Ranking of Devils 5e

[Whiskeyjack8044]

Can anyone give me a ranking of Devils from Lemmures to Asmodeus?

Also, how litigious are Imps? I have an Idea to have a character summon a devil as a lawyer and make sure a treaty is Iron Clad.

[Millstone85]

Can anyone give me a ranking of Devils from Lemmures to Asmodeus?Monster Manual, page 67, Infernal Hierarchy.

[Unoriginal]

Also, how litigious are Imps?

What do you mean by "litigious"?


Monster Manual, page 67, Infernal Hierarchy.

TBF it doesn't include the devils from later books. Do those matter to you, OP?

[Whiskeyjack8044]

What do you mean by "litigious"?



TBF it doesn't include the devils from later books. Do those matter to you, OP?

How lawyer-y are they compared to other Devils.

And no, I just flat out missed that section of my MM. Thanks guys.

[Unoriginal]

How lawyer-y are they compared to other Devils.

Just as much, at least.

They're better at it than less intelligent/wise/charismatic devils, and worse than more intelligent/wise/charismatic ones, but it's a question of capacity, not of tendency.

Arguably they're more lawyer-y than some that focus on combat. But that could also depend on which usual duties they are tasked with.


Why are you asking?

[Whiskeyjack8044]

Because if I had one as a familiar I'd use it as a legal advisor, if that was feasible.

[Unoriginal]

Because if I had one as a familiar I'd use it as a legal advisor, if that was feasible.

As in, one provided by the Pact of the Chain?


Also, you really would trust a devil to not **** you over on a treaty?

[Lunali]

As in, one provided by the Pact of the Chain?


Also, you really would trust a devil to not **** you over on a treaty?

No, but I'd probably let one look at a treaty to see if I missed something.

[Yora]

Planescape had a promition chart for different types of devils. But it wasn't a simple progression of ranks but more of a convoluted flowchart of possible career paths towards becoming a pit fiend. In some cases you first had to move to a rank lower than your current one before you can can skip up by another two ranks.

Though I think in general, the heirarchy went like this:
1. Nupperibo
2. Lemure
3. Spinagon
4. Abishai
5. Kocrachon
6. Barbazu
7. Erinyes
8. Osyluth
9. Hamatula
10. Cornugon
11. Amnizu
12. Gelugon
13. Pit Fiend

Imps and kythons are devils, but not baatezu, so they don't have a rank.

[Gydian]

Where do Narzugon fit into this list?

[MaxWilson]

Planescape had a promition chart for different types of devils. But it wasn't a simple progression of ranks but more of a convoluted flowchart of possible career paths towards becoming a pit fiend. In some cases you first had to move to a rank lower than your current one before you can can skip up by another two ranks.

Though I think in general, the heirarchy went like this:
1. Nupperibo
2. Lemure
3. Spinagon
4. Abishai
5. Kocrachon
6. Barbazu
7. Erinyes
8. Osyluth
9. Hamatula
10. Cornugon
11. Amnizu
12. Gelugon
13. Pit Fiend

Imps and kythons are devils, but not baatezu, so they don't have a rank.

Can I just say briefly here that I'm really annoyed with 5E's Abishai for being uberpowerful fiends almost on par with Pit Fiends (in the case of red abishai), instead of low-level peons like they should be.

At the same time I'm also just annoyed in general with 5E's Baatezu for being weak and boring and having few strategic abilities. In AD&D (2nd), all Baatezu except for lemures, nupperibo, and spinagons can cast Advanced Illusion (think: Major Image), Animate Dead, Charm Person, Infravision, Know Alignment, Suggestion, and Teleport Without Error at will, which makes even a single low-level Black Abishai with 17 HP a threat to be taken seriously.

[JellyPooga]

Can I just say briefly here that I'm really annoyed with 5E's Abishai for being uberpowerful fiends almost on par with Pit Fiends (in the case of red abishai), instead of low-level peons like they should be.

At the same time I'm also just annoyed in general with 5E's Baatezu for being weak and boring and having few strategic abilities. In AD&D (2nd), all Baatezu except for lemures, nupperibo, and spinagons can cast Advanced Illusion (think: Major Image), Animate Dead, Charm Person, Infravision, Know Alignment, Suggestion, and Teleport Without Error at will, which makes even a single low-level Black Abishai with 17 HP a threat to be taken seriously.

It's not just the Baatezu, to be fair. Fiends in general (and other Planars) are somewhat lacklustre compared to their earlier edition counterparts.

[Millstone85]

Can I just say briefly here that I'm really annoyed with 5E's Abishai for being uberpowerful fiends almost on par with Pit Fiends (in the case of red abishai), instead of low-level peons like they should be.But abishai are the guards of Tiamat. I thought it made sense for them to be powerful.

[MaxWilson]

But abishai are the guards of Tiamat. I thought it made sense for them to be powerful.

That's a 5E thing. Originally they were part of regular Baatezu hierarchy.

[Millstone85]

That's a 5E thing. Originally they were part of regular Baatezu hierarchy.Had they nothing to do with dragons, then?

[Warder]

Interesting. My first experience with abishai came from Planescape: Torment in which they were pretty strong (so worth a hefty chunk of experience if you killed them in the streets of Sigil).

[Gydian]

This isn't a complete list, is a more comprehensive list exist somewhere?

[MaxWilson]

Had they nothing to do with dragons, then?

Nope, nothing except being vaguely reptilian in appearance and having three colors (black, green, red, red being strongest). They're more like gargoyles. They all have claw/claw/sting routine with a poisonous tail stinger (save or die), regenerate 1 HP per round unless damaged by holy water/holy weapons, are immune to magic 30% of the time, and often command troops of lemures. In addition to the normal Baatezu spells, they can cast Change Self at will and so also function as infiltrators if needed.


Interesting. My first experience with abishai came from Planescape: Torment in which they were pretty strong (so worth a hefty chunk of experience if you killed them in the streets of Sigil).

In AD&D, having 4-6 hit dice and 18-30ish HP does make them pretty strong (almost as tough as trolls or vampires), and like most AD&D 2nd edition outer planar monsters they are worth enormous amounts of XP (21,500 to 26,500 XP). But they're still at the bottom of the Baatezu hierarchy because all the other Baatezu are stronger, except for lemures/spinagons/nupperibo.

2nd edition also has more developed lore. E.g. 5E presents osyluths (bone devils) as just another stat block with a polearm, making them extremely boring, but 2nd edition tells you about the osyluth's unique traits: they are a combination of social (in)justice warriors and secret police.


Habitat/Society: Osyluths have a special place in the Nine Hells. They are the only baatezu to have power over other baatezu of higher station than themselves. They are the "police" of the Nine Hells, constantly roaming the various layers and observing the actions of other baatezu, ensuring they act in a proper baatezuish manner. If they catch any discrepancy in a baatezu, an osyluth has the power to send it into the Pit of Flame where the offending baatezu is tormented for 101 days. After the torture the offending baatezu is returned to its former position. Osyluths have this power over any other baatezu save for the mighty pit fiends, who are above the discipline of the osyluths.

Because the osyluths are charged with the discipline of other baatezu, they are absolutely loyal in every way, never stepping out of line or doing anything that is against the nature of baatezu. But with this power comes danger. Any baatezu that has the opportunity to destroy an osyluth without being discovered will likely do so. If caught in this act, however, the offending baatezu is instantly reduced to marked lemure status. These marked lemures are never allowed to advance beyond their station and are particularly hated by all baatezu.

Once per century, 100 osyluths meet with the Dark Eight to select which gelugons will be advanced to pit fiend status.

[Millstone85]

Nope, nothing except being vaguely reptilian in appearance and having three colors (black, green, red, red being strongest). They're more like gargoyles. They all have claw/claw/sting routine with a poisonous tail stinger (save or die), regenerate 1 HP per round unless damaged by holy water/holy weapons, are immune to magic 30% of the time, and often command troops of lemures. In addition to the normal Baatezu spells, they can cast Change Self at will and so also function as infiltrators if needed.I see. So the abishai is yet another 5e creature that could be cool on its own but has stolen the name of a much different monster from previous editions.

[gloryblaze]

This isn't a complete list, is a more comprehensive list exist somewhere?

Descent into Avernus updated the hierarchy chart with the MToF devils, if that's what you're asking for:


Infernal Hierarchy
Least Devils
1. Lemure
2. Nupperibo

Lesser Devils
3. Imp
4. Spined devil
5. Bearded devil
6. Merregon
7. Barbed devil
8. Chain devil
9. Bone devil

Greater Devils
10. Orthon
11. Horned devil
12. Erinyes
13. Narzugon
14. Ice devil
15. Amnizu
16. Pit fiend

Archdevils
17. Duke or duchess
18. Archduke or archduchess

[Unoriginal]

This thread is from 2019.

[Gydian]

Descent into Avernus updated the hierarchy chart with the MToF devils, if that's what you're asking for:

THANK YOU, thank you so much.

[MaxWilson]

Descent into Avernus updated the hierarchy chart with the MToF devils, if that's what you're asking for:

Infernal Hierarchy
Least Devils
1. Lemure
2. Nupperibo

Lesser Devils
3. Imp
4. Spined devil
5. Bearded devil
6. Merregon
7. Barbed devil
8. Chain devil
9. Bone devil

Greater Devils
10. Orthon
11. Horned devil
12. Erinyes
13. Narzugon
14. Ice devil
15. Amnizu
16. Pit fiend

Archdevils
17. Duke or duchess
18. Archduke or archduchess

Compare that to the 2nd edition rankings:

Greater baatezu: pit fiend, gelugon (ice), cornugon (horned), amnizu
Lesser baatezu: hamatula (barbed), osyluth (bone), erinyes, barbazu (bearded), abishai
Least: nupperibo, spinagon (spined) [and lemures don't even make the list at all. It's 'not uncommon' for an army of 10,000 lemures in Avernus to be led by a single nupperibo]

It's interesting that (1) Erinyes are one of only handful of Baatezu to keep their 2nd edition name in 5E (along with Amnizu and Pit Fiends and Nupperibos), and (2) 5E promoted them from Lesser to Greater Baatezu.

[Millstone85]

This thread is from 2019.I noticed that, but I was really into the new turn of the conversation.


Descent into Avernus updated the hierarchy chart with the MToF devils, if that's what you're asking for:

Infernal Hierarchy
Least Devils
1. Lemure
2. NupperiboNot the opposite? In MToF, a quote from the titular character claims that becoming a nupperibo is a demotion from lemure, brought upon souls devoid of ambition.

[MaxWilson]

I noticed that, but I was really into the new turn of the conversation.

Not the opposite? In MToF, a quote from the titular character claims that becoming a nupperibo is a demotion from lemure, brought upon souls devoid of ambition.

In AD&D (2nd), nupperibos have a higher status than lemures despite both being mindless (one nupperibo commonly leads an army of 10,000 lemures), but advancement into a spinagon can only happen if they are demoted to lemure first, which can happen spontaneously 1% of the time a nupperibo is "killed".

It's explicitly unknown why things are set up this way, but perhaps one clue lies in the fact that mortal souls that are only moderately evil turn into nupperibos on death instead of lemures.

[Millstone85]

In AD&D (2nd), nupperibos have a higher status than lemures despite both being mindless (one nupperibo commonly leads an army of 10,000 lemures), but advancement into a spinagon can only happen if they are demoted to lemure first, which can happen spontaneously 1% of the time a nupperibo is "killed".

It's explicitly unknown why things are set up this way, but perhaps one clue lies in the fact that mortal souls that are only moderately evil turn into nupperibos on death instead of lemures.IIRC, it was said that nupperibos are to ancient Baatorians what lemures are to modern Baatezu. Thus, if a damned soul was allowed to advance directly from nupperibo to a higher form, it would not become an imp, a spinagon or any of the devils we know, but a specimen of Baator's original population. Which is something Asmodeus and his court really really really do not want.

But none of that works with 5e Mordenkainen describing a nupperibo as a demoted lemure.

[MaxWilson]

IIRC, it was said that nupperibos are to ancient Baatorians what lemures are to modern Baatezu. Thus, if a damned soul was allowed to advance directly from nupperibo to a higher form, it would not become an imp, a spinagon or any of the devils we know, but a specimen of Baator's original population. Which is something Asmodeus and his court really really really do not want.

I don't see that anywhere in MC8, and Asmodeus isn't even a thing (Baator is ruled by the Dark Eight, who are Pit Fiends). Maybe you are thinking of some later retcon?

[JackPhoenix]

I don't see that anywhere in MC8, and Asmodeus isn't even a thing (Baator is ruled by the Dark Eight, who are Pit Fiends). Maybe you are thinking of some later retcon?

I'm not sure what's MC8, but it's from Fiendish Codex 2 from 3.5.

[MaxWilson]

I'm not sure what's MC8, but it's from Fiendish Codex 2 from 3.5.

MC8 is the Outer Planes Appendix to the Monstrous Compendium (AD&D 2), where all the baatezu lore originated.

[Naanomi]

I'm not sure what's MC8, but it's from Fiendish Codex 2 from 3.5.
It was also in Tales of the Infinite Staircase, and... 2e's 'Planes of Law' and 'Guide to Hell'

[MaxWilson]

It was also in Tales of the Infinite Staircase, and... 2e's 'Planes of Law' and 'Guide to Hell'

Do you have a page number? I own Planes of Law and I did a search for "nupperibo" but found only three references, none of them saying anything about why nupperibos cannot advance without returning to lemure form.

I don't see it in Guide to Hell either. In fact, it says, "The real problem with killing devils on the Prime Material is that they don't stay dead. Baatezu slain outside Hell reform in the Pit as nupperibos. In theory, they must then fight their way back up to their old position. In practice, most powerful devils have contingency plans to hasten their ascension (usually loyal lieutenants who help support them and restore them to their positions in short order). While even this process is likely to take a number of years, the fact is that devils live a long time and they know how to hold a grudge." This ties nupperibo deeply into the baatezu ecology, instead of making them a vestigial offshoot of an old ecology.

I don't own Tales of the Infinite Staircase.

[Naanomi]

I don't, I just remember that book talked about ancient baatorians somewhere... maybe not? It has been a while since I did lore dives in those books. Note that Dogai/Assassin Devils are also implied to be ancient baatorians in various sources, and maybe Baalphegor?

EDIT: Found a source list someone posted in another Planescape forum:
Elder Evils, pp.144-148
Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss, pg.107
Faces of Evil: The Fiends, pp.12-14
Hellbound: The Blood War - War Games, pp.74-75
Manual of the Planes (3e), pp.121-122
Tales from the Infinite Staircase, pg.127
The Inner Planes, pg.72
The Lost City
Planes of Law
Book of Vile Darkness

[MaxWilson]

I don't, I just remember that book talked about ancient baatorians somewhere... maybe not? It has been a while since I did lore dives in those books. Note that Dogai/Assassin Devils are also implied to be ancient baatorians in various sources

EDIT: Found a source list someone posted in another Planescape forum:
Elder Evils, pp.144-148
Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss, pg.107
Faces of Evil: The Fiends, pp.12-14
Hellbound: The Blood War - War Games, pp.74-75
Manual of the Planes (3e), pp.121-122
Tales from the Infinite Staircase, pg.127
The Inner Planes, pg.72
The Lost City

Interesting.

Inner Planes p 72 doesn't say anything about baatezu at all, just the Plane of Ice. (It does mention some kuo-toa legends about ancient Sleepers buried within the ice, which might be how it wound up in your list.)

War Games pp. 74-75 says almost nothing concrete, just, "Before the baatezu inhabited Baator, the plane was home to beings even older than the fiends. It's wrong to call the original residents "creatures," really, because they're actually essences of powers and beliefs from an unimaginably ancient age. The beings still lie scattered about Baator, seeping through the substance of the layers and the minds of the denizens, their presence virtually unknown and unknowable. Occasionally, though, they take material form in Maladomini, drawn for some mysterious reason to the catacombs beneath the empty burgs of the layer. One such entity - the "vortex" shape on the map - sleeps in this cavern." Still nothing about nupperibos.

The jackpot is Faces of Evil: The Fiends, pp.12-14, where an unreliable narrator Rezzik Tam first relates three conflicting accounts of Baatezu origins (Baatezu say they came first, Tanar'ri say they came first and Baatezu split off from them, Yugoloths claim they are they actual source) and then gives his own version, which is that souls turn into Abyssal larvae and naturally evolve into nupperibos, but that the Baatezu hijack that process and hijack a dozen larvae out of every 100,000 or so into lemures, and that they go around forcibly changing other nupperibos into lemures. It's an interesting story even though it's obviously false (if it were true they'd destroy larvae that they didn't lemurify, and they'd immediately convert nupperibos as well instead of leaving them until they naturally changed into lemures, 1% of the time)--but a DM could decide that there's a kernel of truth to it anyway.

I don't own the other books, they seem to be mostly 3E stuff.

[Naanomi]

I don't own the other books, they seem to be mostly 3E stuff.
Hellbound is that big 2e five book boxed set

Tales of the Infinite Staircase is a 2e adventure that is tied to the 'For Duty and Deity' mega-adventure path

The Lost City is a 1e Mystara adventure that introduced Zargon, who has been called an ancient Baatorian in later material

[MaxWilson]

Hellbound is that big 2e five book boxed set

I know. I wrote this about it:

War Games pp. 74-75 says almost nothing concrete, just, "Before the baatezu inhabited Baator, the plane was home to beings even older than the fiends. It's wrong to call the original residents "creatures," really, because they're actually essences of powers and beliefs from an unimaginably ancient age. The beings still lie scattered about Baator, seeping through the substance of the layers and the minds of the denizens, their presence virtually unknown and unknowable. Occasionally, though, they take material form in Maladomini, drawn for some mysterious reason to the catacombs beneath the empty burgs of the layer. One such entity - the "vortex" shape on the map - sleeps in this cavern." Still nothing about nupperibos.

[Millstone85]

I do not own any of these books. I must have been remembering a previous thread.