Ritual spells for levels 4 and 6-9.

[Aquillion]

There are no ritual spells at levels 4 or 7-9, and the one level 6 ritual spell for wizards (Drawmiji's Instant Summons) is mostly worthless.

Supposing we wanted to make the Ritual Caster feat more valuable at higher levels. What spells would you give the ritual tag to?

Some thoughts about possibilities...

Level 4
Arcane Eye: A bit powerful of a choice, and would perhaps make the spell unattractive to actually prepare as a wizard. Ten minutes vs. one action still matters, though, and players can often scout with familiars and the like anyway.

Control Water: I like the idea of taking a few concentration "

Banishment: Interesting because it's usually a combat spell, but could be used to banish something you've incapacitated but don't want to kill.

Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound: Used this way, it serves a very different purpose, but it'd still be fun.

Leomund’s Secret Chest: Most parties already have extradimensional storage space by around this point, so I don't see a huge problem in letting them access the chest for free by spending 10 minutes summoning it.

Level 6

Arcane Gate: I like the idea of some sort of ritual teleport. This is a good one - limited range, but can move the whole party. By the level where you get it, bypassing terrain issues with a ten-minute casting time isn't a big deal.

Investiture of Flame / Ice / Stone / Wind: These spells suck. But as a ritual, they're interesting. The concentration and short duration limits them, but it seems like the kind of minor benefits a non-caster with Ritual Casting should be able to get by this level.

Level 7:

Forcecage: This another "sufficiently different to be interesting" spell when cast via a ten-minute ritual.

Sequester: Given the hefty gp cost and narrow applicability of this spell, casting it as a ritual seems fine. Again, going to ten minutes means you can't use it to save someone in a fight.

Level 8:

Telepathy: Seems safe to use as a ritual at this level.

Level 9:

Gate: Given how powerful this spell used to be, giving it away "for free" seems weird - but honestly, it's the best choice for a level 9 ritual spell. It does provide unlimited free transportation, but at level 17 that's not a huge deal.

[Man_Over_Game]

You are forgetting about Divination, which is a level 4 Ritual spell.

I think limiting it to levels 1-5 is intentional, as that seems to be where the separation is between "Real Casters" and "Filthy Casuals".

Being able to duplicate many of the biggest spells of a Conjuration or Divination Wizard takes away a lot of the reason to invest into those subclasses.

Giving away high level Wizard spells should be as accessible as allowing people to gain the special familiar of Warlocks. Last time I suggested that, I got a lot of hate, and that's a level 3 Warlock benefit. You're talking about the equivalent of a level 15 + Wizard feature on top of an already-great feat.

[Luccan]

You are forgetting about Divination, which is a level 4 Ritual spell.

I think limiting it to levels 1-5 is intentional, as that seems to be where the separation is between "Real Casters" and "Filthy Casuals".

Being able to duplicate many of the biggest spells of a Conjuration or Divination Wizard takes away a lot of the reason to invest into those subclasses.

Giving away high level Wizard spells should be as accessible as allowing people to gain the special familiar of Warlocks. Last time I suggested that, I got a lot of hate, and that's a level 3 Warlock benefit. You're talking about the equivalent of a level 15 + Wizard feature on top of an already-great feat.

I agree with all this, except the bolded part. Any wizard can get those spells, so if that part were true, it would already make them not worth investing in. You invest in them for the benefits they provide your spells and for the unique abilities they give you (seriously, the Diviner's ability to basically decide a success or failure is huge). The "write these spells for half the money" feature doesn't seem to be that big of a draw. You wouldn't even get that anyway without the subclass, so never mind.

[OverLordOcelot]

Level 6+ spells are meant to be rarely cast, making anything in that level range 'at will as long as you spend 10 minutes' is hugely increasing the power of casters who can use it and significantly throws off game balance.

[Aquillion]

I mean, I get what you're saying, but I don't see how casting Telepathy or Sequester without a spell slot is going to unbalance a level 15 or 17 game.

[Rukelnikov]

There are no ritual spells at levels 4 or 7-9, and the one level 6 ritual spell for wizards (Drawmiji's Instant Summons) is mostly worthless.

How can Drawmij's Instant Summon be worthless?? IME losing a powerful item is far worse than death, wich only takes an hour and some spare change to fix.

[Unoriginal]

Have you considered giving access to Rituals that are not spell-based? Like, the ones the NPCs are said to use in various books?

[OverLordOcelot]

I mean, I get what you're saying, but I don't see how casting Telepathy or Sequester without a spell slot is going to unbalance a level 15 or 17 game.

You don't see how incredibly good being able to put as many people you want into indefinite suspended animation with real limit on how many might be absurdly good? Getting 1-2 a day a the cost of a slot is one thing, getting to put a dozen people into it in two hours is another. The material cost is either so prohibitive that you're not going to use the spell, or irrelevant as you're one of the 'eh, I have 50,000 gold in my couch cushions' campaigns. Similarly, you don't see how instantaneous communication with an arbitrary number of people on the same plane with no distance or resource expenditure and no duration limit might cause a problem? This is an absurdly good ability.

[Aquillion]

No, I really don't see how that causes a problem at level 15 or 17. A party at that level already has massive communication abilities, and it's rare to even need them in the first place.

Using Sequester on twelve willing people (taking two hours to do so, I guess) seems to me like an extremely situational thing to want to do. In the situation where you'd want to do so, it would be cool. It makes an extremely narrow spell somewhat more valuable, though of course you wouldn't be able to use it to save someone in combat. Outline for me the situation where you see this one breaking the game - not just a situation where it's useful, but where a 15th level party might reasonably stop the game and say "hold on, this is broken." Because I'm simply not seeing it.

[Angelalex242]

No, I really don't see how that causes a problem at level 15 or 17. A party at that level already has massive communication abilities, and it's rare to even need them in the first place.

Using Sequester on twelve willing people (taking two hours to do so, I guess) seems to me like an extremely situational thing to want to do. In the situation where you'd want to do so, it would be cool. It makes an extremely narrow spell somewhat more valuable, though of course you wouldn't be able to use it to save someone in combat. Outline for me the situation where you see this one breaking the game - not just a situation where it's useful, but where a 15th level party might reasonably stop the game and say "hold on, this is broken." Because I'm simply not seeing it.

I imagine it's due to unlimited access to long rests, regardless of where you might be.

Of course, that won't help you on a time crunch, but...

[Lunali]

Going with a different approach, you could add forbiddance to the wizard list as it feels to me like it should be there anyway.

[OverLordOcelot]

No, I really don't see how that causes a problem at level 15 or 17. A party at that level already has massive communication abilities, and it's rare to even need them in the first place. Outline for me the situation where you see this one breaking the game...

If you don't see it already, especially with regards to the 'talk to a bunch of people anywhere on the plane all day with no resources spent other than the cost of a trivial ring', no situation that I outline is going to be giving the players excessive power. Also I never made a claim that it would 'break the game' (which is an absurdly high bar that anyone will nitpick around if they want to), I said that it would unbalance the game, hugely increase the power of casters who get it, and "cause problems". Giving fighters an action surge that recharges every minute, or letting rogues dodge on their cunning action would similarly be unbalancing, but I wouldn't say that either would break the game.

[Aquillion]

I imagine it's due to unlimited access to long rests, regardless of where you might be.

Of course, that won't help you on a time crunch, but...I don't think Sequester grants rest benefits, since it puts the target in suspended animation.

(Of course, the point is fairly moot, since Magnificent Mansion already grants long rest benefits and the fact that it's not a ritual hardly matters because you'll get back the spell slot you used to cast it at the end of the long rest. For that matter, Tiny Hut allows safe long rest benefits and can be cast as a ritual starting at level 5.)


Also I never made a claim that it would 'break the game' (which is an absurdly high bar that anyone will nitpick around if they want to), I said that it would unbalance the game, hugely increase the power of casters who get it, and "cause problems".So back that up. How would it "hugely" increase the power of casters? Explain to me how, in a typical adventuring day (or even a typical story), ritual Sequester would make casters vastly more powerful. Walk me through the ways you see them using or abusing it in common circumstances.


Giving fighters an action surge that recharges every minute, or letting rogues dodge on their cunning action would similarly be unbalancing, but I wouldn't say that either would break the game.Those are not even remotely similar. Those changes would make a fighter or a rogue drastically more powerful in almost every encounter, in ways that constantly apply.

Again, if you feel that ritual Sequester would be similarly unbalancing, explain to me, in a typical adventuring day, what you're afraid the wizard or ritual caster will do with their ten-minute Sequester ritual that could grant them such incredible powers. Because from my perspective it looks incredibly situational - something that might come up once in an entire game, and which wouldn't even be that powerful in that particular situation (ie. it might solve a problem, once, in an entire campaign, but not one that was particularly unsolvable in the first place.)

Sequester just isn't a very strong spell to begin with. Is it possible you misread it? Because the way you're talking makes it sound like you think it can be used on unwilling targets or something along those lines. "Put someone into suspended animation" isn't really something that comes up hugely often in most campaigns, and "put a bunch of people into suspended animation relatively quickly, but not so quickly that you need to do it in one action each" is even more rare.

[Chronos]

Telepathy can already be cast as a ritual, but the drawback is that doing so makes it a 5th-level spell and it can be used on a whole group instead of just one creature. No, wait, those aren't drawbacks, they're the other thing.

Remind me again why anyone would ever use Telepathy instead of Rary's?

[Rukelnikov]

Telepathy can already be cast as a ritual, but the drawback is that doing so makes it a 5th-level spell and it can be used on a whole group instead of just one creature. No, wait, those aren't drawbacks, they're the other thing.

Remind me again why anyone would ever use Telepathy instead of Rary's?

Telepathy doesn't need the other person to be present, Rary's does. Besides that, there's the 1 hour duration vs 24 hs. But, yeah, Rary's will be equally good or better most of the time.