What kinds of spells should have upcasting options?

[CheddarChampion]

Inspired by the recent thread about the best spells to upcast, I was wondering which spells should gain an effect when upcast but don't.
For example: Haste doesn't gain a benefit, but it would make sense to be able to target 2 creatures on a 5th or 6th level slot, 3 on a 7th or 8th, and 4 on a 9th.
Now, I'm not proposing to make this change, just wondering which spells can't be upcast for unclear reasons.

[Man_Over_Game]

Inspired by the recent thread about the best spells to upcast, I was wondering which spells should gain an effect when upcast but don't.
For example: Haste doesn't gain a benefit, but it would make sense to be able to target 2 creatures on a 5th or 6th level slot, 3 on a 7th or 8th, and 4 on a 9th.
Now, I'm not proposing to make this change, just wondering which spells can't be upcast for unclear reasons.

Save-or-suck spells should be allowed to be upcasted for multiple targets (Banishment, Hold Person), as there's likely only a single target you ACTUALLY want it to work on, and casting it on multiple creatures only increases your chances of not wasting the spell, not inherently making the spell more efficient. While you're also "doubling" the effect of the spell, this is fine because it could just as well fail on all of your targets and do nothing. You are not getting a guaranteed result, and so the risk scales with what you put into it. High risk deserves high rewards.

Haste, which has a 100% chance of succeeding, should not be upcasted, or at least shouldn't be allowed to cast on multiple creatures via upcasting (Casting it as a 4th level spell means you've just doubled its effectiveness, basically 2 level 3 spells for a single Concentration). However, a buff spell that already targets multiple creatures (Bless) should allow upcasting to increase the number of creatures targeted.

A good scaling option for single-target buffs (Haste) would be to find some variable that increases the spell's power. In Haste's example, increase the AC bonus to scale to the level of the spell -1 (so casting a level 4 spell slot grants you +3 AC instead of the default +2).

Note that the most inevitable of spells (Like Power Word Kill and Stun) are impossible to resist, yet are very high level. Low risk should mean that it's either weak (Magic Missile) or expensive (Power Word: Kill). Due to this, spells that halve their damage on a save should only scale in damage, as that's guaranteed damage (Neener, neener, I cast Fireball at 9th level, and there's nothing you can do about it!).

Any spells that don't fit what's already been described should probably get +5 feet to their radius (and the size of a circle grows quadratically when the radius grows linearly), or +50% to their duration, per level. Both of these make the spell more "efficient", but not necessarily more "potent" (which means that they become a better niche use as opposed to completely overlapping higher level spells).

[CheddarChampion]

I think I learned a bit about game design today. Thanks Man_Over_Game!

[Man_Over_Game]

I think I learned a bit about game design today. Thanks Man_Over_Game!

:smallsmile:

No problem, Cheddar!

[Guy Lombard-O]

Feel a little silly tacking something on after MoG's reply, but...I'm a silly person.

The two spells I can think of off the top of my head are Shield of Faith (and in direct opposition to MoG's rule, I'd think it would give +2 AC buff to another target when upcast), and Counterspell. Of course, I do understand that Counterspell does actually have an effect when upcast, but I think it's effect is incomplete. In cases where you upcast Counterspell using a higher-than-3rd-level slot, but still a lower level spell slot than the spell you're attempting to counter, I think the additional slot levels should subtract from the DC of the Counterspell attempt.

[Man_Over_Game]

Feel a little silly tacking something on after MoG's reply, but...I'm a silly person.

The two spells I can think of off the top of my head are Shield of Faith (and in direct opposition to MoG's rule, I'd think it would give +2 AC buff to another target when upcast), and Counterspell. Of course, I do understand that Counterspell does actually have an effect when upcast, but I think it's effect is incomplete. In cases where you upcast Counterspell using a higher-than-3rd-level slot, but still a lower level spell slot than the spell you're attempting to counter, I think the additional slot levels should subtract from the DC of the Counterspell attempt.

I think those are both great choices. Shield of Faith is always ignored in lieu of Shield or Bless, but it's also a level 1 spell that you're casting with a level 2 spell slot. You could be casting Hold Person, Heat Metal, Shadow Blade, or Invisibility with the same spell slot. +2 AC to two allies doesn't seem like a bad idea at all.

Here's a good way of looking at it: If duplicating it with a 9th level spell was overpowered, don't do it. Casting Haste on 7 allies is too strong (as that's an additional 7 actions per round), but granting 9 allies +2 AC doesn't seem that big of a deal in comparison, as a CR 20 creature isn't going to care if you bumped up your AC from 18 to 20.

As for Counterspell, I should say that I am vehemently against options that are straight up "better" than alternatives, and in this case, Counterspell can effectively have your Reaction nullify someone else's Action at the same exact (or less, if you cast Counterspell at level 3) spell cost.

That being said, F*CK COUNTERSPELL. It was a terrible choice for them to let it be upcasted like that from a balance perspective. Your recommendation doesn't keep it from being a good spell, it just keeps it from being the best. Now people will actually consider *not* preparing it for a change, rather than it being an automatic choice.

[stoutstien]

Divine favor is an odd one also. I'd say add a d4 every other lv would work best

[Misterwhisper]

1. ALL Warlock specific spells, they have no choice but to upcast so the idea that Hunger of Hadar doesn’t scale for them is a slap in the face.

1b. Let Warlocks use their Mystic Arcanum to cast their first choice OR an upcast warlock only spell. Again, the idea that any bard, anyone with a certain background or any multi class full caster can cast Armor of Agathys better than a warlock himself is also a slap in the face.

2. All evocation spells, it is very easy to do and balance, so they should all get it.

Those are the only ones that should be across the board.

Most others are iffy, aoe spells are more acceptable with bigger range or area are fine but the idea of save or suck spells that normally target one person targeting more is far too powerful.

They could be adjusted to work though.

Extra target per level of Tasha’s is too much but 1 target for each 2 extra levels of they are within 20 feet of each other, ok.

[Hytheter]

Haste, which has a 100% chance of succeeding, should not be upcasted, or at least shouldn't be allowed to cast on multiple creatures via upcasting (Casting it as a 4th level spell means you've just doubled its effectiveness, basically 2 level 3 spells for a single Concentration).

What about OP's actual proposal, which was to only scale up for every 2 levels in the vein of Hex or Shadow Blade? Double haste for a 4th level slot might be too much too much, but what about a fifth level slot, eventually scaling up to four targets at 9th level?

[Dr. Cliché]

Here's a good way of looking at it: If duplicating it with a 9th level spell was overpowered, don't do it. Casting Haste on 7 allies is too strong (as that's an additional 7 actions per round), but granting 9 allies +2 AC doesn't seem that big of a deal in comparison, as a CR 20 creature isn't going to care if you bumped up your AC from 18 to 20.

See, I don't actually think that would be too strong at all.

For one, how many parties even have 7 characters? I guess you could use the extra on a random guard or such, but I doubt it will significantly improve their contribution to the fight.

Second, your claim that it grants 7 actions per round is completely fallacious. At best, you'll get 7 extra attacks per round from the entire party. And this is assuming that everyone in the party uses their action to attack - with the party apparently not containing even a single spellcaster (I wonder who cast Haste in the first place? :smallconfused:).

What's more, Haste has a rather noteworthy downside. If the caster loses Concentration for any reason (or if a fight lasts for over 1 minute), then the entire party will be unable to act for a round. That seems like quite an important flaw. In fact, in any battle significant enough for you to cast Haste at 9th level, it seems like the sort of flaw that could spell the death of one - or even multiple - party members.

Finally, when you say that this would be overpowered, are you comparing it to the other 9th level spells? Whilst Hasting 7 people for 1 minute has its charms, I fail to see how it is superior to altering reality, gaining Advantage on basically everything (and opposing Disadvantage on anyone attacking you) for 8 hours, permanently turning yourself into a Dragon etc.


As has already been suggested, I could see Haste being tweaked so that you only get an extra target per 2 extra spell levels - just so that it doesn't double in effectiveness at Lv4. But IMO even with 7 targets it doesn't even compete with other Lv9 spells.

[stoutstien]

I'm curious how are some would rule up casted Ray of enfeeblement. I'm currently trying adding a new charge to the spell per spell level. So if they use a 3rd lv slot they can cast it twice if they maintain concentration.

[Chronos]

Increasing the AC bonus from Haste certainly isn't the way to go, because that's never the reason anyone is ever casting Haste. Right now, nobody ever upcasts Haste unless they're out of 3rd level slots, and if you scaled the AC, then that'd still be true. Upcasting shouldn't be "well, since you're wasting a high-level slot on this, we should take pity on you and give you a minor bonus". It should be a reason to cast the spell at higher level in the first place.

Nor is +1 target actually a doubling of the spell's effectiveness. If you can cast it once, you cast it on whichever party member does the most damage per attack. If you can cast it again, you cast it on whichever party member does the second-most damage per attack, which is going to be some amount less than the amount of the first party member. And this is even if you have multiple party members for whom it's worthwhile: Enough targets, and (as others have mentioned) you're hitting people who gain negligible benefit from a single weapon attack. In my current party of 6, for instance: The first target would be the ranger who contributes arrow damage plus Hunter's Mark plus possible Sharpshooter plus possible Favored Enemy. The second target would be the fighter, who just gets staff damage (and theoretically, an opportunity for another Superiority Die, but she can already blow through her full supply of those in a single round if she wants). The third target would be... one of the clerics, I guess? If they happen to use a weapon attack instead of spells? And it'd do very little for the wizard (who'd be casting it) or the bard.

[stoutstien]

Increasing the AC bonus from Haste certainly isn't the way to go, because that's never the reason anyone is ever casting Haste. Right now, nobody ever upcasts Haste unless they're out of 3rd level slots, and if you scaled the AC, then that'd still be true. Upcasting shouldn't be "well, since you're wasting a high-level slot on this, we should take pity on you and give you a minor bonus". It should be a reason to cast the spell at higher level in the first place.

Nor is +1 target actually a doubling of the spell's effectiveness. If you can cast it once, you cast it on whichever party member does the most damage per attack. If you can cast it again, you cast it on whichever party member does the second-most damage per attack, which is going to be some amount less than the amount of the first party member. And this is even if you have multiple party members for whom it's worthwhile: Enough targets, and (as others have mentioned) you're hitting people who gain negligible benefit from a single weapon attack. In my current party of 6, for instance: The first target would be the ranger who contributes arrow damage plus Hunter's Mark plus possible Sharpshooter plus possible Favored Enemy. The second target would be the fighter, who just gets staff damage (and theoretically, an opportunity for another Superiority Die, but she can already blow through her full supply of those in a single round if she wants). The third target would be... one of the clerics, I guess? If they happen to use a weapon attack instead of spells? And it'd do very little for the wizard (who'd be casting it) or the bard.

I am more worried about stepping on sorcerer toes as far as turning single Target into multi target.

[Vogie]

I think more spells should have up-casted abilities, but I don't think that simply moving the die up or multiplying targets is the way to go. Instead, I'd imagine more spells would have up-cast abilities like Bestow Curse which, when cast at a certain level, it no longer requires concentration.

Some other options for up-casting spells:

Greater Areas of Effect - perfect for things like Phantasmal Force or Burning hands
"Expert" spells, which generate low-level spell slots - As in the Expert Divination feature.
Multiple options - for spells such as Ice Knife, you could choose to increase either side of the spell (piercing damage or cold damage)
Counterspell resistance
Sculpting - perhaps the area of effect changes when upcast, a cone becomes a line, a sphere becomes a wall, single target becomes spehere, et cetera
Differing speeds - When cast at Xth level or higher, this spell can be cast as a bonus action. Or Reaction, even, for things like Shield of Faith or the like
Diversity & Niche uses - Maximilian’s Earthen Grasp, for example, could be upcast to reach further up from the ground, potentially plucking things from the sky or acting as an elevator for the caster
Combo Potential - Maybe certain spells act differently if you have other spells prepared/known - for example, if you know the True Strike Cantrip, spell attacks on targets within 30 ft have advantage.

I'd also like to see some Down-cast-able spells. That is, higher level spells that "unlock" the ability to cast a lower version of themself for a lower spell slot. A Magic: The Gathering Example (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=426829) - This fairly deadly (in MtG standards) spell also gives the player the option to use less mana (their equivalent resource) for a dramatically reduced effect, plus some bonuses - for that one particularly, it makes it harder to counter, as it's cycled not cast, and it allows you to draw a card. Apply that logic to D&D spells, which you don't really learn spells you aren't already able to cast, and you have a wealth of possibilities. Power Word Kill, the 9th level spell that instantly kills any target with 100 or less hit points, also grants you the ability to cast it at 4th level, but only killing targets of 10 hit points or less (our apologies to the family of John Peters, you know, the Commoner). Forecast could be cast at 2nd level, giving the caster only advantage on Initiative rolls (and knowledge of the weather) for 8 hours.

[LudicSavant]

A good scaling option for single-target buffs (Haste) would be to find some variable that increases the spell's power. In Haste's example, increase the AC bonus to scale to the level of the spell -1 (so casting a level 4 spell slot grants you +3 AC instead of the default +2).

Note that none of the AC boost spells scale. This is probably because +X AC will never stop being relevant as long as you maintain a decent base AC (and because there would be stacking concerns).

Blast spells scale, because you have to do a certain amount of damage in order for something to be worth using your action in the first place.

The potential for buff stacking may be a factor in whether things upcast. For example, Holy Weapon can be cast on a Magic Weapon, but can't be upcast. Shadow Blade, Elemental Weapon, and Magic Weapon can be upcast, but won't stack with a magic weapon.

Haste in particular doesn't really need scaling, because it already has it in the form of giving people extra actions, and their actions scaled.

[stoutstien]

Note that none of the AC boost spells scale. This is probably because +X AC will never stop being relevant as long as you maintain a decent base AC (and because there would be stacking concerns).

Blast spells scale, because you have to do a certain amount of damage in order for something to be worth using your action in the first place.
Increasing duration would hardly game-breaking. Eats up your concentration but I could see some situation where are you'd want shield of Faith to last longer

[Galithar]

I'm curious how are some would rule up casted Ray of enfeeblement. I'm currently trying adding a new charge to the spell per spell level. So if they use a 3rd lv slot they can cast it twice if they maintain concentration.

Looking at the spell I would think giving it a multi target function. Roll an attack roll against 1 target + 1 additional target for every spell level above second and they all get affected.

My 'worse' ideas for it are giving X rounds (where X is the number of levels upcast) of Disadvantage on the Con saving throw to remove the effect. Giving it the ability to scale to effect Dexterity based attacks as well. Or just a flat bonus to it's DC. All of those kind of break the typical mold of upcasting though.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I think more spells should have up-casted abilities, but I don't think that simply moving the die up or multiplying targets is the way to go. Instead, I'd imagine more spells would have up-cast abilities like Bestow Curse which, when cast at a certain level, it no longer requires concentration.

Some other options for up-casting spells:

Greater Areas of Effect - perfect for things like Phantasmal Force or Burning hands
"Expert" spells, which generate low-level spell slots - As in the Expert Divination feature.
Multiple options - for spells such as Ice Knife, you could choose to increase either side of the spell (piercing damage or cold damage)
Counterspell resistance
Sculpting - perhaps the area of effect changes when upcast, a cone becomes a line, a sphere becomes a wall, single target becomes spehere, et cetera
Differing speeds - When cast at Xth level or higher, this spell can be cast as a bonus action. Or Reaction, even, for things like Shield of Faith or the like
Diversity & Niche uses - Maximilian’s Earthen Grasp, for example, could be upcast to reach further up from the ground, potentially plucking things from the sky or acting as an elevator for the caster
Combo Potential - Maybe certain spells act differently if you have other spells prepared/known - for example, if you know the True Strike Cantrip, spell attacks on targets within 30 ft have advantage.

I'd also like to see some Down-cast-able spells. That is, higher level spells that "unlock" the ability to cast a lower version of themself for a lower spell slot. A Magic: The Gathering Example (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=426829) - This fairly deadly (in MtG standards) spell also gives the player the option to use less mana (their equivalent resource) for a dramatically reduced effect, plus some bonuses - for that one particularly, it makes it harder to counter, as it's cycled not cast, and it allows you to draw a card. Apply that logic to D&D spells, which you don't really learn spells you aren't already able to cast, and you have a wealth of possibilities. Power Word Kill, the 9th level spell that instantly kills any target with 100 or less hit points, also grants you the ability to cast it at 4th level, but only killing targets of 10 hit points or less (our apologies to the family of John Peters, you know, the Commoner). Forecast could be cast at 2nd level, giving the caster only advantage on Initiative rolls (and knowledge of the weather) for 8 hours.

Those all sound more like Metamagic options than effects for upcasting. IMO, upcasting represents forcing more energy through a given spell pattern than required. The pattern itself shouldn't significantly change. I would shy away from any upcasting homebrew that fundamentally changed the nature of the spell, because it means a lot more load on the DM. Not only does he have to track the regular versions but all the possible modifications as well. No thanks.

[Vogie]

Those all sound more like Metamagic options than effects for upcasting. IMO, upcasting represents forcing more energy through a given spell pattern than required. The pattern itself shouldn't significantly change. I would shy away from any upcasting homebrew that fundamentally changed the nature of the spell, because it means a lot more load on the DM. Not only does he have to track the regular versions but all the possible modifications as well. No thanks.

The problem is, it wouldn't work for metamagic... because it's literally the opposite concept.

The whole draw of metamagic is that there are effects that are universal that can be manipulated on almost all spells - thus, you wouldn't make a metamagic that just makes a spell harder to counter, because 90% of the time it'd be useless, but broken when it isn't. Using metamagic to remove concentration, as Bestow Curse does, would either be useless or broken, depending on the spell. Same with... just about any of the suggestions I made.

Having them built-in to the spells specifically allows you to specifically tailor the spell to do what isn't broken. Shield of Faith as a reaction, isn't broken. Duration of 1 minute without concentration? Probably. Using an upcast Earthen Grasp to rise yourself in the air, also not broken, but impossible to transliterate into 99% of other spells (I'm looking at you, Bigby's Hand)

[PhoenixPhyre]

The problem is, it wouldn't work for metamagic... because it's literally the opposite concept.

The whole draw of metamagic is that there are effects that are universal that can be manipulated on almost all spells - thus, you wouldn't make a metamagic that just makes a spell harder to counter, because 90% of the time it'd be useless, but broken when it isn't. Using metamagic to remove concentration, as Bestow Curse does, would either be useless or broken, depending on the spell. Same with... just about any of the suggestions I made.

Having them built-in to the spells specifically allows you to specifically tailor the spell to do what isn't broken. Shield of Faith as a reaction, isn't broken. Duration of 1 minute without concentration? Probably. Using an upcast Earthen Grasp to rise yourself in the air, also not broken, but impossible to transliterate into 99% of other spells (I'm looking at you, Bigby's Hand)

But then you're stuck remembering all the intricacies of each spell from each slot, because there's not a nice formulaic way of doing this. That increases the complexity for everyone exponentially.

There are effects that are universally useful with little change in efficacy as we increase in level:
* +AC
* Advantage/Disadvantage
* +Speed
* Different movement modes
* Duration (most of the time)
* Most utility effects

These tend to either be hard to scale directly or just plain broken if scaled.

Then there are effects that need to scale to stay useful:
* Damage
* Duration (sometimes)

Spells in the second category (must scale) are also trivial to scale in a formulaic way. +NdM every spell level for damage. 1 minute -> 1 hour -> 8 hours -> 24 hours, no concentration

Some effects could go either way:
* Targets

These too are easy to calibrate scaling: +1 target / N spell levels

I stand firm in my conviction that upcasting a spell should not fundamentally change it. It shouldn't change the targeting parameters, blast shape, or impose advantage/disadvantage or any other such thing. That way lies the madness of 3e casting, where you have to remember a dozen different things for different spells.

Concentration in particular is something that must be carefully considered. It's the primary balancing mechanism for spell-casters in 5e. It's one of the 3 or 4 major things the DMG specifically warns against changing in the intro to the Dungeon Master's Toolbox chapter, along with attunement.