Healing magic harming undead

[HamsterKun]

In 5E, healing magic doesn't work on Undead or Constructs, period. I can understand the latter, but one of my players asked if I as the DM could make it a house rule that healing spells damage the Undead.

After thinking about it, I wanted to make it so that different types of Undead are affected differently by healing and Necrotic.

[nickl_2000]

This is what happened with old versions. Healing magic harmed undead. I don't see an issue with it in this version.

The only thing you shouldn't do is have necrotic damage heal undead. That would make necromancers heal thier minions on demand.

[Galithar]

Just remember that at high level undead would no longer be a viable enemy, unless given specific immunity to this effect.

5 Liches in one encounter? **** this is going to be a rough one. Wait...

Cleric casts Mass Heal Targeting each Lich evenly with their 700 pool of healing, encounter over!

Even at lower levels it can be quite powerful and makes Healing Spirit a phenomenal anti-undead spell.


I do think it's possible to implement, but just be mindful of what it will effect if you do it and try to get out ahead of potential issues. You could do Turn resistance/immunity also gives resistance/immunity to "healing damage"?


Edit: Now that I said it, is Turn Immunity a thing? Lol

[Teaguethebean]

Just remember that at high level undead would no longer be a viable enemy, unless given specific immunity to this effect.

5 Liches in one encounter? **** this is going to be a rough one. Wait...

Cleric casts Mass Heal Targeting each Lich evenly with their 700 pool of healing, encounter over!

Even at lower levels it can be quite powerful and makes Healing Spirit a phenomenal anti-undead spell.
But would it really sure mass heal is good but meteor swarm would do 140 dmg on average to everyone who fails there saves and especially saying that Healing spirit would be a good offensive tool is a lie because moon beam does 2d10 while healing spirit is a measly 1d6 and is larger to boot so personally I just don't think it breaks a well made encounter beside one in which a single strong undead is the enemy at lv17 or higher

[sithlordnergal]

Just remember that at high level undead would no longer be a viable enemy, unless given specific immunity to this effect.

5 Liches in one encounter? **** this is going to be a rough one. Wait...

Cleric casts Mass Heal Targeting each Lich evenly with their 700 pool of healing, encounter over!

Even at lower levels it can be quite powerful and makes Healing Spirit a phenomenal anti-undead spell.


I do think it's possible to implement, but just be mindful of what it will effect if you do it and try to get out ahead of potential issues. You could do Turn resistance/immunity also gives resistance/immunity to "healing damage"?


Edit: Now that I said it, is Turn Immunity a thing? Lol

Turn immunity is a thing...but Lich's aren't exactly a threat to begin with. Last time I fought one it died round 2. Though maybe that's just bias since I tend to play Oath of the Ancient Paladins...


EDIT: As for OP, I see no issue with adding it back, though I would make certain Necromancy spells heal undead. Its not that big of an issue, and can mitigate some healing damage. I would make the healing either give a saving throw or require an attack roll. I.E. Healing Word gives a Wisdom Save for half, where as Cure Wounds requires melee touch attack.

[Bjarkmundur]

Healing spells rreeeeaaaallllyyyy aren't balanced around dealing damage. I'd add some sort of a clause.


When used to target an undead this spell instead has the following effect if cast by a paladin or a cleric, or a divine subclass"

This allows you to hit the sweet spot of balance for each spell.

You don't even have to do this for every spell in the game, just those in your specific party.


Cure Wounds
Make a Ranged Spell Attack, on hit the target takes 4d6 Radiant Damage, +1d6 per spell slot level above 1st.


This makes it a worse guiding bolt, but adds versatility to the spell, so it's a net gain in power for the spell.

Some effects would have to be pretty minor, since spells like healing word can be cast as a bonus action and other spells being able to target a gigantic number of creatures.

[Galithar]

But would it really sure mass heal is good but meteor swarm would do 140 dmg on average to everyone who fails there saves and especially saying that Healing spirit would be a good offensive tool is a lie because moon beam does 2d10 while healing spirit is a measly 1d6 and is larger to boot so personally I just don't think it breaks a well made encounter beside one in which a single strong undead is the enemy at lv17 or higher

You must be unfamiliar with Healing Spirit optimization or not taking into account the boosts it can get from a life Cleric dip. The fact that it can be placed and, if the enemy is held in place, used without action. Or can easily damage a large number of enemies if placed in choke points, which is dependent on the terrain.
Additionally, without more changes the damage from a healing spell would just happen. So looking at things like this to realize that maybe you need an attack roll or saving throw attached is important. I'll take 1d6+4 repeatable without action and also healing myself 4 (I am aware moonbeam can do the no action repeat damage as well in addition to many other of the boons of healing Spirit. The issue is that healing Spirit still does what's written on the tin while it's doing this), that can also heal my allies, over 2d10 save for half any day.

Is it stupid powerful? No. Does it make the spell stronger then intended? Yes. So it warrants a look if making changes.

[HamsterKun]

Healing spells rreeeeaaaallllyyyy aren't balanced around dealing damage. I'd add some sort of a clause.


This allows you to hit the sweet spot of balance for each spell.

You don't even have to do this for every spell in the game, just those in your specific party.


This makes it a worse guiding bolt, but adds versatility to the spell, so it's a net gain in power for the spell.

Some effects would have to be pretty minor, since spells like healing word can be cast as a bonus action and other spells being able to target a gigantic number of creatures.

First of all, after thinking about it, I made it so the spell would only do damage (probably Radiant) upon the Undead failing a Constitution save. No save would utterly break Mass Heal. (P.S. Liches have a +10 bonus to CON saves AND Legendary Resistance)
Secondly, I thought about how different Undead react to healing:

Corporeal undead (i.e. zombies): Harmed by healing, healed by Necrotic
Spectral undead (i.e. ghosts, wraiths): Immune to both healing and Necrotic (both require a physical body in order to have effect)
Plague zombies (living beings infected by a zombie virus): Enough healing can cure them of the virus; Necrotic damages as normal (they’re technically not “undead”)
Mummies: Healed by healing, harmed by Necrotic (the embalming process grants some sort of pseudo-immortality)
Liches: Normally harmed by healing (albeit resistant) and healed by Necrotic, save for a few that master both life and death magic, in which case they’re healed by both

[redwizard007]

First of all, after thinking about it, I made it so the spell would only do damage (probably Radiant) upon the Undead failing a Constitution save. No save would utterly break Mass Heal. (P.S. Liches have a +10 bonus to CON saves AND Legendary Resistance)
Secondly, I thought about how different Undead react to healing:

Corporeal undead (i.e. zombies): Harmed by healing, healed by Necrotic
Spectral undead (i.e. ghosts, wraiths): Immune to both healing and Necrotic (both require a physical body in order to have effect)
Plague zombies (living beings infected by a zombie virus): Enough healing can cure them of the virus; Necrotic damages as normal (they’re technically not “undead”)
Mummies: Healed by healing, harmed by Necrotic (the embalming process grants some sort of pseudo-immortality)
Liches: Normally harmed by healing (albeit resistant) and healed by Necrotic, save for a few that master both life and death magic, in which case they’re healed by both

You play how you want to play, but from a DM or player perspective I would hate that level of complexity. It also ups the threat from Necromancers and increases the demand for clerics. Nostalgia has it's limits.

[Bjarkmundur]

You play how you want to play, but from a DM or player perspective I would hate that level of complexity. It also ups the threat from Necromancers and increases the demand for clerics. Nostalgia has it's limits.

I second that. Although the con save is a nice touch.

[Galithar]

You play how you want to play, but from a DM or player perspective I would hate that level of complexity. It also ups the threat from Necromancers and increases the demand for clerics. Nostalgia has it's limits.

It would be a bit much for some, but a lot of us like a little complexity (for me personally 3.5 is too complex, but 5e is too simple. I make it more to my liking by complexifying 5e rather then trying to simplify 3.5). Especially in a case like this where it's not a constantly relevant thing. It's something you would just put in each monsters stat block and only have to worry about it when that creature appears.

[Bjarkmundur]

It would be a bit much for some, but a lot of us like a little complexity (for me personally 3.5 is too complex, but 5e is too simple. I make it more to my liking by complexifying 5e rather then trying to simplify 3.5). Especially in a case like this where it's not a constantly relevant thing. It's something you would just put in each monsters stat block and only have to worry about it when that creature appears.

Do you like it as a DM or as a player?
In this discussion, player opinion trumps DM opinion, unlike most instances.

[Galithar]

Do you like it as a DM or as a player?
In this discussion, player opinion trumps DM opinion, unlike most instances.

Both. But I'm very aware that not everyone enjoys it that way. That's why I don't like 'that makes it too simple/complicated discussions' just because it's bad for Table doesn't mean it's bad. I'm not saying anyone here was implying that, it's perfectly valid to point out something is too 'needlessly' complicated for your liking.

[Arkhios]

I believe this is done because you prepare your spells so that you can cast any of them in any order you like, as long as you have slots for it.

[redwizard007]

It would be a bit much for some, but a lot of us like a little complexity (for me personally 3.5 is too complex, but 5e is too simple. I make it more to my liking by complexifying 5e rather then trying to simplify 3.5). Especially in a case like this where it's not a constantly relevant thing. It's something you would just put in each monsters stat block and only have to worry about it when that creature appears.

Making this a creature specific trait rather than a school of magic add on could have some appeal. I hadn't thought about it like that. I still think you would be overpowering Necromancers, but it wouldn't be game breaking.

[Galithar]

Making this a creature specific trait rather than a school of magic add on could have some appeal. I hadn't thought about it like that. I still think you would be overpowering Necromancers, but it wouldn't be game breaking.

It might, the thing you'd need to watch are spells that could heal/harm undead while doing the opposite to living creatures. Imagine Spirit Guardians healing your undead minions, in addition to the control and damage effects on enemies? Now a great choice spell becomes an OP as all get out option that makes Necromancers the hands down best option.

[Tetrasodium]

It's a 3.5ism. With that said, I'm in a 5e game with an undead heavy focus wherethe GM has it in place & it's kinda stupid

[farrenj]

I think rather than adding a new feature to every healing spell in the game I would create a new Cleric subclass that has as part of its level 1 feature "The Cleric may choose to target undead with their healing spells, inflicting radiant damage equal to the amount of health that would have been restored by the spell." It would probably be a subclass focused on hunting the undead, with the ability later on to ignore radiant resistance or immunity, or even the ability to inflict radiant vulnerability.