, primarily single-target spells. Would that help you?

[Galacktic]

I'm fine with being a bit underpowered with it, honestly. I was hoping for direct spellthievery - both from allies and enemies, and potentially magic items or active buffs and stuff - but I'll take what I can get! Spell deflection is similar, but I like the ability to hold onto the spell for a while if need be.

[Psyren]

There's a bard archetype that does that, and it's about as powerful as 3E's spellthief. Which is to say, not very.

More to the point, there's a couple ways to deflect spells back to their source, primarily single-target spells. Would that help you?

That archetype is Sandman (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo-bard-archetypes/sandman/), for the curious

[SangoProduction]

If we're getting in to Spheres of Power (a subsystem of Pathfinder), the Elementalist has an archetype called the Arcanophage (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/arcanophage).

Although, it's much more of a "steal as they cast it" rather than "steal before they cast it" sort of deal...which is actually an incredible amount stronger, all things considered...assuming you picked up Counterspell Mastery feat from SoP (see here for all counterspell feats (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/counterspell-feats)).

It does have 2 drawbacks however:
1) The additional talents gained are dependent on the enemy caster being a sphere caster....or your DM being a nice guy and roughing in approximate sphere talents for spells.
2) Although this is true with all "mage-hate" classes/builds...if you don't face mages, you are going to be pretty sad.

[Galacktic]

If we're getting in to Spheres of Power (a subsystem of Pathfinder), the Elementalist has an archetype called the Arcanophage (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/arcanophage).

Although, it's much more of a "steal as they cast it" rather than "steal before they cast it" sort of deal...which is actually an incredible amount stronger, all things considered...assuming you picked up Counterspell Mastery feat from SoP (see here for all counterspell feats (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/counterspell-feats)).

It does have 2 drawbacks however:
1) The additional talents gained are dependent on the enemy caster being a sphere caster....or your DM being a nice guy and roughing in approximate sphere talents for spells.
2) Although this is true with all "mage-hate" classes/builds...if you don't face mages, you are going to be pretty sad.

I love Arcanophage, honestly. It was gonna be my backup if I couldn't get a proper Spellthief going somehow. I just have a huge soft spot for the class based on my earliest 3.5 characters who was a Spellthief into Incantatrix.

[StSword]

Well that depends on what you mean by similar.

The Conduit class, from Amora Games Liber Influxus Communis, absorbs magic energy, but it doesn't mimic spells.

The Battle Augur (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/samurai-sheepdog/battle-augur/) class is a blue mage type, but it doesn't steal, just mimic.

Likewise the Echo class from Classes of the Lost Spheres Echo and City of Seven Seraphs is all about mimicking things other people do, spells included, but it doesn't steal.

Liking the whole blue mage thing, by the same publisher there is the Book of Beyond: Liminal Power, which has the Mirrormind Archetype for the Psion, which turns them into a blue mage able to duplicate spells, but again, they don't steal.

And finally, there's a class that doesn't have spell thieving as a it's major focus but can do so- Quasar Knight's Abstract Thief. One of the several abstractions they can steal is spells known or memorized, which allows them to cast said spell. It's also a stealth based spellcasting class, so I think it's the closest to a Spell Thief for Pathfinder that I'm aware of.

[CharonsHelper]

There's a bard archetype that does that, and it's about as powerful as 3E's spellthief. Which is to say, not very.

3E's spellthief was pretty solid IF you have the right group. On their own I'll 100% agree that they were pretty terrible, but if you had a sorcerer and/or battle cleric in the party who was willing to play along they suddenly became awesome.

The trick was to NOT rely upon actually stealing spells from enemies. If you did - great. But don't rely upon it.

The spellthief worked when it acted as a chassis for the sorcerer's & cleric's extra spells (since both only VERY rarely burn all of their spells). Especially the ones which the spellthief could use better - like anything with a touch attack (since they likely had better DEX & added SA damage). A spellthief borrowing touch spells is nasty. Especially in 3.5, a lot of those were really good except that the wizard/sorcerer had to use them, while the spellthief has better DEX, BAB, and potentially adds sneak attack damage. Plus - when they get SA damage - they can steal spells as gravy!

Plus - the spellthief could play the skill monkey role nearly as well as the rogue.

The key is - DO NOT think of the spellthief as a half-a$$ rogue who can steal spells occasionally - think of him as a bada$$ chassis for the casters to more effectively use their low level spells who can ALSO act as a mediocre rogue.

Now - was it as powerful as a true tier 1 caster? No. But if you had the right group and they let you borrow excess spells, they were very solid.

Note: On my first reading, I thought that the class was terrible. But they have potential - though I doubt in the way that its designer actually intended.



Anyway OP - if your group is allowing Homebrew - what's wrong with just porting a 3.5 Spellthief? I'm sure that they'd let you bump up the HP to a d8 to match other rogue-y classes. So long as your group has a spellcaster or two who will play along it should work fine.

[Galacktic]

3E's spellthief was pretty solid IF you have the right group. On their own I'll 100% agree that they were pretty terrible, but if you had a sorcerer and/or battle cleric in the party who was willing to play along they suddenly became awesome.

The trick was to NOT rely upon actually stealing spells from enemies. If you did - great. But don't rely upon it.

The spellthief worked when it acted as a chassis for the sorcerer's & cleric's extra spells (since both only VERY rarely burn all of their spells). Especially the ones which the spellthief could use better - like anything with a touch attack (since they likely had better DEX & added SA damage). A spellthief borrowing touch spells is nasty. Especially in 3.5, a lot of those were really good except that the wizard/sorcerer had to use them, while the spellthief has better DEX, BAB, and potentially adds sneak attack damage. Plus - when they get SA damage - they can steal spells as gravy!

Plus - the spellthief could play the skill monkey role nearly as well as the rogue.

The key is - DO NOT think of the spellthief as a half-a$$ rogue who can steal spells occasionally - think of him as a bada$$ chassis for the casters to more effectively use their low level spells who can ALSO act as a mediocre rogue.

Now - was it as powerful as a true tier 1 caster? No. But if you had the right group and they let you borrow excess spells, they were very solid.

Note: On my first reading, I thought that the class was terrible. But they have potential - though I doubt in the way that its designer actually intended.



Anyway OP - if your group is allowing Homebrew - what's wrong with just porting a 3.5 Spellthief? I'm sure that they'd let you bump up the HP to a d8 to match other rogue-y classes. So long as your group has a spellcaster or two who will play along it should work fine.



Hilariously, I just got done doing that - I made my own port of Spellthief with some Spheres of Power/Psionics combination built into it, along with a few other mild buffs to put it up to my group's power level. It has a few rough edges still but I'm throwing it at the group to see what they think about it and how they would tweak it balance-wise.

I'm definitely gonna look at the Abstract Thief though. Thank you everyone!

[CharonsHelper]

Hilariously, I just got done doing that - I made my own port of Spellthief with some Spheres of Power/Psionics combination built into it, along with a few other mild buffs to put it up to my group's power level. It has a few rough edges still but I'm throwing it at the group to see what they think about it and how they would tweak it balance-wise.

I'm definitely gonna look at the Abstract Thief though. Thank you everyone!

I really don't think that 3.5's Spellthief NEEDS buffing to be playable other than the obvious buffing of HD to d8. Maybe you could argue for getting the Master Spellthief feat for free (so you can cast Wizard spells in armor), but it isn't required. Though - I'd probably argue for getting rogue archetypes if you have everything that they give up (like several which give up Trapfinding").

One inherent low level boost that you may not have considered - unlike in 3.5, your allies aren't giving up anything by giving you level 0 spells. For the first few levels are the one time when the casters might not be feeling generous with any spells, but they can still pony up level 0 spells without costing them anything. And a level 1 Spellthief with a couple of Ray of Frost spells can be pretty mean since they get SA to make the damage decent, and unlike a wizard/sorcerer, you should have decent accuracy.

Final note for your build. With the Master Spellthief feat (note: only increases the spell level you can STEAL, not what you can STORE), I'd suggest dipping a level into Magus for Spell Combat by level 3-4 - which would be AMAZING while chucking out wizard/cleric spells. (Melee a Chill Touch with SA and then cast Vanish before 5ft stepping to the side? Yes please.) A second level for Spellstrike could be nice too eventually, but not required.

[Arkain]

Final note for your build. With the Master Spellthief feat (note: only increases the spell level you can STEAL, not what you can STORE), I'd suggest dipping a level into Magus for Spell Combat by level 3-4 - which would be AMAZING while chucking out wizard/cleric spells. (Melee a Chill Touch with SA and then cast Vanish before 5ft stepping to the side? Yes please.) A second level for Spellstrike could be nice too eventually, but not required.

Both only work with spells from the Magus spell list though, so it's probably not worth the dip, unless you want to steal a lot of spells from that list.

[CharonsHelper]

Both only work with spells from the Magus spell list though, so it's probably not worth the dip, unless you want to steal a lot of spells from that list.

They have to be from the Magus spell list (which is quite large), but they don't have to be Magus spells.

While you couldn't use it for divine spells or a few arcane spells, if there is a Sorcerer in the group to borrow from you should be able to use Spell Combat most of the time when casting level 0-6 spells.

But I concede your point. I still think that it's a solid dip, but I should have mentioned the limitation.

[Kurald Galain]

They have to be from the Magus spell list (which is quite large), but they don't have to be Magus spells.

Nice try, but no. It has to be a magus spell you know, and it must be a magus spell prepared with one of your magus spell slots. (https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9rdm)

[CharonsHelper]

Nice try, but no. It has to be a magus spell you know, and it must be a magus spell prepared with one of your magus spell slots. (https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9rdm)

Fair 'nuff. Though - I wouldn't really consider that to be FAQ. That's straight up errata/patching.

In that case I agree that Magus would be a poor dip for a Spellthief.

The only super obvious multi-class for a Spellthief then would be a few levels of Arcane Trickster once you get up to level 2 spells.

It might also be fun to try to make Spellthief mesh with a Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple build - but that wouldn't be a normal Spellthief at all.

[Psyren]

Fair 'nuff. Though - I wouldn't really consider that to be FAQ. That's straight up errata/patching.

The distinction in PF is largely academic, and rightfully so; it has a lot more to do with the realities of publishing printed rules than any concerns over legitimacy of the rulings. Or put another way, an official ruling is an official ruling is an official ruling.

[CharonsHelper]

The distinction in PF is largely academic, and rightfully so; it has a lot more to do with the realities of publishing printed rules than any concerns over legitimacy of the rulings. Or put another way, an official ruling is an official ruling is an official ruling.

Sure - I'm not trying to argue the ruling.

I was just pointing out that it wasn't a matter of my misreading the rules as they were written. I would certainly argue that my reading was correct as they were initially written - Paizo just came along later with the "FAQ" to nix that particular use of the mechanic. And that's totally okay. I'm not bitter about it or some such.

[upho]

Hilariously, I just got done doing that - I made my own port of Spellthief with some Spheres of Power/Psionics combination built into it, along with a few other mild buffs to put it up to my group's power level. It has a few rough edges still but I'm throwing it at the group to see what they think about it and how they would tweak it balance-wise.

I'm definitely gonna look at the Abstract Thief though. Thank you everyone!You can get some additional inspiration from PoW:s Shattered Mirror discipline, including maneuvers such as the hillarious Plagiarism (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/shattered-mirror-maneuvers/#TOC-Plagiarism) counter which can also steal abilities other than spells.