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Man_Over_Game
2019-04-05, 05:28 PM
With the advancement of technology, and the fact that most people have a tablet/computer/smartphone, would people have any interest in a TTRPG that required the use of an app?

Using something like DnD as an example, I've seen many instances where people wish that their Intelligence or Wisdom could contribute to their ability to react to attacks, or using Strength and Dexterity in tandem. We've accepted limitations in systems to keep things simple (like how a 5e Monk can deal high damage despite having the Strength of a toddler), but...we don't have to settle for it anymore in the modern age, anymore.


Say there was an action, like Calculated Strike. Used 40% of your Intelligence, 25% of your Dexterity, 25% of your Strength, and 10% of your Wisdom. A complex calculation like that would be nearly impossible to play with on paper, but would only take a couple minutes to put into an Excel sheet, and only a couple seconds to output the answer.

Effectively, I'm talking about a TTRPG, using video-game-like calculations, while keeping the narrative open-ended.

Would you think that was fun, or does it disgrace the TTRPG genre?

Friv
2019-04-05, 05:34 PM
I don't think it would disgrace the genre, but it runs the risk of ending up obsolete to a degree that pen & paper doesn't. The thing about those apps is that they have to be compatible with current software, which means that a few software upgrades could leave you without an app anymore, which in turn leaves you without a game.

Mastikator
2019-04-05, 06:00 PM
Although apps could be incredibly powerful tools, having your phone in your hand is too much of a temptation to not pay attention to the game and end up wasting everyone else's time (something I find disrespectful as heck).

So it's gonna be a "no" for me on the "use apps" question.

Wuzza
2019-04-05, 06:14 PM
Nope, if you cant easily see what your bonuses are, it's too complicated.

Phones are for talking. :P

Although this is coming from someone who used to call friends on house phones. (which were telephones connected to a house, where you thought your friend might be. :P)

Âmesang
2019-04-05, 06:16 PM
I've used "apps" before, but mainly to quicken things along; examples being a spreadsheet to keep track of equipment and general information (to prevent needless searching through books), or my "hordling generator" webpage since their shtick is that their appearance and abilities are intended to be randomly generated via a dozen or more tables — creating a page to randomize 'em in an instant is far more efficient.

Max_Killjoy
2019-04-05, 06:20 PM
No.

1) I don't even use aps. I find them obnoxious and invasive and largely the antithesis of privacy.

2) No ap would be flexible enough to handle all the out-of-the-box situations a GM needs to deal with... it would be more like a video game than a TTRPG.

Mechalich
2019-04-05, 06:31 PM
Digital software platforms for TTRPGs already exist, like roll20, though their history is rather mixed in terms of cost/benefit. That's sort of like a gaming ap, and electronic character sheets and dice rollers have existed for quite some time now.

In principle, yes, use of electronic tools for gaming calculations allows for more complex games to occur, but in practice the benefits of such things are marginal. The more complex the calculations your game system demands the more likely that various ad-hoc modifiers will screw things up and deliver a failure state were the players or GMs end up doing calculations by hand anyway. Automating game calculations actually works best for relatively simple games with a limited suite of modifiers like FATE compared to highly complex games with numerous constantly shifting modifiers like d20, as counter-intuitive as this may be. The only area in which electronic calculation is truly beneficial is when using systems with high levels of granularity - like those that use d100 roll-under (Eclipse Phase for example) - because this arithmetic is more difficult for the average gamer to conduct in a timely fashion. However, the consensus game design position is generally against such high-granularity systems anyway because there are almost never enough rolls in a given campaign to make the difference between a 30/100 and a 31/100 meaningful.

In general, if the high-complexity of cooperative video game combat appeals to you as a gaming experience, then you should do that and not play tabletop. It's not like there's any shortage of options.

Malak'ai
2019-04-05, 06:54 PM
The only thing I can really think of for D&D that would be a huge help to me and my players (can't speak for everyone) would be a digital database of the most to date printing of spells, feats and class abilities (from all books) that doesn't require going to a 3rd party website that keeps getting taken down every few months.

And basically the same for the Fantasy Flight 40K RPGs. Traits, Talents, weapon properties and psychic powers.

It would cut down so much time on flipping through the books and trying to find what you're looking for, especially if there's been an errata for that spell/ability/ect or an updated version form another book.

Telok
2019-04-05, 07:14 PM
I wrote a probability calculator for Dungeons the Dragoning, and I have a base complete (not all variants built) one for... something else that someone asked about probabilities for. I've done other calculators for other games where their options got too complicated to compare or the outcomes varied non-intuitively based on different assumptions. Plus a very expanded Perils of the Warp setup that does some nice sub-calculation and has five weighted tables of effects.

They aren't phone apps, although they would be pretty easy to convert because you just have to put a gui on them. I do use a very small tablet computer I got as old surplus off a relative. Mostly it's just for speeding up the rolling I have to do as GM, although I did the Perils coding when I got tired of only having ~30 outcomes and a player who think lol-random potential TPK side effects are fun.

Interestingly in several years of doing these I've noticed that simpler rolling schemes tend to have more fiddly modifiers and options, or practically no options.

I think my biggest issue with an app requiring game would be the phone OS updates and app loading methods. I've had... annoying... experiences when Apple updated a mobile OS and we had to refactor a commercial app with a 10 day deadline and also discovered that the company's app store permissions had expired and the development environment had a manditory update that was incompatable with something else we needed on the development computers. It was... annoying...

geppetto
2019-04-05, 08:50 PM
I use a few apps now but I wouldnt want a game thats dependent on them.

Except for a map. If it had a simple, fast, DIY map tool that could talk to everyones app so that the whole group is looking at the same map on their personal device at the same time. Doesnt need to be fancy, could be just like the square gridded tactical turn based RPG's that you see sometimes.

Thats a game I would play. I wouldnt replace my tabletop game night with it, but I would play both.

Âmesang
2019-04-05, 10:23 PM
Oh, that reminds me… my TI-86 has some variables stored in it, such as average dice amounts ("d4" = 2.5, "d6" = 3.5, &c.), as well as the weight of certain metals per cubic foot and the "modern" value of gold, silver, and platinum pieces (the values are presently outdated, and I'm not sure if I included one for copper pieces). :smalltongue:

Lunali
2019-04-05, 11:22 PM
My current D&D group uses digital character sheets for all of our characters, more convenient for a lot of things though occasionally you need a minute to figure out where they've hidden some bit of information.

As for the distraction of people playing on their phones, that's more of a problem with the person than with the tech you're using. The only person at our table that occasionally stops paying attention is the one that brings a book along, mostly because we were getting a little bogged down with shopping early on.

Psyren
2019-04-06, 01:57 AM
"Requires" an app - not really.

But "is greatly enhanced by an app" - yeah, absolutely I'd be down for that. You could argue that we're already there for several games as well.

jayem
2019-04-06, 02:26 AM
"Requires" an app - not really.

But "is greatly enhanced by an app" - yeah, absolutely I'd be down for that. You could argue that we're already there for several games as well.

Similarly. Particularly I wouldn't like the "requires an app" to be the requirement. Also most apps just do things webpages do, and don't really give anything for the closer access, using a spreadsheet, webpage would be preferred.
A reputable place could possibly do an app that tied a lot of things together nicely in a flexible way though...

Kaptin Keen
2019-04-06, 02:36 AM
There’s a better reason to keep things simple.

See, even with the simple systems we already have, people will spend hours beyond mortal ken on calculating their builds, and what they will be able to do.

And even with all the work put into it, there are still misunderstandings and discussions - this forum exists for that reason.

Make it more complex, and you multiply that. That’s not to be desired.

Lorsa
2019-04-06, 03:47 AM
A TTRPG that requires the use of an App? The answer is simply: no.

I really like to limit the use of technology during my RPG times. The only thing I really use it for is to play music and occasionally show pdf documents when I lack the physical copy. Less is more in my opinion.

Rynjin
2019-04-06, 03:52 AM
No.

1) I don't even use aps. I find them obnoxious and invasive and largely the antithesis of privacy.


One wonders what kind of arcane sorcery you used to post this then, since all web browsers are apps.

Knaight
2019-04-06, 04:46 AM
No. I like the design limitations imposed by having calculations done by actual humans; it generally prevents designers from getting too excessively convoluted (Phoenix Command aside). All this would do is enable a bunch of fiddly design that fundamentally detracts from the strengths of tabletop RPGs in favor of leaning on the strengths of video games. Poorly.

Max_Killjoy
2019-04-06, 09:15 AM
One wonders what kind of arcane sorcery you used to post this then, since all web browsers are apps.

I used software, installed on a computer, where I have control over how it works and what it has access to and what it's allowed to send out to the world. I don't have to jailbreak my desktop to gain even the most basic control over these things.

Don't confuse that with a phone app doing its damnedest to mine through everything on your phone and share it with the highest bidder.

Rynjin
2019-04-06, 10:53 AM
I used software, installed on a computer, where I have control over how it works and what it has access to and what it's allowed to send out to the world.

Yeah, an app. Or computer application if you want to use extra syllables.


Don't confuse that with a phone app doing its damnedest to mine through everything on your phone and share it with the highest bidder.

You must hate search engines too.

Your information's already ****ed by virtue of you being on the internet (and using a bank/credit/debit, among a million other things), worrying about mobile apps to such a degree at that point is like buying a safe to store all your stuff that's already been stolen.

Jay R
2019-04-06, 10:56 AM
There is no way to evaluate using apps in general, just like you can't evaluate "watching a TV show" in general. Some might be great, others terrible, and we'd never agree on most of them.

I routinely use apps today that sounded like really poor ideas when I first heard about them. Let your phone decide which direction to turn? Give me a break.

I won't evaluate a game until I play it, or a show until I watch it. For the same good reasons, I won't evaluate an app until somebody designs it and I get a chance to use it.

Max_Killjoy
2019-04-06, 10:58 AM
Yeah, an app. Or computer application if you want to use extra syllables.


Software, or program.

Don't conflate that with the Apple or Google store garbage of "aps".




You must hate search engines too.

Your information's already ****ed by virtue of you being on the internet (and using a bank/credit/debit, among a million other things), worrying about mobile apps to such a degree at that point is like buying a safe to store all your stuff that's already been stolen.


What you're really saying here is that you assume everyone else is are careless as you are, and hasn't ever taken steps to restrict the flow of that information.

Some of us have never had social media accounts, never use our real names online, block tracking via multiple methods, block all non-whitelisted scripts and redirects, don't let websites save any personal information, actually research before installing or using something, etc, etc, etc, etc.

Rynjin
2019-04-06, 11:32 AM
And what I'm saying is you can do that all you want and you're only slowing the trickle at best. If you've ever made a purchase or payment online, the damage is done. If you have ever made a Google search, that info is stored. Have you ever had a bank account, applied for a credit card, or taken out a loan? Have you ever been paid in anything other than cash? That information is already compromised. It's stored online and readily available to anyone that wants it bad enough.

As careful as you think you are, your information is already out there in bits and pieces.

Phone apps are no more or less compromised than PC apps. If you own Microsoft Word your info is able to be sold as well.

I'd also be wary of calling people "careless" for having social media accounts or downloading apps known to sell info. It's unavoidable in some cases for work or other legitimate reasons; I have to use Skype and Slack for work, and was required to make and use a Twitter account for a college class, for examples.

Mastikator
2019-04-06, 11:41 AM
Software, or program.

Don't conflate that with the Apple or Google store garbage of "aps".




What you're really saying here is that you assume everyone else is are careless as you are, and hasn't ever taken steps to restrict the flow of that information.

Some of us have never had social media accounts, never use our real names online, block tracking via multiple methods, block all non-whitelisted scripts and redirects, don't let websites save any personal information, actually research before installing or using something, etc, etc, etc, etc.
Apps are software too, it's short for "application", it's called that because it's applied on top of the OS APIs which all software does (that isn't itself OS or machine code). I don't mean to be nitpicky but it really is all the same, apps on your phone, apps on your computer, apps in your refrigerator, apps in your electric toothbrush, apps in your car.

Max_Killjoy
2019-04-06, 11:47 AM
Apps are software too, it's short for "application", it's called that because it's applied on top of the OS APIs which all software does (that isn't itself OS or machine code). I don't mean to be nitpicky but it really is all the same, apps on your phone, apps on your computer, apps in your refrigerator, apps in your electric toothbrush, apps in your car.

Yes, I get where "aps" as a word comes from.

Just because people applied "apps" retroactively to software for actual computers because they started using that word for little plugin crap for phones and such, doesn't mean I'm going to let my own vocabulary get sloppy.

When the day comes that I can't get a car without a "connection" and "smart system" built in, I'll figure out what to hit with a hammer to wreck them. But then, I'm the guy who pulled the fuse from his car's "remote services" module, and always has the "give away my location" setting in his phone turned to "no".




I'd also be wary of calling people "careless" for having social media accounts or downloading apps known to sell info. It's unavoidable in some cases for work or other legitimate reasons; I have to use Skype and Slack for work, and was required to make and use a Twitter account for a college class, for examples.


Whereas I refused to install Skype or get a LinkedIn account when it was a hot thing at work... basically told the IT guy who was kept trying to set them up to stop wasting my time, and that no, I wouldn't do it myself either.

There are a lot of steps that people can and do take to mitigate the flow of information and protect their privacy to a large degree... but because those steps aren't 100% perfect, you've decided to buy into a false dichotomy and assume that they're all worthless and pointless. Just because there's a little information out there in bits and pieces doesn't mean I should just let random "aps" or websites look over my shoulder at everything I do and profile me and target ads at me and so on.

2D8HP
2019-04-06, 01:21 PM
With the advancement of technology, and the fact that most people have a tablet/computer/smartphone, would people have any interest in a TTRPG that required the use of an app?....


Not likely as the "smartphone" I use (for example) to post to this Forum is issued to me by my employer so I'm not free to add "Apps" (which I've never done), besides (as someone said upthread) "Tech" gets obsolete too fast for my tastes.
Besides "novelty" is RPG's doesn't appeal to me, my five favorite RPG "rule systems" are:


Post Greyhawk supplement TSR D&D which thanks to "retro-clones" has been in use since '75.

"5e" WD&D, which has elements that have been in D&D since 1974

Chaosium's "BRP" which has been in use since RuneQuest in 1978, and one setting that uses it (Call of Cthullu) has been in-print since 1981.

King Arthur Pendragon which I saw again on my FLGS' s shelf again last night and has rules that are much the same as the glorious 1985 rules which were based a lot on "BRP" (except a d20 instead of a d100).

Really the only way an "App" based RPG would appeal is if I had no other opportunities to play.

DeTess
2019-04-06, 01:34 PM
I wouldn't want to play something that requires an app, but I would never say no to a functional electronic character sheet and easy reference guide for spells/equipment/whatever other minutiae that often come up in game.

Floret
2019-04-06, 02:07 PM
I mean, I use apps to play RPGs. 5 Rings Dice app notwithstanding (I don't actually have it, though I can see its use. But it exists as an example of "Apps for RPGs") I do actually use a tablet as my main Gming tool, regulating music, notes and PdFs of books to look through (search functions and hyperlinks are great. A good pdf is a work of art.). And all of that easily portable wherever I should GM?

I don't think I could go back to physical notes if I wanted to. It's so much more convenient.

On the other hand, I am unsure what an app designed to enhance the game could do much. I don't play with battlemaps, though if you do the idea earlier this thread sounds great; I like physical dice way too much to ever consider relying only on digital ones. If something could do automatic battle sound responses to the players dice rolls, maybe? Like making roaring sounds of pain for different creatures automatically, or fading over the music based on how the fight is going? But I suppose that would require digital dice.

2D8HP
2019-04-06, 02:28 PM
And what I'm saying is you can do that all you want and you're only slowing the trickle at best. If you've ever made a purchase or payment online, the damage is done....


I bought a book published by U.S.C. that I needed for work "on-line" and within a week I got a call from the credit card company asking if I'd been buying things in New York or Dubai (both places I've never been).

I'm very hesitant to ever buy anything from on-line and one of the many vexations of modernity is going to remaining 'brick and mortar' shops and being told "We don't carry that anymore because we can't compete"!

flond
2019-04-06, 03:28 PM
Not likely as the "smartphone" I use (for example) to post to this Forum is issued to me by my employer so I'm not free to add "Apps" (which I've never done), besides (as someone said upthread) "Tech" gets obsolete too fast for my tastes.
Besides "novelty" is RPG's doesn't appeal to me, my five favorite RPG "rule systems" are:


Post Greyhawk supplement TSR D&D which thanks to "retro-clones" has been in use since '75.

"5e" WD&D, which has elements that have been in D&D since 1974

Chaosium's "BRP" which has been in use since RuneQuest in 1978, and one setting that uses it (Call of Cthullu) has been in-print since 1981.

King Arthur Pendragon which I saw again on my FLGS' s shelf again last night and has rules that are much the same as the glorious 1985 rules which were based a lot on "BRP" (except a d20 instead of a d100).

Really the only way an "App" based RPG would appeal is if I had no other opportunities to play.

I mean admittedly, something that did all your Book of the Manor/Estate tracking and rolls for you would actually be a pretty solid app Re:Pendragon. :P

Potato_Priest
2019-04-06, 04:09 PM
Great Question, Man Over Game. It's a really fascinating one to consider.

I'm going to disagree with the majority opinion here and say that while I quite enjoy pen and paper tabletop rpgs as they are, that doesn't mean you couldn't make something fun by merging he video game and pen and paper genres.

There's lots of cool mechanics that you can implement using computers that are just far too cumbersome with dice due to the sheer number of rolls necessary.

However, I think that rather than enhancing existing systems with tech, to really take advantage of it one would need to build a new game that was, in fact, reliant upon it. Any game that's still playable without the technology would be too simple and limited to really take full advantage of the medium.

HouseRules
2019-04-06, 05:37 PM
The returning question is
"Due to evolving technology, would you like to see RPGs becoming MMORPGs?"

But has that already occurred?
Obviously, the answer is that technology removes the need to have a "Game Master" since "Published Settings" are "Official" and game rules enforced by software are balanced.

Zhorn
2019-04-06, 05:41 PM
As someone who got into table top rpgs as a way to unplug, I'm naturally adverse to making devices a mandatory aspect to play sessions.

Granted I do have my laptop off to the side to calculate XP with kobold fight club during combat, so maybe I'm being a hypocrite, through 95% of the session it's just sitting there in sleep mode. *shrug*

In part, I do see the value in having an app automate a lot of the sequences and calculations; but then it feels like:

Why use dice? might as well use a dice rolling program.
Why have physical maps and tokens? a VTT will be much easier.
Why all go to the one place? surely everyone can just skype in to the session from home.

I'm not trying to throw shade at anyone that plays over the internet. But that's just not for me. The big draw for me with D&D is the social aspect of going to a place with a group of people, turning our phones off, and just having a 4 hour session rolling dice and telling stories. And I feel the more that devices are involved, the more that is threatened.:smallfrown:

Imbalance
2019-04-06, 07:10 PM
I don't think it would disgrace the genre, but it runs the risk of ending up obsolete to a degree that pen & paper doesn't. The thing about those apps is that they have to be compatible with current software, which means that a few software upgrades could leave you without an app anymore, which in turn leaves you without a game.

This. I had such high hopes for Golem Arcana, but Apple killed its potential (along with cost) before it found an audience.

Telok
2019-04-06, 11:48 PM
So, interesting thought, take a simplistic system like d&d 5 and instead of ignoring or discarding the optional rules and add-on subsystems (realms, leadership, mass combat, trade, hex crawling, ships & airships, flying creature 3D combat, research & sages, etc.) move them to stand alone apps with a shared save-file structure focused on characters.

Since each app has the same save-file system, and that is based on the character, you can use a single character with different apps. Each app has it's own rules that are as complicated as they need to be, the computer is doing all the rolling. As long as the subsystem doesn't change anything on the base character sheet you can swap the character among games without worrying if they use a particular subsystem.

Pleh
2019-04-07, 08:54 AM
I'm in the "don't make it necessary to game, rather a powerful, but optional tool" group.

I mean, I kind of like the general idea of D&D Beyond. Let's argue the pros and cons of Beyond elsewhere, it's not the point right now. What I mean is that it's an optional reference with a freaking search engine built in. I haven't personally used it, but I've seen people using at least the computer version to create characters (it looks like the phone app is only a reader, not an editor, but this thread is about speculation anyway).

It looks close to something I'd like to have for most any RPG: a reference (for rules, npc stats, and spells) with a search engine and offline access plus a form fillable character sheet that calculates stats.

Maybe add a character appearance generator (that pastes generic assets onto a template so you can easily create unique appearances by tweaking permutations).

While you're here, add a few random generators for loot, NPCs (names, personalities, and/or stats), and dungeon/battle maps.

At some point, an app can only do so much and we will have to do the rest by hand, but this much is probably easier to have the pocket computer handle for us so we spend more time being creative and less time fussing over minutia.

SirBellias
2019-04-07, 10:41 AM
As a lot of people have said, if the game is dependent on the app it could get obsolete very quickly, which would suck with games on the time scale and replay-ability as TTRPG's.

That said, if there was a fairly complex system that had an app for consolidating information and making that system much easier to understand and navigate, I would be down for that. The pathfinder playtest was annoyingly complicated to understand until I got their app, for instance, and that pilots you through character creation and finding the relevant rules much better than the book. Now that I've made a few characters with the app, though, I can probably find what I need in the book and understand it better.

So yeah, if the game wasn't dependent on the app, but made it much easier to learn, I could be convinced.

Faily
2019-04-07, 10:58 AM
"Requires" an app - not really.

But "is greatly enhanced by an app" - yeah, absolutely I'd be down for that. You could argue that we're already there for several games as well.

This.

Apps that can help with the game is all good. Like the Masterwork Tools: Pathfinder app that lets you easily access the Pathfinder-books is great, as it lets you search up a spell, feat, class, etc easily without crawling through the books and trying to remember where it was ("was it in Ultimate Magic or in Advanced Player's Guide?"). Or like the French app I downloaded for Ars Magica that helps you calculate the level of a spell (Magnitude modified by range, duration, etc), which I found very useful since I'm very bad at math in general.

These and others are a great tool for enhancing the game experience, but are actually not needed for playing the game. They just make some things easier.

Now if a game requires an app to be played, then you're thinking "why not just actually make a videogame?" instead of trying to combine the two. The problems I foresee with a tabletop game requiring an app are also:
- Not all players have smartphones. Now, some of you might not believe it, but there are still people out there clinging to their old Nokias.
- Battery lifetime. Let's be real here, a lot of people who use smartphones recharge them daily, even when they're not really doing much with it (smartphone battery lifetime is atrocious in most cases). if a game-session last say 4-5 hours, you're going to have players fighting over the available outlets for recharging the batteries if using the app is required for a game.
- Not all smartphones run on the same operating system. If an app is required to play the game, then it needs to work on both Android and iPhones, *and* the weird outliers like the Microsoft smartphone (I know they exist but have yet to actually meet anyone using them). I don't foresee such an app having high requirements, but apps also require the phones to be somewhat up to date to be able to run the program (I couldn't run Pokemon GO on my old HTC phone).

Jay R
2019-04-07, 05:58 PM
Back in the early days of the automobile, people had lots of good reasons why the automobile could never replace the horse.

Gasoline is explosive and dangerous.
A horse can refuel just by walking over to a meadow and grazing.
You can wrap the reins around a saddle pommel and go to sleep, and the horse will still get you home.
A horse will shy away from danger, while a car will not.
A horse can go off the road almost as easily as on the road.
Etc.

All of these are true, and none of them mattered a bit. When cars were sufficiently convenient, people switched over to them.

When there are convenient enough apps, people will use them. One player at my table already uses a die-rolling app.

Max_Killjoy
2019-04-07, 06:50 PM
Back in the early days of the automobile, people had lots of good reasons why the automobile could never replace the horse.

Gasoline is explosive and dangerous.
A horse can refuel just by walking over to a meadow and grazing.
You can wrap the reins around a saddle pommel and go to sleep, and the horse will still get you home.
A horse will shy away from danger, while a car will not.
A horse can go off the road almost as easily as on the road.
Etc.

All of these are true, and none of them mattered a bit. When cars were sufficiently convenient, people switched over to them.

When there are convenient enough apps, people will use them. One player at my table already uses a die-rolling app.

And yet there are still situations in which a horse is better than a car.

Likewise, there are still situations where a book, pencil and paper, etc, are better than an app.


So far, I've not run into a single situation where an "app" was better than some other way of doing something. Not. One. Single. Instance.

Pleh
2019-04-07, 09:11 PM
And yet there are still situations in which a horse is better than a car.

Likewise, there are still situations where a book, pencil and paper, etc, are better than an app.


So far, I've not run into a single situation where an "app" was better than some other way of doing something. Not. One. Single. Instance.

Search engines on your reference books is way better than page turning. Can't do it with pencil and paper. You have to have some kind of application to run the engine.

Spreadsheets can be much better than paper character sheets for calculating PC stats and abilities.

Having a few situations where horses are better than cars doesn't mitigate that cars are much more commonly useful.

It seems less that apps are as minimally useful as you suggest and more that you don't want to use them. That's fine, but you're rather spectacularly undervaluing an app's benefit to automate the otherwise tedious bookkeeping found in most TTRPGs. For a lot of tables, that's incredibly valuable.

I mean, horses may be quite useful, but in my daily life, any horse I could have would be way more hindrance to manage than it would benefit. Ultimately, the usefulness of a companion app will be totally subjective to the group, which is why it's a great idea to have a few available, but not for them to ever become mandatory to the game.

Like horses and cars, let the market decide what works best for them.

Max_Killjoy
2019-04-07, 10:03 PM
Search engines on your reference books is way better than page turning. Can't do it with pencil and paper. You have to have some kind of application to run the engine.

Spreadsheets can be much better than paper character sheets for calculating PC stats and abilities.

Having a few situations where horses are better than cars doesn't mitigate that cars are much more commonly useful.

It seems less that apps are as minimally useful as you suggest and more that you don't want to use them. That's fine, but you're rather spectacularly undervaluing an app's benefit to automate the otherwise tedious bookkeeping found in most TTRPGs. For a lot of tables, that's incredibly valuable.

I mean, horses may be quite useful, but in my daily life, any horse I could have would be way more hindrance to manage than it would benefit. Ultimately, the usefulness of a companion app will be totally subjective to the group, which is why it's a great idea to have a few available, but not for them to ever become mandatory to the game.

Like horses and cars, let the market decide what works best for them.

First, let's stop confusing "apps" with actual full-function software . The phone-ification of the assumptions is tiresome and tedious.

Second, I've found very little utility in digital copies of gaming books beyond the fact that they tend to be cheaper and don't take up room if I'm just buying them for research purposes alone -- if I intend to use them, I want a physical copy, hands-down.

Third, the topic of this thread isn't just "automated" character sheets or character building software, which have some utility -- it's an RPG that requires the use of an "app" to engage in actually playing the game.

Telok
2019-04-08, 01:22 AM
Wild magic, wand of wonder results, peris of the warp. When faced with 'roll percentile, then roll some more numbers and only ever have 20 possible results' versus 'hit three buttons for over 300 possible results', well that's when technology is nice.

Really, if you have a table of random 'wild magic' type results that include things like "people within 1d6 * 10 feet are teleported 1d4 * 5 feet in a random direction", plus the occasional "roll twice" or "roll on the next table". Then it's quite nice not to have to roll three, four, or five numbers. Plus the automation make it easier to have a larger list of possible results.

Rynjin
2019-04-08, 01:24 AM
Whereas I refused to install Skype or get a LinkedIn account when it was a hot thing at work... basically told the IT guy who was kept trying to set them up to stop wasting my time, and that no, I wouldn't do it myself either.

So it was optional, then.

Without those, I don't get paid. I work freelance/contract from home so that's how I make meetings and do interviews.


There are a lot of steps that people can and do take to mitigate the flow of information and protect their privacy to a large degree... but because those steps aren't 100% perfect, you've decided to buy into a false dichotomy and assume that they're all worthless and pointless. Just because there's a little information out there in bits and pieces doesn't mean I should just let random "aps" or websites look over my shoulder at everything I do and profile me and target ads at me and so on.

I'm not saying protecting your privacy how you can is completely pointless. what I'm saying is you're completely barking up the wrong tree by being so paranoid about it that you refuse to download anything, and are blind enough to think there's a significant difference between downloading something on your phone and downloading something on your computer.

Unless you're operating through 7 proxies right now accessing this website leaves you more exposed than downloading any reputable app you can think of.


First, let's stop confusing "apps" with actual full-function software . The phone-ification of the assumptions is tiresome and tedious.

You are the only confused one here.

"App" has been used as shorthand for "application" since the 80's. It was popularized outside of dev circles by Apple, bu they by no means invented the term, and it has existed since before phone apps were ever a thing.


Second, I've found very little utility in digital copies of gaming books beyond the fact that they tend to be cheaper and don't take up room if I'm just buying them for research purposes alone -- if I intend to use them, I want a physical copy, hands-down.

Wanting the physical copy is a matter of personal taste; I still prefer to read physical books when I buy novels myself. It's more enjoyable.

I buy my RPGs books exclusively digital though. They're about 1/4 the price and I can access them easier across multiple computers. I game exclusively online as well though, so that makes the choice even easier.


Third, the topic of this thread isn't just "automated" character sheets or character building software, which have some utility -- it's an RPG that requires the use of an "app" to engage in actually playing the game.

You can read the OP that way (it does use the word "required"), but the specific kind of example given is more of something that is STREAMLINED by an app, but doesn't require one. It's simple math (and only needs to be done once in a while; just write down the totals), and abilities like that already exist in RPGs. The Final Fantasy d6 RPG that was, I think, developed on this site has a Samurai ability that's a lot like what's mentioned.

I think that's more what everyone is talking to; less a required app and more a hypothetical game that is designed with the assumption that the app will be used.

jayem
2019-04-08, 02:16 AM
So it was optional, then.
"App" has been used as shorthand for "application" since the 80's. It was popularized outside of dev circles by Apple, bu they by no means invented the term, and it has existed since before phone apps were ever a thing.

Although aware of the derivation, I also default to App as being referring to something phone like. The OP did explicitly refer to phones/tablets (at which point I definitely lock into one mode).

I do kind of like Androids (and Java's) security model but it then gets abused. So I don't get to enjoy it.

For me it depends as to whether they went "We need/want to make this hard calculation, We can make this hard calculation easier, rather than fudging it." or "We need an app, how can we stop people doing it by hand"

Lorsa
2019-04-08, 02:34 AM
Back in the early days of the automobile, people had lots of good reasons why the automobile could never replace the horse.

Gasoline is explosive and dangerous.
A horse can refuel just by walking over to a meadow and grazing.
You can wrap the reins around a saddle pommel and go to sleep, and the horse will still get you home.
A horse will shy away from danger, while a car will not.
A horse can go off the road almost as easily as on the road.
Etc.

All of these are true, and none of them mattered a bit. When cars were sufficiently convenient, people switched over to them.

When there are convenient enough apps, people will use them. One player at my table already uses a die-rolling app.

While this is all true, people who enjoy horseback riding as a hobby have continued doing that without switching to automobiles or mecha-horses or virtual pony riding or something such. IF your goal is to trigger specific type of emotions, new technology may not be the thing for you.

I mean, some people still do fencing, even though a firearm is clearly a superior weapon. :smallwink:

Malphegor
2019-04-08, 03:57 AM
I'd probably use a digital character sheet if it was easy to use and edit (my god there are no easy to fill in 3.5 sheets, I've found one but I need to print it out and write on it in pen because pdfs are awkward to write on and it doesn't let me fill in skills), but beyond that, meh. I feel paper and pen is good enough for a game, no need to add random tech into the mix unecessarily.

Edit- that said, I make extensive use of online reference tools more than books, so I don't know. I'm more likely to pull up a summoned monster's entry on the d20srd than ask my DM for the monster manual, so maybe apps and websites in particular are good?

Needs to be free though, and needs to be archived on archive.org. If it's a paid one, there's a big barrier to me using it even if it is like 20p.

Jay R
2019-04-08, 08:35 AM
And yet there are still situations in which a horse is better than a car.

Likewise, there are still situations where a book, pencil and paper, etc, are better than an app.

Well of course there are. But the question wasn't whether we should require every game to use an app. It was "...would people have any interest in a TTRPG that required the use of an app?"


So far, I've not run into a single situation where an "app" was better than some other way of doing something. Not. One. Single. Instance.

True.

There was once no single situation in which a phone GPS was better than a paper map. Not. One. Single. Instance.
There was once no single situation in which a car was better than a horse. Not. One. Single. Instance.
There was once no single situation in which an airplane was better than a train. Not. One. Single. Instance.

But suppose somebody designs an app that tracked every AC, weapon, and BAB. You chose an opponent, rolled a die, and typed in that number, and it told you if you hit instantly, without the DM having to check which opponent and which armor he was wearing.

Or suppose you cast an illusion in front of fifty goblins., and the app could roll all their individual saving throws instantly.

Or suppose one PC hit an opponent's square with a Grease spell, while another hit her with a Ray of Clumsiness. [A real example, from last Saturday's game.] Wouldn't it be convenient if her saving throw and AC were automatically adjusted?

What if number of arrows, charges on wands, and encumbrance were automatically tracked without having to do the bookkeeping?

Nobody's designed an app that can do this efficiently yet, but I will not evaluate an app before it's designed and I see it, just as I won't critique a movie until it's been written, filmed, and I've actually seen it.


While this is all true, people who enjoy horseback riding as a hobby have continued doing that without switching to automobiles or mecha-horses or virtual pony riding or something such. IF your goal is to trigger specific type of emotions, new technology may not be the thing for you.

Of course. But as I said, the question wasn't whether all games must be required to use the app, but whether there was any interest is a game that did. I can't imagine anybody who believed that every game would use it, just as I've played original D&D, AD&D1e, AD&D 2e, and D&D 3.5e in the last fifteen years.


I mean, some people still do fencing, even though a firearm is clearly a superior weapon. :smallwink:

Yup. I enjoy both, and enjoying one of them carries no hint that I, or others, wouldn't enjoy the other.

So let's drop the off-topic question of whether anything will replace paper and pencil for TTRPG, and get back to the thread topic: whether anybody might be interested in playing a TTRPG that required an app.

My answer remains the same. "I don't know. What app, and how well does it work?" I won't evaluate an app until somebody designs it.

Max_Killjoy
2019-04-08, 09:01 AM
Well of course there are. But the question wasn't whether we should require every game to use an app. It was "...would people have any interest in a TTRPG that required the use of an app?"


So we can't explain why, just answer "yes" or "no"?




True.

There was once no single situation in which a phone GPS was better than a paper map. Not. One. Single. Instance.
There was once no single situation in which a car was better than a horse. Not. One. Single. Instance.
There was once no single situation in which an airplane was better than a train. Not. One. Single. Instance.


You seem to believe that because things changed, things must inevitably change, when it comes to this sort of thing -- that because the car ended up better, the "app" must end up better.

Phone GPS, any GPS navigation for driving, is still largely garbage... consistently choosing the wrong route, ignoring construction and weather and other issues, etc.




But suppose somebody designs an app that tracked every AC, weapon, and BAB. You chose an opponent, rolled a die, and typed in that number, and it told you if you hit instantly, without the DM having to check which opponent and which armor he was wearing.

Or suppose you cast an illusion in front of fifty goblins., and the app could roll all their individual saving throws instantly.

Or suppose one PC hit an opponent's square with a Grease spell, while another hit her with a Ray of Clumsiness. [A real example, from last Saturday's game.] Wouldn't it be convenient if her saving throw and AC were automatically adjusted?

What if number of arrows, charges on wands, and encumbrance were automatically tracked without having to do the bookkeeping?

Nobody's designed an app that can do this efficiently yet, but I will not evaluate an app before it's designed and I see it, just as I won't critique a movie until it's been written, filmed, and I've actually seen it.


Sounds like pointlessly adding more garbage and failure points to the process.

But then, the companies that want to sell you stuff have been selling you stuff by tacking useless pointless added failure points onto working devices for a while now -- my "smart" phone wants to make my toast and run my life, and when I get a new car the first thing I'm going to have to do is disable all the "wow gee awesome connectivity 'features'" and get an after-market center dash without the damn video screen.

Lorsa
2019-04-08, 09:26 AM
So let's drop the off-topic question of whether anything will replace paper and pencil for TTRPG, and get back to the thread topic: whether anybody might be interested in playing a TTRPG that required an app.

My answer remains the same. "I don't know. What app, and how well does it work?" I won't evaluate an app until somebody designs it.

I thought debating off-topic issues was what this forum did best?

I don't dispute that some people will enjoy using apps in their TTRPG play. As you stated above, I can clearly see good uses for it. I think my objection came from that you seemed to frame the issue as using apps for TTRPGs was inevitable and no other future was possible.

One app that I would like to see would be one that automatically analyzes the current scene and changes music automatically to match the desired mood. The amount of machine learning required for that seems staggering though, but maybe on day... I do like my mood music.

Man_Over_Game
2019-04-08, 10:21 AM
Wow, I didn't think this would be so controversial!

Personally, I believe that history is full of people who rejected technology or change to maintain how things were, and with those people generally being WRONG. I think that using technology in everything is inevitable, but I'm interested in knowing if our culture has reached that point where it will be acceptable.

Judging by the general response, the answer is "No". But that has always been humanity's jerk response to technology, and I wonder if we (Nerd Culture) are any different.

Max_Killjoy
2019-04-08, 10:40 AM
Wow, I didn't think this would be so controversial!

Personally, I believe that history is full of people who rejected technology or change to maintain how things were, and with those people generally being WRONG. I think that using technology in everything is inevitable, but I'm interested in knowing if our culture has reached that point where it will be acceptable.

Judging by the general response, the answer is "No". But that has always been humanity's jerk response to technology, and I wonder if we (Nerd Culture) are any different.

I did computer support, repairs, upgrades, builds, and sales for a living for roughly 20 years. I take care of all my own "tech" needs.

My current job (going on 10 years) is still computer-intensive... and I'm the unofficial IT guy for our little group since the official "support" guy from corporate IT is one of those "restart it, reinstall it, replace it" idiots who couldn't actually diagnose a problem if his life depended on it... he convinced the executives to force everyone to get the same brand of work-issued smart phone so that he only had to "service" the one he likes... but oh man does he love to push the latest hottest Silicon Valley garbage at everyone every chance he gets. When I said I wasn't going to get an "app store" account he thought I meant I didn't know how, and was going to "helpfully" set one up for me until I told him I'd just delete it and report him to HR for sharing personal information outside the company without my permission.

I've been an early adopter when I thought the "tech" was worthwhile and there wasn't a silly price premium to do so.

So it's not like my skepticism toward "apps" and "let me handle that for you" phones, my complete distrust of social media, my total disdain for "connectivity" and the "internet of (useless) things", or my disgust at the "automate everything" evangelists from Silicon Valley, come from a position of ignorance. They come from experience.

Pleh
2019-04-08, 12:39 PM
First, let's stop confusing "apps" with actual full-function software . The phone-ification of the assumptions is tiresome and tedious.

Most software that is worth pairing to a tabletop will be compatible with whatever devices they have available. Should be something of a given at this point in technology.


Second, I've found very little utility in digital copies of gaming books beyond the fact that they tend to be cheaper and don't take up room if I'm just buying them for research purposes alone -- if I intend to use them, I want a physical copy, hands-down.

Fine, but this is still completely your subjective experience, not an objective quality of the topic at hand.

"Cool story, bro."


Third, the topic of this thread isn't just "automated" character sheets or character building software, which have some utility -- it's an RPG that requires the use of an "app" to engage in actually playing the game.

Sure, but the consensus for, "required to play" seems pretty strongly averse, conversation can well continue into ths merits of similar, but less mandatory, companion apps.

Man_Over_Game
2019-04-08, 12:57 PM
I did computer support, repairs, upgrades, builds, and sales for a living for roughly 20 years. I take care of all my own "tech" needs.

My current job (going on 10 years) is still computer-intensive... and I'm the unofficial IT guy for our little group since the official "support" guy from corporate IT is one of those "restart it, reinstall it, replace it" idiots who couldn't actually diagnose a problem if his life depended on it... he convinced the executives to force everyone to get the same brand of work-issued smart phone so that he only had to "service" the one he likes... but oh man does he love to push the latest hottest Silicon Valley garbage at everyone every chance he gets. When I said I wasn't going to get an "app store" account he thought I meant I didn't know how, and was going to "helpfully" set one up for me until I told him I'd just delete it and report him to HR for sharing personal information outside the company without my permission.

I've been an early adopter when I thought the "tech" was worthwhile and there wasn't a silly price premium to do so.

So it's not like my skepticism toward "apps" and "let me handle that for you" phones, my complete distrust of social media, my total disdain for "connectivity" and the "internet of (useless) things", or my disgust at the "automate everything" evangelists from Silicon Valley, come from a position of ignorance. They come from experience.

And I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying those things happened regardless. Facebook is popular, despite the number of people that hate it. What has happened in spite of your professional opinion, or the professional opinions of every other expert that came before you?

I don't think it's naïve to want to keep things the way they are, with paper and people. I do think it's naïve to assume that's how it's always going to be. Heck, I read most of my DnD stuff on the internet, not from a book. I don't even have a physical copy.

Can anyone honestly tell themselves that it's not going to happen? It might not be "right now", but I don't think the answer could be "not ever".

If it is going to happen, the next question is When.

Knaight
2019-04-08, 02:56 PM
Wild magic, wand of wonder results, peris of the warp. When faced with 'roll percentile, then roll some more numbers and only ever have 20 possible results' versus 'hit three buttons for over 300 possible results', well that's when technology is nice.

Really, if you have a table of random 'wild magic' type results that include things like "people within 1d6 * 10 feet are teleported 1d4 * 5 feet in a random direction", plus the occasional "roll twice" or "roll on the next table". Then it's quite nice not to have to roll three, four, or five numbers. Plus the automation make it easier to have a larger list of possible results.


Spreadsheets can be much better than paper character sheets for calculating PC stats and abilities.

It seems less that apps are as minimally useful as you suggest and more that you don't want to use them. That's fine, but you're rather spectacularly undervaluing an app's benefit to automate the otherwise tedious bookkeeping found in most TTRPGs. For a lot of tables, that's incredibly valuable


But suppose somebody designs an app that tracked every AC, weapon, and BAB. You chose an opponent, rolled a die, and typed in that number, and it told you if you hit instantly, without the DM having to check which opponent and which armor he was wearing.

Or suppose you cast an illusion in front of fifty goblins., and the app could roll all their individual saving throws instantly.

All of these nicely illustrate why my answer was a hard no. Every example here is of fiddly design that I just find annoying in RPGs and actively seek to avoid. An app would help with nested tables, sure - but I'd rather not deal with nested tables at all. The same applies to randomizers that need 3+ numbers to function, character creation systems that benefit from spreadsheets, and systems which handle group effects with fifty saving throws. As for the app that tracks the opponent stats you still need to either enter them all manually or pick from a curated list. Either way, not interested.

If apps become prevalent they will shape how RPGs are designed going forward. They'll bring computing power and enable computer game like designs. For some playstyles this will be a wonderful thing, but for me? That's throwing away everything I consider a strength to focus on RPGs weaknesses.

Max_Killjoy
2019-04-08, 03:11 PM
All of these nicely illustrate why my answer was a hard no. Every example here is of fiddly design that I just find annoying in RPGs and actively seek to avoid. An app would help with nested tables, sure - but I'd rather not deal with nested tables at all. The same applies to randomizers that need 3+ numbers to function, character creation systems that benefit from spreadsheets, and systems which handle group effects with fifty saving throws. As for the app that tracks the opponent stats you still need to either enter them all manually or pick from a curated list. Either way, not interested.

If apps become prevalent they will shape how RPGs are designed going forward. They'll bring computing power and enable computer game like designs. For some playstyles this will be a wonderful thing, but for me? That's throwing away everything I consider a strength to focus on RPGs weaknesses.

And we have a winner.

Just throwing tech at something doesn't make it better.

Ravens_cry
2019-04-08, 05:17 PM
A downloadable rule book that was designed with hyperlinks and cross references would make a nice app. I love physical books, but they are often cumbersome tools and weighty too. Digital dice rolling is nice when playing online with friends, either with voice or text chat. Tools like Roll20 are also useful in this regard. But, overall, dice (most of the time), rulebooks, either digital or physical, and a buttload of imagination are the tools that make up tabletop role playing games. Sure, there's been changes in play style and advances in understanding how to make more enjoyable experiences, but you can still pick up that Chainmail supplement by the name of Dungeons and Dragons and play it with your friends. You don't need special hardware or some software emulation, you can just . . . play. It will be a somewhat klunky experience by modern standards with a different relationship between the rest of the players and the person running it, but it's doable. That is a beautiful thing. Adding extra apps and stuff, it might be nice, but it's not needed.

Pleh
2019-04-09, 04:49 AM
All of these nicely illustrate why my answer was a hard no. Every example here is of fiddly design that I just find annoying in RPGs and actively seek to avoid. An app would help with nested tables, sure - but I'd rather not deal with nested tables at all. The same applies to randomizers that need 3+ numbers to function, character creation systems that benefit from spreadsheets, and systems which handle group effects with fifty saving throws. As for the app that tracks the opponent stats you still need to either enter them all manually or pick from a curated list. Either way, not interested.

If apps become prevalent they will shape how RPGs are designed going forward. They'll bring computing power and enable computer game like designs. For some playstyles this will be a wonderful thing, but for me? That's throwing away everything I consider a strength to focus on RPGs weaknesses.

Fiddly design? You mean mostly every RPG that actually offers mechanical character options of any kind? I'd think it preferable to have content worth buying in a rulebook rather than a mostly blank system that tells you that you can play however you want. I could already play however I want without paying for the rulebook. The mark of a great RPG is wanting to include all its complexity exactly as written rather than constantly adjusting it.

I mean, when you're this vague about your problems, it kind of opens you up to criticisms. Any system that tracks cumulative bonuses or penalties or a robust skill system could benefit from a spreadsheet character sheet. It doesn't take much to make it worthwhile and it tends to become only more worthwhile the deeper the complexity goes.

I tend to agree that any RPG that has you rolling 50 independent saving throws was probably not designed or at least run very well.

And your point about tracking NPC statblocks is unjustified in the limitations it places. A "curated list" could be a compilation monster manual from every source you own, listed in order (with a drop down menu to select arrangement criteria options, such as alphabetical vs CR) for manual searches, but aided by a search engine to help skip straight to something specific. There's no reason this system can't simultaneously include manual input for your custom monsters, which can then be found in your personal monster database. You could include an import feature so you could create custom variations of existing monsters.

Suffice it to say, the advantage of having companion apps is it compensates for the "fiddliness" of a game to make the experience more streamlined. If "fiddliness" is a problem to you, that's only more reason to look for companion apps, because they take that "fiddliness" off your plate by having a machine do as much of the tedium as it can.

A proper companion app makes the most fiddly games feel the same as a non fiddly game.

Themrys
2019-04-09, 07:41 AM
While this is all true, people who enjoy horseback riding as a hobby have continued doing that without switching to automobiles or mecha-horses or virtual pony riding or something such. IF your goal is to trigger specific type of emotions, new technology may not be the thing for you.

I mean, some people still do fencing, even though a firearm is clearly a superior weapon. :smallwink:

This.

And Pen&Paper is a hobby. Which I enjoy as is. The fact that one doesn't need apps for it is one of the advantages. I am not adverse to using computers to look up rules faster than in books, or to replace dice (which I tend to lose), but I like the fact that those are just options, not obligatory.

If I had a collection of rulebooks in my attic (sadly, I don't, but I could have) I could use those to play a game of D&D even thirty years after they were printed and without buying anything new.

Try that with a videogame. Try that with an app.

I like reliability, and since it is a hobby and not something that needs to make money, no one is forced to participate in "progress". No doubt lots of people who preferred horses had to switch to cars because everyone was driving cars. It is not so with hobbies.

Telok
2019-04-09, 10:37 AM
Well I have 30 year old video games and the original computer to run them on (which reminds me, I ought to get new floppies to backup stuff or find online copies), plus an original joystick that's still working perfectly. Seriously, I can still play the original Bards Tale, Wasteland, and Elite games just fine on the old anvil.

Personally I don't think the mass market for pocket computing is mature or cross compatible enough to support a serious and long term viable RPG game that requires an application. However I do see value in electronic assistant programs. Stuff like linked dictionaries of spells or monsters, and automation of rolling processes. By using uncompressed/unencrypted text files for data storage and a platform independent interpreted language like Java or Python you can ensure greater compatability and easier maintenence.

Serious question here: For those who despise 'fiddly mechanics' and 'complicated rolling', that means you essentially think that things like Pazio's Starfinder space combat or D&D wild mages are bad design and you ban them at your tables right?

Man_Over_Game
2019-04-09, 11:02 AM
Serious question here: For those who despise 'fiddly mechanics' and 'complicated rolling', that means you essentially think that things like Pazio's Starfinder space combat or D&D wild mages are bad design and you ban them at your tables right?

Personally, I think they're badly designed, yes. Every time you require a lookup, you're wasting time at the table. Spending 3 minutes to fix it might not seem like a big deal to you, but that's 3 minutes for every person at your table. Consider what would happen if every person at the table was a Wild Mage. It's the same problem, just amplified. Now, the DM can make an on-the-spot decision rather that having you do the lookup, but then he's circumventing the mechanic all together.

The solutions are either "Slow down the game", or "The mechanics don't matter", and neither are very good solutions.

Now, I don't ban them as options (I'm not a big fan of removing content), but it's a needless problem that could have been resolved with just a little better planning (like with a table at the back of the book).

Now, a more relevant, more problematic version of this issue is the Wild Shape options for 5e Moon Druids. A Moon Druid has to not only track every CR 0-3 beast and their individual monster stats (which include the 6 stats, the 6 potential saving throw proficiencies, skill proficiencies, AC, HP, special senses, special movements, multiple attacks with several having multiple special properties), but also has to keep track of what beasts they've seen to determine which ones are actually relevant. This is on top of the usual Druid spell slots, spells prepared, magic item uses, what equipment can be used while Wild Shaped per specific form, and any other resource they may have to track.

Now, this is in comparison to the Champion Fighter, who has to track their one use of Second Wind, their one use of Action Surge, and the fact that they critically hit when their dice rolls on a 19 or 20.

LordCdrMilitant
2019-04-09, 11:11 AM
No.

I like it here under my rock, and I don't want digital codecies, nor digital support material.

Max_Killjoy
2019-04-09, 02:10 PM
Speaking of games that require an "app" to play: https://uboottheboardgame.com/


When I was shopping for a stud finder so I could hang some things in my apartment, half of them in the stores actually required a smart phone with bluetooth, and you'd download the "app" and the finder would talk to the "app" and show this detailed analysis of what it thought it was finding behind the wall. :smallconfused::smallfurious::smallannoyed:


In both cases, what happens when the app can no longer be downloaded someday? The game becomes unplayable, and the stud finder becomes a paperweight. And unlike actual computer software, "apps" can't be downloaded and stored, in part because most phone OSes are set up to make it somewhere between hard and impossible to save downloaded installers, or install from a separate physical storage device.

Man_Over_Game
2019-04-09, 02:15 PM
Speaking of games that require an "app" to play: https://uboottheboardgame.com/


When I was shopping for a stud finder so I could hang some things in my apartment, half of them in the stores actually required a smart phone with bluetooth, and you'd download the "app" and the finder would talk to the "app" and show this detailed analysis of what it thought it was finding behind the wall. :smallconfused::smallfurious::smallannoyed:


In both cases, what happens when the app can no longer be downloaded someday? The game becomes unplayable, and the stud finder becomes a paperweight. And unlike actual computer software, "apps" can't be downloaded and stored, in part because most phone OSes are set up to make it somewhere between hard and impossible to save downloaded installers, or install from a separate physical storage device.

When you paid for an app that is no longer supported (say, after it's been running for 10 years), what happens? Do you get your money back? Does another version come out? Are you SOL because it just ran through its lifetime?

Max_Killjoy
2019-04-09, 02:19 PM
When you paid for an app that is no longer supported (say, after it's been running for 10 years), what happens? Do you get your money back? Does another version come out? Are you SOL because it just ran through its lifetime?

I'm pretty sure you're SOL, which is why both the game and the stud-finder are effectively examples of "intentional obsolescence".

Man_Over_Game
2019-04-09, 03:22 PM
I'm pretty sure you're SOL, which is why both the game and the stud-finder are effectively examples of "intentional obsolescence".

I guess my point is, it's as bad as any other app that becomes obsolete. Which isn't the end of the world, especially if the product is available on PC.

On a similar note, I have an old Rifts book. What are my chances of being able to use it again?

Max_Killjoy
2019-04-09, 03:29 PM
I guess my point is, it's as bad as any other app that becomes obsolete. Which isn't the end of the world, especially if the product is available on PC.

On a similar note, I have an old Rifts book. What are my chances of being able to use it again?

Higher than your odds of using, say, an old Firefox plugin from before Mozilla decided to unilaterally invalidate them all by fundamentally changing how plugins work in Firefox.

Man_Over_Game
2019-04-09, 04:26 PM
Higher than your odds of using, say, an old Firefox plugin from before Mozilla decided to unilaterally invalidate them all by fundamentally changing how plugins work in Firefox.

Maybe a Firefox plugin wouldn't be the most stable, but I get your point.

In the end, instability is the primary concern, and there's not a universal solution to that. There are programs/apps that work on all three major platforms (Android, Apple, Windows), but maintaining that probably costs the developers of those programs a decent amount of upkeep.

I do still think it's the future, but I'd probably estimate it closer to 5-10 years rather than in the next couple.

Max_Killjoy
2019-04-09, 04:37 PM
Maybe a Firefox plugin wouldn't be the most stable, but I get your point.

In the end, instability is the primary concern, and there's not a universal solution to that. There are programs/apps that work on all three major platforms (Android, Apple, Windows), but maintaining that probably costs the developers of those programs a decent amount of upkeep.

I do still think it's the future, but I'd probably estimate it closer to 5-10 years rather than in the next couple.

And as much as I hate it, that instability doesn't seem to give many people pause.

If Valve/Steam went under tomorrow, a lot of video gamers would lose access, but either they've accepted that risk, or they foolishly tell themselves "Steam isn't going anywhere". Various ebook and audio book vendors have engaged in toxic practices regarding retraction of access to purchased goods after the fact (another reason to not trust "we'll store it on the cloud for you" and "we get to update your stuff whether you want us to or not") and yet people still keep spending money with those companies.

2D8HP
2019-04-09, 05:53 PM
....in comparison to the Champion Fighter, who has to track their one use of Second Wind, their one use of Action Surge, and the fact that they critically hit when their dice rolls on a 19 or 20.


The "Champion" Fighter is one of the best classes left in D&D, which is why the DEMON HORDES trying to get that class "fixed" MUST BE FOUGHT BACK!!!

Pex
2019-04-09, 07:14 PM
Some of my games are played on Tabletop Simulator, and I love it. I still prefer in person play, but Tabletop is the next best thing. It has excellent props, and a player figured out how to port in our D&D Beyond character sheets which saves bandwidth. Tabletop has character sheets, but in addition to the extra bandwidth for the memory they are vulnerable to erasing what you don't want to erase.

Knaight
2019-04-09, 09:48 PM
Serious question here: For those who despise 'fiddly mechanics' and 'complicated rolling', that means you essentially think that things like Pazio's Starfinder space combat or D&D wild mages are bad design and you ban them at your tables right?

I don't have to ban elements of games I'm not willing to GM, so no. I just don't run Starfinder or D&D, period.

Florian
2019-04-10, 01:31 AM
Got a bit of a background in IT, ie. started building and selling personal computers, started coding in the first dot.com wave, got into network maintenance, server and router scripting after that crashed, moved to more serious programming (SAP) when I could afford to teach me those skills and exited that field to work in a business that is high in automation and digitalization. So I guess I don't really count amongst the "TechPhobes".

I think that the comparison to Horse vs. Car and pointing out Facebok and such is a bad one for this particular topic.

Take a look at computer/console games, as an example. You can basically take any of the old games I played as a kid on a Mega Drive or C64, or as a youth on my first 8086, add one of the current graphic engines and such, but it still wouldn't change the basic underlying game, because there hasn't been any progress in figuring out how to do that with regular programming and more and more computing power at your fingertips.

Even the best game can't beat the structure of one of the old "chose your own"-style books (I think there's a complete mapping for one of the old Lone Wolf books online) and that becomes readily apparent when it comes to something simple as a conversation.

So while I think that we can create some Apps that can help us ease the burden that comes along with playing a TTRPG, for example, dice rollers, good use of digital formats to deliver content, better avenues of communication to help those play that cannot find real tables, I think we are far, very far, away from using apps/tech in such a way that it could replace a GM, making the point of trying to shift there somewhat mood.

It´s not that we could calculate more complex variables, which is actually only interesting for the Sim crowd, it´s the ability of a GM to fine-adjust the game to the current situation. While yes, we could try to go as deep as simulating a real armed conflict, that wouldn't help s**t on the whole social core of the hobby, meaning that all participants must enjoy it, we have to constantly monitor "swingyness vs. challenge", (re)present NPC and the environment in some way and so on.

I would agree that we can do an "Near-RPG" like Descent or Arkham Horror just fine, but we could do a "Real RPG" only by reducing the options and freedoms, especially the communication and haggling between the participants, only by reducing the complexity level down to "Near" and then you have to ask yourself the question why you are still doing it.


Serious question here: For those who despise 'fiddly mechanics' and 'complicated rolling', that means you essentially think that things like Pazio's Starfinder space combat or D&D wild mages are bad design and you ban them at your tables right?

I think you are asking the question wrong.

If you like "task resolution" as part of the game, they are fine. If you prefer "conflict resolution" as part of the game, they are not.

An acquaintance of mine once said a very baffling thing to me: "I have more fun playing SWAT-style tactical combat using Fate Core than with any system that goes action by action". Took me some time to digest that, but it can actually be true.

Satinavian
2019-04-10, 02:01 AM
It´s not that we could calculate more complex variables, which is actually only interesting for the Sim crowd, it´s the ability of a GM to fine-adjust the game to the current situation. While yes, we could try to go as deep as simulating a real armed conflict, that wouldn't help s**t on the whole social core of the hobby, meaning that all participants must enjoy it, we have to constantly monitor "swingyness vs. challenge", (re)present NPC and the environment in some way and so on.As domeone from that "Sim crowd" i always appreciated the possibility to potentially have a computer calculate more complex rules on the fly. Theoretically you can have believable results without constant DM adjustment this way.

Practically, well... if you do use really complex rules that are easy to use because a computer does all the work, the result is still lacking. The rules might be easy to use, but they certainly are not easy to customize. If you want to change them and not brake everything, you still have to account for the underlying complex mechanics and do all that work.

As a result you get something that is hard to port to a different situation and difficult to fit onto a particular groups preferrence. That is bad for a basic rule element of an RPG.

I could see such apps for certain not central minigames. You could probably make a mass combat system that uses a computer instead of all those halfbaked "i am not really a wargame" things that are attached to too many games. Or for administrative downtime options that are handled pretty abstract anyway.


But most of the time app support is not that useful.

geppetto
2019-04-10, 02:13 AM
Speaking of games that require an "app" to play: https://uboottheboardgame.com/


When I was shopping for a stud finder so I could hang some things in my apartment, half of them in the stores actually required a smart phone with bluetooth, and you'd download the "app" and the finder would talk to the "app" and show this detailed analysis of what it thought it was finding behind the wall. :smallconfused::smallfurious::smallannoyed:


In both cases, what happens when the app can no longer be downloaded someday? The game becomes unplayable, and the stud finder becomes a paperweight. And unlike actual computer software, "apps" can't be downloaded and stored, in part because most phone OSes are set up to make it somewhere between hard and impossible to save downloaded installers, or install from a separate physical storage device.

what happens is you spend 10$ and buy a new one. Its not the skies raining fire dude.

Most of us buy new game stuff all the time anyway.

Glorthindel
2019-04-10, 05:18 AM
In general, no, but I have always considered that netrunning in cyberpunk games would be greatly enhanced by being able to hand it over to an app or computer programme, so the runner can play through a pre-programmed net run (set up by the DM, and maybe gated to limit how much can be done per round), while the DM handles what is happening out in the 'real world'.

Florian
2019-04-10, 06:12 AM
Practically, well....

Practically, there is still enough stuff that simple formulae can't cover because they are geared towards producing general results.

For example, if we wanted to include "magical magic", as in something that is explicitly outside of the normal physical laws, it won't work beyond GM interpretation.

I assume that you know the Pegasus edition of CoC. The magic as presented in Arcana Cthuliana is very different than the one that we know from D&D/PF/DSA, because its roots directly map on fiction, while the later map on war-gaming.

Hytheter
2019-04-10, 06:16 AM
The "Champion" Fighter is one of the best classes left in D&D, which is why the DEMON HORDES trying to get that class "fixed" MUST BE FOUGHT BACK!!!

I do feel that the champion has its place but I'm curious about why you feel it's one of the best classes.

Max_Killjoy
2019-04-10, 09:03 AM
what happens is you spend 10$ and buy a new one. Its not the skies raining fire dude.

Most of us buy new game stuff all the time anyway.

The app-dependent stud-finders were all a lot more than $10. And even if they were $10, that's not the point. The stud finder in my dad's toolbox is 30-some years old and still works, and will still work in another 30-some years -- it was never designed to be intentionally obsolete in a few years.

As for new game stuff, that doesn't change whether the old stuff can become unusable with a random OS or software update in six months.

Telok
2019-04-10, 10:39 AM
it was never designed to be intentionally obsolete in a few years.
Try not to attribute to malice what is prefectly explained by incompetence. Be ause generally there is more of the latter than the former.

As for new game stuff, that doesn't change whether the old stuff can become unusable with a random OS or software update in six months.
This is very true, and why I tend to advocate for platform independent software in cases like this. Javascript, although supremely annoying to program in, is quite good for this as it will run in any competent internet browser.

Jay R
2019-04-10, 11:09 AM
I am amazed at the number of people who are prepared to critique a product before it's designed, without knowing what it will do. Many apps I currently use I would never have expected to be useful.

I suspect that a truly useful app wouldn't be one that does something we already do, but handles something we don't do because it would be too much bookkeeping.

It might be nice to have an app that could handle followers, so bigger battles wouldn't bog down. Then great Fighters could actually become war leaders.

It might be possible to use low-level curses that the player doesn't know about.

Perhaps it could allow a PC to move from one game to another without losing things the player doesn't know about.

The wish on his sword he hasn't discovered.
The potion of delusion that he believes is a potion of flight.
The cursed item that only activates in the presence of an ogre mage.
The one-time +5 against poison that he didn't know he received.


I repeat: I won't evaluate a game until I play it, or a show until I watch it. For the same good reasons, I won't evaluate an app until somebody designs it and I get a chance to use it.

geppetto
2019-04-10, 11:25 AM
The app-dependent stud-finders were all a lot more than $10. And even if they were $10, that's not the point. The stud finder in my dad's toolbox is 30-some years old and still works, and will still work in another 30-some years -- it was never designed to be intentionally obsolete in a few years.

As for new game stuff, that doesn't change whether the old stuff can become unusable with a random OS or software update in six months.

****, you can tap on the wall with a glass pressed up against it and find studs if you want to be a caveman about it. You dont need a tool at all.

But if your going to buy a tool, you should buy the best one available for the job. Not whatever outdated hunk of crap is still going to be sitting around in a junk pile decades from now.

And the old books? They're effectively unusable too. Because nobody wants to play the old games. They want to play the new games. Your just feeding moths and gathering dust.

Unless society collapses mad max style the cloud isnt going anywhere. Electronic formats arent even the future anymore, they're the present. And if society does collapse well your going to have more important things to worry about then whether your stud finder app works and who your going to game with.

Max_Killjoy
2019-04-10, 11:44 AM
****, you can tap on the wall with a glass pressed up against it and find studs if you want to be a caveman about it. You dont need a tool at all.

But if your going to buy a tool, you should buy the best one available for the job. Not whatever outdated hunk of crap is still going to be sitting around in a junk pile decades from now.


Because of course the tool that worked for 30 years is a piece of junk just because it's old, and the "new hawtness" tool is "the best one" just because it's new. (Note how toolbox is now a "junk pile" because it doesn't contain the very latest ultra-cool extra-expensive tools.)

Whatever.

Rhedyn
2019-04-10, 11:58 AM
Anyone bring up how TheCrawler app makes DCC RPG really easy to play.

It can roll the weird dice and on all those tables you roll on. It makes the game playable for groups that don't have one book per person.

2D8HP
2019-04-10, 06:25 PM
I do feel that the champion has its place but I'm curious about why you feel it's one of the best classes.


The Champion is easier for a novice to just start playing without doing a bunch of homework first, there's less 'resource management' to keep track of, and for veterans of D&D it plays the most like the base class used to.

Friv
2019-04-10, 07:00 PM
At this risk of turning this into yet another fighter fight - the Champion is a great class from an ease of use perspective, and it is elegant. I agree with people that get frustrated that it is actually worse at its main job than the other Fighter subclasses, and that it could use a bit of a buff at the low levels, but any buff that you give it needs to be something that does not make it more complex.

LordCdrMilitant
2019-04-10, 09:08 PM
Because of course the tool that worked for 30 years is a piece of junk just because it's old, and the "new hawtness" tool is "the best one" just because it's new. (Note how toolbox is now a "junk pile" because it doesn't contain the very latest ultra-cool extra-expensive tools.)

Whatever.

I agree. All this focus on using your phone for this isn't good; and increases cost without any increase in effectiveness, convenience, or utility.

I hear people asking to move to digital codecies a lot; and that's like the last thing I'd want to see in this hobby. An important part of wargaming, and this hobby is that you put your damn phone away when we start playing the game. This is a social event with real people. Be social.

Hytheter
2019-04-10, 09:21 PM
I hear people asking to move to digital codecies a lot; and that's like the last thing I'd want to see in this hobby. An important part of wargaming, and this hobby is that you put your damn phone away when we start playing the game. This is a social event with real people. Be social.

I don't see how looking up a rule on your phone is any less social than looking it up in a rulebook. Either way you're looking down at words instead interacting, but at least on a phone you'll be done sooner.
Obviously someone who takes the chance to check their messages and browse reddit is being a little asocial but that's not inherent to the phone itself, and such a person would be likely to do so regardless of the digital tools at hand.


The Champion is easier for a novice to just start playing without doing a bunch of homework first, there's less 'resource management' to keep track of, and for veterans of D&D it plays the most like the base class used to.

Fair enough. That's basically the same reasons I consider Champion to have a place; I guess you just rate that place more highly than I do.

Florian
2019-04-11, 02:51 AM
I am amazed at the number of people who are prepared to critique a product before it's designed, without knowing what it will do.

I've worked for a while with one of the most complex and customizable pieces of software that exists, especially the part of custom-tailoring it the the customer.

To give that another angle, German tax law has the dubious honor of being the most complex system on earth, beating the complexity of any given RPG, by amount of laws, rules, rulings, tables, calculation and cases of "need human input" by a degree that is mind goggling. To add a bit of perspective to that, the whole output of D&D, from earliest creation to 5e, including all source books, FAQs and errata, whatever BS you can also find, will prolly make up 5% of it, not including the "Needs human input parts".

With a bit more than 30 years in the hobby and 25 years in IT, don't you think that I have thought up enough ways to use the one to support the other over time? Stuff like Might & Magic and Wizardry were there from the beginning, but we didn't solve the "need human input" thing.

Max_Killjoy
2019-04-11, 09:28 AM
I've worked for a while with one of the most complex and customizable pieces of software that exists, especially the part of custom-tailoring it the the customer.

To give that another angle, German tax law has the dubious honor of being the most complex system on earth, beating the complexity of any given RPG, by amount of laws, rules, rulings, tables, calculation and cases of "need human input" by a degree that is mind goggling. To add a bit of perspective to that, the whole output of D&D, from earliest creation to 5e, including all source books, FAQs and errata, whatever BS you can also find, will prolly make up 5% of it, not including the "Needs human input parts".

With a bit more than 30 years in the hobby and 25 years in IT, don't you think that I have thought up enough ways to use the one to support the other over time? Stuff like Might & Magic and Wizardry were there from the beginning, but we didn't solve the "need human input" thing.

30-some years of RPG experience, played and GMed and homebrewed and hacked a dozen systems, read and analyzed countless others. Almost 30 years experience working with computers -- hardware, OSes, software, the occasional random call to repair a pharmacy robot, etc.

The idea that we're all utterly unqualified to critique potential / hypothetical "apps" is... interesting, I guess. :smallconfused:

Max_Killjoy
2019-04-11, 09:31 AM
I agree. All this focus on using your phone for this isn't good; and increases cost without any increase in effectiveness, convenience, or utility.


Yeap.

The real reasons companies want to move to phone-connected, app-dependent tools like that stud finder:
1) it allows them to parasite the phone hardware to avoid putting full hardware in their own product, reducing cost, and then splitting the difference between lowered price and increased net margin
2) it allows them to gather data directly on who has purchased their product, by pulling data from the "app stores" on who has downloaded the "app", and then sell that data, push advertising of their own, etc.

~~~~

And on a more sinister note, here's a great example of why I reject "connectivity", "smart home", "internet of things", and "digital assistants" wholesale -- https://www.digitaltrends.com/home/amazon-reportedly-has-thousands-of-workers-listening-to-alexa-chats/... and social media -- https://www.cnet.com/news/facebook-is-still-tracking-you-after-you-deactivate-your-account/

Telok
2019-04-11, 10:22 AM
So is this mostly a rejection of electronic and software tools (like rollers, table lookups, random effect/treasure generators, mass combat simulation resolution), or is it more of hesitancy to use internet enabled apps from business entities that have a monetary interest beyond a 95 cent initial purchase of the software?

Because the impression I'm getting from all this is that it's internet related side activities (user and application sourced) and future compatability issues that people dislike. Compatability is solved by not using a language/os combination that gets abandoned in a few years (seriously, I work in a place where they've kept a .bat file around for near 20 years and are running it on Win10 machines because it automates a useful file renaming process). The internet issue is solved by just not having the application require a network connection and putting it on a tablet that has the networking turned off.

Rhedyn
2019-04-11, 10:47 AM
So is this mostly a rejection of electronic and software tools (like rollers, table lookups, random effect/treasure generators, mass combat simulation resolution), or is it more of hesitancy to use internet enabled apps from business entities that have a monetary interest beyond a 95 cent initial purchase of the software?

Because the impression I'm getting from all this is that it's internet related side activities (user and application sourced) and future compatability issues that people dislike. Compatability is solved by not using a language/os combination that gets abandoned in a few years (seriously, I work in a place where they've kept a .bat file around for near 20 years and are running it on Win10 machines because it automates a useful file renaming process). The internet issue is solved by just not having the application require a network connection and putting it on a tablet that has the networking turned off.
Or you don't have to worry about it because you have a book.

Or some fan made a free app.

No one is going to be able to monetize RPG players well with the standard microtransaction nonsense.

Psyren
2019-04-11, 12:27 PM
The app-dependent stud-finders were all a lot more than $10. And even if they were $10, that's not the point. The stud finder in my dad's toolbox is 30-some years old and still works, and will still work in another 30-some years -- it was never designed to be intentionally obsolete in a few years.

Your analogy doesn't quite work because you're comparing a purely utilitarian tool (stud finder) to something that is intended to attract, engage and entertain new audiences across generations (a game.) And even games that are truly timeless, like Chess, have had innovations in presentation to keep up with the times.



No one is going to be able to monetize RPG players well with the standard microtransaction nonsense.

I wouldn't say "no one" - Hero Lab uses microtransactions actually, because you can purchase game and book licenses individually.

Man_Over_Game
2019-04-11, 12:34 PM
Or you don't have to worry about it because you have a book.

Or some fan made a free app.

No one is going to be able to monetize RPG players well with the standard microtransaction nonsense.

Doesn't 5e allow you to purchase specific classes, spells, subclasses, feats, from their DnD Beyond stuff?

I think I could just buy all the individual parts I want, rather than paying for an entire book, and we're talking about the most successful RPG in the world.

LordCdrMilitant
2019-04-11, 01:49 PM
So is this mostly a rejection of electronic and software tools (like rollers, table lookups, random effect/treasure generators, mass combat simulation resolution), or is it more of hesitancy to use internet enabled apps from business entities that have a monetary interest beyond a 95 cent initial purchase of the software?

Because the impression I'm getting from all this is that it's internet related side activities (user and application sourced) and future compatability issues that people dislike. Compatability is solved by not using a language/os combination that gets abandoned in a few years (seriously, I work in a place where they've kept a .bat file around for near 20 years and are running it on Win10 machines because it automates a useful file renaming process). The internet issue is solved by just not having the application require a network connection and putting it on a tablet that has the networking turned off.

Most of the former, some of the latter. I try to minimize on-table tech requirement as much as possible. Books, dice, a side table if there's too many books.

Definitely die rollers are a no-go. I try to have all useful tables printed to hand out when they need them. I don't need a random treasure generator. As far as mass combat goes, it's much more fun to pull out a ton of miniatures and a pile of D6's, or a hexboard and tokens.

To be fair, I do keep my list of names on my laptop when GM'ing.

2D8HP
2019-04-11, 06:22 PM
So is this mostly a rejection of electronic and software tools (like rollers, table lookups, random effect/treasure generators, mass combat simulation resolution), or is it more of hesitancy to use internet enabled apps from business entities that have a monetary interest beyond a 95 cent initial purchase of the software?

Because the impression I'm getting from all this is that it's internet related side activities (user and application sourced) and future compatability issues that people dislike. Compatability is solved by not using a language/os combination that gets abandoned in a few years (seriously, I work in a place where they've kept a .bat file around for near 20 years and are running it on Win10 machines because it automates a useful file renaming process). The internet issue is solved by just not having the application require a network connection and putting it on a tablet that has the networking turned off.


Um...

....I don't even understand what you mean, much less how to do any of it, and I gave up counting how many of the terms you used in that post I'd have to research to understand your meaning after the fourth one

oxybe
2019-04-11, 09:10 PM
honestly? if someone comes up with an offline app/program/extension that has features I want? yeah I'll buy or download it.

most of it comes down to management.
-note taking
-searchable databases
-tabbed browsing
-bookmared locations, ect....

Open office kept personal notes and a spreadsheet for loot and item management. Something like Pathfinder's SRD and judicious use of tabs meant I didn't need to page flip to back and forth, or keep multiple bookmarks and constantly flip between them. The srd was also a searchable database, so if i couldn't find what i wanted on the index, the search was a good place to start.

at this point I had any and all information I wanted immediately at hand. It still requires brain input on my end to be of any use, but with everything there and ready for use I could put my focus on running the game.

If someone has a good all-in-one tool yeah, I prefer it to a bunch of books.

I can see why some companies would balk at offline stuff though.

WotC had a bit of a problem themselves in the early 4th ed days when it's offline character builder was hijacked and the data made available for free download on less reputable websites.

Now, stuff like random trait/item/dungeon/encounter generators? those I find useless, but mostly because I find those tables useless and a waste of page space to begin with. If they were required? yes I would want to automate them, but that would assume it's a game I would still want to play despite these mechanics I dislike.

As a side note: wild magic can go die in the fire it accidentally started. i hate the mechanic and the concept.

also a new lappy would be nice. my old one died and now I can't game with it:smallfrown:.

oxybe
2019-04-11, 09:33 PM
Um...

....I don't even understand what you mean, much less how to do any of it, and I gave up counting how many of the terms you used in that post I'd have to research to understand your meaning after the fourth one

From Telok's understanding most of the issues people have is with the online requirement and one of obsolescence. many tools require an online function, usually by making the program an interface that, rather then storing information on your computer, looks it up on a proprietary website/server. It is possible to make it so these things are saved on your drive, but... piracy is a thong, and many companies hate that.

As for obsolescence, some file types on computers have been around forever with no plan on stopping. .bat (called a batch file) files is an old extension still used today. speaking of batch files, another related example would be the Microsoft Notepad txt extension. It would require some planning, but simply put, having the program not require the use of software that may eventually be discontinued is an option, though many programs try to take advantage of new technology, for good or ill either to run graphics or programming behind the scenes. excluding these potentially obsolete programs will probably wind up with a very simple piece of software, but one that, like RPG books, could be considered evergreen.

2D8HP
2019-04-11, 11:53 PM
From Telok's understanding most of the issues people have is with the online requirement and one of obsolescence.....


Yes that is a problem, the other is lugging a full computer around isn't something I'd want to do, and the "Smartphone" I use isn't owned by me (it belongs to my employer) so "Apps" aren't allowed, and paying an additional subscription on top of what I already pay for Wi-Fi doesn't appeal to me.


....excluding these potentially obsolete programs will probably wind up with a very simple piece of software, but one that, like RPG books, could be considered evergreen.


Thanks.

Sounds like useful technology can be done that may be closer to book like longevity, if one is adept enough (which I decidedly am not, nor do I know anyone who is.

oxybe
2019-04-12, 06:41 AM
"a full computer" is a bit of an overstatement. A basic tablet or laptop/notebook is all you would really need for computing. for years I carried a cheap 200$ barebones laptop in my kitbag, and it eventually died when it's harddrive went kaput, but until then it was a workhorse held together by crazy glue and dreams. all it did was open pdfs, work simple text documents and spreadsheets, use java & html apps and surf the internet, but i got a ton of mileage from it.

I still had a proper gaming rig at home, but on the go? I didn't need all that excess power if all I was doing is surfing the net, sending resumes, reading a pdf or playing DnD. note that this laptop was about the size of a dnd rulebook and only slightly heavier. I had it setup so i could also transfer and update files on my google drive as backup.

Imbalance
2019-04-12, 06:41 AM
I mentioned it upthread, but Golem Arcana (http://golemarcana.com) really is the poster child for the nays in this discussion. By all accounts, the idea behind the game was brilliant, genius even, but the expensive entry point slowed initial interest and it ran headlong into iOS obsolescence within a year, never recovering, and was dropped from Google not long after. There have been homebrew efforts to keep the app available on other platforms or to even detach the game from its digital components (a bookkeeping nightmare), but the company that made it hasn't breathed a word or even acknowledged its existence in more than two years. This is exactly what nobody wants from an app-assisted rpg system, and a prime example of how quickly change happens.

Max_Killjoy
2019-04-12, 09:14 AM
I mentioned it upthread, but Golem Arcana (http://golemarcana.com) really is the poster child for the nays in this discussion. By all accounts, the idea behind the game was brilliant, genius even, but the expensive entry point slowed initial interest and it ran headlong into iOS obsolescence within a year, never recovering, and was dropped from Google not long after. There have been homebrew efforts to keep the app available on other platforms or to even detach the game from its digital components (a bookkeeping nightmare), but the company that made it hasn't breathed a word or even acknowledged its existence in more than two years. This is exactly what nobody wants from an app-assisted rpg system, and a prime example of how quickly change happens.

It's one of the big concerns.

I'm thinking HBS was too busy selling out to Paradox Interactive to bother maintaining the game.

Quertus
2019-04-12, 10:06 AM
So, based on In the Beginning was the Command Line, and Angry's Eight Aesthetics of RPGs, I'd have to argue that, just as cars will never have a drop-down "park reverse neutral drive 1 2 3 help" interface, a) some people will always want to roll dice, some people will always want to manually work through white-box mechanics, etc, where requiring their removal will be detrimental to many players' enjoyment of the game; b) there is a "personal" feel to an RPG, an interface investment that not only cannot be replaced without fundamentally changing what an RPG is, but which conditions players to not accept change. And this is on top of things like how RPGs invoke a physical world interaction, and shifting focus from the physical world presence will change the experience.

Actually, I'd like to ramble about focus for a bit. See, one might think that "maintaining focus" is a good thing. In some contexts, it is. However, modern conventional wisdom says that teachers should do exactly the opposite - engage the student at multiple levels, changing their engagement style throughout the lesson. I think that, as the world grows increasingly ADD, this will become more important across a broader swath of activities. That said, I think that variable physical input - minis, music, mood lighting, etc - will be more valuable than toggling between physical world and app for producing good gaming experiences.

What about culture? What role will culture changes play? This one is tricky to predict. RPGs becoming more mainstream actually makes this even more complex.

If gaming culture stops caring about things "lasting", and becomes a much more disposable society, then it will represent a vast (and, IMO, horrific) change to the culture. We're also moving in that direction, mind, with the shift from "a reason to get together with friends" to "no gaming is better than bad gaming" and prevalent online attitudes (even in the Playground) of knee-jerk "drop the problem player" with no attempt to diagnose and resolve the underlying problem(s). So gaming culture may shift to this uncaring disposable entertainment "RPG is the new ale & wenches" mindset, in which case a game that requires apps to play will no longer receive anywhere near the same pushback.

Alternately, there could be a major culture change surrounding apps, where people realize that Steam & GoG & the like represent a fulfillment of a fundamental aspect of humanity, planned obsolesce could be obsoleted alongside data mining becoming either accepted or illegal, and the objections in that direction would disappear, too.

Personally, I love the idea of allowing (but not requiring) apps for several classes of RPG needs. First, war gaming apps for "mass combat" rolls. Second, Table of Doom rolls. Third, "hidden information" / porting characters between tables.

All of these share some important similarities. Primarily, they require minimal data entry, and minimal interaction - they aren't faster to just get good and roll at the table, and they don't take you away from the table but for a click or two. Also, they're parts of the game that have value, but risk being ignored by virtue of the group feeling that their default interface is too cumbersome, and wanting to "streamline" the game.

I also love the idea of complex subsystems (like the 3e grappling rules) a) being optional, and b) coming with a free app.


Wow, I didn't think this would be so controversial!

Personally, I believe that history is full of people who rejected technology or change to maintain how things were, and with those people generally being WRONG, and I wonder if we (Nerd Culture) are any different.

Those who reject technology are also often RIGHT. Like those who feared that nuclear reactors could be unsafe, and the guy who added safety features to them (that were called his "folly").

We (Nerd Culture) are more likely to embrace technology; thus, when we reject technology, it's also more likely to be for the right reasons.


I do think it's naïve to assume that's how it's always going to be. Can anyone honestly tell themselves that it's not going to happen? It might not be "right now", but I don't think the answer could be "not ever".

How long until football gets replaced with robots? How long until the Olympics are conducted in VR?

Playing a videogame is not… well, it's not a lot of things, really. Keeping the same title on something that it isn't seems disingenuous.

Might we all already be "brains in jars" telling a physics engine what actions we take? Sure. But, if so, is that brain "running"?

I'm not sure the answer. Point is, how you define RPGs will determine whether what you have left after that changes will still be RPGs, or whether "cars" and "horses" are different beasts.


Consider what would happen if every person at the table was a Wild Mage.

Wow. Yes. Yes, please. That would be awesome! That would be Magical!


I am amazed at the number of people who are prepared to critique a product before it's designed, without knowing what it will do.

I repeat: I won't evaluate a game until I play it, or a show until I watch it. For the same good reasons, I won't evaluate an app until somebody designs it and I get a chance to use it.

I have a ritual to summon Cthulhu something. It requires me to sacrifice you. You're not going to critique my ritual or my sanity until after I've sacrificed you, are you?

Here, the cost isn't being paid by you, but by the game developers. It only makes sense that they'd want a window into the viability of their efforts before paying the price.

Now, are any of us omniscient? Do most of us have more hubris than actual full understanding of the nature of the evolution of gaming culture? Shrug. That's not the point. Point is, us 7 wise men are all feeling the elephant in the dark cave of future speculation, and it's up to the individual game developer to weigh their own hubris, and measure the risk of their vision of gaming, with as much insight as they can glean from these snake / tree / rope descriptions.

Pleh
2019-04-12, 12:50 PM
I mentioned it upthread, but Golem Arcana (http://golemarcana.com) really is the poster child for the nays in this discussion. By all accounts, the idea behind the game was brilliant, genius even, but the expensive entry point slowed initial interest and it ran headlong into iOS obsolescence within a year, never recovering, and was dropped from Google not long after. There have been homebrew efforts to keep the app available on other platforms or to even detach the game from its digital components (a bookkeeping nightmare), but the company that made it hasn't breathed a word or even acknowledged its existence in more than two years. This is exactly what nobody wants from an app-assisted rpg system, and a prime example of how quickly change happens.

To be fair, these aren't reasons not to do an app assisted TTRPG. These are pitfalls to avoid in making the next App Assisted TTRPG

Imbalance
2019-04-12, 01:20 PM
To be fair, these aren't reasons not to do an app assisted TTRPG. These are pitfalls to avoid in making the next App Assisted TTRPG

That is fair. It's just that the pitfalls may ultimately be unavoidable. Just ask a horse.

AMFV
2019-04-12, 05:04 PM
When I was shopping for a stud finder so I could hang some things in my apartment, half of them in the stores actually required a smart phone with bluetooth, and you'd download the "app" and the finder would talk to the "app" and show this detailed analysis of what it thought it was finding behind the wall. :smallconfused::smallfurious::smallannoyed:.

As a Carpenter, I can tell you that your dad's stud finder doesn't work that well at all. Definitely not in a wall with any kind of complexity. The thing is that there's a lot of situations where a purpose driven tool helps, and some where it makes it worse. In the case of this it's something that let's amateurs think they are doing things the way a professional does it. Which is basically the whole issue I would have with things that make things more convenient (like gaming apps) they don't always make things better, particularly if you actually know what's going on.

A person who designs an app for a game could make one that would do a lot of complex things easily, but it wouldn't explain why those complex things were being done or give a person who is playing the game an understanding of why things are the way they are, which is really necessary for good GMing. So I think an app could be useful, but I think that it could result in worse play as well. I would really have to see the app in question.

I have a lot of experience with dealing with amateur stuff, where not understanding the fundamental principles of a system (in this case construction) made a product much worse than it could have been otherwise. And I am very concerned that an app might have the same result, where people are just punching things into an app, and aren't able to handle the actual mental load of GMing.

Max_Killjoy
2019-04-12, 05:13 PM
As a Carpenter, I can tell you that your dad's stud finder doesn't work that well at all. Definitely not in a wall with any kind of complexity. The thing is that there's a lot of situations where a purpose driven tool helps, and some where it makes it worse. In the case of this it's something that let's amateurs think they are doing things the way a professional does it. Which is basically the whole issue I would have with things that make things more convenient (like gaming apps) they don't always make things better, particularly if you actually know what's going on.

A person who designs an app for a game could make one that would do a lot of complex things easily, but it wouldn't explain why those complex things were being done or give a person who is playing the game an understanding of why things are the way they are, which is really necessary for good GMing. So I think an app could be useful, but I think that it could result in worse play as well. I would really have to see the app in question.

I have a lot of experience with dealing with amateur stuff, where not understanding the fundamental principles of a system (in this case construction) made a product much worse than it could have been otherwise. And I am very concerned that an app might have the same result, where people are just punching things into an app, and aren't able to handle the actual mental load of GMing.

It seemed to work for him, but then he was for part of his professional life a carpenter, and (with some help) built the house I grew up in. I can do a pretty good job of "feeling out" what's inside a wall with a combination of old-school finder and some tapping. My bigger worry is accidentally hitting wires or pipes that are running in an odd place.

Telok
2019-04-12, 06:25 PM
Interesting.

Let me lay out where I'm coming from on all this. I currently run a game of Dungeons the Dragoning 40k 7th ed. v1.6, which is an over the top fan made mishmash of a number of games. The die system is a roll and keep, roll 1 to 10 d10s, explode on 10, keep a subset of the rolled dice. For a player who only tracks one character and only rolls two or thee checks in a row doing it all by hand is fine.

As DM it's my job to give the players situations that are fun and let them be awesome. We've successfully run 100 'person' combats in an hour (mook squad rules help a lot, and massed rocket launchers are fun), but I am absolutely using a dice roller with all possible rolls pre-built (there are less than 60 total possible rolls). So when I'm running the NPCs I'm not doing any math, literally I hit a button and get the result. Saves quite a bit of time.

Likewise it has a skill based "magic is dangerous" system with a table of random side effects and the option of "over-casting" which gives a stronger result but automatically triggers a roll on the side effect table. And it's a pretty good system. It supports dabblers, broad competency, and extreme specialization without making anything overpowered. It does "power at a cost/risk" nicely. I have one player who loves the magic system (and two who dabble) and will over-cast when the going gets sufficently rough. However the default side effects only has about 30 entries, and one is a (admittedly quite low) chance of no-save insta-death. Now after about 20 rolls for side effects you start seeing lots of repeats. So I wrote a fairly simple program and five tables of increasingly dangerous results (there's a modifier for how much a spell is over-cast by, with the default table it pretty much auto-kicks you up to the really dangerous effects at the max over-cast). It also does any sub-rolls, like ranges, "roll twice" results, and damage amounts.

So that went from "roll, check a table, maybe roll more" to "enter a number, hit enter". Plus it went from 30ish possibilities to almost 200. Again, faster and more fun for us.

Neither "app" uses any internet, depends on a particular OS, is affected by updates, or stops the game. Plus the game isn't available in print, pdf is the only option.

Imbalance
2019-04-13, 09:24 AM
To the other end of the complexity spectrum, there are those interactive shows on Netflix. I hadn't paid too much attention when the kids were into some kind of Minecraft video, but now there's this Bear Grilles version where he does his wilderness thing with his enthusiastic brand of near-DM narration, and I noticed these shows are more like choose-your-own-adventure stories in video form. This is nothing new, really (there were some heinous attempts on VHS), but it is to my youngest offspring, and I realized they're basically playing a watered down, on-rails rpg.

It's not an "app" per se, and not quite in the same vein as this discussion, but shows that different audiences are into different things. Even for their age group, the decisions are basic and the adventure brief (it doesn't look like there are consequences for "wrong" choices), but to me, it looks similar to some of the fun stuff I've been introducing to them. There is some educational merit, too, but I am compelled to temper their expectations between what they see BG doing and what we'll actually encounter outdoors (IRL, at least). It's not what I would choose for my gaming experience, but for them it's a step towards discovering their own tastes.

nippondata
2019-05-20, 02:56 AM
nice information .i think app uses has been common in this time every one is using the app because it,s give the user simple accessibility of any business product and services many companies are using mobile apps to sell their product online. and mobile app development services requirement is increasing day by day due to lot,s of mobile apps user in the country .

MrZJunior
2019-05-20, 12:56 PM
Serious question here: For those who despise 'fiddly mechanics' and 'complicated rolling', that means you essentially think that things like Pazio's Starfinder space combat or D&D wild mages are bad design and you ban them at your tables right?

I can't speak for other GMs but I was not even aware that these existed. I've never really been sure what "bad design" is, but I do know I don't like complexity in my games.

When we come to something confusing or complicated in the game I usually just make something up so we can keep playing.

SuperDave
2019-05-20, 02:41 PM
I'm personally opposed to all screens at the gaming table, especially for players, because phone/tablet use inevitably leads to checking Facebook and texting. Always. In 100% of cases. Those apps are designed to be addictive, and our soft little human brains are (for most of us) physiologically incapable of ignoring their summonses.

It's hard enough for the DM to referee a battle royale, keep the plot moving along at a decent clip towards a satisfying ending, make sure that no player feels neglected or unimportant to the story, make up voices and backstories on the spot, and tell a coherent and engaging story while doing it. The DM is getting up in front of all his closest friends and busting his butt to make this fun for everyone at the table; playing Fortnite or scrolling through your Twitter feed while he's trying to drop subtle-but-not-too-subtle clues about who was really behind the archduke's assassination is the height of disrespect towards not only the DM, but towards every other player at that table.

As one guy named Grant Howitt said in his excellent article 11 Ways To Be A Better Roleplayer (http://lookrobot.co.uk/2013/06/20/11-ways-to-be-a-better-roleplayer/):


SEVEN. Give the game your attention. If you can’t give your full attention, step away from the table.

Hey! What’s that you’re playing, on your phone there? Oh, is it Candy Crush Saga? That’s funny, all these dice and character sheets gave me the impression that we were playing Dungeons and ****ing Dragons, I must be terribly mistaken.

It is hard to think of a way to be more dismissive of someone’s game than playing a different game during it. If you find yourself getting so bored by what’s going on you’re resorting to playing a game on your phone, or reading a book, or checking Facebook, then step away from the game. You are draining the group with your very presence. I would rather have an empty chair than someone who wasn’t paying attention, because I don’t have to entertain an empty chair.

And of course, it’s up to the GM to offer an entertaining game. This is not one-sided. But going back to point one, act whenever you can. Give them something to work with. Unless you’re paying them money to do this, they are under no obligation to dance like a monkey for you just because they’re behind the screen.

I recognize that my players do sometimes receive urgent texts which they need to respond to quickly, but those kinds of messages are very rare. There are few things more disheartening than looking up from your carefully-ordered notes and realizing that every single person at the gaming table would rather read Facebook posts (which they could read at literally any other time) than engage with the story that you wrote specifically for them. Without pay, I might add. While they **** around and eat pizza. Your pizza. (https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/12/13/the-things-we-do-for-love)

JakOfAllTirades
2019-05-21, 05:15 AM
Although apps could be incredibly powerful tools, having your phone in your hand is too much of a temptation to not pay attention to the game and end up wasting everyone else's time (something I find disrespectful as heck).

So it's gonna be a "no" for me on the "use apps" question.

<shrug> Some people have enough discipline to pay attention to the game; some don't.

I use an app for my Warlock's spell book, and that's the only thing I use my phone for during the game. (Unless I need a calculator for loot or xp.) It beats the heck out of flipping through books or fumbling with spell cards.

MoiMagnus
2019-05-21, 05:27 AM
(Didn't read all the previous posts, sorry)


With the advancement of technology, and the fact that most people have a tablet/computer/smartphone, would people have any interest in a TTRPG that required the use of an app?

Yes. Few years ago, I was very dubious on this whole "boardgames requiring an app" thing. And then I've discovered Unlock (a cooperative puzzle games where simple puzzles are dealt trough cards, and complex puzzles area solved with the app), and Alchemist (a game where the app generate randomly the "rules of Alchemy" and you have to make experiment with them to understand the logic before the other players), and they are two of my favorites recent games.

So I am convinced there will have in the future RPG that find clever way to use an app, and will be very interesting. However, this does not mean all RPG will start using apps, and this does not mean that all RPG trying to use an app will make a good use of that app. In the end, if you're still playing pen&paper RPG today, you probably like manipulating real-life component, and you will probably prefer to play without an app when the app doesn't improve the game significantly.



Using something like DnD as an example, I've seen many instances where people wish that their Intelligence or Wisdom could contribute to their ability to react to attacks, or using Strength and Dexterity in tandem. We've accepted limitations in systems to keep things simple (like how a 5e Monk can deal high damage despite having the Strength of a toddler), but...we don't have to settle for it anymore in the modern age, anymore.


Say there was an action, like Calculated Strike. Used 40% of your Intelligence, 25% of your Dexterity, 25% of your Strength, and 10% of your Wisdom. A complex calculation like that would be nearly impossible to play with on paper, but would only take a couple minutes to put into an Excel sheet, and only a couple seconds to output the answer.

Effectively, I'm talking about a TTRPG, using video-game-like calculations, while keeping the narrative open-ended.

Nope. While I am part of the peoples that are frustrated by the ability system and the impossibility to use For and Dex in tandem, I don't think app are a solution to this.

Just look at RPG on computers, and you will remark that a vast majority of them use a very simple ability system, with weapons relying on a single ability, ...
Why? Because simplicity is not required because "complex systems are unpractical to compute". Simplicity is required because "complex systems are unpractical to think about".
Until cybernetic extension of our brain, we're still limited by the human mind.

And there is a general rule for complexity (for game design, world-building, story writing, ...):
The less the user/player/spectator/reader/... understand a thing, the less this thing should be used to solve problems, otherwise he/she feel cheated on or frustrated.
Things that are too complex to be understood should only be used for cosmetic (ex: an app that determine your appearance from your abilities, class, ...) or for creating problems (ex: an app that generate random encounters, critical failures, ...).



Would you think that was fun, or does it disgrace the TTRPG genre?

It will be some fun. But also a lot of failures and really bad RPGs trying to use apps in clumsy ways.

Something good we already see with online wikis, are apps as databases (for spells, feats, creatures, ...). I thing they will be more and more present.
I can totally see a RPG even requiring such an app, with thousands of spells, feats, ... (most of them automatically generated) and with options for the DM to disable full chunk of them according to the setting (and possibly have this list change as the PC travel trough the world).

Psyren
2019-05-21, 12:29 PM
I'm personally opposed to all screens at the gaming table, especially for players, because phone/tablet use inevitably leads to checking Facebook and texting. Always. In 100% of cases. Those apps are designed to be addictive, and our soft little human brains are (for most of us) physiologically incapable of ignoring their summonses.

It's hard enough for the DM to referee a battle royale, keep the plot moving along at a decent clip towards a satisfying ending, make sure that no player feels neglected or unimportant to the story, make up voices and backstories on the spot, and tell a coherent and engaging story while doing it. The DM is getting up in front of all his closest friends and busting his butt to make this fun for everyone at the table; playing Fortnite or scrolling through your Twitter feed while he's trying to drop subtle-but-not-too-subtle clues about who was really behind the archduke's assassination is the height of disrespect towards not only the DM, but towards every other player at that table.

I agree with this but I think there's a balance here. Yes the DM and game deserve attention, but it's the DM's job to then turn that attention into engagement. If you're doing an extended stealth sequence with the rogue and nobody else has anything to do, letting them take a break to check Facebook and recharge their batteries isn't the worst thing in the world. This is especially true if any of your players aren't neurotypical (e.g. ADHD) and could have trouble staying riveted for long periods of time when they aren't being directly involved in what's going on.

Pleh
2019-05-21, 12:51 PM
I agree with this but I think there's a balance here. Yes the DM and game deserve attention, but it's the DM's job to then turn that attention into engagement. If you're doing an extended stealth sequence with the rogue and nobody else has anything to do, letting them take a break to check Facebook and recharge their batteries isn't the worst thing in the world. This is especially true if any of your players aren't neurotypical (e.g. ADHD) and could have trouble staying riveted for long periods of time when they aren't being directly involved in what's going on.

There's also value in not taking things too personally. It's one thing to bring a doggy bag to a dinner someone made for you, but it's another to be upset that someone wants to put sauce on the steak you made for them.

It's important to not jump to conclusions about how engaged people are. Some people have an easier time listening in class if they're allowed to doodle or fidget with something (like ADHD, as Psyren noted).

Kami2awa
2019-05-21, 03:07 PM
Short answer, no. Long answer, nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooo.

2D8HP
2019-05-28, 10:52 PM
Well my son just broke yet another computer.

The one we got in the 90's lasted over a decade, but since?

We're lucky if we get four years out of them, and the computer games that entertained our now 14 year-old son are now "in-compatible" for use on the replacement computers for some arcane reasons so we can't have our almost 3 year-old son play them.

My rulebook from the '70's are still useable, and there's no way I'd buy an RPG for me that depends on the ephemeral technology that my son's video/computer games do.

I'm 50 years old and I expect to live another 20 to 25 years, any game that I buy for me to play has to last the rest of my life, and as far as I can tell computers are losing longevity rather than gaining it, so a hard no from me for "apps" until they're proven to last anywhere near long enough for my tastes.

GreatWyrmGold
2019-05-29, 02:15 AM
Re: OP: I like the idea of using apps to expand the available design space for RPGs. I do not, however, think that "let you use a weighted average of stats instead of just one or two stats" is a good way to do this.

One possibility would be to take a game with complex subsystems (like GURPS) and make an app that lets you simulate such subsystems with just a few clicks/taps. Or you could create a game with complex chargen/skill training/whatever rules and also an app which simplified their actual impact on play to the player inputting relevant information and making whatever choices were needed.
But this isn't using the tool to its fullest possible extent, now is it? It's just letting you do what plenty of TRPGs have already been doing, and doing it more smoothly. If you want to really push the envelope, you need to have a specific game mechanic in mind to suit a specific game you wanted to create. I want to see more TRPG devs experimenting with this sort of thing...but then, I want to see more experimental TRPGs in general. And also get my local gaming group to try a non-D&D game.

Psyren
2019-05-30, 03:10 PM
There's also value in not taking things too personally. It's one thing to bring a doggy bag to a dinner someone made for you, but it's another to be upset that someone wants to put sauce on the steak you made for them.

It's important to not jump to conclusions about how engaged people are. Some people have an easier time listening in class if they're allowed to doodle or fidget with something (like ADHD, as Psyren noted).

Spot on.

Now, switching gears to a related topic - we all have our opinions about computers at the table. What about computers that ARE the table? I'm thinking of playing D&D on stuff like the Microsoft Surface/PixelSense. The tech is still too new/expensive for most households but it fills me with excitement every time I think about it. The most recent video I could find is unfortunately from 2010 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n94E3IeBquY) but I have to hope people are still working on this - once the tech comes down in price anyway. (If not, this will be a long-term purchase for me!)

What do people think? Would you be okay with this kind of technology at the table?

Man_Over_Game
2019-05-30, 03:26 PM
Re: OP: I like the idea of using apps to expand the available design space for RPGs. I do not, however, think that "let you use a weighted average of stats instead of just one or two stats" is a good way to do this.

One possibility would be to take a game with complex subsystems (like GURPS) and make an app that lets you simulate such subsystems with just a few clicks/taps. Or you could create a game with complex chargen/skill training/whatever rules and also an app which simplified their actual impact on play to the player inputting relevant information and making whatever choices were needed.
But this isn't using the tool to its fullest possible extent, now is it? It's just letting you do what plenty of TRPGs have already been doing, and doing it more smoothly. If you want to really push the envelope, you need to have a specific game mechanic in mind to suit a specific game you wanted to create. I want to see more TRPG devs experimenting with this sort of thing...but then, I want to see more experimental TRPGs in general. And also get my local gaming group to try a non-D&D game.

These are my exact thoughts. I used the example of using multiple stats to show an easy example of something we've been having problems with for a while now. Older editions of DnD tried to mix in multiple stats by having some stats be required for wielding a weapon while others determined your damage with that weapon, or something similar. A LOT of systems try to create a sense that multiple stats work together by creating some sort of odd mechanic or requirement with some features, basically to justify "using" multiple stats but without having to actually "track" multiple stats.

But going beyond that...well, the sky's the limit. I'd prefer not to have to have the game be "dependent" on the app, in a way that you're dependent on a computer to play a video game. I want the majority of the gameplay to be done between the GM and the player, with the app just making things better.


For example, a "Rock, Paper, Scissors" style game, where you all provide your actions to each other at the same time, seeing only the results when the DM says so. You have to guess if the target is going for a parry, a feint, a dodge, or some other technique based on his habits and his style.

The question would then be....are you playing a video game, or a TTRPG? How do you use both aspects together, rather than apart?

[Edit] Just realized a solid candidate, from a recent thread on Initiative: Fluid Initiative. Heavy attacks make you slower, lighter attacks make you faster. The initiative is constantly changing, and is a massive hassle to track. That is, unless you happen to be using a programmed initiative tracker.

D+1
2019-05-31, 10:40 AM
Nope, if you cant easily see what your bonuses are, it's too complicated.
So much this.

Man_Over_Game
2019-05-31, 10:56 AM
So much this.

Well...why can't you?

If you're summing up values on a spreadsheet, is anything really all that complicated? Do you really need a calculator to do the math for you? No, it just makes it easier. Values do not need to be hidden, calculations don't even need to be that complex.

Using Initiative as a value, it'd be really frustrating trying to track 10 different units, with varying levels of speeds and light-heavy modifiers to their initiatives that change when and how often they can attack. Despite not having very complicated numbers, it'd be nearly impossible to play in a non-tech TTRPG.

But for a computer, that's just a TTRPG of FFX's turn system. Not at all that hard to track, use, while even providing estimates as to when your next turn might be.

LordEntrails
2019-05-31, 11:51 AM
Spot on.

Now, switching gears to a related topic - we all have our opinions about computers at the table. What about computers that ARE the table? I'm thinking of playing D&D on stuff like the Microsoft Surface/PixelSense. The tech is still too new/expensive for most households but it fills me with excitement every time I think about it. The most recent video I could find is unfortunately from 2010 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n94E3IeBquY) but I have to hope people are still working on this - once the tech comes down in price anyway. (If not, this will be a long-term purchase for me!)

What do people think? Would you be okay with this kind of technology at the table?
Digital game tables are not very expensive. If you have an older TV that has an HDMI port you can get a stick computer and wireless mouse and keyboard for $100 and run what you need with it. I've seen multiple designs of such tables for less than $500. Of course, it depends on you have some mediocre carpentry skills and computer skills, but not much more than imo anyone should be able to do.

GreatWyrmGold
2019-05-31, 03:19 PM
The question would then be....are you playing a video game, or a TTRPG? How do you use both aspects together, rather than apart?
Why worry about getting chocolate in your peanut butter?


[Edit] Just realized a solid candidate, from a recent thread on Initiative: Fluid Initiative. Heavy attacks make you slower, lighter attacks make you faster. The initiative is constantly changing, and is a massive hassle to track. That is, unless you happen to be using a programmed initiative tracker.
That would be a good use of an app. Another good use would be "subsystem" damage; it's obviously possible on pen and paper (given how many exist), but it's a lot easier if you can just click/tap a couple of menu options and see the appropriate body part go a bit redder, with appropriate stats automatically being lowered.
Heck, basically any system you saw in an old TRPG or GURPS sourcebook and thought "That sounds cool, but it's too much bookkeeping/on-the-fly math/whatever" could be simplified with an app. Computers are great at bookkeeping and math.



Nope, if you cant easily see what your bonuses are, it's too complicated.
I'd agree if there wasn't a plethora of VRPGs which give a wide variety of bonuses, enough that it's hard to see what your bonuses are at any moment, but still give players the feeling of meaningful choice despite the mechanical complexity. Once you get past character generation, all you need to worry about are your final bonuses, which could easily be output at the end of the spreadsheet or whatever.
Fun fact: I've been using an app to build all of my 5e characters. This has helped me to realize that there's not a lot of choice involved in 5e advancement, beyond class and archetype, which is kind of the opposite of what I'd want out of a game I need an app for. (Then again, the main reason I "need" the app in question is because I still play enough Pathfinder that I'm worried I'd screw something up with rules cross-contamination...) PF/3.5 isn't the best game for an app—too many weird class features and feats and whatnot with unique effects—but it would probably be a better game for one.



Digital game tables are not very expensive. If you have an older TV that has an HDMI port you can get a stick computer and wireless mouse and keyboard for $100 and run what you need with it. I've seen multiple designs of such tables for less than $500. Of course, it depends on you have some mediocre carpentry skills and computer skills, but not much more than imo anyone should be able to do.
It also depends on what your standard for "expensive" is. A modern video game console with a few games costs somewhere in that price range, but I'm not sure I've spent $500 on TRPG stuff in my entire life. (And I'm one of those weirdos who goes out of his way to buy legitimate PDFs.)