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Fish
2019-04-06, 12:28 PM
We know the Order of the Scribble had a falling out which caused each of them to protect a Gate as each saw fit. We know through interviews with the Giant that the nature of this argument is crucial to the unfolding of the plot (which is why we won't get any origin stories of the Scribble, as such). Therefore, it seems likely that the death of Kraagor is unlikely to be the (sole) source of that ultimate disagreement, because we already know of it.

If the death of Kraagor isn't the cause, or at least the only cause, then what was it? What caused each Scribbler to rely on his or her own talents? What caused Girard to become so paranoid? What caused Soon to build so secretive an order?

Sure, it could have been the Snarl — destruction of the world might cause that kind of paranoia and backbiting and fractious behavior. But we knew about the Snarl, too, so there's probably more to it.

I have a proposal.

It seems likely to me that Girard's paranoia arose when he (or the Order of the Scribble altogether) discovered/was told the Big Picture Stuff that Thor just revealed to Durkon: the actions of the gods have destroyed world after world after world; the gods are powerless to save this one; the Gates are all that stand between the Snarl and the destruction of everything. Girard must feel that he's literally the only thing in the world that prevents all that. Soon's gods are no use, as they're part of the problem; and if Soon obeys them, then he's part of the problem too, and Girard must guard against even his own allies. As we've seen with the Godsmoot, some mortals are so obedient to their gods, they'll support destruction of the planet.

This would make a good reveal, showing how the Scribblers fell out among themselves. It would explain a lot of their backstory. But why would we be told that? What use is it for us to know?

Because Durkon is about to reveal this same information to the Order. How will they react? How will the Order Stickiers' reaction be better than that of the Scribblers?

The old Vaarsuvius might have been drawn to ultimate power. The old Belkar might have been in favor of destroying the planet, just for the lulz. The old Haley might not have trusted anyone else to do it, like Girard. The old Elan would have hoped for a happy ending instead of working to bring it about.

CriticalFailure
2019-04-06, 12:47 PM
That’s a good point.

I was wondering if they encountered the world in the snarl in their time and Soon insisted on closing the gates rather than investigating or even gave the order to close the final rift instead of trying to get Krogaar out.

Peelee
2019-04-06, 12:57 PM
As far as solving the problem goes, how does the fact that they're on the nth planet rather than the second planet change their desire to stop Xykon? If anything, being told, "hey, there's definitely a way to fix this whole Gates-blown-rifts-now problem" would help. The big thing is going to be the world in the rift.

KorvinStarmast
2019-04-06, 01:02 PM
The big thing is going to be the world in the rift. That's where Serini is ... though that may or may not work based on Laurin's attempt to reach out to life forms on that world and come up with nothing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html) ...

Fish
2019-04-06, 01:03 PM
I don't know what you mean by "solving the problem." Since I don't know what the world-in-the-Rift means myself, I can't really predict how it will affect (or has affected) the story.

I do expect, however, that the Order of the Stick will not succumb to the same divisions that destroyed the Scribblers. Knowing that kind of Big Picture Stuff would be a test for anybody, but it seems to me they have grown up a little bit. It's their character growth that will keep them together, not some Maguffin.

Peelee
2019-04-06, 01:14 PM
I don't know what you mean by "solving the problem."

Well, the problem so far as we, the Order, and the gods know is "hey this big Snarl thing will get loose and destroy the world." Solving the problem would be "hey we found a way to stop this big Snarl thing from getting loose and destroying the world."

jwhouk
2019-04-06, 10:37 PM
That's where Serini is ... though that may or may not work based on Laurin's attempt to reach out to life forms on that world and come up with nothing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html) ...

No, she was about to sense something, but then the Snarl reared up and obliterated everyone near the rift.

It might be that Serini (and Kraagor?) is inside the rift, and the time spent there changed her?

NerdyKris
2019-04-07, 07:06 AM
Durkon has likely already told them the plan. They were resting for hours, it wouldn't make sense to keep key information from them.

The Dark One predates the Order of the Scribble. It's likely that they were also given the same information Durkon was. We know that Soon set out on hunting down the bearer of the Crimson Mantle and killing them. This crusade clearly went off the rails into genocide over time. The question is why weren't Sapphire Guard

Attempting to capture the Dark One's high priest instead of killing them. We know they didn't know the mantle was an artifact, but they clearly intended to kill the high priest, not talk to him.

I think there's a good chance the schism was caused by an argument over how to properly handle the gates vs tracking down and allying with the Dark One's high priest. It fits the schism being primarily between Girard and Soon. A multi racial ranger vs a pure blood aristocrat. Kraagor's death might be linked to the Dark One, and Soon blames them for his death while Girard blames something Soon did.

hroþila
2019-04-07, 07:11 AM
Durkon has likely already told them the plan. They were resting for hours, it wouldn't make sense to keep key information from them.
I disagree. That info is not immediately helpful in their current situation, and Durkon would be smart to keep it to himself until only the rest of the Order is around.

Manga Shoggoth
2019-04-07, 09:52 AM
No, she was about to sense something, but then the Snarl reared up and obliterated everyone near the rift.

It might be that Serini (and Kraagor?) is inside the rift, and the time spent there changed her?

If you look closely at her eyeballs in the last frame of the first page you can see the snarl reflected in them. I suspect that there was no life (within her detectable range, at least), and then the Snarl came into her range and she was reacting to that. The Snarl may even have been attracted by her probe.

Also, I'm not sure that everyone was obliterated - the next page looks to show Miron pulling her back, and it also looks like some of the guards are escaping as well.

I doubt that Serini is in the rift - she was outside when it was sealed, and went on to build Kraagor's tomb. Soon and Kraagor might be.

B. Dandelion
2019-04-07, 10:03 AM
I do definitely agree with the idea that the Order of the Stick are going to prevail because, unlike their predecessors, they won't succumb to infighting and mistrust.

But it's most likely that the Order of the Scribble had their falling-out over issues that we just don't know about yet. The mystery of the planet within the planet looms large over the story, and the Scribblers at the very least should have known of it.

I also tend to think that something specifically happened besides them just discovering upsetting things about the nature of reality.


If you look closely at her eyeballs in the last frame of the first page you can see the snarl reflected in them. I suspect that there was no life (within her detectable range, at least), and then the Snarl came into her range and she was reacting to that. The Snarl may even have been attracted by her probe.

Also, I'm not sure that everyone was obliterated - the next page looks to show Miron pulling her back, and it also looks like some of the guards are escaping as well.

That was how I read it. But if Laurin made direct mental contact with what is kind of an eldritch horror, she might never be the same even if she did survive...

CriticalFailure
2019-04-07, 11:48 AM
I agree something specifically happened. Probably involving closing the rifts with Kraagor inside and likely involving the unexpected presence of the world in the rift. I think one big question is when the world in the rifts came into existence. But it seems moderately likely that Kraagor ended up on the rift world and was abandoned. Or something. I don't know, the way Girard says it should've been Soon makes me think maybe the Kraagor tried to investigate or something and Soon insisted on closing the rifts rather than looking further. I wonder; there wasn't a world mentioned in the earliest accounts... Maybe the snarl saw the outside world through the rifts and rather than try to destroy it it watched and learned and started building its own world?

Another random snarl related question. Is there any difference in how the snarl interacts with an object that has been created or mended by or a person who has been healed by a cleric of The Dark One? Since it doesn't contain purple.

B. Dandelion
2019-04-07, 12:41 PM
The Dark One predates the Order of the Scribble. It's likely that they were also given the same information Durkon was. We know that Soon set out on hunting down the bearer of the Crimson Mantle and killing them. This crusade clearly went off the rails into genocide over time. The question is why weren't Sapphire Guard

Attempting to capture the Dark One's high priest instead of killing them. We know they didn't know the mantle was an artifact, but they clearly intended to kill the high priest, not talk to him.

I think there's a good chance the schism was caused by an argument over how to properly handle the gates vs tracking down and allying with the Dark One's high priest. It fits the schism being primarily between Girard and Soon. A multi racial ranger vs a pure blood aristocrat. Kraagor's death might be linked to the Dark One, and Soon blames them for his death while Girard blames something Soon did.

Shouldn't Lirian have paid the slightest bit of attention to Redcloak when he was her prisoner? Or did she somehow not know what she had?

CriticalFailure
2019-04-07, 12:44 PM
Shouldn't Lirian have paid the slightest bit of attention to Redcloak when he was her prisoner? Or did she somehow not know what she had?

It seems "ignored whatever nonsense the goblins are up to" is a longstanding trend that keeps coming back to bite those protecting the gates.

B. Dandelion
2019-04-07, 01:09 PM
If it's not clear, my point is that Lirian ignoring him should have been much less likely if the Scribblers had ever seriously contemplated working with the Dark One and his high priest. He should have been kind of a big deal if that had been the case, but he was obviously not deemed important in the slightest.

CriticalFailure
2019-04-07, 01:50 PM
If it's not clear, my point is that Lirian ignoring him should have been much less likely if the Scribblers had ever seriously contemplated working with the Dark One and his high priest. He should have been kind of a big deal if that had been the case, but he was obviously not deemed important in the slightest.

The impression I got was that no one actually looked into what the goblins were up to in much detail. They just saw the goblins were trying to take control of a gate and stopped them, they never looked into why or how it served their god's goals. Even the Sapphire Guard didn't bother to find out much about them and they had the most reason to out of everyone related to the order of the scribble given that there was some prophecy about a goblin with a red cloak destroying Azure City or whatever. They know that whatever the goblins want a gate for, it puts the fabric of reality at risk. But they don't know what they are actually trying to accomplish or what The Dark One's agenda is.

Goblin_Priest
2019-04-07, 02:21 PM
It's also pointed out that they had to defeat a bunch of lame cults and stuff to secure the rifts. They probably assumed the goblins' plot was no different than the rest.

B. Dandelion
2019-04-07, 02:38 PM
The impression I got was that no one actually looked into what the goblins were up to in much detail. They just saw the goblins were trying to take control of a gate and stopped them, they never looked into why or how it served their god's goals. Even the Sapphire Guard didn't bother to find out much about them and they had the most reason to out of everyone related to the order of the scribble given that there was some prophecy about a goblin with a red cloak destroying Azure City or whatever. They know that whatever the goblins want a gate for, it puts the fabric of reality at risk. But they don't know what they are actually trying to accomplish or what The Dark One's agenda is.

Just FYI, the goblin prophecy thing is a very popular bit of fanon, but it has no basis in anything that's been either in the online strip or any of the bonus materials.

Peelee
2019-04-07, 02:50 PM
If it's not clear, my point is that Lirian ignoring him should have been much less likely if the Scribblers had ever seriously contemplated working with the Dark One and his high priest. He should have been kind of a big deal if that had been the case, but he was obviously not deemed important in the slightest.
Do you have any reason to believe they had any idea who TDO was, or what his relevance was? All we know is Soon knew, but we don't know when he figured it out/was granted the knowledge.

Just FYI, the goblin prophecy thing is a very popular bit of fanon, but it has no basis in anything that's been either in the online strip or any of the bonus materials.
I never even heard of that. And I thought I was in the popular clubs.

CriticalFailure
2019-04-07, 02:56 PM
Just FYI, the goblin prophecy thing is a very popular bit of fanon, but it has no basis in anything that's been either in the online strip or any of the bonus materials.

Sorry I misremembered. Either way, the point about the order of the scribble not taking the goblins any more seriously than any other villains trying to seize the gates for whatever purpose and probably never did an in depth investigation on why they wanted them or how they planned to use them. All the Sapphire Guard seemed to know about them was that a goblin in a red cloak posed a threat to creation. And for a long time they didn't realize the Crimson Mantle itself was an important artifact. The other scribblers seemed to know the same amount or even less.

Lirian's actions just give more evidence of this. She didn't know that the Crimson Mantle was important, she just saw another goblin trying to screw with the gates.

I think Thor filling Durkon in on The Dark One trying to corrupt the gates was the first time anyone on team protect-the-gates has really gotten any insight into what's going on with the goblins and the gates.

As other people pointed out, the Scribble had to deal with a bunch of gate related villains and never saw a reason to give the goblins much thought. Given the status of goblins as xp fodder in universe and the ease with which the order of the scribble seemed to deal with previous bearers of the crimson mantle, it's likely they gave the goblins even less thought than the Holey Brotherhood and Baron Pineapple.

Kish
2019-04-07, 02:57 PM
I've only seen the "prophecy" business three times, for my part--twice from Keltest, once from CriticalFailure just now.

B. Dandelion
2019-04-07, 03:21 PM
Do you have any reason to believe they had any idea who TDO was, or what his relevance was? All we know is Soon knew, but we don't know when he figured it out/was granted the knowledge.

I don't, in fact. If you'll notice, I'm pointing out what I think is a hole in NerdyKris's suggestion that the Order of the Scribble fractured over a possible plan to work with the Dark One.


I've only seen the "prophecy" business three times, for my part--twice from Keltest, once from CriticalFailure just now.

It's probably because of Keltest that I'm thinking it's popular fanon, because it's somewhat fresh in my mind that I yelled at him for bringing it up again when I had told him it was wrong years ago and he changed the possible source to a book that hadn't been out the first time. But I would swear that I had seen it speculated about years before.

I found a couple of hits using the forum search:

Just a nitpick here. The Saphire Guard didn't embark on near-genocide simply because Goblins are Evil. After all, the attack we see in SoD is hundreds of miles away from Azure City, so you'd think they'd need more of an incentive than that.

And indeed they have one. It's in the form of some prophecy to the effect that a goblin wearing a crimsom cloak will be instrumental in destroying their gate. Attempting to prevent this, they hunt down every goblin they can find who wears such an item.


ETA: It looks like davidbofinger already made a similar point. (I usually read the entire thread before replying, but I figured no one would address this. So I was wrong.) But I'm going to leave this up because of the slight differences. The prophecy (which we don't know the exact text of) definitely says it's going to be a goblin wearing a red cloak, not just some unidentified goblin from that village. Which is why all the paladins gang up on the previous bearer in SoD.


When I saw the prophecy in Order of the stick, it is similar to prophecy telling sequence in Greek Epic.
E.G- Sapphire Guards attack red cloak's village because they fear that crimson mantled goblin is going to destroy Azure city, according to the prophecy. Result- Their city was captured by the same goblin in mantle cloak.
E.G- Prophecy says that Paris will cause the Troy to burn. His parents abandoned him and they found him again. Result- Paris kidnap Helen, fight with greeks and finally the city was burned by Wooden Horse.
My Point is The prophecy coming true even with or without intervention in the comic is similar to the one from the greek story.

I may have seen some mention of the idea on TV Tropes, too, since I spent a lot of time there.

Nith
2019-04-07, 03:30 PM
Hard to see how the disagreement could be related to the Dark One. While TDO seems to have existed before the rifts, and might have known about the Snarl in advance, the plan revolving the gates can't have been invented before the construction of the gates in the first place. Now we don't know exactly how long it took between the construction of the last gate and the disagreement but I really don't think it can be more than a month at most or so, probably considerably less.

What I find most likely is that the Sapphire Guard found out the significance of the Red cloak to the Goblin threat against the gates thorugh some magical means at a later stage. I don't recall, do any of the other Scribble members give any indication of knowing about the Red cloak at all?

NerdyKris
2019-04-07, 04:21 PM
If it's not clear, my point is that Lirian ignoring him should have been much less likely if the Scribblers had ever seriously contemplated working with the Dark One and his high priest. He should have been kind of a big deal if that had been the case, but he was obviously not deemed important in the slightest.

You're right. That puts a big hole in my theory that the rift had something to do with Thor's plan for working with the Dark One's high priest.

CriticalFailure
2019-04-07, 04:37 PM
Hard to see how the disagreement could be related to the Dark One. While TDO seems to have existed before the rifts, and might have known about the Snarl in advance, the plan revolving the gates can't have been invented before the construction of the gates in the first place. Now we don't know exactly how long it took between the construction of the last gate and the disagreement but I really don't think it can be more than a month at most or so, probably considerably less.

What I find most likely is that the Sapphire Guard found out the significance of the Red cloak to the Goblin threat against the gates thorugh some magical means at a later stage. I don't recall, do any of the other Scribble members give any indication of knowing about the Red cloak at all?

There’s no evidence of any of them knowing I don’t think.

according to Gin Jun orwhatever his name was, the SG didn’t know the mantle was important until sometime after they wiped out Redcloak’s village. And Lirian didn’t show any indication of knowing as was pointed out.

Basically there’s no indication that anyone has had a more in depth understanding of the situation than “a goblin in a red cloak wants to undo creation or something” as far as I can tell. The fact that O-Chul refers to goblins messing with something beyond their kind’s ken makes me think the SG understanding is basically that the goblins are trying to take the gates because they know it’s very powerful and think they can use it but don’t understand what they’re really dealing with.

Roland Itiative
2019-04-07, 08:31 PM
Durkon has likely already told them the plan. They were resting for hours, it wouldn't make sense to keep key information from them.

The Dark One predates the Order of the Scribble. It's likely that they were also given the same information Durkon was. We know that Soon set out on hunting down the bearer of the Crimson Mantle and killing them. This crusade clearly went off the rails into genocide over time. The question is why weren't Sapphire Guard

Attempting to capture the Dark One's high priest instead of killing them. We know they didn't know the mantle was an artifact, but they clearly intended to kill the high priest, not talk to him.

I think there's a good chance the schism was caused by an argument over how to properly handle the gates vs tracking down and allying with the Dark One's high priest. It fits the schism being primarily between Girard and Soon. A multi racial ranger vs a pure blood aristocrat. Kraagor's death might be linked to the Dark One, and Soon blames them for his death while Girard blames something Soon did.

I don't think the Scribblers had the same knowledge regarding The Dark One as Durkon now has. Thor mentions the Twelve Gods being split on what to do, but mentions Azure City as the reason, so we don't know what they as a group thought before that happened. But if the Twelve were always on camp "it's better not to deal with the Dark One", I could see them not ever mentioning the fourth quiddity at all to Soon. It would make more sense than saying "by the way, there's this fourth quiddity we could use to make the Gates better, but we don't want to, so just go hunt the high priest of the Dark One instead".

I like the idea of the previous worlds' existences being part of the reason for the schism of the Scribblers, though. It makes a ton of sense that Girard would resent the gods and their followers if he found out that they could turn their backs on creation on a whim, and the fact Soon turned his back on a teammate "for the greater good" would certainly rub salt on the wound.

CriticalFailure
2019-04-07, 09:05 PM
I doubt the rest of the Order of the Stick has been told yet either. I think we'll see all of their reactions to the idea of trying to talk to Redcloak when it happens. Haley and Belkar especially will be unhappy with doing anything besides filling him with sharp pointy objects.

understatement
2019-04-07, 09:37 PM
And how are they going to make him believe what Thor told Durkon anyway? There's no way of "showing" the concrete evidence.

CriticalFailure
2019-04-07, 11:00 PM
How are they going to make Redcloak believe it? I agree, it will probably be extremely difficult due to the lack of any evidence, Redcloak's predisposition not to trust the PC races, Redcloak's obsession with finishing the plan so that all the goblinoids he sacrificed weren't in vain, and the fact that he knows they will be doing whatever they can to thwart his plans and thus will expect trickery.

Maybe the information about TDO being at risk if this world ends will at least give him pause, but he has every reason not to believe them both on a logical level and an emotional level.

Fish
2019-04-08, 12:25 AM
Well, the problem so far as we, the Order, and the gods know is "hey this big Snarl thing will get loose and destroy the world." Solving the problem would be "hey we found a way to stop this big Snarl thing from getting loose and destroying the world."
I don't think that changes my reply. The Order of the Stick will carry on, where the Scribble did not, because of their character growth, and not because they have some magic double-secret plan to destroy the Snarl; and likewise I don't think that the absence of such a plan caused the Scribble to fall apart.


I agree something specifically happened. Probably involving closing the rifts with Kraagor inside and likely involving the unexpected presence of the world in the rift. I think one big question is when the world in the rifts came into existence. But it seems moderately likely that Kraagor ended up on the rift world and was abandoned. Or something. I don't know...
It's entirely possible that you're right. Personally, I don't consider it likely, if only because it doesn't resonate with the current-day plotline. I have a feeling that whatever backstory we hear for the Scribble is going to have some kind of relevance or similarity with what the Order of the Stick is going through. If the Scribble fell apart because of some purely technical or mechanical detail — this person was here, or there; the strategy was this spell, or that class feature — it won't have emotional resonance. That would just be ... a detail.

CriticalFailure
2019-04-08, 12:34 AM
It's entirely possible that you're right. Personally, I don't consider it likely, if only because it doesn't resonate with the current-day plotline. I have a feeling that whatever backstory we hear for the Scribble is going to have some kind of relevance or similarity with what the Order of the Stick is going through. If the Scribble fell apart because of some purely technical or mechanical detail — this person was here, or there; the strategy was this spell, or that class feature — it won't have emotional resonance. That would just be ... a detail.

If there was a situation where Kraagor was on the other side of the rift and still clearly visible and alive and they chose to close it anyways I think it could definitely resonate with the current plotlines and themes. Deciding to pull the trigger on the sealing spell in that situation isn't some mechanical detail, it's purely a judgement call weighing the importance of sealing the rifts when there's a clear moment of opportunity with refusing to abandon a friend. If there was a riftworld at the time and they chose to seal it with Kraagor looking at them from the other side it's not a mechanical detail causing the tension.

Peelee
2019-04-08, 07:31 AM
I don't think that changes my reply. The Order of the Stick will carry on, where the Scribble did not, because of their character growth, and not because they have some magic double-secret plan to destroy the Snarl; and likewise I don't think that the absence of such a plan caused the Scribble to fall apart.

You Stull never answered my actual question though - how does the fact that they're on the nth planet rather than the second planet change their desire to stop Xykon?

B. Dandelion
2019-04-08, 01:53 PM
By the way, does it change anything about our understanding of the Gates now that we know the Snarl has devoured billions of worlds in between now and the first world?

We were told back during the crayon exposition (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) that the gods could have recreated the world without the rifts, but since it would have required destroying the current world to do it, that plan was obviously not preferable. Now we know however that nothing the gods can create can contain the Snarl, and that rifts always will inevitably appear. The planet simply cannot hold back the Snarl because it lacks a fundamental essence. Thor's plan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html) is to close the rifts with four-color seals. But he says that new rifts will eventually appear, and intends to keep welding away as they show up every few thousand years.

So do the mortal-built Gates somehow surpass Thor's plan in efficacy, or do they run into the same issue of rifts opening in new places a few thousand years later?

CriticalFailure
2019-04-08, 02:19 PM
By the way, does it change anything about our understanding of the Gates now that we know the Snarl has devoured billions of worlds in between now and the first world?

We were told back during the crayon exposition (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) that the gods could have recreated the world without the rifts, but since it would have required destroying the current world to do it, that plan was obviously not preferable. Now we know however that nothing the gods can create can contain the Snarl, and that rifts always will inevitably appear. The planet simply cannot hold back the Snarl because it lacks a fundamental essence. Thor's plan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html) is to close the rifts with four-color seals. But he says that new rifts will eventually appear, and intends to keep welding away as they show up every few thousand years.

So do the mortal-built Gates somehow surpass Thor's plan in efficacy, or do they run into the same issue of rifts opening in new places a few thousand years later?

It's not mortal built gates, it's the quiddity. Red/blue/yellow are the colors the gods had to use when building the world and those three colors are what Lirian and Dorukan made the gates out of. Since the snarl has four, red/green/yellow/blue, it is "stronger" (according to the story literally more real) than the world and the gates due to having one more color than they do.

It's a little fuzzy but it seems cleric spells contain some of their god's quiddity since the god is basically giving them magic (I might be wrong; it could be that clerics can in special circumstances get spells to channel their deity's quiddity or something like that). Since The Dark One is a new god with a new quiddity, his clerics appear to be the only mortals capable of providing purple. Thor thinks gates with red/yellow/blue/purple would be able to contain the snarl because they'd be equal in quiddity. It's not really clear what the process is but Thor is saying that if they can close the rifts with 4 colors rather than 3 like Lirian and Dorukan used, that part where the rift has been sealed is expected to stay closed.

B. Dandelion
2019-04-08, 02:39 PM
It's not mortal built gates, it's the quiddity. Red/blue/yellow are the colors the gods had to use when building the world and those three colors are what Lirian and Dorukan made the gates out of. Since the snarl has four, red/green/yellow/blue, it is "stronger" (according to the story literally more real) than the world and the gates due to having one more color than they do.

Yes, I understand this. Most likely, the Order of the Scribble could not hold back the Snarl any more than the 3 pantheons could, because they had the same fundamental limitations. In which case, the very best they could do was to build the Gates which it is now suggested could only have worked for a few thousand years. Absolutely everything that they did amounted to simply buying the planet some time. That seems like a possibly relevant detail to figuring out what made them so angry--they knew even under ideal circumstances they had just delayed the inevitable.

Nith
2019-04-08, 02:48 PM
So do the mortal-built Gates somehow surpass Thor's plan in efficacy, or do they run into the same issue of rifts opening in new places a few thousand years later?

You raise a good point. I don't think we have any information on why, but given Thor's enthusiasm I think we can safely assume four-quiddity gates have advantages that regular gates don't. Maybe the current gates would spontaneously break at an earlier point? Or maybe 4Q gates would be physically indestructable by mortals, thus avoiding problems like the current situation.

So far we just don't know. I'm not sure we'll ever know, since there are mysteries unknown to the Gods and the Snarl might very well be dealt with permanently through some other means in the end.

mjasghar
2019-04-08, 07:02 PM
Well, the problem so far as we, the Order, and the gods know is "hey this big Snarl thing will get loose and destroy the world." Solving the problem would be "hey we found a way to stop this big Snarl thing from getting loose and destroying the world."

Except Rich has intimated that the Order won’t solve the Snarl issue - it’s the mcguffin and the (main) antagonists are xykon and redcloak

Peelee
2019-04-08, 07:49 PM
Except Rich has intimated that the Order won’t solve the Snarl issue - it’s the mcguffin and the (main) antagonists are xykon and redcloak

True, the main problem us Xykon and Redcloak, but the Snarl being the mcguffin has no bearing on whether or not the Order will solve it; the Death Star was the mcguffin in Star Wars, after all.

CriticalFailure
2019-04-08, 08:10 PM
It’s starting to sound like the order will have to indirectly solve the world’s snark problem while directly solving the red half of their own personal Xykon and Redcloak problem.

understatement
2019-04-08, 08:23 PM
Their world really does have a snark problem; everyone's doing it!

The Order believes by stopping Xykon they will save the world's existence -- but Xykon isn't the main problem.

CriticalFailure
2019-04-08, 09:24 PM
oops, well Redcloak is contributing to the world's snark problem.

As to the macguffin thing, the snarl ties things together by being the macguffin driving the main plot (save innocents/the world/Eugene I guess/etc by destroying Xykon, who is motivated by trying to get a gate to control the snarl) and what appears to be the biggest and most important sideplot (get the deities and sundry factions to cooperate in order to prevent this world from being destroyed). It seems likely that The Order will complete both of these quests, in that they will destroy Xykon and facilitate the necessary cooperation among those who need to work together without necessarily being involved with the actual negotiations/rituals/etc.

To me at least it seems more likely that at the end Redcloak's main role will be related to the cooperation plot line rather than as "most powerful lackey of Xykon" in the main plot. Everything that's been revealed about him trying to use Xykon and about The Dark One and the goblins and quiddity sets Redcloak up to be involved with that. And SOD explicitly established him as someone that has been entirely shaped by the conflicts around the snarl politics and the deities' lack of cooperation and other poor choices (lets make some humanoids to farm for XP); it's basically the story of why he is so deeply emotionally invested in completing the plan with Xykon.

I don't see why this would occur if his main role in the wrapping up of the story was going to be "the underling Xykon converses with."

dtilque
2019-04-08, 09:26 PM
Just FYI, the goblin prophecy thing is a very popular bit of fanon, but it has no basis in anything that's been either in the online strip or any of the bonus materials.

The Paladins in SoD knew that a goblin wearing a red cloak was a threat to their gate. Now maybe they found this out by some means that wasn't a prophecy, but I don't know what that would be.


Their world really does have a snark problem; everyone's doing it!.

"Just the place for a Snark! I have said it thrice:
What I tell you three times is true."

Squire Doodad
2019-04-08, 09:55 PM
You raise a good point. I don't think we have any information on why, but given Thor's enthusiasm I think we can safely assume four-quiddity gates have advantages that regular gates don't. Maybe the current gates would spontaneously break at an earlier point? Or maybe 4Q gates would be physically indestructable by mortals, thus avoiding problems like the current situation.

So far we just don't know. I'm not sure we'll ever know, since there are mysteries unknown to the Gods and the Snarl might very well be dealt with permanently through some other means in the end.

The the current gates will at some point break free, the gates have only been in place for half a century or so. A 4Q gate will potentially break, but this will not happen at nearly the same speed as the 3Q ones. The 3Q might last for millenia, but then 4Q will endure for millions of years.
What is interesting is what the Snarl's inability to be destroyed suggests: anything that is 4Q may be nearly impervious to anything 3Q, which means that the people who might seek to destroy the gates might somehow be able to corrupt them, but the gates themselves will be nearly invincible.
The issue that remains after this is simple: the planet itself is 3Q, and so is still vulnerable. The solution is simple as well- while the planet the cast lives on is largely doomed, if 4Q gates can be established, then they will last long enough for the Dark One to survive the interim period, and then you have 4Q worlds which will last an obscene amount of time before the Snarl begins to break through (rifts occurring hundreds of thousands if not millions of years after its creation, as opposed to a couple thousand). This is even assuming that the planet will actually be penetrable to the Snarl- its possible that after a few more rounds, the gods will have mastered accounting for 4 quiddities and be able to seal the Snarl almost permanently. Or maybe create a weapon capable of stopping it, or mortal heroes capable of felling it.

Aka-chan
2019-04-08, 10:14 PM
If there was a situation where Kraagor was on the other side of the rift and still clearly visible and alive and they chose to close it anyways I think it could definitely resonate with the current plotlines and themes. Deciding to pull the trigger on the sealing spell in that situation isn't some mechanical detail, it's purely a judgement call weighing the importance of sealing the rifts when there's a clear moment of opportunity with refusing to abandon a friend. If there was a riftworld at the time and they chose to seal it with Kraagor looking at them from the other side it's not a mechanical detail causing the tension.

Also, Roy's Deva said that his temporary abandonment of Elan would have kept him out of Celestia if he hadn't realized he'd done wrong and reversed course. And Durkon's choice not to abandon Belkar kick-started the latter's transition from faked character development to real character development. So if the Scribblers did make a choice to abandon Kraagor on Riftworld, that would contrast with choices the Stickies have made and which had major character implications. The Stickies' "leave no man or woman behind" ethic could be a relevant and meaningful difference between the two parties.

Nith
2019-04-09, 12:10 AM
The the current gates will at some point break free, the gates have only been in place for half a century or so. A 4Q gate will potentially break, but this will not happen at nearly the same speed as the 3Q ones. The 3Q might last for millenia, but then 4Q will endure for millions of years.

That's basically one of the possible reasons I suggested. We don't know this though it seems reasonable.

mjasghar
2019-04-09, 06:08 AM
True, the main problem us Xykon and Redcloak, but the Snarl being the mcguffin has no bearing on whether or not the Order will solve it; the Death Star was the mcguffin in Star Wars, after all.

In rotj the second Death Star is also the mcguffin but it is dealt with by the second stringers whilst the main protagonist deals with the main antagonist - and that confrontation itself is the heart of the story with regards to redemption

Goblin_Priest
2019-04-09, 07:33 AM
By the way, does it change anything about our understanding of the Gates now that we know the Snarl has devoured billions of worlds in between now and the first world?

We were told back during the crayon exposition (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) that the gods could have recreated the world without the rifts, but since it would have required destroying the current world to do it, that plan was obviously not preferable. Now we know however that nothing the gods can create can contain the Snarl, and that rifts always will inevitably appear. The planet simply cannot hold back the Snarl because it lacks a fundamental essence. Thor's plan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html) is to close the rifts with four-color seals. But he says that new rifts will eventually appear, and intends to keep welding away as they show up every few thousand years.

So do the mortal-built Gates somehow surpass Thor's plan in efficacy, or do they run into the same issue of rifts opening in new places a few thousand years later?

Well, right now, the Snarl's prison is weaker than he is, it's 3 colors. The patches also use the same weak 3 color solution.

Presuming that 4 colors is enough to stop a 4 color snarl, the new gates won't break. But the OG content of the world remains itself vulnerable. It's like low quality clothes. You can fix them with a solid patch, but wear will still keep making more holes around the patches.

This world could theoretically go on for a very long time, allowing "evolution" to occur. Is it a permanent fix in itself? No, the world is still made of weak fabric. However, they need TDO for the fourth color. And before being able to involve him in weaving new world fabric, instead of just the patching, they need him to grow much more first. Build up strength, build up reserves.

I think that, in essence, is how Thor's plan leads to a permanent fix. "Patch things up for at least long enough for the Dark One to be able to survive the interlude between worlds that has no worship, so that at that point if the world is undone, then they'll have preserved his precious quiddity and will be able to call upon him to make a new and more solid world".

KorvinStarmast
2019-04-09, 10:54 AM
What Aka-Chan said. *golf clap*

B. Dandelion
2019-04-09, 11:55 AM
The Paladins in SoD knew that a goblin wearing a red cloak was a threat to their gate. Now maybe they found this out by some means that wasn't a prophecy, but I don't know what that would be.

The paladins in SoD don't mention anything about a threat to Azure City specifically. The goblins are a threat to "the foundation of creation itself".

Soon along with the other members of the Order of the Scribble fought the first Bearer of the Crimson Mantle and his army at the rift in elven lands that would become Lirian's Gate. So he knew that the goblins were one of many groups that had tried to use the rifts or the Snarl for evil purposes. When he founded the Sapphire Guard, he sent his paladins out to quash any such groups that remained. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html)

We don't need a prophecy to explain how the paladins knew what they did, which demonstrably hasn't been that much. They knew enough to regard the goblins and the red cloak as a threat to to the world by way of the Snarl, so that made them valid targets for a Gate's defenders. It's possible that there was one and we'll find out about it later, but it hasn't been in the comic so far, and it's looking less and less likely to ever come up.

Quebbster
2019-04-09, 12:45 PM
Soon along with the other members of the Order of the Scribble fought the first Bearer of the Crimson Mantle and his army at the rift in elven lands that would become Lirian's Gate. So he knew that the goblins were one of many groups that had tried to use the rifts or the Snarl for evil purposes. When he founded the Sapphire Guard, he sent his paladins out to quash any such groups that remained. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html)
Did not know Soon was at Lirian's rift. Where did that happen?

Nith
2019-04-09, 01:33 PM
.
Soon along with the other members of the Order of the Scribble fought the first Bearer of the Crimson Mantle and his army at the rift in elven lands that would become Lirian's Gate. So he knew that the goblins were one of many groups that had tried to use the rifts or the Snarl for evil purposes. When he founded the Sapphire Guard, he sent his paladins out to quash any such groups that remained. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html)


You're right, I had forgotten about that, though it should probably be spoilered since it's in Start of Darkness.

Nevertheless, I suspect the Sapphire Guard came into contact with the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle at a later point as well. Hard to see why they would put significance on the red cloak itself otherwise. But I very much doubt we'll ever get any explicit information about it, it doesn't really matter.

B. Dandelion
2019-04-09, 02:10 PM
Did not know Soon was at Lirian's rift. Where did that happen?

Firstly on his tragic vacation with his wife. Later all of the Order of the Scribble were at all of the rifts. "Their final adventures together led them to seal all five of the rifts, trapping the Snarl forever in its timeless jail." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html).

The lore of the Crimson Mantle in SoD goes into more detail. The main thing is that the only rift the goblins knew about (until Redcloak and Xykon came along) was the one in elven lands.


Redcloak: Being unable to act directly in elven lands, the Dark One created the Crimson Mantle, an artifact of great power, and gave it to his high priest.


Redcloak: He commanded his priest to go forth and seize the rift, to determine whether it could be used to further the goblin cause.


Redcloak: But their efforts were thwarted, first by a band of adventurers—
And here the goblins are shown being killed by the Order of the Scribble. Soon isn't in that particular panel, but there's no reason to think he specifically skipped out on that fight. Perhaps he would have been a poor fit to the mood set otherwise, as it shows the Order of the Scribble being quite playful and cavalier about the whole goblin-slaying business.

Redcloak: —and years later, by an order of paladins native to Azure City.
With the panel an exact copy of the goblin-killing panel in 277 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html). So it goes straight from the Order of the Scribble killing goblins at Lirian's rift to the Sapphire Guard hunting down goblins years later.

Quebbster
2019-04-09, 02:24 PM
Guess it's time to reread SoD again.

dtilque
2019-04-10, 03:31 AM
The Paladins attacking RC's village were explicitly hunting the goblin wearing the red cloak. They were some 1000 miles away from their home in Azure City. They did not know the cloak was an Artifact, just that someone wearing a cloak of that color was a "threat to the foundations of creation" (which almost certainly meant a threat to their Gate, at least in their minds, since that's what they're sworn to protect). How did they find that fact out? Yes, Soon had seen a party of goblins try to take control of Lirian's Gate and that party included a goblin wearing a red mantle. But one event like that is not enough, or at least should not be enough, for Soon to come to that conclusion. The fact that Paladins from Azure City later kept attacking and killing the current CM-wearer shows that Soon's somehow already learned about it, not evidence to support a guess that that person is a threat.

So tell me: How did Soon learn the Wearer of the CM was a such a major Threat if it wasn't a prophecy?

B. Dandelion
2019-04-10, 05:32 AM
The Paladins attacking RC's village were explicitly hunting the goblin wearing the red cloak. They were some 1000 miles away from their home in Azure City. They did not know the cloak was an Artifact, just that someone wearing a cloak of that color was a "threat to the foundations of creation" (which almost certainly meant a threat to their Gate, at least in their minds, since that's what they're sworn to protect). How did they find that fact out? Yes, Soon had seen a party of goblins try to take control of Lirian's Gate and that party included a goblin wearing a red mantle. But one event like that is not enough, or at least should not be enough, for Soon to come to that conclusion. The fact that Paladins from Azure City later kept attacking and killing the current CM-wearer shows that Soon's somehow already learned about it, not evidence to support a guess that that person is a threat.

So tell me: How did Soon learn the Wearer of the CM was a such a major Threat if it wasn't a prophecy?

Don't you think it's a bit of a leap to go from "they needed more information" to "and the source of that information must therefore be a prophecy--a very specific prophecy that a goblin in a red cloak would destroy Azure City"? Especially given that said prophecy has never been mentioned before now? Is there anything that even hints at such a thing existing other than the need to fill in the gaps?

A goblin priest in a red cloak raised an army and tried to seize a rift. Soon didn't know all the details, sure, but he had the motive to find out more and the resources to spend on investigating. Capturing and interrogating a few goblins could have yielded up information like the red cloak being the badge of office for the guy who has some kind of plan from god -- do they need a lot more than that?

You suggest that to the paladins, the threat to creation mentioned pretty much just means the threat to their own Gate. But it seems kind of striking how they don't focus so much on Azure City itself, or mention any kind of looming threat to it specifically because of the Mantle. It's even more glaring in Good Deeds Gone Unpunished.
Gin-Jun is so totally focused on the Mantle and its (in this context somewhat abstract) threat to the world that he's taking actions that actually put Azure City itself in jeopardy. If they'd had that kind of prophetic doom hanging over their city and all the other paladins knew about it, it seems like the kind of thing that would have come up in the climax, as it would have made his total obsession with the Mantle look more reasonable. Yes, we have to go to war with the hobgoblins, but it's better to take that risk than to face the guaranteed destruction that awaits us if the Mantle isn't found.

I don't hate the idea of a prophecy really, I'm in this argument mostly because I don't like misinformation. It's simply not accurate at this time to say there was some kind of prophecy about Azure City's destruction coming at the hands of a goblin in a red cloak. At least for now, that's just a theory. But while I'm here, it seems unlikely and I don't know what it would really add to the story.

hroþila
2019-04-10, 05:43 AM
Note that aside from Redcloak's immediate predecessor and that bearer of the Crimson Mantle shown in SoD and The Crayons of Time, the Sapphire Guard killed at least another bearer. Plenty of room and opportunity to learn a bit about the Plan through mundane means.

Peelee
2019-04-10, 07:59 AM
The Paladins attacking RC's village were explicitly hunting the goblin wearing the red cloak. They were some 1000 miles away from their home in Azure City. They did not know the cloak was an Artifact, just that someone wearing a cloak of that color was a "threat to the foundations of creation" (which almost certainly meant a threat to their Gate, at least in their minds, since that's what they're sworn to protect). How did they find that fact out? Yes, Soon had seen a party of goblins try to take control of Lirian's Gate and that party included a goblin wearing a red mantle. But one event like that is not enough, or at least should not be enough, for Soon to come to that conclusion. The fact that Paladins from Azure City later kept attacking and killing the current CM-wearer shows that Soon's somehow already learned about it, not evidence to support a guess that that person is a threat.

So tell me: How did Soon learn the Wearer of the CM was a such a major Threat if it wasn't a prophecy?

Capture a goblin alive, use Paladin spells like Zone of Truth or Discern Lies while interrogating, badaboom.

Kish
2019-04-10, 08:58 AM
I'd just like to point out that saying that something unsupported is the case unless someone else can prove that it is not is an utter failure of logic.

Fyraltari
2019-04-10, 09:30 AM
They thought the Crimson Mantle was a marker of rank just like the brown cloaks, white cloaks and blue cloaks. They knew to attack the goblin wearing the red cloak because after killing the previous two goblin high priest it would have been incerdibly dumb not to infer that the goblin wearing an indentical cloak was their successors.

Edit: their mistake was in assuming that the cloak was replaceable, much like the official regalia that goes with most positons of authority.

CriticalFailure
2019-04-10, 10:43 AM
They thought the Crimson Mantle was a marker of rank just like the brown cloaks, white cloaks and blue cloaks. They knew to attack the goblin wearing the red cloak because after killing the previous two goblin high priest it would have been incerdibly dumb not to infer that the goblin wearing an indentical cloak was their successors.

Edit: their mistake was in assuming that the cloak was replaceable, much like the official regalia that goes with most positons of authority.


This was basically stated explicitly in Good Deeds Gone Unpunished; I think it's fair to take it as evidence that the Sapphire guard have a pretty basic understanding of what's going on with the goblins. They know what they need to know to do their job (goblins, lead by some guy in a red cloak, are trying to get control of a gate, and this puts the fabric of reality at risk) but they don't have any additional understanding that would be helpful.

It seems like the Sapphire Guard and other gate protectors basically don't have any reason to think that the goblins are any more significant than any other group trying to use the rifts/gates for whatever purpose. The Dark ONe's PlanTM seems to be a decently well guarded goblin secret, and they have no way to know about the many ruined worlds or the quiddity issues that make The Dark One so important.

Rrmcklin
2019-04-11, 02:10 AM
Also, Roy's Deva said that his temporary abandonment of Elan would have kept him out of Celestia if he hadn't realized he'd done wrong and reversed course. And Durkon's choice not to abandon Belkar kick-started the latter's transition from faked character development to real character development. So if the Scribblers did make a choice to abandon Kraagor on Riftworld, that would contrast with choices the Stickies have made and which had major character implications. The Stickies' "leave no man or woman behind" ethic could be a relevant and meaningful difference between the two parties.

Belkar was already on his way to real character development before that; no way he would have saved Enjor and Ganju otherwise, and that was before Durkon's sacrifice.

Rrmcklin
2019-04-11, 02:16 AM
I'd just like to point out that saying that something unsupported is the case unless someone else can prove that it is not is an utter failure of logic.

Can I sig this? It succulently states one of my biggest peeves, that for some reason I can never put into few words.

Edit: Also, sorry about the double post.

Fyraltari
2019-04-11, 02:23 AM
Can I sig this? It succulently states one of my biggest peeves, that for some reason I can never put into few words.

Edit: Also, sorry about the double post.

It’s called ‘‘shifting the burden of proof’’.

Kish
2019-04-11, 08:08 AM
Can I sig this? It succulently states one of my biggest peeves, that for some reason I can never put into few words.
Certainly, go ahead.

B. Dandelion
2019-04-11, 10:42 AM
It succulently states one of my biggest peeves,

I, too, am a frequent admirer of Kish's plantlike way with words. :smallbiggrin:

Peelee
2019-04-11, 10:47 AM
I, too, am a frequent admirer of Kish's plantlike way with words. :smallbiggrin:

I've wanted to sig tree or four bits myself at times.